#first wot edit

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

I like that it seems like the show is going to develop first rand/aviendha and then presumably rand/elayne and then rand/min and make sure all three relationships get some development, and give min more early stuff to do in the plot that doesn’t revolve around rand.

[amemoryofwot]

The asylum specifically mentions patients of Logain’s calibre have either richer families or a special patron. Logain is a noble in his own right but is his special patron the Tower?

[sadhorsegirl]

sometimes you go to a high school production of the sound of music bc some of the kids in it are in the hebrew school your friend teaches at and then when you go to look up what restaurants are going to be open after the show in your everything closes at 8 town and you forget that you were working on the newest chapter of your wicked fanfiction on google docs and everyone sees the open doc before you can change tabs bc there are only three of you and you are all sitting close together in creaky high school auditorium chairs. and then you have to keep living 💚🩷🫶🫰

[phantasieandmirare]

Okay but if anyone’s heard ‘A Girl Like You’ from Paradise City, that song SCREAMS Moghedien’s intro sequence

[theinfinitescream]

Because I know I'm not the only one who thought about My Kink is Karma when we watched Lanfear kill Moiraine on repeat

[avelera]

Your rec has moved wheel of time to the top of my priority watchlist, but out of curiosity would you also recommend the books themselves? Consider this an excuse to ramble as much as you'd like btw ฅ⁠^⁠•⁠ﻌ⁠•⁠^⁠ฅ

HOOOO BOY THAT IS A COMPLICATED QUESTION

My answer is multifaceted. Take it as you will:

1) Wheel of Time was my first fandom. I adored the books. Ate slept and breathed them. It was the first fandom I was online for. They owned my SOUL.

2) BUT… the WOT book fandom I loved was all about the theory mongering. There’s so many CLUES in them and prophecies and hints hidden where only the most attentive will find them. It was so FUN to comb through every word with the community.

3) BUT now that they’re complete, the books don’t really have that experience anymore. Presumably you’ll binge them and unless you do so with a reading group you’re not going to pause between books and try to guess what happens next for weeks or months or years at a time they way we did

(The show is doing a great job putting just enough little twists in that even book readers get to theory monger again and it’s GREAT I bet it’s even great if you’re show-only too if not better!)

4) so basically it’s like asking if “Lost” is worth watching when it used to be this huge cultural phenomenon. I think the answer is “Yes for the story but it is long and the reason it was a phenomenon was all the theorizing the fans did. Just binging it isn’t the same experience that people had when they said they were obsessed.” I’m still excited to share the books with others but the EXPERIENCE isn’t the experience that obsessed me so if the books don’t land with someone I don’t really even try to defend them. It’s just a different sort of pleasure now and maybe the show is best for that.

Then throw in the fact that the author died before finishing them and the last few books are good but stylistically quite different as a result. The new author wraps stuff up a lot more quickly for obvious reasons. Most people loved that but I’m a weird duck who hated it lol because I loved being edged forever by WOT and I got offended when like 3 prophecies got resolved in one chapter when it used to take 3 books to get one resolution.

They’re also long as fuck so if you don’t like them by the end of Book 1 then don’t force it even if later books are great. Because book 1 is like 700 pages and so is each one after that if not longer so I can’t reasonably say “No man you gotta get to Book 4 to REALLY get what the series is about!”

I was hooked by Book 1, and I loved those books like they were life itself and the ending changing the pacing and style crushed me but I still read them because I loved all the characters and that world so so much. The show is doing so much needed edits to this huge sprawling work so ignore the haters who don’t like that it isn’t some impossible page by page adaptation they’re idiots this adaptation is phenomenal.

So, uh, tldr I loved them but they might not be for everyone and that’s fine?

Oh and if you’re reading them for the cute Siuan and Moiraine lesbian romance you don’t really need to read the whole series just read the prologue novella New Spring it’s all in there much more than it’s in the main books.

[squirrelwrangler]

so glad to read your takes on the finale - I got extremely into wheel of time THIS WEEK, especially moiraine and siuan, and though I've only just finished season 1 I got quite completely spoilered yesterday by upset fan reactions which really worried me about watching the rest. So I'm glad to read more positive takes which don't make me feel quite so much like this is a terrible alternative to a book storyline that I haven't read

You're welcome and I hope you still enjoy the series- Season Two and Three are leaps in quality (just as the books are to each other), as someone who loved Season One. I hope you continue to watch and enjoy. If not, that's okay, Anon.

The problem is that Wheel of Time Show isn't "the Moiraine and Siuan Show" and shouldn't be the only reason to watch or you'll have your heart broken. No more than the Books are "The Rand (and Mat and okay Perrin) Books", which is where a lot of the opposite energy of show hate is coming from (aka Bookcloaks aka fandom misogyny and racism rears its ugly head). Which, I am a poster child for "ignores the protagonist and falls in love the supporting cast and doomed dead backstory characters". It's why Wheel of Time is a favorite of mine. Almost nothing but side-characters.

And because the spoilery thing that got everyone upset yesterday is something I predicted would be changed for the show from before Season One even aired, I have braced myself for this storm for a few years. Even as it was a change that I knew from the beginning that I would be ... not only okay with but sort of rooting for, because of how the book story-line is. Which tells you how favorably to view this book storyline.

Also why I'd recommend New Spring for show-only fans of Moiriane and Siuan but will be hesitant about reccing the rest of the series. I don't like the prequel more than the main books, but it's the one that will give you those specific characters as (imperfect) queer rep. And is more indicative of the series' tone and strengths and structures than The Eye of the World. TEotW is a bit of a weird one and before RJ found his footing. It's why Season One is clearly not an adaptation of the first book but the show-runners looking at the whole series.

If the show was just an adaptation of the prequel, it could be the fishwives heroic fantasy tv show that a large section of fans wish it was. Because, honestly, we don't have that TV show yet. And/or those shows keep getting cancelled. And that is righteous rage.

Also- Moiraine and Siuan break up during New Spring. Amicably. And move onto male love interests. But I stress that WoT and RJ were "fair for their day/confused but has the right spirit/problematic and mileage may vary/If you drop this series because you bounce off of how women and queer rep is written I won't blame you". It's because while for me and others it was a progressive series, there are deep problems to which the show works to rectify. But that was one of the main show adaptation choices, to change that aspect of New Spring, even if it would lead to BYG backlash accusations because of choices that would have to make involving Moiraine or Siuan or both. Saying "So in this turn of the Wheel they stay together longer, they try to make the personal bond work and as show-runners we are making to choice to make Siuan and Moiraine undeniably queer". It's not the Turn of the Wheel where it's not bittersweet - but this time the glimmers of hope are there. Makes it hurt more. But proud, I guess. And thematically final book appropriate in a meta way.

Claiming that the book alternative would be a better storyline to what the show gives is, to me, a lie. Angers me. There's a wish-fulfillment alternative to what the show does that fans of Siuan/Moiraine want, yes. It's not what's in the books. It's not feasible for the show. There's an alternative version of the book plot-line that I edited in my head as I read it that still isn't really satisfying and doesn't have the relationship that so enriches the show version and would not work, would not appease fans. The show version looks like it'll become a version that will make me happy.

I'm a book fan, I read these as they were coming out as a teen, Wheel of Time is formative and dear to my heart - and it is so deeply flawed. And the show even in its missteps is just as loved in my heart.

[themoonstonechronicler]

Quick question about Wheel of Time

I've read the first 3 books. Debating about keeping going with the series after book 3. A lot of the suicidal thoughts in the different perspectives was just hard to read at the time and I have mixed feelings about Perin whole relationship with Faile (might be that i'm greyromantic but it just felt rushed towards the end of the book). I think the world is neat and I like the characters (Egwene and Nynave in particular), but there are some things that made me decide to not immediately buy book 4.

Anyway, I thought I remembered you saying months and months ago that the books were only okay. And I notice you quite enjoy the show. So, what's the difference between the two, feel wise? I mean, if the books are okay, what in your opinion makes you like the show?

oof, thats a hard one.

i think it boils down to character charisma and plot condensation

For character charisma, I just like a lot of the show characters better than the book characters. Faile in particular, I HATED her book version with a passion, but I love show Faile. It may have been some of the misogynistic tropes around book!Faile that made me dislike her, or maybe it was just how she acted to Perrin. Rand and Moiraine were also made more likable, mainly with the show toning down the kinda ooc decisions they made in the books, and depicting Rands madness better. I also thought they handled Lanfears whole femme fatale thing better. I liked the depth they gave some of the characters like Liandrin, I love the charisma they gave Rahvin and Moghedion, I love the way they handled Min.

Plot wise, the books are scattered as hell. I like their decision to make Rand go to the waste before tear, since the aiel showing up at tear felt kinda random in the books. I thought they foreshadowed all of the ta'veren power stuff really well, and though they made the "bubbles of evil" that happened in tear in the books fit nicely into Moiraine's and Lanfears characters. The books have a lot of frankly unneccessary scenes and whole plots that could have been rid of, and they picked and chose really well(like that time Nynaeve got kidnapped and drugged with Plant That Stops The One Power in book three, that plot didn't need to be there).

yeah overall I just thought the show was like a much needed edit for the books. Trimming it down, adjusting some of the plot/character points, with great casting and awesome costuming. (obligatory disclaimer: im not trying to diss the books, if you really like the wot books im glad for you. i enjoyed them while reading them, i just think they have some flaws that the show handled really well)

[stickyglitterwombat]

I never read the books past the Tower Coup, so I can't speak as to how good or bad Siuan's arc was past that.

What I will say, is that I am terribly disappointed to see a show that so far has treated its queer and poc characters so well kill off a black lesbian character who was one of the great political figures of this world. That would be reason enough to be upset, honestly. BUT SHE DOESN'T EVEN DIE THIS EARLY ON IN THE BOOKS! It gives kill your black characters first (Loial's death last week already felt too close to that), bury your gays, and lesbian rage fueled by the death of her lover, and it's not a good look.

That being said. Sophie Okonedo's acting was absolutely brilliant, and her last speech is one of the most powerful, poignant and badass I've seen on a TV Fantasy show. My God, her acting... She poured so much heart and love into this character.

So I will at least be glad that they gave Siuan's last moments the dignity and weight that they deserved.

Rosamund Pike's acting was also amazing in this episode, her grief and rage so palpable, especially because she plays a character who's usually so controlled and doesn't emote much.

BUT.

Yeah. It hurts. Because it's the kind of thing I've come to expect from other shows, but not WoT.

I've heard the showrunners say that they need to tighten the narrative, and that there will be some early deaths, which I suppose is a fair point on paper. But I hate that I am put in this position again, where I have to wonder at the bias the showrunners might have. The worst part? Sometimes not even conscious ones. Because it's the way queer, and especially, sapphic storylines have always been written and treated in media.

I just... Yeah. I've been burnt too many times before. I do get that with the stakes being so high, characters WILL die. I want to have faith in the showrunners, I really do. They've done a good job so far (when it comes to poc and queer representation), so I will be (very) cautiously hopeful for the future. And I will wait to see how they handle the fallout of Siuan's death in future seasons.

I hear that she was going to play a significant role in world events, and in other characters' arcs, so let's see how they handle these narrative threads too.

I'm still heartbroken.

Siuan and Moiraine were top tier representation. How often do we get to see older lesbians on tv, let alone in a Fantasy show, where they BOTH have their own arc, and where the acting is out of this world? And they made them a birracial couple too.

[EDIT]

I think I might have gaslighted myself a little bit, because, um... Whoa. Now I'm feeling it. The anger at the humiliation they put Siuan's character through before her big speech. It seems so... Disrespectful? Yes, the people she has in front of her would totally do something like that. But from a writing stand point? It felt like the writers were giving into sensationalism, being gruesome for the sake of being gruesome. And it... hurts even more.

[tanpopomugishu]

EDIT: I'm not feeling Aziraphale's tattoo & backstory anymore, so I'm removing it from the story. But I still love this art, so I'll leave it here 😁

C : Angel, I've been wondering. What's the story behind your tattoo? You always look so prim and proper, never would have guessed you have those massive tattoos hidden behind all those layers. Not that they don't suit you, mind you!!

A : Oh, I know, these tattoos are very cliché, right? Not much thoughts went into these, except that they look cool. I had these made when I was very young and stupid, not even 20 years old if I remembered right.

My parents and brother have hated me since they learned that I am gay, so staying at home for a long time was not a choice. I was constantly angry, hung out with the wrong crowd, and frequently got into big fights. The next thing I know, a youth gang has taken me in. As a form of initiation, they paid to have these tattoos done.

C : You were in a WOT!!

A : In a gang Crowley, do catch up with the story, my dear... They said I was one of the best fighters they had ever met, so I got special treatment.

They even gave me a moniker! A very embarrassing one too, now that I think about it..

C : What moniker ?

A : Uhhhh... promise you won't laugh?

C : Fingers crossed

A : It was "The Fallen Angel of Whickber Street."  Back then, I was lithe and feminine-looking, and combined with the angel wings tattoo, they said I looked like a crazed angel while fighting.

C : WAIT, THAT WAS YOU??? I saw the article that was written about you in the local paper!! The photo there kicked ass!! Even now, you are still pretty by the way..

A : Oh, you silver-tongued, wiley tempter!!

I think I still have the original photo used in that article, they sent it to me as a keepsake.

C : Oooooh!! Show me!!!

......

I promised @midnights-dragon that I would draw Crowley's tattoo with more details, and somehow ended up expanding this first responders AU even further!!

It's hilarious to imagine young Aziraphale as a gang member, fighting the opposition while looking like Miles Maitland. I'll definitely try to draw that scene 😂😂😂.

[darkkbluee]

I love all the character development we've been getting, I really do. The whole Siuane and Moiriane plot (which I always thought we needed more of in the books), Egwene and Elayne and Liandrin and Nynaeve (my favorite WoT female character!!!) and and and-!

But not at the cost of Rand's character 😭. Why are they building up Egwene at the cost of putting Rand in a negative light? Whyyyyyyy???

We knew from the beginning Egwene was never going to marry Rand. She had already decided to be a Wisdom at Edmond Field. Which meant no marriage for her. It was literally in the first part! In the first few episodes!

And then you get Rand telling Egwene he respects her for her choices (that is not *him* at any rate) and tries to get closure (which Egwene should have done herself! Immediately after she had accepted the Wisdom offer and passed initiation! Something that happens timeline wise pre-show start at that!)

How does Egwene respond? By casting doubt on Rands sanity. She literally asked "Have you finally gone mad?"

I know she is not referring to their breakup when she says this. But! The way it was filmed and shown! The way it was cut!

Makes Rand seem like a cheater. Which? What? How? Why?!!

Please someone fix the editing or something! Cut it better! Give us more flashbacks! Idk what but do something to clear Rands character please.

Build Egwene up as much as you want. But don't hide her flaws. And don't cut the scene in such a way that puts those flaws on Rand, the victim of heartbreak in this scene.

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

Hi, new to the WOT fandom here! What are the production issues from season 1 that you keep referring to? Thanks!

I'm so glad you're wotching!!!!!!

So when amazon commissioned the show, they originally slated the first season to be 10 episodes. After the team had written the entire season's scripts, Amazon pushed them to do rewrites on certain things and shortened the episode count to 8.

The first episode was supposed to be two episodes, probably ending episode 1 with the start of the trolloc attack and then episode 2 would be them choosing to leave the two rivers and emond's field (their hometown), and they had to shorten that to 1 episode, so the pacing in the first episode ends up really wacky and fast. I'm pretty sad about this because part of what makes the first book effective is the contrast between the sleepy pleasant small town life in emond's field and how that peace is destroyed when the plot intrudes. And I think the change made it harder for new fans to attach themselves to the main gang properly.

They also, after amazon's rewrite requests, changed Perrin's early plot significantly. Originally he was going to accidentally kill his blacksmith master, Master Luhan, and after the rewrites he was given a wife who isn't in the books who gets fridged immediately. I guess amazon thought people would only understand the emotional significance of killing a lover and not a mentor. I really didn't like that choice when I first watched it, but I do think now they're going to do something interesting with the aftermath of the dead wife stuff in Perrin's s3 arc.

The shortened episode count also impacts the pacing of the end of the first season, which also got crunched together a bit. The end of the season also had further problems because covid happened, and the last two episodes were interrupted and had to be filmed after a hiatus and with new covid protocols in place, so the characters can't touch during some key scenes at the end. They had to rewrite the scene where Nynaeve and Egwene almost burn out during the battle of Tarwin's Gap on the day of shooting, and I think the scene is less effective as a result.

Also, one of the main actors was unable to return after lockdowns for possibly covid related health reasons, Barney who played Mat, so that's why it was changed and edited so that he doesn't come into the Ways with them in episode 6, and they also had to rewrite the last two episodes to accomodate his absence and then recast Mat for s2.

As a result of all this, episode 1, 7, and 8 in season one are all a little rough around the edges and a lot of book fans, including me, didn't really like the first season when it was airing. I like it more now upon rewatch now that I can see all the stuff they did manage to set up really well for the long haul of the story, but the first season had a difficult reception when it aired, and I think a lot of people let that less than stellar first impression color their opinion of the show as a whole. Which is unfortunate, because almost all* television shows improve as seasons go on and the team behind the show gets into the groove with it, and this one definitely improves each season.

Season 2 was written with the knowledge that it would only be 8 episodes, and they didn't have any interruptions during filming, so it's significantly better in its pacing.

[beforebloodannotations]

What your fav books say about you pt 2 (apparently sci-fi edition):

Dune series: It was between this and 1984 in terms of being right at predicting the future, you chose to pick the long route. You've spent months defending the first movie from people. Rise of Endymion: You probably have a form of religious trauma or really loved His Dark Materials. Lucifers Hammer: You're a pessimist. Pern series: You are a conspiracy theorist /affectionate Mote in Gods Eye: I think you glorified the military for a while as a kid and are the most overwhelming sci-fi enthusiast to judgemental levels (no offence babes) Beowulfs Children: You like to think you are a rebellious teenage dirtbag. You are wrong. GoT: You can and will judge every single person who has only watched the show and I support you in that my love. WoT: You like mythology, and ren fairs and wish you were secretly related to Boudicca and could wield an axe. Riddlemaster: When you were a kid you were in love with fairytales. When you got older you read this. You are extremely whimsical. LoTR: Please don't take this the wrong way but you are one of the following- autistic, extremely introverted, bullied or pretentious.

[asmodean-deserved-better]

Before I say anything about my thoughts on the second season of the Wheel of Time I want to talk for a bit about adaptations in general

There are several ways to adapt something: 1) adapting as close to the text of the source material as possible (absolutely impossible for wot), 2) treating adaptation as a second draft and 3) taking characters and plot points and playing with them like dolls

There are no rigid boundaries between them, but Wheel of Time tv show is mostly the third type, and the best way to engage with it as a long time reader is to try to just mostly ignore what happens in the books. This is why I have enjoyed this season a lot more than the first one. My favourite episode of the season and the entire series so far (episode 7, daes dae'mar) is so inaccurate to the book characters and plot that if i looked at it only from that point of view i'd be seething and hissing. Instead I had a very good time

(On the other hand, calling all the people who dislike the adaptation fun-hating men who fret over every tiniest change is unfair. People were hoping for the adaptation of the second type and that expectation was not fulfilled and they are understandably upset. I hated the first season so much i stopped interacting with the fandom for nearly two years)

I am intrigued by the direction of the plot, and some of the choices the adaptation makes are the kind of changes I was hoping for. For example, Perrin's vision in an empty village. It replaces the scene that doesn't really adds anything new about the channeling with a scene that finally reveals some of Perrin's abilities to the viewer. (I do love that scene in the book but it's neither here nor there)

Same goes for some character details. Elayne making alcohol with the one power very much didn't happen in the books but it feels in line with the things she will be doing in the future and thus feels in character. Rand working in an insane asylum tells us that he is compassionate but also the kind of person who would constantly surround himself with reminders of his horrible unavoidable destiny.

That being said, the show is far from perfect, and my liveblogs reflected my opinion pretty clearly.

My main issue is technical. The writing and editing quality is extremely inconsistent and it really drags the show down. The show overall does a pretty bad job at establishing how much time passes between scenes, where the important locations are in relation to each other and how much distance is between them.

I could make a list of other writing problems: plot contrivances, unnatural sounding or cliched dialogue, contradictions in the internal logic of the world, a lot of telling with little showing, but most of it is in the liveblogs already.

Overall, I am looking forward to the third season and hope for improvements

[lis5664]

I have finished A Memory of Light, completing the WoT re-read I started in December 2021!

I switched to audiobooks midway through The Eye of the World and highly recommend that route to people interested in the series. It makes the sloggy parts go by much faster (and the good parts are still very good). The ones read by Michael Kramer and Kate Reading are generally excellent. I've heard good things about the new ones read by Rosamund Pike as well, but I think she's only done the first three or four books so far.

I also highly recommend Tar Valon or Bust as a great read-along podcast made by two fans of the series (@runwithskizzers and @jennirl) who take a really nuanced approach to what works and doesn't work, drawing from their own writing and editing backgrounds. They cover the show as well.

[wot-tidbits]

Brandon Sanderson is no more authority on the Wheel of Time

I love the hypocricy in this gorgeous fandom. For years Brandon Sanderson was used as a shield how he supported the TV series and the stupid bookcloaks should shut up. When he was speaking good things about the show he was wonderful human. He was constantly a stick in the hands of showfans with which the bad bookcloaks cannot argue. Shut up, stupid hater, Brandon supports it!

And now when he expressed some concerns on the script’s incompetency, now he is not the favourite child anymore. The very same people are now claiming that he is no authority anymore for WOT and to shut up as being disgusting problematic person. And how he shouldn't try to tell anything about writing to the production. And only Harriet and Maria can claim anything about the books and the adaptation. How fitting.

That beloved phrase “Another Turning of the Wheel” that you adore so much is literally coined by Brandon Sanderson himself in the first place. But this doesn’t mean anything for you.

I asked before the same question and I will ask it again.

What will happen in the scenario where Harriet also voices disappointment in the adaptation? What then? Are you gonna cancel her too? Are you so self-centered in your ideology crusade that you are gonna talk shit about Harriet only because she doesn’t agree with you? Remember, you said the same “No” for Brandon, darling. Now look at your vitriol comments thrown at him. It turned out you did not like him the whole time? While literally using his name to silence bookcloaks for years? How cute.

I can answer for myself. For the last 6 years I have not told a single bad word for Harriet despite that her name was also constantly used* as supporter of TV series and I have only respect for her.

Let the Light keep you safe. LightOne

P.S.

Did you notice the phrase "constantly used as supporter"? Yeah, this is because 4 years later we still do not have her actual endorsement of the TV series AFTER watching them. But but but Harriet was there on the film set of Season 1!!! Yeah, do you know who else was there on the film set of Season 1? Brandon Sanderson. Exactly.

Despite that several people had that opportunity to ask her directly but for some reason in their interviews Harriet did not make that comment in particular. (Kritter, I am looking at you, sweet darling, and your botched manipulative question. "Interesting" is still not even close to endorsement.) We learned that Harriet is also involved in the new project for the deluxe WOT editions and its new art which to be "as close to text as possible". I wonder why they had to include this idea. I really wonder why. I cannot think of a reason.

And this is exactly why I am not asking "hypothetical" scenario at all.