#grrm saying 'i don’t want to give too much way because this is going to be in the later books' LET'S GO

[ofthepyre]

Egg lowered his voice. “Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron’s dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy.”

— The Mystery Knight.

“Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, ‘I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.’”

— Daenerys I, ASOS.

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

— Daenerys III, ASOS.

It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories, there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet.

— George R.R. Martin confirming a Targaryen prophecy about the Long Night that motivated Aegon I to conquer Westeros and how it plays out in the books.

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

I do think it’s quite interesting how GRRM’s ideals of a good king are confronted and challenged in Jon’s storyline.

Jon is undoubtedly a good person. And he has the capability to be a good king. But being a good person in the world of ASOIAF is not always rewarded. And being a good king is easier said than done.

“They say the king gives justice and protects the weak.” She started to climb off the rock, awkwardly, but the ice had made it slippery and her foot went out from under her. Jon caught her before she could fall, and helped her safely down. The woman knelt on the icy ground. “M’lord, I beg you—”

“Don’t beg me anything. Go back to your hall, you shouldn’t be here. We were commanded not to speak to Craster’s women.”

“You don’t have to speak with me, m’lord. Just take me with you, when you go, that’s all I ask.”

All she asks, he thought. As if that were nothing.

“I’ll … I’ll be your wife, if you like. My father, he’s got nineteen now, one less won’t hurt him none.”

(Jon III, ACOK)

The situation with Gilly at Craster’s Keep is a perfect example of how difficult it is to give the king’s justice in certain situations. Jon wants to help Gilly, he even feels guilty and horrible for choosing not to, but he cannot so easily offer his help because he is a man of the Night’s Watch.

What’s interesting about this conversation is that Gilly addresses and appeals to Jon as she would a king. She places herself as the weak party and Jon as the king who is expected to protect the weak. She kneels to him, as one kneels to a king, and addresses him as “M’lord”; ironic because Jon is just a bastard, who is now a member of the Night’s Watch. Much has been said about this exchange, and fandom often gives Jon a lot less empathy than he deserves. The truth is that he is in a very terrible situation, notwithstanding the character development that is to come regarding his perception of the wildlings.

But I’m looking back at GRRM’s quote about how being king gives one wealth and power and ability to do something, anything. This is something that Jon absolutely lacks in this situation. He may have been symbolically positioned as the rightful king by the narrative, but that doesn’t mean he has any actual power to enact change within the narrative itself. If Jon were nearly as callous about this whole situation as this fandom wants us to believe, he wouldn’t feel so guilty about refusing to help Gilly as he does later on. P.S: I also want to note that Sam is often lauded for being the one to help the girl, “unlike Jon”…except, Sam only does so when the chaos that follows the mutiny and Craster’s death gives Gilly the opportunity to flee. Sam understood that he had no power to help Gilly early in ACOK and that’s why he sent her to Jon. But he also overestimated just how much Jon would be able to do at that moment. Jon may have been the Lord Commander’s steward, but that didn’t give him the ability to go against Mormont (especially when the LC himself was turning a blind eye to Craster’s vices).

It’s then interesting how this situation of a young girl trying to flee a precarious situation is repeated later on in ADWD and this time, Jon manages to help her. Except the difference is that Jon is the Lord Commander now, not just the LC’s steward. What he couldn’t do for Gilly in ACOK, he can do for Alys even though that too places him in a tough situation.

“Why not the king? Karhold declared for Stannis.”

“My uncle declared for Stannis, in hopes it might provoke the Lannisters to take poor Harry’s head. Should my brother die, Karhold should pass to me, but my uncles want my birthright for their own. Once Cregan gets a child by me they won’t need me anymore. He’s buried two wives already.” She rubbed away a tear angrily, the way Arya might have done it. “Will you help me?”

“Marriages and inheritance are matters for the king, my lady. I will write to Stannis on your behalf, but—”

Alys Karstark laughed, but it was the laughter of despair. “Write, but do not look for a reply. Stannis will be dead before he gets your message. My uncle will see to that.”

“What do you mean?”

“Arnolf is rushing to Winterfell, ’tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king’s back. He cast his lot with Roose Bolton long ago … for gold, the promise of a pardon, and poor Harry’s head. Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter. So he cannot help me, and would not even if he could.” Alys knelt before him, clutching the black cloak. “You are my only hope, Lord Snow. In your father’s name, I beg you. Protect me.”

(Jon IX, ADWD)

We’re seeing a repeat of Gilly and Jon here. Alys is now the weak and helpless maid and Jon, who is still a brother of the Night’s Watch, is once again made to play the role of a king.

Obviously the narrative, as it was with Gilly’s situation in ACOK, is saying that Jon is the king because while Alys could’ve pinned her hopes on Stannis Baratheon (who is actually titled), she chose to flee north to Jon the bastard. And what’s interesting this time is that Jon actually helps Alys in whatever way he can. He uses his status as Lord Commander and his dealings with the Thenns to secure Alys’ marriage. He oversteps his bounds as Lord Commander, and the irony is that he starts to act more as a king would.

So it’s interesting to see how the character often marked as the true king by GRRM’s narrative handles the moral obligations that come with kingship. And GRRM is putting Jon through these tests when he doesn’t even have a crown of his own. GRRM often makes Jon prove his worth as a king despite thinking of himself only as a bastard. We see this best when Stannis comes to the Wall.

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. “You’re bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.”

(Jon XI, ASOS)

It is true that Jon and Stannis are in very different situations. Stannis is aware that he is the rightful king (as Robert’s heir), and he has also heard from Melisandre that he is the prophesied prince. Jon, on the other hand, is a bastard boy completely unaware of his royal birth or his magical destiny. Yet it’s so interesting that it’s Jon the bastard who was actually doing his duty as the king (without even knowing it) whereas Stannis had to be reminded of it. So despite his failings every now and then, Jon does live up to the author’s ideal of a great king.

[princesssszzzz]

I liked your video and your right. I’m so disappointed!

So many annoying people in the fandom are claiming they want Rhaena to do more and having a dragon is a good change to the story. I’m going to be so pissed if they ruin Nettles.

They’re only saying that in defense of Rhaenyra. They don’t actually like or care about Rhaena or really any other character, I mean it’s pretty obvious how this fandom behaves. It’s very bizarre and I don’t understand why considering GRRM’s universe should be known for ensemble characters who will have their own moments and motivations. Like how does anyone watch GOT or read AGOT and then comes to the DOD expecting simple and juvenile type writing of literally everyone on team black just doing absolutely nothing expect supporting one person. It makes no sense. They definitely don’t care about anything close to a good show adaptation and don’t want characters to seem like people. Even the dragons are doing their own thing 😭 It’s basically impossible to end House of the Dragon without Nettles being exactly the way she is in Fire&Blood. Not only does that effect HOTD, but also dragon lore just throughout the universe because I do believe Nettles was supposed to be like the legitimate PROOF someone can ride a dragon without having Valyrian blood. It’s just very obvious, it’s almost impossible to misinterpret but they found a way to do it anyways.

Also the people saying they want Rhaena to “do more” *side eye* My definition of Rhaena doing more is not the same as them and I know why they claim that. Their definition is creating a team black robot. Rhaena is actually related to these people and kinda stuck no matter how horrible they act. Nettles is not related to these people and doesn’t HAVE to help them, and legit is able to walk away when they aren’t. This is clearly a threat to Rhaenyra extremist who want every other character to just be a cheerleader with nothing else going on and no other motivations. That really can’t be forced onto Nettles. So Nettles and Daemon having a relationship that’s NOT by blood is very impactful vs Daemon just not wanting his failing wife to execute his daughter which is like an obvious no shit situation. It’s not very impactful emotionally. Daemon defending a girl who everyone is claiming he shouldn’t give af about has way bigger implications. Nettles is one of the few dance characters that don’t have to be expanded on because we already have enough. There’s no reason to alter anything about her. Any bad writing Nettles gets is an intentional fuck up because F&B laid it out perfectly, someone would really have to go out of their way to ruin it. I’m now seeing these same weirdos d x r extremist shipper weirdos claiming Nettles shouldn’t be cut like stop the cap we all saw who was creating anti-nettles agendas. They were actually the ones who created the Rhaena claiming dragons “rumors” because it was them trying to manifest it. They wanted her to claim Sheepstealer and then started saying vermithor so rhaenyra won’t have to deal with people being traitors. They need to accept their favorite characters and their storylines for what it is. This is why people need to stop pretending like they can portray a character like rhaenyra as better than she is because now it effects other characters…..

GTFO, sorry but that trailer was such obvious fan service

If they want Daemon to work on his relationship with Rhaena then the way I would do it is getting it out the way before she even goes to the Vale in ep7. There’s too much going on after that for that to be an ongoing issue atp. Then his relationship with Nettles really has nothing to do with his daughters, or really anyone outside of Rhaenyra getting pissed.

[esther-dot]

I feel really bad for the originator of the Ashford theory, reading those posts you screencapped. It's not a 'crack theory' (unless they're putting it down because Jonsas took a serious hold of it), since structural foreshadowing is a basic storytelling tool. Hiding poetry in history, which seems a past-time GRRM particularly enjoys--- it's not just there to be there, but to lesson us in reading the past and make us understand the current story more deeply.

We should be confident in our analyses, regardless of whether we share a ship in common (I am do believe in Jonsa, but this goes for everyone), because storytelling can generally be trusted to be intentional. Anybody who wants to act like being incurious is more intellectually justifiable because it's less emotionally fraught is not worth spending time on. It is actually disappointing when stories are not considered and thoughtful (which is not a testament to so-called 'complexity'; The Little Prince is considered and thoughtful)--- fault in reading too much into things usually lay in perspective, less in doubt of substance.

Then again, Originator of Ashord Theory being possessive as claimant probably points more to dismissing it as crack because other people have taken ahold of it in a way they didn't like. If I am perfectly honest, were it not them having noticed it, someone else would have later (and someone else on Reddit did).

It's exactly the sort of thing I look for when I am engaging in a story because it is a tool I see used often. It was what attracted me to Jonsa, not that I was looking for evidence.

(about this ask)

The issue definitely wasn’t a lack of confidence in their own reading, they’re a tumblr BNF! I think Jonsas have written so much about it and so convincingly, it’s become widely viewed as a Jonsa theory and eclipsed the original intent which is their problem with it. Sometime ago someone shared an AltShift video here (a YouTube BNF), and he had included the Ashford Tourney as evidence for Jonsa, so I do think the goal of the blogger now labeling it “crack” is to detract from the Jonsa of it/for shipping reasons, not because they don’t believe in their own work.

As for the broader idea, I certainly agree that pre canon characters and events are written to add depth to the canon events. We can all expect that and look for parallels and contrasts with assurance that they are conversing with each other. It seems to me that every part of the fandom attempts that in some way, we simply come to different conclusions about what those things mean. I can look at something and accept a Jonsa interpretation but also understand, there’s another factor here too. And while I agree that many things are intentional in ASOIAF, I’m also aware that things can subconsciously influence and slip into a work. I recently watched this clip of Spielberg being told, he didn’t recognize this on his own, that he had included his parents love story in a film. Anyone might think, it had to be deliberate, but it wasn’t!

So, not saying anyone should be less confident, I just think it’s good to be aware that after a parallel is recognized, our interpretation of it is where we can all take off in different directions. For example, Jonnel and Sansa is perhaps the most beloved Jonsa foreshadowing (if it isn’t the Ashford Tourney 😅), and I absolutely think it’s groundwork for canon events. The question isn’t if it is, but how. Will it be a parallel, only, the point of the marriage this go around is to right a wrong? Give the girl her home back? (If say, Robb’s Will is recognized). I’ve questioned that simply because it seems like a big task to get everyone on board with Jon being legitimate and becoming their Lord and/or their King only to have them then immediately turn around and all accept he’s actually a Targ and will marry his “sister.” I wouldn’t be mad if that’s what Martin did, but when I think about how much agency he likes to give non POV characters, I’m a little skeptical he’d pull that turnaround off.

So then I think, well, maybe the idea is that unlike Jonnel, Jon will refuse Winterfell again and insist it is Sansa’s again only to ultimately be rewarded in the end by marrying her when she has the power to choose, and she chooses him? People have been very outspoken about how dumb they think the idea of Sansa being QitN is, and maybe that’s too much of a leap for the North because Martin does like his realism, but considering all the female heirs talk going on, Martin is certainly going to say something there, and Jon will have some complicating factors that might make Sansa more favorable to people.

Basically, Jon is a good person, he’ll do right by the Starks, is that the entire point? Look at the way the older generation of men treated women, this generation will be better? Or will Martin use the extraordinary circumstances to benefit Sansa / female heirs? Create an entirely new normal for the North? The story will talk to itself, but what exactly is it saying? That we can endlessly debate!

[peachysunrize]

Hello!

What's your opinion on Alys Rivers' character? I know we don't have much information about her in F&B and what we do have sometimes sound contradictory, but all the love she's been getting from TG even before she appeared on screen is weird to me. People can have their headcanons and theories ofc, but why already elevate a character we don't even know much about. And I'm not talking only about Alysmond shippers, even though they are the loudest in this. Personally, I always had a feeling that Alys played her own game and msnipulated (maybe even bewitched, Gayle Rankin spoke about her as a woman with powers) Aemond by leading him to his demise. This might be an unpopular opinion in green fandom, but it's how I feel and felt while reading the book. Idk, there was always something icky about her, the line about dragon's bastard licking at her womb or something like that, then the whole age difference and the way she met Aemond (he basically massacres everyone she knew but spares her - why?), then she somehow has the power to make a man's head explode but can't predict what will happen at the God's Eye. Also, the way the fandom oversexualize her with the annoying "hot witchy big breasted milf" is off putting (and we are all aware of how GRRM loves to describe bosoms of his female characters, but if I recall correctly, the only description of Alys he gave is her long dark hair and how she looks much younger than she actually is, so where all this bs came from??). Idk, I always had this feeling that she made Aemond sure of his victory and purposefully misled him for her own gain. I might be wrong ofc because I have no idea how are they going to adapt this character in HotD. However, judging solely by the book, I fail to see any reason for her popularity before introducing her show version.

Sorry for the rant, but I would like to hear your take on this.

Hello my beloved nonnie! Thank you for this very interesting ask!!! I’m gonna put my answer under the cut<3

I agree with most of the things you say!!! I had a problem with Alys since I gained more information about her.

There’s just so many things wrong with her… I don’t know I mean I don’t get the hype about her. Maybe because I haven’t seen her or when I read the chapters about her and Aemond… she just felt so off to me.

I think one of the main reasons this fandom really hypes her up is because of Aemond and how we’ll get more screen time of him. And well I hope that HoTD really gives us something to rely on because judging by the books we don’t have much.

Personally, I don’t like Gayle as Alys. Don’t get me wrong, I have nothing against her, I just don’t think she resembles Alys at all. She looks too sweet and she doesn’t seem intimidating enough for me compared to the magnificent cast we have. (Ewan being hella intimidating and scary when he wants with his facial expressions, Olivia and her eyes that are a whole actresses by themselves, etc). And moreover, about Alys’ appearance, we actually do know that she’s a wet nurse, so judging by that she needs to be curvy (due to lactation and stuff), so I guess that big breasted comes from here.

I also find so many things wrong with Alysmond’s encounters, so so so many. 1. How the fuck did Aemond spare her? Why did he spare her?? They had just met and suddenly the man who we know is a bloodthirsty murderer gets a soft spot for her? I get the his blood was up but come on, it’s not Aemond at all. It’s more like something Daemon or Aegon would do.

2. The bigger issue to me is that how Alys enjoyed it. She’s middle aged fucking a 19 years old. I think everyone gets where I’m going with this…

3. NONNIE YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!!!!! I always thought about how she couldn’t predict Aemond’s downfall in God’s Eye. LIKE BRO IS SO PUSSY DRUNK GOING AROUND SAYING MY ALY MY ALYS but his witch can’t even tell him how he’s about to die?? But she can blow up someone’s head because they didn’t pledge their loyalty to her unborn child. If she is this strong witch that everyone knows about, why didn’t she save her lover???

Yes, disliking Alys in this fandom is very unpopular, but I’m with you in this. I think we could have gotten someone better in description and appearance for Alys (personally would have loved to see Eva Green or even Rebecce Freguson as Alys) but we just have to wait and see what the writers have in store for us<3

[istumpysk]

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. - Jon X, ADWD

Alys' smile reminds Jon of Arya and breaks his heart. Alys resembles Arya on physical features. It is a parallel to Barra's mother's smile cutting out Ned's heart, reminding him of Lyanna. However, no where does Jon say that snowflakes melting on her cheeks and hair, lace binding her hair and her flushed cheeks remind him of Arya because that would be a funny as hell and wrong, since in this book his memories of Arya include her hair resembling a bird's nest and her dangling dolls upside down. This does not, in any way, looks like the Arya we and Jon know of. So it is incredibly hilarious to me how people try to relate the latter half of the paragraph to Arya as if it is given it 'belongs' to her somehow 😂

Exactly.

I'd be greatly concerned if the author had Jon overtly compare Ygritte, Alys, or Val to Sansa. That would be far too blatant, wouldn't it?

But I don't necessarily want to give away my hand. So, what do I do when I plant the seed? Well, I plant the seed, but I try to do a little literary sleight of hand, and while I'm planting the seed, my other hand is up there waving and is distracting you with some flashy bit of wordplay or something that's going on in the foreground, while the seed is being planted in the background. So hopefully the seed is there, the foreshadowing is there, but maybe you won't notice it, because it's surrounded by so many other things. - George R. R. Martin

x

George did say, despite what readers see as clues to a romantic relationship between Jon/Arya in the books themselves, he did not confirm this so easily but inferred that what Jon saw in Ygritte was a comfort level of femininity. 

[...]

My con friend was referring to George explaining Jon's perception: GRRM replied, "You know, I don’t think it's a reference for that [for romance]. It's a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It's like someone who reminds you of, you know… Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn't put him off because he is used to that." - George R. R. Martin

[agentrouka-blog]

Hi! Have you read the hunger games? Well, every time i read the final chapter and the epilogue i can’t stop thinking about jon and sansa and how that ending could be theirs, both characters suffered and faced terrible things, they lost the life they knew and several people they loved, both together and apart, to the end, when the war is over and they return to the place where they grew up, they are both different people with their own traumas to deal with but they manage to face it and support each other, even though the years go by they still have replicas of things who saw (with good reason!) but managed to find a balance, they have their love, they have their own children and i can’t stop seeing jon and sansa in them, as they will spend (probably) rebuilding Winterfell, with the memories of the past but with the certainty of a bright future for their children and their children’s children. I want to quote something that in my opinion is very jon/sansa!

“Peeta and I grow back together. There are still moments when he clutches the back of a chair and hangs on until the flashbacks are over. I wake screaming from nightmares of mutts and lost children. But his arms are there to comfort me. And eventually his lips. [...] That what I need to survive is not Gale’s fire, kindled with rage and hatred. I have plenty of fire myself. What I need is the dandelion in the spring. The bright yellow that means rebirth instead of destruction. The promise that life can go on, no matter how bad our losses. That it can be good again. And only Peeta can give me that.”

And this other one too:

“My children, who don’t know they play on a graveyard. Peeta says it will be okay. We have each other. And the book. We can make them understand in a way that will make them braver. But one day have to explain about my nightmares. Why they came. Why they won’t ever really go away. I’ll tell them how I survive it. I’ll tell them that on bad mornings, it feels impossible to take pleasure in anything because I’m afraid it could be taken away. That’s when I make a list in my head of every act of goodness I’ve seen someone do. It’s like a game. Repetitive. Even a little tedious after more than twenty years. But there are much worse games to play.”

I think this is the bittersweet ending they will get! (or so i try to think) but I really want to know what you think or what would your bittersweet ending be like?

I haven't read the Hunger Games books, but this passage really does seem to reflect the ending GRRM is going for, too! The bitterness is in the way their scars and losses can never be erased, but the sweetness is in their desire and ability to move forward and create something better together. And, unlike the previous generation, they won't be swallowed up by repressed trauma but work through it.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

What Are yourself thoughts on the recent Reveal of Aegon's prophecy? I have lost a lot of respect towards George for introducing at this stage one of the worst fantasy clichés to justify the Targaryen invasion of sovereign realms.

These are prophecies that ultimately played out as the climax of the original series. This show suggests that not only are they known by the Targaryens 200 years before, but they’ve been known for about a century.

Condal: I think they were very intrigued by that. A lot of them said I committed A Song of Ice and Fire heresy, but I did tell them: “That came from George.” I reassured everybody.

What is the significance of these prophecies, George? Unless I’ve missed it, is this something you wrote in one of the books, or is that an invention of the show?

Martin: It’s mentioned here and there—in connection with Prince Rhaegar, for example [the brother of Daenerys, played on Game of Thrones by Wilf Scolding]. I mean, it’s such a sprawling thing now. In the Dunk and Egg stories [about a future king, “Egg,” a.k.a. Aegon V], there’s one of Egg’s brothers who has these prophetic dreams, which of course he can’t handle. He had become a drunkard because they freaked him out. If you go all the way back to Daenys the Dreamer, why did she leave? She saw the Doom of Valyria coming. All of this is part of it, but I’m still two books away from the ending, so I haven’t fully explained it all yet.

Is one of the implications of this series that the Targaryens might’ve been better prepared for the doomsday prophecy if not for this Dance of Dragons civil war that decimated their family and stripped them of these powerful beasts?

Martin: I don’t want to give too much away, because some of this is going to be in the later books, but this is 200 years before the events of Game of Thrones. There was no sell-by date on that prophecy. That’s the issue. The Targaryens that know about it are all thinking, Okay, this is going to happen in my lifetime, I have to be prepared! Or, It’s going to happen in my son’s lifetime. Nobody said it’s going to happen 200 years from now. If the Dance of the Dragons had not happened, what would’ve happened to the next generation? What would’ve happened in the generation after that? Yeah, there’s a lot to be unwound there.

For Seven’s sake, where’s Robert Baratheon when you need him?

(Warning: Disorganized ranting under the cut. Your feelings are shared)

I pretty much agree with your assessment. You have every right to be angry with this interpretation, considering it gives the Targaryens a twisted justification as Chosen Ones for conquering Westerosi lands “to save the world!” GRRM says he put foreshadowing here and there, but that was only about Targs having prophetic visions. Notice how no examples he cited were in Fire and Blood 1, aka the novel that dealt with Aegon I the most. In F&B1, it was Argilac’s snubbing of Orys, Harren’s tyranny in the Riverlands, and the implication that he and Visenya had planned the invasion for years. Furthermore, Aegon was offered an alliance multiple times over by the Durrandons, Martells, and Arryns; surely a network of alliances would do just as well for fighting a threat than conquest? But no, Aegon would settle for nothing except submission. The Field of Fire killed 5,000 Reach/Westermen and wounded tens of thousands more. But it’s ok guys, he apparently did it to save millions. The background politics of the Westeros situation was just a waste of time; F&B1 was too busy mocking feminism (Jeyne Poore as a horrendous caricature of Joan of Arc; the Maiden’s Day Cattle Show a mockery of the feminist protest of the 1968 Miss America beauty pageant) and sexualizing teenage girls to give any attention to such trivial matters as a potential prophecy that has implications for the entire series backstory. Well, that’s $20.00 I’m not getting back. It’s a retcon, and a particularly frustrating and nonsensical one at that. At this point, I’m just throwing up my hands and saying that GRRM can say this in an interview, but it doesn’t mean I have to believe Aegon I invaded to fight the others. It’s not book canon, but seems like a desperate attempt to get fans interested in a show based on a story the majority of us hate/don’t care about.

The Targaryens thought themselves above “the laws of gods and men” and their special affinity for dragons among other powers gave them the right to rule; this prophecy helps support that. Of course, thinking that you alone can lead the fight to stop the apocalyptic threat plays right into Targaryen exceptionalism, but at the same time thousands of people died just so Aegon could theoretically battle against a threat he saw in a dream. It also turns the Dornish resistance into working against Aegon’s and for humanity, as they’re refusing to work under Aegon. Aegon’s Dornish wars caused mass destruction of Dorne (killing many of their leaders) and killed many of his enemies-turned-allies…was that supposed to be part of his plan? Anyhow, this prophecy centers on the conqueror and his actions, while the feelings/actions of the conquered people are ignored or demonized (GRRM was also criticized for this with his handling of the Ghiscari).

The worst part is this isn’t the first time GRRM has retconned something into making the Targs look better; from BR being allowed to take Dark Sister with him to the Wall; to saying Brienne was a Dunkscendant and perhaps part Targaryen; comparing Daenerys to Nymeria of Ny Sar…and just the fact that all of his supplemental books have been focused on the Targaryens, who in the main series are one significant character and her secret nephews. The Starks, who he said are the heart of the series, are barely side characters; the Baratheons are demonized; the Lannisters uninteresting; the Greyjoys one-note; the Martells have particularly bad writing…it’s all the Targaryen show these days. I think GRRM let Dany’s popularity on the show influence his writing to the point that the Targaryens are the supplemental material’s protagonists, hence they get painted in a better light despite the wider implications (conquest apology) that creates.

[finitefall]

I don’t really care if Daemon was f wording Nettles or whatever, what I don’t understand is how he was basically chilling with her at Maidenpool while his kids were suffering and one was most likely death… I really don’t get how George wanted us to find him heroic when he basically abandoned his family to hung out with a teenage girl, it’s ridiculous if you think about it,he could be her grandpa. Also George made Rhaenyra ask for Nettles head to prove she was a tyrant,but it was also misogyny,I mean,if a King suspected his consort was f wording a teenage boy nobody would blink an eye if he asked for the heads of both,the Queen consort and her lover,I hate how George favored Daemon so much,sorry,he also betrayed her and we are supposed to be on his side? I’m teamRhaenyra all the way.

He didn't actually took off with Nettles to go on a vacation though. Rhaenyra and Daemon made plans together:

King's Landing must not be left undefended, to be sure. Queen Rhaenyra would remain in the city with Syrax, and her sons Aegon and Joffrey, whose persons could not be put at risk. [...] Three dragons should suffice for the defense of King's Landing; the rest would be going into battle. Prince Daemon himself would take Caraxes to the Trident, together with the girl Nettles and Sheepstealer, to find Prince Aemond and Vhagar and put an end to them.

Their base was Maidenpool, which makes sense since it's in the Riverlands, which is the region Aemond was burning with Vhagar when Daemon and Nettles left to find him. Rhaenyra only said Daemon should come back to King’s Landing because he was needed there after giving the order to kill Nettles. Before that, the plan hadn’t changed. So Daemon didn’t abandon his family to hang out with Nettles, chill and have fun. He died at 49, Nettles was 17, they had a father/daughter or mentor/student relationship. And he did love Nettles as family, she was important to him too, what’s wrong with that?

The last thing Daemon did before dying was killing Aemond, and driving Dark Sister into his blind eye instead of the other one was no coincidence. Before Blood & Cheese, he sent a note saying “An eye for an eye, a son for a son, Lucerys shall be avenged.” And that’s how he died: avenging Luke. He had never forgotten his family.

I love both Rhaenyra and Damon nonnie, but Rhaenyra had become a tyrant before asking for Nettle’s head. The people of King’s Landing welcomed her at first when she finally took her throne, because Aegon had no love there. Unfortunately, what happened to her turned her into a tyrant and the people turned against her. It had nothing to do with Daemon being in Maidenpool with Nettles. He’s not responsible for her actions, just as she’s just not responsible for his.

She didn’t ask for his head as well because she was still in love with him and yes, she chose to put all the blame on Nettles when she believed what Mysaria told her about them. Even though GRRM made no secret of Daemon being his favorite character, it’s not misogyny on his part here: Rhaenyra was never the champion of other women. Martin did denounce misogyny against Rhaenyra, he couldn’t have been any more clear about the fact that she had been usurped by her half-brother because she was a woman. It doesn’t mean she suddenly cared very much about women’s rights.

Personally, I’m team Daemyra all the way: I love them both just the way they are.

[thephantomcasebook]

You know, about the Matt, Emma, Olivia thing … I’ve heard so many versions, one of which is that they were protesting Sapochnik/Hess’s script, not the new one, and they’re part of the reason for the rewrites and Grrm was on their side. This doesn’t completely make sense as it seems Emma and Olivia liked Sapochnik’s ideas… but then again Hess was the one who made Larys a creep and Daemon a domestic abuser, so maybe they were protesting those elements, which I’m sure she would have tried to make worse? Because I honestly can’t see Matt sticking his neck out over simple disagreements about the characters, even the DV stuff, he is on record saying that at the end of the day, he does what’s in the script. He gives opinions/suggestions and improvs some things as any actor does, but he seems pretty willing to do whatever. Like I just don’t think he cares that much about HOTD, beyond his job as an actor. I can’t see him raising a stink about the script unless it was truly egregious and Emma and/or Olivia were legitimately uncomfortable with something (and I don’t mean uncomfortable as in Olivia wants Alicent to be a lesbian and is mad she’s not, I mean there’s some really serious sexual or domestic violence). Idk, that’s just the vibe I get from him based on interviews, but maybe he’s more invested than I think. I do agree that Olivia is probably too invested in her headcanons and is arguing with the writers about it, but I think that might be a separate issue from the alleged meeting the three of them had with the execs. I guess I just err on the side of believing that HBO would absolutely be willing to put an actress in an unnecessarily degrading scene for shock value (and that Hess would insist on these scenes as part of her “men are evil” pseudo-feminist agenda) considering GOT’s history.

Look, I'll always be up front with you, nonny.

I'm completely open to being 1000% wrong on everything.

If Cooke was out there defending the sanctity of Alicent and Criston's relationship, cause, Hess wanted to ruin them, or ruin Criston's character. I'll gladly take my Katana, basket hat, and a bindle of food, and leave the village with my braid cut from my dishonor.

But from everything I've ever seen of Olivia Cooke through the years, I just don't believe she capable of something that selfless for the integrity of a show that she has made crystal clear that she does not care about. She's an activist first and an actress way down the list. Cooke would do anything to press her message, and I don't think that she'd go out of her way to protect a male role or character to the tune of fucking her entire career for the creative integrity of something she sees only as a stepping-stone.

From my prospective, as someone who deeply distrusts activists of any kind - for good reasons - I'd genuinely believe that Cooke was trying to defend Sapochnik and Hess's original creative vision of this being a tyrannical story of how patriarchy destroyed a Lesbian Romance. And that them going over the show runner's heads triggered the studio to bring in a ringer to completely dismantle that vision and bring the breakaway producers and cast to heel.

However, I do keep open and will entertain the slight - however small - idea that Hess had tried to ruin Criston's character and lean into that all the men on team green - all men in general - are evil. Just because, it seems that the studio acted by bringing in a third party to story edit after the alleged incident. And there is a possibility that they got Hess benched for the former head writer of "The Crown" who has experience writing character driven assembles about royalty.

But, like I said, I could be completely wrong. And I'll own it if I am ...

But I just don't think Cooke capable of falling on her sword. There is something incredibly angry and spiteful about her and the way she expresses her opinions and agendas, you can feel it. And I just don't think she's capable of anything but pushing her agenda and personal bullshit, not caring about anything or anyone.

As for Matt Smith ... look, I can't be objective about him. I've been a fan of Lily James for years and years, and he did something to that girl, something bad, and she's been running - hurting herself and others - to get away from it. And anyone who knows anything about her, knows that Matt Smith has everything to do with it. She ran all the way to Los Angeles, to the other side of the world, to get away from him. I don't know, so I don't comment ...

But I don't trust any story where Matt Smith stands up for women.

[atopvisenyashill]

(with no expectations or pressure intended) i hope you do post something about how the fandom is weird about dorne, bc even as segmented into little mini standoms as the fandom is, all the corners have their own brand of Being Weird About Dorne. sometimes even posts that discuss racist aspects of grrm's worldbuilding and lopsided povs will be weird and act like anti-dorne racism just doesn't exist within the narrative and so has no place in meta and theories

i’ve thought about it tbh because yes, basically every mini standom has their own specific weird opinion about dorne, like to the point that i will see the weirdest opinions On My Dash, just like a single line in otherwise fine meta and it makes me insane!!!! i get we all have our blind spots and hang ups and biases but it does feel like sometimes people will just go “george doesn’t characterize dorne well enough” and then that’s it. that’s all the reflection they do which is Crazyyyy because we get think pieces about every other ethnic group in westeros, every other house, but every time someone digs into dorne they get like 50 weirdos yelling at them. i definitely think i’d want more knowledge of the moors and the maghreb before i do something more in depth beyond bitching and specific character and scene analysis because it’s like - idk if you’ve seen that movie a thousand years of solitude but it’s really similar racism where it’s a one two punch of old school “the exotic and free east” with a very american “but don’t worry we all know middle easterners are white!!” that turns into this hellish pit of discourse lmao.

i think a really good example of that is oberyn - i have seen (again On My Dash, in the vs tag, we’re not talking show only locals we’re talking people who have read and reread this series) people say he’s white bc dorne is spanish (give me a fucking break), he’s “white coded”, he’s not bisexual, he has no redeeming qualities, he takes his “vendetta” over elia & her children too far, and all of this is said by people who will acknowledge that dorne isn’t fleshed out as much by the narrative bc of george’s biases. it’s a thing i call the raven reyes effect from my cursed the 100 fandom days, where fans will notice and rightly acknowledge a character of color is written in a lopsided way compared to the white characters, but then go out of their way to not engage with that character the way they do white characters. it is. frustrating to say the least.

[daylander1000]

I know a lot of people like Rhaenrya and Daemon but I don’t for many reasons, the biggest reason is that daemon groomed rhaenrya and ruined her reputation, but people think he loves her which is so funny to me. Rhaenrya has shown signs of being a spoiled brat many times she’s the time that doesn’t like the rules and doesn’t follow them but expect everyone else to do so, being the queen doesn’t give you freedom you carry the burden of responsibility of the seven kingdoms and Visersys told her that and how daemon isn’t a person who can handle that, but what does she do? Fucks him at his wife’s funeral and then marries him, and people are surprised that he choked her?? BFFR! I’m not the biggest fan of alicent but I understand her way more, she didn’t want to be queen she just followed her father’s choice and truly did believe rhaenyra would have been a great queen but rhaenyra then lied to alicent which gets her father fired (but he kinda deserved it) and even when Rhaenyra gave birth to her sons, she’s putting her self on a ship of thin ice. If ONE of Alicent’s kids came out with Brown hair even if that’s alicent’s hair color y’all know they would’ve killed her. I don’t like the double standard that Rhaenyra and Daemon and Visersys have, I’m not a team green or a black but I have more respect for the greens, not saying aegon would be a great king because he’s not but Rhaenyra isn’t the best option either. Another thing is if Viserys never was going to name aegon as king, why did he remarry and have more children if he was always going to up hold Rhaenyra?? I love Rhaena and Aemond I feel like if they were betrothed then this whole greens and blacks would end, but of course Daemon can only think of himself and a way to make his way to the throne. He doesn’t care for his family the way people think he does, he wants the throne. Wish more people would wake up and realize that. Sorry for the rant but I had to let that out.

Lol, no problem.

I didn't read F&B so I don't get the fandom war. I'm not on any team myself. If I had to pick one though, it would be the greens. Mostly because I nearly always root for the underdogs, but also because you sort of just have to go with the lesser evil if forced to choose?

I liked Rhaenyra well enough until she called for Aemond to be interrogated and fussed about her arm being scratched while Aemond was sitting there maimed for life with eye stitches.

Viserys... I think he just wanted a young girl in his bed immediately and didn't want to wait the two years for Laena to turn 14. Better the child you watched grow up alongside your daughter than some random 12 year old your cousin is trying to set you up with.

I don't have much thoughts about Daemon other than that he reminds me too much of Damon from vampire diaries. Lol. He killed his wife, got exiled for being creepy with his young niece, and then ran off to Pentos with an actual child who was 3 years younger than Rhaenyra. Like, I just imagine Laena as this girl who probably saw him as her father's cool friend from their whole Crabfeeder war, so yeah, he's just some pedo groomer wife-killer imo.

I get the need to rant. After they killed Vaemond, I was livid, but it helps to just avoid interacting with the parts of the fandom you don't enjoy. There's something about GRRM books that just brings out the worst in some people. I'm not into the whole "Targ nation"/ "Valyrian supremacy"/ "racial purity" thing, so I just stick to my little corner of AO3 and block the tags and the weirdos. 😅

Life is too short and precious to spend time being upset with shippers. HotD is not a show worth losing your peace over.

[silkiemae]

A Song of Storms by George R. R. Martin

A Storm of Swords by George R.R. Martin My rating: 4 of 5 stars Even though this took me forever to finish reading, I enjoyed this book a lot. The first two ASOIAF books were slow to me; they felt more like a political drama than an epic fantasy in my eyes. But here is where we finally get to a point where I'm not even bothered by politics because people are dying, and things are happening. This book is where everything seems to go absolutely crazy, and I am here for all of it. Granted, I will forever complain about the length of these novels but whatever. GRRM is a master at world-building. I am so impressed with how he manages to creep track of all of these characters and not even those who are featured in the stories but the generations of dead Targaryens that are mentioned and who all have similar names. His notes must be insane. I would love to glimpse them. If there is one thing I'll say about GRRM is that he knows what he's doing when crafting a world. I usually find myself with dozens of questions about the world authors have built, but GRRM has thought to answer them all. I didn't take notes while reading this, so I will briefly give my thoughts on each POV character. Jamie- I'm biased because I've come to these books after watching the show, so I know how Jamie grows and eventually comes to be one of the most favored characters in GOT, so it's no surprise that reading his chapters made me come to like him. I liked reading his and Brienne's relationship a lot, and I feel like it's a good example of enemies to friends to lovers(if they go that route in the books, like I'm praying). I love GRRM's sense of karmic justice, also. Like when Jamie once said, 'give me a good clean death any day' rather than wanting to live as a cripple, he gets his sword hand chopped off. Like, ah, poetic justice. Catelyn- I felt so terrible for her throughout the entire book. Every choice she made was to try and get her family back together; it went terribly for her. It's a shame they cut Lady Stoneheart from the show. I wish we would have gotten POV chapters from Robb; I would've liked to know what he was thinking through all of this. Also, curious as to what's going to happen with Jeyne Westerling now. Arya- My girl is finally going to Braavos. Her whole journey was also terribly sad. She's just trying so hard to get back to her mom, only for her to die two seconds before she gets there. But I'm excited to see her grow when she meets the Faceless Men. Tyrion- He had some of the best chapters throughout the book. Joffrey's Wedding, the trial, the trial by combat, his escape. All of that was chef's kiss. The trial was beyond infuriating. How do they expect him to defend himself if he's not allowed to speak? Too bad lawyers weren't a thing back in medieval times. Davos- I feel like this man is just hanging on by the skin of his teeth. He's just trying so damn hard, lmao. Sansa- Went from one house of horrors to another. Poor girl. I hope she learns to fuck some people up soon; I'm sick of reading about women getting beat up. Jon- Lord Commander of the Night's Watch at age what 16? Jon is the Chosen One of GOT. I honestly wish it was Dany, though. I really appreciate that GRRM doesn't shy away from harming his characters, and how it affects them is realistic. He doesn't have them heal from it two seconds later. Like Jon is in pain through the WHOLE battle at the end. Also, the whole Ghost thing. How in the hell was he cool with just telling Ghost to go back to Castle Black? I was afraid he would never find his way around the whole book, and when he showed up at the end, I cried. Bran- I mean, I don't really care about Bran at this point. He's just bouncing around, possessing Hodor and his wolf occasionally. Samwell- Again, I don't care about his chapters much. They're OK but not my favorite. Dany- Khaleesi was my other favorite POV throughout this book because I am such a SIMP for the mother of dragons. Six chapters are not nearly enough for me. I want an entire book with POV chapters dedicated to Dany alone. I find her to be one of the most fascinating characters in the book, but she gets not nearly enough time. Here she's FINALLY doing some shit. Her dragons are big enough to at least burn some people alive. She gets her army of Unsullied and starts conquering the Free Cities, and just as I was starting to think that Dany sucks at being a Queen, she finally got the picture and decided to stay and rule. So I'm excited to see how she does. I'm excited to see GRRM's actual vision for her. (but I'm salty af she's not showing up again til book five, and GRRM is taking nine thousand years to release the others.) I loved how her way to punish Jorah and Barristan was to literally make them wade through shit. Like same, girl. LIKE, COME ON, BRUH. I WANNA KNOW IF DANY IS GONNA WIN IN THE END, OKAY??? View all my reviews

[esther-dot]

apologies in advance for the length. like grrm, i need a good editor.

hi there,

i just read your answer to another anon about abuse victims. it was dm’d to me by someone who admired your answer. i admired it too, but i must admit, when you said something along the lines of, "despite their abuse, nothing is going to change the fact that they've done things that make me think badly of them," i let out a huff of exasperation, not directed specifically at you but at the whole situation, because what you said is exactly how i feel about cersei. yet, i've been jumped on, and lectured, and had aspersions cast on my character because i admitted that yes she was abused and it was horrible, but i still hate her for the things she's done and am not interested in feeling sorry for her or talking about her hardships.

i know you truly believe the sansa fandom cares about all abuse victims. i’m a sansa fan myself and i wish i could agree with you. but from what i've seen with my own eyes, time and again, it simply isn't true. i think the sansa and cersei fandoms care about a certain type of abuse victim, specifically "the beautiful woman who's suffered because of the patriarchy." i’m not knocking that in itself; those women are deserving of sympathy and understanding. but it doesn’t change the fact that there are some noteworthy differences in the sympathy extended by cersei fans to cersei, and the lack of sympathy they extend to other types of abuse-victims-turned-villains. (i speak of the sansa fandom and the cersei fandom interchangeably here, not because i think sansa is a villain, but because there's such a huge overlap between the two fandoms; there are exceptions, but for the most part, it's mostly all the same people)

an example: cersei, the beautiful able-bodied woman, can wish rape and torture on the septas who abused her, and that's okay, that's forgivable, yes it was bad but according to her fans they can still enjoy her as a character and feel sympathy for her because the patriarchy has been so, so mean to her. but, according to those same fans, when the disabled man wishes rape on the sister who abused him, well that's beyond the pale, that's repulsive, that's a bridge too far, he's forfeited any right to compassion and they don't care about the abuse he's suffered and neither should anyone else! that’s just one example of many that i could give.

don’t get me wrong, it's very fair to say, "i recognize that tyrion was abused and it's horrible, but i still hate him for what he's done and don't want to talk about his hardships." i feel that way, too. please don’t mistake anything i say here as me being a tyrion fan because hell no lmao. but if you’re going to say that, then you also have to accept that others are going to feel the same way about the villains you do like, and those people shouldn’t be shamed for it or automatically have bad motives assigned to them. not everyone who hates cersei is a misogynist. many of us are simply people who rightly hate cruel, selfish, abusive rapists, which she is, and her sad past doesn’t change how we feel about her.

my point - and i do have one - is that there are huge double standards from all parties involved, and if cersei's fans and defenders truly think they’re not just as guilty as everyone else of being hypocritical, they’re demonstrably wrong. 

i anticipate that there will be many who read my comments and protest "well, this person needs to understand that we're defensive of cersei because she gets so much hate from the fandom" and so i’ll say upfront that, one, i already know and understand that, and two, i still think it's a poor excuse. do you honestly think dany fans aren't defensive of her because of the very vocal, relentless hate she gets from some parts of the fandom? do you think tyrion fans aren't defensive of him because of the ableism he receives? and besides, since when did other people being hypocritical and behaving badly make it okay for us to be hypocritical and behave badly? it doesn't. other people behaving badly doesn’t mean we’re not responsible for controlling our own behavior. we’re not children.

I am so sorry that people hopped on your posts and called you that, anon! I think it’s the nature of the internet that we all feel much freer to be jerks, but the ASOIAF fandom always dials things up to eleven. I understand your frustration that people didn’t give you the benefit of the doubt and try to understand what you were saying. I appreciate the fact that your anger didn’t override all your humor when writing this ask. I did LOL over Martin needing an editor because I have said many times that I wish he’d worked with one he trusted from the beginning so he’d have told them his endgame and they could have helped him prune things before he let certain branches grow out of control. Alas!

I am at a loss as to how to respond to this ask though because while I believe you that individuals have treated you badly, agree that not liking certain villains says nothing about your character and that harassing other fans is wrong, I still strongly disagree with your conclusion about the Sansa fandom.

I understand if this was more of an opportunity to vent your feelings rather than an opening for a conversation, but I went back and forth on posting this at all, because implications of this ask could be so deeply offensive, but I finally decided I would only if I pushed back against some of this. Not with the expectation of changing your mind, I think an experience like yours would prevent anything I can say from altering it, but all the same, I will share my perspective.

Let’s begin where we agree.

it's very fair to say, "i recognize that tyrion was abused and it's horrible, but i still hate him for what he's done and don't want to talk about his hardships." 

This is a good statement. Sansa fans in my corner of the fandom rarely write meta on Tyrion, but I did say this a year ago when asked about our fandom double standard/not being sympathetic/talking about his abuse:

If I ever were to write about Tyrion, I would have to write about the abuse he suffered. Typically, I only mention him when writing about Sansa, so I’m focusing on the threat he is to her/the North, rather than considering his perspective. So, yes, it’s all very one note, but that’s because I’m not even trying to represent his side. And of course, there’s the fact that the fandom as a whole habitually faulted Sansa for not being happy with her fate, rather than acknowledge her perspective. But, I agree that (just as I do for Cersei), we are intended to feel sympathy for him. (link)

So, I feel like you’re trying to argue that my fandom is bad because we don’t do something that I, and several in my circle, have previously said is part of writing about Tyrion. In fact, reading your ask and then my old post, I think I’m probably more sympathetic to him than you are? I don’t judge you for it, I don’t care if you like Tyrion or if you like Cersei, I’m just pointing out that my experience in the Sansa fandom and the conclusions I have come to based on that experience are very different from yours. The linked post was received very well by my circle, so you’re trying to use something against us that has little merit in my eyes.

Martin writes his villains with the intention of explaining why they function as they do rather than leaving them as one-dimensional caricatures. The other day I tried to explain to another anon with similar feelings to yours why it is easier for me (and I’m guessing many Sansa fans) to engage with content sympathetic to Cersei even though we can’t do the same for other villains:

When I think about what I’ve seen written about Cersei and Lysa, it’s  trying to push against the fandom, and even against the author at times,  and say, “these women deserve sympathy too. It doesn’t change who they  are, but their past should allow us to see their humanity.” Sympathy is the end goal. My issue with the fandom at large is that they go further and want to use sympathy  to argue something else, want to move, say, the Hound from one role and  shift him into another. Suddenly, sympathy means pretending he didn’t  assault Sansa, he wasn’t a threat, she didn’t think he might kill her. I  don’t feel like it’s more important to sympathize with Cersei than the  Hound, I just don’t have an issue with sympathizing with her when that’s  all anyone asks, but I do have a problem that half the fandom rewrote who the Hound is because they sympathized.  (link)

It isn’t so much that I care more about pretty women than disfigured men that makes me happily read about Cersei and not other villains (I don’t really write about her either), but that, discussion of her is always with the underlying understanding that she is a villain. However, the Hound, Tyrion, and many other characters are removed from that category by the fandom. To speak of them as such is deemed controversial even though the author himself has designated them as such. I don’t consider this a tit for tat with the rest of the fandom, I try to ignore them, I say this because my fandom and the ASOIAF fandom at large are functioning in two different worlds, doing two totally different things when talking about these characters, in pursuit of two radically different goals.

I can sympathize with villains, that is what I am doing when I talk about Lysa, Cersei etc. The context (our understanding of their roles and what the author is doing with these characters) and the goal of our posts matters, so you can understand why in this fandom, I don’t feel free to engage with Tyrion or Hound sympathetic content because that is typically coming from people who romanticize them and their actions, even assault. We can argue about the wisdom of Martin making Tyrion a villain, but recognizing that I am someone who operates with the understanding that he chose to do that, while the fandom actively denies it, goes a long way in explaining the disparity in treatment you’ve found. And yet, in spite of this disagreement, I don’t harass those fans, that’s a gross thing to do. I simply choose to stay in my own corner and not talk about him except when he comes up in relation to Sansa. If any Sansa fan wants to do more, great! But I’m happy with my choice there.

I don’t remember the specific phrase, but there’s an idea of charitable reading in which, instead of jumping on things and misinterpreting them, we really try to understand what was said and view it in the most sympathetic light possible. That is what my first anon was wishing we would practice more of in regard to the series, and you are asking that we also practice this with our fellow fans. I think you both have a good point, and I will try to do that. I can have my strong negative reaction, set it aside, and then try to focus on the writer’s intent as a distinct thing from which of my buttons they pushed. This too is something we would agree on because it’s the treatment you are asking for. Sansa fans in the past didn’t read your thoughts charitably and you suffered harassment for it. Instead of understanding that Cersei is an awful person and you don’t like awful people, they said you are an awful person and that’s why you don’t like her. Of course you object! Unless you were being misogynistic in your criticism of her, that’s unfounded.

However, this is where I take exception to your ask. Just as you do not wish to be called a misogynist for hating Cersei, I do not wish to be called ableist for reaching my limit with Tyrion.

Now, you didn’t outright call me ableist, and maybe you didn’t even mean to imply it, but you indicated something was off about us sympathizing with Cersei, not Tyrion, by first saying we like a “type” of victim, and then the way you juxtaposed able-bodied and disabled here:

“cersei, the beautiful able-bodied woman, can wish rape and torture on the septas who abused her, and that's okay, that's forgivable, yes it was bad but according to her fans they can still enjoy her as a character and feel sympathy for her because the patriarchy has been so, so mean to her. but, according to those same fans, when the disabled man wishes rape on the sister who abused him...”

I wouldn’t even say I truly hate Tyrion (some fans do), but I certainly emotionally disengaged with him in ADWD, and it really feels to me that you’re saying that although you’re not a Tyrion fan either, the way we aren’t Tyrion fans is worse. Obviously I object to that. You know before I say anything else what I’m going to say, as you too are a Sansa fan, but I’m still gonna say it because I can’t let this sit in the ether unchallenged and I am baffled by the insinuation (that I feel you made, perhaps that was not your intention?)

It is only rational for a Sansa fan to read ASOIAF and think,

“Well, I don’t like that this little girl was forced into a marriage with an adult and he wants to have sex with her”

or

“I don’t like the fact that if Sansa were to have sex with him she’d likely get pregnant and then be killed but he hates her for not returning his sexual interest even though he knows she is way too young”

or

“I don’t like the fact that he resents her even though anyone would have a hard time coming to love a family member of someone who killed their family--he knows this--and yet!”

… you get the idea. If any other man was in that position we’d be pissed about it too. It’s normal for fans to view everything in terms of how it impacts their fav, and Tyrion is a specific threat to her. Not because he is particularly evil, but because marrying Sansa to a Lannister was an attempt to use her body against her family, her people, against herself. I’ve mentioned this many times before. Not having sex with Tyrion is a way to protect the North and her own life; therefore, Tyrion’s sexual interest in her is a threat. As a Sansa fan, I get angry.

It is part of the story that other characters are ableist and view Tyrion as far worse than he is (although Sansa recognizes that he treated her better than others), and it’s a dark kind of joke to have Lysa talking about how awful he is although we know that Tyrion intervened to protect Sansa, didn’t have sex with her because he knew she didn’t want to even when she was prepared to do so, and that it is Lysa herself who later tries to kill Sansa! Clearly, the formerly beautiful victim of the patriarchy is painted as far worse than the man their society vilifies. I’m definitely sensible to this. As a Sansa fan, I take that to heart.

And yet, I hardly think it means anything bad about a person that they say, “you know what, Tyrion wanted Sansa’s birthright, he wants to have sex with this little girl, I don’t like that.” It has nothing to do with ableism,  everything to do with making a moral judgment on the very reasonable grounds of objecting to kid x adult relationships. Do we like this behavior or not? Obviously how he is  treated by his family explains things from his perspective, and we can feel for the man who wants love, that moves me, but it does nothing to change what his wants mean for Sansa.

Also, maybe part of the reason why your ask seems totally disconnected from my experience with Sansa fans is that, I’m not in the Sansa fandom at large. I’m in a little corner of the Sansa fandom that dislikes adult men who lust after little girls. That means I don’t interact with BNFs (except that stumpy fucker, you know the one 😉) as they are or support those shippers, I have all those ship tags filtered, and I’m repulsed that the fandom has so normalized this behavior that objecting to it is what gets you ostracized, not the other way around. This isn’t Tyrion specific. I don’t like the Hound, Jorah, Rhaegar, Littlefinger, Drogo...there are too many to list, basically, I don’t like it when adult men have a sexual interest in little girls. Cersei was never presented as a sexual predator for Sansa, making her villainy easier for me to stomach.  Maybe that is insufficient explanation for you, but I think it is very understandable why my reaction to her is distinct. And, I would ask, grant me (us) the fairness you want for yourself. Read our feelings with the same openness to understanding you deserve. Because, if you deserve it (and you do), we deserve it too.

If I can understand that you can’t emotionally engage with Cersei because of the awful things she does, you can understand why I can’t engage with Tyrion because of the dark point he reached when he, not only did the above, not only wished for Cersei to be raped, but said he wanted to rape her. "And the only reward I ask is I might be allowed to rape and kill my sister." (ADWD, Tyrion VII). I’ve said before this villain arc isn’t something I would have ever written, but Martin did, and fans are allowed to dislike villains based on their villainy. You agree with me there! And yet...there was an implication that your hatred of Cersei was pure, where my disinterest in Tyrion is flawed. I think that’s silly.

If we’re both willing to recognize that we can hate these characters for their actions, that we have reasons other than being crappy people for disliking specific villains, we can then take that understanding and recognize that we have different triggers, and we can simply disengage with each other’s content without fabricating reasons for why the other person feels what they feel when the reason is right there.

Of course, perhaps you didn’t mean to imply we’re ableist, maybe you meant to say that we don’t care about male victims, only the plight of ASOIAF women. I wrote this the other day too:

But something for people who share your concerns to remember is that, the discussion of how women are treated in Westeros interests a lot of us so we hone in on that more than specific acts of violence. It isn’t that we think their trauma is more important exactly, it’s part of a discussion  overall that we’re interested in. The series is quite violent, most characters have suffered violence, but I think our corner likes to talk about the suffering of women, specifically, likely as an extension of our real life concerns. I don’t talk about the physical abuse Sansa suffered as much as I do her forced marriage. That’s objectively weird if I were interested in weighing suffering against suffering, and deciding who has the greatest trauma, but it’s a specific kind of terror for women to lose bodily autonomy, to be married off or forced to have children or forced to undergo an abortion on the whim of the man who happens to be in charge of you at the time. I’m guessing that’s why certain forms of abuse/trauma preoccupy us. We’re interested in a larger conversation that drives some of what we’re examining in ASOIAF. (link)

So...it isn’t that I don’t care about the male characters or the abuse they suffered, but the discussion about these victims fits into different themes and one theme is something I’m drawn to. My fandom has talked about how certain women have sexually abused men, so it isn’t the case that our interest has impacted our ability to recognize their wrongs or that we have neglected them altogether. And we have also talked about age differences and power imbalances in relationships in which a man is the victim. We’ve actually been called misogynistic because we’ve condemned certain female characters for how they abuse others, so truly, this isn’t something we’ve ignored! It’s just for some of us, Martin’s discussion of how women are used and abused by Westeros is of particular interest so we write about it more.

I realize I may have honed in on the specific word choice rather than grasping the whole picture. Perhaps your intention was to point to all these things about Cersei as a way of describing Cersei’s privilege? The privilege of certain villains in-world, and to suggest that we fans have unwittingly been suckered with some combo of superficiality, reverse sexism, and ableism? Well, if this is truly a matter of privilege, and that is actually what we’re looking to, then why must I sympathize with Dany rather than her victim? In comparison to Mirri, she is  privileged. And if that is what is “right” according to the fandom, to prioritize Dany’s feelings over Mirri’s life, why mustn’t I do the same for Cersei? Trick question! I’m not doing that with Cersei. I do sympathize with Tyrion (her victim), so the real question is, why is it fine to do that with Dany?

I only mention Dany because of this:

"well, this person needs to understand that we're defensive of cersei because she gets so much hate from the fandom" and so i’ll say upfront that, one, i already know and understand that, and two, i still think it's a poor excuse. do you honestly think dany fans aren't defensive of her because of the very vocal, relentless hate she gets from some parts of the fandom?

And I take exception to this because we accept that Cersei is a villain and acknowledge her crimes. The fandom isn’t doing that for Dany and have conveniently labeled criticism of her as hate. To me, this is the same thing as labeling my statement that the Hound assaulted Sansa as hate. Sure, his fans don’t want me to, but he put a fucking knife to her throat and threatened to kill her. He did. So when show fans call Dany a monster, a mass murderer, they’re saying that because she is. D&D made her do that, made that comparison. And if we’re talkin strictly bookly, it isn’t hate to say,

“hey, when this white woman burned alive a rape victim whom her husband enslaved, idk fam, maybe that means she’s not a hero”

or

“ya  know, we all say Martin is a pacifist, maybe he doesn’t want us to   support Dany’s war campaign that leads to the rape/death of numerous people and is funded by slavery.”

Yes, of course people who don’t want to believe Martin will write Dany as a villain dislike us for saying this and call everything we say “hate,” but isn’t this us refusing to be blinded by her pain, blinded by her beauty, blinded by her privilege and saying, nah, this is bad. And, what is objectively worse, an author who says that shit is part of a hero’s journey, or an author who says, this is the descent into darkness? Is it actually hate to insist he didn’t intend us to defend her actions?

Confession, I sympathize with Dany too, but I don’t need to write about that because everyone does. What people don’t do is admit that burning people alive is bad, that overseeing the slaughter of children is bad, that making money off of slavery is bad...I mean, I could be missing the forest for the trees, but I just don’t buy that the rest of the fandom’s attitude is about treating these characters fairly based on any sort of objective standard.

It seems to me the issue is that how we (my part of the fandom) treat these characters is not based on how the fandom values them. It seems to me that the fandom is upset that some of us don’t fall in line and condone or condemn these characters the same way everyone else does. But seeing as I’m not claiming villains aren’t villains or redefining morality in order to insist certain actions are heroic, I’m not the one who doesn’t have a clear standard here. And I say that because I think you’re the anomaly by actually viewing Cersei and Tyrion as both villains and hating them both. When I was roaming the wilds it looked to me as if most of the fandom actively defends and sympathizers with villain behavior (without acknowledging it as such) except when it comes to Cersei. Hence the rise of people interested in saying, uh, maybe there’s humanity here too?

I’m not saying that’s your stance on Dany btw, I have no idea if that was your feeling about what we say regarding Dany or you were just quoting others, but making the comparison with what we do with Cersei and what they do with Dany doesn’t work for me. Cersei is a villain, I sympathize with her. Dany is a villain, I sympathize with her. I don’t like the fandom because they say Cersei is and don’t, and Dany isn’t and they do. It isn’t hate for me to say, oh, her dad wanted to turn KL into a funeral pyre to become a dragon and Dany ended book one walking into a funeral pyre to get dragons. Wonder if that means something. I know what that means. Neat! 🫣 If Dany fans are receiving sexist hate the way Sansa or Cersei or Cat fans do, I condemn that wholeheartedly, that’s disgusting. I’ve blocked hundreds of accounts and still get messages taunting me about Sansa getting raped. This fandom can be horrifying, but reasonable interpretations, even if the conclusion is something you disagree with, aren’t the same thing at all as harassing other fans or needless character hate.

On a personal note, I had a very strong negative reaction to this ask because while I do want people to be free to present alternative interpretations of characters and scenes, and I invited my previous anon to talk about other villains more sympathetically than some in our fandom, I did not intend to say it is open season on Sansa fans. I had to ignore the ask for a while because I realized, it probably wasn’t intended the way I took it, but even when I finally wrote a response, I had to delete it. I had to do that a few times. 😂 My point is, I did make an effort to actually engage here rather than dismiss your point out of hand. But I have to say, I feel so strongly about this issue, if I saw the Sansa fandom the way it sounds like you do, I wouldn’t be part of it. Perhaps I have done too good a job of curating my experience (something I’m dedicated to), but from my perspective, this is the corner of the fandom that does take the issue of abuse seriously, to the point that we will condemn fandom favorites (Dany, Tyrion too--he is a favorite. I still consider myself a show fan because I got into GoT first so I had to squint at this ask and wonder if this is a “valyrian scroll” side of the fandom issue because the GoT fandom adores him, even Sansa fans like him!) in order to fairly apply those standards. I can’t demand people like who I like or hate who I hate. (The character I hate the most is Rhaegar--loathe him.) All we can ask is some consistent standard, and my part of the Sansa fandom has it. Saying that likely makes me part of the problem in your eyes, but it is what I believe is true. In my eyes, it seems like you’re equating things that can’t really be compared. Our context and goals when talking about these characters are totally different.

If this is a conversation you think there is anything to gain from continuing, please DM me so you can explain more about you thoughts on the disparity between how we treat victims in the story, or, if you write a take on a scene or character, send me a link and I’ll share it. Even if I don’t agree with your conclusion, I assure you, I have tried to resist the urge to hurl insults at people online in the past, and your message certainly reemphasizes the need to continue to avoid doing that. It is easy to assume the worst, and this is an good reminder for us not to.

Again, I'm sorry you had a horrible experience with Sansa fans, and that it left you with such a negative impression of the fandom. I hope you’ve found a little circle of the fandom (as I have) that is safe, caring, and fun. <3

in reference to this post

[the-thirteenth-prime]

Okay, but I can’t help but be bewildered by all of these people who think that Malenia would deliberately hunt down Radahn for some slight or because of sibling rivalry when she is one of the most passive, chill characters in Sekiroulsborne Ring history. I’m not even joking. You find the woman taking the longest depression nap ever and she only fights you because you’re invading her and her brother’s sanctuary. She only smacked the shit out of Godrick because he insulted her and then probably immediately curled up like a ball and whined like a weenus at her feet after she punched him in the nose. You hear all about Miquella’s designs to become a full god and to actually use his Empyrean-ness for something, but never a mention of Malenia’s other than ‘well she’s an Empyrean, too’. Like, she just has. No fucking designs to go change the world on her own. She’s more than happy to be her brother’s blade. Malenia’s a reactive character. She kind of passive. And that’s fucking great. I actually really love that, because not everyone has to be a protagonist, and you don’t have to be a protagonist to be a badass or change the world. Hidetaka Miyazaki and GRRM could descend from the heavens right now and tell me that it’s canon that Malenia sought out Radahn on entirely her own volition and I would call bullshit. You could hold a gun to my head and I would still refuse to believe that anything but a direct or active threat to her brother’s and/or the Haligtree’s safety would have driven her all the way from the fucking Consecrated Snowfield to Caelid.

Miquella is the chessmaster and Malenia just loves him and is happy to be here. Her three main interests are her brother, swordplay, and women, probably in that order. Miquella probably rants and raves about the injustice in the world and how much their parents suck and Malenia just smiles and nods along in complete agreement and wow, isn’t her brother the best? She loves him so much. He’s gonna be such a good full god one day and she’s gonna help him get there. What? Her own candidacy to godhood? Who cares--have you seen how awesome her big brother is? He is tiny but full of rage and hope and she loves him so much. Get out of my face before I snap your spine over my leg, Godrick.

Like, I keep having this image in my head of a meeting between the demigods following the Shattering, and it’s Morgott, Mohg, Radahn, Rykard, and Godrick all standing in a circle and screaming at each other (like they’ve probably been doing for the past two hours). Meanwhile Miquella is sitting in Malenia’s lap, reading a book and quietly planning his own overthrow of the status quo and future socialist empire, while Malenia’s just braiding his hair and yawning. Like, god, she could be helping her brother liberate the albinaurics or making out with Finlay right now. This is why they left Leyndell with a fucking sapling in a pot 1,000+ years ago and only go home for holidays.

Eventually she gets done with braiding and they’re still yelling, so Miquella just starts reading aloud and she hangs onto every word. Another hour passes and Miquella says he’s bored and that he wants to go to the fantasy version of Chuck E’ Cheeses instead, and Malenia just scoops him up under one arm and walks out. Radahn tries to stop her and she snaps his wrist without looking. They get fantasy pizza and come back to the meeting three hours later. Malenia won Miquella a giant stuffed butterfly in a ring toss game and swung by Caria Manor to give Ranni the leftover pizza before coming back. They’re still screaming aside from Morgott, who’s huddled in the corner crying. Malenia still does not care but does poke out Mohg’s one remaining eye when she catches him leering at Miquella. They decide to just go back to the Haligtree and it’s noon the next day before the rest of the family realizes they haven’t shown up for lunch.

Look, my point is that Malenia could not have been assed to deal with Radahn on normal circumstances, but he probably was talking shit about invading the Haligtree or making Miquella his political god-consort to his future ‘Elden Lord’,  and she just got the lesbian army assembled and was all ‘FUCK THIS GUY IN PARTICULAR’ all the way to Caelid.

[cappymightwrite]

What draws you to incest ?

*sighs* Ok, here we go. I'm a real card carrying Jonsa now aren't I?

Anon, listen. I know this is an anti question that gets bandied about a lot, aimed at provoking, etc, when we all know no Jonsa is out here being all you know what, it really is the incest, and the incest alone, that draws me in. I mean, come on now. Grow up.

If I was "drawn" to incest I'd be a fan of Cersei x Jaime, Lucrezia x Cesare, hell Oedipus x Jocasta etc... but I haven't displayed any interest in them now, have I? So, huh, it can't be that.

Frankly, it's a derivitive question that is really missing the mark. I'm not "drawn" to it, though yeah, it is an unavoidable element of Jonsa. The real question you should be asking though, is what draws GRRM to it? Because he obviously is drawn to it, specifically what is termed the "incest motif" in academic and literary scholarship. That is a far more worthwhile avenue of thinking and questioning, compared with asking me. Luckily for you though anon, I sort of anticipated getting this kind of question so had something in my drafts on standby...

You really don't have to look far, or that deeply, to be hit over the head by the connection between GRRM's literary influences and the incest motif. I mean, let's start with the big cheese himself, Tolkein:

Tolkein + Quenta Silmarillion

We know for definite that GRRM has been influenced by Tolkein, and in The Silmarillion you notably have a case of unintentional incest in Quenta Silmarillion, where Túrin Turambar, under the power of a curse, unwittingly murders his friend, as well as marries and impregnates his sister, Nienor Níniel, who herself had lost her memory due to an enchantment.

Mr Tolkein, "what draws you to incest?"

Old Norse + Völsunga saga

Tolkein, as a professor of Anglo-Saxon, was hugely influenced by Old English and Old Norse literature. The story of the ring Andvaranaut, told in Völsunga saga, is strongly thought to have been a key influence behind The Lord of the Rings. Also featured within this legendary saga is the relationship between the twins Signy and Sigmund — at one point in the saga, Signy tricks her brother into sleeping with her, which produces a son, Sinfjotli, of pure Völsung blood, raised with the singular purpose of enacting vengence.

Anonymous Norse saga writer, "what draws you to incest?"

Medieval Literature as a whole

A lot is made of how "true" to the storied past ASOIAF is, how reflective it is of medieval society (and earlier), its power structures, its ideals and martial values etc. ASOIAF, however, is not attempting historical accuracy, and should not be read as such. Yet it is clearly drawing from a version of the past, as depicted in medieval romances and pre-Christian mythology for instance, as well as dusty tomes on warfare strategy. As noted by Elizabeth Archibald in her article Incest in Medieval Literature and Society (1989):

Of course the Middle Ages inherited and retold a number of incest stories from the classical world. Through Statius they knew Oedipus, through Ovid they knew the stories of Canace, Byblis, Myrrha and Phaedra. All these stories end more or less tragically: the main characters either die or suffer metamorphosis. Medieval readers also knew the classical tradition of incest as a polemical accusation,* for instance the charges against Caligula and Nero. – p. 2

The word "polemic" is connected to controversy, to debate and dispute, therefore these classical texts were exploring the incest motif in order to create discussion on a controversial topic. In a way, your question of "what draws you to incest?" has a whiff of polemical accusation to it, but as I stated, you're missing the bigger question.

Moving back to the Middle Ages, however, it is interesting that we do see a trend of more incest stories appearing within new narratives between the 11th and 13th centuries, according to Archibald:

The texts I am thinking of include the legend of Judas, which makes him commit patricide and then incest before betraying Christ; the legend of Gregorius, product of sibling incest who marries his own mother, but after years of rigorous penance finally becomes a much respected pope; the legend of St Albanus, product of father-daughter incest, who marries his mother, does penance with both his parents but kills them when they relapse into sin, and after further penance dies a holy man; the exemplary stories about women who sleep with their sons, and bear children (whom they sometimes kill), but refuse to confess until the Virgin intervenes to save them; the legends of the incestuous begetting of Roland by Charlemagne and of Mordred by Arthur; and finally the Incestuous Father romances about calumniated wives, which resemble Chaucer's Man of Law's Tale except that the heroine's adventures begin when she runs away from home to escape her father's unwelcome advances. – p. 2

I mean... that last bit sounds eerily quite close to what we have going on with Petyr Baelish and Sansa Stark. But I digress. What I'm trying to say is that from a medieval and classical standpoint... GRRM is not unique in his exploration of the incest motif, far from it.

Sophocles, Ovid, Hartmann von Aue, Thomas Malory, etc., "what draws you to incest?"

Faulkner + The Sound and the Fury, and more!

Moving on to more modern influences though, when talking about the writing ethos at the heart of his work, GRRM has famously quoted William Faulker:

His mantra has always been William Faulkner’s comment in his Nobel prize acceptance speech, that only the “human heart in conflict with itself… is worth writing about”. [source]

I’ve never read any Faulker, so I did just a quick search on “Faulkner and incest” and I pulled up this article on JSTOR, called Faulkner and the Politics of Incest (1998). Apparently, Faulkner explores the incest motif in at least five novels, therefore it was enough of a distinctive theme in his work to warrant academic analysis. In this journal article, Karl F. Zender notes that:

[...] incest for Faulkner always remains tragic [...] – p. 746

Ah, we can see a bit of running theme here, can't we? But obviously, GRRM (one would hope) doesn’t just appreciate Faulkner’s writing for his extensive exploration of incest. This quote possibly sums up the potential artistic crossover between the two:

Beyond each level of achieved empathy in Faulkner's fiction stands a further level of exclusion and marginalization. – pp. 759–60

To me, the above parallels somewhat GRRM’s own interest in outcasts, in personal struggle (which incest also fits into):

I am attracted to bastards, cripples and broken things as is reflected in the book. Outcasts, second-class citizens for whatever reason. There’s more drama in characters like that, more to struggle with. [source]

Interestingly, however, this essay on Faulkner also connects his interest in the incest motif with the romantic poets, such as Percy Bysshe Shelley and Lord Byron:

As Peter Thorslev says in an important study of romantic representations of incest, " [p]arent-child incest is universally condemned in Romantic literature...; sibling incest, on the other hand, is invariably made sympathetic, is sometimes exonerated, and, in Byron's and Shelley's works, is definitely idealized.” – p. 741

Faulkner, "what draws you to incest?" ... I mean, that article gives some good explanations, actually.

Lord Byron, Manfred + The Bride of Abydos

Which brings us onto GRRM interest in the Romantics:

I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers... which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don't know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there's always been something in a twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has. [source]

I'm already in the process of writing a long meta about the influence of Lord Byron in ASOIAF, specifically examining this quote by GRRM:

The character I’m probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I’d fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into his own selfish, worst impulses. [source]

Lord Byron, "what draws you to—", oh, um, right. Nevermind.

I'm not going to repeat myself here, but it's worth noting that there is a clear through line between GRRM and the Romantic writers, besides perhaps melancholic "temperament"... and it's incest.

But look, is choosing to explore the incest motif...well, a choice? Yeah, and an uncomfortable one at that, but it’s obvious that that is what GRRM is doing. I think it’s frankly a bit naive of some people to argue that GRRM would never do Jonsa because it’s pseudo-incest and therefore morally repugnant, no ifs, no buts. I’m sorry, as icky as it may be to our modern eyes, GRRM has set the president for it in his writing with the Targaryens and the Lannister twins.

The difference with them is that they knowingly commit incest, basing it in their own sense of exceptionalism, and there are/will be bad consequences — this arguably parallels the medieval narratives in which incest always ends badly, unless some kind of real penance is involved. For Jon and Sansa, however, the Jonsa argument is that they will choose not to commit incest, despite a confused attraction, and then will be rewarded in the narrative through the parentage reveal, a la Byron’s The Bride of Abydos. The Targaryens and Lannisters, in several ways excluding the incest (geez the amount of times I’ve written incest in this post), are foils for the Starks, and in particular, Jon and Sansa. Exploring the incest motif has been on the cards since the very beginning — just look at that infamous "original" outline — regardless of whether we personally consider that an interesting writing choice, or a morally inexcusable one.

Word of advice, or rather, warning... don't think you can catch me out with these kinds of questions. I have access to a university database, so if I feel like procrastinating my real academic work, I can and will pull out highly researched articles to school you, lmao.

But you know, thanks for the ask anyway, I guess.