#being delusional here but the writing is so casually queer like-

[the-maidofmischief]

I'm sorry this whole scene is insane. Cressida being pressed by her parents to find a man, her and her mother waiting for a suitor to visit and then Eloise is the one who shows up?!?! And Cressida is SO happy about it??

And then her father is all like "i never want you to see that girl ever again" for literally NO reason i'm????? She's a lesbian your honor i rest my case

[buddie911abc]

Here I go again.

Buck asks Eddie if his son is the real reason he doesn't date. Eddie responds with, "That and, they weren't my type."

This has been a flag for everyone who reads the subtext, but let's take a moment to look at the last GIF.

Eddie says they weren't his type. Buck turns around to look at them and probably assesses what makes them, 'not' Eddie's type because the girls were all subjectively pretty. There were also a variety of types of women there.

But look closely at the GIF. Eddie said they weren't his type. While Buck is glancing back, Eddie gives Buck a quick look that really screams, "You are it. You are the type." When I noticed this from the GIF edit, I thought it might be the creator slowing it down, but nope. If I look at the episode, it is the same or nearly the same. This is early season two, and I have always thought, in the early episodes, there was no intent to pair Eddie with Buck as anything but a friend. However, this scene makes me wonder at what point Tim M or whoever was writing changed their minds about adding in a subtextual narrative.

I find it very difficult to see this scene as a heteronormative exchange. In fact, it even feels like Eddie is pushing back a little to test where Buck stands. Buck as a character who lacks self-awareness gives a mixed signal answer. (which tracks with his character at this point and matches his coming-out arc.) **edited to clarify** Buck's mixed signal response to Eddie saying they aren't my type is, "Not mine either, at least not anymore."**

A few seconds later, Buck says Eddie has a weak excuse. My lovely and wonderfully sassy Eddie says, "You live in your invisible girlfriend's house, and you're telling me about weak excuses." He essentially points at Buck's closet door, but of course, this is something that Buck couldn't see or pick up on at the time. These moments are small in the grand scheme of the show as a whole so I'm afraid it will be forgotten. It would be nice to have some sort of throwback acknowledgment that this scene hasn't been retconned.

To backtrack a little bit here, I would also like to point out something else about the early timing or the writing of these characters as potentially queer. They are outside. (True I don't understand the ins and outs of filmmaking so there may very well be a reason for this.) But the shot itself is making them walk close together. Not just close, their shoulders are literally bumping against each other, hitting and knocking at each other in a way that might appear "unintentionally" intimate--until you remember they are outside. It seems to me like there are dozens of ways to shoot this thing that don't require them to be so casually physical with each other. For the scene to be shot like this and then consider the canon conversation that took place, it feels quite intentional that the writers wanted viewers to look closely for something else.

Whenever certain people call Buddie shippers delusional, I think about this. Subtextual language aside, the scenes are shot in such a way as to plant the idea of "More." There is attraction here. There is flirting.

Someone, somewhere wanted to tell this story from the start; and I'm not mad about it. I'm 100% here for it, and I'm ready for it to go down as the most epic love story I've ever watched or read about, but I also admit that I want it to be canon, not so I can throw it in anyone's face that their ship is wrong, but so I can prove I'm not some weirdo putting two hot guys together. I'm seeing a real romance being built. I want that validation as much as I want everyone under the LGBTQ umbrella to see representation for themselves on screen.

If you want to see the scene, go to about 3:05.

[blackgirlsuperherorants]

With more articulation, I'm ready to talk about why the push for Lokius simply bothers me, and this can be said for other m/m or w/w ships that fans push to be canon so hard just because they ship it.

It's the framing. The framing that if Marvel doesn't do it (or whatever the brand is), it's because homophobia, and if other fans don't like it/ship it, it's because homophobia (even if they ship other queer ships and are queer themselves.) And the biggest problem with that is that it overshadows the REAL issue of lack of queer representation on screen in mainstream nerd media, especially from big things under the Disney umbrella (Marvel and Lucasfilm/Star Wars, especially.)

It makes it bad that your ship isn't canon instead of bad that there haven't been any queer romances on screen in the MCU.

And like, as a writer myself, I find myself dissecting the stories of other media all the time. I can watch an MCU movie or series and pretty much assess what direction the story is going in by the narrative points they're hitting. I knew Sylki was basically gonna happen (even if just a kiss) because narratively, that's what the show was doing as soon as they had that "what is love" conversation on Lamentis-1. It didn't mean I liked it. But I knew it was happening.

Similarly, there's no romantic undertones to Loki and Mobius. None. For Marvel to make them a couple, it would mean they'd be doing it simply because the two present as men and it would make stans happy. And while there's something to be said for fan service, it would be annoying to watch them cram two guys together who aren't romantic in the slightest. I'd much rather see Loki meet some guy and have the same type of undertones they were giving to Sylvie and form a real bond to where the kiss feels earned and warranted. Not just put him with the nearest man because "he gay lol."

And how you guys are claiming it's being queer that makes you want this is beyond me. It's not being queer that makes you want this. I don't want queer characters that fuck everyone of whatever gender(s) they're attracted to even when it doesn't make sense for them to. I want real love stories. I mean, yeah, sometimes we can have a slut character, because that's fun, too, but that's not even what y'all think Lokius is. You seem to want them to be in love. But why? Because he's the first friend Loki made that isn't through Thor?

I hate that, too, because I hate this idea that queer people cannot have friends of their same gender without wanting to fuck them. IDK how y'all are, maybe y'all are like that, but I almost never have wanted to fuck any of my friends. The only few exceptions have been when I tried to befriend someone I had a crush on (in which case, usually the friendship can't work, really, because I have a crush on them.) I also think it's okay if you can have casual sex with friends, or if you have a friendship that develops into romance, but Jesus, do you people not have friends that you don't want to fuck? I am bi, maybe more pan (gender kind of doesn't matter to me, I guess) and I'm friends with people of all kinds of gender identities and like... I love them as people, which is why they're my friends, but I DO NOT want to fuck them. Especially my closest friend. I talked about her, before, here, but she's like my sister. The thought of fucking her is gross, to me. Not because she's gross, but because it feels incestuous.

Loki shouldn't want to fuck Mobius just because they developed a friendship. And that's very much how it's written on the series. They almost dislike each other (or Mobius is at least indifferent to Loki) and then they become friends.

That's not to mention the power dynamic that exists, there. And I know some of y'all are subs, but yeah, it's a bit gross to imply a sexual relationship with Loki's captor.

But on to Sylki. It sucks that I feel like most of y'all hate Sylki because Sylvie is a girl, and not just because it's bad in other ways. Like, the reasons Sylki is bad have less to do with "it should have been Mobius" and more to do with it being a lazy 1980s action movie plot that should have never happened. I'm not as creeped out by the selfcest (as many of you wouldn't have been if she was a he, I'm almost positive), but what's bad about it is that they couldn't have a strong female lead character without her being the love interest of the main guy. She didn't need to be, especially because she was a Loki variant, anyway. There was no need for it to have romantic undertones, and there was no need for them to kiss. It was sexist more than it was homophobic (and I can't help feeling like y'all are kind of being biphobic in this case. Maybe I'll talk about that, later, but yeah.) It was sexist bullshit. And there's valid criticism that Sylvie is underdeveloped. She's just angry and something for Loki to project affection onto.

I was also hoping they'd do a "found family" type of thing with Sylvie and Loki and let her be like the sister he never knew he needed, but no, they had to go trope and make her the love interest. It was lazy and bad and basically went "If Loki girl, main Loki want bone!"

Basically, having the main character fall for a character just because of their proximity and gender is bad and I hate it (and it would have been bad with Mobius, too, but yeah.)

Both the Mobius and the Sylvie thing also feel kind of racist, to me, because the show has prominent Black women who aren't even presented as desirable to Loki. And y'all, of course, ship him with anyone but the Women of Color. Y'all can pull true love with Mobius out of your ass, but he couldn't possibly fall for the Black women. lol.

Anyway. Not every show needs ships, and this show shouldn't have had any. I hate it. It's bad.

I guess on the biphobia front, I have heard some takes that it's not biphobic because Loki being queer in the MCU which hasn't shown any queer relationships, and Loki being the first openly queer character means they shouldn't have shown him with a woman presenting character. Which, I guess I get where you're coming from... but I have also been in fandoms for a long time and I see mostly girls saying this shit, which is what leads me to feel like it's simply jealousy. It happens all the time when a long-beloved single male character/celebrity suddenly starts dating a woman. Everyone hates it. And like, we haven't seen Loki be with ANYONE in the MCU, because mostly he's been doing villainy and his dating life hasn't been relevant. If the demigod says he's bi, he can kiss a woman. Especially a woman version of himself. Like I said, I hate it for other reasons, but pretending it's because he should have kissed Mobius is utterly delusional. He probably shouldn't have kissed anyone. Not in this series. There was no reason for any canon romance, especially because the show has a season 2 and we'll have time to see Loki develop earned, deserved romance with someone.

I'd much rather see them create a character just to be his boyfriend than have y'all push Marvel into making Lokius canon, which is a nonsense ship that only happened because Mobius is the only prominent male-presenting character before we meet the other Lokis.

My sincere wish is for people to remember that their ships are just ships and to enjoy them without getting all self-righteous about it. I TOLD y'all that Lokius wasn't gonna be canon like 4 episodes back, and here y'all are acting shocked and like Marvel took something from you. NOBODY expected y'all to ship Lokius. It's not even queerbait.

You can make clear arguments as to why Sambucky was queerbait. It's there in undertones in the actual series.

You cannot watch Loki and tell me you thought it was queerbait, unless you think men can't have conversations or hug goodbye without being romantically involved. Which means, in my opinion, that you need to learn about healthy masculinity.

Again, this is not a defense of Marvel. They DO need to let characters be queer, for real, and not just by saying " A bit of both". Like, let Loki be queer. Let Deadpool be queer. Let these queer characters be queer on screen. Yes.

But please stop making it about your ship. I'd rather see a flashback of Loki dating a guy and see him kiss someone he loved back on Asgard than watch y'all force Lokius. Because my queer rep is not about your crackship. It really isn't. And the fact that y'all keep calling us homophobic for not liking your ship REALLY needs to be addressed.

Like, when will y'all stop? I got on Stucky shippers about this shit in the past. All of us gay as hell, too, we just don't like YOUR ship. A lot of us like other queer ships. A lot of us like queer ships in other fandoms, too, and even have queer OCs. YOUR ship just ain't it. Stop forcing it. Literally, most of the ship wars between MCU fans have been queer ship vs queer ship, not really queer ship vs straight ship. Like, the number one Stucky rival ship was Stony. Not Steggy. People are not homophobic for not wanting your ship.

Sometimes it's because they ship something else.

And sometimes, like me, it's because they want something to make sense narratively and not happen for the sake of it happening. It's always better writing to have a character meetcute a new love interest than to magically turn a platonic friendship into a romantic relationship. Like, even when the characters are straight. Like, when Moesha dated Hakeem. It was just weird, even if he was kind of a great boyfriend. He was just supposed to be her friend, and people didn't really like it because it didn't fit narratively.

And that's why ships for the most part should be left to fanfiction, with the exception of a few where fans are right to call out the writers for not making it canon because it's clearly bait (like what happened to Destiel shippers. To see Lokius shippers compare themselves to THAT was so ridiculous. Destiel shippers had a decade of evidence only to be let down by a criminally unfair ending. Lokius shippers saw two men have a deep conversation once and lost their minds.)

Anyway, I'm not saying don't ship Lokius. I don't even hate it, really. I just think it obviously shouldn't be canon, and fans pretending like they were robbed of it is ridiculous. Literally, Ao3 exists for this reason. I will never see Steve fuck Sam Wilson, so I wrote it into my fanfic. I am not mad that they didn't actually date in the main MCU storyline.

[flyingcatstiel]

1of2 Tired of metas blaming executives / defending writers. Writers can write horrible endings. Proof - GOT, HIMYM, Lost etc. Executives didn't force those bad endings. Reading all these conspiracy theories feels like I am listening to Trump. Executives are homophobic but ok with incestous ending? I asked my SO (who never watched SPN) to watch SPN final with me. I quote him "didn't you say they are brothers. It almost looks like they are going to kiss - Ewww - is this what you want me to watch?"

2of2 Even if we look at bottom line - Executives - apparently don't care the fact that Destiel was trending FIRST world wide - in middle of pandemic, middle of historic US elections - such free publicity to gain more viewers and money - but they care about incestous endings which grossed out lot of people. I wish these metas and conspiracy theorists stop baiting people and stop defending writers. Even before covid - Dabb had intended for this bad ending with proof that only 30% will like it.

Oh, nonnie. If you have sent this just 2 days ago, I’d be there with you, all salty about metas defending writers. Today tho, after going through some serious posts about the CW involvement with the show, about Russian market, about professional dubbing practices I have my thoughts in different order. 

So, from what I’ve seen so far (barely past midnight November 26 in the US as of writing this). Jensen went to re record audio stuff for 15x18, most likely Cas confession scene. Now we have info from Latin America (2 separate dubs)  that Dean actually reciprocated Cas’s love declaration and only after that The Empty took Cas. Nonnie, this changes everything. The first thing so many viewers noticed and commented on was the weird way the scene was cut and how little emotions Dean showed. The running gag on twitter was that Jensen is homophobic and Misha strong-armed him into that scene. Non shipper said that it was platonic love declaration from Cas, coming out of nowhere. But most importantly, we, shippers were robbed from proper celebration of our ship going canon. After 12 years of sticking with the ship, they still took it from us. This is totally on the CW shoulders.

But also, this means that destiel was at some point greenlit by the executives to be reciprocated in canon. Until someone at the CW backpaddled in late September. The writers are not responsible for this, they are victims of these changes as well. Dean’s answer changes the emotional beats of several scenes in 15x19 in addition to the scenes that were cut. 15x19 has that strange montage at the very end which most likely was added to cover cut scenes, say like Lucifer, Jack and Cas scene in the empty? Because if Misha was in 15x19, that would mean that the prank call was never meant to be his last contribution. I mean, the disrespect to the fans, the writers and Misha, all in one episode.

And then there’s 15x20 which looks so weird that a lot of fans immediately said that it is a butchered episode. Thing is, we have no idea what kind of script was written pre covid, how much it was changed and when, and how much was cut out from filmed episode. I’ve seen posts sayin that the script for 15x20 was still in rewrites when they finished filming for 15x18. Which is very, very late for a shooting script. I personally think that Dean’s death was the thing Jensen disliked so much, but even then - we don’t know how it was framed in earlier scripts and how they arrived at that horrific scene in 15x20. 

I’m not saying that SPN writers are the most amazing TV writers out there, and I look forward times when we will be able to discuss all problematic stuff SPN is filled to the brim with, but. We just don’t know what exactly happened in the SPN writing room and how much executives meddled with it. COVID happened. Nothing of this is normal. This is why the most important thing right now is to pressure the CW for some answers. Look at them throwing Misha under the bus today. That tells you bunches how well they know fandom and how to manipulate us. 

Now about that incestuous scene, aka Dean’s death, and why homophobic executives would be OK with it but not canon destiel. Under the cut we go, mostly for space reasons. 

Ok, this is so funny but I actually just finished writing my second answer about wincest in 15x20 and had problems posting it and that’s how I learned that we broke tumblr and destiel went canon in spanish. Here’s my post, check it out bc I’m not repeating it  here. 

I think wincest, aka incest between two able bodied, adult male brothers is something casual viewer outside the fandom is not even thinking about. If it was sister/brother deal with intimate embrace, people would notice faster. But two masculine, 6 ft tall macho dudes during the death scene? Nope. Here comes plausible deniability which viewers also use to ignore anything “funny” between Dean and Cas. I’m glad that you and your partner noticed incest vibes, but, I’ve see plenty people even in destiel fandom being fine with such scenes between Sam and Dean. I’ve seen some destiel fans saying that they really loved 15x20, so, there are viewers out there for whom it worked. 

Now let’s look at the bottom line. TBH, I’ve no idea where to look? Where is the projected revenues for a show that is ending? You say that Destiel trending during pandemic is a proof that our fandom is huge, but. No one knew that we had such power! And trending on twitter is not something that translates into money easily. And it happened 2 weeks before finale. There’s no time to change finale anymore. I personally think that destiel fandom has been shrinking for past couple of years, since so many folks left due to bad writing and queerbaiting. But they came back for tweeting. At this point destiel is bigger than it’s fandom. I personally think that the CW would have benefited from canon destiel, but they made different call.

I agree with you that in general, fandom should not defend the writers so much and ought to be more critical about the stuff they write, but today, November 26, 2020, the game is happening on completely different plane. I’m pretty sure that we got a butchered finale, and I’m very much inclined to believe that it is somehow connected to their efforts to promote The Walker show. Maybe Dabb’s original finale was really bad, but show me the script then. If destiel was supposed to be reciprocated, then they might have gone overboard with bro love in Dean’s death scene. Only now, when destiel was one-sided, that scene becomes very wincesty seemingly on purpose. A good creative writing, in it’s finished form, is a very tightly woven fabric. You pull out some threads, you unravel whole fabric. And that’s what 15x20 is. 

2 days ago I’d be roasting metas who defend spn writers, today I want to storm the CW. (pitchforks anyone?) Destiel shippers were robbed, queer love story was censored, this should be the focus of or anger today, not the writers or actors. We can do both - demand truth about the Cas confession scene and roast original Dabb’s ending if we ever get it. 

ETA - after writing this up, I checked out some posts by blogs who debunk all conspiracies, including Spanish dub. They sound very convincing! But in that case we have to talk about long term queerbaiting that was taking place on this old CW show till the very last minute. Cas was used in promos for 15x17 he was not in. They (ppl who make promos) deliberately used Cas barn scene from 4x01 in those promos, then actual barn in 15x20 promo but somehow it is shippers who are delusional? Don’t start me on Song of the day. Angel with a shotgun for 15x19? What was that about? After 15x18 there was no official goodbye to Cas which made ppl to watch finale. Like? Even if the Spanish dub gets officially debunked by the CW and not some random blogs, we are left with the fact that destiel fandom was gaslighted during the last stretch of s15. And not only by writers.

And if this was the finale they so lovingly crafted and deemed to be good, where are the celebration of the SPN ending? Why we had to watch documentary before the episode? Why 15x20 was so short? Why Canada watched the episode first (and leaked spoilers online) They filmed after quarantine, the script had to be the usual length. And so on, fandom has been through all the things that didn’t match several times already. PITCHFORKS -> the CW