#fandom discourse didnt use to be this scary

[blackmageeljin]

I haven't posted in a long time.

My anxiety and depression have backslid a lot in the last year. My social anxiety and agoraphobia are particularly out of control.

I have fallen out of producing fandom content, frankly because I have been too afraid to. Fandoms have become a lot more charged than they were when I was younger. I keep trying to get into new fandoms that I hope are less problematic only to stumble across the same patterns, up to and including someone being harassed and told to 'kys' repeatedly over fandom drama to the point of ending their own life.

But being isolated is hard. I haven't stopped making content I just... Stopped sharing it. I don't really know what to do, or if any followers I have here are even still active. I got back into JoJo's and expected most of the discourse to be more 'gay vs not gay' type stuff but some parts are... Really, *really* bad. Worse even than KH. And inconsistent! Censoring myself to fit some fear mongering anti's agenda seems like an anathema, so I just haven't posted anything, even the stuff I have I know isn't problematic.

To me the 'right' thing to do would be to post anyway and stand up for a censorship free Internet and community, but I'm afraid that, especially right now, I just don't have the resilience.

I guess I'm asking people more in touch with a 2024 Tumblr what they think. If it's even worth it. What tools there are. I've spent half the day blocking hate in a tag and trying not to panic about it. As an actual abuse survivor, seeing some of these accusations fly over such inane things is just... Disheartening. Especially knowing my abusers will never be prosecuted, but I'm getting accused of those crimes by trying to cope through artistic expression.

Also if there is anyone interested in some of the 'problematic' ships I've tagged, please give me a ring. I might try finishing and posting some stuff after all of it will actually make people happy. But after seeing witch hunt posts calling for people to haze or blacklist certain crators? It's just... Really scary.

But I'm so tired of being alone.

[scarycranegame]

why are confession blogs not fun anymore

[barblaz-arts]

I know you've been making a lot of art of it lately, but out of curiosity, what's your opinion on Hazbin Hotel in general? I'm referring to both the show and the fandom here. Just curious.

God. What a loaded question. Are you ready? Bcuz I'm fresh from Vaggie discourse on twitter and I have a lot to say.

I think that Hazbin Hotel seems worse than it is for people who know the fandom but haven't actually watched the show. Honestly, I think it's a fine show. It isnt super incredible and I'm not gonna sing praises about how deep and thought provoking it is or whether it's an artistic masterpiece. It never tried to be that and was never advertised as such(to my knowledge) anyway. I just had a lot of fun. Like, yeh sure the cussing in the dialogue can be a bit much, especially in ep 1, but there are different writers in other episodes, so it gets better. It can be super crude yeh, but I grew up watching things like the Scary Movie franchise and other dumb american movies (yes, i was too young for them. yes, i still watched them), so it's pretty tolerable for me. It also helps that Charlie is the main character. That's one of the main reasons why I watch HH but dont watch HB. It's probably a fun show, but without a sweetheart like Charlie to balance things out, I'd just get tired of the sex jokes and mean jokes.

Compared to my last hyperfixation, I think I have more things to love about Hazbin Hotel, believe it or not. With Netflix's Wednesday, I had already been an Addams Family fan for a while and hung on because I loved the family and eventually Enid and wenclair. The show itself was honestly meh... so far! I'll give season 2 another shot.

But with Hazbin Hotel, it catered to a lot of things I've always loved. Found family with a bunch of misfits? We didnt get to see it much bcuz of the fuckass 8-ep per season format we have nowadays, but its fine its there! The juxtaposition of a kind hearted woman in a harsh world? Love love Charlie for that, I watched the show in the first place because of her. A canon lesbian lover with a "fuck the world cuz my world is you" type of love for the protag? Fuck yes. How very Pearl-from-Steven-Universe of Vaggie. And the music? The music is soooo good. I didn't know the songwriter prior to watching, so I was nervous about the songs, but I knew most of the theater actors they cast(still cant believe Jeremy fucking Jordan is Lucifer) so I figured even if the songs are mid, at least the performances would be topnotch. And they were! But the songs were a pleasant surprise. Sam Haft did real damn well. I still listen to the soundtrack to this day.

The fandom, however, is probably the worst one I've been in. And I've been in a lot in my big age... Just... lacking media literacy, and based on the replies I get when I say something on twitter, it seems a lot of them lack reading comprehension and just plain emotional intelligence too.

There's a lot of criticisms about this show that I honestly think is fair. Pacing, character design, overuse of the F word, whatever. But in my opinion, claiming that Hazbin is a male-centered show is an unfair misconception that is mostly the fault of the fandom.

Bcuz, sure, the male characters are uber popular. Alastor, Vox, Lucifer, Angel Dust and the many web of ships they're involved in went trending every few business days. But come on now. How often does a fandom even have their main protag as the most talked about character? This has been going on for ages. Just because the boys have the most merch and fics and fanarts and thirsty fans doesn't mean that they had the spotlight for most of the show itself. It only meant that they were the ones the viewers paid attention to, in a fandom filled with people drooling over the next tumblr sexyman and toxic yaoi ship of the month.

But if you actually look back at what the show gave us so far, the boys didnt outshine the women. I actually think the women got to do more and be more as characters than the men did. Let's take a look at the male characters.

Alastor was not in all the episodes. In fact, he was MIA in two out of the eight episodes. In all the episodes he was in, he was a mere side character. His purpose in season one was to stir the pot and be the intriguing mystery that occasionally quips. But he was not the one whose deeper thoughts were explored and whose character and goals was challenged THROUGHOUT the show, merely alluded to at the VERY END of the season, which is hardly him taking the spotlight away from Charlie. If you merely looked at the fan content of him, you'd think he were a father figure to Charlie(or a love interest. whatever) and that he has developed a soft spot for the Hazbins deep down in that cannibal heart of his. But if you pay attention to the show, he never had even a meaningful one on one conversation with the Hazbins. The only time that happened is when (a)he threatened Husk's life (b)when he constantly mocked Charlie while she was down in the dumps and used this as an opportunity to manipulate her and (b)when he told Niffty watching the crew sure can "make one sentimental", even tho he had taken no prior opportunity to bond with them! There's no foundation for all the fandom's claims that he could be redeemed bcuz of a budding fondness for the group, but that's all you see of his fan content(aside from the horniness). I dont have any problem with his lack of an actual relationship with the Hazbins bcuz I believe redemption for him is not what the show is going for, but it's frustrating to see people interpreting it that way BUT not seeing how horridly developed it would be if that is the case, meanwhile they turn around and say that Vaggie and Chaggie as a ship "had terrible development".

Then we have the male Vees. Vox was only ever in episode two, and was essentially a youtube reactor in episode 8. He was in ep 4 but had no speaking lines. We only know of his obsession with Alastor and the toxic relationship he has with Val. Val, meanwhile, is merely shown as the sex obsessed fiend behind Hell's sex industry and Angel's abuse. They did what they needed to do with minimal screentime. It was fine, but that's IT. Despite what little CANON gave so far, you have hundreds of people writing essays and fics and fanarts about them being complicated characters. But to reiterate, this does not mean that they are bad characters or that they don't deserve the fame. But to say that these men are better written within canon than the women is such a bold statement when most of the depth they knew of these characters were lore drops given before the show and their own speculations as they dug into the shallow soil of what the show has so far.

I'm not gonna speak about Angel and Lucifer. Because I think they were characters who were legitimately well-explored so far.

Now onto the women. So many of them were given the opportunity to have their characters challenged or given the agency to push characters and the plot forward or give you intrigue about implications of what's to come for the characters and the plot. I've talked a lot about Charlie and Vaggie. So let me talk about the other, terribly underrated women of Hazbin.

Velvette and Carmilla were the ones who advanced the subplot in the war against Heaven. Because of Carmilla's love for her family despite being a demon, an angel was killed. It gave Heaven the excuse to escalate things, but it also gave Charlie hope later on in the season that they're not powerless. Carmilla was also the first demon shown to make selfless actions that is contrary to what is expected of demons, making it proof that Charlie's belief that demons deserve a second chance isn't unwarranted. She's an interesting character, as an overlord who hangs on to power but clearly has morals. But how often do you see people writing essays about her? Eating up the fact that she's a powerful overlord but would sacrifice anything for her daughters? If Carmilla were a man, hundreds of girlies would be drooling over the crime boss who has a soft spot for his daughters.

Meanwhile, Velvette got to demonstrate why exactly she's an Overlord despite being the youngest demon in there. She's calculating and observant. She gives off a haughty vibe and constantly boasts about how she's young and fresh, but she isn't naive. During that meeting, she paid attention to Carmilla and Zestial's relationship. In order to find out who killed the angel, she riled everyone up, and when she got the feeling it was Carmilla, she mocked Zestial so that Carmilla could slip up. By playing these Overlords who are older and more experienced than her, Velvette showed what exactly her asset was to the Vees and why she's a threat, something that Vox and Val have yet to be given the opportunity to do when they were busy eye-fucking Alastor and literally fucking Angel. But in fan content about the Vees, Velvette is almost treated as an after thought to the boys...

Then we have the Seraphs. Not only were their designs gorgeous, their dynamic and presence as characters had impact to the plot and main characters.

Emily is a much needed character to show that this story isn't meant to tell you that Heaven = bad; Hell = good. There is good and bad in both, and it is so important for the protags to know that they have an ally in Emily who represents the true virtues that heaven is supposed to uphold. And I love the confrontation she had with Sera when her own view of what's right and good was challenged. We got to see the strength of her character and started the seeds of what could be heaven's acceptance of Charlie's goals.

Sera is such an interesting character to me. She was also important to show that not all angels were sadistic like Adam and Lute, but not in the same way Emily was. I have no idea so far which direction this show would go with her. But I'm intrigued by the fact that she seems to be driven by fear, unlike Adam and Lute's cruelty. She knew Lucifer and was there when he was cast out for his disobedience. Whether everything she's doing is to prevent that from happening again remains to be seen, and I'm looking forward to this kind of subplot for her.

And then Rosie! I really really look forward to seeing more from her. Spoilers aside, something I barely see people talk about is how interesting it is that Rosie is every bit the leader that Charlie hopes to be. Rosie is able to be a respected overlord in her own faction without needing to sacrifice her love for showmanship and music and her positive disposition. When we were officially introduced to her, they show how she seems to care about actually taking care of her people, not JUST ordering them around, by talking to them personally and giving advice. That's exactly what Charlie wanted to do for her people, isn't it? The hotel to Charlie was what the emporium was to Rosie. They have a lot of similarities that could set up for Rosie to be the one to teach Charlie in becoming a leader. Now whether that's a good thing or a bad thing remains to be seen, but it is rather compelling.

So yeah! With all that said, I really dont think this show ignores its women at all. Just because a bigger part of the fandom gravitated towards the men doesn't necessarily mean its a misogynistic show so far. But if certain people are claiming that the women are badly written, then I hope they also own up to the fact that their blorbos are just as shallowly presented within the show, maybe even more so. Which wouldn't even be a bad thing! Since when did a show or character have to be amazingly written for a person to like them? That's just no fun at all. All I'm saying is... Fuck this fandom's double standards, hiding behind claims that it's the writing's fault when the problem is they couldn't be bothered to think about the women.

[gomzdrawfr]

want to join the fandom cause it seems fun seeing fanarts and you and others interacting but I don't know how...and with the whole ai thing im scared...

my advice: just do it

really! sometimes all you really need is a leap of faith, and that was exactly how I dropped into the cod fandom. When I joined the ghoap discord server I talked to one of the artist I really like and respected from my lurking time (hi @bressynonym) aaaand the rest is history

I didnt know how to draw properly, nor digitally, all I did was scribbling on OneNote (yeah!) and rambled about cod characters, it is daunting and it is scary to interact but after a while? you may just be able to find someone to brainrot together with

start small, like commenting, reblogging, talking, chatting- doesn't have to be towards artist/writers, it could be the art/fic enjoyers!

you need to put yourself out there if you want something

as to if you want to start in the fandom as a creator, here's some more tips (which are all based on my experience, I am no pro at doing this, hell Im still learning myself, and I am by no means speaking these on behalf on others!)

establish a goal: what are you making? fandom based? original creations?

as with starting new, everything may take a while for stuff to happen, you'll feel like you're speaking to the void at times (esp with original arts, but do know that your stuff do get perceive by others as time goes, I would advise to draw fandom stuff as a beginning to get that boost going if you want! or else it's going to be quite hard to get things rolling)

imo this is hardest part of any new creator, you'll have to bear with it and try not to give up (but I understand how incredibly demotivating it could get, there were times when I stopped posting about Raven entirely, but eventually I post it anyway cuz surely someone out there will like them, it just takes a lot of patiences and perseverance)

btw, engagement can also vary from time to time, you may be booming for a bit, then suddenly you dont, it is a cycle that will bound to happen

take rest regularly, and I mean a break from social media because numbers, discourse and everything can get to you, very quickly (I cannot emphasise this enough)

the numbers are not worth it over your mental health (comes with practice to really solidify this thought)

study the algorithm (pain): see what other creators are doing to get where they are, what tags are they using in their post? what features/niche do people like?(this is, if you really want to grab some form of engagement, bcuz reminder in the end you are creating art for yourself first!)

example: I think posts would get more reach if you tag it with the ship name first, followed by the characters' name (doesn't work all the time tho)

that's the thing about algorithm, it is ever-changing, and you'll have to learn to adapt with it when it does!

expanding on that, studying algorithm could be about ships (for example, ghostsoap is most popular in the fandom), or really good rendered art/flashed out fic that leaves your jaw on the floor, or ships that gets lesser attention in general which puts you, who make content about them, easier to be brought into the light (like Faralex)

bUT, it can also be personality!

(again, not saying this is meant for everyone and strictly from my own experience + what I observe) for me, I made up the lack of my art by establishing a personality: a wild panda who yaps about price and their oc and also kinda everywhere in the place (just like this post LOL), OR you're the person who named themselves after Soap's ash particle number OR you're the one who likes bottom Ghost- literally anything goes, you want to make an impression in different ways, some more funny/goofier than others but it works (be mindful and stay respectful tho, dont wanna be the asshole in the fandom now do ya?)

efforts ≠ engagement (not all the time, but most time) and this is a fact. Sometimes, you can't expect a piece you did for 10+ hours to get thousands views and likes, especially in a fandom space. You need to understand algorithm is that wonky. (very disheartening, but again, you make the art for you and the few others who genuinely likes them, and those people can go a long way) be mentally prepared for such events, and try not to beat yourself up too much for it

ultimately tho, do it, do it scared but do it anyways and again, draw the things that bring you joy, I hope these could be helpful in some ways!

[the-fallen-collective]

ok so i expect to lose quite a few followers and possibly even get sent hate but i keep seeing stupid posts so i wanna speak on it because i can

shipping discourse is stupid

we dont really use labels like anti or proship, we just say neutral because we dont want to get dragged into that either way but we do lean a lot more one way

i just wanna say that theres nuance. Please guys i beg of yall to remember nuance.

“Fiction affects reality” is the same thing people claimed when saying violent video games caused violence, when they really didnt, but you cant say fiction doesnt affect reality because it can and it does, but not in the way people claim

fiction affects reality in the way theres propaganda (which… fandom is not typically propaganda) and people who are young and impressionable but it is not our job to cater to kids when little kids shouldnt be online in these spaces in the first place, and people who have delusions which while unable to control what triggers you and when something causes a delusion, it is up to that person to either step back or reach out for help if fiction is affecting their reality in a harmful way

its also just fiction. It is literally just fiction. I promise people having weird fucked up ships isnt going to do anything horrendously awful and scary when its literally just pixels and/or ink. Youre not traumatized from it, it can be a trigger but youre in charge of catering your own experience, but seeing that stuff just by itself is not traumatizing and if it disgusts you, just block and move on

“oh but its illegal” no its really not. Any art or writing or any depictions of anything that would be illegal irl would have to be about an identifiable real life person to be illegal but if its strictly just fiction then its not illegal, and again, block and move on if it disgusts you

i literally cannot care what someone does so long as they arent actively hurting anyone else (and no they arent grooming somone for having ships you disagree with and they arent purposely triggering people when thats not their intention and no they arent hurting any real person, and anyone i talk to who ships dark things is strictly against those things irl and would never condone these things irl). Fandom has always lived by ship and let ship and i still abide by that, if something bothers me at all i just block those tags/that person and move on and im fine, its not that hard

neither side of discourse (both shipping but also in any discourse ever) is a pure saint. Antis definitely harass people more and lots of them send death and rape threats and often make false accusations, but there are proshippers who harass others and send threats and ive seen some suicide bait too, theres groomers on both sides, theres abusive people on both sides, neither side seems to be able to apply much nuance

Honestly, some people online making dark things and most the time puttinf warnings on them and telling minors to dni arent going to turn our world into a utopia for offending pedophiles and zoophiles, i promise. If you dont like it, block and move on, and thats it

also no the terms havent changed meaning, an anti is someone who is against problematic media, proshippers are people who are anti harassment and anti censorship, comshippers are people who ship things like angel x demon and human x monster, darkshipper is people who ship problematic things, lightshippers are people ship non problematic things, these are not all hand in hand. It is peoples own fault for thinking pro means problematic instead of doing research and learning it always has and always will just be the suffix for ‘for’

We interact and are friends with people on all sides and honestly the misinformation and harassment is getting so fucking stupid i felt i wanted to make a post about it

[joshy-tomato]

Why every time I have someone being weird with me is a rp account

Honestly this is me just talking about things that happened either years or months ago. But first was that known weird dude in the rwby fandom that asked to rp and went full incel "why do women always reject me" that aparently was targeting teenager girls and I was a teenager at the time, so yeah, was kinda weird and scary having this dude get al personal with me when I told him I didnt do rp.

The second is was Lisa Minci rp account that called me a pedo just bcs I shipped something they didnt like in another fandom. But aparently it wasnt that important for them to warn others bcs I have not heard about that accusation again and it has been months. Like, the accusation is not what makes me mad, is the fact they called me something so horrid yet they didnt seemed to care I was allegedly dangerous to others, it feels so much like they used the term as a buzzword for ship discourse and is honestly disgusting. Anyway they freaking deactivated and I found out today bcs I really wanted to see if they have bluesky to block them there and yeah, I can't do that now.

Not too happy about that.

[sizzlingpatrolfox]

This sounds delusional but I don't think its crazy to think Jikook have a hot/cold relationship to presenting themselves as a pair on SM. If every time they post something to do with the other or have a publically affectionate moment in content that is highly scrutinized someone recieves violent hatred and backlash, its understandable they might pull back a bit. This isn't some Jikook version of a Tkk-are-hidden conspiracy. But common sense says a more than platonic relationship would be subject to occasional spikes in discretion and/or self censorship. The bold is balanced with the hazy. Lord knows what sorts of talks happen in private and what kind of deals may or may not exist with media outlets. The rise of western fandom and discourse in western spaces where lgbtq is publically discussed might also lead to changes in PR strategy. If, for example, dozens of 'Jikook live together' videos crop up with thousands of views and reasonable arguments, isn't that scary at some point?

The more Jungkook posts about Taehyung on his insta (which is also a PR tool), the more I think he has clearly deleneated 'work Jungkook' and 'private Jungkook'. He uses his online personality is a media tool. Those birthday posts are public performance. I don't think he didnt post about Jm because he doesn't care. And I don't think it was necessarily always like this with the caution. But people evolve and learn to protect themselves. We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes and what sort of acute stressors arise. These young men's friends and families have been harrassed as well.

The only time I have honestly noticed "spikes in discretion and/or self censorship" was after the Speak Yourself Tour Finale in Seoul on October 2019. November, December, after that and then January, February 2020 were seriously the only times I thought maybe they are finally settled in in their relationship and that's why things have changed and will keep changing, or maybe they just never were in a relationship. At that time, it was end of the year awards season, and then comeback and while watching them almost in real time everyday, I was more inclined to believe they never were in a relationship.

The other "spikes" are just periods of time when there's no content at all. We don't actually get content in real life time for most of the year, in fact I would say that at least in 2020 and 2021 there was in total like one month (and maybe even less) that we got real life content of their lives. The things we get to see in September actually happened in April or May, and maybe during April or May people were thinking there was some kind of "auto censorship" within jikook but the reality is that we just didn't have content.

As for social media (twitter, weverse, and now instagram), I don't think it's about on/off to presenting themselves. The thing is that we're just starting to actually see the consequences of Jimin not posting. It was always him the only one who pretty much constantly posted about him and JK and because that has changed, we're just painfully starting to notice it. I mean, when was the last year there was a new "jikook selfie" almost every two weeks? 2018, which was also the last year Jimin was that active on twitter. In 2019, even if Jimin had already stopped posting as much, we saw them almost everyday because they were on tour so selfies or photos weren't really needed to see them / perceive some sort of interaction between them. 2021, again... only two photos were posted by Jimin. 

There was no tour in 2020 and Jimin didn't use social media much and the couple of jikook photos were posted by Jimin. In their last break too it was Jimin who posted JK's pictures for his birthday and we knew that they were together. This time, he hasn't posted anything and I'm not sure he will. Then there's the fact that Jungkook has been active on instagram ever since it was opened and he hasn't posted anything about him or Jimin, so for some people it might add to that feeling that they are not spending time together at all. It certainly feels like that for me. "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" There might be sound but if you're not around to hear it, you won't know that there's sound. If you're not around to see the tree you won't know that it has fallen down.

So, no, I personally don't believe it's a matter of secrecy or self-censorship. I don't think it's that deep. Or maybe it is that deep and that’s why Jimin changed his social media habits. I have also considered a couple of reasons of why he might’ve changed that, and we could talk for hours about every possible reason for him to do so, but in the end what we do know is: Jimin doesn't really post about himself and other people anymore. The only "presence" Jikook had in social media, and the little they might still have, it has always been solely Jimin's doing, and because Jimin is not doing it anymore, then there’s no presence at all.