#deltarune time loop theory

[ten-ninokuruwa]

fuck wait but time loop theory makes SO much sense in the context of kris knight too . kris always seems to have some sort of precognition of how things "should" go - getting to class late gets to pair them with susie, eating the pie gives them a chance to sneak out at night and gets susie to stay over so that she can be in the dark world they already planned from last night... that's always been one of the biggest and most intriguing mysteries to me, but a time loop would explain that so well...!!!

how many times would they have gone through this? how long would they have to try to get it perfect? this post in particular enchants me because it just made something Click . gaster is trying to create a "new future" with us, but what does that mean for the old future? how many futures have we gone through to get to where we are now? kris seems so familiar with what they're meant to be doing and i can't help but wonder how they got to that point.

of course there are many alternate explanations, i can't say there's enough evidence to solidly call it yet, but this is now the option i like the most right now. it's so so cool it's insane like if anyone else wants to tell me their thoughts and additional evidence on it my inbox is open for business bc i am HOOKED

[patchwork-crow-writes]

I agree that there's definitely something here! I'm struck by two quotes while reading this - "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results", and "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

I rant for a fair bit after this, so here's a read-more :P

Perhaps this is what is meant by "your choices don't matter" - a determination to make something of themselves is continually thwarted by the well-meaning but ultimately misguided intentions of the people who care about them. Someone wrapped in cotton wool, whose bad behaviour is always excused, who cannot escape their brother's shadow even after he's left town. Someone who is either treated as a lost cause, or given special treatment just to appease them. It's really difficult to grow and change under those circumstances, to begin to process and move on from the past, because the status quo has to be maintained, and almost no-one believes that Kris is actually capable of standing on their own two feet.

And in a way, Ralsei is the apotheosis of this. It's clear that he cares deeply for Kris, but the way it manifests is by putting them on a pedestal - insisting that they are special, always deferring to their opinion, attempting to coddle and shield them from any negative repurcussions... particulary with regards to Spamton NEO. He's like a weighted blanket - comfortable and reassuring when you want it, but has the potential to be stifling and suffocating.

And it's doubly-ironic when you consider his insistence that Kris's choices do matter, when his every thought and action is geared towards moving the narrative along its set path, inching closer to the fulfilment of his precious prophecy. You can't actually kill enemies unless and until he leaves you alone and you exploit a loophole with Noelle, and while you CAN screw up certain boss encounters (locking yourself out of Spamton's questline, or causing Berdly's arm to be injured in the Queen fight), none of the repercussions for those screwups ever land in Kris's lap - no-one blames Kris for this, and they do not suffer the injury themselves. You, and by extension Kris, are not allowed to make actual mistakes with actual consequences.

And the Gaster-Time-Loop theory is this written large. Things did not "go right" the first time, so let's just keep resetting until we're able to find the "true" or "best" ending for Kris... completely forgetting that without being allowed to actually suffer their adversities and grieve their losses, they will never actually be allowed to move past them.

Perhaps that's where Deltarune truly differs from Undertale - while the latter considers what would happen if a player follows their morbid curiosity by killing absolutely everything they come across, the former considers its opposite - a player who cannot stand to see the characters actually suffer, and who constantly iterates and strives to achieve a hypothetical "golden" ending for them, while disregarding the unintended negative consequences of their meddling.

...this went on for a while, sorry! The topic really interested me, so thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent about it! Really interesting thoughts overall! :)

time loop theory rn is admittedly mostly just Cool to me but im musing over the thematic implications and i think there's something there abt like... assuming the same thing will always help, trying to help without fully understanding the problem, etc. gaster is stuck trying to solve the problems of the dead timeline - saving Dess, getting Kris friends, etc - and doesn't notice that the solutions are damaging Kris much more and things are going very wrong. compassion without understanding, the act of "caring" without considering the recipient's needs.

and like, that happens to Kris a lot! ralsei comforting them after spamton neo, their dad's hugs, bratty talking about them like they still want to be azzy's hanger-on, ralsei Generally to be frank... they're treated like the kid they were and not the teen they are, and now gaster is treating them like someone they never even got to be.

i feel like there's echoes of this generally, like with clearcut mercy not always being the right approach and so on... i wonder if maybe we'll get a boss (secret or otherwise) with a Worse outcome for mercy, bc it doesn't address the underlying issues or something. an understanding that the desire to Do Good doesn't translate to doing Right.

idk this is pretty incoherent. deltarune is abt well meaning ableism ig

[gatorbites-imagines]

W. D. Gaster x Player male reader 

Ficlet 

Ive had this idea for a while, that the Player, aka the soul we control, gaining some kind of body or upper sentience, if that makes sense? Aka, both of them are kinda shapeless but not really. 

This takes place some place between Undertale and Deltarune, smth like the void we see at the start of chapter 1 of Deltarune. I saw somebody have a theory that its Gaster telling us to create a vessel, so ill go with that. 

Ive been a Gaster dickrider for years, but this is the first time actually writing him. Ive only wrote some sans and papyrus x reader stuff, somewhere. Its deleted now. 

I was feeling a little goofy, so yes, there's wingdings in this. I added translations, of course. 

It was hard to explain, the world between worlds, of existing but not really, to be everywhere and nowhere at once. You were simply too determined to die, even after everything was said and done, and Frisk and the monsters of the underground joined the surface and got to live their lives to the fullest. 

You knew you couldnt stay. Your continued existence in this world would keep the loop going. The only way to let them all be at peace was to leave. At that time you had only just been a soul. 

A powerful, glowing, bright red soul, pouring determination so thick that reality was fraying at the edges at times. But as you floated between worlds, your determination only seemed to brew, and with you, you grew. 

During these explorations you met Gaster, or perhaps parts of him, different parts and pieces of one man split across time and space. He was strange, really strange, but endearing.  

Being the only two beings stuck beyond time and reality itself did cause you two to get closer, and Gaster had been so intrigued when your heart-shape started changing. 

Gaster, being the scientist he was, only mumbled out a slurred and blurred “☞︎♋︎⬧︎♍︎♓︎■︎♋︎⧫︎♓︎■︎♑︎” (Fascinating), as he cradled your glowing form in his melted, glitching, solid, liquid, there but not, hands. They were boney, with large circular holes in them. Big enough for you to float through. 

Until your shape changed enough. First it was tendrils, like a droplet of coloring in water, how it spreads and dilutes. At first you two both feared you were ceasing to exist completely, that was before the tendrils solidified and started taking another form. 

The knowledge you had of humans, as you were sure you might have been one once, let you know your new form looked like a nervous system. It would have creeped you out, had you still possessed that ability. 

It didnt help that Gaster seemed to become more solid than you had ever seen him, the dark pits that were his eyes, flickering with small lights like weak candles.  

“☟︎□︎⬥︎📬︎📬︎📬︎ ⬥︎□︎■︎♎︎♏︎❒︎♐︎◆︎●︎📬︎ ✋︎ ♒︎♋︎❖︎♏︎ ■︎♏︎❖︎♏︎❒︎ ⬧︎♏︎♏︎■︎ ♋︎■︎⍓︎⧫︎♒︎♓︎■︎♑︎ ●︎♓︎🙵♏︎ ♓︎⧫︎” (How wonderful. I have never seen anything like it), he buzzed, his voice there, but also not, fading in and out like a phone call with bad reception. 

You almost felt embarrassed as the many tendrils that made up your being wound around his hands and arms, or what existed of them in this very plane of existence. Had Gasters own form not turned goopy and runny, like you knew it did when he was flustered. 

There was no sense of time where you two found yourself. This meant you got to grow and develop as much as you pleased, your being taking a form that fit you the best. Much to your and Gasters shared interest, that form was like that of a knight. 

Large and terrifying to enemies, but comforting to those who needed protection. It even had a long flowing panaches on your “helmet” (think Igris from Solo Leveling). The armor wasn't truly armor, it was... you. It was hard to explain, and made reality start bleeding together if you thought too hard, so you didn't. 

At least Gaster was downright tickled pink at your preferred form turning out to be a glowing red knight. His connection to... well... everything was more vast than you, and you had a feeling he was giggling about some inside joke. 

Especially in the way he would always cover his mouth and turn into shimmering waves of stars and space when he called you his “😐︎■︎♓︎♑︎♒︎⧫︎” (Knight). It felt like something you should know but... you just didn't. 

Having a physical body was great, as it allowed you to hold the pieces of Gaster that could exist on your plane. It was especially great when you guys realized your determination was so powerful it made him more solid. 

You guys couldn't really kiss like most couples. Your face was a helmet, and his was stuck in a helmet grimace, when he could actually create a solid enough head to begin with. 

It was a good thing you two didn't need that, as you two got away with simply coiling your beings together, like two snakes going at it, but with a lot more tendrils, slipping in and out of being. 

You were still so confused when Gaster was cuddled up against your armored chest, one of his many hands drawing shapes on the chest plate. Giggling about his “😐︎■︎♓︎♑︎♒︎⧫︎” (Knight).  

Especially when Gasters raspy melting voice giggled out a “🏱︎♏︎❒︎♒︎♋︎◻︎⬧︎ ♏︎❖︎♏︎■︎📬︎📬︎📬︎ ♋︎ ☼︎□︎♋︎❒︎♓︎■︎♑︎ 😐︎■︎♓︎♑︎♒︎⧫︎” (Perhaps even... a Roaring Knight), before he started giggling again, his edges blurring together as his hands slipping through you like smoke. 

Gaster never made much sense, but you guessed the same could be said about you. So, when Gaster one day appears, only through his voice this time, and asks you to create a vessel, you go along with it. 

There is a pull in your SOUL, or at least part of you, that needs to go somewhere, and you know Gaster is leading you. 

Even as the vessel is discarded, you just huff a chuckle to yourself and let a small piece of yourself go, following along with whatever adventure Gaster seems to need you on. 

The large part that remains with Gaster in the in-between, does shivering as his ghostly affection brushes over that tiny heart shaped piece before its sent on its way. What a nerd... but he's your nerd... 

[squidhominid]

One last Deltarune theory for the road

This one literally came to me while I was lying down in bed trying to get to sleep at like 8 in the fucking morning.

The trailer calls Deltarune 'Undertale's parallel story'. I think I figured out what that means.

UTDR is a time loop.

We can be pretty sure that the Sans and Papyrus in Undertale are the future versions of the ones from Deltarune.

They're the only ones who acknowledge the existence of toilets, when monsters in Undertale aren't supposed to need toilets since their food converts directly into energy, meanwhile monsters in Deltarune work like humans. Sans bleeds at the end of Genocide, and I'm starting to doubt the fanon explanation of it being ketchup.

Not only that, but Papyrus explicitly refers to a place with 'green grass' in his interview when asked about where he and Sans were 'before Snowdin', when nowhere in the Underground is like that, but Hometown is. This is pretty ironclad.

We know that Sans and Gaster must've worked together. There are the 'Gaster Blasters' in the Sans fight, but also Sans' workshop. Not only that, but Sans' workshop strongly hints at Sans in particular having come from somewhere, somewhere he can't return, something corroborated in the Sans fight when Sans explicitly, directly refers to "giving up trying to go back a long time ago, and getting to the surface doesn't really appeal anymore, either", meaning 'going back' and 'going to the surface' are DIFFERENT THINGS.

Circling back to Sans' workshop, there are two different states the workshop can be in. If you go to it normally, it references a photo album of Sans with 'a lot of people you don't recognize', 'looking happy', him having some sort of badge, and blueprints written in 'symbols' / 'maybe ... [bad] handwriting', for a 'strange machine', which may be the 'strange machine' that's behind the curtain and broken.

However, if you get the 'clam girl' FUN event, which seems to have been directly foreshadowing Deltarune (referring to the clam girl's neighbor's daughter 'Suzy', and whose dialogue is different in the Switch version to directly acknowledge Deltarune Ch.1's impending release), the photo album text changes to mention a card sticking out of the back flap of the photo album, with 'a poorly drawn picture of three smiling people', with the message 'don't forget' written on it.

This is EXPLICIT in that it almost HAS to be referencing Kris, Susie, and one other person (Ralsei? Noelle?), and explicitly referencing Don't Forget, the credits theme from Deltarune and the closest thing pre-Chapter 3/4 that the game has to a theme.

This means that the Sans in Undertale has some integral tie in his past to the members of the Fun Gang (FUN gang...?) and the events of Deltarune.

Meanwhile, there are some pretty strong implications that Gaster post-Undertale is the one instrumenting the events of Deltarune. The Gaster who was the Royal Scientist, who fell into the CORE. Almost certainly the one who worked with Sans. Because this Gaster seems to have power beyond that of just a font skeleton. The game seems to very explicitly reference Gaster's Entry 17, the save and load screen in the Chapter 1/2 demo in its initial green-on-black state has Gaster explicitly referencing the save files as if they are instances of the Hometown universe being created and destroyed at your whim, this is a Gaster with some level of control over reality.

This puts us in a scenario where, if we are to assume that a Hometown Gaster exists, and came to the Underground with Sans and Papyrus, Sans' future is Gaster's past. Meaning that if the events of Deltarune play out 'wrong', the events of Undertale never happen, which call if not the existence of Deltarune, at least the existence of the game client into jeopardy. Because the game client is diegetic, something provided to us by Gaster to establish our connection to the world. And if Deltarune plays out wrong, Gaster will not be in a position to supply us with that connection.

With the explicit ties between Noelle and Gaster (Noelle's seeming ability per the Spamton Sweepstakes ARGs to find game glitches drawn to her, the explicit references to Gaster's theme in Girl Next Door and Lost Girl), the evidence that Dess has some relation to the Dark Worlds (the baseball-shaped moon, the 'DECEMBER' buttons in that one portion of Chapter 2), Noelle being EXPLICITLY CALLED 'ANGEL' BY SPAMTON DURING THE WEIRD ROUTE.

The Weird Route is you the Player seizing control of Gaster's narrative by SEIZING CONTROL OF THE ANGEL. Leading directly to a time paradox that undoes all of UTDR.

May I remind you that in Undertale, the game supports cloud saves on Steam, not for your save file, but ONLY for the Genocide flag, so tainted Pacifist follows you through EVERY INSTALL OF THE GAME, even when your save file is gone. Diegetically, you can never escape the taint of Chara.

And may I remind you that in Deltarune, your choices follow you across save files, since the game will give you Shadow Crystals if you have defeated the secret bosses on ANY save file.

Undertale is a game where the existence of the player is diegetic.

Deltarune is a game where the existence of the game client itself is diegetic.

Toby's up to some fucking bullshit.

See you in four days.

[abandoned-quiche]

just had a thought about the deltarune timeloop theory. not a particularly game-changing one, just a thought.

doctor gaster is a scientist. in science, you must repeat an experiment over and over again to find where the deviations lie.

if he wanted to save deltarune, he wouldn't just try to do so using the information he got from a sample size of one. he would repeat the experiment over and over until he could say for certain what exactly was going wrong. then, using this information, he would perform a new experiment by introducing a new variable and comparing what happens to the old future.

so that might be why it's a time loop if the time loop theory is true.

[witlesswitnesstm]

Hello hello hello hello, I’m finally early and invested enough in a Toby Fox game to start crafting theories, like all the other theorists before me (rip Matpat/j) so I have some thoughts about chapter 4, spoilers for Deltarune 3+4

Some disclaimers: I’m not an expert, I haven’t seen all the secrets from chap 3, and I don’t know the lore of Undertale so, major grain of salt

In the chapter 4 egg scene, in the “Art room”(?) Kris tries to draw the egg man but fails every time, over time their movements become smoother, more precise. I feel like this gives some evidence for the time loop theory.

But I have something extra. What if the reason Kris doesn’t like the soul, even if we’re nice throughout the whole game, is because they can see all outcomes of the player’s possible choices? Like, they can see every iteration where we kill everyone or choose all the rude options, or even, do the snowgrave route. They know we’re capable of it and can turn on a dime, but they don’t know the specifics or the full picture because they’ve done this so many times. It’s all stacked on top of each other.

Side note, chapter 3 egg finding is so interesting. This man is a lot more relevant than I thought he’d be. The only place he can speak is the forgotten island? My girlfriend suggests that he’s trying to get Kris to remember a specific event from their past by giving the egg, which makes sense.

Maybe even the text is “not too important, not too unimportant” because they subconsciously know the egg’s significance, but can’t remember why it’s important.

I don’t know who the egg man could be. I don’t know what he’s trying to get Kris to remember. But if someone has any suggestions, lmk

Side note: the forgotten man mentions how the dinosaurs died out but then corrects himself saying that dinosaurs still exist (most likely referring to certain monsters, or just Susie) and this got me thinking about the existence of Christmas in Deltarune. It makes no sense right? It’s a holiday that comes from the birth of Jesus. The Deltarune religion is totally different. Makes me wonder if the Deltarune world somehow got superimposed on our world, and now they live with that

[sajdd]

I think my genuine ultimate deltarune theory™ is that at the end of the prophecy Ralsei goes back in time and this is a time loop that has been going on for a while. I just got that hunch about it

im ngl i think that would suck bc 1. it wouldnt make sense why hes surprised by anything that happens in the game 2. it would undo any of our progress in the world if he goes BACK TO THE START at the end. if this is somehow how it ended the time loop then Maybe but ima keep it real i just do not see this working at all

also toby has mentioned the ending of the game multiple times so its going to be something super meaningful and impactful for sure - so he wouldnt just undo that with a time loop

[therustedcat]

my personal theory about the soul and the prophecy + extra yapping

The role of the Soul in Deltarune is very interesting, but I think the fandom has a very black and white view of its (our) role in the narrative. Sure, it's capable of evil, but I don't think that was ever supposed to be the point, or even the reason Kris treats it the way they do. Like a tool, almost, for sealing fountains and even killing a titan, but something that must be prevented from understanding what is going on. Why would that be? I think Chapter 4 reveals this almost in its entirety. The first hero is a 'cage'. Not a 'puppet' or a 'vessel', but a 'cage'. Kris dislikes the soul being in control and directing their actions, but they keep it around despite not seeming to need the soul to move and act like normal. They even take it out to sleep, which implies that they could keep it out for far longer than we see them do it in game. They're even capable of defying what the soul wants them to do, no matter how much it pushes. The sequence in Noelle's house is, I think, meant to show that we are not and have never truly been in control. Outside of Kris's body, the Soul is utterly helpless and can do nothing. Your only means of resistance is hiding or trying to alert Susie and Noelle so they can do something. Deltarune seems to be asking "what if it was the PLAYER who had no agency in a videogame, rather than the characters?" and the normal route is an exploration of that hypothetical. So what about the prophecy? Why does Kris use THIS soul, rather than their own? Susie mentions the Soul for the first time after her and Kris defeat the Titan. Then she runs off, reads the prophecy's outcome, and shatters it. What did she see that would make her so viscerally upset? What would make her specifically say to Ralsei "YOU would never let that happen?" Is it possible that the reason Ralsei is always so unfailingly kind to Kris, even when they do the same things Susie does in chapter one, because of his foreknowledge? The way he acts, the way he praises them even for small things, are all comforting actions, aren't they? Like you'd do for someone whose days are numbered. It's possible that the ultimate tragedy of the prophecy is that Kris, bearing a human soul, is meant to sacrifice it to save the world with its power. But now, alongside the Knight, Kris seems to be trying to subvert the prophecy. What if that is the reason they are keeping you around - but also in the dark? To fulfill the prophecy in their place? Maybe that's why they indulge you to a certain extent, even when it confuses them or goes against their wishes (like opening the door in church at the end of chapter 4 or stopping you from being cruel to Ralsei).

Snowgrave is, I think, one of those things that throws this for a loop. But not by much. How are you 'supposed' to find out about Snowgrave? In chapter three. The S-rank door hints at how to find the forbidden path. And you can only proceed down it by going back to chapter two. But, generally, most people would keep that info for later, after they've finished the game. Deltarune is episodic, but the fact that chapter three tells you how to discover Snowgrave despite the entire internet knowing at this point I think shows the original intention of how the story was told. You would play through the game 'normally', maybe one more time to get what you might have missed (superbosses, side conversations) and in doing so you might also find Snowgrave. A potential way to avert YOUR fate at the end of the normal route. But this time around, Kris isn't your 'cage' anymore. You're stronger on the forbidden path. You can do things you simply can't on the normal route. You can force Noelle to bypass the puzzles. You can make her cast a spell she 'doesn't know' and kill her friend. Kris cannot disobey you even when they have previously. You can FORCE your way back into their body, against their will, and make them do what you want. I think the trash can beatdown in chapter 4's Snowgrave scene isn't just anger. It's also fear, because, even though you have controlled them before, you shouldn't be able to do what you have done in the weird route. Ripping the soul out is Kris's way of regaining control completely, and you showed them that even THAT isn't a guarantee anymore; that you can return whenever you want.

Perhaps it's easier to treat the world of Deltarune and its characters so callously here because, unlike Undertale, you aren't pursuing the forbidden path out of mere curiosity. The Soul is meant to be a sacrifice. Coming back and pursuing the weird route is almost... revenge. So it doesn't matter how cruel you are, does it? (also Ralsei is sooooooooooooo trans fem it's insane but i needmore screencaps to make that post)

[star-rust]

My Thoughts On Deltarune Chapters 3 & 4

First of all - whew...what a masterpiece. Every time I think that Toby couldn't outdo himself, he goes and proves me so wrong I feel like I need to grovel...

This will contain spoilers - but I won't go into super detail, just things that I noticed/enjoyed/made me cry (thanks Toby...). I'm mainly doing this for myself to collect most of my thoughts, but maybe you guys who've finished can relate to these as well! I'll go chapter by chapter just to keep it a little organized. I'll put everything under the cut so people can scroll past it easily!

Chapter 3: Kill Your TV? More Like F-

With how chapter 2 ended with Kris creating a new dark world, I was so excited to load up the game and get right into it. Side note, I play on the switch, but does any other console/PC have the cute little dog loading screen when loading a chapter? It's the cutest thing ever ;u;

I was just minding my own business, walking around a strange stage area and then TENNA SHOWED UP and holy shit, the graphics are phenomenal! I know it takes a lot to program/design those kinds of things, and Toby has done optical illusions like that before (the Jevil fight being 2-D) but damn! The style also made me incredibly nostalgic for a game I used to play a ton as a kid - Urbz: Sims in the City (if you know, you know). I had a smile on my face for the entire rest of the chapter (besides from the very depressing beginning and ending) but Tenna stole my heart - possible competition with Papyrus??? (jk)(maybe)

Speaking of Papyrus...

WHERE IS HE TOBY???? HUH????

Ahem...anyways...

There was a brief moment where I got so lost I kept looping around the same room, the Quiz room, and it gave me a headache :( I eventually got to a room with a console...which by the way, I actually reloaded my save because I straight up thought that I was accidentally doing the weird route LMAO I didn't get S-rank for the first round, mainly because that cooking mini game kicked my ass hard the first time I did it...I'm not the best at video games...

The Tenna fight was by far one of my favorite boss battles yet - it reminded me of the Zant battle in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess when you fought Zant through the different dungeons/areas you'd done previously in a mesh-mash style. It was a pretty easy one, though.

Seeing the Knight AND fighting (or attempting to) this early was a bit surprising to me, but not an unwelcome one. I know what everyone is thinking, but I honestly think the design is meant to purposefully mislead us - I love seeing everyone's theories, but I think the Knight is either a character we have yet to meet...or one that we know but haven't seen yet (still holding out on the Papyrus is the Knight theory). After getting my ass kicked instantly, seeing Undyne made me cheer and then immediately panic because WHAT! AND THE SHELTER????? OPENING FOR KRIS????? AHHHH

Okay. I rate Chapter 3 a Tenna out of ten ;)

Chapter 4: Toby Tricks Me Into Going To Church And Liking It???

Another strong start, I loved Toriel doting on Kris like that - it was very sweet. I can tell Susie is really starting to come out of her shell more and be her true self, especially after Ralsei's speech of how they should make real friends...which oof - that hurt bad.

I didn't realize I would be jumping right into story by stopping by Noelle's house, but uh, oops? I'm sure I missed stuff in the town but I will make sure to look at it next time I play! But man, what the actual fuck was the whole sequence at Noelle's?! I was genuinely SO confused and shocked the entire time; but I really enjoyed Kris fighting us off with a hockey stick! Something to note: I am pretty sure I know what the code for the mayor is - especially since any other time the Holiday's have been involved, Christmas has been a significant motif. But it wouldn't let me enter a code :( So maybe I'm wrong.

Something I've also noticed with this part is the characterization people have of Carol, Noelle's mom and the Mayor. While yes, she is very cold and rude to Susie, but think about it this way - how would you feel if you saw a stranger messing with your missing (and possibly presumed dead) daughter's guitar? There is a very clear reason why Dess' room is left virtually untouched while the rest of the house is pristine. The thing I love most about Toby's writing is how he has such developed characters, even ones that you only see once or twice.

It was suspicious that she showed up unexpectedly after Kris had the call with the mystery person, but Asgore ALSO showed up...so who knows? I do think she has a larger role to play, but the interaction between her and Asgore kind of proves that there aren't any hard feeling between them, so now I'm not sure why Asgore is no longer on the police force...

Now, let's get onto the actual dark world.

Chapter 4 has the best soundtrack - hands down. When the choir part started? I stopped and just listened for a while; I am definitely playing the new tracks on repeat for a while. The stained glass was also gorgeous - it reminded me of the judgement hall in Undertale!

The Jack fight was a lot of fun, but it scared the hell out of me the first time I heard the 'YOUR TAKING TOO LONG'. Fun fact that I learned, you actually can take your time, he only says that once you get to a certain part of the map! I had to redo that fight a few times before I got the hang of it - it's my favorite mini boss fight.

Seeing Gerson was honestly a complete surprise - but now knowing that the dead can be in dark worlds under special circumstances....oh that could lead to some interesting implications. Which leads me to another question - if monsters in the light world can bleed, why was Kris so afraid of dust? I'm assuming 'dust' in the light world is simply being cremated, but still. We know for a fact that Susie does bleed (and so does Sans...), but maybe there are special circumstances where monsters instantly dust? Hm.

Susie opening a dark world in the same place and essentially proving the alternate world theory was fantastic - I'm still 1000% sure that the world of Undertale IS a dark world, but we will see as the game progresses. Both Susie and Ralsei had a lot of development this chapter, and it was so refreshing yet heartbreaking to see. The glass showing the prophecy really got me thinking...what possibly is the end? With the way Susie spoke and Ralsei's fear, I have a feeling it's either sacrifice of Ralsei, all three heroes, or the dark worlds are forever sealed, never to be created again. Just like before, I think it's just one of those things we have to wait and see.

Now, the titan. OH THE TITAN.

Maybe this could help other people, but after like, a million deaths, I found out a very good strategy. If you find yourself dying a lot like I did, the best strategy is to spam brighten, and DO NOT MOVE MUCH. The little shadow things will come to you regardless, so move as little as possible to prevent damage. Seriously, this saved me so much that there were turns where I took no damage at all! The fingers are a little more annoying - but manageable. I have no advice for climbing the titan, that shit sucked ;n;

The titan's design was SO BEAUTIFUL! It's been heavily implied that the save points that only WE can see (not Kris, US) would have something to do with the prophecy and such, but man, I love seeing Toby, Temmie and everyone on the team working so hard to give us such stunning visuals.

ALSO, GET DUNKED ON???!!! SHE SAID THE THING! THE THING! OH MY GOD

Chapter 4 felt so long yet so quick - I really didn't want it to end! The somber walk back to Kris' house made my heart so heavy, seeing Susie so defeated was awful...

And then, the scene with a drunk Toriel and Sans. Literally the best.

Though, I couldn't help but think how weird it was to see him so energetic, and then I remembered the idea that this is him before losing all of the people he loves...augh. The, uh, implied bits while Kris was trying to sleep was so fucking funny - though the third voice was kind of odd? Maybe I'm misremembering it, but it didn't sound like Susie's voice...I will rewatch/replay to double check.

Chapter 4 was a 100000/10 - seriously so good.

My final thoughts:

I had such a fantastic time playing these chapters - it was nice to see familiar and new characters, and Toby continues to put out bangers as always. If you are somehow reading this and haven't played these chapters/or played Deltarune at all - please, do yourself a favor and at least play the demo - it is free after all!

Thank you for anyone that listens to my rambling! I will have another post with my biggest theory as well.

[nachee-fox]

Hey yall nachee here. Here are my thoughts before I go into deltarune chapters 3 and 4 I know I'm kinda late to the function with this but here we go.

-one I do like thr multiple knights theory and also the Kris is the knight theory. Because I like to think gerison made the main dark fountain in the classroom but I'd like to think that Kris has been making all these fountains atleast the chapters 2 and 3 kinda make sense to me. It doesn't make sense to me that they made chapter 1s fountain so I dont think they made the first one.

-second I don't think that Kris likes Ralsie nor Noelle or that the reason for the tea scores being so low reflect that Kris feels guilty from know what happened to dess and that Ralsie looks to much like their brother and they just feel weird about their brother leaving them for college. I'm not entirely sure though

- Kris liking Susie in a romantic sense does kinda make sense to me but I would like them to just stay best friends.

-who's gonna be the secret boss of chapter 3 I really want it to be woody [aka mike] but I think I've heard that was not the case and it'll be the comics I think if I remember or this is just a throw away but the freaking unused ice-es i think pizza scented deodorant would be really funny to me.

- the player being the angle. I think that ones just a given.

- gaster being the egg man. I'm like 90% is true but 10% is that it's just a red herring. Or it's just a fraction of gaster

- oh and one last thing I think that both sans and papyrus are both from the undertale universe. I was watching a video called "how to kill a time traveler" by sock muppet and I feel like papyrus and sans got stuck in a timeloop both remember what they went through, some how escaped it and ended up in deltarune sans got killed way less then papyrus and we already know that he can hide his emotions well so thats why he's able to interact with everyone and papyrus could not handle being the martyr for so long and decided to hide away for a little bit. Or if this timeline sans came from no time loop happened and sans some how just deltarune then in that case sans would be the only one from undertale.

But yeah those are just my thoughts before I go into the game in about three hours if this post gets attention then I might post my thoughts on them when I finish [honestly probably will do it anyway.] Most of these will probably not be true but I'm excited to see what me and the deltarune community is right about!!

[eggbert9000-blog]

Penumbra Phantasm

I know this isn't exactly a game review like I usually do, but I just wanted to talk about this song that I have been obsessed with for some time now, and how it blew my mind.

Its called Penumbra Phantasm, and it was created by Toby Fox for when he was working on Homestuck, which admittedly, I have not read yet, but im planning to now after this whole thing happened.

The way I heard about the song was probably like most fandom brainrotted people like me, through Undertale/Deltarune fan content. For quite some time now people have theorized that Penumbra Phantasm might have a big motific role in Deltarune. This is because, despite its motif being in many songs, it was never fully used in Homestuck. Supposedly Toby was never satisfied with the song enough to release it, so it never did. So then people theorize that Toby will finish it for Deltarune.

At first I didn't think much of the theory, it would be cool for sure but it didn't strike out to me as particularly important.

However, just recently I started to listen to a lot of fansongs for hypothetical future Deltarune chapters on YouTube and Soundcloud. Particularly ones featuring remixes of some of Toby's old homestuck soundtracks, or just music he has created in general, things like Nightmare Knight, Saviour of the Waking World, and most importantly, Penumbra Phantasm.

There was one particular remix of Penumbra Phantasm that I really enjoyed, it was created by a channel called surreal, who creates really great Deltarune inspired songs, go check them out. Anyways, I fell in love with the composition and had it on loop for a lot of the time. (This particular remix by surreal is what I think is the best Deltarune fansong that currently exists, it's that good).

And then later I discovered the piano demo that was in the Homestuck Soundtest. And similarly, I listened to that on repeat for a long time. It sounds very melancholic, but desperate, like its a song representing the end of something grand. Sorry if that seems cheesy but thats how i feel, it gives me feelings I don't quite understand as someone who doesn't know to analyze music lol.

So thats where I stood for a bit, listening to the song considering it one of my favorite compositions, impressive for an unreleased song. However, what I did not expect is for me to fall down a rabbit hole that made me completely obsessed and 100% sure that it is going to show up in Deltarune. One day when I was on YouTube, I saw a video explaining that there was a hidden leitmotif inside the Undertale song "Hopes and Dreams", where they showcased a version of the song with no main melody, and when I heard it, my jaw dropped.

(This is the deconstruction by YT channel JamieCD, and here's the link. Listen at the 1:17 mark).

It's Penumbra Phantasm, clear as day. At first I was skeptical, I mean i've been an Undertale fan literally since the beginning, i've listened to Hopes and Dreams probably hundreds of times, this has got to be an elaborate joke. So I relistened to Hopes and Dreams again, got to the same point and...

It's there, I couldn't believe it. In case you can't hear it, try listening carefully in your right headphone, it's quiet, like he was trying to hide it. This motif has been hidden right under our nose.

And that's not even it, a more obvious excerpt that I admittedly realized much later that everyone else is that Penumbra Phantasm is also in Deltarune's "THE HOLY" and it is basically a direct excerpt at 0:20 and beyond.

Now I was fully invested in the theory that the song had to be used at some point in Deltarune, but the rabbithole descent went even further for me.

I started listening to all the unreleased instances of Penumbra Phantasm that people have found, including the one Toby did live and the unfinished midi version (although i'm not sure if that one is super official). And even the video of Toby singing the main melody of it at a convention (with a backing piano).

And then I discovered the Homestuck Volume 4 song "Doctor" created by the late Buzinkai. It is a shame she passed, she created what is now one of my favourite songs of all time. This song is the earliest appearance of a motif used in Penumbra Phantasm. This is a bit of sidetracking but, I just wanted to talk about Doctor for a bit, because I think this is one of my favourite songs on the internet, it gives me feelings I'm not really sure how to put into words, it feels very sombre, when I close my eyes, it's like it transports me to another world, it has genuinely helped me sleep sometimes. Please give it a listen. This song has actually gotten me into listening to a lot of other Homestuck songs too, its genuinley some really great music so I am really considering reading it one day, it just seems like a webcomic ill love.

There are also the actual times that Toby has alluded to or mentioned Penumbra Phantasm.

Seeming when asked about Penumbra Phantasm on tumblr, he said this:

It's a very cryptic message, but I have seen some compare this to the plot of Deltarune, which makes sense. The legend in the game has very similar wording like with the line "AT WORLDS EDGE, and BANISH THE ANGELS HEAVEN" in it, and this feels like it would fit in with the themes of Deltarune. This isn't even mentioning Toby Fox's first ever tweet on Twitter.

(Sourced from @dailytobytrivia on twitter)

This is clearly a reference to Deltarune, where the themes of reality and escapism are abundant.

And for me the smoking gun was this, a little theory that came up in my head. Most people know that Toby came up with Deltarune before Undertale when he dreamt of an ending to a game, and since then it seems like he has been determined to finish it.

(not kidding about the dream thing)

He had this dream in 2011, which is coincidentally the same year he made that twitter post. And since then, he has associated Penumbra Phantasm with thematic elements from Deltarune, which makes me believe that at some point, Toby wanted to use this song in Deltarune, but ended up using it for Homestuck, composing motifs from Doctor in the song as well, but that would never happen as Penumbra Phantasm would be unreleased. But I believe that Toby still wanted to complete a version of Penumbra Phantasm that he could be proud of, so he started hiding the motifs in Undertale and Deltarune, awating the grand final release of the true Penumbra Phantasm in Deltarune.

This almost makes it feel like the song is Toby's magnum opus, working on it for years, trying to use it and be satisfied with a final product until its absolutely perfect, which I have to agree. The buildup for this song has been made for more than a decade across multiple different series of media, there's no way this isn't going to be Toby Fox's most important song.

Now I understand this theory might have some cracks in it, like a lot of it being here-say about Toby being "unsatisfied" with the song, which admittedly I have never seen concrete proof of outside of YouTube comments and Reddit posts, or the fact that I have yet to read Homestuck, so some of my logic might go against some release dates of songs and such. But there still is the smoking guns that are the Tweet and Tumblr post and the hidden motifs in UT/DR.

What blows my mind even further is that my theory, and my rabbit hole down the Penumbra Phantasm tunnel is not only just felt by me. I've seen a lot of posts about this exact finding spree, and seeing it all connect. Now I am among the people who 100% believe that Deltarune will contain Penumbra Phantasm in some form.

(There are already 2 videos talking about the connections between Penumbra Phantasm and Deltarune in some way, go check it out.)

These discoveries made me realize, Toby has been trying to make this song for years, Hes been putting the motifs of Doctor and Penumbra Phantasm in his songs for years, even in Undertale and Deltarune. And if that anecdote about Toby being unsatisfied with this song and this potentially being his magnum opus hes trying to release to perfection, I think I start to being to like it more as an artist.

I think most of us have ambitions and dreams we want to accomplish, if we set out a goal, we want to do the very best we can do. Art is funny though because that goal is never really exactly clear, we artists will always strive to create something better than the last, and when we try to make something perfect, we never end up being satisfied. My dream is to make a webcomic that my friends and peers will enjoy, but I've always wanted it to be the very best I can make it, something I can consider the best creation I have made in my life. But in the pursuit of being perfect, I have never been satisfied with it enough to consider it good enough to show. This struggle with perfectionism is kind of why I feel like I enjoy Penumbra Phantasm so much, waiting and wanting something for something that can live up to the expectations of others. I think we all need a little confidence to reach our hopes and dreams, and ill be waiting for whenever Penumbra Phantasm is finished, because Ill know it was the result of years of effort to make something that people will love, and that's something inspiring to hold on to.

[krispdreemurr]

okay so. time loop theory, we all know it, right. the events of deltarune have happened before but without the player's influence, but ended poorly, resulting in the timeline ending (and possibly kris dying before the end, leaving the bloodstain that didn't properly reset away and memories of Susie calling out to them)

and the shadow crystals. sometimes they see through to the real nature of things, like in the dark worlds, but other times they show weird things - a Kris that isn't there, a Susie that's wordlessly furious. things that didn't happen here, in this world, in this time.

and i just keep thinking about, like - the wreckage of a timeline breaking apart, the pieces of a world ending. a world where things had started to go wrong long before the end. a world that killed kris and maybe didn't help Susie properly.

a piece of another time and place that never was, twisting in your hand.

[lynxgriffin]

What are you exact problems with the timeloop theory? I think I read earlier that you were against it?

Yeah, I'm not fond of it for a couple of reasons:

There's just not much evidence to support it at all. It feels like it's people trying to interpret "your choices don't matter" and "only one ending" into some kind of narrative that makes sense for them, when I think there's much more nuance involved in those two ideas, and much better options for what those could mean than "time is repeating."

We already have a story about these characters being trapped in a time loop. It's called Undertale. And in UT, even before you get to your first ending, there's plenty of hints towards saving and loading actions putting the characters into a recursive loop: Toriel comments that you look like you've seen a ghost if you kill her and then reset, Flowey will also immediately comment on this, Asgore acknowledges killing you multiple times, etc. There are no indicators in DR of the same happening...if you go save/load and do things differently, there is no commentary on it. Ralsei freaks out if you don't do things the way he believes they should go, but that is not indicative of a loop that has happened previously, just that he believes in a preset way things should be going.

The point of even having a time loop in a story is that you're supposed to break the time loop, and what I often see with this theory is that your actual takeaway is that you cannot do that because "your choices don't matter." The characters are doomed to never actually change or grow or solve their problems, and you were foolish to ever bother caring about them or this story. I find this idea repugnant.

I know this might seem rather silly or insincere coming from a person currently drawing an AU that's very dark, scary and has all these horror elements, but I actually want and expect Deltarune to be a much kinder game than I think a lot of folks predict it will be. I tend to distrust any theories that go into ideas like "the characters will die" or "everyone is doomed" or "change was actually impossible all along."

[susielesbianism]

Every time I find myself on the verge of formulating a theory I get caught in an annoying feedback loop of “chill out it’s not that deep” and “this is deltarune!! an unfinished game with only two chapters released!! we literally don’t know if it’s that deep or not!!”

one day I really need to break out of it and start posting more of my thoughts here. Lmao

[very-uncorrect]

>>×DANGER×<<

If you think you might know me in real life then don't look at this blog or I swear to god I will reach through your screen, pull you inside and hold your head against the griddle, which will be embarrassing for you.

(/ref)

If this blog is found by archaeologists thousands of years in the future I just want to say I love you

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Pronouns.page

Tellonym (anonymous asks app that I find really really fun)

Some socials:

Discord: prettyuncorrect

Twitter: very_uncorrect

Bluesky: very-uncorrect

AO3: uncorrectly_correct

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List of my other blogs (that I actually use)

Fandom blogs:

@the-spooky-children (Spooky Month)

@sanders-sides-uncorrect-quotes (Sanders Sides)

@hes-as-stubborn-as-ever (Sanders Sides - Analogical blog)

@lost-signals-countdown (Oxenfree)

(used to have more listed here but. yeah I forgor to use them)

My own stuff:

@saraph-smidgens (inspired by Sanders Sides)

@uncorrect-writings (random creative writing stuff)

@strangest-polls (my poll blog)

@astrid-and-the-space-pirates (original story)

@cafe-gato-official (original story)

@minty-splitends (original surreal story)

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Music I like:

Mili

PinocchioP

Will Stetson

Sodikken

Melanie Martinez

scntfc

The Crane Wives

Jack Stauber

Good Kid

Miracle Musical

Cavetown

Inubakumori

MelodySheep

OR30

AU/RA

AJR

Anne-Marie

James Arthur

VOCALOID

Jazmin Bean

AURORA

EVE

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List of fandoms:

Sanders Sides

Spooky Month

Oxenfree

Moominvalley (Snufmin)

STH (unbreakable bond)

Sam & Max (Freelance Husbands)

Spiritfarer (most underrated game of all time play it play it PLAY IT!!!)

Fran Bow

Heathers

Little Misfortune

The Book Of Life

Camp Camp (RIP 🫡)

Kindergarten

Deltarune

TPOM

BuzzFeed Unsolved/Watcher

ENA

Class of '09 (Jeckole)

The Stanley Parable

Smiling Friends

Welcome to Hell (1 & 2) (Sockathan)

ARCANE

Taskmaster/WILTY/Cats Does Countdown/britcoms

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Some other things I like (aesthetics, YouTubers, things I do, etc):

Fun and silly mogai identities/xenogenders

The Group Chat

Low stake/funny conspiracy theories (the movie Frozen exists because Disney wanted something to cover up results for searches about Walt Disney's frozen head, JFK's head just did that, etc)

Cryptids

BJDs

Disturbing media and horror (Martyrs 2008, r/distressingmemes, r/nosleep, etc)

Creep Cast

Monster Energy

Doc Martens

Drinking 5 cans of Monster Energy at 3am and listening to music at full volume in my earphones until my head and eyes are sore

Penguinz0

Cinema Therapy

The colour blue (there is not a single bad shade)

Making OCs and stories that I get obsessed with for a week and then never touch again

Liminal space stuff

Wendigoon

Cats (the animal)

Dankpods

EAS scenarios

Goblincore

Matt Rose

Danny Gonzalez

Thinking way too deeply about death at 2am and scaring myself

Jacksfilms

Penguins

Gore art

My favourite characters suffering so so much

Steamed Hams edits

Heated/electric blankets

Pretty Much It

Making fun of rich people

Being really gay

RAZZLE

Time loops

Dark academia

Weirdcore/dreamcore

Cosmic horror

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Anti-AI banners

Berrisexual banner

Sapphic banner

Queer banner

Star divider(image)

Star divider(symbols)

Weirdcore and liminal space banners

[this-user-has-been-erased]

deltarune spoilers ahead...

I've gotten a pretty decent way into the Dark Sanctuary now (just finally got the climbing gear after like 5 attempts at jackenstein). WOW. WOW WOW WOW WOW this chapter has been incredible. This is by far the most BEAUTIFUL dark world yet, including the music which. Holy shit holy shit holy shit. The sanctuary music has to be an S-tier track from the whole game so far. I was pleasantly surprised to see Gerson Boom here (alas, no Oberon Smog). There were Lord of the Hammer books on the shelf in the church so it makes sense that Gerson-related things might be in the dark world, but why is Gerson himself there? Things that make you go hmmm....

The light world section, though...... oh my god... I do not have words to describe how FLOORED I was. The foreshadowing when they're all in the empty box room and Susie makes an among us joke, then Noelle asks why Kris is checking all the boxes...... only for Kris to go back by themself and SHOVE THE SOUL IN THERE. AND THEN THE SOUL IS THE IMPOSTER GOING IN THE VENTS. WHAT THE FUCK. WHAT THE FUCK TOBY FOX. WHAT WAS KRIS DOING IN THE KITCHEN? WERE THEY DRINKING ALCOHOL?

WAS THE KNIGHT TALKING TO THEM ON THE PHONE?

Not to mention the absolutely Unforgettable imagery of Kris, batting away the SOUL with Dess's hockey stick, hidden in Dess's closet while Noelle and Susie talk. I accidentally hit the guitar, but since the voice was telling Kris NOT to let Susie get the guitar, I'm wondering if it's possible to get back to Kris without making noise. Either way, that whole sequence was fucking AMAZING.

Another thing I noticed was that sometimes characters and phrases will be in yellow text or red text. (Also now that I think about it, at the church there was yellow juice and red juice... that you can mix... hmm...) I think that maybe the yellow text relates to the characters in the game, while the red text relates to the player. This would be especially weird because Carol Holiday tells Kris that "YOU are always welcome," and the YOU is all in red. Carol DEFINITELY has something shady going on.

On that note, Ralsei is also a little suspicious when you pass by the glass prophecy things in the Sanctuary. Susie questions it, and asks him why he doesn't just tell them the future, but he completely sidesteps the question and it really.. raises some red flags. I will never ever believe that Ralsei is evil or has bad intentions, but he is definitely hiding SOMETHING. This is good evidence for the time loop theory, honestly. but we'll see.

I have SOOOOO SO SO SO many thoughts swirling in my head, but I just want to write some stuff down here and document some of my observations. There is an entire lobe of my brain dedicated to deltarune lore, and there is SO MUCH TO UNPACK. And I'm 100% missing some stuff. I'm not going to play the weird route myself, but I just want to experience the normal story for myself at my own pace.