#fuck madam yu

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

no because fr and when they say jc is just like his mother and I'm over here "do you realize that should be offensive, right?" BUT THEY SAY IT AS COMPLIMENT OMG

The man doesn't even like himself yet has an entitlement complex because of her and how she raised him. It's baffling that they try to say because she loved him, there was no abuse.

Or that it's "cultural dissonance". I grew up with a traditional Mexican family where the men are placed on pedestals of entitlement yet called trash as well as the women in our households mocked for being women and expected roles to fulfill as a woman. I saw enough of one of my parents as well as friends mothers being emotionally and sometimes physically abusive while we all claimed it was discipline or for our own good, that they did it because they cared and loved us.

No matter what love is apparently involved it doesn't erase years of abusive harm done to children. We learn to call it not as terrible, not as bad, not that serious from the start because they were parents and it was called respect.

And how Madam Yu stans say these same things is terrifying and sad. No I do not think she is a strong girl boss women when she raised her son to be as awful as her and verbally abused him that he has a self esteem complex that made him hate Wei Wuxian who wanted to support him because she was a hateful and jealous women.

[mxtxfanatic]

While flipping through mdzs to verify some stray thoughts of mine, I happened to fall into a translation discrepancy that I feel really, really emphasizes how important it is to have a proper grasp on the language you are translating before translating for a public audience.

Now before we get too deep into this, I want to reiterate that I am someone who does not understand Mandarin in any form but has been reading translations (both by humans and machines) for a few years now. However, because I have been reading translations that tend to follow the Mandarin more closely in grammar and because I haven't shied away from reading machine-made or bad human translations, I have noticed some places where mistranslations from Mandarin to English are common: pronouns, verb-subject matching, negatives, prepositions, and conjunctions. For this post, we will be focusing on the latter two.

In the lead-up to the Wen invasion of Lotus Pier, we are given a scene where Madam Yu whips Wei Wuxian, and in this scene, we are given a glimpse as to Madam Yu's average punishments towards the young ward.

While Madam Yu always pelted him with hostile words, she’d never really hit him hard before—two or three lashes at most, or being made to kneel or confined indoors, and it never took Jiang Fengmian long to release him from that.

—Vol. 3, Chapt. 12: Sandu: The Three Poisons, 7seas

In the past, although Madam Yu had always come at him with harsh words, she had never truly been cruel to him. The most that he’d been through were two or three strikes and being grounded. He’d also be let out by Jiang FengMian soon later.

—Chapt. 57: Poisons, exr

Reading these back-to-back, it should be very clear that though the same section is being translated from the same exact source, these translations do not say the same thing. The official stresses that Madam Yu had never hit Wei Wuxian "that hard" before, as well as saying that his punishments were a few lashes OR being made to kneel OR being confined, three separate punishments never taken together according to this diction. The exr translation, however, states that Madam Yu had "never truly been cruel to him" (emphasis mine) and that him being whipped was in addition to being confined. The emphasis on the strength of her lashings is absent, but an emphasis on the intent behind her actions—that she never meant to be honestly cruel to her ward—is established in its stead. (While this section as translated by exr does not mention kneeling, later scenes reflecting on Wei Wuxian's childhood in Lotus Pier do.)

Both of these translations... are wrong.

If we give exr the benefit of the doubt by virtue of being the original completed English translation of mdzs, then the official 7seas release should automatically raise red flags for the ways it seems to directly contradict the narrative that has existed for a few years before the novel was licensed. It doesn't help that the official has been riddled with many mistranslations and omissions from the very first volume, lowering any credibility it would otherwise have to stand on. But if we were to examine the rest of the exr translation, then the emphasis on Madam Yu's intent also rings false given the fact that we are told over and over again in this same translation that 1) Madam Yu is, in fact, unnecessarily, illogically, and erratically mean-spirited and cruel, and 2) Wei Wuxian knows this even at this time in his life (shoutout to the Lotus Pod Seeds extra) and understands her actions as targeted cruelty. What does the actual text say, then?

Although Madam Yu always spoke ill of him before, her hand had never been this viciously cruel. At most, she whipped him two or three times and ordered him to kneel down and be confined to his room, and he would be released by Jiang Fengmian sometime later.

—@jiangwanyinscatmom (emphasis mine)

Madam Yu has never been "as cruel" as in that moment when whipping Wei Wuxian, because normally she only whips him 2-3 times. She would whip him a few times and send him to the ancestral hall to kneel and be in confinement, which matches up to the memories that Wei Wuxian reflects on in other parts of the novel. This translation gets rid of the character inconsistencies that the other two translations create. So how did we get here? Remember how I pointed out those common Mandarin-to-English translation mistakes? Well, both the exr and 7seas translations fall into the trap of confusing conjunctions and prepositions. That's how we get a list of punishments rather than an order of events for a singular punishment type. That's how we get "not truly cruel" instead of "not as cruel." That's how we get these sections contradicting what we know about Madam Yu's personality and behavior from the rest of the novel through those two translations. Unfortunately, both translation teams just happened to flub in the same area in slightly different ways, and while I'm willing to give a multi-lingual grade-school student translating in their spare time the benefit of the doubt, a paid translator with a translation team hired by a professional publishing house should have better quality control than a spare-time hobbyist.

Also, just in case anyone wants more proof on what mxtx meant for us to take away about Madam Yu's treatment of Wei Wuxian from this scene, it was also apparently so important to mxtx for readers to know that Madam Yu was truly cruel to Wei Wuxian during his childhood that the act of her routinely whipping him whenever he was in her presence was something that was added into the revised mdzs. It was not in the original unedited version of the novel.

In the past, although Lady Yu always insulted or patronized him, she never laid a hand on him. At worst, she’d make him kneel for prolonged periods of time, but he’d always get bailed out by Jiang FengMian after a while.

—Chapt. 57. Act 12: Sandu/Three Poisons, Part 2, qinghe-nie

[lecinea]

Listen, both Yu Ziyuan and Jiang Fengmian were shitty parents that fucked their kids (& wwx) up in various different ways. But I will forever be more sympathetic to a frustrated woman in a patriarchal society stuck in a toxic marriage than to the man who has power and authority to change something but refuses to do it because he doesn't like conflict and pretends like nothing is wrong.

[tea-cat-arts]

"Madam Yu would be a Karen/ treat minimum wage employees like shit-" literally the only servant she's shown abusing is Wei Wuxian (and that's because he's the victim of a proxy war between her and Jiang Fengmian around the idea of him being adopted into the family, not because of his class). Madam Yu's two handmaid's love and respect her, and Madam Yu actually defends them when Wang Lingjiao tries being a Karen to them. She also tells Wang Lingjiao to fuck off when she demands the Jiang servants bring her tea.

Also, Karens are unpleasant women, but not all unpleasant women are Karens. That term is about entitlement and being unreasonable (and often times, racist). Madam Yu is mean and unpleasant to talk to, but she keeps most of her interactions brief and probably doesn't have the time or mental energy to be a Karen or hold a grudge that long. If you want an actual example of a Karen in mdzs, Wang Lingjiao is right there

[jcs-singular-slut-strand]

Not-so friendly reminder that Yu Ziyuan's domineering personality and social status doesn't get rid of the sex-based oppression she no doubt faced 😊

[liverbiver9]

everyone always has modern!wwx playing the flute and other classical instruments but you can’t make me believe that he would choose a FLUTE over the harmonica or kazoo.

that man would make everyone hate his motherfucking guts the moment he figured out he could play I Wanna Dance With Somebody by Whitney Houston on the harmonica. He would be known as “the kazoo guy” in high school because he was never seen anywhere without his kazoo, playing All Star nonstop on repeat.

[meteortrails]

I have truly no fucking clue what I’m getting at here but there’s really something about the way that women just. haunt mdzs at every turn. one of the most important pieces in lwj’s characterization and wwx learning about him is the discovery of his mother and what that relationship meant; cangse sanren left an impact on her generation profound enough that it shapes the interactions wwx has with them. madam yu gets reflected over and over again in every time her sons are angry, cruel, unyielding; every time they lock their own feelings away for the sake of pressing on regardless of the cost. yanli’s death is a gaping hole that even those who never met her must navigate around.

[friedwizardwhispers]

Me,before reading mdzs: woah there are a lot of of hualian fanfic adopting Wei Wuxian, I wonder why ?

Me, now, in the middle of mdzs: Oh....

Everything makes so much sense now.

[biennatodd]

some thoughts on the jiang family and classism:

i feel like the jiangs’ have one of the most interesting relationships with classism in MDZS, because the beliefs they espouse don’t necessarily align with their actions.

there is this perception that ymj is kind of this wild and free (...untamed perhaps? ba dum tshhh) land that doesnt subject itself to the same standards of classism as the rest of the jianghu, which is why wwx was able to thrive there. but there is also a cognitive dissonance because wwx is not treated particularly well due to in part his status (there are many other factors but thats a different post!)

one of yzy’s most constant criticisms of wwx is that he’s the son of a servant, and although jfm elevates his status--he never expresses any illusions of actually making wwx his heir or attempts to adopt him. jfm is the cause of most of the contradiction here.

jfm doesn’t actually elevate wwx, not in the way he thinks he does. he gives wwx the status of being jc’s personal attendant, expecting him to grow alongside and take care of jc and jyl. however, this is the status wwx wouldve already had if his father wcz had stayed in ymj. so he wasn’t really giving wwx anything that he wouldn’t have already had rights to. but at the same time he elevates wwx’s status in other ways: allowing him to eat with the family, letting him study in gusu with the other young masters, letting him choose whether or not he wants to go to the wen indoctrination camp. (notice i do not list him being head disciple here. that’s because i very much so believe wwx earned his position as head disciple through his own merits.)

and the reason i think jfm gave wwx these privileges is because they’re the privileges he wishes he could give to wcz. removing social barriers between himself and his best friend so that they could be as close as he wanted. and this goes along with jfm believing that he isn’t classist. 

but the thing is jfm doesn’t realize that he is actually just practicing exceptionalism. he doesnt actually take issue with the system itself, he just thinks that wwx (and wcz and cssr) are too great to be limited by the system. they’re the exception to the rule. and this internal dissonance causes further issues with his family, particularly jc and yzy.

yzy has no illusions about her stance on classism. she IS classist in the way society would expect her to be and she shows no desire to change that. she is sticking to the status quo!

jc however recognizes that he (and his father) are practicing exceptionalism. he just doesnt care. he shows favoritism! he doesn’t treat all people equally because 1) he doesnt care about all people and 2) society doesnt expect him to either. it is not unreasonable of him to have a vested interest in the people closest to him and to prioritize them over other people (His Family+WWX --> YMJ --> Literally everyone else.). In fact this is what most people tend to do. But this causes tension between him and jfm, as well as tension between him and yzy!

bc jfm is an idealist who thinks jc should do MORE and be more like him, and yzy is a realist who thinks jc is already doing TOO MUCH. he is caught between them both physically and philosophically, because he is actually representing the middle ground between them.

[yu-ziyuan]

i love you jiang yanli shes like an oc to me. she got fridged in the book so now i get to say anything i want about her and no one can prove me wrong because she barely gets any agency in canon so we dont know WHAT shed do given the chance

[parlerenfleurs]

Wait I just realised something. Perhaps Jiang Cheng clings stubbornly to the "belief" he can blame Wei WuXian for the massacre of Lotus Pier because that allows him not to lay that blame at his mother's feet

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

The uwu-fication of Jiang Cheng also comes with the side effect of justifying Yu Ziyuan's abuse over Wei Wuxian, and EVEN JIANG CHENG.

"She was the way she was because she cared"

"It was all Jiang Fengmian's fault for ignoring Jiang Cheng"

"YZY has a right to be mad at WWX bc she never asked for there to be another child in the family"

Like the braindeas takes make me want to yeet myself off a cliff 💀

I also think that Jiang Fengmian is over-villianized by JC stans to an extent that he becomes a caricature of a bad father.

V curious to know your thoughts on all this!

Good afternoon!

I've had a long standing issue of his stans propelling Madam Yu to saintly levels, as they deny her abuse of children, or try to excuse it for the dismissal of what she does to Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian themselves.

The only ideal outcome in the Jiangs lives as a "what if" is if she died too young for Jiang Cheng to remember. I do not mean that by nature he would change (I believe he would always be dour, caustic and rude as his base self). But he would be competent and would not have a dangerously possessive and obsessive lifestyle to the detriment of his self and others.

To say abuse is care, is one of the most used lines to gaslight victims to stay. As well as shifting the blame to say the victims should have done more, they should have been stronger, less scared. It's their fault for letting it get to that point after all.

To blame a child for simple existing and needing basic decency and care, is heartless and people who think that enough to argue, is vile.

[mxtxfanatic]

From the beginning, Jin ZiXuan had never believed that a maiden like her, born from a noble sect but had low cultivation, could do anything on the battlefield or help with anything at all. To put it simply, he thought that she just wanted to find a reason to approach him, that she was just here to add to the trouble.

—Chapt. 69: Departure, exr

He’s so fucking self-centered, omg! He really does think the world and everyone in it revolves around him!

[rhymaes]

The Untamed (2019) // “You’re Not a Girl in a Movie,” Hala Allan

[tea-cat-arts]

Madam Yu defenders will be like "Madam Yu was a complex person with a tragic life and though none of that excuses her actions, it does explain them so please stop reducing to her to a monster and a caricature of an evil woman" and her haters will respond "so you condone child abuse"

[lilnasxvevo]

Can we talk about Madam Yu’s one line that’s like “The next time you kick a dog you should first check to see who’s holding the leash” bc ngl I think about it a lot.