#dean's sexuality textually has nothing to do with cas

[the-rollerchloster]

Just feeling a little salty so I want to throw a thought out into the universe...

Has anyone ever considered that when you make your entire online personality about being anti something - by filling your blog with anti tags, or actively searching out posts/blogs to publicly berate - that you just look like a sore loser?

[charcubed]

Let's talk about Supernatural 15x07, "Last Call."

Or as I like to call it, "the episode that makes me go feral because it tells us so much about Dean's sexuality, character, and arc." 

YES others have written meta! YES I will talk about it myself for the satisfaction! I LOVE IT SO MUCH.

This post was originally a thread on Twitter and I am crossposting it to my blog.

Alt image IDs are included in that linked Twitter thread!

Join me on this journey.

What's the context of this episode? Dean's been kind of down/depressed, feeling hopeless in the face of the idea that they have to defeat God (and not really working towards that goal much), and he's mid-divorce with Cas. He goes out on this solo case to try to clear his head.

And he ends up at Swayze's Bar. 

 Look, there are many things to be said about this. Dean loves Patrick Swayze. Arguably has a CRUSH on Swayze. It's very tied up in Dean pretending not to like "chick flicks" but he secretly does, which is queer coding. This was a Choice™️.

Speaking of Choices™️: professional actors made many here. Deliberately. 

 Dean is smacked on the ass by a woman and then Lee smacks him on the ass too. Dean and Lee CONSTANTLY have physical familiarity and fond eye contact. I will limit myself to 1 paragraph about this lest I list it all.

My point is that I just really need every person to digest and accept the fact that this is textually bi Dean. Not subtext; it's TEXT. 

Dean and Lee had a relationship. Their history is alluded to in touch and in words. They had an orgy together. Dean's bisexuality is not repressed.

It's also now canon that Dean tries to hide that he can sing well. Most people don't know (like Sam) but some do (Lee). Hence "Eye of the Tiger" callback.

And so: that's also the implication for his sexuality. Dean singing ON STAGE with bi lighting is him being ready to be Out.

They dedicated an entire half an ep at minimum to emphasizing he's bi... and to Dean having a conversation with someone he (initially) trusts about potentially having a break from hunting, and what that could mean.

LEE: You're chasing missing persons, huh? I thought you'd be on to something bigger by now, like the Loch Ness Monster... Bigfoot.

DEAN: Trust me, uh, bigger doesn't always equal better. Besides, who's gonna look out after the little guy? God certainly isn't.

LEE: Damn, brother, that's dark.

DEAN: Yeah, it's been a rough, uh... it's been a rough decade, Lee.

LEE: Yeah.

DEAN: But that's a conversation for a different time, 'cause this, this right here, this is all right.

LEE: Well, I'm glad you approve. This is nothing you can't have, man.

DEAN: Oh, come on. Who's gonna kill the bad guys?

LEE: Somebody else. Dean, how many lives you think you saved, huh? Hundreds? Thousands? You deserve a break, bro. Hell, you might even deserve two.

"But Lee turns out to be a villain!" some might say. "Isn't the point that giving up hunting is bad?" 

Nope. 

Lee's a DARK MIRROR for Dean. He exists to exhibit the truths behind Dean's desires, and then what they'd look like if they turned bad. Take it from him: "I am you."

There are LAYERS here. You can't focus on the dark side and ignore the truths that take place in the (often bi) light. 

The singing? The conversations about taking a break? Throwing men out of the bar, which is framed heroically? "Road House rules" (another Choice™️)?

NONE of that was bad. It shows what Dean wants. 

Things only get bad–literally and visually–when Dean's tied up as Lee suddenly says wrong things in the dark. 

The contrast exists to show that maintaining Goodness is a choice, and Dean would have no problem upholding that.

LEE: It's called a marid. It's a freaky-looking little thing, isn't it? [Lee laughs, and Dean stares at him, incredulous] Ah. As long as you feed it, it gives you money, it gives you health, everything you dreamed of.

DEAN: And so, what, it just costs innocent lives?

LEE: Dean, you and I both know no one's innocent. After everything we've done, aren't... aren't we owed a little happiness, huh? Don't we deserve that much?

DEAN: Listen to yourself. "We're owed." "We deserve." Come on, man. You're not God. Hell, God's not even God.

LEE: Good or bad... the world doesn't care. No one cares, Dean.

DEAN: Well, I do.

LEE: Yeah. And that's what got you here. Now, takes a while to drain a man, but listen to me. Don't worry about it, all right? Don't worry because once you lose a couple of pints, you just fall asleep, and then it'll be over.

[Lee pats Dean on the shoulder]

DEAN: Lee.

LEE: This... this is not how I wanted this to go, Dean. When that blonde girl walked in here last night, I should've know, you know, Dean Winchester, the righter of wrongs, you were gonna keep digging, and you were gonna figure me out. And if it's got to be you or me, well, I got to pick me, man.

"No one cares, Dean."

"Well, I do."

It's a reminder to himself as much as it is to Lee. It's a re-centering of purpose that he sorely needs.

And what's also key? Lee is human, but is now a "monster" in Dean's words. Because Lee lost his ability to care, Dean can't abide by that.

(Side note: bonus for the fact that Lee dies up against a wall by being impaled and he coughs up blood. You know who doesn’t cough up blood in their very weird and unrealistic death scene? Dean in the finale.)

Remember: Lee is a dark mirror for Dean. "I am you." 

By fighting and (tragically) killing Lee, Dean "kills" the darker side of himself. The side that's struggling to keep going right now... AND the side that fears eventually wanting a break means you must be selfish and stop caring.

He can keep going. He can find strength to fight God–and in the end, take a break and CHOOSE peace. It won't make him dark. He's the most caring man on Earth, even when it's hard. That’s reinforced later. 

Isn't he owed a little happiness? And that's not in the having. It's in just being.

The bonus is what's going on with Cas in this episode. 

Dean's clearing his head and finding his center again while Cas is calling him. 

Come home. I need you. Remember what matters.

And again, contrast: Lee turns out not to be "real/true" in the way Dean thought he was. But Cas IS.

And after Dean goes through all of this... he's grounded again, he recognizes that even amongst questions of what God controls there are still choices to be made, he's reminded that letting his caring heart lead him is priority, he's lost another friend... 

He comes home to Cas.

It's awkward. They're still distanced. 

But this episode is a turning point for Dean. He's not angry at Cas anymore, he wants to talk, he's ready to move forward... he just doesn't know how to yet.

And if you follow the through-line... then you get Rowena saying "fix it"... and then after that is the Purgatory prayer.

I just !!! 

S15 is packed with Dean development to hone in towards the end of his arc, but "Last Call" manages to hit SO many buttons. 

• He's always been bi, & is ready to be Out

• He can want a break–& maybe run a bar like the Roadhouse

• Caring is at the core of who he is

It's about the CHOICE. It's about wanting to live your truths, and that "caring" can mean many things–from defeating God and saving the world, to making the hard choices when it counts, to maybe running a bar where people are safe.

14x10 and its matching Texan Star also say hello:

DEAN: How come you always have a boyfriend?

PAMELA: How come you only want what you can't have?

DEAN: Whoa.

PAMELA: Besides, you don't want me. You just like to flirt. I'm a psychic, so I kinda know.

DEAN: All right.

PAMELA: So, still not ready to sell the bar, huh? It's a lot of money.

DEAN: Sell? This bar? This is my dream.

PAMELA; Yeah.

And I recognize that rereading this info is sad(der) now because of what we got in the end, so uh... sorry. 

But that's half the point: it's repeatedly blatantly clear what we were meant to get, down to deliberate echoes in word choice–caring, happiness, deserve, even Roadhouse.

Dean was meant to choose to take a break, maybe run a bar–whether on Earth or in Heaven. At minimum, if Dean was meant to end up in Heaven, he was meant to choose it with eyes wide open. And the next time the phone rang with Cas' name (15x19), he RAN for him. He was VERY ready.

And the whole season tells you that. This episode is just my favorite.

So... thanks for letting me ramble on about it!!! 

DEAN WINCHESTER: BI ICON, ONCE-LOVER OF LEE WEBB, THE MOST CARING MAN ON EARTH WHO DESERVED TO CHOOSE PEACE AFTER GAINING HIS FREEDOM, & SOULMATE TO AN ANGEL

And a very big thank you to the talented kings Jensen Ackles & Christian Kane, and their longstanding friendship. They gave me many rights with their acting choices. 

Here's an iconic bonus for the road.

[anevermadebed]

hunger, sex, & subtext in supernatural

if u saw me accidentally post a draft of this, no u didnt <3. another retrospective framework for tv’s longest running gender studies course sci-fi series. ive been thinking about hunger in spn since this text post by @qaslight gave me permanent psychic damage. 

as literary scholar terry eagleton has observed food “is never just food...it is endlessly interpretable.” from dracula to twilight, hunger in the horror genre has functioned as a metaphor for sexual desire, and eric kripke’s male power fantasy be damned, supernatural is no exception. through the lens of hunger and food, supernatural subtextually explores dean’s relationship with ~desire~. 

we know a lot about the food dean & sam eat. this is notable- like what do they eat on buffy? chuck? lucifer?  food and hunger matter in supernatural. food serves as one our earliest insights into the nature of our leads. dean is a glutton for food (and therefore for liquor, for women, and for punishment).

Hunger & food fundamentally shift after the introduction of cas. we see this most explicitly explored in comrade budland’s “my bloody valentine.” dean does not partake in “unattached drifter christmas,”  because he believes nothing could make him full (the one thing i want i know i cant have.gif).

as time goes on, the text explicitly reframes food. food is no longer a coping mechanism. food is nesting. food is family. food is shared. food is more than thing you steal to make until next week. it’s growth.  at the same time, dean’s sexual conquests wane, or to borrow from reddit,  “all the pussy” gives way to more meaningful platonic friendships with women. 

by textually exploring dean’s relationship with food, but never explicitly diving into dean’s penchant for picking up diner waitresses, we are left with an unresolved hunger- or put simply, “there’s people, there’s feelings, [he] wants to experience, maybe for the first time.”

also like if you reframe hunger as a metaphor for dean’s sexuality it makes “bad boys” truly an insane part of a re-watch. also. like benny being a vampire is once again a wild choice. 

[dotthings]

Since yes I do remember I have a tumblr and should probably use it to express myself because I’m wordy. After witnessing stan twitter 1,345, on a platform where nuance isn’t exactly common, I have some thoughts.

First: No EP or writer from spn has ever denied Destiel exists or ever told shippers to stop seeing or stop talking about it or mocked us for seeing it in their work. The writing team (which includes several queer writers) continues to work in textual level material as well as subtext and queer coding.

Second: A majority of Destiel fandom doesn’t harass and hate on the cast/crew/writers and we can see how Destiel’s now becoming increasingly textual in intent. We’re pragmatic about the chances of openly declared confirmation. That doesn’t make it less “real.” It’s getting more and more exhausting witnessing a subset angrily shouting down their own ship and attacking the show as a whole. That isn’t how I feel about spn and Destiel and I know I’m not alone on this. I’m not invalidating their rage. I’m tired of all of Destiel fandom being blamed for the behavior of a few and I don’t think the ones who behave like that are how most Destiel shippers act or how they see the situation (which is complicated) or how most shippers feel. Some are more wary than others, without being vitriolic or close-minded about Destiel and canon. Destiel fandom is not a groupthink.

Destiel is an important part of the show. It’s actually the relationship that is my personal heart center, and I’ve been yelled at plenty just for feeling that way about it, but it’s moot, canon made me feel that, canon gave me the ample content for Dean and Cas and their relationship, canon had opportunities to remove it, to end it, and never did. Instead canon built it up and added layers and made them even closer. Their relationship has been part of the A-plot. Even if it’s not the center of the show, it’s still crucial. (When are people going to get this simple concept? Something doesn’t have to be THE center to still be greatly important). For context, I’m a fan of Team Free Will too, and the bro bond, not just Destiel, and have been watching SPN since the pilot aired.

At some point under Dabb’s tenure on SPN, the way canon handled Destiel changed, from subtext, to moments where it broke into full text in ways I could no longer unsee how seriously the writing team takes this ship. I went from calmly resigned it was never going to actually be a thing, to the hair on the back of my arms standing on end because stuff was happening, and continued to happen, and it was no longer confined entirely to subtext, even if it wasn’t consummated or loudly confirmed.

Because there’s still people who straw man this kind of discussion, let me state very clearly: you are not wrong to want more open, loud representation.

Also: there is nothing wrong with wanting Dean and Cas to kiss. Or hoping for a sex scene. I’d be delighted if SPN goes that far. But if you’re out there insisting a kiss or some other explicitly sexual gesture is the absolutely, hard line the only way it will ever “count” you are hurting other fans, you are erasing the actual queer content. If you would burn the internet down in rage because Dean and Cas gets confirmation via a hand-hold or verbal confirmation or even a 3rd party statement penny drop when they aren’t even in the room, and claim that it doesn’t “count” and it’s “not enough” while you go on the attack, that’s not supportive of the ship or the work the writers have done to give it to fans as much as they can.

There has to be room for ships that fall between “loudly openly confirmed with sex scenes” and “nothing in canon backs this ship and it’s only fanon.”

Destiel in canon has had to date more canon build-up, more material, more arcing, than some canon ships in various fandoms. Yet people still deny its validity. Why is that? Why is that?

I’m not going around claiming a ship like that is incredible representation. There’s better representation available. Maybe go support that instead of obsessively attacking SPN, the crew, the cast, and turning against your own OTP.

There has to be room for multiple choice options rather than just “malicious queerbaiters!!” to allow for ships like Destiel where it’s obvious from the canon the creatives are taking it seriously in terms of story but are being held back from taking it where they would like to go with it. We won’t know until spn is over whether Destiel is getting its loudly open confirmation and consummation or not. I’m not making you promises, I’m not claiming to have inside info, I’m not claiming I know how this will go. I’m describing to you what I can see, with my eyes, so far, in both canon, which is borne out by extra-textual comments and incidents, but the extra-textual back-up is just support for what I can see in the canon.

I’d also like to know since when is fandom wank more important than the actual canon content. When did the drama and conflicts within the parasocial relationship between the people who make the show and fans become the thing calling all the shots here while people ignore the canon.

Let’s play a game. Close your eyes. Breath deeply. Imagine SPN canon, everything playing out exactly as it has in canon up to this point, but in fandom there was never a loud group of obsessed antis pounding in your ears calling you delusional or fake fans or ruining spn for seeing it. There were never antis repeating the weirdly contradictory “this show is about FAMILY so Destiel can’t be a thing.” There were never antis twisting the canon into uncrecognizable knots so they could deny and deny and deny how much Dean and Cas care for each other even as friends, along with their phobic anti-shipping concern trolling. There were never antis supposedly on your ship team (Destiel shippers who are hurt and disappointed at the lack of loud, open confirmation, which is valid, but some turned toxic over it) telling you there’s nothing there and you’re only being baited and it’s not real and you’re delusional for seeing it and a traitor to the ship if you see anything good for Destiel in the canon. Imagine you never heard of twitter.

Imagine that.

Would you doubt what’s before your eyes? Would you deny it was valid?

[nancylou444]

I tried to be nice

Replies to this post:

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Became this:

THEM:  hi! thanks for the answers I really appreciate the discussion. normally if someone ships something I don’t like or something like that, I’ll just leave them alone but.. just to be clear I completely respect all of your opinions, even agree with some of them, even if we might disagree on the incest and Castiel haha. So I don’t mean any disrespect with this at all, please let me know if I’m out of line though!  

 But... I saw some things you said, and they come across to me in a way that I don’t think you intended? I feel really awkward sending this haha, you’re very nice and I don’t think you said anything on purpose, but I just.. wanted to let you know that some of the things regarding your opinion on certain characters come across not very well? I don’t think it’s intentional or anything, and I don’t mean to call you out at all which is why I didn’t want to point it out in the replies y’know?  

 Don’t get me wrong though, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with not liking castiel or destiel. I’ve been watching the show for a while with my dad, and he isn’t a huge fan either, I don’t think that’s a problem :) 

I’d continue without waiting for a response but I don’t want to say something you’ve already been told, or continue without knowing if I’ve said something out of line already 😅

ME:  I'm kind of distracted dealing with my Mom's rehab center. But you can keep going.

THEM: Alright! I’ve tried rephrasing this a million times but I don’t know how to make it seem not antagonistic. I promise I don’t mean that you’re doing it intentionally, it’s just, uh a lot of your criticism of spn feels like it could be read as homophobic? Again I don’t think YOU are I just wanted you to know it kind of reads that way!

That sounded so confrontational. I really don’t mean it that way 😭

ME: HOMOPHOBIC? Really? A lot of the 'proof' your fellow shippers use border on stereotypes but you think I'M homophobic? Considering my top two ships are Wincest and Malec. Yeah, sounds confrontational.

THEM:  I’m sorry, I didn’t mean it like that. I guess there’s no other way to say it, but I understand why you feel accused. What do you mean by proof..?

Also I don’t really think having gay ships means you can’t be homophobic. *I* used to be homophobic years ago, and I’m a gay person!

ME:  How old are you? https://nancylou444.tumblr.com/post/154098904136/a-guide-to-dean-winchesters-imaginary-bisexuality

THEM:  yeah this is starting to get frustrating. I’m gonna be real with you, why does it matter if people think dean is bisexual? like, bottom line, that is my question for you

and your answer will determine if your veracity is homophobic. why does it matter that some people think dean is bisexual. not the fans or actors or writers or anything. why does it matter that some viewers will watch, and they will think dean is bisexual?

ME:  My problem isn't that some people think he is bi IN FANON, my problem is that they want CONFIRMATION OF A FANON SHIP. And that some people DENY how the show ended. These same people think that fake weddings are more canon than the FINAL EPISODE.

THEM:  I get what you mean, but how is it a fanon ship when it’s confirmed romantic from one side, and interpretable as mutually reciprocated in Latin America? (I’m going to disregard the bit about the wedding, because I’m a firm believer in Neil Gaiman variety death of the author. Also that’s just people having fun with fanon, who cares?)

ME:  Confirmed romantic?By whom MISHA, who wanted to sell necklaces? Have you never said 'i love you' to a FRIEND or FAMILY member? The dub is not canon, so don't even try using that as proof. Death of the author is just another way of saying MY VIEW OF THE SHOW IS SUPERIOR TO HOW THE CREATOR WANTS TO SEE IT. Jensen has said many times that the ship isn't canon and that Dean is straight. But it's better to believe what Misha says because he agrees with you. You think somebody is bi because of how they sit or the color clothes they wear? That would make YOU homophobe.

THEM:  LOL You know what? I change my answer. I looked through your blog and you ACTIVELY and viscously hate Cas, Charlie, Claire, Kaia and the implication that Jack may not be straight. You’ve said Cas coming out as gay and in love with dean makes the rest of his actions predatory, compared him to a teenage girl, called him creepy, and openly rejoiced in your idea that dean looked ‘disgusted with him’. You said that Claire is awful, that Kaia is a wooden plank, that they ‘shoved them together’ for ‘woke points’ and said that Jody saying Claire was IN LOVE WITH Kaia ‘doesnt count’ and called it ‘lip service’. And it doesn’t end there! After all this, you said that you preferred the old better s4 Claire. Is it because she was ostensibly straight? Are you uncomfortable with queer women? And then you have the audacity to use these characters (Claire and Kaia and Charlie) as reasons to epicly own the Hellers and claim they already have represention. You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling. You are openly hostile to the idea of non-binary jack and were pissed that Alcal endorsed that. You devalue Jack’s value and relationship to Cas who is, textually, his father figure. I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Feel free to explain how you aren’t homophobic. I’m so sorry if I got the wrong impression.

ME: Wow I see your true colors have come out HELLER.

THEM:  Idc if you think I’m mean. Go ahead and make a post about me lol, have fun with it. Give me a moment to respond to your paragraph it’s... a lot to dissect.

I’ll touch on your comments about the dub and the Spanish language in a moment. First though

I ’m gonna be real with you, I don’t think you know what death of the author is. Neil Gaiman’s variety of the dead author principal is that once canon ends, the story belongs to those that consume and engage with it. That’s... also literally the theme of supernaturals final season. Anyway I really recommend you read up on death of the author and Neil Gaiman’s takes on fanon. It’s a fun way to consume your media, and in the end that’s what I’m here for.

I don’t care what Misha says, and I don’t care what Jensen says! I think they are both queer because I have eyes and watched the show. I think it’s a lovely narrative that is supported by canon, and it’s fine if you disagree with that

On your last sentence there... lol. It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people. But what do I know!

And finally... ‘the Spanish dub isnt canon’

I am literally cuban. My first language is SPANISH. my entire household speaks Spanish, and my family past 1st cousins don’t speak any English. My Boricua cousins have watched supernatural in full for years, and they watch it in Spanish. Do you think America is the center of the universe? Do you think our media is somehow less than yours, that our interpretations of English language media isn’t valid? What, do you think we are idiots who don’t know how to analyze literature and media? Do you think the people who work at Telemundo, people employed as dubbers and translators, you think they do a worse job than the American crew?

Why, because they aren’t American or don’t speak English? ‘Te amo’ said to a non family member is, in 99% of any instance, ROMANTIC. it’s something you say to your spouse in serious situations like weddings!! Even MARRIED people don’t normally say te amo, everyone uses te quiero unless it is very serious or romantic in context.

All of my family who are Spanish language, they heard dean say ‘y a yo ti, cas’ and think that they were in romantic love. Sorry dude! The United States might be the center of your universe, but Latin America is HUGE. Spanish is one of the most spoken languages in the WORLD. In fact, more people speak Spanish than English. Sorry that you seem to hate gay characters SO MUCH you have to say an entire language somehow isn’t valid to consume media in!

ME: 

Obviously this heller is batshit crazy. 

Some of those things she thinks I said just show she has no idea how to follow a tumblr thread. 

You are a completely disingenuous bitch and I don’t care to be nice to you anymore! I don’t feel AT ALL charitable toward you anymore, and I don’t care if you have gay ships. Gay people aren’t here for you to fetishize! You CONSTANTLY mock and ridicule jokes made by queer people regarding deans bisexuality or Cas being gay or any number of things. You constantly reaffirm that Dean is straight and call people who think otherwise delusional and disgusting, while you think dean is in romantic sexual love with his male sibling.

Wow. 

I have NO reason not to think that you are homophobic. I don’t care anymore! You’re a huge bitch and, judging by your prior responses and posts, a genuine dialogue regarding queerness in spn is impossible. You regard any instance of canonically queer moments ‘lip service’ and so regard it. You actively hate every canonically gay character and degrade them using traditionally homophobic tropes and stereotypes.

Where have I hated canon gay characters and degraded them using tropes and stereotypes? The bitch has me confused with HER FELLOW SHIPPERS. 

Gotta love how she is defending the Spanish dub. Hit a nerve did I? 

It’s a common joke in queer circles that gays can’t sit properly, specifically bisexuals. Same thing with the clothing, it’s a SUPER common joke for example that lesbians wear flannel. Maybe you need to go outside and talk to some normal, non-incest shipping queer people.

Now who is using stereotypes? 

[cooloddball]

Hi I went through few cons and I actually got my heart broken a little bit. Every one of them had Jensen denying the idea of Destiel or Dean being anything but the American male fantasy.

Vancon 2012 J2 panel he avoids the fan who is screaming Destiel. I understand that because he was going through something Misha shaped during 2012. Destiel was the last thing he wanted in his life then.

The controversial NJCon 2013 where he pretty much rudely avoids the Bi Dean question. I mean come on there were so many ways to back down there but just giving into that crowd like that and shooting down that girl who asked the question? I know she actually explained what happened there but he is saying things to convey he is unhappy where that question is heading. JP who is considered the immature even is considering answering the question the girl is continuously apologising it is a horror show there while Jensen is just being plain rude.

Jib 2014 solo panel where he is asked if Dean will ever get his pie. And he denies Cas ever being there at the end of the line. And ironically at the end, he was only there with all kinds of pie but no Cas. Amazing how life worked out for him.

Jib 2015 solo panel where he again denies both CasDean and Destiel from Fan Fiction episode. JPad was not there and Jensen was in a bad mood so maybe it had something to do with that.

Chicon 2016 he again invalidates Cas when a question is asked about him Cas and Mary.

TorCon 2016 where both Js are denying Cas's importance saying there's no necessity for him.

JaxCon 2017 he pretty much shoots down Destiel by saying Destiel doesn't exist.

In JaxCon 2018 he wrote NO infront of Bi Dean research paper a fan showed him.

Jibcon 2019 he asks audience Where does Destiel exist. but I think he was much like teasing the audience there tbh. No major harm but it still hurts.

I just.. I truly believe he knows what he and Misha were doing in the Destiel implied scenes. And now the cat is pretty much out of the bag. But still Jensen is pretty much staying on his ground and it is nice he is now more open for interpretation but the strength this fandom should have to forgive him for all he did...

I believe in Karma. I think Karma got to Jensen eventually for all hurt he did by those words to the fandom. I don't hate Jensen in fact I really adore the guy. But it doesn't mean I am not upset by his words. How I think Karma worked here is that he never embraced what he was portraying as a character and Karma finally said "Okay Dude enough foreplay.. You want pie okay here's pie and your car now die and be in heaven and your character arc is in garbage but your brother gets to live. There goes your male fantasy.."

I understand if he had internalized sexuality issues of himself that he didn't feel like exposing by talking about Dean and Destiel but still there are much better ways to shoot down fan opinions without being so rude.

In 2014 he pretty much says that at the end of the series Dean might get all kinds of pie with no Castiel and...Geez Is it not what exactly happened? No Cas and Pie on his face. Accidental foreshadowing spoilers..

I think he got Karma for hurting so many fan hearts and denying something he evidently portrayed in his character. At the end he didn't get a happy ending he got robbed by his own show. While the shippers actually got something out of it Thanks to Misha.

I don't need Jensen to embrace Destiel in an open hug because not in any universe that's gonna happen. I actually hoped he would eventually be open to it. He actually might be, considering his reaction to episode 18. But there's no proof actually footage of him saying anything positive about Destiel. It just... is such a bummer.

I know Jensen is hurt for his own reasons by his own show which actually hurt him in ways no fan ever did. I hope he understands how fans feel now being betrayed by a show they love.

May be he had the Karma coming..

Wow. I-

Hmm. This was super long and I read each and every word of it. However, I feel like maybe you are a Jensen anti. Maybe you are not but that's the vibe I got as I read all this.

First of all I am a Dean girl since the pilot. I love Dean. I watched the show because of Dean. Even before I knew about Destiel, I loved Dean. When Cas showed up, I still loved Dean and to me, Cas was a part of Dean somehow, it just always felt that way.

Secondly. I love Jensen and Misha. I know some people don't like Jensen because of Destiel but I like him and I know he has said something's about the topic but truth is, I get why he did that.

Thirdly, I don't think Karma has anything to do with Dean's death. What they did to Dean was fucked up. Jensen doesn't write the show or control the direction that the show went. That is up to the network, the producers and the writers. Period. So, No. Karma had nothing to do with Dean's end. Jensen protested a lot about the ending. We all know why they did it. It's been talked about x10000000000.

Lastly, on the issue of Jensen and Destiel.

Jensen has on numerous occassions that he doesn't think Cas feels things the way human beings feel things. I believe Dean was on love with Cas but he wasn't sure whether Cas felt the same way because he's an angel.

Bi Dean. Not to discredit anyone but the notion that Jensen would deny that Dean was bi because of his own sexuality crisis irl feels like an insult to Jensen as an actor. I saw once an anti Cas/Misha person say that the way Dean hugged Cas in 12x09 was because Jensen hates Misha. Make it make sense. That is an insult to Jensen. There are directors and writers involved. Jensen doesn't get to decide how he wants to hug Cas or Sam. Yes, they have a right of input sometimes but it is very rarely. And thinking personal feelings would affect his acting or portrayal of Dean is truly a moot point. There are so many actors with feuds irl but when they are performing you would never know. Please let's not insult Jensen like that. He deserves an Emmy for playing Dean so well all these years.

Jensen denied Destiel and Bi Dean because it was never explicitly said he actually was bi or was in love with Cas. However, it is there in subtext. I could list all those instances but I'm guessing you already know all those instances from your research on various cons as indicated in the ask. I believe Jensen knew how he played Dean as bi and as in love with Cas. However, if he said "Yeah, Dean is bi and is in love with cas" then the show doesn't explicitly confirm it, then what. You would all start call him a liar and a panderer like many have called Misha. So he just said what was there. Do you remember Metatron's monologue in s9? What makes a story great, is it the text or the subtext? To me, it's both. To others it's the text while for others it's the subtext.

The network and producers. These are I believe the people who decide what the fans want and how to make money from the show. So if they believe textually confirming Destiel canon or bi Dean would've lined their pockets they would've done it. If watched the show, s12 was pretty gay. It's the gayest of all seasons followed by s15.

Anyway, I have a feeling that you might be an anti destiel or anti Jensen person trying to pose as destiel shipper. I honestly don't know. All I can tell you is that I am a Jensen Ackles apologist and I believe he did as much as the network would let him in terms of letting us see that Dean was in love with Cas.

12x23, 13x01-13x06,15x03,15x09,15x18. There's so much but I am neither a destiel meta writer or a film/tv critic so there's not much I can say. But please Jensen is a good man and I think people asking him over and over again about Destiel when he knew he couldn't give them the answers they wanted got to him and he had to shut it down. Maybe sometimes he was rude but he's only human.

[norahastuff]

ok but feeling that destiel is fully textually canon and reciprocated. know we never got dean’s response and i don’t know if you were ever into doctor who. but it draws parallels to other canon ships in that universe. twelve and clara were never made textual romantically but everything about their relationship showed that. ntm writers like moffat dubbing it as a traditional love story and other cast members saying something similar. i’m always gonna be pissed about 20 but we’ve been given so much more than some other het canon ships which blows my mind just thinking about it

I’ve only seen the Eccleston and Tennant seasons of Dr Who (and a few eps of Jodie Whittaker) but I’ll take your word for it, and yes I completely agree. I’ve always seen them as following the Ugly Betty model when it comes to how they addressed Dean and Cas’ relationship (see here and here) but it turns out the show went further than I was ever expecting them to. 

Look despite everything, this is unprecedented. Can you name me another series that 

a) Was ostensibly an action show about two bros road tripping around America hunting monsters.

b) Had a hypermasculine, seen by much of the general viewing audience as a so called “ladies’ man” (even though when talking about Scoobynatural Jensen described Dean as “ever trying to be the ladies’ man that he’s not”) protagonist.

c)  Introduced another badass tough character who was an Angel of the Lord no less and who eventually became a main character.

d) Had the two of these guys grow closer and closer and added romantic trope after trope to their relationship and not in a jokey “Cas get out of my ass!” kind of way but in a “these two characters feel so deeply for each other that we have to craft their narratives around that” way. I’ll use the mixtape as an example. While that was an objectively bonkers choice to make - you don’t make someone give someone a mixtape on the screen if you’re trying to convey a platonic relationship - it also didn’t exist in a vacuum.  It was in an episode (and season) where the way Dean and Cas felt about each other, how differently Dean felt for him than Sam did, and how Dean understood and saw Cas in a way no one else did, was consistently highlighted. The mixtape wasn’t just a random addition, it was a part of the larger narrative. Also, there was no other point to it, there’s no haha “ I was never in your -” punchline. It was just about their feelings.

e) Had the only long term romantically coded relationship on this show be between these two male main characters. Sure you can say it wasn’t explicit, but that element has always been there and the show has addressed it multiple times.

e) Crafted their storyline in the final season around their relationship issues. That wasn’t just a subplot. It wasn’t just a “5 mins at the end of an episode oh yeah sure let’s mention it” kind of thing. Sam had his “I don’t know what’s real” “we are” moment with Eileen. Dean? He had his with Cas. 

f) Had one of those two main characters explicitly and unambiguously confess to being in love with the other. 

Look I’m sorry but that is unprecedented. This is a genre show that started in 2005 when the very idea of a male protagonist who wasn’t 100% straight would be unthinkable. Let alone one whose identity didn’t revolve around that and who wasn’t a stereotype. I think there have been occasions where female characters were allowed to be “flexible” and float around on the Kinsey scale, but male characters have never been afforded that same luxury. And even then that’s been tricky. If I recall correctly, Whedon wanted to make Willow bi but the network wasn’t on board with that. 

Even today. People talk about representation and how other shows are doing it better and how much Spn sucks at it, and look I don’t disagree. But of those other shows, how many have queer male characters that weren’t explicitly stated to be queer from the beginning? I’m having a tough time thinking of any. Lucifer? His penchant for “devil’s threesomes” was there from the first couple of episodes. John Constantine? He’s a canonically bi character in the comics and his sexuality was erased from his own show for...reasons. We all know what they were. Also as soon as he made his first appearance on Legends of Tomorrow, he hit on a guy and hooked up with a girl so his being bi was made very clear from the start of his story on that show. 

If you look at Dean and Cas, we’ve been watching these characters for 15 and 12 seasons respectively. After all that time, for their final love interests to be each other...well that’s not nothing.

Look we can still be unhappy about the ending but also acknowledge the significance of what people like Misha, Bobo, Meredith, and many others (Yockey, Edlund, and Thompson get honorary mentions) managed to create here. Like you said the only thing that blocks people from seeing Dean and Cas as being in love with each other is the fact that they’re guys. The show and the narrative told us that they were and it’s perfectly valid if you’re frustrated that it wasn’t explicit enough (though honestly, I don’t know how Cas could have possibly been more explicit) but the story was there. 

Dean and Cas were in love.

[amwritingmeta]

hey! i was just wondering if you think spn will actually make destiel canon by the finale? it seems like in interviews they're trying to let us down gently w/a cas death (which possibly makes it seem like cas's ending might be related to his empty deal?) + all the parallels between saileen and deancas, and it looks like dabb and co (while not rly bringing arcs into conclusion and generally making a mess of spn) are fighting to make it canon, i was wondering what ur take on it was, esp after ep09

Oh, my dear, my heart is swelling with love for those two right now. I just watched the show through from 12x19-15x13 and I swear, that moment they share in 15x12, clinking those glasses and sharing all those smiles was like balm. It’s not even five minutes of screen time, and still it was like, okay, yes, good, thank you for the room to breathe. :D

It seems to be that Cas hearing Dean’s prayer has ushered in some much earned peace between them. They’re shown to be on the same page and taking each other’s side unquestionably. Dean trusting Cas’ judgment regarding Jack without pause. And that’s a good word for it: there’s trust between them, mutual respect, understanding. It’s so lovely, isn’t it?

So, there’s this line that’s sort of stuck with me. Actually, there are two things that have stuck with me (apart from all the gorgeous symbology baked into every episode) and it’s that the word “complete” has been mentioned twice.

Once in reference to Mary in Heaven, and once by Amara in reference to God.

Then we have a line that’s recurred twice: I had to die to get what I want.

The fact that its spoken verbatim twice made my antennas perk up a bit. It may mean nothing, as some things in this narrative sometimes do mean nothing, but it’s still interesting to take these things into account: that we’re searching for completion and that sometimes, in order to get what you want, you have to die.

So. Will Cas die?

I don’t think so. I don’t think so for many reasons that I’ve laid out here (I just posted this) (it was like you read my mind that this was coming today), but foremost because I cannot see how him dying does anything for his character arc, or for his joint journey with Dean.

You know, dark!Kaia (Kaia’s Shadow) going back to the Bad Place (Kaia’s unconscious) and accepting the ending waiting there, releasing our!Kaia back to the world where she belongs, makes me think, more than ever, that the integration of the main character’s Shadows are a necessity. 

The Empty, way I see it, is representative of Cas’ Shadow, his unconscious, all the repressed and suppressed emotions of guilt, shame and doubt that has kept his self-worth down until Jack came on the scene. 

And this is just my reading of this situation, but I’m not sure I can see Cas defeating the Empty in the Empty, if you know what I mean? The last time Cas intruded, the Empty made him suffer greatly. I don’t think Cas holds any sway there, nor should he. 

To me, the weapon our conscious has against our unconscious ruling our decisions, is our ability to grow aware of our own impulses, our own thought patterns, and making choices to break away from them.

I think Cas can only beat the Empty through making a choice and, well, for a long time I’ve felt that choice should be to become human, because by making a final choice of who he is and who he wants to be, he brings himself into awareness, integrating his Shadow in the process, and narratively nullifying the Empty’s hold on him, since humans don’t go to the Empty when they die: they go to Heaven. 

But that’s wishing and hoping and speculation, of course.

Here’s where the Destiel question comes in though.

Do I believe they’ll make it canon?

Personally, I can’t think of anything more a part of our story than the love story between those two, but I know what you mean. You mean a representative, tangible, clear, statement type of making it canon. Textualising it, so that there’s no room for doubt whatsoever. No more arguments, no more queer baiting complaints, just Destiel in plain sight. Undeniable. 

I do and I don’t.

Watching these last few seasons through again made me realise what a different feel to them this last season has, because the emotional stakes for Dean and Cas have everything to do with what they mean to each other. Yeah?

Dean taking his anger out on Cas and it pushing Cas into a turning point where he chose to leave, to move on, which was a moment of clear independence a statement of his sense of self-worth, and it in turn pushing Dean into a turning point where he faced a side to himself that he’s needed to name since forever, admitting to not having any control of himself, which is something he has to acknowledge if he’s to move into trusting himself fully, all of this has been gosh darn breathtaking to get to witness.

And having them land back in this ease, where they work together seamlessly as a team, being kept together more than not, the framing of them, all of this makes me feel like they could give us canon Destiel. I’m not going to say they absolutely won’t. 

I believe the writers want it. I believe the actors want it. But, again, that’s just what I take from the narrative itself, because the subtext is stronger than ever this final season. 

Especially with Sam and Eileen being reunited.

Because it’s been that clear parallel you mentioned, but it’s been that clear parallel to those of us who see it. The echoes of the Saileen romance that trace through the Destiel progression won’t be as resounding to those that don’t.

And because of that, at this point, I also feel quite reserved with my belief that Destiel could become canon. Because there’s so much, but there’s also nothing. There’s so much for us to enjoy, there’s so much evidence they keep throwing at us that the writers support this reading of their story, but still, there’s nothing, really, to let on that they’re building towards these two men, at some point, declaring their love for each other.

There has been zero textual foreshadowing of that.

There have been throw away moments, like the cop flirting with Dean, for example, but he frowned at that, and then got sincerely flirted with by a woman, so that deescalated that very quickly. 

There was Dean at first rejecting Garth’s compliment of “You smell SO good”, becoming uncomfortable, to then, by the end of the ep, tell Garth he didn’t smell half-bad either.

And there was that amazing moment with Cas calling out Sam being “sexually intimate” with Ruby and Dean repeating the words as if he can’t believe Cas even knows how to pronounce them.

So, there’s... you know, stuff?

But it’s not foreshadowing if it can be overlooked by the wider audience.

That said.

This show isn’t about this love story of ours. The fact that it’s so downplayed could mean that what we’ll get is something textual, but extremely subtle. I mean, for me, lingering eye-contact and a shared smile in a context that makes us understand they’re choosing each other would be enough.

If, by canon, you mean do I think we’ll get them kissing, then the answer is I want to believe that we might get that, because they could build towards that on the foundation of ease and trust that they’ve put down over the last few episodes and they could build it effectively, but I just don’t know if the studio (who own the characters) is onboard. 

My hope is that they are, because the topic of healthy representation is so hot right now, and the question of the longevity of Supernatural to the younger generations (you know, you young ones who are proving exceedingly more open-minded and looking for something beyond the superficial brothers-hunting-monsters aspect of the show) would bank on the show opening itself up to the possibilities of solid representation already seeded throughout its run.

But Dean has flirted with more women than men this season. You know? I mean, he hasn’t flirted with any men. So. 

Look, I’m not going to say I don’t think we’ll get it, because I don’t know. 

I watched S15 yesterday and finished it today and suddenly I feel this wave of hope that it actually might happen, because they’ve already changed how Dean and Cas interact, they’ve given them so many scenes with just the two of them, and we have Sam clearly meant to end up with Eileen, and doesn’t Dean and Cas deserve that same happiness? That same sense of completion? That internal peace of loving unconditionally and being loved in return?

Sam and Eileen could be foreshadowing. These writers are subtle and they could be gleefully rubbing their hands together at the thought of springing textual Destiel on the GA, you know? The green light from the studio might make them diabolical. *sadism* And I love that thought.

Because that’s been the point of the love story for me, this slow, slow build to the moment when Dean and Cas have reached a point in their progression when what they’ll have together is a healthy, balanced, loving relationship because they’ve both let go of the past and are looking to the future.

But I won’t expect textual Destiel. If we do get it, I’m going to treasure it as a big cherry on top of an already perfectly inviting and exquisite pie.

What I do believe, more than ever, that we’re getting, though, is closure. Even if it’s only at the subtextual level, I believe that those of us who read the subtext will have Destiel verified beyond a shadow of a doubt. And yes, I will be quite surprised and disappointed if we don’t get that. Because of how these first 13 episodes have been shaped and how strong the subtext is in them.

I believe we’ll end on a hopeful note.

And wouldn’t that just be gratifyingly phenomenal?

(it really would) (honestly I just need to know that they are happy and alive and together and well and finding peace and carrying on) (you know?) (thank you and amen) :)

xx

[verobatto]

Where are you??

Destiel Meta. Still swimming in subtext. Bi!Dean meta.

15x07 Last Call

Hello my friends!!! Well maybe like clowns we were expecting some textualism about Dean's bisexuality, but we didn't get that, we are still swimming in subtext, juicy and wonderful subtext, but it won't lead us to Destiel canon. So, I hope we will get some more aggresive approaching to it from the writers in the following episodes.

Now, saying this, let's start with the meta.

B's Bar, Angela and another Destiel mirror

We had two girls, one very drunk, helped by Angela, this nice girl, and her best friend, coming out from a bar named B's bar... And if you pay attention to this scene, the blonde friend almost kissed in the lips to Angela. And Angela says NO MORE GUYS. Like an advice, but with her drunken friend trying to kiss her, and coming out the B's bar, it looked like Angela saying DON'T CHOOSE MORE GUYS, I'M HERE.

Let's rewind this, when Dean came to the kitchen, Sam offered him bacon... And he rejected it. He rejected bacon, people!!! Something that he loves, but he rejects now.

Same thing with the woman at the bar that was permanently flirting with him, trying to get from him some signal... And Dean was rejecting it, just like the bacon. Why? We know why, he already is taken. He had changed. He doesn't want to hook up with waitress, he wants Castiel. So now, rejecting bacon or women, is like natural for him. No more women!

Now, back to the Destiel mirror, we had a kidnapping, and Angela's vanished.

When Dean found the girl at the bar, he interrogates her, but Lee, his friend, called him, and the words he says, I think we were in front of another Cas/the Empty foreshadow here... "She went without saying goodbye?" "Well, maybe she deserved it."

Wow, rude, but... What if... Cas is taken by the Empty, and there's no time to say goodbye... ? Someone would say those rides words... Maybe Dean deserved it? No please...

A lot of Bi!Dean subtext

At the beginning not the episode, we had Dean locked in his room, with a lot of empty beer bottles, drinking, depressed, looking for a case. He needs to clear his head... What is that supposed to mean?

He had just discovered he doesn't know what's Chuck and what isn't, okay? So he needs to think about it. One of the things he did because of thinking Chuck was manipulating everything, was pushing Castiel away. So now, he has a lot of doubts about if that was good or not, he needs to know if pushing away Castiel was a good decision...

When he first arrived to the town, he found a sheriff, a very particular sheriff that hint on him!!!!! And Dean is like in awe, and flustered! Because the sheriff keeps smiling and flirting and finally he called Dean GOOD-LOOKING!! Okay...

In Swayze's bar, he found the waitress that kept flirting with him the whole episode, even if Dean felt honored, as we could see in his face, he wasn't interested, and sometimes he seemed uncomfortable with the waitress flirting to him.

But we just had... One man (sheriff) and one woman (waitress) openly flirting with Dean. With bi!flag Lighting all over the place aaaaand Lee eye fucking/loving at him the whole episode, Dean was doing the same... A lot of love in those eyes, my dears... Making us feel there was something more there... Just in subtext. But he'll they looked at each other with such love I can't even describe it!

Lee was the bar's owner (just like Dean's dream in 14x10) with this girl (like Pamela) so we could say... They were Dean's female and male portions in his head, just like in Rocky's bar. Agus, i will need the gif set with the parallel here...

Lee was dressed in blue (Castiel's color) by the way...

They talked about a sexual party, Dean mentioned twins... But Lee recalled they were three... No genre was mentioned, so yes. In the same table were sitting two guy and one woman. Let your imagination fly... Bi!Dean subtext again.

Lee was inviting him the whole time to retirement and to enjoy life, because... Dean had saved a lot of people and it was time to stop because he deserves to be saved too...

You think you don't deserve to be saved?

At night the bar was shinning in Bi colored flag light, but when it was the morning, the colors of the walls and curtains were green and blue!!!!!! Dean and Cas!

Okay, I'll stop here because i will talk about Visual narrative in my next meta.

Where are you?

Castiel came back to the bunker because he had a plan, but when things doesn't work well, he calls Dean... A lot of times. But Dean didn't answer... Just like a cheating husband. Cas lost his temper and he even shouts WHERE ARE YOU!? At the phone.

So many times Dean asked that to CAS... Didn't he? Will he ask this again when Castiel will be taken by the Empty without saying goodbye to him? Sorry... *Runs away*.

Now...that Samleen holding hands and Castiel interrupting, okay, I won't say a thing but... It looks like foreshadow to me too... (Sue me bc I'm still waiting for a Destiel holding hands and maybe Sam interrupting, because is a vicious circle my friends...)

Cas is still hurted

When Dean appeared at the bunker, Castiel's face is about surprise, relief, and a hint of heart eyes, Dean is acting as if nothing had happened between them, just like I expected to occur, because is his way to avoid things. But this time it won't work, because CAS recalls immediately Dean's hard words and the last call, and he recalls that THEY DIDN'T PART FRIENDS (this quote from episode 7x17 when they came back to see each other after the break up in season 6).

So, Cas changed his face, and he just threw a few words, and leaves, quickly. Dean senses this, and he just grimaced, okay... What did you expect, Dean? Things are not good. You need to use your words!

Thanks @agusvedder for this gifs!!! Hdjdjddkdhdmf

To Conclude

We had a Destiel mirror with those two girls, and maybe a foreshadow of what is about to come with the Empty and Castiel.

Dean needed to be alone to clean his head, because he needs to know what is real and what's not in their lives.

Dean's hunt was full of bi subtext, still swimming in subtext, bi flags lighting, love/eye fucking with his old friend, been hinted by a man and a woman. Dialogues full of bi subtext.

Dean rejecting bacon and woman, is a sign of how he had grown up, and how being in love with Castiel had changed him. He doesn't want a one night ride, he needs a whole life love.

Cas is still hurted, and Dean is acting as if it was nothing, he needs to face it and finally talk with honesty to fix things with Cas.

I hope you like this, I see you in my next meta! 😘💕

Tagging @metafest @gneisscastiel @emblue-sparks@mrsaquaman187 @magnificent-winged-beast @agusvedder @weirddorkylittlediana @michyribeiro @whyjm @legendary-destiel @a-bit-of-influence @thatwitchydestielfan @misha-moose-dean-burger-lover @lykanyouko @evvvissticante @savannadarkbaby @angelneedshunter @trickster-archangel @dea-stiel @mybonsai1976 @anarchiana @angelwithashotgunandtrenchcoat @trashblackrainbow @destielshipper221b @mishtho @dancingtuesdaymorning @feathered-castiel @bre95611 @zoerayne2426 @justmeand-myinsight @that-one-fandom-chick @proccastinate @studio-hatter @pepevons @liwopanyaasss @poorreputation

Buenos Aires December 6th 2019 12:10 AM

[khaleesiofthegreatdairystate]

yeah like...i do feel bad for jensen having his concerns about the finale ignored, and with the fandom being the size it is i'm sure he's had to deal with some fucked up shit from both the destiel and the bronly sides of the fandom, but the way people talk about him like he's a damsel in distress tied to some train tracks because a destiel shipper making a completely pg-rated ship edit is apparently 'sexualizing' him truly sends me.

rizzoli and isles is a show starring two women where the writers and actors insisted the leads were straight, but rizzoli and isles were still the most shipped dynamic in the series. i'm not sure if any of the non-lead actors said they shipped rizzles, but if they did i cannot imagine the fandom having a problem with it. so the argument 'if dean were a woman you'd see how creepy this was' holds exactly zero water.

I know a person who’s a bit of an anti-destieller and the way she talks about Jensen sometimes is almost...patronizing. Like Misha makes Jensen bait the fans and Jensen is just a pawn in the destiel game, as in Jensen is both and idiot and too weak to stand up to Misha if Misha does things that makes him uncomfortable. It can’t just be that he and Misha are really great friends who grew closer over the years and Jensen might not have the same hang ups about destiel that he used to so he doesn’t care as much about Misha and him being shipping fonder. No, Jensen is a delicate little flower that has been corrupted by the evil Misha. It’s ridiculous.

Of course there will always been shippers who are gross and inappropriate because there was a failure in their upbringing that didn’t teach them boundaries, but that’s not most shippers. I’ve long moved past my ship war days and adopted a “ship and let ship” attitude because some people over there in fandom who I will never interact with in anyway shipping an opposing ship or hating on shippers in general really does nothing to hurt me and me holding animosity towards them only hurts myself. There are so many more important things in life than fandom shipping bullshit. It’s just so not worth getting worked up over but some people will never come to that realization. 

There are big f/f slash ships for textually straight ladies, too as you say. Swan Queen was a pretty big deal in the Once Upon a Time fandom. I was never a fan of them as a couple because I’m not a fan of hero/villain ships and later on the writing of the show was over all terrible but I understood the appeal of Regina and Emma being a couple and only a piece of that has to do with imagining them perform sexual acts on each other. Because shipping isn’t just about sex. If that were true, there would exist no fan works that exist but of Dean and Cas besides them buttering each other’s biscuits, and that’s just not true.

[bre95611]

Castiel, Anna, and Dean in Season 4: Part One

Here we go! My very first meta. This will be a 3 part series looking into the relationships between Cas and Anna, Dean and Anna, and how the two relationships parallel each other during Supernatural season 4. Quick thanks to @agusvedder for helping me with the single gif in this post, both creating it and also walking my helpless self through saving it. Also thanks to @theirprofoundbond for all the motivation and kind words of encouragement! All quotes are from the Supernatural wiki transcripts. I would love to get some feedback on this, so feel free to send me a message and let me know what you think!

The first hint we get at a previous relationship between Anna and Castiel is almost entirely visual. In 4x10 "Heaven and Hell" Anna and Dean kiss when the angels have come for her, right before the demons show up. A lot of people view this kiss as Castiel's underlying feelings for Dean coming out in a look of jealousy of Anna for kissing Dean goodbye, essentially showing Castiel that they have since established a physical relationship. I don't necessarily disagree with this reading, but I propose a different reading as well.

I do think that Cas's budding feelings for Dean are at play here, I really do. But more than that, I think it's indicative of a previous relationship between Anna and Cas. Yes there is a jealous undertone in Castiel's look. But I think it's more jealousy of Dean getting to kiss Anna than the other way around. At this point in the narrative, we are dealing with a freshly reprogrammed Castiel. There is a marked difference in his actions regarding Dean and company. His feelings and doubts have been temporarily squashed due to what we can assume from the narrative as a whole as Naomi's doing. This is not the same angel as we saw last in 4x07, baring his proverbial soul to Dean on the park benches. This is Good Little Soldier Castiel.

Castiel's reaction to the kiss reads as jealousy and confusion. I believe it is jealousy of Dean getting to say a proper farewell to Anna. Some confusion as well because subconsciously he is also jealous of Anna getting to kiss Dean at all. I believe his blossoming feelings for Dean are still there, just buried too deep for him to realize it. However, reading this nearly famous Destiel scene only really makes sense in this context in later episodes, after seeing more evidence of a previous Castiel/Anna relationship.

The very next scene we get plays out as follows:

CASTIEL: I'm sorry.

ANNA: No. You're not. Not really. You don't know the feeling.

CASTIEL: Still, we have a history. It's just --

ANNA: Orders are orders. I know. Just make it quick.

At this point, we already know that Anna was previously Castiel's superior officer. The textual reading of this scene is that commanding officer and subordinate relationship is the history Castiel is referring to. If you look at it through a different lens, Cas "served under her" in a different way entirely. I know its established that Anna is a virgin, but I don't think that a lack of a sexual relationship can discredit a romantic undertone to their "history". Now we all know Uriel is a scumbag, but he served under Anna all the same. So why is Cas given the spotlight during this scene? At this point, he isn't a major character. He's only had a bit more screen time than Uriel. I think this is to give the audience a feeling of Cas and Anna having a more invested relationship with the each other than she had with Uriel before she fell.

Another point to draw from this scene is Anna saying Cas doesn't know the feeling. She has been gone from Heaven for just over 20 years at this point. SO even though we know Castiel has been experiencing emotions and doubts, Anna has no way of being privy to that information, assuming him to still be a Good Little Soldier. I'll come back to this later.

NOW. Let's jump forward a few episodes. In 4x16 "On the Head of a Pin" Anna and Castiel have a conversation alone, when Dean is preparing to torture Alastair for information on who has been killing angels. And there's a lot to unpack there. Let's start with when she first shows up.

CASTIEL: You shouldn't be here. We still have orders to kill you.

ANNA: Somehow I don't think you'll try. Where's Uriel?

We have to ask ourselves WHY doesn't she think he'll try? The last interaction between the two of them makes it clear that she still thinks Cas is Heaven's hammer, "Orders are orders, I know." The viewer gets the benefit of being able to piggy back onto the previous conversation Cas and Dean had, where Cas confesses to Dean his superiors believed him to be experiencing emotions, the "doorway to doubts". But last time we see Anna and Cas interact, we see that she doesn't believe he can feel. So what can we draw from that? It has been established that they have history, which we all believe to be them working together. BUT would just working together cause Cas to disobey an order from Heaven? No. If anything, it would make it EASIER for him to follow through on the orders he was given to kill her, since she knows he has no choice but to comply. She had already made Cas aware that she knows he has no choice but to do Heaven's bidding. This change in her, originally KNOWING Cas had no choice but to follow orders to now, where she doesn't think he'll even try begs the question, WHAT'S DIFFERENT? Cas had an audience. He had Uriel there, who would no doubt follow through if Cas couldn't. Who would sell him out to his superiors if he couldn't kill her or tried to let her go free. This is only further proven by her follow up question, inquiring Uriel's whereabouts.

Cas follows almost all his orders from Heaven, the only ones he disobeys or, at the least, disagrees with that we have seen thus far is when it involves Dean, someone he has a profound bond with. SO what if he has a different type of profound bond with Anna? Something a little less profound obviously, but a significant relationship all the same. Throughout the show, we only ever see Cas betraying Heaven for those he loves and cares for. His intentions are always pure, albeit overwhelmingly misguided. It can be argued that she is his sister, but I don't think that really cuts it. I think in just this one scene, it could be viewed that way, but when you look at this show as a whole, it just isn't enough.

After Anna brings up to Castiel that it might not be God calling the shots anymore we have this:

ANNA: The father you love. You think he wants this? You think he'd ask this of you? You think this is righteous?

CASTIEL can't meet her eyes.

ANNA: What you're feeling? It's called doubt.

This is really only notable because of how much more qualified Anna is to make this observation than basically anyone because she herself has felt that. It is also her first acknowledgment that Castiel is beginning to feel things. It continues with this:

ANNA touches CASTIEL's hand.

ANNA: These orders are wrong and you know it. But you can do the right thing. You're afraid, Cas. I was too. But together, we can still-”

CASTIEL: Together?

CASTIEL yanks his hand away.

CASTIEL: I am nothing like you. You fell. Go.

ANNA: Cas.

CASTIEL: Go.

First of all, I will fight you if you think that hand touch is platonic. No way. Don't believe you. Beyond that though, this whole exchange screams lovers' quarrel to me. "You're afraid, Cas" is Anna further acknowledging Castiel's burgeoning feelings. "I was too" is calling back to her falling. She was scared to make the decision to rebel. The ultimate end to their relationship was Anna choosing to fall. Castiel pulls his hand away when she says "together" and that is the part he repeats and gets hung up on. He reacts as if her suggesting they do something together is almost a betrayal. Perhaps because the last time she suggested they do something together (like fall?) she didn't wait for him. She did it on her own. He gets hung up on her word choice because he can't believe they could do anything together again. This reading of the scene is furthered when we take into account what Anna says before Cas cuts her off. "We can still." The writers allowing the word "still" to be said is IMPORTANT. If she had just said "we can", the viewer can read into that a new beginning. Together, we can rebel. Together, we can change Heaven. BUT that "still". That implies a conversation had countless times before. We can still do what we had planned to do. You can still what, Anna? Still fall together? Still rebel together? Still follow the plan you two had set up before you fell without him?

Now, Cas's verbal response is just as important. "I am nothing like you. You fell." speaks to their differences being that she took action, not that he doesn't feel that way too. At this point, it has already been established that he DOES feel the same way as she does and did. And honestly, up until the "together, we can still" it seemed like she was gaining ground with our favorite angel. It was that reminder that there is no longer a "together" for them, the reminder that they can pick up where they left off, that she lost him. The reminder of their history is where their differences lie. They are just alike in their beliefs. Cas is nothing like her in the sense that he didn't fall. That he didn't do anything about how he feels/felt. The whole scene reads like a generically written past lovers fight where one person says "you left, not me" or "you changed, not me", but in the context of the show we get "you fell, not me."

Flash forward a couple of scenes. Cas has just learned that it is URIEL that is killing the angels. What an asshole, amirite? After learning this world shattering news, Cas calls for Anna.

CASTIEL: Anna. Anna, please.

The streetlight above CASTIEL flickers. He looks up, then turns around.

ANNA: Decided to kill me after all?

CASTIEL; I'm alone.

ANNA: What do you want from me, Castiel?

CASTIEL: I'm considering disobedience.

ANNA nods.

ANNA: Good.

CASTIEL: No, it isn't. For the first time, I feel...

ANNA: It gets worse. Choosing your own course of action is confusing, terrifying.

ANNA puts her hand on CASTIEL's shoulder. He looks at it; she drops it.

ANNA: That's right. You're too good for my help. I'm just trash. A walking blasphemy.

ANNA turns to walk away.

CASTIEL: Anna.

ANNA stops.

CASTIEL: I don't know what to do. Please tell me what to do.

ANNA turns back.

ANNA: Like the old days? No. I'm sorry. It's time to think for yourself.

ANNA vanishes.

Now, I will be calling back to this scene in regards to the relationship Dean and Cas have, since this scene follows Sam and Cas talking at the hospital while Dean is injured. (Spoiler alert: the disobedience Cas is considering is to save Dean, big surprise, yeah?) But, its also important in regards to the Cas/Anna relationship as well. Cas calls for Anna because he knows she has felt all this before. He knows that if anyone can give him direction, its going to be someone that has experienced it all before. But once again, she tries to establish physical connection with him, and Cas is wholeheartedly NOT about it. The scenes from this episode between the two of them SCREAM old girlfriend trying to get back with her ex boy to me. As someone previously involved in a lengthy on again/off again relationship, maybe I'm reading too much of my own experiences into it, but I just really don't think so. This is a bit too on the nose for that. Even Anna's response feels like that to me. "I'm just trash. A walking blasphemy." It's her saying, oh I see, I forgot, you're too good for me. Using self-deprecation to try and score some pity points. I see you, girl. I see what you're trying to do. Cas steers the conversation back to what he originally called on her for, direction in regards to his feelings.

And Anna, little red-headed fire pistol that she is, fires back with some sass. "Like the old days? No. I'm sorry. It's time to think for yourself." Now, textually, we can view this as her referring to when she was his superior. But with all this evidence of a previous relationship, and the implications of their conversation when Dean was torturing Alastair ("we can still") gives the subtextual reading of the "old days" referring to when they had likely begun talking/planning of rebelling and falling together.

Now if we view Anna as a past relationship of Castiel's, it makes all of season 4 way more Destiel centered. Perpetuating the idea the Destiel was always intended. Granted, Castiel was only originally going to be in a handful of episodes. I think 3 tends to be what I've heard the most. Now if that's the case, we can make the assumption that episode 7 was not originally going to have Cas, and neither was episode 10 or 11. Which makes the argument even more compelling, since, as you will see in the third installment, Anna and Dean's relationship is basically Destiel up until that point smashed down in to a 2 episode arc. Stay tuned, kids!

Part 2 is now available here!

[neven-ebrez]

I'm having a lot of trouble connecting to S14 meta. Most are so upbeat about Dean's current state, seeing everything pointing to Dean's bisexuality & Destiel endgame. But the show doesn't see Dean just thru a shipping lens. And by side stepping around the Michael arc, I feel like these metas are ignoring how Dean's past trauma, his self worth issues, his search for an individual identity, etc have to be (painfully) resolved first. Maybe, as you say, it's b/c Sam's already in endgame?

I’m sorry but I’ve honestly got no clue what is being said!  I don’t actively seek out Destiel positive meta anymore because my opinion on the whole Destiel writing situation is pretty firm and imo is a fair opinion that doesn’t need to change because there’s no one out there who is writing “meta” who knows anything more than what I already do.  I absolutely mean that without arrogance.  I say this because I can’t know where your disconnect is because I’m not reading what you are reading so I can’t even begin to know where the trouble is.  

I’d say Dean’s current state isn’t any more or less hopeful than what it was in S13 after getting Cas, Mary and Jack back.  Dean is off visiting Mary and Bobby, maintaining his family connections.  Dean is out helping to train Jack because he listened to him and helped Jack with what he said he needed emotionally and physically.  All that is good.  Dean keeps a beat on what Cas is doing and he’s okay with him not 100% being by his side at all times, just so long as he’s in his life.  Same for things with Sam.  Everyone is alive so Dean “is good”.  It’s all very “healthy”.  But.  When push comes to shove, if any of this was taken away I’m really very sure Dean would slide right back down as far as the show needed him to go in order to buy time.  This is Sam and Dean’s dream, the best situation for their well being.  Their family is more or less “safe” and they are no longer isolated and desperate to be in one another’s pockets.  If this was threatened, if any of this was taken away, I think they’d be right back in the same mindset and situation they always have been in, desperate to get their “core” family back.  The impending loss of Jack threatens this more than any other current factor.  

The lens of “family” is how this show operates, and yes, some of that is romantically coded.  I’d argue Destiel has been actively coded as romantic since 6x20.  It’s been subtextually romantically structured for Dean’s happiness since S8 (arguably S7).  But structure and coding are not active plans for text.  In my opinion, there’s an active structure in place for Dean to be developed to a point to say something to get Cas to stay, and that there have been many textual bridges burned at this point, but none of that absolutely means romantic text is definite, only reasonably more likely.  I can say this, however.  Nothing is actively and structurally being done to address Dean’s bisexuality to bring that subtext into text.  Nothing.  Whether that’s positive or negative, I can’t say, due to the show’s age.  Subtextual hints are just that, hints.  And stuff like 8x13, 10x16, 11x04, 11x11 these are all unstructured vague texts that structurally lead nowhere, because the show historically has a problem with its own subtextual --- > textual follow through.  They are not writing a “coming out” arc for Dean.  It’s honestly too late for that.  A decade too late.  

We could get into the question of “Does the show not think this is needed then, for possible eventual text?” and at this point I’d argue, “No, they don’t think it is needed.”  Then we ask, “Why not?” and there’s two reasonable answers: because the subtext and vague text is never becoming anything more OR the show is gonna lean so hard into the vague text and visual presentation of Destiel that they think this will be enough to get their point across (which either could or could not leave room for interpretation, depending on what is done exactly).  A coming out narrative is always obvious to those that know what to look for, just look at what B99 did recently.  A coming out narrative always leans into getting both dialogue and (usually, eventually) visual text.  Supernatural has no interest in this from what I can tell and I’ve honestly been looking at it for a long ass time.  I could argue this is without malicious intent simply because of the show’s age, and the position showrunner Dabb has been left in, but it doesn’t change the fact that it is never happening at this point imo.  

Prior to the start of the season I think it was tough to see how Michael was going to translate structurally into Dean’s character development exactly.  But now I think it’s clearer.  He’s the father version of Dean’s childhood trauma in the same way Amara (and the whole MOC arc) was the mother version of the same.  Until Dean confronts his father (likely, physically) he’s standing still, much like he was without Cas in early S13.  And while Dean is reasonably surviving and living now, that’s not the same as truly thriving and stepping into the future.  I think if you are reading meta that doesn’t acknowledge this is needed (for Destiel, Dean’s general development, whatever) then you are simply reading someone who doesn’t understand what Michael structurally translates to.  Sometimes it’s hard to tell.  I was rough on S12 because I didn’t realize what the MOL really “translated” to until after the season was over.  Sometimes these things can only be seen at the end.  It’s even tougher when you see how Dabb likes to tell and structure two stories at once: the present season and the next one.  

I fell for the same trap and gave a real harsh structural opinion on early S13 because I didn’t yet recognize this as Dabb’s structuring style.  He did it in S12 too, but I was so thoroughly bored with the MOL that I didn’t bother to actively consider what they structurally translated to, how they and Mary effected Sam’s trajectory, nor how Dabb was having us consider the nature of Jack before he ever entered the picture.  It was an unknowable storyline at the time S12 aired so the full appreciation of the structure is only apparent on retrospection.  S13 was the same, with foreshadowing for Michael!Dean very, very early in the season.  Whatever is coming next, it’s likely that we’ve already been exposed to the idea of it.  I think the important thing to take away is this though: Dabb finishes what he starts.  That isn’t to say the show doesn’t have a history of dropping things, even structurally significant things, but Dabb so far doesn’t do this (with the exception of the fall through of Wayward, which has been reworked back into Supernatural).  If the structure is saying Dean needs to confront his dad about his past trauma (but again, his repressed sexuality doesn’t seem to be a factor as I believe we would have gotten heavy mirrors by now if the show was going to do this in a textual way), then I think that’s exactly what we are going to get.  The show structurally blamed Mary.  Now it structurally blames John.  

And then none of this is even touching Cas’ side of things.  He’s happy and accepting that no matter what he’s got himself.  He’s in a good mental place.  He doesn’t even care about his powers and “usefulness” anymore in the way he used to and he’s honestly much better for it.  There’s still shame, I think, in how he views how he wants Dean in his life (and here the show has provided a lot of structural support and this is honestly like a flavor of a coming out narrative, closer than anything Dean himself has anyway). But before that, I think if he had the option he’d still like to try and help Heaven.  And we know he’s going to be drawn back in to something there soon...  

There’s still a lot to address.  For them both.  The fact these structures exist, and that they exist around them and between them both (Cas is absolutely essential to Dean’s well being and his future courtesy of S13), tells us how the show approaches its own endgame.  But I can’t say this enough, neither one of these structures (not Dean’s leveled on dialogue and not Cas’ leveled on action) present a narrative that requires explicit romantic text or action to be resolved.  This is something that must always be kept in mind imo, so I don’t mind saying it as much as I have to as a balance to all the optimism and hope.  I do think, however, that the chances of text are greater now than they ever had been (whereas before me saying this was just wishful thinking against unknowable pacing).  For whatever that’s worth to those that care to read my opinions on this.

[nerdylittleshit]

Thoughts about Spn 13x21

SPOILERS! SPOILERS! SPOILERS!

Welcome to this week’s episode of ALL THE FEELS. Featuring the hit singles “I Just Wanna Make Love To You”, “Another One Bites The Dust” and “Father & Son”.

This might as well be Beren’s last episode (if they hopefully pick up “Wayward Sisters”), so he made sure he delivered. And boy, he did! I wasn’t quite sure in which direction the episode would go, but I wasn’t expecting THAT. This episode moved the characters where they needed to be for the big finale, both locally as emotional. As I expect the last two episodes to be rather plot heavy, this episode focused more on the character themselves, their current state of minds, as well as the questions about their future.

But as always, let’s have a closer look!

Home Alone

We start the episode with Sam’s dream of his family reunited in the bunker, eating pizza. The scene reminded me of the end of 10x18 and 12x02; both times the family reunion foretold a tragic event (Charlie’s death and Mary choosing to leave her sons). And even though the scene is not real, in the end the one who dreamt it is taken away.

Of course the dream tells us also something about how Sam sees his family. Everyone scolds Dean for his eating habits, but I really think this is more Sam’s view than anyone else’s. Because as Dean said, 7 slices of pizza is not even an entire pie, and he is a grown man. I mean I eat an entire pizza if I want to, so. And then of course there is Cas nagging, but later giving Dean another slice anyway (which interesting enough happens after Sam left the room), which is their usual old married couple behaviour, but this is still how Sam sees them. It is also possible that this little moment actually happened, and Sam integrated the memory into his dream. We also get another mention of John, whose absence in their family dinner is made textual.

In the real world Rowena and Gabriel have both agreed to help Sam & Dean to get their family back, preparing the spell to open the rift. Once again after 13x13 Grace is associated with sex; Gabriel demands some time alone to extract his grace (to Dean’s horror in his room), but then his juice is not strong enough to get it up. The rift of course. To be honest I could have done without all the sexual innuendo, but at least it wasn’t as cringeworthy as when Bucklemming do it.

I was also not even a little bit surprised that Rowena and Gabriel hooked up, I called it. And really they are perfect for each other. They have both been characters who in the past only did what was good in their own interest, who faked their deaths, both also killed by Lucifer, and who are now at a turning point in their lives. Isn’t it interesting that they only met because they both agreed to help the Winchesters, because they have both changed?

Lucifer is then literary haunted by his past, as the two people he killed come back to get him. And by now there is really an incredible long list of characters who want to see him dead, so I hope it is a group effort that kills him in the end.

Rowena is the one left in charge to babysit Lucifer (after Sam made sure she is ok with that, bless his heart) and this is the part where the plot demands certain characters to act a certain way, despite all logic not do so. Because they have carefully avoided to mention that they know where Jack is and of course Rowena could have simply use a spell to silence Lucifer. But as I said the plot demanded that Lucifer would learn about the whereabouts of his son and break free to get him, so here we are.

And then of course we have Rowena who shows that she really changed after all. Because the old Rowena would have gone, wouldn’t have made it her problem that Sam & Dean are trapped in another world. But in a strange twist of destiny they have become the only allies she has left, and just as she couldn’t kill Sam she now can’t leave them behind.

Strangers In A Strange Land

The gang lands in the apocalypse world, and it is clear that only Dean has mastered the superhero landing. Gabriel though lands in Cas’s lap and then we get a reaction shot from Dean. Twice. I wonder why that is, but I guess we will never know.

We also learn that angels have a built-in-GPS (convenient) and then we see a short conversation between Cas and Gabriel, where Gabriel learns about heaven’s current situation and Cas suggests that he could help. This could already foretell what role Gabriel could be given next season, if he survives this season, that is. Part of me thinks however that would be too easy, and that the angels might instead turn to AU!Michael for help, as there is still a big chance neither Gabriel or Lucifer will survive this season (Gabriel as part of his redemption arc, Lucifer because he sucks).

I have written in another episode review before that I really like the exploration of the apocalypse world; back in season 5 the concept of the apocalypse was rather abstract, now we see how the world would have evolved from that. We learn that the monsters there, namely the vampires, turn back to an almost animalistic form, caused by starvation (that first vampire did remind me of Nosferatu to be honest). Back in 12x23 we saw a demon in the apocalypse world, full with horns, and now I wonder if it looked like that as a consequence of the apocalypse as well.

The two strangers our team met seemingly didn’t react to the fact that Cas and Gabriel are angels (which ultimately became clear when Cas couldn’t pass the angel warding). They were either too afraid to ask or it does imply that even in the apocalypse world are still some angels left who help humanity.

Then of course the big event that shaped the entire episode and probably the outcome of the season happens: Sam dies. This of course is a reminder of 11x17, the other episode where Sam randomly died (I love how this sentence makes only sense in our fandom). Both episodes are reminders that Sam and Dean can die on any hunt. Yes they are experienced and perhaps better hunters than most, but the risk is always there. 11x17 featured werewolves, now we have vampires, both monsters they faced before, and Sam even says that they faced worse than a nest of vampires. And by now we as the audience, and the Winchesters themselves expect to go out with a big bang.

The difference we see then compared to 11x17 is Dean’s reaction. Back then Dean killed himself in order to bargain with Death to bring Sam back (only to learn that Sam was still alive). This time however he doesn’t. It is Cas who follows Sam and who then tells Dean that Sam is gone and that there is nothing left for them to do. And Dean, heartbroken, trusts Cas on this. Which is huge. But he also knows that Cas would have done anything he could to save Sam.

And it is not just Dean and Cas who have to face Sam’s death, but Mary and Jack as well. Mary who just said last episode that she can’t lose another boy. And Jack who is facing his first real loss (he never had a chance to get to know his mother).

Of course as an audience we already know that Sam would come back somehow, so the question is why kill him in the first place? For one thing to tie him to Lucifer, because this season everyone has to face their abusers and their worst nightmares. Lucifer bringing back Sam from the dead is a dark mirror to Cas bringing back Dean from hell. Sam is just a means to an end for Lucifer to get to his son (though I admit I was worried for a minute that Lucifer wanted Sam to say “yes”). But it means more to Sam, because now he owns his life to his abuser. And just as Rowena he realizes that he can never truly escape Lucifer.

Dean had to experience the death of his brother again, after he admitted last episode that he doesn’t care about his own life as long as Sam is ok. Sam’s death and the return of Lucifer are two of his worst nightmares coming through. By now he is willing to do whatever it takes to kill Lucifer. Even giving his own life… in the hands of someone who had the power to kill Lucifer.

We end with the reunion of Lucifer and Jack, with the big question of how Jack will react to his biological father. We know that in the past he had seemed afraid of Lucifer, had feared his own potential to go dark side. He sees Sam, Dean, Cas and Mary as his family and it is possible his mother has told him about the abuse she had to suffer from Lucifer. And yet I don’t think Jack would kill his father, unless he threatens his chosen family. Jack is too kind, too innocent, someone who wants to believe in the good of everyone, perhaps even his father. I’m really curious how this relationship will develop.

The other two characters they will likely again are Lucifer and AU!Michael. Lucifer already told Sam that they need his help to beat this Michael. So will they make a deal with the devil to kill Michael? Or will they make a deal with Michael to kill Lucifer?  

Only two episodes left and I’m pretty sure Sam’s dream will remain only this, a dream.

[mittensmorgul]

I feel like this is probably something you have a lot of thoughts on, but you don't have to go in depth if you don't want (if you do that's also great!) Do you think about cas classifying dean as family and vice versa is a hurdle to be overcome if textual d/c is a thing that's happening? Obviously family includes your significant other, but as far as fiction, I feel like it's code for platonic feelings, because I try to think of any tv couple that started as "family" and I can't. Thanks :)

Hi! I’m sorry I’ve been sitting on this message for a couple of days, but it’s not actually something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. At least not specifically like this.

I mean, the first thing that came to mind at your question was @destieldrabblesdaily‘s post from back during s11 (aah, s11 gave us so much...) about how they were slowly ticking off all these things from a checklist labeled “Obstacles to Canon.”

http://mittensmorgul.tumblr.com/post/145130443365/hello-all-the-episode-did-in-general-was-tick

There are four main points on Shirley’s list, only two of which I think are so completely obvious in canon now that there’s really nothing more to say on either subject:

the vessel consent issue: It’s Cas’s body. There’s no Jimmy in there. Cas has been rebuilt and resurrected multiple times by God, died and been burned, and came back from the empty with what must be yet another entirely new physical body. That is Castiel’s body. Period. There’s no “but what if...” left to argue on this point.

the concern that the show would morph into something it’s not: the focus of the show wouldn’t somehow shift to Dean and Cas’s romantic adventures. It wouldn’t become a comedy, or exclude Sam. The tone and format of the show wouldn’t need to change at all, and that was pretty conclusively proved not only back in 11.19 with the way Jesse and Cesar’s relationship was presented, but *waves hand across all of s13* the show’s gonna do what the show’s always done. Nothing needs to change about the show’s format or structure.

The other two points might be conclusively obvious to some of us (and honestly I have personally been satisfied by how they continue to handle these issues), but there’s still ground they CAN cover toward making these things more explicit for the general audience. And I’d argue that they HAVE been doing just that consistently, and even rather explicitly now in s13:

Dean’s sexuality: Shirley’s original post covered this extremely well from where we were back in s11 (so go read that right now if you haven’t already). I’ve added a heck of a lot to my Dean Is Bi tag since 11.19, so I’d argue that at the very least it’s not something they’ve tried to back away from over the last few seasons. They may not have come out and explicitly said it in so many words, but the show has continued to escalate the subtext to the point where even the general audience has been noticing it in droves.

The Bromance Zone: Back in Shirley’s original post, this was accepted as fairly conclusively evident from Dean’s pining for Cas back in s11, and how it was made painfully and explicitly clear in 11.18... but whoa have we ever had a lot of logs thrown on the bromance pyre since then. And I think this is the point you’re concerned about in your question above.

You stated you couldn’t think of a single romantic couple in fiction that began as “family” or, I suppose in this case as “found family,” or “family of choice.” But I’d like to suggest that most successful romantic couples do begin as friends, regardless of whether they consider each other “family” before their relationship becomes romantic.

Confession time: I have never watched the show Friends, but I believe they considered themselves a sort of found family, right? And there was at least one pair of them that were actually brother and sister? And didn’t several of them become romantically involved by the end of the series? I remember seeing posts to this effect, but correct me if I’m wrong...

Another canon ship that’s often been paralleled to destiel is Castle/Beckett. If you’ve never watched Castle, they’re a pretty textbook enemies to friends to lovers to HEA, and it took like five seasons for them to get to that point. Thing is, the nature of the work they did together (police work) created the same sort of “found family” feelings that the Winchesters’ collection of allies and friends has. And their relationship included so many of the same tropes that Dean and Cas has... right down to the “deathbed love confessions,” amnesia, miscommunication, mutual pining... you name it... And we thought FIVE YEARS was a slow burn. Thing is, every time they seemed to get close to making some sort of dramatic love confession, for years, they’d back down at the last moment for one reason or another. For YEARS, they settled for what could arguably be considered a sort of familial closeness, because that’s all they thought they could have. Circumstance just kept stepping in the way...

So on that note, I’d argue that practically EVERY slow burn romantic endgame story progressed through this “awkward found family” stage. They’re closer than what could be called “friends” in the strictest platonic sense of the word, but short of confessing undying romantic love and attraction, the strongest word in their vocabulary for the care and affection they feel they’re allowed to demonstrate to one another is family.

So back to Supernatural...

S12 approached this issue from two directions for most of the season, with a Compare/Contrast using Mary’s story paralleled to Castiel’s for most of the season, showing us a distinct difference between what FAMILY feels and does for one another, and whatever the heck it is that Dean and Cas feel and do for one another. On the other side of the coin, they doubled down on demonstrating the blatant differences from how Sam sees Cas as a brother, and how Dean sees Cas as a /////brother/////. It was demonstrated over and over again that despite using the same word to describe what Cas is to them, it’s unequivocally DIFFERENT for Dean. That leaves us to wonder WHY.

12.10 makes it clear what the angels believe Dean is to Cas, his “human weakness.” We were shown Dean’s feelings for and connection to Cas, that Dean refused to save himself from Ishim when he knew that using the banishing sigil could possibly have injured Cas further, or even killed him. It wasn’t a risk he was willing to take. That moment may have been a small part of that episode, but right there, Dean had no reason to believe that Ishim wasn’t about to murder him. He surrendered his own life for Cas.

12.12 has Cas’s deathbed love confession, which people are still debating from a linguistic standpoint. But I’d argue that the fact we’re able to debate it at all is even further evidence that it’s something that we’re supposed to be thinking about, and wondering about. Or else why would it even be a debate in the first place.

12.15 has Cas disappearing back to Heaven, the ambiguous phone call moment where Sam hangs up with Mary and signs off with “Love you,” while Dean hangs up with Cas. Loads of us had a holy hell did Dean just say that??? moment and had to rewind to confirm that it was Sam saying it to Mary. Because of that debate left over from 12.12. Again, the fact that we all had to stop and blink at the implication shows that something is definitely different now.

Which brings us to freaking 12.19 and the goddamned mixtape. No amount of Bro and Pal and Buddy on Dean’s part can negate “It’s a gift, you keep those.” Sorry folks, them’s the rules.

And can we talk for a moment about how explicitly clear s13 has made Dean’s feelings, his grief that he textually admitted by yelling it all in Sam’s face was all about Cas. Grief so powerful it somehow activated Jack’s powers (which he had no control of at that point and didn’t even understand that his powers had any part in Cas’s resurrection even after 13.06) and poked Cas awake in the Empty.

And then we have 13.06. I still haven’t recovered from 13.06.

The connection between Dean and Cas intensifies in 13.07, both through Dean giving Cas that same line from 12.10 (Don’t do anything stupid) which he clarified back in s12 wasn’t borne of anger, but of worry. Worry that 12.12 had honed into love, and 13.01 punched us all in the face with as Dean broke down and screamed his grief at God. I mean, the differences between how Sam considers Cas “family” and how Dean does is inarguable at this point.

I’d suggest that the definition of “family” isn’t so much something the show needs to clarify at this point, but something that’s been written all over the last season and a half in invisible ink, and all they need to do at this point is hold it up to a light bulb for the entire text to become clearly visible to everyone.

[margarittet]

“Tombstone” (1993): cowboys and gay subtext

Disclaimer: I wrote this text long time ago, when we first heard the title of the episode, and we knew perfectly nothing about the plot - I just somehow never got to posting it. Back then I never DREAMED that we will be getting Cas and Dean roleplaying Texas rangers, and running around in cowboy hats. (What a time to be alive!) Anyway, I hope this little rant about how “Tombstone” (1993) is relevant to tomorrow’s episode will still be fun to read.

Disclaimer 2: I do not equal effeminate/weak bodied/flamboyant = gay, just different from the surroundings in the context of this movie. At the same time, the movie uses cheap stereotypes to characterize their characters in subtext.  It is 1990s, and this is not good, but it happened back then.

File it under the “Things I do because of my “Supernatural” obsession”: I watch and read stuff I hadn’t expected to before I started watching the show - you know, like a 1993 western telling the story of the legendary gunman Wyatt Earp and his two brothers, hunting and killing some Old West gang of outlaws in a frontier town.

Nevertheless, I did watch it, and now I will write about it because I am painfully aware that episode 13x06 is called “Tombstone”, that it has a western theme, and that it’s an episode by the writer who gave us “Stuck in the Middle with You” (12x12). It is therefore quite possible that the source material is relevant to the final product - plus with Tarantino being a western buff, it all connects nicely.

I will not speculate about the actual episode since we have almost nothing to go on at the moment - besides a few pictures from which we can gather a couple of facts:

The boys are most probably in Dodge City at some point (we saw pictures from the set saying “Dodge City” on one of the buildings). The city is about 3,5 hour drive from Lebanon - where the bunker is - and it was here Wyatt Earp was the sheriff before he moved to Tombstone. It also is “the cowboy capital of the US” because of it being the main city on the old “cattle trail”, famous for its cow markets and for its gunfights. We saw Dodge City on the show once before when Krissy’s dad was attacked in “Adventures in Babysitting”, but otherwise this is the first time we visit it,

We also know that at some point we will visit a cowboy-themed motel.

[While all of this gives us no story hints whatsoever, I think it’s safe to assume that the keywords for the episode are “cowboys” and “western”. Since Davy Perez’ most noteworthy episode last year was Tarantino themed, I am not remotely surprised this season for him is “westerns” (he is also bringing us the train heist episode later this season - yes, please.)]

I can, however, present the movie “Tombstone” that may or may not have something to do with the final episode (we’ll see). As I am aware that not everyone is as dedicated (read: bored and obsessed) as me to check out every pop culture reference on the show, I decided to share my newly aquired wisdom with the class.

Ok, so the story. The movie tells a (rather idealized) version of the shootout that occured in the frontier town of Tombstone, Arizona, between Wyatt, Virgil and Morgan Earp (plus their friend, Doc Holliday) and the gang of outlaws who called themselves “the Cowboys” - known as the gunfight at OK Corral. I will talk just about the movie here (since the historical truth is a little different, and a compare-and-contrast historical analysis is not what we need right now).

So, Wyatt Earp got famous being the marshall of Dodge City, while also being a pacifist and trying to avoid starting conflicts as much as possible. Tombstone was supposed to be his retirement - he wanted to settle down, finally having his family around, and earn some money for a comfortable and silent life. He came to Tombstone together with his two brothers and their wives; upon arrival, he found out that his best friend, Doc Holliday, also ended up in the town, searching for his luck and trying to cure his TB - an illness that will later kill him at the age of 35. 

We meet Wyatt Earp when he has people closest to his heart right around him, and is very content with his life. He is also very adamant to leave the past and the fame behind, and start a completely new chapter in Arizona. The Earp brothers find out very quickly, however, that Tombstone is very far from the sleepy abode the name might suggest. The town is full of colourful characters - gamblers, gunslingers, preachers, prostitutes, outlaws etc. And of course there is a conflict boiling just below the surface.

Unwillingly, one by one the Earp party is pulled back into being the law officers again, and into the bloody frontier war.

SPOILERS AHEAD (you know, if you wanna watch the movie yourself)

So many themes here that remind me of SPN!

We have a duty bound man who meets a maverick and outgoing woman. She offers him excitement and adventures, and of course he falls for her, but doesn’t let himself have what he wants because of his mission, his situation (he was married at the time), and the need to act honourably. He is, however, perfectly aware of his feelings and that a part of this behaviour is fear of following his heart because he had never done this before in his life;

It takes a death of his closest friend to realize life is too short, and he should go for what he wants, which he does;

Before this, however, he follows the murder of one of his brothers by going on a shooting spree, and killing every bad guy he can find until they all are eradicated,

There is also so much gay subtext between two of the characters that the movie is always mentioned when “gay westerns before Brokeback Mountain” are discussed.

“Tombstone” as a lesson in gay subtext:

It is never mentioned in the movie that Billy Zane and Jason Priestley’s characters are gay. Yet, it is so obvious from the way they are portrayed that even people who are not used to reading subtext are perfectly aware the two characters are most probably lovers.

The characterization

The first thing we notice is the look of the characters. The two man are both dressed in a way that differenciates them from the enviroment around them - Billy Zane’s Fabian is completely different from the masculine world of the Old West, with his soft hair, boyish good looks, clean shaven face, and elaborate outfits.

Jason Priestley’s Billy is more in accordance with the tough world of Tombstone - he is the deputy sheriff after all, and can be tough when needed - but still, in his time off he is portrayed as soft, effeminate, especially while contrasted with the criminals he usually runs with. His outfit is not too different from everyone else’s, but he is the only person to wear a bowtie (everyone else wears neckties or bandanas) and spectacles. He is portrayed as a slightly weaker and more vulnerable person.

Exposition in relation to other characters

The two characters sexuality is shown, not talked about, especially through the kind of interractions they have with other people.

We meet Fabian when he steps out of a carriage, all confident, flamboyant, well-groomed and witty. His person awakens the reaction in the manly-men of the West, which is shown by Morgan Earp asking the local sheriff “What kind of town is this?” (at which point Wyatt shushes him, as if he said something offensive). 

To hammer the point home, Fabian is an actor who travels with a gorgeous woman, but obviously has no sexual interest in her - they are best buddies who ogle the Earps together, and comment on their attractiveness.

As for Billy, we meet him when he arrives at the theatre to see the actors’ performance, and right away he is shown bullied by the Cowboys. The quips obviously refer to his sexuality (“Hey, sister boy, gimme some!”). He doesn’t try to shoot them down, just tries to avoid being touched. Quickly he is “saved” by the leader of the gang, and seated beside him. Shortly afterwards the camera shows us the difference between the Cowboys and the deputy sheriff’s approach to Fabian onstage (mocking vs in awe).

Later, during a blink-and-you-miss-it moment, Billy grabs Fabian in the saloon, and cordially invites him to his table. This is the last time we see the two men together, alive.

Fast forward to the end of the movie: Billy is riding around with the Cowboys while Wyatt Earp runs around, shooting everything he can find. The outlaws stop a carriage and find the actress and Fabian in the back: the actor is dead, shot by the Cowboys. Everything here happens completely beside the dialogue and the rest of the scene. Billy watches dead Fabian while the actress holds her dead friend, and angrily discusses the war with the leader of the gang.

(Just for your viewing pleasure, I created THIS GIFSET of the scene)

It is never said out loud that Bily and Fabian are lovers. It is still pretty damn obvious. It is perfectly clear from the way they are presented, their interactions with other characters, and the (very limited) onscreen interactions with each other.

“Tombstone” is a cowboy movie that takes a step towards the actual reality of the Wild West, and makes it almost textual. Homosexuality was a natural part of the cowboy lifestyle - it was after all a society full of men, where the men to women ratio was around 8:1. Everyone had needs, not everyone had money, and love and sexual encounters between men were as common as in any other, similar enviroment. There is a reason why the uber-masculine cowboy stereotype is one of the main figures in American gay iconology - think everything from “Midnight Cowboy” to The Village People and “Brokeback Mountain”.

Why Davy Perez chose to call his episode after the kettle-market town in Arizona, but also after the movie with such a strong gay subtext?

WE MAY NEVER KNOW!

[awed-frog]

You said in your s13 meta that the narrative suffers from keeping Destiel in the subtext. Can you elaborate a bit on that? For example, would you have them enter a romantic relationship now (or in earlier seasons) or would you be okay with it only happening towards the end of the show as long as it gets shoved more into 'text' level along the way - however that would look? How would you personally go about it in a way that fits into the narrative of the show?

Well - I think there are a bunch of reasons why keeping Destiel in the subtext is hurting the show (narratively). Off the top of my head -

1) This kind of subtext - ie, scattered clues that can be as obscure as beer labels or paintings on the walls - is usually reserved for Big, Shocking Revelations - for instance, the identity of the murderer in a thriller. I can’t think of one single example in which the subtextual clues led to a ‘Guess what - she actually luuuuurves him!’, and there’s good reason for that - a romantic attraction is not interesting enough to leave the audience to guess it and half perceive it out of the corner of their eyes. A hidden subtext should be the kind of thing where you gasp and stare when it’s revealed and then you go back and rewatch the whole thing in disbelief (also annoyance, because part of you is not surprised by this at all, but you never listened to that part ‘cause your a gullible fool). For younger readers, the revelations about Snape in HP fit this model well; for older viewers, a good example is the ending of The Others or Fight Club. Romantically speaking, the only close equivalent to what Supernatural is doing goes something along the lines of sexual awakening - a beautiful example is Tracy Chevalier’s Girl with a Pearl Earring, in which it’s very clear for an adult reader that Griet is attracted to Vermeer from the very first moment she sees him, and yet the UST builds and builds because Griet herself is too young and inexperienced to see it - and when she finally realizes it, holy shit. Even in that case, though, the romance wasn’t exactly subtextual - every single adult around Griet wondered at it - her mother warned her to stay away from Vermeer, Vermeer’s wife was openly jealous from the second Griet started working for their household, the other servants were also suspicious of why Griet was spending so much time alone with Vermeer and so on and so forth. The tension came from the fact Griet herself didn’t understand what was going on - not from the thing being completely subtextual. So, to me, the fact Supernatural thinks a (gay) love story needs to be put in the subtext - it’s more than offensive - it’s just not effective.

2) Destiel is destroying Sam’s characterization, because they increasingly use him to contrast Dean’s feelings, which means Sam is mostly forced not to care about Cas at all. And so, while the two of them had some stolen moments where they were allowed to be themselves (ie, people who like each other and feel a deep affection for each other), Sam is often shown to be cold and unconcerned whenever Cas is mentioned. When Dean was fretting about Cas being possessed by Lucifer, for instance, Sam always acted like he couldn’t care less - which was annoying, not only on Cas’ behalf, but also because Sam knows what Lucifer is like, and he would never be so indifferent about Lucifer possessing anyone. Or when Cas was suffering from PTSD and would spend his days watching dog videos, again we had Dean (rightly, rationally) worried about him, while Sam brushed it off completely. Also the ‘it-gate’, remember that? And now, now Cas is actually dead, and this is still going on - Dean is very nearly broken, and Sam - Sam is fine with it. Doesn’t give a damn. And the thing is, if Dean’s love was out in the open, then they could let Sam care about Cas, because it would be textual that there’s still a difference there (Dean = lover, Sam = friend); but since that is not textual, this is what we’re left with - a join the dots game where they want us to wonder why Dean cares so much when Sam, the rational one, doesn’t care at all.

Moreover, the fact there are these huge subtextual secrets about Dean (that he’s bi, that he loves Cas) only makes him more interesting to write, while leaving nothing for Sam to do. It could even be argued that this is the true reversal of the Supernatual narrative - the first five seasons were about Sam and how he felt like a freak because of his Big Secret (which was textual: his psychic powers, and, later, his addiction to demon blood), while the next five seasons were about Dean and his Big Secret (and that only half worked, because everything is still subtextual, which means Dean’s narrative has not resolved in any neat, elegant way - nothing comparable to Swan Song - which also means the story is still about Dean, that it will be about Dean until the narrative knot is gone, and they seem adamant never to go there, so where does this leave us?).

3) Ironically enough, Destiel is also hurting Dean and Cas as characters. Cas, in particular, had an arc that was all about destroying his identity in earlier seasons (the break with Heaven and so on), and lately that’s shifted to building himself a new identity - his increasingly human feelings have been a big part of that, and to be fair, they did allow him to explore them - a journey that probably started with his rejection of Hannah and culminated in that infamous I love you - but this could have been done much better, and in a more coherent way, if Cas had been allowed to find Dean attractive as a potential romantic partner. And in a way, the same goes for Dean - we teetered on the edge of why things are different with Cas so many times, and they came closest, perhaps, in S8, but as long as they refuse to take that final step, it’s not clear, exactly, why Dean should care so much about Cas - about someone who’s far from perfect, and has betrayed them or let them down or hurt them many times in the past. And something else that only made sense if you squinted, of course, was Dean’s peculiar, sometimes volatile relationship with Crowley, and how his attitude to Crowley differed from Sam’s. I’ve seen people confused about that, but if you fill in the subtextual blanks - ie, Crowley loved Dean (as much as demons can love, that is), and they were actually together when Dean was a demon, and then had an awkward break-up when Crowley realized Dean could not love anyone as a demon, and would never love Crowley as a human - well - that’s suddenly a coherent narrative, isn’t it?

4) And finally, Supernatural is often built on parallels and mirrors, and the problem is, you need an equilibrium for that. If half your metaphor is out in the open, and the other half is subtextual, it just doesn’t work. That was one of the big problems with both S10 and S11 - remember the whole Colette story, which went nowhere? And how Amara represented the wrong way to love, contrasted with the right way, which was…what? And, sure, for some viewers that may work just fine, and others may even enjoy to be left guessing, but me - I like my symmetry, and I like honesty, and I found it profoundly frustrating that both those stories were left unfinished.

As to what I would do differently - I don’t particularly like fluff, and I don’t think either Cas or Dean are ready for a relationship right now, so I guess - what I would change is that I would make this thing between them textual but not to each other? There are many ways to do that - romantic movies basically live off them - character A talks to her friends or parents, has a revealing dream, thinks out loud, writes in a journal, does something incredibly stupid which makes it clear they’re madly in love - we’re spoiled for choice. The how and what, of course, depends on the world around your characters, and the specific challenges they face, which is why my way of bringing Dean and Cas together varies with the story I’m telling. In one fic, it’s Dean who comes forward and downright invites Cas to stay the night; in another, it’s Cas who demands that Dean comes clean about his feelings; in yet another one, Dean acknowledges those feelings, but says he can’t act on them because of Imminent Death and whatever else; and in the one I’m writing right now, my AU!S13, well - you’ll have to wait and see. For the show itself, I like a suggestion that’s been surfing through tumblr for a while - an episode featuring some ex of Dean’s (a man) so that Sam will be forced to put the pieces together, and next, some kind of conversation about Cas, and how Dean doesn’t feel worthy or ready or something. Sam shouldn’t play matchmaker (I know we like that in fanfiction, but I doubt that canon!Sam has either the skill or the inclination to do that), but knowing this very private thing about his brother - well - that can only be healthy, for both of them. And when it finally comes out (with Cas), I think it should be in anger, because that’s who Dean is - someone who blurts out things he never meant to say when he’s terrified and furious and worried out of his mind - and next, I’d have them separated, of course, because UST is a good thing and yay and keep it up. 

(Oh, and as for what I would be okay with - every single romantic relationship on Supernatural has been about falling into bed together, and Dean is a deeply sexual person, and we know Cas is not against that - at all, so no - I wouldn’t be happy with a five minute handshake at the very end, but I also wouldn’t be happy with the show changing everything it is jut to fit a romance in - and, most of all, I wouldn’t be happy with an ambiguous, ‘you’re the viewer, you decide’ Sherlock ending - nope. What I want is enough time for both characters to come to terms with how they’re feeling, followed by a clear, textual scene of them getting together, followed by their relationship being never brought up again as a central element of the show. Everything stays exactly the same, except sometimes Dean and Cas get a room just for the two of them, and Dean fixes Cas’ tie (which he does anyway), and Sam teases him about something or other because he’s a little shit, and Cas stares at Dean - a lot (which he does anyway), and maybe more hugs? and that’s it. They hunt, they do stuff, they face tragic choices - Supernatural shouldn’t be about a love story - it just shouldn’t hide it, because there’s nothing wrong with your main character being queer and it’s 2017 so maybe deal with it, show?)