Sun Myung Moon questioned in 1982 in court about marriages and children
PART 2
ANTHONY COLOMBRITO [a UC member. The UC funded his case against Kelly]
v.
GALEN G. KELLY, et al
[U.S. District Court Judge Richard Owen]
[Kelly’s lawyer was John T. DeGraff Jr. of Albany]
United States District Court, Southern District, New York
79 Civ. 6205 (RO)
May 27, 1982
This is the only time Sun Myung Moon was questioned in court in the U.S. His lawyers tried to stop the questioning.
Moon was subpoenaed to testify in the nonjury trial of a $9-million claim filed by one of his followers, Anthony Colombrito, 30, of Brick Town, N.J. Colombrito has charged that Galen Kelly of Kingston, N.Y., kidnaped him in 1979 and attempted to “deprogram” him from the teachings of the Unification Church.
See here for more background to the case. LINK
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continued from Part 1
page 177
Q. When did you start the Unification Church, Reverend Moon?
A. In May 1954.
Q. Where did you start it?
A. In Seoul, Korea.
Q. When did you first come to America?
A. In 1963. [He first arrived in San Francisco, U.S., on February 12 or 13, 1965]
Q. When were you first married, Reverend Moon?
MR. GUTMAN: I object to the relevancy of that, your Honor.
THE COURT: How is that relevant, Mr. DeGraff?
MR. DeGRAFF: Well, I believe, your Honor, in the teachings of the Unification Church, that Reverend Moon and his wife represent the true parents in Unification theology and at least they represent the true parents as to many of the members of the church.
As I understand it, the role of the true parents is to help the restoration of man to his original state before the fall of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden and that they do this by following the example set by the true parents who are able to restore them to their original state before the original sin because they lead perfect lives and that further in his talk with God, he was told to have twelve children; that it has been an embarrassment to Reverend Moon because he has admittedly had one marriage in Korea which ended in a divorce.
It is my understanding that he had two other marriages in Korea which are not included in the theology of the church and it is my further understanding that he has had other children than the thirteen he now accounts for —
MR. STILLMAN: Can we get an offer of proof on that, your Honor? Terrible, terrible, terrible, to allow him to do that.
MR. DeGRAFF: It is also my feeling that, as the role of true parents is superior to that of the role of the real parents which creates one of the basic problems, as I see it, between the church and the society and that’s sort of a convoluted reasoning of what I am driving at.
MR. GUTMAN: I would characterize it not only as convoluted but as impertinent in both senses of the word.
It is not pertinent to the issues and it is an impertinence to raise such issues.
If the defendant is offering the proposition that even if true a man who has had multiple marriages is somehow to be impeached, that his testimony is not to be credited, that somehow it can be used against him, that is an alarming proposition.
(continued on next page)
Page 180
THE COURT: No, I don’t think he is offering it for that.
MR. GUTMAN: I don’t understand what he is offering it for and what’s more, your Honor, it is not — this is not from Mr. DeGraff’s mouth an offer of proof. This is his “I understand that,” and “perhaps there is information to the effect that,” none of which is before the Court, none of which is in evidence and therefore what we have done is we have had Mr. DeGraff color the record as though it were a predicate to a question which is itself not only an intrusion upon the privacy of a witness, it is immaterial and irrelevant to the issues in this case but is offensive in every sense of the word.
The number of divorced people in this country who might find themselves with their status for veracity or otherwise impeached because they have been through a divorce would be staggering. It is an inappropriate line of inquiry and —
THE COURT: I think it’s a question of whether the witness’ representations as to his status in the course of espousing his theology or in fact different than what the fact is which I assume counsel means to urge then on the Court that it casts some question on the beliefs that are held as to the role of a true parent or a real parent vis-a-vis the young people that are recruited into the church.
Mr. DeGraff, do I state your position —
MR. DE GRAFF: Yes, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. On that basis, I will overrule the objection. It has nothing to do with a predicate. It has to do with a comparison of the teachings and the fact to determine whether the beliefs are truly held and espoused.
MR. GUTMAN: Is it then the predicate for such a question that a human being, albeit one who believes he is in contact with God and God’s prophets, must be — have been perfect and made no mistakes?
THE COURT: It is a question of what the representation has been. No, not perfect.
MR. GUTMAN: There are no representations before the Court against which to compare the answers that might be elicited from the witness.
THE COURT: I think we have had testimony of witnesses as to what they understood upon coming into the church Reverend Moon represented to them. He was in their lives as their spiritual parent.
MR. GUTMAN: The words spiritual parents
Page 182
have indeed been used but I recall nothing in the record which would indicate that anyone said that he or she heard a representation from Reverend Moon as to how many times he had been married and if so what relevance that would have to this lawsuit.
THE COURT: I think one witness did, as a matter of fact. Didn’t one witness testify about nothing about one divorce? I think one witness did.
…
THE COURT: It seems to me that if a spiritual leader of a church represents to his followers that he has a certain function as their spiritual parents and that he has a certain function as a purity as a spiritual parent, that that pronouncement is thrown into some question if it turns out that it isn’t so. That has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with sheer appraisal of the sincerity of the beliefs and the circumstances under which they are propounded.
MR. GUTMAN: I point out to your Honor that you have just stated an alarming proposition. That if a man claims to be pure and therefore people ought to follow his example, that it is the proposal of this Court to tolerate and sanction and participate in a line of questioning as to the purity of the person.
I would suggest —
THE COURT: No. I am not doing that at all.
MR. GUTMAN: That’s what you just said, with most respect.
THE COURT: Then you misunderstood me. What I am saying if there has been an announcement, writing or speech or otherwise, that he is not a multi-divorced person and it turns out that he in fact is, it seems to me that has bearing in a number of directions in this case. That’s all I am saying. Nothing to do with religion at all.
All right. I’ll overrule the objection.
MR. DE GRAFF: Maybe I can start all over again.
Q. Reverend Moon, please accept my apologies for pronunciation here. But was your first wife’s name Sang Ik Choi? [It was Seon-gil Choi – Sang Ik Choi was a male in the 36 couples.]
A. Yes, that’s right. [INCORRECT. It was Seon-gil Choi.]
Q. And when did you marry her?
A. In 1944.
Q. And did you have any children by her?
A. Yes.
Q. How many?
…
A. Two. [FALSE STATEMENT. He had Sung-Jin Moon with her in April 1946 and Hee-jin Moon with Myung-hee Kim in August 1955.]
Q. Were they both boys. Reverend Moon?
A. I have one boy but the second one is deceased. [Hee-jin Moon died in August 1969.]
Q. Reverend Moon, did you subsequently marry Young Hi Kim? [Myung-hee Kim, the mother of Hee-jin Moon.]
…
A. No. I did not marry to her. [He may have married her on June 30, 1955.]
Q. Did you have a son by her, Reverend Moon?
A. Yes, I met her during Korean War.
Q. I believe my question was, did he have a child or a son by her.
MR. GUTMAN; Your Honor, I thought the line of inquiry was addressed to how many times he was married. Now the answer is he never married this lady. Whether or not she gave birth to a child seems to me irrelevant to the proceeding.
THE COURT: How is that irrelevant.
MR. DE GRAFF: I don’t know quite what he means by he never married her.
MR. GUTMAN: I think that means that he never went through a marriage ceremony. That’s my understanding of the English language.
THE COURT: Unless you can give me some showing of relevance to this. I’ll sustain the objection.
MR. DE GRAFF: Your Honor, it was my understanding that he was not only married to her but he had a son by her.
Page 186
MR. GUTMAN: Now you are testifying. The witness has said no. You saying yes doesn’t make it so.
MR. DE GRAFF: I know that, Mr. Gutman.
MR. GUTMAN: If you have other proofs, do what you have to do with it. Don’t argue with the witness.
MR. DE GRAFF: My point is he denied marrying her but he seemed to intimate that he did have a child by her by his answer.
MR. GUTMAN: I beg your pardon, Mr. DeGraff.
There is no such intimation. The Court has not ruled on than question yet. There is no intimation in the record.
THE COURT: It seems to me if he wasn’t married to her the next question is not relevant to our inquiry in this case.
MR. DE GRAFF: I think the relevance, your Honor, bears on his role as the true parent and I think it is very material because the true parents are the models of perfection or all the members of the Unification Church and through following and modeling their lives after the true parent, they can reach the restoration which is one of the three big principles of the Unification Church theology.
…
THE COURT: The objection to the last question is overruled. You may answer.
(Record read)
THE COURT: The question was answered by MR. DeGRAFF:
Q. Did you divorce your first wife, Reverend Moon?
…
A. I divorced her upon her initiative because she was somewhat not familiar with my religious belief.
Q. In what year was that, Reverend Moon?
A. In 1955. [FALSE. Seon-gil Choi legally divorced SMM on January 8, 1957.]
Q. And you said, Reverend Moon, that she was not familiar with your religious way of life? Was that the reason?
A. Yes, because she had her own way of religion.
[Her grounds for divorce were Moon's adultery and illegitimate children – two were born in 1955. That is why Moon gave a false earlier date of 1955 for the divorce.]
Q. Were you ever married to a woman, Reverend Moon, known as Miss Kim?
MR. GUTMAN: I trust my continuing objection remains in the record, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, it does. I am permitting this because it seems to be appropriate, given the teachings of the Unification Church with regard to chastity, abstinence, etc., etc. This inquiry bears upon whether such beliefs are truly held and the comparison of what a leader does in comparison to what he imposes on his followers would shed, it seems to me, some light on that question.
…
MR. DeGRAFF: May I have the last question read back, please — I think I know it.
Q. The question was, I believe: Were you ever married to a woman known as Miss Kim?
A. I have never heard of someone by the name of Miss Kim, whom you are referring to. There are so many rumors against me by which I am suffering tremendously.
Page 190
Q. What is the name of your present wife, Reverend Moon?
THE INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon?
Q. What is the name of your present wife, Reverend Moon?
…
A. Hak Ja Han.
Q. You married her when she was 18 and you were 40, Reverend Moon?
MR. GUTMAN: Is that relevant, your Honor?
THE COURT: Is it relevant?
MR. DeGRAFF: Well, I think it goes to the same point I was going to.
MR. GUTMAN: Is it Mr. DeGraff’s argument that there is something immoral or reprehensible ~
THE COURT: I will sustain an objection to that.
Q. Reverend Moon, did you ever have a conversation with Jesus Christ where he told you to have twelve children to represent the twelve disciples?
A. I don’t understand where you had such notion.
Q. I assume your answer is no, Mr. Moon?
A. Jesus Christ didn’t tell me so.
…
Q. Reverend Moon, I don’t mean to repeat myself, but when was it you first came to America?
A. In 1965.
Q. What was the purpose of your visit to America?
A. I was on my way to visit forty countries around the world in order to find out holy places where I can pray to God.
Page 192
Q. At the time you first came to the United States of America was there any — withdraw that — was there any formal setup for the Unification Church in this country?
A. Yes, in San Francisco.
Q. Do you know approximately how many members there were in the United States in the Unification Church at the time you first came to American in 1965?
MR. GUTMAN: I object on grounds of relevance and materiality.
THE COURT: How is that relevant?
MR. DeGRAFF: I am now getting into the area of the Reverend Moon’s coming to the United States, the build-up of the church, fund raising and areas of that nature.
…
THE COURT: I will permit this question.
Go ahead.
A. I don’t have the exact number, but the regular members of my church wasn’t too great. I understand there maybe was 100 to 150, including the San Francisco area — in the whole area, including San Francisco.
Q. At this time that you had come to America in 1967, what methods had you been using in Korea to raise money for the Unification Church?
…
THE COURT: This had to do with how funds were raised in Korea?
…
MR. DeGRAFF: 1967, when he first came to this country.
MR. GUTMAN: The witness said 1965.
MR. DeGRAFF: Excuse me, 1965.
…
A. It was based on contributions.
Q. How many members, Reverend Moon, did you have in your church in Korea at that time?
…
THE WITNESS: I don’t have the exact number. It could be in tens of thousands.
Q. Reverend Moon, what methods did the Unification Church employ at that time to solicit contributions to the church?
MR. GUTMAN: Now we certainly have crossed the line, your Honor. How a church raises its money is the business of the church. If there is an allegation—
THE COURT: No. You see, you made it the business of this court by bringing a $9 million lawsuit claiming that Galen Kelly had no right to interfere with a young man who had been out selling flowers out of a bucket, after being a college graduate, for two years, how many times have I said, 8:00 in the morning until 11:00 o’clock at night, except weekends when he is out to 3:00.
You put that in issue by bringing a $9 million lawsuit. The fund raising methods, whether they were induced by brainwashing, were a subject of mind control, all of those things were raised by this lawsuit in which you said that Kelly by interfering with Colombrito’s doing this was in violation of his civil rights. You have put that in issue.
So what he is asking here is what kind of methods did Reverend Moon use in his church in Korea, to see whether he has the same methods in Korea that he has here.
Is that what you are saying?
MR. DeGRAFF: Yes.
MR. GUTMAN: Your Honor, it was not the plaintiff that raised the issues that you refer to.
With all due respect, it was yourself and Mr. DeGraff. You have taken judicial notice of a rather bizarre concept, over objection, that there is something called brainwashing. I had thought that judicial notice was taken of things like Thursday comes after Wednesday, not on controversial —
THE COURT: I don’t want to be misquoted because I am going to get uptight about it if I am. You and I discussed the fact that I was quoting you, and I think I corrected you once before when you misquoted me — I was taking judicial notice of what I read in the newspapers during the Korean War. I don’t want to be taken beyond that one step farther by anything you put on this record.
Let’s just get on with our trial. The objection is overruled.
What is the last question?
Q. I believe my last question was, back in 1965 what methods did the Unification Church use to solicit contributions.
A. Through voluntary activities of church members.
Q. Can you describe to me, Reverend Moon, what some of those activities were?
…
A. The fund raising activities were confined to the church itself, organized and carried out by church members themselves.
Q. Can you please, Reverend Moon, give me specific examples of what they did to raise money?
…
A. As in the case of other many churches, the contributions were offered right after Sunday prayer.
Q. To be more specific, Reverend Moon, did any members of your church in Korea, from the time it was formed up until 1965, engage in the selling of flowers or candy to raise money for the church?
…
A. No. The church operated without such activities.
...
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Sun Myung Moon had a girlfriend in 1941
The six ‘wives’ of Sun Myung Moon
Moon’s first wife, Choi Seon-gil, and Kim Deok-jin interviewed
The Choi family’s entanglements with Moon
Sun Myung Moon’s second wife – Kim Chong-hwa in Pyongyang
Sun Myung Moon’s third wife – Kim Myung-hee
The lie that Kim Myung-hee was raped in Japan
Sun Myung Moon’s fourth wife, Won-pok Choi
Hong Soon-ae, the mother of Hak Ja Han
Dong-sook, born in 1955 and listed as a ‘True Child’, was married to Sung-jin Moon
Sun Myung Moon’s secret love child – Mother Jones link
PART 1:
Sun Myung Moon questioned under subpoena in court in New York, May 1982
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