#antiship discourse

[champion-prism]

antis who are minors are seriously so terrifying. like you children should not be interacting with adults who create or engage in nsfw content, period. why are you inserting yourself in adult spaces just to tell adults to make those spaces child-safe? this would be completely redundant if you did what you were supposed to do and STAYED AWAY FROM ADULT SPACES. its like the internet equivalent of a thirteen year old forcing their way into a strip club and screaming "IM A MINOR AND THIS IS UNSAFE FOR ME AND SHOULD NOT EXIST" like smh why are YOU IN THIS SPACE????????

minors simply do not practice internet safety anymore! they put their ages online. they put their faces online. they put their names and a gazillion other identifying details online. and then a lot of them go out of their way to insert themselves into adult spaces. and engage in conversations with adults in said spaces.

like. do not do that.

[fandom-sillies-galore]

it's incredible how much discourse there is with proship and antiship stuff.

personally, i am proship and com/darkship because of a slew of reasons, but heres the main ones:

anyone should be able to ship/consume whatever media they want as long as it isnt hurting anyone in the process

anyone who is consuming that content for sexual gratification, but specifically if youre a paraphile and consuming that content, you should be no-contact. period.

i dont think its okay to harass people over what they ship or for just agreeing with proship ideals, no one should be harassed for what they believe, even if you think its stupid

people should be able to consume dark content because it can be very therapeutic to those who have experienced it, it can help heal them, and for those who it would trigger due to trauma or other related issues, i dont know any proshippers who dont tag properly and add TW's to everything

the whole debate on whether fiction effects reality is so important. fiction does effect reality for many, mostly those with certain mental illnesses, children, and those susceptible to manipulation, but for any adult who can critically think and analyze the content they are consuming, then they should be able to understand that its not real and doing those things in real life would have severe consequences and you shouldn't do them

this is a little unrelated, but antis who call proshippers pedos on no basis but the fact that theyre a proshipper are gross. you cannot just call someone a pedo without proof, and being a proshipper doesn't mean youre a pedo.

side note: @ me if you need help defending yourself to antis, i love arguing and i have a lot of free time in my future

harass me if you want, but if you're gonna do it on anon make sure you come off it and say what you want with your whole chest 🫶

[blotcourse]

"shipping problematic stuff doesnt make u oppressed"

ok sweet!!! can yall stop trying to find every way u can to deplatform us now????? can we finally draw and write in peace without being called predators and without being threatened with doxxing for liking problematic ships???? will yall finally realize that art is for pleasure and it doesnt have to reflect our moral values at all times??????????

[hurtthemgently]

If fictional depictions of a thing can influence your morality then you do not have a valid system of morality

[sunbreathingcoward]

It's a bit insane to me that when a proshipper draws a representation of antishippers, they are cutsie and just angry anime girls yet when antishippers draw them it looks like nazi shit

pic under the cut since not everyone wants to see all that

[themonstrousother]

I can dismante proship and antiship through one sentence; it’s really fucking stupid to discuss and analyse depiction and exploration of ‘darker’ themes through the lens of whether someone should want to see two fictional characters fuck or not, we aren’t fucking twelve

[the-fallen-collective]

ok so i expect to lose quite a few followers and possibly even get sent hate but i keep seeing stupid posts so i wanna speak on it because i can

shipping discourse is stupid

we dont really use labels like anti or proship, we just say neutral because we dont want to get dragged into that either way but we do lean a lot more one way

i just wanna say that theres nuance. Please guys i beg of yall to remember nuance.

“Fiction affects reality” is the same thing people claimed when saying violent video games caused violence, when they really didnt, but you cant say fiction doesnt affect reality because it can and it does, but not in the way people claim

fiction affects reality in the way theres propaganda (which… fandom is not typically propaganda) and people who are young and impressionable but it is not our job to cater to kids when little kids shouldnt be online in these spaces in the first place, and people who have delusions which while unable to control what triggers you and when something causes a delusion, it is up to that person to either step back or reach out for help if fiction is affecting their reality in a harmful way

its also just fiction. It is literally just fiction. I promise people having weird fucked up ships isnt going to do anything horrendously awful and scary when its literally just pixels and/or ink. Youre not traumatized from it, it can be a trigger but youre in charge of catering your own experience, but seeing that stuff just by itself is not traumatizing and if it disgusts you, just block and move on

“oh but its illegal” no its really not. Any art or writing or any depictions of anything that would be illegal irl would have to be about an identifiable real life person to be illegal but if its strictly just fiction then its not illegal, and again, block and move on if it disgusts you

i literally cannot care what someone does so long as they arent actively hurting anyone else (and no they arent grooming somone for having ships you disagree with and they arent purposely triggering people when thats not their intention and no they arent hurting any real person, and anyone i talk to who ships dark things is strictly against those things irl and would never condone these things irl). Fandom has always lived by ship and let ship and i still abide by that, if something bothers me at all i just block those tags/that person and move on and im fine, its not that hard

neither side of discourse (both shipping but also in any discourse ever) is a pure saint. Antis definitely harass people more and lots of them send death and rape threats and often make false accusations, but there are proshippers who harass others and send threats and ive seen some suicide bait too, theres groomers on both sides, theres abusive people on both sides, neither side seems to be able to apply much nuance

Honestly, some people online making dark things and most the time puttinf warnings on them and telling minors to dni arent going to turn our world into a utopia for offending pedophiles and zoophiles, i promise. If you dont like it, block and move on, and thats it

also no the terms havent changed meaning, an anti is someone who is against problematic media, proshippers are people who are anti harassment and anti censorship, comshippers are people who ship things like angel x demon and human x monster, darkshipper is people who ship problematic things, lightshippers are people ship non problematic things, these are not all hand in hand. It is peoples own fault for thinking pro means problematic instead of doing research and learning it always has and always will just be the suffix for ‘for’

We interact and are friends with people on all sides and honestly the misinformation and harassment is getting so fucking stupid i felt i wanted to make a post about it

[pennypurr]

Lowkey (NOT LOWKEY VERY HIGHKEY I MEAN THIS FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY SOUL) miss when fandom was just for the freaks and weirdos. "Oh, but people used to get bullied for liking things-" YEAH AND AT LEAST THEN IT WAS JUST AT SCHOOL, NOW IT'S ALSO IN THE FANDOM!! I've been in fandom spaces for eight years and trust me when I say it is NEVER that serious. Is this gatekeepy? Absolutely. Do I stand by this? HELL YEAH. New-Gen fandomers are so fucking annoying and the reason I had a block list of over 5000 people when I was still on Twitter. AND ANOTHER THING- what happened to block and move on? Ship and let ship? Minding your own fucking business?? As long as you tag your shit correctly I don't fucking care what you write/draw/cosplay. It could be the most vile thing to ever grace someone's screen and as long as it doesn't involve real people (and if it does you have their consent) I do not give a damn. Fandom etiquette has died and it pisses me off. I also heavily blame this on covid!! Fandom had already been on a decline, but lockdown brought the normies (yes I'm using that unironically idk what else to call them) into weirdo spaces and suddenly everything is morality policing and ship wars all over again. There is a REASON asian artists are constantly blocking westerners and it is because New-Gen people in fandom are annoying as hell and they aren't going to force themselves to tolerate it. It's also the New-Gens using things like generative AI to create things like artificial fanart and fanfic, completely disregarding how those things are so beautiful because they're made out of love and adoration for a piece of media. These are the people demanding new chapters and complaining about what fics are and aren't readily available to them. Make it yourself!! I understand the irritation, but that is what breeds creativity. Directing your energy to making something is not only better for the environment, but also your mental health. Also, yeah, your AI slop and the sheer amount you people are producing is worse and costs more energy than all the shit boomers did to mother Earth, and you're denying your impact just like they did. And don't even get me STARTED on people who intentionally seek out fanart/fic they KNOW has the potential to trigger them and then get upset at the CREATOR that they were triggered!! You literally did that to yourself. That's like getting upset when you break a boundary and the person whose boundary you broke follows through with the consequence. One of the worst parts about it is that as someone who has been in fan spaces for a long time is that the majority of these people are ones around my age and so it's difficult to find actually tolerable people to talk to. You'll also notice that the age demographics of the annoying new people in fandom and the fresh wave of mega-conservatives correlate a lot... It's almost like they're the same people. And even then the ones that identify as leftists are usually so far down that it circles back to fascism. Like what do you mean you think people should only be allowed to write/draw/engage with what aligns with your specific morals regardless as to if they're causing genuine harm or not? That sounds a little too familiar for my tastes- When did we get to a point where we decided censorship was good? It also NEVER works the way you want it to because sure at first it seems reasonable but then no one can agree on what is morally rephresenible enough to not be portrayed in a work of fiction and it just keeps getting worse, and worse, and worse, until suddenly queer people aren't allowed to be shown and social commentaries aren't allowed. Fandoms have been around since like- the eighties (probably before but I'm not looking that up atm), and this has never been such a major issue until now. The Internet has simultaneously been the best and worst thing to ever happen to fandom.

TLDR; Fandom etiquette has died and New-Gens are so fucking annoying.

[putrid-garbage-princess]

It's not like I'm trying into bootlicking proshippers here but the FUCK antis in tik tok community are THAT retarded???

A few years have had to pass from the appearance of this pee vs poop wars on social media for these smooth brains to understand that term "proship" itself isn't necessarily about liking necro pedo incest BUT a fcking belief about letting everyone ship what they want without any moral limits tied up to real life and it's not like they are on their way to,at least,understand who they're fighting with because I keep seeing posts about people spreading misinformation and telling everyone this bs like they're holding my hand.

Being a "proshipper" literally means being against lynching people for any vomitous shit they ship.You can be a proshipper AND ship the most normie-WLM-consensual-relationships-not-related-18+.You can be an antishipper AND ship some abusive shit,BUT drawing a line if there's a child involved,for example.

Terms "pro/antishipping" had appeared before every keyboard warrior I see online climbed out of their mother's vagina,when the Internet was filled with australopithecus who got their anus ripped seeing some basic yaoi/yuri.

Before stepping into any online discourse,PLEASE learn the basics of the topic you're going to prove right/wrong bcs you look and sound absolutely brain-dead :P

[weaselbeaselpants]

About fandom smexuality, aging-up, age gaps vs CSEM

The thing I wish people could understand is the debate over whether or not loli/shota/cub/drawn 'artwork' is inherently cp is a different debate than the fandom questions of:

" Is making a child character into an adult for *reasons* akin to irl grooming? "

" Is making a childincanon-now-adult-character date an always-was-adultincanon-character akin to irl grooming? "

" Is making absolutely everything into a sexy pinuplegalage adult good for me? "

" Can you write about these topics at all? "

" What is someone's mental age vs physical age when it comes to fantasy fiction involving shit like gods, monsters, shapeshifting talking animals having smex? "

" Is it wrong to dismiss a character's age when they otherwise don't act or look the age they're supposed to be +are treated as sexualized adult in canon? " ((kinda specific; I'm mostly thinking of Ariel and Jasmine being canonically 16 and 14 for some reason.))

All these above debates are worth talking about. And by talking about, I do mean having discourse over because it's unavoidable. No one is going to agree 100%, I think that's just the nature of sexualizing things or maybe just fiction in general. Something that may be tame to you can be triggering/traumatizing for another person -especially if that person is a survivor of any kind of ab*se. You are not responsible for their well-being, B U T, you ARE responsible for yourself and not being a dick to survivors. I also think it's such a 'your millage may vary';'depending on the situation in canon v fanon'-shit going on.

f.e. shipping the themepark young man version of the Mad Hatter with the adult woman Alice that walk around Disneyland and are their own characters apart from their animated counterparts but clearly are still meant to illicit those versions-- I can be sus and grossed out and designate it as one of my own notps all I want, same with Lydiajuice and Fluttercord. I DO find these ships genuinely 'icky' to me because I can't get over the association w the animated versions. BUT- knowing the context of what people are into it and how, I'm not going to call that shit amoral. It's not. I'm just allowed to dislike it. Cope.

Ultimately people are right that it's sus how we keep making underage characters into smexy adults to appeal to adults with sexual and/or shipping tastes. Like 'can we seriously not comprehend characters in a non sexual (or in fandom, non shiptastic) context EVER about anything?' is a genuine debate worth having.

People are also right that susbehavior can be excused with legitimate circumstances; like how coming of age stories inherently mean minors discussing sexuality because teens are sexually imbalanced and sex interested. There's a LOT of talk to be had there and shade to be delivered.

As an asexual who's dabled in, and has friends, who make and sell adult art for adults, I just don't see this problem[i.e. aging up minor characters into adults] as an inherent red flag.

Many honest nonpredatory people have adultified versions of their childhood crushes. There is a porno version of Alice in Wonderland where Alice was a sexually adventurous twenty-something getting down with other adults in furrsuits and singing. No really. Me in my new fangled respect for the og novel can be all "GAWD why do we have to make this sexy?" all I want -AND YET-- I'm also glad they made the porno version of the story for adults ABOUT adults. Good job. I'm sure lots of people looking for that thing loved it. Let cringe adults be cringe adults, damnit.

Sexuality and sexual preference (not orientation) IS messy and complicated even if you do all this by yourself and without a partner.

~End of part 1.

[blotcourse]

are antis stupid on purpose guys are they trolling pls tell me theyre /j

[theweirdestroller]

so basically, the proship vs antiship Drama boils down to proshippers saying fiction is fiction, and even if you ship something that would, in real life, be really fucked up, since it's just fiction, it doesn't really matter

whereas antis insist that shipping anything that would be fucked up in real life (minors/adults, incest, etc) then you support that thing in real life and you're a Bad Person (and you should die)

it's honestly not much deeper than that, despite that fact that i could probably go on about it forever. one side says 'fiction is fiction, and as long as you tag properly, do whatever' and the other is sending death threats and accusing people of being pedophiles because they shipped the wrong ship (<- the way antis throw around the word pedophile is infuriating)

(if it was not obvious, i'm firmly against antis, even if i don't consider myself proship)

i do kinda get where antis come from, at least when you just take their arguments in a vacuum, but i've personally seen too much vitriol to ever give an anti the benefit of the doubt. like. people have died because of anti harassment. there's so many horror stories, and it's Not pretty

uh, basically that's it! hope that helped explain it?

Thanks! This helps a lot. I would like to see the other side of the argument as well, just to get the full picture. But as it is, the other side doesn't sound all that pleasant.

I cannot condone threats and stuff, and over something as mundane as fiction characters? I'm honestly gonna try and avoid this whole thing where I can, but I'm terrified that it'll come up again when I can't avoid it.

[the-final-dance-of-justice]

It's a funny thing to follow both 'proshippers' and 'antis' because I genuinely do not care about whatever amount of drama goes on between those two terms.

I'm just here to have a good time lol

[drowning-lakes]

i have more to say because i still cant believe you people managed to create IDENTITY DISCOURSE FOR FANFICTION

it just pisses me off like i actively lose braincells each time i see people engage in this conversation like its not complete fucking bullshit. its fanfiction for fucks sake all of you need to grow up. why are people acting like they're the fucking messiah because of how they ship things. "my ships are all exclusively 21+ age above, same age canon ships!!!1!/"i only ship toxic problematic ships with chernobyl type tags" OH MY GOD DO YOU WANT A COOKIE??? A GOLD MEDAL!?? SHOULD WE INVITE BELLA HADID!??????

not to mention how ppl are literally calling in other ppl's jobs and whatnot. "they're weird online!1!!1" WHO CARES OH MY GOD WHO ACTUALLY GIVES A SHIT YOUR FUCKING FRIENDS ARE WEIRD, YOUR FAMILY IS WEIRD, YOUR TEACHERS, YOUR PROFESSORS AND COWORKERS ARE ALL FUCKING COVERT FREAKS!!!! GET OVER YOURSELF!!! "ppl shouldnt judge other ppl's ships!!1!1!" No you freak, peope can and WILL judge you but it shouldnt be normal for them to harrass you or make call out posts or whatever the fuck. But lets not kid ourselves if you write weird shit people wont like you and will think "THATS FUCKING WEIRD"

"there's minors here!!!1!1!" i promise you the minors are FINE. unless the fandom is fucking bluey or dora the explorer, they will survive!!!! most fanfiction authors do an amazing job of tagging and warning you what the fic is about, if a 16 y/o clicks on the dead dove smut fic its their fault at that point! this isnt victim blaming because as someone who was that 16 y/o i knew damn well what i was clicking on and i gave zero fucks!!! ppl act like teenagers have no clue about life and internet porn.

everyone on this awful ass site and tiktok acts so "holier than thou" as if in real life they're not the most annoying people possible. which includes me btw just to not get it twisted. but this entire discourse boils down to the simple saying MIND YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS!!!! BE REALISTIC!!!

[blorboification]

if you want an example of "misusing language" then take anti vaxxers, who you sound frighteningly similar to.

They took medical terminology they didn't understand, started a moral panic, used statements generated by that moral panic as proof their initial starting of the moral panic was justified, damaged the doctor-patient relationship of millions of total strangers, jeopardized the healthcare of those strangers who now believed their doctor to be incompetent for following accepted medical best practice, and fomented dangerous fringe political ideologies that coupled themselves to other conspiracies based on rejecting commonly-acknowledged practices.

"Vaccines cause autism! Narrative therapy that implements any form of controversial kink causes retraumatization of the writer, reader, or both, and starts the writer on an inescapable slippery slope to becoming an abuser themself!"

"It's better to be dead than autistic! It's better to suffer feelings of shame and/or isolation in silence than it is to use fiction to put a voice to your feelings!"

"Your child is vaccine-damaged from thimerosal and is getting sick from virus-shedding! Your fiction caused me to groom myself and you're a porn-addicted monster for not facing your trauma the proper way!"

"Your doctor doesn't know what's good for you, I do! Only I understand how your body/mind work and what treatment is appropriate for you! Your doctor has been manipulated by Big Pharma/kink supporters!"

"The empirical-study-informed best practices for pediatrics/psychology are what's wrong, not me, whose research is carefully informed by TikTok videos and Twitter posts carefully formulated to cause amygdala growth to keep me afraid so I will continue to engage with fear-mongering content that causes my politics to shift towards the alt-right, who coincidentally also push narratives based in fear, not in medicine! I am being perfectly logical here!"

You "antis" in general fundamentally reject empirical medicine just the way anti-vaxxers do. You just seem to get a free pass on it since it's "only" mental healthcare you are sabotaging, and few people acknowledge it as something as legitimate and lifesaving as other medical care.

Hi shoo! This is funnier considering that I got my information on fear exposure therapy from an established textbook and a class, which... a professor's job is to teach information as unbiased as possible with the current paradigm of a psychological issue, but some people have literally no problems about expressing certain iffy sections about certain subsections of psychology. Some parts of psychopathology come to mind.

The analogy feels like it's erroneous, no? The conspiracy theory is (was?) so widespread because it's been endorsed and approved by high-profile celebrities which help spread word of mouth while... yeah there's Anne Rice but there's a mixed set of opinions regarding RPF even among in groups: for a "I'm uncomfortable with RPF" there's wrestlers making jokes about people writing RPF.

Googling "narrative therapy" makes me think that you're misusing terminology again? It's not about turning a trauma into a fetish which is why there are a significant amount of people who don't do that. But I suspect therapists use fiction and make sure it doesn't lead to the sexualization of oneself. It probably moreso deals with the fact that the person committing the crimes usually don't get punished, whether legally or physically and it allows the person to roleplay an idealized world (i.e., the person reports it and the police responds accordingly and they get punished with a properly long sentence). The real definition deals with organizing your life as if it's a story. That last sentence is also insane because... yes. Absolutely. Reading about NSFW situations that you're not prepared to re-encounter can retraumatize you if you're not ready to do so. That's typically how triggers work. Obviously not the "becoming the abuser" part but.

The next points are Not What I'm Saying (and not what other people are saying). The accusation on the next point is "the person making the content is the groomer" which is. What a thing to say to me because my official stance on shipping is "I don't interact with people who ship that kind of stuff because of a personal discomfort". It's not even a "my ship is better!" standpoint because my personal approach to fandom is different because it deals with fixations of characters rather than the act of shipping in itself. That disagreement is why I don't interact with S.WERFs as a whole too, but again, writing that kind of fic is sometimes the wrong way to face trauma.

Skipping the "Your doctor has been manipulated by kink supporters" because I have NOT seen people claim that and I hope by that comment you realize how ridiculous that analogy is.

I do not use Tiktok and Twitter, try again. Also I do not ascribe to the label of "anti" and I think that's the reason you're like. Putting words into my mouth. You (and I) have seen how people fakeclaim trauma because they're proshippers and advocate for doxxing for them but honestly I do not advocate for that.

[mywitchcultblr]

Stop putting DNI on your tags and stop bringing shipping discourse into AO3

AO3 hid the story and asked OP to remove the tag (the fanfic is not even removed) due to the inflammatory tag. That's deserved. AO3 is not a social media for people to fight over ship and chronically online discourse. It's a library. If people keep bringing DNI and discourse into AO3 it'll make the place toxic for writers and reader.

What are you trying to accomplish with putting DNI? Do you think people actually care about DNI? No, it's just making you looking like an asshole doing this

Also AO3 was founded by a Wincest and Thorki shipper. Astolat made AO3 because FF net and other sites keep purging nsfw fanfic. AO3 is literally made for problematique shipper that op don't like.

Then OP doing this? For what? People want to enjoy reading their fanfic not seeing DNI and online discourse on AO3. I hate using the word virtue signaling as it's often used to demean progress but this is what a real virtue signaling looks like 🤦🤦‍♀️

(I bet op wrote more inflammatory tags on their fic other than 'proshitter DNI get a life' because it take a lot to get your story hidden or removed)