#citation discourse

[theonethatyoudreamof]

Speaking my truth:

APA is the most egregious, ugly, useless, and incompetent citation style and it should rot in a very deep dark dirt filled hole

[raguonmynieceandnephew]

THEY DIDN'T FISH HIM OUT. HE WAS SUMMONED. NAH BITCH, WHAT YALL NOT GONNA DO IS MESS WITH MY MAN.

[everliving-everblaze]

I also added a section on Fanlore about cross-platform conflict in the KotLC fandom, since I feel we have a lot more of it than a lot of other fandoms. This is something I've experienced a lot, but mostly from outside observation, so I'd love if anyone wanted to offer corrections or additional information.

[kiwisandpearls]

it’s super annoying when people will drop serious accusations against a person and then will not elaborate :/

like “this person is a bad person btw” and then they’ll just…not elaborate on it? Like, what am I supposed to do with that info? You’re not showing me any proof you’re just telling me they’re a bad person and expecting me to take your word for it.

[the-gayest-sky-kid]

Hi bestie! The red and purple ones haven't fucked on account of they were raised as siblings ♡ not that that stops everyone

im going to be honest i have no idea if youre being passive aggressive or not anon 💔 but in the interest of assuaging my mental illness... heres some explanations of why they in particular are not, the concept of martial/sect siblings in general, as well as some gripes cn fandom has with this misunderstanding

and for fun heres some meta both about beating the incest allegations and what makes their relationship interesting, which made forcing myself to read up on this a lot more fun

and as an extra funny note. heres this excerpt from the (english) mdzs fandom wiki

Wei Wuxian is Jiang Cheng's former senior martial brother.

[pomelowed]

Just went down a rabbit hole yippee!!

I follow this blog called @/my-kawaii--world because I like the aesthetics and this post came across my feed: https://www.tumblr.com/my-kawaii--world/753409702367477760/hey-this-site-seems-sketchy-af-as-a-lot-of-the?source=share

Those stuffed animals were so cute that I immediately went to the store to order one! But before I did I, like I usually do when finding new online stores, looked around to see what else they sell. I like doing this just to see if the items are really mismatched or if the other listings seem to be lower quality than what I'm trying to order. Well, the store, called Lavender Creations, seemed to offer a lot of items I saw on places like Alibaba or Temu. In fact, the mushroom purse they sell is one my sister bought off of Aliexpress. No worries though, artists oftentimes get their creations ripped off by dropshippers and their ilk so wasn't a death knell but definitely was a red flag. This led me to check it on scamadvisor and whoo boy.

It scored 36/100. The site has existed for years and it has a SSL but I wasn't worried about the site being a scam that'll steal my credit card info, I was just trying to figure out if it was a dropshipper and welp. One of the negative reviews stated that the supposed flash sale was in fact a daily sale (and I can confirm since me writing this post took long enough that the sale that was supposed to end at midnight is still ongoing despite the fact it's currently 1 AM). That was a dead ringer that this site most definitely wasn't the original creator or at least someone reliable. So, google lens it was for a reverse image search aaaaand

yeah ok unsurprising. Will say, none of these listings have the black & white one I was going to buy and that the dandelionevine was the only other one to sell the white version but also it's selling them for $60 which is way more than lavender constellation that sells them for $44 or $30 with the "sale". Also, amazon link is dead unfortunately because it supposedly was being sold for $25, the cheapest yet.

Now, if this was simply just a case of dropshipping then I would've left it at my reblog I made warning others about it BUT there's that first listing, Plush This?? They're the reason I'm making this post.

As far as I can tell they're the original creators! Awesome, great I can purchase him from here even if it isn't the b&w version I wanted, let me just read the full listing to see the specifics,,,,,, wtf

WHAT??? WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT WAS DESIGNED BY AI????? THIS IS A CAN OF WORMS I DIDNT PLAN TO ENCOUNTER????? Apparently, that's their whole thing: let AI design a plush and then recreate it which is honestly a really cool concept if AI wasn't known for literally stealing others' work (I'm ignoring the fact it would also mean it takes designers' jobs, which is also a shame).

If the AI was ethically trained then I suppose it counts as an original work? It's a bit of a grey area since no one actually owns the likeness of a cat (not yet at least) and plenty of artists create their own works by referencing others. So, who's to say an AI doing the same thing is unethical? I mean, there's a real human effort being put into realizing an imaginary item because this doesn't seem to be the usual AI scam of rendering an image and pretending it's genuine to generate purchases. But that ignores the fact there are limitations to artists on what they can produce (copyright laws exist and fair use clauses do too). So AI shouldn't be exempt from giving its fair dues to the people it should be "inspired" by and it should also be punished if it steals like a human does. Plus, the current state of AI is a lot more like replication than anything near inspiration so really that question cannot be applied in the current generation of AI.

There's one giant elephant in the room I haven't addressed yet: who is to say that the cat plush isn't based on some niche Etsy creator who had their creation ripped off by the AI model? Idk how it was taught so idk if the images were ethically sourced and thus if my money is going into a design that hasn't been stolen in some way. I'm sure they gave the AI a bunch of reference images of a Devon Rex from different angles and told it to make it a stuffed animal. But was the AI fed ethically sourced references of what is a plush? Or was it given Etsy and told to go ham in copying everything??

And, if the AI model WAS trained with stolen images, how awful really is the dropshipping aside from the ungodly prices?? I mean, my usual issues with dropshipping are: they try to sell junk for obscene prices, original works are reproduced without permission, & the profits of the original creator are stolen. But which of those issues are applicable in this scenario? The original work is seemingly high quality as implied with the reviews I see on Lavender Constellations & Plush This, so not all listings are churning out low quality crap, meaning the first issue is resolved. I mean, if people are receiving quality items that they feel is worth the price then there isn't any issue in that department. But those last two issues I have are the kicker, who is the original creator in this scenario?? Is it Plush This or is it the amalgamation of artists that go uncredited?? If the former then, yeah, these sites should not be selling their work. Yet, the latter seems much more in line with what I know about how AI is trained: unabashedly scanning and copying others' works without consent or compensation. Thus, I don't really feel too badly about it being resold on so many stores. It's already stolen work so they're all thieves to me.

Man, idk. It's unfortunate AI isn't simply a tool and the current state of things have festered and spread thanks to the lack of regulations. I imagine the AI models we have today that are made of stolen artworks will just be the concrete foundation and people wont see reparations for their work. Kinda one of those "them's the breaks (brakes?) kid" where laws will come into place that'll prevent AI from stealing others works. The question is will the people it already stole from be repaid? Or will they just have to live with the fact that the AI modules that are common use have stolen their work and wont stop continuing to profit off of that theft into the foreseeable future?

All of this is to say I'm not even sure if Plush This is the real creator!! I know I said I was almost certain they were but that's really only because the whole marketing scheme of their site is that the plushes they create are based off AI generated images and that kind of statement is too specific to only use as a selling point.... right?? Well let me start with this:

So, yes, according to Leila Wang, creator of PlushThis (why no spaces?), everything is AI to physical. Grand. Don't get me wrong, that's a real skill thats being just wasted imo, but back on track. Here's the website for you to check it out yourself: https://plushthis.com/ also they use MidJourney according to this article from last year: https://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/503245/introducing-plushthis-worlds-first-ai-generated-plushies-brand-revolutionizing-stuffed-animal-design

Scamadvisor gives it a 90/100 but only gives one review as an example when most of the listings have reviews, which is odd. This part is literally just me putting on a tinfoil hat so take the bit with a grain of salt, but I think they're having their AI write their reviews. They're all very,,, bland? I don't know if anyone has played that website game called "Human or Not" but the reviews are giving AI. As an example, here's the listing for a dragon plush they have:

and then here's a comment under it

It's a strange mix up to have when it's very clearly white. Worth noting they also sell a green dragon plush.

Also, the rest of the comments tend to usually have a comment on how soft they are? And if not that then how high quality the fabric is. And they all have the same grammar with what I think the nail in the coffin being the fact not a single review has missed adding at least a period to the end of the last sentence. Yes, that level of proper grammar isn't uncommon,,,, but for every single review??? Yeah, I'm not buying it. All this added to the fact Scamadvisor only pulled one positive comment out this sea leads me to believe these aren't real reviews and are just HTML code or whatever tf.

Ok, whatever, site is faking reviews with AI and staged photos. Big whoop, just don't buy from them,,,, WELL this is all going back to how I'm not sure PlushThis is the real creator of that cat plush. Tbh what I think is happening is a mix of dropshipping and "orginal" plushes. Why?

This lil blurb states every first image listed is an AI generated image.

Let's look at this guy: https://plushthis.com/products/cute-rabbit-stuffed-animal?_pos=72&_sid=8df0505e5&_ss=r

There's only two images given and when I look him up in reverse image search:

Look at all those. PlushThis doesn't come up despite this image supposedly being AI.

This guy? https://plushthis.com/products/pink-black-racoon-stuffed-animal-toy?_pos=1&_sid=ffe901991&_ss=r

Yeah, only PlushThis matches.

So, what does this mean? I think it means that the cat more than likely IS a dropshipped item THAT THEY DIDNT CREATE??? Which is crazy because the blurb attached to it is one of the few times they mention in a listing that the stuffed animal started as an AI image. In fact, that blurb is what caused me to spiral down into this!! IT ALSO THROWS OUT MY PREVIOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT THE ETHICS OF ALL OF THIS!!! This isn't my only receipt as the cat that started this all is listed here: https://www.dscopilot.ai/products/1005006873166491

It states that the supplier is the whitebeard' store on aliexpress. Now, this could always be a ripoff of PlushThis' original creation but I doubt they're the original creators at this point. Since every creation's first image is AI, that either means they didn't share the AI image, their whole gimmick, or it wasn't designed by AI and thus couldn't provide a generated image. So, the next course of action was seeing if Taihua Toys Hong Kong Co, PlushThis' parent company, is related to any of the sellers on other sites and that's too tall of an order for me. That's a way bigger deep dive than I'm capable of in this moment, but if I ever do try and see if I can confirm my suspicions, I will reply to this. Hopefully soon since a lot of the sites listed when I reverse image searched the cat no longer have it for sale. Is it possibly a parent company trying to clean up the internet and make it less obvious the item is actually cheaply mass produced?? Who knows, not me.

[noxious-fennec]

I think "canonicity" is the stupidest thing ever, in completed works at least. Interpretation has never been and never will be confined to the realm of what the author intends by virtue of it's 1 story with a limited # of creators—Authorial intent, observing subtext, personal Interpretations, and opinions on how the work could've differed are all part of engaging with the text. Putting "canonicity" above everything else, either to celebrate or disparage a certain reading, is counterproductive to engaging with the text. It also heavily relies on the critic's definition of canon—which varies wildly and, depending on the case, may erase important parts of the text.

Stop idolising authors, regarding their word as gospel, and seeking their validation via canon in order to feel confident in your reading. You can talk the merit of readings but its pointless to argue about their correctness via whether or not the author agrees with you personally.

The author can and will have bad takes.

[gibbearish]

discourse protip: if you made an entire blog dedicated to telling a group of people they either don't exist or don't actually experience oppression, you're probs on the wrong side of things. just by and large

[okayomen]

Actually its supposed to be innocent until proven guilty in any state that isn’t fascist. Information shouldn’t be “known to the public” before the case is over, assuming you mean the multiple documentaries released before this fell out of the publics eye.

[dankovskaya]

Set my timer to work on this essay for 1 hour expecting to do the adhd thing where now that I'm in it I'm down to keep going for at least another hour only to find that I really would quite like to stop now

[instigmia]

Lol wtf. Landlords are giving people places to live without having to commit to buying a house. People dont all want to buy houses. Most want to rent. But no go ahead and act like giving people a place to live is soooo evil. You'd rather people be homeless or stuck in a place they bought and can't afford for years? What a clown.

A) "giving" people places to live implies that "rent" is a synonym for "borrow"

B) how's that privatized fire department workin' out for ya over in Theoreticalville?

C) much like the rest of crapitalism, you can jigger and finagle the words until they sound appealing, then accuse the opposite side of supporting a hypothetical that actually occurs when your thing is put into practice--I mean, really? "There's gonna be homeless?" Nibba, there are homelesses now and crapitalists already complain that they're all over the place. Landlords exist, yet homelessness is not cured. Any more bright ideas, middle-school flunky?

[oceans-swim]

they say that history repeats itself in cycles i could walk you through the next ten years with my eyes closed (empires rising to scrape the sky then wondering why (when the sky falls it leaves a crater a mile wide)) shit fuck goddammit i'm tongue-tied

(struck dumb under the notion of a nation in decline no dough for gas so go back to the end of the bread line keep going to work keep paying your rent, please, keep buying your TVs on a three year lease! keep voting for people who don't give a fuck if you freeze to death in the street, keep feeding your species to the priest of the beast and pray (that you're big enough in your life to maybe afford a coffin one day))

oh, you'll be a willing slave to the global lobotomy god save the Economy and whoa!

narcissist cookbook was right when they said this castle of rats (i mean a million of em) butcherin eachother tryna get a window open (burying the new dead beneath the old dead) scurrying for any crack in the wall bigger than their own head

(and this castle of rats it's worse than all that there isn't a thing in this world can make me go back there isn't any meaning in the metaphor i'm weaving a series of words that hurt me more the more that i repeat em and)

one two three deep breath and hold it, three two one and let it go. i keep crawling onwards even though there's No road cut your knees to shit don't scream just hold it whoaa

[trikaranos]

TRIKARANOS CHAPTER I: S·T·T·L

TRIKARANOS is a comic about Crassus until it isn't. Intended for an adult audience.

⭐ Trikaranos will always be free to read. In the near future, you’ll have the option to support this comic & my ability to spend time making it (I Am Extremely Fucking Broke And Have Bills To Pay etc etc) through Patreon! currently, I have a tip jar!

⭐ There is no set update schedule (chapters vary in length and will be posted as I finish working on them)

⭐ alternative places to read it (coming soon!)

CREDITS all additional art used are in the public domain, and the specific images used are open access, etc

🍊the first collage panel is combination of: Plate 113: Greeks Battling the Trojans (from Ovid's Metamorphoses), Antonio Tempesta / The Trojans pulling the wooden horse into the city, Giulio Bonasone (after Francesco Primaticcio) / Terracotta hydria displaying Achilles waiting to ambush Triolos and Polyxena 🍊the second collage panel is: The Lictors bringing Brutus the bodies of his Sons, Jacques Louis David / the paint over of Brutus executing is own sons is my own work based on the composition of this relief of Brutus and condemning his sons to death. 🍊I also used my own art: a panel from the Prologue, and my own illustration of Brutus with the bodies of his sons

📖 PREVIOUS CHAPTER | START HERE | ToC (under construction!)

UNDER THE CUT creator’s commentary, ancient citations, whatever else seems relevant. ideally, this is optional! you shouldn’t need the citations for it to make sense as it unfolds since it’s a comic and a story first and foremost, but it’s here if you’re curious about something or want to see where the inspiration is coming from!

I'm so fucking normal about Crassus and his family (<<< this is a lie)

Marcus Crassus was the son of a man who had been censor and had enjoyed a triumph; but he was reared in a small house with two brothers. His brothers were married while their parents were still alive, and all shared the same table, which seems to have been the chief reason why Crassus was temperate and moderate in his manner of life. When one of his brothers died, Crassus took the widow to wife, and had his children by her, and in these relations also he lived as well-ordered a life as any Roman.

Plutarch, Crassus

like, it actively fucks me up that this is something that's survived about him for over 2,000 years. they all ate together at the same table. Jesus Christ.

so! Crassus' dad! Publius Licinius Crassus (consul 97) fought on the side of Cn. Octavius (consul 87) in the Bellum Octavianum, and it didn't go great for him.

Crassus: A Political Biography, B.A. Marshall

also. currently, if you look Publius Licinius Crassus up on wikipedia for an overview, his page lists his son (and also my main character for this comic) with the cognomen Dives, which is in-fucking-correct.

Marcus Crassus and the Late Roman Republic, Allen Mason Ward

and to circle back to houses and meals shared with family, some citations that made me feel some kind of way when I read them

Marcus Crassus and the Late Roman Republic, Allen Mason Ward

finally, there is discourse or whatever on the placement of the sons of Publius Licinius Crassus. Crassus is the baby brother here simply because I'm writing this story and I get to pick the themes, but also because no one has provided a solid enough argument for him being the second eldest son that I'm willing to buy into with enthusiasm, and I'm more inclined towards G. Sampson's conclusion on the matter.

Defeat of Rome: Crassus, Carrhae, and the Invasion of the East, Gareth C. Sampson

and while I'm just kind of talking about stuff that I read that I enjoyed, this article by Martin Stone lives in my head rent free

A Year of One's Own: Dating the Praetorship of Marcus Crassus, Martin Stone

[teh-nos]

i had a thought (oh no!) on the "odin stole baby loki" discourse and why i find it so hard to believe that baby was just having a nice unattended playtime in the snow. which is i think it's that most people [citation needed, i suppose] in fandom interpreted from the angle of "colonial oppressor picks up local baby and steals it" which is a thing that happens irl so yeah i get why people see it that way. but i think i look at it from the "someone left the disabled baby out to die :(" angle, which is also a thing that happens too often but the difference between those two takes plus fandom being generally nicer to the jotuns than the movies were maybe pushes people towards the former interpretation?

[lizardsfromspace]

We still think of celebrity callout posts as these sprawling documents with link after link, but increasingly, they involve no citations or links at all. Just people asking "is [name] a bad person?", being told "yes", and saying, wow, I'll make sure not to support them anymore. Which is excusable if they know each other, but people will just ask the screaming void of the internet "can you decide if this person is evil or not for me?" and then accept the yes/no answer they get unquestioningly

This makes it difficult to find The Proof, since it's so often a trail of vagueposts about someone's vagueposts of a discourse they witnessed second hand, and when you get to the source, it's often just embarrassing. "Everyone is doing this" gradually turning into "some people are doing this" until you discover the whole furor was sparked by...some random person's tweet with one or two likes. Days of rage based on something very few people, including most of the people angry about it, ever saw. That's part of why people have gone complete citationless, but also let's face it, when people with a deep parasocial hatred of a celebrity look into them and don't discover anything, they didn't go "ah well, nothing to see here". They would make shit up or take minor incidents out of context to make up a narrative anyway. Fully removing the sourcing and making it purely about vibes really streamlines the process

But I think it's more fundamental since in my experience - both personal and witnessed - people who do this genuinely just seem confused when people ask for sources. They get hostile to the idea that people won't just accept that someone's an irredeemable monster off being told they are with no elaboration. It's nice to think people are so trusting they've naively forgotten that, y'know, people can lie or be wrong, but really, they know, they just don't care. Because these people by and large don't have any real beliefs beyond Disliking The Same Famous Person, and will accept anything said about them into their mythology, and only spend time in a circle of other people obsessed with the same person & don't realize no one knows the mythology but them, and so don't really get why you'd ask for a single citation. What, do you support them? You monster. You're supposed to hear that, yes, they are evil, and then spend time in a bubble of constant dislike of them, where you commiserate with the other obsessive stalkers about how awful it is that pop singers are mad when you obsessively stalk them

[takashi0]

Asks that were definitely not sent by someone with cp in their hard drive.

https://www.tumblr.com/damnfandomproblems/755353356523962368/httpswwwtumblrcomdamnfandomproblems755212233?source=share

Not OP but as a newly ex proshipper due the rise of real genuine, "maps"/pedos/the likes in the community due to pro para/radqueers coming into and just being accepted into community with no pushback and taking over the tags to talk about their pedophilia, how proud of being pedophile they are, talking about real kids and calling them 'irl loli/shotas", etc, and turning proship into community no longer based in fiction but in reality too (now providing antis right and making the tags/community unsafe for csam survivors), I have no doubt that OP is talking about real pedos

Posting as a response to a previous ask.