#but wwx is a human person

[whetstonefires]

I know I talk about mdzs modern AUs a lot, but it's just somehow become a fascinating adaptation process to me, all these people making their personal calls about the nature of reality.

And a thing I keep coming back to is all the people who deliberately decide to give modern!wwx Mo Xuanyu's build.

To preserve the strength contrast that's leveraged for horny, which like, yeah that's fair, horny is an acceptable reason to make a story choice. I respect that, sometimes grudgingly.

But as a result of noticing this being done, oftentimes it seems without any reflection about why, I've developed this minor obsession with the fact that wwx in his own body at its adult height was fractionally shorter than lwj.

And this was the height he reached after a multi-year period in childhood living on scrounged garbage, plus the three months starving in the mass grave toward the end of his growth period.

Meaning that by all normal logic, a modern AU wwx who did not experience these periods of intense privation--which is most of them; it's quite rare for children to experience that particular form of total neglect in modern developed nations and modernAU!wwx's life ruining circumstances only occasionally involve intense physical torment--is going to be significantly taller as an adult.

Like. Add a few inches on there.

Where are all my adequately nourished six-foot-four Wei Wuxians???

[layzeal]

today i accidentally learned that there's an entire subgroup of wwx stans on twitter who have me blocked, which is all good, but it's terrible for them because it means they're missing golden tweets such as this

[lancabbage]

Just seen someone call WWX naive and possessing a martyr complex... This is an apparent 'fan' of MDZS. Sounds more like JC commenting on WWX here!

How far from the actual character could you get?! WWX is neither of those things. I'm sure people downplay his bravery and want for justice just to make themselves feel better because they don't have the balls to stick up for innocent people or things they believe in. Sorry you're just a shitty person who'd stand by while people suffer injustice, but could you stop talking out of your arse please?

[mxtxfanatic]

I remember someone wrote a thing about how Wei Wuxian would make a terrible parent because “he laughed when A-Yuan was lost,” but would you look at this:

Turning around, though, he realized that Wen Yuan was gone. He almost turned pale, searching for the toddler all along the streets. Suddenly, he heard the wails of a child, and he immediately rushed over. Somewhere not far away, a group of nosey passerbys gathered into a bustling circle, pointing at something and chattering among themselves. He shoved through the crowds, and his eyes lit up at once.

—Chapt. 74: Distance, exr

It’s almost as if Wei Wuxian only laughs after he sees who A-Yuan is with, because he was relieved to find the toddler not only safe but safe with one of the few people he still trusts in the world to be unconditionally kind. However even then, he doesn’t let it go too far:

Wei WuXian had already laughed to his death, but as he saw how Wen Yuan was crying so hard that he was almost choking, he could only step out.

[lunaticmeap]

sorry it cracks me up that WWX in the novel and donghua, in his original body, literally is so fit that he probably only fainted like once right after the Xuanwu cave arc + self proclaimed that he can continue to fight several battles after being gutted. meanwhile in The Untamed, boi went thru Xuanwu cave arc, fainted, got rescued, got home, got changed and presumably rested, and proceeds to faint AGAIN right in front of JFM and his peers like LMAO PLEASE THE INDIGNITY

[happypeachsludgeflower]

I relate to WWX on a spiritual level. I too would go feral is someone dared to harm Wen Ning.

[piosplayhouse]

Today I got a notification that someone tagged one of my posts "he's just a family pet they trained to defend their kids" and at first I was like oh haha this is probably in response to when I called Liu Qingge bingqiu's pet right funny. And then I clicked on it and it was actually on my post about wwx having privilege in the cultivation world due to his status in the Jiang family and I was just like hm.

[xiyao-feels]

I think my personal WWX-and-the-Wen fixit is just...Yanli and Zixuan don't invite him to the celebration for JL. At no point do they ever invite him back, or at least not until a long long time has passed. JC doesn't either. No one does. He is not invited to circulate in cultivation society at literally any point. (Though perhaps JC and JYL manage to visit, it would have to be very occasionally but not necessarily never.) It's... I mean, it sucks for WWX, don't get me wrong, but like—Zixuan just is not up to this politically, he's just not. And WWX is not going to react well when threatened! Understandably but in a way that's likely to lead to things going downhill! And Zixun was blaming WWX but he doesn't seem to have planned to actually attack him until after Zixuan invites him so he can set up an ambush, presumably because of how difficult that would be:

And thus, Jin GuangShan was the only one to whom he told about the curse, pleading with Jin GuangShan to find him the medics and curse specialists. Yet, neither of the two were able to do anything.

Jin Ling’s full-month celebration just so happened to be near, to which Jin ZiXuan actually invited Wei WuXian. Jin GuangShan wasn’t too fond of this idea to begin with, and so he suggested that Jin ZiXun use this as an opportunity, killing Wei WuXian on his way to the banquet.

(ER, ch 76)

I mean, I'm not saying the situation is exactly stable. JGS definitely would rather that WWX were dead and that he had the Yin Tiger Seal. But it's definitely stabler, and certainly safer. It's not trivial to kill WWX! It takes a lot of doing! And politically getting together a coalition against WWX when he's just sitting in the Burial Mounds not doing much is likewise not actually trivial.

I don't know, it's not any kind of guarantee of safety or a good outcome. It does seem likely though that it would have taken longer to go so badly, and it's...not the likeliest outcome, but maybe not completely impossible, that it doesn't end with total death and destruction? And it seems likely that for the Wen at least it's a better outcome, because if nothing else it seems likely that they'd survive longer.

[llycaons]

who is even attracted to that it looks like plastic covered in oil

[thepurplewombat]

The Sin List

okay, so as we all know, it is vitally important that any character we stan must be morally pure and a good example to emulate in real life.

So I have decided to create a list of MDZS characters and their sins, which everyone can easily refer to in order to make sure that they are not following some horrible criminal or murderer!

This was a lot of work, but I'm very proud of it. Just doing my bit to ensure the moral purity of the fandom!

Wei Wuxian - Necromancy, disrespecting his elders, disrespecting the dead, killed Jin Zixuan, punched Jin Zixuan in the face one time, cannibalism, mind control, deviant sexual fantasies, trespassing, oath-breaking, urged Wen Qing to perform untested and possibly fatal operation on Jiang Cheng without his consent.

Lan Wangji - Defied his elders, broke the Lan Clan rules, sexually assaulted Wei Wuxian, deviant sexual fantasies, GBH (JGY)

Jin Guangyao - betrayed and killed Wen Ruohan, betrayed and killed Jin Guangshan, murder (NMJ), murdered assorted people, disrespecting the dead, assorted Spy Things for Wen Ruohan.

Nie Mingjue - Killed a lot of people during the war, verbally abused Nie Huaisang, burned Nie Huaisang's stuff, attempted murder (JGY), attempted murder (JGY), attempted murder (JGY), murder (JGY), killed the Mo family (well, his arm did anyway). In favor of the genocide of the Wen Remnants

Jin Guanshan: Sexual assault, rape, murder, ordering human experimentation with resentful energy to be done by his sect, played both sides during the war, didn't take responsibility for his children, ultimately responsible for getting WWX killed because he wanted the YTT so bad

Wen Ruohan: Attempted world domination, murder etc

Lan Qiren: has a stick up his ass

Su Minshan: Refused to die for the Lan, supported JGY in his efforts to prevent undead Da-ge from killing him. Also cursed Jin Zixun.

Sect Leader Yao: Weathervane politician

Jiang Wanyin: strangled Wei Wuxian that one time, keeps trying to talk to him but is way too tsundere about it, killed many during the war, didn't immediately forgive WWX for getting JYL killed, threatens to break Jin Ling's legs weekly.

Jin Ling: rude. rude rude rude. Also stabbed WWx one time

Lan Jingyi: not respecting his elders, rude rude rude. Also loud

JFM: shit dad, throw him in a volcano

Madame Yu: Angry mom, beat Wei Wuxian for things that weren't his fault, yelled at JC a lot, didn't appreciate JYL, very mean.

Lan Xichen: killed people during the war. Randomly starts doing flute solos in conversation

Meng Shi: was a prostitute. Told Meng Yao his dad was amazing and he should totally look him up later.

Madam Jin: awful person, she can go into the volcano with JFM. physical and verbal abuse (JGY)

Nie Huaisang: killed cats, nearly killed the juniors, let his sect fall into ruin, traded obscene materials, disrespecting his sect's traditions, lied to Lan Xichen to make him kill JGY

Wen Qing: went along with WRH's plans, performed surgery on JC without his consent

Wen Ning: Was part of the burning of LP

Mo Xuanyu: Summoned Satan to murder his relatives, harassed his brother

Jin Zixun: asshole, rude, broke the Geneva Convention on the ethical treatment of prisoners several times. Useless person

FOR THE SAKE OF SAFETY AND YOUR MORALS YOU ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO STAN THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERS

Jiang Yanli

Qin Su

Lan Shizui

[meibywabie]

Xie Lian isn’t a hero.

I started with TGCF first when I was introduced to danmei, and I was floored by what I read. It wasn’t just boys kissing in ancient china, it was actually about human tragedy and the selfishness of the omnipotent.

The theme of TGCF doesn’t revolve around XL alone. It’s much bigger than that. This isn’t a ‘TGCF is better’ post, but rather, TGCF is different. And it’s different because Xie Lian isn’t a typical human hero.

XL is not a heroic character like WWX, and he isn’t a sarcastic/comedic relief hero like SQQ. And it isn’t because of their personalities. XL is just as selfless as WWX and just as unreasonably punished as both other MC’s. However, when bad things happen to WWX, you know it’s because of his personality. Because of his kindness, his confidence, his wit. It’s simply BECAUSE it’s WWX as the protagonist.

Same with SVSSS. That story couldn’t have happened without Shen Yuan in SQQ’s body. Like we never would have gotten that level of sarcasm, pity, and empathy. And the novel tells you that repeatedly. Everything that happens in the previous two novels does so because of who the main character is.

But when things happen in TGCF, XL isn’t even the center of the conflict. It’s almost always someone else’s fault, someone else’s business, or someone else’s issue he just happens to be present for. But somehow, it always comes back to him. It’s always his job to resolve things.

Unlike WWX, the conflict isn’t his fault. WWX actively pushes the narrative with his actions. He drives the conflict and later becomes it. Whether he’s at fault or not is the point of his story, but for XL, he’s really just incredibly unlucky. He’s tragic in the sense that he’s just being fucked over by everyone in his life. For what? For being…wonderful!?

I absolutely love that his one little phrase pissed off the evil emperor of heaven. Like his mere existence is a problem.

It’s an incredible piece of writing that the things that get him into trouble are his altruism. Altruism that is fitting for someone who thinks himself a GOD. But also, altruism that many of us mortals share.

Why CANT he save his people if he’s a god? Why CANT he answer everyone’s prayers? Why is he not good enough or strong enough to resolve this conflict if he’s literally a GOD.

XL is constantly facing issues and asking questions that humanity itself has asked.

Why isn’t god answering me, why isn’t god helping me, why do we have a god at all? TGCF has a commentary that doesn’t limit itself to just XL and the type of person he is in the way that MDZS relies on WWX and SVSSS relies on SQQ.

Those novels are how most novels typically function. You choose a specific type of human and see the world through their eyes.

But XL isn’t human. Not in the way he acts nor in the way he tells this story. He tells you everything he witnesses and it barely affects him anymore. He just has some wise thoughts about what everything means.

But TGCF isn’t asking: what would happen if a kind prince ascended to godhood?

Instead—

TGCF begs the question:

What if you told the story of humanity, not through the eyes of a human, but through the eyes of god.

Xie Lian is god.

XL is 800yrs old, has lived through countless tragedies, celebrations, friendships, betrayals, and he ascends. Again.

He’s been stuck with the burden of immortality and now he’s re entering the place that gave him that burden. He walks into heaven to see new gods, but the same old problems. And the whole vibe he has in this is less benevolent and wonderful and more like a fed up mom who’s tired of seeing the girls fighting.

He sits back and watches these issues devolve and shuffles his way into the conflict by accident. Because he’s the only one competent enough to do anything about it.

XL doesnt react like a human being, at the start of the current timeline, he’s a god.

He’s an 800yr old god. He’s seen everything, learned everything.

We see this prince who thinks himself a god then become one. And instead of learning what it means to be a god so he can help the common man— he learns what it means to be a common man so he can become a real god.

XL goes through HELL. He loses countless times, is left, betrayed, ruined, trampled, destroyed. He is constantly being thwarted by not just people but the very gods he worshipped and the god he himself became. But again— XL isn’t even that big of a personality for us to cling to that alone and see how these things happened to him??

He isn’t boasting about how great he is out of pride and ego, he isn’t rampaging or going mad with power, he isn’t a huge character. But his lack of those qualities is what triggers Jun Wu to ruin him. He wants to see him go crazy, wants to see him struggle. Wants to see his ego and pride. And he’s not the only one!!!

Mu Qing is also incredibly jealous, so are the other gods!!! And Qi Rong, his own family!!! His parents even get upset with him for not doing enough. Everyone saw this kid blessed with so much and started wishing for him to break. And they succeed. He goes insane, he starts killing, he starts wanting to die, he starts losing faith.

But MAN it is just so gorgeous to me that this character is almost…forced to be a main character? Forced to suffer, forced to make mistakes, forced to be a problem. He is so powerful and smart and incredible and then he is made to believe he is nothing. Here is this god who has been forced to feel HUMAN.

And once he finally feels that way, once he finally falls to the ground and loses everything, someone comes by and offers his hat.

And that’s all it takes for a man to truly become a god.

TGCF asks what if you told a story through the eyes of god? It shows you this guy sighing through drama and fixing peoples problems.

And then it goes back and tells you: What makes a man, god?

And we read all of XL’s history. His victories and failures. And it perfectly describes how he’s ascended again. Not out of heroics this time. But out of his pure humanity.

God is a kind, gentle, but confident man who wanders around helping who he can and opening his doors to those who wish to come in. He resolves the conflicts he’s there for, and takes note of those he wasn’t there for. He trudges along holding no grudges and sighing when people make mistakes. He loves selflessly and holds no judgment. He feels strange letting people take care of him but he will take care of you. When he can, and when he has the chance, he will take care of you.

XL is almost born with every book definition of what a god is: kind, selfless, strong, and true. But his story forces him to learn how to be human instead. To fail, die, love, kill and suffer. And when that god was beaten and broken, he was saved by one thing. A human.

That’s how you become a god. And that’s what it means to be one. To be human. To be a good person.

XL couldn’t have been a WWX. He couldn’t have been a staple protagonist with a heart of gold, wit and passion. He couldn’t have had a story with everyone’s conflict directly tied to him and because of him. That isn’t what TGCF is for.

It isn’t about XL himself. It’s about god. It explores the selfishness that comes with immortality, and the selflessness that comes with mortality.

There are other aspects that make it a nice protag story. He falls in love, he’s kinda air headed and sassy. He did have the character and maturity to choose to become a wonderful godlike person but that’s a post for another day. But honestly, if this were a regular novel, it probably would’ve been about Hua Cheng. He lives for love and passion and devotion. He kills and saves and sacrifices, he denies godhood and wins the girl in the end. Now THATS a hero.

But XL isn’t a hero. He’s a god.

MXTX wrote a story that wasn’t about a sheepish prince who lost it all, but instead wrote a story about gods and humans. She wrote what reads like a Greek epic to me. With such hard comments on morality and cruelty. She really hit me with everything I love about literature. And yes I do love MDZS and SVSS but TGCF is different.

Like guoshi said: the gods are human, after all. But XL above them all, is most definitely a god.

[thisisallthehattersfault]

Most warprizeji fics have either YLLZ going That One I Want That One and sweeping LWJ off his feet after LWJ thought he’d be treated like shit, or LWJ being offered up to a YLLZ who is suspicious of his new bride and suspects assassination attempts or something only for the two to mutually fall in love anyway, and I love both of those flavors! However, please consider: The sects all bully Lan into giving up LWJ as a war prize, LWJ is escorted (forced) to the Burial Mounds by representatives from Every Sect, and YLLZ takes one look at this new “gift” before absolutely fucking popping off because That Is A Person!! A Human Being!! What The Fuck Is Wrong With All Of You?!? Get Off My Mountain. And LWJ is left standing there, watching this actually very beautiful and powerful man absolutely rip the other sects a new asshole for basically trying to sell him a slave, thinking “... Maybe I DO want to tap that.” Only YLLZ has sent him away! He has forbidden the sects from ever trying anything like this again! Seriously, What Is Wrong With All Of You? (Yunmeng Jiang, the only ones who were not involved, are all quietly smug about the whole thing. We told you he wouldn’t go for it.) Not two weeks after returning to Gusu a caravan shows up outside cloud recesses, from the Yiling Wei Sect, carrying gifts for LWJ and his family and his sect as an apology for whatever the fuck that was, and a promise that if anybody tries to do anything like that again, they can reach out to Yiling Wei and YLLZ will come make damn sure nobody is going anywhere or doing anything they don’t actually want to be doing. ... LWJ definitely wants to tap that. He ends up writing back a thank you letter to YLLZ, who responds in kind with reassurances that no thanks are necessary and seriously dude are you okay cause that was A Lot. LWJ writes another letter, promising he’s returned safely and happily to his home, and his brother and uncle have been very clingy and overprotective but things are settling down again. YLLZ writes him back. LWJ writes him back. Suddenly they’ve been pen pals for the better part of two years and LWJ has finally convinced WY to come visit him in Gusu so he can properly begin Operation: Seduce The Yiling Patriarch. The operation goes much smoother than expected, because it turns out YLLZ never actually saw his face last time. LWJ had been wearing a veil. So poor unsuspecting WWX rolls up to Gusu to come hang out with his buddy LWJ who he’s been sending letters to pretty consistently since the whole War Prize Fiasco only to come face to face with the most beautiful man to ever walk the earth. WY immediately decides to begin Operation: Seduce Hanguang-Jun. A week later they’re getting caught making out in the library like randy teenagers. Xichen does Not say I Told You To to Lan Qiren. Lan Qiren hears it anyway.

[lancabbage]

Where did the whole "WWX did not regret giving up his golden core" theory from?

He did.

Truthfully, he wasn’t unaffected. Could a person so easily resign themselves to such a loss?

Of course not. It was impossible.

WWX reflecting upon giving up his golden core.

But whenever he found himself tossing and turning in the dead of night, unable to sleep and plagued by thoughts of how he’d never again follow the orthodox path to the mountain’s peak, never again display the astounding swordplay that made people’s jaws drop…he would turn his thoughts around with a simple fact.

If it had not been for Jiang Fengmian bringing him to Lotus Pier, Wei Wuxian might never have crossed paths with the cultivation world. He would never have been conscious of such a mystical and magnificent realm. He’d merely have been the leader of some homeless street urchins who roamed the streets and fled at the sight of dogs—or perhaps herded cattle and stole vegetables in the countryside, playing his flute and living one day at a time. He’d have had no way of cultivating, let alone a chance to form a golden core.

He did, and that's alright. He's only human! People seem to think he gave his golden core up because "he loved his brother" and "he's just a kind idiot". Nope. WWX is kind, but he's not stupid and he definitely didn't give JC his core because of affection.

So he treated it as a repayment of his debt, or an atonement for his sins. Treated it as if he had never obtained that golden core to begin with.

After bringing himself around so many times this way, he was almost able to actually feel as wild and carefree as he acted on the surface. He could even half-jokingly praise himself for the state of acceptance he had reached, while he was at it.

He gave him his golden core because he felt like he had to. He had been told, time and time again this was all his fault (by JC and YZY) and the last thing both YZY and JFM said to WWX, although worded differently and said in complete opposite tones, was a reminder that WWX "owed" the Jiangs everything and should look after JC no matter the cost.

This is what drove him to give JC his core, debt. Honour bound to repay the Jiangs. And as the above clearly shows us, WWX really struggled with that. Struggled with the fact he felt he had to pay them all back (when he never actually did, but we won't go into that here...) and trying to convince himself the golden core he worked so hard for wasn't even his to begin with.

It wasn't an easy decision to make for WWX. He's not some self-sacrificing idiot like some make him out to be. It's absolutely heartbreaking and I think this is all so often overlooked.

[mxtxfanatic]

Fanon post-canon Wei Wuxian: Why, I would never use the cultivation path that I created out of nothing unless it’s an emergency, because it’s “evil” and I’m a good guy now! It’s the sword life for me from now on!

Canon post-canon Wei Wuxian: Love Chenqing always being at my side. Lol, sword where?

[pakhnokh]

I was unable to comment on your posts on patreon, but saw your question in the reading commentary:

Ok so which one is it!? I feel confused because I know ExR makes the difference between Gui and Mo. I went to the official 7seas translation and in both cases they write "demonic"! (Vol.4 Page 83) which is unbelievable cause Wei Wuxian would never say that his path is the Mo Dao. I really wonder what the original text says.

I'd like to explain this! I think this is a translation inconsistency. In the original CN, Gui is a subset of Mo. Everyone including WWX refers only to Mo Dao in terms of the cultivation path. It's the Dark Path in contrast to the mainstream, "righteous" Bright Path.

There's four types of evil beings in MDZS:

妖 yao: made from living non-human beings. The living Goddess Statue, Tortoise Xuanwu, both count in this category

魔 mo: made from living humans (living puppets). There aren't any examples I can think of in MDZS (Song Lan wasn't puppeted until after he's dead, right?) but, this is the word most commonly translated as "demon".

鬼 gui: made from dead humans. This is the classic WWX stuff like Wen corpse army etc. Translated as "ghost" usually

怪 guai: made from dead non-humans. I also don't think there's any examples in MDZS.

But importantly, WWX listed all these in Cloud Recesses under the same cultivation path, 魔道 Mo Dao. All are subcategories of Mo Dao. So he is indeed cultivating Mo Dao knowingly. It's up to interpretation, but personally I think that makes his moral character very interesting OvO

Ok thank you so much! With your permission I'll give an introduction to those who don't know what this is all about.

I'm reading Mo Dao Zu Shi again and making a commentary on my Patreon page. (It is public by the way, so everybody can see it)

The quoted part in this ask refers to my question regarding the things Wei Wuxian says to Lan Wangji when the latter visits him on Burial Mounds and they part:

A moment later, Wei WuXian spoke up, “Lan Zhan, you asked me if I intended on staying like this from now on. To be honest, I’d like to ask something as well. What can I do apart from this?”

He continued, “Give up the demonic path? Then what about the people on this mountain?

“Give them up? I won’t be able to do it. I believe that if you were I, you wouldn’t be able to do it either.”

He continued, “Nobody can give me a nice, broad road to walk on. A road where I could protect those I want to protect without having to cultivate the ghostly path.”

(This is ExR translation version. The official 7seas uses "demonic" in both cases. Reading the ExR translation, the difference between demonic and ghostly path has been made by the translators in other parts of the text. For example, Wei Wuxuan saying that he never practiced the demonic path, or Lan Wangji telling Wei Wuxian that the ghostly path harms body and soul etc. So I was confused - why would Wei Wuxian himself call the methods he used as demonic? I was sure that this is a fault in the translation or maybe me not understanding something in Chinese culture)

So back to the things you wrote, fist of all thank you so much for finding the time to answer me! I really wonder why you couldn't comment on Patreon itself? Public posts are available to comments both for paid and free members.

Now, if I understand correctly what you say, "Mo Dao" is a large umbrella term containing all types of "dark" cultivation that are not the "righteous" canon cultivation method practiced by all sects? Meaning that both what Wei Wuxian does (Gui Dao) and what Xue Yang did (Mo Dao) can be considered "Mo Dao"?

Then, in this case, how does using this term works for Wei Wuxian's benefit if he wants to stress out that he uses the ghost path and not the demon path (meaning that he specifically uses dead corpses and not living humans?) isn't it also justifies the false rumors spread about him as being the "mo dao zu shi?" I remember reading in other explanations that the whole thing of him being called this way was the misunderstanding and the spread of false info about what Wei Wuxian actually practiced.

So now I'm even more confused hahahaha if you have a further explanation I'd be so grateful!! <33

I'd really just prefer if all the translation left the terms in pinyin. (yao, mo, gui and guai) so that this confusion wouldn't exist :(

Btw, I think that what Xue Yang did to the townspeople in Yi City was considered mo dao, right? He sprinkled the corpse poisoning powder on them making them into living corpses for Xiao Xingchen to kill.

"guai: made from dead non-humans. I also don't think there's any examples in MDZS." - does it only include animals and plants, or objects as well? Does what Wei Wuxian did to the paper puppets in Yi City count in this category?

[joys-of-everyday]

On the fifty shades of morally grey

So quick thoughts on how MXTX writes morally grey.

Sorry, I mean, excessively long meta post on how MXTX writes morally grey. Light spoilers for all three books.

A gazillion caveats to begin with. Firstly, I don’t want to argue about whether character x is morally good, bad, grey, pink or whatever. In my books, arguing about whether someone is or is not morally grey is like arguing whether a colour is green, blue, teal, or turquoise – we’re arguing definitions. To add to that, I’m not saying that concepts like ‘this person is overall good’ doesn’t exist, but I would posit that a morally unquestionable person does not exist. Secondly, I also don’t want to pass moral judgements on any of the characters. That’s for a different post. I strictly want to focus on the storytelling techniques that make the reader think ‘hang on a second, are they good or bad?’. Thirdly, this whole post is mainly based on How Arcane Writes MORAL AMBIGUITY (9 Methods, 4 Rules) - YouTube. Great video, great channel (no knowledge of Arcane required). Would recommend if you are interested in story writing techniques!

1) The information gap and the poor narrator

Best example is Shen Jiu from SVSSS. We barely know anything about Shen Jiu. Almost everything we know is from SQQ’s notoriously unreliable perspective, so we’re left to fill in the gaps ourselves. Depending on exactly how those gaps are filled, you can get two completely different people. E.g. Did he have designs of NYY, or was he just ridiculously misunderstood? Who knows! We’re never told. Even if we were told, we should doubt it because it’s SQQ telling us.

2) 4D characterisation

Schnee’s video goes into this in more details, but this is where you build two narratives on top of one another. Best example is Jin Guangyao from MDZS. Is he an underdog who did what he could out of his situation and tried his best to be a better person working for the good of the common people? Or is he a selfish, manipulative, ambitious snake who at every stage pretends to be good in order to win the favour of those around him? The point is that both narratives make sense in the story. There are moments that lean more one way or another, but you can never quite pin him down completely.

3) Moments of weakness

Best example is Xie Lian from TGCF. On the whole, XL is a wonderful human being who you 100% want to root for. Except… there was that one time he made a mistake. He let his hurt and pain overcome him; he became hurtful himself. The point here is to add in just a few ‘moments’ which fundamentally impacts how the rest of the world perceives them from that point forwards. They are forever trying to redeem themselves, forever weighed down by what is a tiny proportion of their life. The underlying question is ‘is a moment of weakness a moral failure?’

Another good example is Qi Rong from TGCF. On the whole, he’s a piece of s***. But then there are moments when he’s a genuinely good father to Guzi, and that’s confusing.

4) Well-intentioned idiot

Trying to do the right thing and absolutely failing. Best example is Wei Wuxian from MDZS. His intentions are always good. There are extremely few moments where he is selfish or overly cruel. He is always fighting for justice, always self-sacrificing, always kind. And yet the outcome of his actions is pretty bad. The underlying question is ‘should you judge a person based on their intent, or on the consequences of their actions?’

(btw the name of the method is from schnee’s video. No shade on WWX. He is very smart… well, unless it comes to LWJ’s feelings.)

5) Excuses

Yes, they’re bad. But we feel sorry for them! Almost everyone fits into this boat, because doesn’t MXTX love trauma dumping? As one example, let’s look at Jiang Cheng from MDZS. JC’s behaviour towards WWX is pretty bad on its own. But given the context of his childhood being compared to him, of having his self-esteem brutally crushed by both parents? Knowing how much he’s done and sacrificed for him, how much he truly cared for him as family? It hits different.

A small point: ‘excuses aren’t enough’ we say a lot (and I agree, to an extent). But compare, for example, Jin Guangshan vs Xue Yang. JGS seems to be a power-hungry asshole for absolutely no reason. On the other hand, put XY in different circumstances and we feel like he might have been a better person. Just as food for thought, there was a Japanese monk Honen (1133-1212) who said: ‘The good person can reach the Pure Land, so of course the evil person can as well’. The point being that the people who struggle with anger and hate because of their circumstances are most in need of salvation.

6) World building and presenting hard questions

What is acceptable sacrifice in war?

Is it okay to make a super dangerous weapon for the sake of deterrence?

How much personal responsibility does someone hold for a lifetime of circumstances pushing them towards a morally questionable path?

What are the responsibilities of a leader – to do what is right, or to do what is best for their people?

The world of MDZS is imperfect. It’s full of horrors and disasters, as well as a mob of outsiders all trying to impart their opinions despite knowing little about the situation. An imperfect world presents unanswerable questions. We see the characters struggle with these questions, come to decisions, and make mistakes, all naturally arising within the complex world that’s been presented. 

TGCF does this most explicitly. We literally have Kemo and Pei Xiu arguing about the ethics of war and XL concluding that it’s a Hard Question. In fact, every backstory of every Heavenly Official presents a new Hard Question. I don’t know if I like this method over the more subtle style of MDZS, but I have Thoughts about the storytelling styles of both (long story short, I love them both for different reasons).

7) Worlds are colliding

A slightly complicated method that takes a huge amount of set up. To summarise, set up two arcs that we the reader both feel invested in. Then set up a point where the ‘good’ outcome of one is the ‘bad’ outcome of another. For MDZS, we have 1) JC and WWX’s brotherhood arc. 2) WWX standing up for justice arc. They’re both merrily developing all the way through the conflict with the Wens… right until the moment WWX has to make a choice: stand up for justice and leave JC behind, or to fulfil his promises to JC and turn a blind eye to the injustices against the Wens. The decision is a lose-lose scenario because of the way these arcs have been set up.

8) Spectrums, Spectrums, we love Spectrums

Gongyi Xiao is a cinnamon roll. As is Wen Ning and Quan Yizhen. Meanwhile, the Old Palace Master? Literally no redeeming qualities. Wen Chao? Absolute scum. Then there’s everyone lying somewhere in between. We like Lan Wangji more than JC (I think that seems to be the case for most people?) but we certainly like JC more than JGS. Having a spectrum of morality is important because it gives us reference points to contrast and compare. It also emphasises the moral greyness of everything, because sure, Mu Qing isn’t a noodle like Shi Qingxuan, but is he worse than White No Face?

9) Spectrums aren’t enough – adding depth

Almost all of WWX’s moral ambiguity comes from the fact he has hard decisions to make. And for each of these decisions, the outcome is murky. He developed a new technique to fight against the Wens, but at what cost later down the line? He defended the Wens and gave them a few years of life, but was it worth it?

Compare with JGY. JGY does a lot of good. He also does a lot of bad. The magnitude of both lists is ridiculous. Sure, you wouldn’t usually find someone who’s killed most of their family members in any way likable, but how often do you come across someone who literally ended a war?

So one way of creating moral ambiguity is to make each decision difficult, but another way to go about it is to just… make them do loads of things. Like loads of things. Good things, bad things, all the in between things. Judging each thing is not that hard, but then trying to judge the overall person based on it is extremely difficult.

10) Pulling from the real world

Often, moral questions in fiction is hard because (surprise, surprise) moral questions are just hard full stop. Idk enough Chinese history and culture to accurately pin down all of MXTX’s references, but things like stupid misunderstands leading to conflict, poverty and inequality, less than ideal family situations, the horrors of war… these are all things that happen irl. No matter how fantastical the setting, grounding moral conflicts in reality makes us feel more emotional and invested.

Anyway, I hope that was an enjoyable rundown! This is an imperfect list, so comments, criticisms, suggestions greatly appreciated!