#asoiaf mythology parallels

[clytemnaestraes]

Sansa and Arya + Sun and Moon parallels in Norse Mythology

In Norse mythology, Sol and Mani are the personifications of the Sun and the Moon respectively.

The sun, the sister of the moon, from the south

No knowledge she had where her home should be,

The moon knew not what might was his

The stars knew not where their stations were. 

from Voluspa, the creation epic

The parallels between Sansa and Sol:

Links to the south

The sun [...] from the south

“Sansa would shine in the south, Catelyn thought...” — Catelyn II, AGOT

Loss of identity

No knowledge where her home should be

“A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here.” — Sansa VII, ASOS

The parallel between Arya and Mani:

Insecurity and low self esteem

The moon knew not what might was his

“Sansa had everything. Sansa was two years older; maybe by the time Arya had been born, there had been nothing left. Often it felt that way.”  — Arya I, AGOT

However, both sisters assert their identity and begin to realise their respective strengths as the series progresses.

They also draw strength and are guided by the memory of their parents and their stark identity.

Vafthruthnismol introduces us to Sol and Mani's father, who gave them purpose

Mundilferi is he who begat the moon,

And fathered the flaming sun

The round of heaven each day they run,

To tell the time for men.

Most notably, Sol and Mani are chased by wolves called Skoll and Hati

Skoll is the wolf [that] Follows the glittering god, And [...] Hati, awaits The burning bride of heaven.

from Grimnismal

insp | source of quotes

[ame-tsuchi]

Did George R.R. Martin reference Shintō mythology? Or:

Parallel between A Song of Ice and Fire and Shintō mythology

On the one hand, Daenerys walks into her husband's funeral pyre after having given birth not too long ago and the magic of maegi Mirri Maz Duur is said to have birthed the three little dragons that Daeny considers her children.

On the other hand, to prove her husband Ninigi that she is pregnant with his child, Konohana Sakuyabime employs the truth ritual ukehi (誓占) to lock herself up in a birthing hut and set it on fire when she is about to give birth. From the ashes she returns unharmed, together with her three newborn sons.

Sources: A Game of Thrones (by George R.R. Martin), Kojiki (German translation by Klaus Antoni)

[queerquaintrelle]

Arya Stark Week 2024: (mythological) parallels

Arya Stark paralleled by Freya / Freyja (Norse and Icelandic mythology): fierce warriors and downright scary in their bravery at times. Hold life and death in their hands (metaphorically or literally), a 'girls girl' and supportive of her sister Sansa and her other siblings and her mother Catelyn Tully Stark. She is not interested in comparing herself to others, doesn't view other women as competition, and is deeply compassionate despite the ability to inspire deep and long-lasting terror.

[aphemera]

how did odysseus and telemachus even come to be associated with wolves

[dr3adlady]

Robert and Cersei have always reminded me of Zeus and Hera. The parallels are insane. Robert & Zeus both seized the power as a young man, after a majestic battle with the Targaryens/Titans [who were essentially their own family].

Both of them have two brothers; one wants the elder brother's power and authority (Renly, Poseidon), the other is an honest autistic man living in a dark and dreadful corner (Stannis, Hades).

Their marriages with their respective wives soon turned sour, and they can't really blame anyone but themselves and their own infidelities.

Cersei and Hera both start destroying the bastards or harassing the women who had slept with their husbands. They then both betray their husbands and initiate a coup against their husband's rule (Hera's was unsuccessful, sadly).

Cersei and Hera are both pictured as vengeful women, but they also have a history of abuse received from their husbands.

[stheresya]

The dragon kings had wed brother to sister, but they were the blood of old Valyria where such practices had been common, and like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men.

Royal incest, semi-divinity and House Targaryen

"Royal brother-sister marriage, Ptolemaic and otherwise" by Sheila L. Ager. In: The Routledge Companion to Women and Monarchy in the Ancient Mediterranean World.

House of the Dragon (2022 - )

[thaliajoy-blog]

It is time to cross the Trident...

It's got to end even if it has to be with Fire and Blood.

🌟 Been thinking about comparisons between Asoiaf characters and greek gods. One of the most obvious to me, to compare to Daenerys, is clearly the goddess Athena. For one as a War goddess, since Daenerys becomes a very successful "conqueror & sacker of cities" (one of Athena's names is "Athena Nikè", the Victorious One). Up there ☝️ I represented her wearing the Aegis, Athena's famous mantle/shield (with the head of Medusa on it, hence the green snakes), as she's about to win arguably her most major battle against the slavers, sending the first blow & earning the trust, loyalry & love of thousands.

But Athena is also a goddess dedicated to peace ; like Dany when she takes Meereen, where she decided to learn how to rule & establish a healthy government.

Daenerys replanting olive trees (a symbol of peace & prosperity very much dear to Athena) is very telling ; it's related to Athena's role as a protector of "the city"...olive trees in mythology where given by Athena to the greeks (her favorite, the Athenians), and became a stapple of their culture & a great source of food & wealth.

She is essentially a goddess of the good government of the city, and famously a goddess of wisdom, and is connected to the usual institutions of government, to the good functioning of assemblies & tribunals. Similarly Daenerys isn't only a conqueror, she also does her best to learn to govern the cities she rules, and she has a certain preference for peace times. The episode where Daenerys reprimands & fines a former slave master for demanding money from weavers he had had trained by a slave of his, can also remind us of Athena as a protector of artesans (and she is herself a very good weaver).

One of Athena's most famous epithet is "Pallas Athena", which means "young girl", perfect for Dany who is often called a young girl or young queen. In that optic Missandei can be seen as an extension of herself or a a second Athena ; she's also called a very young wise girl, and her most defining characteristic, her golden eyes, can make us think of Athena's famously striking grey/silver eyes.

Another epithet of hers is "Hippeia Athena", the "protector of horses" which would relate to her Dothraki side. And, talking of subverted prophecies, a myth about Athena was that when she was in her mother's womb, it was foretold that she would be born a boy who would overthrow his father. But she wasn't, and yet regardless, was born as one of Zeus' most powerful & popular children. Like Daenerys is said to be subverting the Azor Ahai prophecy, which posits a male Targaryen to be the savior of the world.

So in any case, Athena is one of the best fits for Daenerys when it comes to greek myths comparisons ! Especially in the seemless fusion she makes of her war/peace attributes. She really only critically lack the "mother" aspect of Dany (who isn't a sacred virgin at all), but it can regardless be seen as symbolic (mother to her people - like Athena has many "protégés", proxy children or favorite people she fight for in myths).

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Can’t stop thinking about the possibility of Jon potentially gaining the ability to raise people from the dead in the future. It’s kind of out there but I don’t think it’s totally baseless, especially if he ends up being brought back to life by Mel (basically R’hllor magic). So the thing with the Last Kiss is that is involves breathing the fire of life into a deceased person, thereby reviving them. Thoros attributes this to his being able to resurrect Beric? And Beric then uses this to resurrect Catelyn Stark. But it’s like there’s a difference since Beric passed his entire life flame to Catelyn whereas Thoros only breathed life into Beric; also the idea of breathing life into someone gives some serious Judeo-Christian “and God breathed life into man” type stuff.

So anyway, if Mel uses red god magic to bring Jon back then it seems Jon might be similar to Beric in that he can also breathe life flame into someone else. There’s already enough parallels between them and it’s also possible that Jon might replicate Beric and create his own flaming sword, but his will be more like the Lightbringer that was wielded by Azor Ahai. But, I wonder if Jon’s ability to do this will have a much greater effect since he, unlike Beric, is an inherently magical being. And I also have to wonder if ice magic could play a role since Jon has both ice and fire; we have wights and possibly Coldhands as people brought back through ice magic.

There’s also another bit that just screams Christ-like ability to resurrect

She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …”

- Tyrion VI, ADWD

So this is obviously about Dany being AA, but the part about death bending it’s knee and Azor Ahai resurrecting people who fight his cause screams Jesus and some of the stuff said about the resurrection of saints to fight in Jesus’ cause. I’m personally a ‘Jon is also AA’ believer but the thing is that this also gives me Odin and the Einherjar vibes - fallen warriors who reside in Odin’s hall Valhalla and are poised to be reborn to fight in the god’s name during Ragnarok. There are a lot of similarities between Judeo-Christian apocalyptic imagery and pagan apocalyptic imagery, so Odin’s Einherjar mirroring Jesus’ saints isn’t surprising. And then we have Jon who has parallels both Jesus and Odin.

There’s also another bit that makes me think that there’s something about Jon bringing people to life - or rather reanimating dead people - as seen with his Winterfell crypt dreams.

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he’d heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror.

- Jon VII, AGOT

The Kings of Winter are recurring persons in several other dreams (e.g., Ned’s and Theon’s), but it’s only in Jon’s dreams where they actually come to life and leave their tombs. Jon even converses with them (and we don’t hear of that in either Ned’s or Theon’s inner narratives. It’s hard to tell if Jon is the one bringing them back from the dead, or if it’s something about him that causes them to rise. The interesting thing is that the Kings of Winter should have iron swords in their laps (possibly to keep their spirits at bay) but that doesn’t seem to work with Jon since they are reanimated anyway.

So considering all the evidence, I think it’s pretty likely that Jon could probably bring people to life, though it’s hard to tell how and with what magic (since he has a lot going on). Beric, who purposefully serves as foreshadowing for what mint happen to Jon is a good starting point. Anyway, both Jon and Beric for sure are like Christ-like figures. And Jesus has several instances of bringing people back from the dead which foreshadowed his own death and resurrection, most notably with his cousin Lazarus. Which leads me to the question, who’s going to be Jon’s Lazarus?

[jackoshadows]

Mythological parallels: Bael the Bard

One of the ways in which GRRM gives us hints or foreshadowing for Jon and Arya is by crafting mythological stories in the world of Planetos. Further, to try and normalize romantic love between close half-siblings/first cousins and other relatives in the fantasy world he created, GRRM also adds in in-world historical parallels with Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight or Alysanne and Jaehaerys - which GRRM called ‘one of the great Targaryen love stories’. However, one of the strongest pieces of foreshadowing for Jonrya is the story of Bael the Bard.

Bael the Bard aka the King-Beyond-the-Wall is only brought up in Jon Snow’s POV chapters. No other character. This mythology is therefore specifically related to and has to do with Jon Snow as a character and no other. Bael the Bard is intricately woven into his POV over several books, connecting certain characters, themes and houses.

Ygritte first mentions the bard while prisoner of Jon Snow and the other Crows.

"Who was your mother?"

"Some woman. Most of them are." Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who.

She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. "And she never sung you the song o' the winter rose?"

"I never knew my mother. Or any such song." - Jon, ACoK

This is delicious foreshadowing considering R+L= J, Lyanna’s love of Winter Roses, the story of Rhaegar kidnapping/stealing Lyanna and Lyanna’s son Jon Snow being equated to a blue Winter Rose in Dany’s vision at the House of the Undying.

Ygritte then goes on tell the story behind the song.

"That's all in where you're standing too," Ygritte said. "The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael's head, but never could take him, and the taste o' failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o' that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter's night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means 'deceiver' in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak it."

"North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark's own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he'd made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. 'All I ask is a flower,' Bael answered, 'the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o' Winterfell.'

"Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o' the winter roses be plucked for the singer's payment. And so it was done. But when morning came, the singer had vanished... and so had Lord Brandon's maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain." - Jon, ACoK

Despite the Stark maiden later being found hidden in the crypts with the bard’s baby, the song of the winter rose is basically about Bael the Bard stealing a Stark maiden from Winterfell, right from under everyone’s nose. Later, Ygritte equates Bael the Bard stealing the Stark maiden to Jon stealing her.

She ran her fingers lightly across his stomach. “I feared you’d do the same once. Fly back to the Wall. You never knew what t’ do after you stole me.”

Jon sat up. “Ygritte, I never stole you.”

“Aye, you did. You jumped down the mountain and killed Orell, and afore I could get my axe you had a knife at my throat. I thought you’d have me then, or kill me, or maybe both, but you never did. And when I told you the tale o’ Bael the Bard and how he plucked the rose o’ Winterfell, I thought you’d know to pluck me then for certain, but you didn’t. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” She gave him a shy smile. “You might be learning some, though.” - Jon, ASoS

Two things to note here, in terms of parallels and connections.

Jon Snow keeps comparing Ygritte, the woman he is attracted towards and ends up loving, to Arya.

Her shaggy mop of red hair stuck out in all directions. She looked plump as she crouched there, but most of that was layers of fur and wool and leather. Underneath all that she could be as skinny as Arya. - Jon, ACoK

Jon could see fear and fire in her eyes. Blood ran down her white throat from where the point of his dirk had pricked her. One thrust and it’s done, he told himself. He was so close he could smell onion on her breath. She is no older than I am. Something about her made him think of Arya, though they looked nothing at all alike - Jon, ACoK

She wasn't wed and her weapon of choice was a short curved bow of horn and weirwood, but "spearwife" fit her all the same. She reminded him a little of his sister Arya, though Arya was younger and probably skinnier. It was hard to tell how plump or thin Ygritte might be, with all the furs and skins she wore. - Jon, ASoS

"If you kill a man, and never mean t', he's just as dead," Ygritte said stubbornly. Jon had never met anyone so stubborn, except maybe for his little sister Arya. Is she still my sister? he wondered. Was she ever? - Jon, ASoS

Ygritte punched his arm. “You know nothing, Jon Snow. I’m half a fish, I’ll have you know.” - Jon, ASoS

Jon used to say that she swam like a fish, but even a fish might have trouble in this river. - Arya, ASoS

And then there’s all the parallels that GRRM crafts between Arya and Lyanna Stark [Too many to highlight in this essay]. From Ned Stark telling Arya that she looked like and reminded him of the sister he dearly loved to Bran seeing a vision of Lyanna and Benjen playing and mistaking Lyanna for Arya, there are so many Lyanna-Arya parallels littered through-out the books. It’s clear that the author is connecting these two characters as literary mirrors for a narrative reason.

However, GRRM does more than just give us the Ygritte and Lyanna parallels to Arya Stark. He pretty much gives us Bael the Bard 2.0 with Mance Raydar or ‘Abel’ [An anagram of Bael] trying to steal a Stark maiden ‘Arya Stark’ for Jon Snow.

He lays the foundation for this tale right from when Jon Snow meets with Mance Raydar and it’s Jon who compares him to Bael the Bard.

He laughed. “I know every bawdy song that’s ever been made, north or south of the Wall. So there you are. The night your father feasted Robert, I sat in the back of his hall on a bench with the other freeriders, listening to Orland of Oldtown play the high harp and sing of dead kings beneath the sea. I betook of your lord father’s meat and mead, had a look at Kingslayer and Imp .. . and made passing note of Lord Eddard’s children and the wolf pups that ran at their heels.”

“Bael the Bard,” said Jon, remembering the tale that Ygritte had told him in the Frostfangs, the night he’d almost killed her.

“Would that I were. I will not deny that Bael’s exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made. More mead?” - Jon, ASoS

The way GRRM lays the ground work here - ‘but I didn’t steal either of your sisters’ and then in ADwD we get ‘Abel’ trying to ‘steal’ Jon’s ‘sister Arya’ from Winterfell and ends up helping fake Arya to escape.

Jon Snow sends the King Beyond the Wall, Mance Raydar to go steal a Stark maiden, Arya Stark. Mance Raydar uses an anagram of Bael the Bard and goes as Abel the Bard. Remember, Bael the Bard was also King Beyond the Wall. Mance eats at the Bolton’s table and sings at the wedding and the feast.

The musicians began to play again, and the bard Abel began to sing “Two Hearts That Beat as One.” - The Prince of Winterfell, ADwD

Up near the dais, Abel was plucking at his lute and singing “Fair Maids of Summer.” He calls himself a bard. - The Prince of Winterfell, ADwD

Lord Bolton commanded Abel to play for them as they ate. The bard sang “Iron Lances,” then “The Winter Maid.” When Barbrey Dustin asked for something more cheerful, he gave them “The Queen Took Off Her Sandal, the King Took Off His Crown,” and “The Bear and the Maiden Fair.” - The Ghost in Winterfell, ADwD

Not so long as there was food and drink within, willing women and warm fires. As he left the hall, Abel was singing “The Maids That Bloom in Spring.” - The Ghost in Winterfell, ADwD

He turned his head, his pale cold eyes searching the hall until they found the bard Abel beside Theon. “Singer,” he called, “come sing us something soothing.”

Abel bowed. “If it please your lordship.” Lute in hand, he sauntered to the dais, hopping nimbly over a corpse or two, and seated himself cross-legged on the high table. As he began to play—a sad, soft song that Theon Greyjoy did not recognize—Ser Hosteen, Ser Aenys, and their fellow Freys turned away to lead their horses from the hall. Rowan grasped Theon’s arm. “The bath. It must be now.” - Theon, ADwD

It’s very possible that the sad song ‘Abel’ was playing here was the ‘Song of the Winter Rose’ considering that Theon had never heard it before and hence does not recognize and name it [Jon Snow had never heard it before and Old Nan had not told them the story]. And it’s possible that the ‘Song of the Winter Rose’ or the song about Bael the Bard is what acts as a signal for the spearwives to attempt to get ‘Arya’ out of Winterfell.

And then to connect and tie these stories together, the house that puts an end to Bael the Bard’s son is none other than house Bolton!

Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford... and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

"So the son slew the father instead," said Jon.

"Aye," she said, "but the gods hate kinslayers, even when they kill unknowing. When Lord Stark returned from the battle and his mother saw Bael's head upon his spear, she threw herself from a tower in her grief. Her son did not long outlive her. One o' his lords peeled the skin off him and wore him for a cloak." - Jon, ACoK

Which brings us back to Jon Snow’s feud with Ramsay Bolton over Arya Stark and the infamous Pink Letter

Bastard,

Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his host were smashed in seven days of battle. I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore.

Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

I want my bride back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want this wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my Reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

Ramsay Bolton, Trueborn Lord of Winterfell

Jon Snow is accused of stealing Arya Stark by using a King Beyond the Wall Mance Raydar. It’s very possibly that Jon Snow is legitimized via Robb’s decree as Jon Stark and we are going to see a Battle of legitimized Bastards and Stark Vs Bolton. And this time around the tale ends with Lord Stark prevailing over Lord Bolton.

So, to conclude, the story of Bael the Bard appears only in Jon’s chapters and is therefore specifically put in there to add to Jon Snow’s story. Bael the Bard connects Jon Snow to the Freefolk via Ygritte and Mance Raydar, to his mother Lyanna Stark, to his cousin Arya Stark. We see a version of the ‘Song of the Winter Rose’ play out in ADwD with Jon Snow sending a King Beyond the Wall to steal a Stark Maiden from Winterfell right from under everyone’s nose

“Bring her home, Mance. You owe me this one little girl. ” - Jon, ADwD

And maybe this time the story in the song will have a happier ending.

[clytemnaestraes]

I started this house stark-biblical parallels meta ages ago but I simply don't have the time to put together an elaborate post (college lol) so I'm just putting this out there and hoping someone takes over

[spectrum-color]

So we all know GRRM, like all authors, took a lot of inspo from real life fairy tales, religion, and mythology. There are a ton of parallels but I picked out a few to put in this poll

Propaganda: Before anyone says anything, I know a lot of these are dark spins on the original. I’m not trying to say Littlefinger is a handsome prince or whatever. Also note that some of this is based on either things that haven’t happened yet but are highly likely to happen in Winds/Dream up to and including being confirmed by GRRM.

Arya and Jaqen as Hades and Persephone-the young maiden of spring is found by the lord of the underworld, who gives her an object (in this case a coin) to trick her into being trapped in the world of the dead. When she leaves home, winter comes, but when she returns, so does spring.

Sansa as Rapunzel-a princess locked in a tower by an evil sorceress (or just queen) who is spirited away by a man who wants to marry her. Strong focus on her hair as a symbol of her identity.

The Brotherhood Without Banners as Robin Hood and his Merry Men-a band of outlaws who defend the common people against corrupt authority figures. This one is really self explanatory.

Cersei as the evil queen and Margaery/Sansa/eventually Dany as Snow White-a vain, cruel women terrified of her beauty fading and being replaced by a younger woman who outshines her, so she tries to destroy her perceived rival, ultimately leading to her own downfall. The girls in Snow Whites slot are the popular choices for the identity of the YMBQ and the one Cersei is currently convinced it is.

Jaime and Brienne as Beauty and the Beast-a double subversion. Jaime is handsome and Brienne is ugly, but when they meet she’s brave and kind while he’s selfish and cruel, so it’s the beast who helps the beauty be better.

Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Robert as Helen of Troy, Paris, and Menelaus-a beautiful woman fiercely desired by two powerful men, she either runs off with or is kidnapped by a prince, leading to her (soon to be) husband retaliating by starting a tragic war.

Stannis and Shireen as Agammemon and Iphegenia-a king and commander sacrifices his daughter to the gods to win a war. Bonus if this ends up causing Stannis’ downfall.

Lady Stoneheart as Demeter-a mother wanders the land bringing destruction and misery as she searches for her daughter(s.) When her daughters return to her, spring comes.

Cersei and Jaimes children as the emperor wearing no clothes-the emperor walks around naked insisting that he’s a wearing magic invisible outfit, but everyone is afraid to tell him the truth until finally a child points out that he’s wearing nothing at all. See: everyone pretending not to notice that Cerseis children are the result of incest with her brother, and Ned finally realizing the truth when his 11 year old daughter points out that Joffrey is nothing like Robert.

Bran as the Fisher King-the Fisher King is a character from Arthurian myth. He is the guardian of the magical holy grail, protecting it so it (and power) does not fall into the hands of the unworthy. Notably, he also has a deliberating injury to his legs or groin (depending on the version.) Of course the endgame Bran of the show is a blatant rip-off of Leto II from Children of Dune, but I think the Fisher King sounds more like GRRM would do.

Dany as Moses-a leader who has prophetic visions, who after performing a miracle, frees her people from slavery and leads them on a harsh journey to a new land. Notably regarded as a critically important figure by a monotheistic religion.

[melrosing]

a while back you mentioned bran being a fisher king type of figure if he becomes king. i am so intrigued by that concept. can you tell us more?

so full disclosure, I don't have a great deal of familiarity with Arthurian legend or British/Welsh mythology, which is what the Fisher King really draws upon, so I don't think I can say anything of real substance on this subject! i keep meaning to just sit down and swot up on this stuff but it's. not really something you can do in one sitting lol

HOWEVER i think even to a wiki peruser it's patently clear that GRRM is drawing on the Fisher King concept with Bran (as in, once you know he's doing that, you realise he isn't even trying to hide it). and I do tend to think that GRRM is more likely to stick with the top line of a myth or historical event he means to parallel rather than get lost in the minutiae - e.g. Matilda v Stephen succession crisis inspiring Rhaenyra v Aegon, the Black Dinner of 1440 inspiring the Red Wedding, this is GRRM taking the substance of an event but not the details of how it came to pass.

I'm going to guess that rather than getting into the finer details of the Fisher King mythos, GRRM is going to utilise it much like he's used Shakespeare's Richard III for Tyrion, which is another inspiration that seems painfully obvious from the moment you spot it, but is hardly lifted beat for beat, and I seriously doubt that Tyrion's story ends up anywhere like the end of RIII. but you can see GRRM taking the bits and pieces of RIII he finds interesting and twisting them for Tyrion in ASOIAF.

so with that in mind, I'm just going to quickly list the key points I can personally gather from the Fisher King myth that seem to gesture to Bran, and why I think these are probs interesting to GRRM as a writer (but as I say there are people who know lots about arthurian legend and british/welsh mythology who would probs have a lot more to say here):

the Fisher King is usually depicted as being wounded in the groin/legs/thigh - this is considered synonymous with his inability to have children and so propagate his line. immediately obvious parallel to Bran, and I think through both ASOIAF and F&B, GRRM is trying to show that ruling through dynasties where everything hinges on how the next guy's son turns out, is not a viable way to run a country. Bran will not be succeeded by children of his own blood, but I think much in the way that he himself has succeeded Bloodraven

the Fisher King is one with his land as such: his welfare is the welfare of the land, and when he takes a wound (and becomes infertile), the land too becomes barren. the Fisher King awaits a hero who will heal and restore him and so the land (but I can only imagine GRRM would subvert this - it's clear through GRRM's writing of disability that he doesn't see value in just 'curing' his characters. he wants to actually write them as disabled people). and I think there's a lot in Bran's story about man learning to respect the land he lives upon - the children and the first men's peace pact was agreed upon the grounds that the first men would essentially preserve Westeros and its weirwoods etc, and so I think it's generally agreed ASOIAF could end with a similar kind of pact to end the Long Night (or after the end of TLN)? so again, think this point is about Bran representing a renewed relationship between the lands of Westeros and its peoples - the welfare of all is tied together through him

the Fisher King is guarding the Holy Grail. im way out of my depth on this point, someone with more knowledge re. the Holy Grail needs to weigh in here lol, but I would guessssss that maybe this has something to do with Bran ending the story on the Isle of Faces, protecting the peace from there or SOMETHING idk

then the most obvious point: the Fisher King as he appears in Arthurian legend is thought to draw on the figure of Brân the Blessed, a character of Welsh mythology - which immediately recalls Bran the Broken (something Bran literally calls himself several times). the name 'Bran' also translates to crow or raven in Welsh, so, duh. and Brân the Blessed's story ends with his requesting that his head be buried on the White Hill of London - and as long as it remained there, Britain would be safe from invasion. more about Bran being tied directly to the welfare of the land and its peoples

(again there's doubtless a lot more that could be added here by someone who understands the Fisher King myth better than I do, but these seemed like the most obvious points that anyone could draw on)

anyway I absolutely take it as a given that Bran will be King at this point, and whilst it's really hard to imagine what that looks like, I do think it resonates. GRRM likes writing about dynasties but I don't think he believes in them. I'm sure he feels much the same way about feudalism, but I doubt that will be gone by the end of ASOIAF, too, so this is how I picture it??

KL: destroyed. red keep: fucked. some level of politics may continue here post-series, but I think it will no longer be the heart of westeros. the fact that it is in AGOT is I think GRRM trying to show the corruption at the heart of this country - KL is constantly described as a cesspit where the rich play their games and live and eat luxuriously directly atop the shoulders of the poor and downtrodden, divorced from what's happening in the rest of the 7K.

the new heart of Westeros will be the Isle of Faces. this is where I think Bran will end up. we don't know much about it, bc noone is able to sail there, but this was where the pact between the COF and the First Men was created, and it's one of the last places in the south where weirwoods still grow (here, in abundance). and apparently there was once a Green King of the Gods Eye?? if the Green King, of the Rivermen, is in any way the role Bran will soon be occupying, maybe this is where his Tully heritage is somehow relevant. and also like 'god's eye', Bran's whole thing is about learning to see all, so. likely place for him to be. ultimately, I don't think Bran will remain in Winterfell; the story is supposed to be about unity I think, and not northern exceptionalism, so a remaining Stark sibling will take up that seat and as I said before, I tend to think that will be Sansa.

and I guess the most I can imagine beyond this point is Bran living alongside the COF (perhaps in the company of Meera idk?), functioning less as a political entity and more as a figurehead, perhaps an oracle, who lives for the welfare of his people. there will still be politicians to run the country, but they will be guided by Bran in some way, and like Bloodraven, Bran will choose his own successor. what the intricacies of any of this look like i have no idea, but this really does sound to me like the start of GRRM's answer to all his concerns re. dynasties and corruption etc etc

sorry this was all garbled as hell but this is basically what the Fisher King endgame means to me for now. in short, not a whole lot that I can make sense of but I like the feel of it, I think it's consistent with the themes of the text and suggests the start of real change at the end of the story, rather than the start of yet another dynasty.

[branwyn-the-half-witch]

Comparative Mythologies of the Long Night: Part One – Blood Betrayal

(posted alongside the twitter threads of the same title)

‘...the fact that some cataclysm took place many thousands of years ago seems certain’

A series of threads examining the myths of the first Long Night, and what it may tell us about the next.

In World of Ice and Fire (WOIAF) we learned that the Long Night was not merely a Westerosi story, but an apocalyptic event that impacted the entire Known World. That it was the same event is undeniable, because the stories share common threads; darkness, and unrelenting cold.

These threads will examine the origins of the Long Night, the stories of the heroes that fought against it, and will examine the parallels that exist with the main series (ASOIAF) in order to determine whether we can learn anything from these nebulous, uncertain legends.

We have one primary story for the origins of the Long Night, which comes to us from the Great Empire of the Dawn, the ancient predecessor of Yi Ti; this was a vast land ruled by the descendants of the God-on-Earth, only son of the Lion of Night and the Maiden-Made-of-Light.

These rulers, associated with specific gemstones, ruled a vast but increasingly troubled and sinful realm for thousands of years until the throne passed to the Amethyst Empress; however, the younger brother of this first Empress usurped the throne, with deadly consequences.

This ‘Blood Betrayal’ is explicitly cited as ushering in the Long Night. Examine how the Bloodstone Emperor’s reign is described; note that he is highlighted as practising specifically necromancy and slavery, and as having cast down the true gods. All hallmarks of the Others.

As an aside, this is the only mention we have of ‘the sinister Church of Starry Wisdom’ still found in port cities. This is a HP Lovecraft reference (‘The Haunter of the Dark’, specifically) where a cult of the same name worship ‘Nyarlathotep’, an outlier in Lovecraftian mythos because he is upon the earth, alive, and can take the form of a tall man. Unlike the detached, unfathomable horrors of Lovecraft’s other monstrosities, Nyarlathotep is deliberately cruel and openly beguiles and propagandises cults into existence to serve his goals.

Sound like anyone we know? The parallels between how Nyarlathotep functions and is described and Euron ‘when men see my sails they pray’ Greyjoy is quite striking, and the fact that the ASOIAF version of this cult is found in port cities serves to underline the parallel further.

GRRM seems enamoured with examining this kind of figure; one who operates by twisting both the physical and metaphysical into propaganda to serve privately hellish and disturbing goals, whose strength is more intellectual than physical, whose weapons are first and foremost the evil men are already willing to do. The Bloodstone Emperor, the Night’s King, Euron, pre-tree Bloodraven (and possibly even post-tree), the Undying; even Mel is a play on this theme insomuch as her reputation; only her inner thoughts reveal that there is more mortal than monster in her.

It’s important to hold to GRRM’s propensity for echoing his themes, heroes AND his villains throughout the world-building, because he’s writing a Song, and so both harmony and leitmotif are crucial.

(Your obligatory ‘Lovecraft-was-a-massive-racist-so-bear-that-in-mind’ note)

The Long Night is framed explicitly as an act of divine retribution; note the symbolism again that the ‘light’ deity turns her face away, and ‘night’ is the punishment wreaked upon the world. It is worth considering that, as above, the world was in a state of decay prior to the Blood Betrayal; this event is analogous to a great many divine cataclysms throughout our own legends, that come following an inciting horror after a long time of mortal hubris and moral decay. As with the fall of Babel, the Long Night leaves the world a broken and divided place.

The world was saved from the Long Night, and the sun returned. But it was not redeemed, and the Maiden-Made-of-Light still has her faced turned away. Evidence of this is shown in the malformed seasons; WOIAF gives us two knowledgable sources, sound, but untrusted by the Citadel. Septon Barth attributes the strange seasons to a magical matter, and one Maester Nicol contends that the seasons were once of regular length and reliable constancy, of which the only evidence were the most ancient of tales – those likely to pre-date the Long Night.

So what can this origin story tell us? Well, it has all of the hallmarks of GRRM’s main series and interlinks two of his cardinal sins; kinslaying and usurpation – most particularly of a rightful female ruler. Targaryen history is sown with usurpations of the House’s women, from the very beginning, reaching a climax with the Dance, and descending into a long nadir where the dragons die out and Targaryen women lose the last ember of escape available to them. I shall speak later of the notion of blood debts being imposed on the innocent to pay for the survival of all humankind, so make a note of that theme occurring in such a primal level here, in the construction of the mythos, and so all-encompassing that the whole world suffers for the actions of one man – and remember that in relation to Targaryen women specifically.

Within ASOIAF itself, the Red Wedding is such a horrific spiritual crime, it reverberates through time and space to touch far-flung dreamers. It has much the same feeling as this mythic betrayal, which I would be unsurprised to learn also involved the breaking of guest-right.

It is perhaps evocative of the described moral decay that led the GEOTD to be thrown down in the first place, that made it seemingly deserving of the scourge that would come to ruin the world. The Others are already on the march by that point in the story, of course, but much of the War of the Five Kings phase of the books does little to dissuade the reader from the belief that the world is due a massive paradigm shift, as lightning striking the tower. When the world is so unfairly and brutally structured, apocalypse becomes a necessity.

This concludes Part One. Part Two concerns the most famous name from our roster of heroes, and their famous sword.

[bookhousestark]

Thank you so much to everyone who participated in Arya Week! The prompts we used for this week, as well as our previous Arya Stark Month in 2022 are now turned into a special CANON ARYA CHALLENGE! It means that everyone will be free to post their own book Arya edits, artworks, metas, etc. in a form of a meme/challenge without any restrictions: you can post them anytime you want as much as you want. One prompt can be used multiple times and there is no special order. Please, make sure to use the #CANONARYA tag so we can find and reblog your works!

You can find the updated version of the prompts under the cut:

Quotes by Arya.

Quotes about Arya.

Moments.

Books.

Chapters.

Arcs.

Personality traits.

Women in Arya’s life. 

Dresses and costumes. 

Endgame speculation. 

Platonic relationships.

Romantic relationships.

Needle.

Duty vs needs.

Jon Snow.

Disrupting gender norms.

Disrupting class norms.

Prophecies.

Magic - warging, skinchanging, the old gods.

The heart in conflict with itself.

Skills, intelligence and learning.

Valiant Ned’s Precious Little Girl.

Vengeance, Mercy and Justice.

Brotherhood without Banners.

Arya as a leader.

Political arc.

Nature motifs.

Outcast and belonging.

Nymeria and her pack. 

Valar Dohaeris.

Valar Morghulis.

The North.

Braavos.

The Key Five.

Soft/ cute/ humorous moments.

Heartbreaking moments.

Protecting the weak.

Bravest moments. 

Most anticipated meetings or relationships with other characters. 

Familial relationships. 

Feminist moments. 

Strengths and flaws. 

Lyanna Stark.

Mentors and advisors.

Feminity and girlhood. 

Antagonists. 

Allies.

Identity. 

Ambitions.

Parallels and foils: to other characters from ASoIaF.

Parallels and foils: to other Starks.

Parallels and foils: history.

Parallels and foils: mythology.

Parallels and foils: fiction.

Songs and stories.

Men in Arya’s life. 

The Winds of Winter.

A Dream of Spring.

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND THE IDEA OF INNOCENCE

Innocence, especially for women in asoiaf has a particular place in their perception.

Innocence in our world holds a very similar place.

When a character is innocent, you want better for them because any turmoil they go through is undeserved, and by the rules of both societies, it should allow them to be exalted from hardships.

So when it comes to such a small character like Nettles the idea of her innocence is perpetuated past the character we have because she is exalted from the concequence of what she is accused of in the narrative and is redeemed from all the hardship she faces towards the beginning when she claims a dragon.

But I don't think that's fair or correct so I want to go over some things we know and hear about her that people use to defend this idea of innocence and come to the conclusion that even though she is innocent it's not in the way typically attributed to her.

1. Nettles and Sheep:

Her relationship to this animal is a fun metaphor to understand her. Nettles trades sheep to gain her dragon Sheepstealer. Nettles trades innocence for power.

"Lambs have always been sacrificial animals. From the Ancient Greeks and Romans to Christians and even later civilizations, lambs were used for sacrifice to a higher purpose. In most cases, it was the sacrifice to Gods.These are the qualities that make lambs so symbolic. "

"They are a sign of innocence, purity, vulnerability, and sacrifice. Many of these symbols overlap with the symbolism of youth."

The idea of innocence is something that her taming Sheepstealer inherently corrupts. She slaughters sheep every day to get close enough to establish a bond to him. It's a continued effort to trade innocence for power, and because dragons make Targaryens closer to gods than men, the idea is that she's offering a sacrifice to a 'god' to gain power.

I'll link my post about this parallel she has to sheep further.

Another thing is that she's young, and that plays a part in what she is absolved from in the narrative because of the nativity and ability to grow with the potential of youth.

2. Nettles and The Cost of Power:

The regression of this trade for power comes after Driftmark is sacked and burned. In the war effort that Nettles largely contributed to, she loses her friend and her home. We are told her reaction to the loss is crying through the soot on her face so hard it leaves streaks. As with what happens consistently in mythology, the protagonist reaps benefits and consequences in the quest for power. The cost of gaining that power was fighting in the war, something she knew would happen. The fact that it came at the cost of her closest known relationship at the time as well as the place she grew up and had to leave behind to join the war effort is conceivable but not predictable for anyone to know. Especially not a 16 year old girl.

3. Nettles and King's Landing:

A while back, I drew attention to the fact that in the book, we have no real evidence that Nettles had any of the promises made to the Dragon Claimers kept to her. No marriages, lands, or knighthood equivalents are given to her in the wake of the fight. A lot of people use this as a way to say she's innocent because she believes in a cause and is sticking by it. That doesn't seem accurate towards the situation. King's Landing is the capital at that moment for punishing treason. She's a young, grieving girl, experiencing the price of power in a place where her refusal to fight or her running away will be met with a death warrant. Nettles has a nose scar for stealing allegedly. She's one of the characters we know understands the cost of disobedience in this world. She is a cost they'd be willing to pay. Even with her dragon adding to her necessity during the war, they're executing Noble men at that time. Nettles' entire life in juxtaposition to their's is incredibly small. Whether or not she cared about gaining anything (I like to think they gave her money), it's very clear that it's a weary time with major consequences for defiance or treason.

4. Nettles and Daemon:

This is the one people use this idea of innocence the most frequently for. "Nettles was innocent of the accusation made against her (sleeping with Daemon, not witchcraft), and Rhaenyra was influenced and turned against her."

Nettles doesn't need to be innocent for what Rhaenyra did to be wrong. The men who defend Nettles against the decree say that Nettles is wrong but young and shouldn't be killed for that. They conceded that the idea of treason is fair, but the idea surrounding it with the spell implications is simply incorrect and will make Daemon kill them if executed. Daemon is the sole person who puts her in danger and saves her in this narrative for his own character arc. Nettles isn't innocent, but she is young. She has her life ahead of her and has done everything that is expected of her. She isn't punished for love by the narrative. It saves her life and allows her to escape the trapping of power altogether, something she never returns to traditionally.

She does return to it with the burned men, but entirely away from the system, she originally gained that power from.

5. Nettles and Treason:

She did commit treason. That's not an innocent thing. It quite literally required her sleeping with a married prince. Whether or not she's a virgin (we'll get to it) in this world, giving into sex outside of marriage or prostitution as a woman is framed as wrong because of the value of virtue for women. With someone like Nettles, she'd know it's a bad thing and still proceeds with it. While as prince consort and a man Daemon will never dare a lick of concequence for adultery, Nettles would, and treason isn't a far stretch for the crime. Even with the understanding that Daemon would protect her, that they seemingly have, it's not okay. (It is to me. She's completely innocent.)

6. Nettles and Virginity:

Virtue is a currency in this world. Sleeping with a girl and deflowering is seen as a commodity and milestone. Virtue for women is posed as an added value. Without it, as we see in the books, women without maidenheads are seen as a lesser offer often beneath the standard of noble men.

Nettles is not ever positioned as a virgin. In this world, it's a logical conclusion to draw that she is not and would've traded sex for food or money. I'm not saying that happened, but if it did, there seems to be a stigma that it makes her lesser character in the story and / or denies her own autonomy by demeaning her. With the way it is presented in the narrative, it's a fair conclusion to draw. It's said to deter the idea that Daemon would sleep with her because she isn't even worth it, and that's my issue with the she should be virtuous reading.

It falls into the temptation of a character doing what she must to survive being a way to demean her. Nettles was surviving every day before the sowing. Her having sex, prostitution or just because she could, should not shroud her character in any world. Nettles can exist as both a critical view of how Westeros treats girls like her and as an autonomous character who chooses whether or not to have sex given her situation without it being demeaning or derogatory towards her as a character.

7. Nettles and Sex Work:

To add on, sex work is often demonized in this world, and because of the poor class of women often in these positions who are quite young and have no real alternative. Nettles as a character would exist in contradiction to the narrative of not only sex workers who die or are brutalized in that life, think book Shae, Show Roz. She'd also be the one who is actively saved by the class of people who often perpetuate this system of abuse they exist in.

Nettles isn't in it anymore or has once been preyed on by the entrapping cycle that brothels perpetuate but escapes and makes her own way. She's foul-mouthed and marred because of it, but she also becomes a dragonrider, and then when she has sex it's because she wants to.

When the narrative tries to condemn her for it, she's saved by the person who puts her in that position, unlike the other girls, like Tysha, Nettles' value isn't placed on her past sexual partners, and she is like the other girls who fall victim to the predatory sex work establishments in ASOIAF, but she escapes and isn't punished in the narrative for sleeping with someone or trying to survive in the first place. Something we don't really see in this world.

Overall,

The overarching angle of innocence pushed on her character is extremely strange and does not benefit her as a character. Innocence in this world is based on patriarchal feudalism that commodifies women into property and places value on them like stock that depreciates with superficial nonsense.

Question this world.

Nettles isn't innocent and shouldn’t have to be to deserve the ending she gets. She can just escape because she learns and grows and is young enough to do it without major consequences for her.

Nettles is innocent however, in the narrative of a poor, homeless girl with nothing, accomplishing a tremendous feat and gaining power from it, being used in wars and fights that have nothing to do with her and having the threat of death looming if she doesn't comply.

In being used as a means to an end in a conflict between the two most powerful people in the realm and escaping without any permanent concequence to her. She's not guilty.

Let girls have fun and be complex characters in their narratives. Innocence isn't a necessity, but even if it was for you to like her, she is, in a sense, innocent.

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

As Rykker filled it for him, Bowen Marsh said, “You have a great thirst for a small man.”

“Oh, I think that Lord Tyrion is quite a large man,” Maester Aemon said from the far end of the table. He spoke softly, yet the high officers of the Night’s Watch all fell quiet, the better to hear what the ancient had to say. “I think he is a giant come among us, here at the end of the world.”

We’ve all talked about ASOIAF being heavily influenced by Norse Myth, but I rarely see people talk about the parallels Tyrion Lannister has with any of the Norse gods.

An obvious parallel, I think, is the god Loki. Loki was a trickster god with extreme cunning and wit. He was known for his intelligent schemes which tended to both help and hurt Asgard. He also had a certain charm about him that made people love and hate him all at the same time. If you were to come across a witty comeback or jab in an exchange between deities, best believe that Loki would be present. I think we see this of Tyrion, as early as his first three chapters in AGOT. Jon I and II link Tryion with “tricks” and Tyrion II and III showcase his great cunning and wit.

But what makes Loki such an interesting parallel for Tyrion, imo, is the difference in stature. See, Loki is descended from the Jotunn - giants in Norse myth. Tyrion on the other hand is a dwarf, which is a far cry from being a giant. However, we are told time and time again that he is a small man who casts a large shadow. He’s even called (ironically and unironically) a giant several times in the books. So there is an inverse there, Tyrion may not physically be a giant but boy does he have the presence of one! And Loki is a god with a strong presence throughout Norse myth.

And we also have to look at the roles both Tyrion and Loki occupy in their respective verses. Loki is one of the most prolific of the Norse deities (among Thor and Odin) and Tyrion is considered to be among the central ASOIAF characters (whether you believe in the big 5/6 or the big 3).

And if we look at the relationships both establish in their respective worlds, we can see even greater parallels. Loki is a blood brother to Odin, the god of the Norse gods and perhaps the most important one. Well, Tyrion has thus far established some very meaningful relationships with ASOIAF’s two main Odinic figures: Jon Snow and Bran Stark. He and Jon even go as far as officially recognizing each other as friends.

It will be interesting to see just how far these parallels will go as ASOIAF nears completion. In myth, Loki is a key player in the starting of Ragnarok and even takes on the role of an antagonist against the Aesir. While Tyrion siding with the Others in the upcoming apocalypse is a laughable notion, it’s entirely possible that he plays a big role in the political destruction of Westeros. After all, we have been promised a dance of the dragons and Tyrion is said to be a small man with a giant shadow snarling in the midst of all.