#i get the point of the deaths and stuff i mean like as narrative atonement whatever i get it . i am not a fan though | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

musical-chick-13 · 3 years

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*Imagine the heaviest sigh you’ve ever heard*

Okay. Now that I’ve calmed my rage a little bit, let’s talk about why I hate Raúl/Sofía as a pairing. I’ll start with the things that bug me the (comparative) least and work up to the things that I hate the most, because essay structures are the only thing I willingly retained from high school English class.

Because this show is what it is, a major trigger warning for discussions of suicide in regard to mental illness, non-consensual outing of queer teenagers, ableism and other forms of prejudice, and mentions of sex crimes against minors. If you need to block this post via tumblr savior or xkit, you can block the tag I always use when I discuss this show in writing, which is: mc13 watches ctrlz

SO. The first thing is that these two characters ending up together makes no narrative sense to me. I’ll get into characterization reasons in a bit, but from a purely interpersonal relationship standpoint, they never talk. They had maybe two sort-of conversations-that weren’t Raúl making fun of Sofía’s mental health issues or uncritically watching his friends do so-before Raúl complains that Sofía “never has time for him,” as if he’s entitled to anything from a girl, especially one he hasn’t consistently treated well up to this point. They work together on mystery stuff occasionally, but they don’t have any actual conversations about their relationship. There are no discussions of personal information or boundaries or expectations, which, especially if you are a person suffering from mental illness, is really fucking important.

From a characterization standpoint, Sofía’s primary trait is that she is a nice person. She’s ostracized by her peers, everyone makes fun of her for her mental health issues, she has very few friends other than maybe Luis, but when she’s approached for help with the hacker issue, she accepts. She helps even the students who have been nothing but horrible to her because it’s the right thing to do. She stands up for Luis time and time again, even when she has nothing to gain from the situation. She allows Isabela to lean on her for support after she’s outed, despite Isabela having been not-particularly-kind to her in the past. In season 2, she’s genuinely concerned with Dario’s and Ernesto’s safety, even though they have done nothing to atone or apologize for the way they’ve treated her. She protects her dad’s secret and doesn’t tell anyone else, not even her mom, just because she wants to keep him safe. This last one involves her keeping a promise to the point of unhealthy self-sacrifice because the stress of it leads to her making a suicide attempt and taking up self-harm. Sofía’s role in the narrative, as set up from the very beginning of the show is that she is a kind, caring girl.

Raúl leaked sensitive information about his peers, including: nude photos of Pablo having sex with Maria (which is. you know. child p*rnography), information regarding the private sex life of a boy who didn’t know he liked men (Gerry), outing Isabela-a trans girl who wasn’t ready to disclose her identity yet, revealing that Claudia had an abortion, was ready to out Luis (who was already a victim of truly horrifyingly violent bullying, primarily for being not stereotypically “masculine” enough), and telling everyone about Sofía’s dad-a secret so precious to her its seriousness was literally contributing to making her sick. And then, at the end of season 2, he’s made aware of the fact that Natalia’s life is in danger, and still only cares about his money. Dude literally doesn’t even spare a thought for this teenage girl who needs help.

Sofía has been friends with Luis for awhile. Raúl’s project (done by a guy she only spent, at most, a couple of weeks with) was one of the contributing factors in his death. So her friend’s murder means nothing to her now? Her sole focus, to the point of, need I remind you, unhealthy suicidal ideation was protecting her dad, whom she loves very much. Raúl’s exploits fucked that up, too. And still, it’s somehow not enough to stop her from being attracted to him. I...genuinely. Do not comprehend. He claims he “wanted to make things better” because “secrets are bad,” but there is NO WORLD where ANY of the things I’ve mentioned above could be seen as a positive. Sofía knows all this. At the end of season 1, she explicitly tells him “You’re going down.” Putting Sofía with Raúl goes against everything we know about her character. In order to make this ship work, her fundamental personality and values have to change.

And this brings me to my second major point of contention. This isn’t just some sort of badly-done Corruption Arc™. Sofía is a suicidally depressed, mentally ill teenager. There are very few characters in media who are written with explicit mental health issues, and even fewer who are not demonized for being “inherently violent and unstable” and/or killed off. Sofía is one of the few we actually have who gets to be mentally ill, kind, and alive. Her mental illness makes her empathetic. It’s part of her life experience and informs decisions she makes, but it’s not her whole personality. And most importantly, since she’s the protagonist and explicitly written to be a kind person with sympathetic struggles, we are supposed to want her to get better. She is not going to do that if she’s in a relationship with Raúl. He lied to her the entire time he was trying to date her. His idea of teenage courtship is taking a comment she said in the middle of a depressive episode completely out of context and turning it into a motto to ruin the lives of everyone around him, including Sofía and people who didn’t even do anything wrong like Claudia or Isa or Luis (or, hell, even Gerry, who at the time had just watched p*rn privately in his room on his private computer like lots of teenage boys do). This boy, who can’t even admit that what he did was messed up and wrong, does not know how to be in a healthy relationship. He won’t stop lying to Sofía if he thinks that’s what he needs to do to “keep” her. Sofía lost her virginity to this guy because of an elaborate con he was playing on her. And not that a girl’s (or anyone’s) virginity is The Most Important Thing Ever™ or that anyone should expect the so-called “loss” of it to be any kind of transcendental experience, but Sofía said at the party where everyone was playing the kissing game that she didn’t want to kiss someone she didn’t know. And when she did kiss Javier, she said she really didn’t have any experience. Sofía is a loner. She has very few friends and keeps to herself. Making the decision to engage in a physical relationship for the first time (or at all), for her, is a big deal. And everything that went into that decision was all based on a lie. You don’t forget something like that. Raúl calls Sofía crazy, before and after she knows he’s the hacker (which, I promise you, no mentally ill person is ever going to just...forget...about...). He tells her she’s the only thing he cares about and is continuing to exist for. And to make a teenage girl suffering from serious mental illness your emotional crutch? That is...such a bad idea and such an unfair, harmful thing to do I’m not sure I even know where to start. Neurodivergent people already get abused, gaslit, and forced into unrealistically harmful expectations on a regular basis. Sofía being with Raúl would be a nightmare in terms of her coping with her mental illness.

So, basically, a canon status for this ship can really only come at the expense of the identity and recovery of a mentally ill teenage girl. If we had more sympathetic mentally ill main characters, that would be one thing. But we don’t. If they portrayed this as an impulsive decision by Sofía that she grew to regret and use as a catalyst to get help (which...I thought was what the show was doing in season 1, but I can’t be right all the time), that would also be different. But after having them hook up again in season 2, it’s obvious that we’re not meant to view their relationship as an unhealthy coping mechanism on Sofía’s part. I could also see it as Sofía reaching out to the first available person who showed her attention because she was so lonely, but even that doesn’t work, because she has Javier (and, to an extent, Luis, and, later on, Isa and Alex-though that last one is...a little more complicated and I don’t have time to discuss it here). And far be it from me to police what people ship. I don’t believe that any fan of this particular pairing is a Giant Raging Ableist. But what I am concerned about is that this isn’t being talked about by anyone, at all.

Which brings me to the final, most frustrating part of this whole thing. IF YOU DON’T READ ANY OTHER PART OF THIS READ THE FOLLOWING. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART.

Given how purist fandom tends to be in liking “unproblematic” ships and how much people cry for positive and empowering representation...why do so many people ship Raúl/Sofía?

And the only answer I can come up with is...because Raúl is conventionally attractive. He’s a skinny, cis, light-skinned, cocky “bad boy” who rides a motorcycle and has messy hair and blue eyes. There’s no communication to point to or any kind of well-established previous relationship between him and Sofía, there’s not an equal level of self-destructiveness on both sides, there’s not a “secret Dark Side™” that Sofía’s always had that Raúl allows her to unleash (which...hoo boy, it’s bad optics to suggest that your mentally ill character is dealing with a Secret Evil Personality Buried Inside Them). Raúl doesn’t make any effort to better himself, and even sticks to his guns that he was “just trying to do the right thing :(” (and, as mentioned above, the last thing we see him do is selfishly scream over his money when a girl’s life is in immediate danger). The only thing that’s left is...that Raúl is conventionally attractive.

And, honestly, I think this is what it is. I think that’s the reason. The few times I’ve gone into the general tag (especially after season 1 dropped), it’s been almost nothing but thirst posts for Raúl. I’ve seen so many comments about how Raúl is “so complicated” and “oh, but he meant well,” but I haven’t seen any for Javier (who actually does mean well most of the time) or Natalia (who actually did become more complex as time went on) or Alex (who had a much more justice-driven goal than Raúl ever did). And I keep hearing about this supposed Amazing Chemistry his actor has with Sofía’s, which is of course, a subjective thing; but the chemistry™ defense curiously only ever seems to pop up in regard to pale cis so-called “attractive” guys. If Raúl had been plus-size or a woman or a darker-skinned man or disabled or neurodivergent or even just anything that wasn’t considered by biased society to be ““““conventionally attractive,”””” he would not be receiving the kind of love and sympathy and shipping preference that he is.

And you know how I know that? Every time, in every fandom (including this one) that even remotely-morally-ambiguous characters exist who are those things (i.e., dark-skinned POC, disabled, female, “““average-looking,””” etc.), everyone hates them. Maybe, if those characters are lucky, they’ll be ignored. But if they aren’t, then the fandom at large is picking them apart to criticize their place in the narrative, harass people who like them (which sometimes escalates to bullying the actors themselves on social media), and praying for these characters to die a slow, painful, gruesome death. They’re certainly not rooting for them as love interests. This ship is only as popular as it is because Raúl fits a predetermined standard of attractiveness.

And guess what, I’m fucking tired. The way fandom treats characters like this and ships like this tells me that the only thing that matters is how attractive you are. Everything people do and want and gravitate toward should be decided solely based on someone’s appearance. Your actions don’t matter. Your integrity doesn’t matter. Your values don’t matter. Only your level of attractiveness does. Being “““conventionally attractive””” gives you leeway to treat people like shit or be praised for doing the bare minimum. It’s seen as necessary for you to be liked, for you to be hired, for you to be successful, and for you to be seen as worthy of love. People excuse not only characters, but real-life young and attractive cis white male celebrities and musicians for heinous crimes all the time. People take appearance so seriously (especially in the entertainment industry) that being “hot” is frequently used as grounds for hiring. The whole thing is so incredibly shallow and rooted in prejudices such as ableism and transphobia and sexism and racism, and it is everywhere.

I was probably giving this show too much credit, but I thought back in season one, after the reveal that Raúl was the hacker, that the whole point was to defy the idea of “beauty” being inherently good. That sometimes the assholes or abusers or criminals or villains are conventionally attractive, and that doesn’t make what they do okay. Raúl, with his sense of entitlement and poor choice in friends and weird vibe around Sofía with trying to share headphones always seemed...off. I thought the point was that sometimes these sketchy Jerk Bad Boys™ don’t have some secret heart of gold, sometimes they’re just mean people. I (stupidly) thought the whole point was that physical attraction is not enough. That it’s a shallow thing to base a relationship on and only ends in disappointment. But season two showed that they just wanted to play all those concepts completely straight without an ounce of self-awareness. I have waited my entire life for some work. Any. Work. To have a message other than, “All that matters in getting what you want and living a happy life and receiving support from other people is being pretty.” But fandom keeps trying to shoehorn that narrative in every single time, so that’s the story we keep getting. And Control Z is no exception.

#the whole 'attractiveness above all even if they're meant to be awful' thing is also why I have beef w/d*rklina & r*ylo but. another day.#control z #control z spoilers #anti raul leon #anti raul x sofia #sofia herrera #ableism in fandom #prejudice in fandom #mc13 watches ctrlz #behold! a creation!#well folks it's finally here #I didn't want to put this out until I was done with the season just in case I needed to edit some things #which...yes that was a good decision because I did indeed. need to do that. god this show melts my brain (and not always in a good way)

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piccolina-mina · 3 years

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Our girl is thriving this season, but what the fuck is this Wyatt plot? I need your thinks about this one. I just knew you'd be six posts in on this by now. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

*sighs* For fk's sake, nonny. I don't even like talking about it because I get ranty.

What do you want me to say? Honestly, everything you can imagine I would feel about this, you're probably right. Because you know, I'm that b*tch always getting ranty about racism and stuff.

In short, I hate it. I think it's unnecessary, tone-deaf, random, pointless, lowkey offensive, and illogical. I legitimately find it triggering AF. And it doesn't make sense.

It's Unnecessary. There is a fraction of a chance that it will connect to something more significant, but even if that's the case, I'm confident that end result or connection could've taken place without this random reform racist Wyatt storyline. This series has struggled enough as it is properly utilizing all of its primary characters as well as providing them with decent screentime and arcs. It literally makes no sense to spend any of that time that could be used elsewhere on primary characters on a recurring guest star.

This isn't actually about Rosa, it's about Wyatt. Following up on the previous point, this specific arc caters to Wyatt. Revolves around Wyatt. Rosa is just a passive participant and vessel for this Wyatt storyline. So again, the arc itself is about a recurring character. At least when they did something similarly bringing back Cam to siphon time and arcs away from its main cast they found ways to implement it better and tied her to multiple main characters, so it wasn't a total waste.

The intended Wyatt/Rosa parallel is illogical. I know what they're intending to do with this storyline, drawing parallels between Rosa's experience coming back from the dead after ten years and trying to make sense of that and atone for things before and having this second chance to make things right and go down the right path and so forth and Wyatt losing his memory and his racist ways and having to reconcile with who he was to who he can be and all of that. I understand the concept they're trying to sell. It just doesn't work. Rosa's addiction is not equivalent to Wyatt's racism and violence. Her mental illness isn't either. It's dangerous to invite the comparasions with this storyline.

It's not successful redemption. True redemption is Wyatt knowing and remembering his actions and then trying to atone for them. It's not the convenience of amnesia wiping out his memory only giving him distance from his actions rather than really facing up to them. Because of the amnesia, to Wyatt, it's like he's hearing about another person. It's a cop out. He doesn't Actually have to do the work to redeem himself or atone or learn or grow. IF we're supposed to compare it to Rosa, she knew what she did and remembers and knows how she hurt her loved ones or whatever and she's actively trying to make amends for that as part of her program... a program that Wyatt isn't working or anything BTW.

They've contradicted themselves too much and are rewriting their own work and thus twisting everything up just to make this storyline work and it still doesn't. The timeline is all fkd up... what they established already all of it..The Longs were racist before Kate's death. Kate was racist. To suggest that a 10+ amnesiac blackout clean slates and erases all of Wyatt's racism is just wrong. As in it literally doesn't even make any sense. That is not how the amnesia works but they keep playing both sides of it trying to make it work. To sell us what they're claiming, he would have to have ALL of his memories wiped and have forgotten who he was completely.

Wyatt is behaving like he's shocked by racism in this town but they're also trying to argue that he was born into it. Wyatt was surrounded by racists and his friends come from racist families but he's acting like the very concept of him ever being ingratiated in it is some huge surprise. Wyatt looks affronted by things like Confederate flags. Wyatt being steeped in and surrounded by racism predates his amnesia period.

Kyle mentioned that line about Wyatt putting Whites Only on water fountains, and it sounded like a school prank. It also sounded like something Kyle was reminding Rosa of as if she was alive when that incident happened. Therefore, Wyatt was doing racist stuff before she died. Kyle would've been out of school by then so how else would he know that or why would he bother retaining it?

IF Wyatt and Rosa really were friends before (which holy retcon), then it makes no real sense that he would get psychopathically angry about his "friend" who does drugs getting into a car accident with his sister who does drugs. He would've mourned them both not jumped to severe racism and violence. But both he and Jasmine's family (who are MIA for all of this) did that... jumped to racism. So was Wyatt indoctrinated by his family or indoctrinated by message boards and shit? And if Wyatt and Rosa were friends than why was Kate such a racist bitch to Rosa?

They're backdrafting history JUST to make this storyline that we don't need with a character who isn't even a main one to work.

By not actually addressing that Wyatt has to unlearn racism and giving him an out through amnesia, there is the very realistic issue of that latent racism to come out at any given time. What happens when he's drunk? What happens when he's really angry at a POC?

Tying Wyatt's redemption with his clear affection for Rosa is again dangerous and irresponsible. I know we would all like to think that love is the way and through love it can heal racism, but that puts the responsibility on the disenfranchised person to be "lovable." Because if Wyatt WAS friends with Rosa once then that means the second Rosa did something unlovable she was just another *insert racist slur of choosing* right? It means that there's a possibility that if his feelings for Rosa dwindle or things go sideways in some way there's a chance that he could revert back to those racist ways. Loving Rosa(linda) and pinning all of his wanting to be better on her because of her makes his actively learning to be anti-racist conditional. Right now he's not doing this for him. He's doing it because of Rosa.

This entire storyline has placed the burden of forgiveness on Rosa, his victim. Without him ever having to actually make amends. It's this turn the other cheek BS that means there's nothing too big or harmful that can't result in forgiveness. It relies on Rosa and all that she represents to extend an inhumane level of mercy and grace to their tormentor and oppressor that was never once extended to them. It's such a consistent and problematic thing projected on disenfranchised parties that ONLY benefits the majority and makes them feel good. It's a narrative of meeting someone halfway when the playing field was uneven and the minorities are in actuality doing more work and making a longer trek. Halfway and meeting in the middle only works if both sides were even. They are not. It's the reaching across the aisle both sidesms when one side was clearly and actively more harmful than the other and than calling that peace and equity. It is not.

This storyline was meant to scintillate some viewers with this "what if" notion and teach others a meaningful lesson or be this poorly thought out gateway to exploring a complex storyline but it came at the expense of other demographics who actively have to deal with racist crap. And because of their problematic approach what is simply "just entertainment" to some who has the luxury of not having to think about it beyond that, is just gross and insanely triggering and uncomfortable to others. The others who deal with the reality of the subject at hand.

They wrote themselves into a corner with Wyatt so trying to dig him out of that no matter the cost or logic is absurd. This storyline could've worked better if Wyatt's racism didn't also include conscious, constant, extreme violence. But they spent all of this time making Wyatt the face of violent racism and now are trying to redeem him with no real effort. He wasn't just using slurs or making microaggressions. He wasn't some insensitive or aloof white person. He is a murderer. He has killed people. He technically murdered Liz in cold-blood. He knew she was in the crashdown when he shot up the place. The lights were still on. He beat up Arturo so badly he nearly killed him well after his friends even stopped. He attacked and intended to kill Rosa. And his handiwork was a constant thing, enough for Jenna to comment on it. And now we're supposed to ignore all of that because he has amnesia and has puppy dog eyes?

The fact that we can entertain (and for some succeed) Wyatt in all of his hot white dudeness' redemption after everything he has done slips into the inherent racism of society in the first place and is enraging. Because systemically and culturally and inherently society will bend over backwards to find a way to absolve a hot white guy no matter his actions. Flint and Noah couldn't get this type of redemption... So their intended storyline about evolving from racism STILL plays into the racist structures set up in society.

And because some people like it, there's this slippery territory of NO everyone who genuinely enjoys this aren't racist for enjoying it. But yes, this entire storyline and how it is playing out is at the very least racially insensitive.

In order for this storyline to work they would actually have to show Wyatt doing the work. They don't have enough time to dedicate to such a delicate storyline. It's been a C and D filler storyline with 45 second to a minute scenes. That's not enough time to explore this properly. We would've needed to see Wyatt returning home from the hospital. We would've needed to see Wyatt with his friends and it not feeling right and his discomfort. We would've needed to see Wyatt going through his yearbook and googling himself and the horror and disgust he felt. We would need to see this through his eyes. But we didn't have the time for that and we wouldn't have anyway because he's not a main character. We only get Wyatt through Rosa's eyes and they haven't even dedicated enough time to that for it to work. Rosa isn't conflicted at all. She didn't struggle to forgive him. She was reduced to a school girl with a crush and an insane level of grace and they just threw that at us with no buildup whatsoever. I don't know where Rosa's head is and how she got to this to place. Not really. And the only thing working about this is the chemistry between two actors who are allegedly dating so of course there's chemistry.

It literally feels like another instance of a favorite actor being shoehorned into a storyline just for the hell of it. Just because they didn't want to let Dylan go or something. Just to give him something else to do.

#anti wyatt long #rnm salt #roswell new mexico #rnm ask

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naynah-pinsence · 2 years

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Rewrite shower thoughts I gotta jot down before I forget:

I’m really glad I’m rewatching! It’s fun to remember stuff, and I think that I’ve thought of way more interesting things by revisiting the source. Recommend! I think I have to scrap chunks of my script bc I thought of new things, lol. That’s the process tho!

Gaito thoughts:

While I haven’t posted them all here, I have rewatched and taken notes on episodes 1 - 16 of Pitch. Unless I’m forgetting a line here or there. Gaito’s given reason for doing what he is doing is because he thinks the princesses and their pearls are pretty, and he likes pretty things. Like, he caresses the glass encasing Noel and ignores Lucia to her face when he’s got her in his grasp. He has the new shiny thing, but doesn’t have them all, so onto the next! This is a good villain! This is not my favorite type of villain, but still good. He’s downright cruel to the Dark Lovers, who literally live to serve him, and (if I’m remembering right) has no problem destroying the Black Beauty Sister’s sentience, which is effectively a death. Cold and goal oriented. Good, simple, and clear!

BUT. Once Sara enters the picture, Gaito’s villainy gets less direct? If I remember correctly, we don’t get the reveal about Gaito’s ~tragic backstory~ until maybe three episodes before he dies. Additionally, he chooses to die, which is framed in a redemptive light. The turnaround on what the audience is supposed to feel about Gaito is way too quick! (again, if i remember correctly). Before the narrative wants us to feel bad for him, Gaito is just a villain. And that’s fine! There’s nothing wrong with an antagonist just being a bad guy! Not everyone is Zuko.

I actually prefer the idea of a young, lonely, and misguided Gaito committing his sea-crimes out of a more explored backstory. I think it’s more interesting! It also gives Kaito more of an identity when it comes to Panthalasa. What does it mean for Kaito to be a lost prince to a dead kingdom? If I remember, it doesn’t really get touched upon ever? He just shoots light from his forehead when the plot needs it. Obvs, this kind of stuff is why I’m planning the rewrite in the first place! At this point, I’m using the backstory-driven Gaito, but what about Sara?

Sara thoughts:

Sara is an interesting character. She’s a pretty strong foil for parts of Lucia and Hanon as well as being a look at the “what if the good guy went bad?” genre. Her innocent trust was broken as a young teen, and her emotional outburst essentially destroys her home. She probably ended some lives. How does she deal with that? The anime only focuses on her relationship with Taro, so idk! Sara comes to hate humanity, which rubs off on Gaito when she meets and stays with Gaito. He does what he does for her. She seems to be completely smitten with him as well, but she is so focued on her hate that she uses him to enact her revenge. She also chooses to die with Gaito, as a form of atonement.

Sara has been so motivated the whole time that it seems a little out of left field for her to just give up at the end. Here’s an outline of an idea I’m playing with: At the end, Gaito does not die with Panthalassa. Gaito and the others (let’s be real, it’s mostly going to be Coco) try to convince Sara to live peacefully with the rest of them. Sara doesn’t. Sara is still angry. Sara isn’t going to quit. Sara shatters her pearl tear in defiance to the others, Aqua Regina, and her destiny as a mermaid princess. The shattered pearl would replace the search for soul fragments in Pure, and Sara would replace Michal and Mikeru as the main antagonists of Pure. They’d still be there, but maybe Sara would replace Fuku as the mastermind villain!

Quick Michal thoughts:

I don’t remember much about her except that she’s a good foil for Lucia, and also she’s kind of annoying? I’ll get to her character later, but man do I want her to be a good character. As it stands, I think it would be cool for her to be the villain for Aqua, as some kind of mermaid hunter. I’ll get there when I get there.

#mmppp rewrite #rewrite research #mermaid melody

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dutchdread · 3 years

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"The promised land, I think I can meet her there".

This article argues that it's unreasonable to see the line as a romantic gesture from Cloud, and that an alternative interpretation of the line as a comment concerning the impending doom is more likely. __________________________________________________

People try to use this to prove that Cloud wants Aerith ever since 1997. Now lets be clear here, this interpretation is patently absurd as soon as you think about it for more than 2 seconds. Do you really think for a second that Square would end the game with Cloud randomly telling Tifa as they're about to die, "you know what I want to tell you before we die? I don't love you and I'm glad I'm dying so I can be with another woman in the afterlife"? They wouldn't, this is the most unreasonable story interpretation I've ever heard, whatever that line is meant to mean, it wouldn't be that. Let's be clear here, the only people who think that this line is a genuine argument in favor of Clerith, are people who are already Cleriths. They see the line, and find it to be in line with their beliefs, and it is. The problem is that that's not how science is done. The question isn't whether or not a piece of evidence is in line with your point of view, it's whether it disproves the opposite point of view, which in this case it doesn't. (Also see: "The Wittgenstein test") It should be noted that arguments like these do not do Cleriths any favors, because in addition to proving nothing, they show something fundamentally problematic about the Clerith view of the story. In order to believe that this line in incompatible with a Cloti interpretation of the story, there are a number of tangentially related positions that you'd have to defend. 1: It's impossible to want to be reunited with anyone except if you love them romantically. 2: Cloud is an absolute asshole who would dump a woman he just had sex with, just as they're about to die. 3: Tifa is the worlds biggest simp. 4: This is how SE wants you to see their characters. In one fell swoop of a bad story interpretation you've undermined the importance of all other forms of love, you've undermined the importance of Clouds character arc concerning guilt. You've basically trampled on those who suffer from mental health issues by simplifying their issues into love cliches, you've made a villain of Clouds character, made a mockery of Tifas character, and revealed that you don't understand basic storytelling.

This is the fundamental problem with these arguments that cause many of us to develop a distinct distaste for Clerith as a ship, because when Cleriths attempt to argue in favor of it, it often comes in the form insults towards all characters and stories involved. You could have a story about Cloud loving Aerith, but if defending said story requires you to argue that Cloud would leave a girl with two children, one of which is dying, for no other reason besides being lovesick, then that does a disservice to the characters, the story, and the franchise in general. In a sense, by trying to defend Clerith like this you're insulting the entirety of Final Fantasy. Are there people who are assholes? Yes, are there people who get straight up "pumped and dumped"? Yes. Is that the sort of hero that SE is trying to show us? Obviously not. (for more information regarding this I advise you read: Insane hobbits article where he touches on the differences between clean and messy narratives) If SE wanted to end the game with Cloud proclaiming his love to Aerith in some way, they wouldn't have Tifa hanging on his side while he's doing it, and she wouldn't respond with "yeah, lets go meet her" like the universe biggest simp. So what is actually said? Well, I am not a translator, but as far as I can tell Japanese doesn't have pronouns and the line generally refers to meeting people in the promised land, which includes Tifa in the people going, and it's not specifically about Aerith. Is Aerith included? Of course, she's probably even the main person to meet there, she's certainly singled out as the person talked about by certain supplementary materials, but it's not a romantic sentiment, it's a tragic "we're about to die" sentiment, meant to convey a more generally positive message about being "reunited" with those who have died. The more likely paraphrasing for this scene is: "Cloud asks for an answer from the planet, the planet reveals the lifestream, Cloud and Tifa realize they're about to die. Cloud muses that he thinks he gets it now, they're all going to die and be reunited in the lifestream, both with each other, as well as those who have died, with Aerith being the most obvious and recent example." So is there any evidence for this? Well, for one there is the storyboard for the scene:

c「帰るぞティファ」 t「え？」 c「俺達も帰ってからやることがあった。まだ…あの山の向こうを見てない」 t「うん…帰ろう」

Cloud: "I'm going home Tifa" Tifa: "What?" Cloud "We had something to do after we got home. We haven't seen the other side of the mountain yet ..." Tifa: "Yeah ... let's go home"

"the other side of the mountain" is a reference to the mountains of Nibleheim, where Tifa believed the dead went. In other words, this is either a reference to them going home because they have stuff to do, which ties into the general idea that Cloud and Co had to live in order for their sins to be forgiven, as is evidenced by:

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.” ~Cloud in case of Tifa.

Or more likely it's be a reference to how they're about to die. Neither interpretation says anything about this scene being intended to be a romantic sign towards Aerith. Now, of course, the line was changed, and intentions can change during development. But if we're unsure on what the meaning of a line is, then going back to the storyboard is a pretty good way to get context.

Page 27 of the FFVII Ultimania omega:

"They're talking about", confirming that this is a mutual discussion, and not Cloud in isolation.

Page 203 of the FFVII Ultimania omega:

Provides context for the intended ideas the line is meant to convey. It calls back to earlier concepts concerning death not being the end, and is something Cloud and Tifa talk about together.

From: Final Fantasy Art Museum movie card ( https://twitter.com/dorobbongie )

These are not prescriptive canon, but descriptively they can give us some indication of how we're supposed to interpret the line.

Also reinforces the idea that the final line is meant as a more inclusive statement concerning reunions after death. Taking these points into consideration it becomes unreasonable to take the "I think I can meet her there" as a shipping line between Cloud and Aerith. If it were:

SE wouldn't have hung Tifa from Clouds hips.

Wouldn't have had Tifa agree with the idea.

Wouldn't have done it as the two were about to die.

Wouldn't have the storyboard refer to a shared journey beyond the mountains.

And most importantly, SE wouldn't have followed it up with Cloud commenting moments later that he's going to live in order to atone for his sins, and that things would be different now that he has Tifa. Clearly meeting again in the afterlife was more of an immediate danger rather than an immediate goal:

As Tifa looked away from the sky towards the ground, she was fearful of the future. However, Cloud beside her chose to smile gently. It was a smile that she hadn’t seen before during their journey. Cloud noticed her gaze and asked, “What’s wrong?” “Cloud, you’re smiling.” “I am?” “Yeah.” “It all starts now. A new…” Cloud looked for the right words. “A new life.” “I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.” “That’s right…” “But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.” “Why?” “Because I’ve always failed everything.” “That’s not funny.” “After this … I think I’ll be okay.” Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again. “Because I have you this time.” “You’ve always had me.” “What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile. -Case of Tifa; revised; released with ACC.

__________________________________________ thank you "thelifestream.net" for some of this information, as well as Kagesakura (https://otp-oasis-heavenxearth.tumblr.com).

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thessaliah · 4 years

Text

“Of Chaldea”: Lev Lainur Flauros theory

“Once, you were saved from the abyss of death by the God of a Different Star. Then, they too get to be saved once from the abyss of death. Don’t you think that finally makes things equal?”

“ I see. That is certainly fair. You are good at persuasion, as usual. “

The identity of the one of Chaldea is still an ongoing mystery. Some speculated Goetia in a journey of atonement. Others bring up a different kind of Solomon, whether from a Lost History, Pruned History or simply a Counter Guardian summon by the System to run a task. Solomon’s personality being nothingness mean that would not match Roman’s which was formed under special circumstances.Those theories are all valid and still possible. But I want to focus tho less about the power this man exhibits so far or the Independent Manifestation skill which doubtlessly points in direction of Goetia and Solomon and more about the identity of this person (although the ability could be explained somehow, I will refrain from speculating how for now). The person self identifies as someone from Chaldea. The identity of “from Chaldea” has been highlight a lot so is it truly a lie? Furthermore, while カルデアの者 could mean “person of Chaldea”, it also could mean “people of Chaldea.”

(Lev and Roman feature together in the first section of OP, before a crying adult Olga appears - Then Chaldea “Person” features in the end of the Opening, before a crying young Olgamarie appears).

The story of Fate/Grand Order is the story of Chaldea and its members. In the first arc of Fate/Grand Order, Mash Kyrielight and Romani Archaman were the focus of the growth center of the narrative (particularly Roman even if Mash had more screentime as the heroine to sell to the players, I think this was because FGO began as a story about Roman and Solomon, that was the outline Nasu later filled with other stuff). Nonetheless, it is the story of two Chaldea members. Or maybe a story with focus of Mash's connection to Romani. When part 2 started, with Roman out the picture, we are introduced to Mash's former teammates, the Masters of Team A, also known as Crypters, and until Wodime's death they had the focus. They too are members of Chaldea. Now we can think "now is Olga's turn" who like Team A was taken out early before she could shine. True, that's obviously the idea. But... when Chaldea was introduced in part 1, the featured members weren't just Olga, Mash, and Roman, Lev was among them too. Lev never got a focus in part 1, despite his occasional appearances as a mid-boss. He was shuffled out focus because he was one of the many that leads to Goetia. Goetia was the destination... but only for Roman to confront. By himself, Goetia truly has little connection with Chaldea's story or Olgamarie or the Crypters. Who does though?

Lev Lainur Flauros.

"But he's not as important" one might think. Actually, it's this kind of reasoning I had based on my indifference toward the character. Then I realized I wasn't being objective and evaluated what was introduced by Nasu before, during or after Part 1 to notice that Nasu considers him very important. Here's a small recap.

The first Fate/Grand Order related media, published before the game launch, Clocktower 2015, has Lev as the main character. Not our Lev, but one from apparently Mahoyo and Tsukihime setting. That Lev has three personas-egos (that have different preferences, ways to speak, etc), with "Mr. Flauros" being the one that uses the same pronouns and has a similar characterization to our Lev. The difference is that Flauros chooses to commit suicide in 2015. Nasu calls him "unsung hero" who saved those worlds. How can he be unimportant?

Then there's Epic of Remnants framing Flauros not as one-dimensional bad guy: Zepar bring up Flauros reported the Seraphix organization as one of the causes of "unobservable region" which made him being the one interested in the Animuspheres' dirty laundry. Secondly, in Salem, the Queen of Sheba summon to counter Raum was thanks to Flauros, it was Lev who connected Sheba with his SHEBA Lenses. He made those.

We also have the anime specials fleshing out Lev (and Olga!). His role in Fate/Moonlight Lostroom has him as a sympathetic and reasonable individual. Same with his scene with Romani when they talked about Mash in episode 0. Why bother humanizing him so much to FGO players?

Finally, he has a large role along with Olgamarie in Melty Blood Backalley Nightmare manga. I have tirelessly pointed out that manga has roughly some outline or setting up Cosmos in the Lostbelt, and the resolution of that had to do a lot with Olga talking to Lev and showing she changed. Once again, it hints Lev is the one who knows something fishy was with the family (not Goetia, but Lev), and this began over two thousands years ago. This was supervised by Nasu himself.

(The original main cast promotion: Master and Mashu are in another page).

Furthermore, among these, Moonlight Lostroom special was the prelude to part 2, and brought Olga back and gave her a large focus. But it also focused on Lev and his relationship with Olga. How they met for the first time. I assumed it was meant to give them closure, but re-watching it three things stand out. Lev asks a very important question to Olga and Olga does not answer him. The parallel of Olga-saying-goodbye-to-Guda and Lev saying goodbye to her; if first was not closure then second certainly is not either (and Lev leaves because he's going to be "busy"). Finally, Lostroom also brings back not just Lev and Olga, but Roman too (although we don't see his face, we see his outline of body and hear him talking). Unlike the Mash -who is likely Galahad, the “Observer” playing her role as is the only one who never spoke of dreams or is showed dreaming- Roman self-awareness of things and his chat about his dream give a hint that he is too a dreamer, like Guda, Lev and Olga. There's also a fourth dreamer whose label matches the meaning of Roman's name, although is not explicitly stated to be him, it’s easy to fill the blanks.

I need to make a pause here, if Waltz in the Moonlight Room explain the Moonlight Room is a Singularity, the mode in the OVA isn't about "Moonlight" connected to Roman but "Lostroom". I have a feeling the nature is closer to a Lostbelt and this is produced by Chaldea. In Waltz, Crane cannot send sounds or emotions to the past for a living Doctor Roman to see, but in Lostroom.... Roman awakes Guda in present-day 2017 where Guda is dreaming (or maybe his soul slipped into a simulation?). He's not the past Roman, the dream isn't taking place in the past, it's taking place in the present (2017) since the beginning. Why I stress this with Roman? Because if it's not the past and Olga and Lev leave to play their roles for part 2, Roman "disappears" after Lev walks away, except he doesn't, as I noted, he is there to awake Guda... but his body is not!

The last scene of the Lostroom is someone picking up a ring of the Temple. What if like Carter and Raum in Salem except a willing loan, it is Lev using Lostroom Roman body and thus gives him access to Solomon’s abilities if he has his blessings and permission (or perhaps Roman is dormant like the Clocktower Lev other two egos when one is in control. Furthermore, in part 2 we have an example with Sigurd and Surtr: Surtr could use part of his powers and saint graph via possession of the manifested Saber Sigurd, although it was not a willing deal it could very well foreshadow how Lev is using those powers and abilities)? Moments before that, priestess appeared when Guda awake and we know is connected to Olga. Lev and Olga leave the room (Roman’s body too disappears). Priestess and presumably Person of Chaldea appear next.

(Olga and Lev in the cover of that crossover manga, just to highlight their visual relevance to foreshadowing of part 2. Roman is also present in this manga, he has a small cameo, but the active actors from FGO are those two)

"But what about the game? This is all nice but what are the in-game hints?" I think that the way this person introduces himself is a huge hint. He claims to be a member of Chaldea (and as I pointed out when I started how he's calling himself could simultaneously mean "people of Chaldea" and not just a singular member, so it could acknowledge is Lev and Roman even if it's Lev who is doing all these things). The pronouns he uses all match Lev, the personality is similar to Lev too when he's serious and cranky instead of when he's relaxed. He mentions too about the different reactions he gets for having his “visage”, the human visage is a novelty but maybe is pointing out how Roman’s specific appearance is new. And it’s here, where I compare the “Goetia vs Lev” possibilities: while Goetia had the advantage of having Independent Manifestation which this man seems to have, so Nasu would need to explain hat if it’s Lev as I brought up in the beginning, then there’re other evidence supporting Flauros theory. The face isn’t new to Goetia, he once used it to trick Mash in Babylonia, but is new to this guy. Furthermore when he pretends to be Roman, his dialogue is placed with brackets, as if he’s “quoting” Roman speech. When Goetia pretended to be Roman or Solomon, his dialogue was never placed between brackets.

Additionally, the quote I used to introduce this has Kirschtaria and the Chaldean act passive-aggressive to each other. Kirschtaria also seems to know him ("persuasive as usual") and calls him "mage." He had the nerve to bring up how the Crypters were saved by the "God" from the brink of death, he's saving Chaldea from a similar situation that the "God" wanted them to be (the priestess is inciting to their destruction a scene before). It balances it out. Now, the exchange gains even another layer if he's Flauros-Lev who put Team A on the brink of death and now is doing the opposite: saving Guda and Mash from that situation.

Speaking of parallelism. In the prologue of Atlantis, Chaldean talks about Chaldea’s journey on each lostbelts and what each represented and evoked during his conversation with Musashi:

In Salomon, Flauros does a similar thing (with a talent to poetically match the description and wording) about Chaldea’s journey across the Singularities:

Now, now, some parallels don't work because Lev/Flauros warns about Holmes (or if he’s innocent, the “person you can’t fully trust”) when Holmes warned about Roman. But if we think "Chaldean" as "Chaldeans" with (Lostroom?) Roman's body and passive presence perhaps to Lev's active ego, then it does fit. It matches the Opening too. In the Opening there is no Solomon or Goetia, there is Lev and Romani showed together. Which, IMO, isn't just about "nostalgic part 1 Chaldea" when Da Vinci is missing! And this is also part of the final consideration for this theory, which is still green and could be just a wild and fanciful wishful thinking. Parallelism, mirror scenes, the Opening also brings back a familiar sight: Fuyuki Singularity and Saber (Saber Alter?). We might return to it, Mash and Guda, will walk into those streets again. Who else was involved in that adventure aside from the Servants? Olga, Roman, and Lev.

(Who knows though. To drive further the mirror and opposite parallelism - If the one who ends up saving Olga -whatever this means since Nasu doesn’t just make it equal to save one’s life- is Lev).

Edit: A friend from twitter (exceddius) just observed in our chat that the background colors of the snapshot with Lev and Roman in the OP somehow match with the ones in the scene of the Chaldean, but are the only place in the Opening they are used in the same combination:

The red is from the fight below, but his background color is blue and magenta (ignoring the light coloured clouds and details that are because is an outdoors spot lighting rather than an inside one). It seems kinda distinctive visual effect to give a similar color association between the scenes:

#fate grand order #speculation #romani archaman #lev lainur flauros #person of chaldea #meta #lostbelt spoilers #cosmos in the lostbelts #this is a wild theory yo #as promised

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ignitification · 3 years

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I think people *cough hero stans *cough forget Hawks was trained by the HPSC themselves. No matter the situation, would he not have been trained by the professionals to save lives in any situation (excluding the spy stuff and the ok on killing for the LOV.) I also remember someone bringing up at one point how when E and Hawks were walking together before the Nomi attack, remember that guy who wanted to destroy his old workplace? Hawks took him down in an instant alive, why was this boy the same for Twice? Twice’s death saddens me since HK clearly painted Hawks in a negative light with the shadows and creepy eyes potraying what he was doing was wrong, but people seem to misinterpret it. I get people have their own opinions, but don’t change the intended narrative of what was shown...

Hey, I think that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It goes without saying that this is worth for me, you and anyone on this planet. Is it really okay to have different opinions, but you are right when you say that (in my opinion) they are misinterpreting the situation. Actually, a comment on the post pointed out how this 'misinterpretation' might just be the collective and very wanted application of a bias into the meaning of the story. Which means that this view might be caused by the incapability to actually put themselves into the perspective of the victim, and able to analyse anything to which they might not relate to. Unfortunately, it is the case for a lot of people, who cannot relate to abuse victims, and instead think that the authoritarian regime in which (we as well) is lived in is completely normal, and that a status quo should be maintained because for them it's comfortable like this too. But here I digress on a speculation of real society, which has little to do with the general theme.

Definitely the fact that Hawks has been groomed to be a hero by the Commission to atone for his father's sins has a direct relevance onto his behaviour as an adult. He is as well conscious of that, and in my opinion, it also makes Hawks more humane. He feels like a bird in a cage, but does not allow himself to feel like a victim. And this is why he is able to do what he thinks he has to do to Twice. This though, does not change the narrative of the Raid Arc, nor does it change the fact that Twice's actions, while the same of a common villain, have been justified by the inherent nature of the victim of the crime. It's not like everyone is saying that it is okay to murder for Hawks. No. The states thing is that Twice has deserved to be killed by Hawks, which he had been justified in doing, because Twice was a villain. There is no difference, in Hawks' (and heroes' stans) eyes to who the villain is, and why they did what they did. If they need to be eliminated for a greater cause, Hawks is willing to blood his hands - because he has been taught that it is okay for him to do so (despite being a hero) and unfortunately, and because there was no one to testify against him, Twice fits those criteria. Other than to show the panels of how the story went however and try to reason, I cannot do much else and since everyone is entitled to their opinion, well, that's how it goes.

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mistresseast · 3 years

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You make some really good points, but I wish literally anyone in this fandom wanted to write about it. I just hate how Akira is not allowed to be happy, and even with the long wait, no one seems to want him to be reunited with Goro and to be happy. Or address how Maruki was manipulative and fucked up. It's just so unfair to him.

I know this fandom seems really doom and gloom most of the time, believe me, it kind of wears me down too sometimes. I love some nice, cathartic angst as much as the next person, but it’s hard to watch characters you care about be essentially left for dead by the fandom over and over when there’s plenty of evidence that they are actually okay and will be able to grow and heal in the future. However, I promise that’s not the only content to be found here. Since Royal came out, I’ve seen a definite upswing in fics and art that celebrate their future reunion and the positives that resulted from the revelations of the third semester. Most of the popular, well-known stuff is just still from before Royal, so the tone is admittedly darker. There’s more emphasis on grief and exploring the repercussions of Goro’s unceremonious “death” and even fix-its tend to get hung up on atonement and redemption instead of healing. And it’s understandable; when a relationship ends the way shuake’s did in vanilla, it leaves people feeling restless and upset, and the best way to vent those feelings is through generating bittersweet content. It’s a catharsis, a way to purge all of the unfinished emotions vanilla left us with. And even now that we have a more hopeful ending, most fans, the ones who have been around since vanilla, are still in that frame of mind. We were so screwed over by the last ending, that we’re just kind of...used to mourning Goro Akechi at this point.

My experience following along with the real-time first playthroughs of Royal is something that will stick with me forever. I won’t get too into it, but when it looked like Goro’s fate in the ship was unchanged, I was devastated. But then he was back! And then he was gone again. And the translations were perfunctory at first, most of us didn’t know for sure what was going on, so we were all getting ready to accept Goro being “dead” again. Fortunately, that’s not at all what happened! He’s alive and he’s fine and in fact he was never dead in the first place, even in vanilla! It was amazing! And I was so happy for a reason to let go of the grief I’d been nursing since I learned his fate the first FIRST time around. But not everyone is as eager to leave that darkness behind. In some cases, people just genuinely don’t understand what happened in the game, and the narrative of Goro being alive bc of Akira’s wish is so tempting and so painfully beautiful that it’s become essentially fandom canon just by the sheer power it evokes. I may be wrong, but I feel like this is the majority of people. They take Maruki’s words at face value and are then inundated by fandom content that reinforces that idea, making it easy to ignore Goro’s brief appearance in the true ending or write it off. They’ve been trained by vanilla not to expect a happy ending for these characters and they just accept it. And there are also folks who prefer the darker ending, of course, and willingly choose to believe it bc it satisfies something in them. Even I’m seduced by the inherent eroticism of things going badly sometimes, and I write almost exclusively for the express purposes of getting the characters soul married or whatever. Tragedies are compelling and that’s just some people’s cup of tea. No shame there.

That’s not to say I don’t get frustrated by it sometimes though. It’s frustrating to me that the idea of Akira’s love for Goro sustaining a new dimension is so fucking delicious that it basically overshadows the fact that Goro is actually alive AND buries the lead about what a scumbag Maruki truly is. We’re all so enamored by the High Romance of it all that we fail to recognize it for what it is: a lie. Maruki fucking got us!! He tricked this whole fandom into living in a fantasy world!! God, how meta, how unintentionally brilliant. We’re just like Akira: too in love with Goro to even question what Maruki says. As frustrating as it is, you kind of have to love it.

That said, as time goes on, I believe the fandom outlook will continue to lighten. I saw a HUGE surge of positive post-game content after the deleted scene of Goro at the clinic was discovered bc people were finally willing to give into the desire to give Goro a happy ending now that they’re less afraid of being hurt by some new revelation later on. And as that becomes the norm, the discussion around Maruki will change too. Currently he has this reputation as a well-meaning villain, but when Goro being undeniably alive becomes more ingrained in the fandom consciousness, his manipulation will be more obvious to people. I truly believe that this fandom is full of people who WANT happy endings, who WANT Goro and Akira to be reunited, but have been taught for so long that believing one can actually happen is stupid. And the ending we got is just ambiguous enough to prey on that fear of being played for the fool. As time passes, so will that fear, and the fandom content will reflect that. And there’s already hopeful stuff out there if you look for it! People are catching on! Plus, there’s my time-honored advice: if you can’t find the content that satisfies you, you just have to make it! That’s why all of my fics exist. Putting more positivity out there will only help other people get on board the happy ending train faster.

I know you probably just wanted to vent and didn’t need a whole essay about fandom psychology, but I promise you, I know how you feel, and I’ve been steeping in the shuake stew long enough to tell you that things are already better than they were. We can only go up from here!!

Also disclaimer!! All of this nonsense is based on my individual experience and interpretation. Everyone experiences fandom differently and I certainly don’t claim to be an expert. ymmv

#ask tag #anon #idk if i should tag this fandom wank? how about i just not put it in the fandom tags #anon if you're out there: keep the faith!!#isablogging

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snkpolls · 4 years

Text

SnK Chapter 133 Results

The chapter poll closed with 1456 responses. This month’s poll results brought to you by /u/berthototototo ,u/staraves, u/_Puppet_, @shifter-lines and @momtaku

RATE THE CHAPTER 1,365 responses

Nearly 80% of the fandom rated chapter 133 as good or great. In comparison with most SnK chapters, that’s on the low side. Since this was yet another set up chapter it’s possible that the fandom is waiting to see what payoff there will be before they throw their full support behind the developments introduced this month.

lmao good chapter but wtf

It's the best paced chapter since the rumbling began.

All I can say is I can't wait for the next chapter.

Great start to the end

There were a lot of contrived moments here on the first read but I'm hopeful things will play out in an unexpected way.

One of the better recent chapters, felt well paced and most of the dialogue and events seemed logical and fitting. Nice to see one more location added to the AOT world before the end.

I’ve been doing polls for almost 30 chapters now, this is the first where I have no chapter rating, I need to see how all this plays out before I decide if I love it or hate it.

All of this self-reflection is annoying. Though that feeling is just more because of the fact that waiting a whole month for another ‘these hands have killed’ chapter is not exciting when we are so close do the end and I just want to see the ending already.

Average as fuck, the intention is good but the execution is not it, and the dialogues feel very forced and repetitive.

Not good at connecting the narrative plot points 'cause there's...hundreds of them at this point but I'm here for the character interactions and to see just what the hell that "See you, Eren" from the beginning actually meant

Good but I worry about the pacing, some of this should have came earlier, will wait to see what comes from it.

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING WAS YOUR FAVORITE MOMENT 1,379 responses

Looks like a lot of people were glad to see that this conflict will not be resolved with a little heart-to-heart (34.9%). People also loved seeing child Eren being spooky with his new pal Ymir (18.8%). 11% liked seeing Eren’s friends reach out to him – or at least try. 9.4% liked Levi, because Levi. Connie, Jean, and Reiner sharing a moment of understanding warmed 8.6% of your hearts. 5.6% were happy to see Falco and Gabi brainstorming, and seeing Mr. Leonhart being a badass was the favorite moment for 3.6%.

I don’t know how it didn’t come up in this survey that Levi called Armin COMMANDER. That was my favorite moment by far. I also enjoyed the confirmation of Levi still caring about Eren. He always uses Zeke as a scapegoat. I somewhat feel bad for monke.

Isayama yeeting the Talk no Jutsu trope was my favorite moment!

I CAN"T BELIEVE THAT FLYING TITAN IS CANON LIKE HOLY SHIT

It was tough for me to decide a favorite moment from this chapter because every scene in this one was awesome. That's how fantastic of a chapter it was! I guess the only issue for me is the possibility of the Flying Titan actually becoming a reality when it felt too good to be true, but looking back, I think there was some foreshadowing to this becoming a reality.

God bless Isayama for the flying titan reveal

Favourite part was child Eren and Ymir standing in the paths.

Kiyomi being willing to die and sink with the ship actually hit me harder than I expected

Levi being the smollest husband is my favorite.

The gang forgiving RBA makes my heart weep with both melancholy and joy

WHO WAS THIS CHAPTER’S MVP 1,363 responses

Kiyomi and Eren are similar shades of green in this chart but I assure you it was Eren’s ranting about freedom (39.8%) and not Kiyomi’s talk of sacrifice and atonement (1%) that granted Eren this month’s MVP. Armin (18.9%), Mr. Leonhardt (9.5%), Falco (6.2%) and Levi (5.7%) are the other visible pieces of the pie.

#TEAMEREN

ANNIE IS THE BEST GIRL!

EREN IS A GENEROUS GOD

Falco is a good boy

Proud of armin for not backing out from commander role🤩

I love every time Eren shows up nowadays, other characters are getting a little worrying tho, Its starting to seem like alot of them have outlived their usefulness to the story and are just repeating stuff until their deaths.

Reiner handsome. That is all.

eren is just a cool badass

WILL ONYANKOPON ACTUALLY MANAGE TO GET THE PLANE TO EREN WITHOUT ISSUE, OR WILL THE HALF-CAPACITY FUEL TANK BECOME A RELEVANT POINT? 1,363 responses

Because Isayama has made clear that details as small as which direction Grisha is looking while leaving the house can’t go unquestioned in this manga, we asked about the fuel tank which is at half-capacity thanks to Floch, and whether or not it will present problems for those on board. A strong plurality, at 44.2% of you, think that they’ll run out of fuel, but it won’t be a massive hindrance. In second place, with almost exactly half of the votes as the first answer, 22.2% of you think Onyankopon will use the plan in some sort of suicidal attack, and just under 20% think the fuel tank will be a major roadblock in some other way. Lastly, ~14% of voters said they’ll make it just fine despite the damage. I admire your optimism.

I hope in vain that Onyankopon doesn't die. He won't even get to go to PATHS if he does.

THE TALK WITH EREN FINALLY HAPPENED… SORT OF. WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING DESCRIBE YOUR THOUGHTS? 1,371 responses

Multiple select charts aren’t the prettiest but we like to think they do a good job of showcasing what the fandom thinks on a topic. While none of the options this month reached any sort of consensus, they do provide a snapshot of what we want and expect from Eren.

Of the items offered, only “I’m glad Eren was firm and there will likely be no Talk no Jutsu” reached 50%. The other more popular choice were “I’m surprised Eren reached out to them instead of the other way around” (41%), “THAT PATHS STUFF IS STILL SO COOL” (38.8%) and “I’m glad so many were able to talk to him and it wasn’t just EMA” (33%).

The more negative options, ‘Eren was unnecessarily cruel, his friends deserve better”(13.8%), “I’m mad that Eren is letting them fight him. It’s like he wants to lose” (10.6% ) and “I don’t like Eren dismissing the possibility of talking” (8.1%) received only a fraction of support.

it looks like Eren is committed to HIS path, which backs his friends into a really tough corner. I can't say I'm surprised; we've seen it coming since they got to the ocean, we just didn't want to believe it.

Paths do be lit tho

I really wish Eren would stop the rumbling. He had done more than enough.

Eren's speech, didn't feel like him talking. It was way too typical, he used his catchphrases way too many times. This could be done on purpose for an in-story actual reason, but if it wasn't, i'm not a fan of it. The alliance talking about the colossal being able to defeat eren, makes me think armin won't be able to. I think Armin and Reiner still don't understand Eren's intentions, i fully think he does not want to be stopped. Eren is going to try to kill all of them.

I love Eren dialogues. I just loved the chapter and paths scene so much. Quality character development!!

Feel sad about Erens "catch me if you can" - I wish that the alliance will work together with Eren ....

Thank god for no talk no jutsu

he's been allowing them to use their titan powers, even against the Yeagerists who were supposed to defend their country. That means Eren doesn't dise with his friends, but doesn't side with his own supporters. Yeah, Eren's a dick.

WHOSE WORDS TO EREN DID YOU ENJOY THE MOST? 1,366 responses

The attempts at talking to Eren were almost a character rorschach test as each individual brought up what was closest to their hearts in an effort to stop the rumbling. While none of their pleas impacted Eren, we were curious which one the fandom enjoyed most. Levi’s promise of an ass kicking (32.5%) was the favorite, distantly followed by Mikasa’s more impassioned “Let us share your burdens” (24.9%).

Levi beeing sassy again - awsome

Mikasa saying she wants Eren to share his sins with her may be a hint for what's to come. I think she won't be able to let go of Eren and turn against the alliance to protect him.

Levi is hilarious

Honestly, the alliance have been so clueless that even Eren himself had to spare a moment for them, explicitly telling them that talking is never an option with Eren ‘I must always fight’ Yeager.

Look man, I'm an Eremika shipper and all but I really wish Mikasa didn't go on her usual "I'm here for you Eren" spiel in paths. It felt a little forced, and this would've been a good arc to have some more upfront and major changes as to how Mikasa sees Eren, but to get that usual "100% devotion" Mikasa that we've seen all series after we got signs that she's changed how she sees Eren was kind of disappointing.

I knew that the alliance talking to Eren won't work

Everyone is all sad while trying to convince Eren to stop the rumbling, and there's Levi cracking up jokes 😂

EREN PREEMPTIVELY TOLD THE ALLIANCE TO NOT NEGOTIATE WITH HIM AND TO ATTACK HIM WITH THE INTENT OF KILLING HIM. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? 1,357 responses

It seems to be another month of Isayama dangling Eren’s motivations in front of us, though this time we got some substance in the form of some surprising words to the alliance. The most popular interpretation is the straightforward one (30.1%), that it’s as Eren says and he is genuine in not wanting to step on his friends’ freedom. Up next is people who support Reiner’s hypothesis of Eren wanting somebody to stop him (21.2%), with decreasingly popular choices being Eren wants to be killed only after the rumbling is complete (15.5%), he’s just continuing his daily “freedom” spiel (12.4%), and he’s confident in the alliance’s inability to stop him (11.6%). Many opted for the write in option to share their original theories (5.6%).

Seemed like a cry for help to me.

Im convinced that he wants to be stopped, he just doesn’t realize it yet.

Inconsistent character writing lol

Eren loves his friends, so much that he is unleashing the Rumbling, but he only cares about them on a physical level. He wants them to stay alive, no matter how they are mentally.

Eren is in the darkest part of his mind and wants to die. However, his obession with freedom is strong, so he keeps moving foward and won't allow his friends to just kill him without fight.

He wants the alliance to challenge fate, as he thinks the destruction of the world is inevitable

I believe that Eren does want to win but doesn’t want to live with the guilt, but I just felt this moment was too forced, and honestly a little bit cringe, just didn’t feel like something Eren would say

It wasn't Eren talking

No idea, not even sure it's really Eren talking

There are only a few possibilities that make sense: Reiner is right and he wants them to kill him, Ymir is controlling the PATHS and trying to imitate Eren but doesn't quite understand that his concept of freedom is hypocritical, OR Eren only sees restriction of freedom enforced through PATHS as being truly taking away their freedom, like he thinks it's alright to manipulate, gaslight, beat and imprison his friends using his own voice and hands, but using the Founder is somehow too far.

it’s all a part of his plan even tho the fandom hates it. Just wait for it guys ;)

Eren wants the world to see that the Eldians they hate are saving them from the rumbling

If allaiance kills eren then the world will respect eldians more

Zero Requiem

I don't like the Lelouch scenario, it is contrary to what Eren's character really is. I believe there is more to this because why say it now, when he could have said it before ? There has been many holes with what he's doing.

Lelouch ending

LELOUCH LELOUCH LELOUCH

It means he values freedom over safety... which makes him look like a hypocrite because a lot of times he had no problem taking their freedom from them lol

hes hypcritical asf, getting to decide who can be free or not when he that literally was bothered by that himself. I think it was very selfish

Eren has become crazy had this point and his reasoning doesn't make sense, he's trying to dodge reality

Eren is just trying to define, create, and justify his own version of “freedom” because he can’t let go of his childish way of looking at the world. Letting his friends have their “freedom” almost feels like a cheap necessity he had to toss into his homemade definition of freedom.

Eren is a fucking narcissist, a hypocrite.

Eren is dumb

Eren is just doing what he has to do.

Eren's cool as fuck

He's literally giving them the choice to do what they want. The freedom of will. It's up to them to decide if they want to stop him by force or not. At the end of the day, Eren is already firmly set on doing what's necessary for Paradis.

If they want to die trying to stop the rumbling, they are free to do so. But, he wants them to know that negotiating is useless

Reiner is wrong, Eren doesn't want to be stopped because the Cringevengers are trying to take away his freedom to destroy his enemies

EREN IS DEPICTED AS A CHILD, AND WITH THE SAME SHADED EYES AS YMIR ONCE DID. WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING EXPLANATIONS DO YOU BELIEVE? 1,339 responses

Child Eren appears again in this chapter, but now resembling Ymir even more. About half of the fandom thinks that the shaded out eyes is a sign of loss of free will. The other popular option, at 42.1% is that they’re depicted at the age they first got their titan powers. The idea that their eyes symbolize ignorance and that their child form symbolizes immaturity each got about 16%, and 10.5% of fans think Yams drew it this way just to look cool.

Alliance POV. They cannot understand Eren/Ymir, therefore their eyes (=windows to the soul) are obscured. Note that Ymir's eyes gradually got clearer from Eren's POV as he humanized her.

Carla died when Eren was still a child. He never healed from this traumatic experience, his child-self is still strongly suffering, that why he appeared as a child. I believe that the child next to Ymir is the darkest part of Eren's soul.

child self image is reflective of eren entering a state of naivety so as to bear the pain and gravity of the rumbling which he has caused

I think it symbolizes a kinda immature concept of freedom

"Slaves don't need two eye balls". Eren is a slave to freedom.

shaded eyes represent being blinded by their desire for freedom & child-like state represents their innocence even if deemed to be something more

The are the ages of their greatest trauma

Adult Eren couldn't live with the guilt so he's letting child Eren carry the weight.

Both of them are doing everything for the sake of others, at the moment they aren't even thinking about themselves. EREN wants the people he loves and cares about to live a happy life and for that he is ready to sacrifice himself.

Bert had shaded eyes when talking to Armin too. I think it means the character is going to do questionable actions but in a mysterious manner. If that makes sense…

Bertold had the same shaded eyes when he was acting as the villain in rts. Same for Eren/Ymir here. Like Bertold, he is willing to kill his friends

Eren could have split his psyche similar to Reiner did with Marco. He is so distraught from his actions that he is using his child self's willpower to continue moving forward.

What about that parasite thing that attached to Ymir in the tree? What if that's the big bad of the series, and has taken over Eren?

The eyes are closed because they are tapped into the Yggdrasil network and are looking at what is happening in the real world through an inner eye.

YMIR APPEARS TO BE ALIGNED WITH EREN. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS? 1,329 responses

Ymir and Eren standing side by side was quite the sight to behold, but what does it mean? The large majority at 55.9% believe it indicates that they’re on the same side wanting the rumbling. 19.2% believe Eren to be a pawn to her now, 15.6% think it’s the other way around, and 9.3% think she’s on his side but is having doubts about her allegiance.

Corrupted by the Eren’s idea of freedom (Ymir’s freedom was taken from her); Child Eren is a prisoner of Adult Eren’s future actions.

Eren is taking Ymir's place as the lord of the Paths. Like Ymir, after he dies, he will live on in the Paths.

I low key think Eren is kinda being controlled by Ymir/ conflicting with her

Eren is now like Ymir, enslaved in Paths to something bigger

Ymir started controlling Eren when he was a child

Ymir and Eren are tied together now. One is definitely being influenced by the inner emotions of the other (possibly Ymir's years of resentment for her life since we saw Eren "sleeping" at the end of one of the previous chapters with the birds)

Eren as a child symbolises regression, immaturity and narrow-mindedness. Eren refuses to be an adult (aka making compromises, listening to others…) and enslaves himself to the simplistic ideology he had as a child. Ymir was a literal slave who never managed to emancipate herself despite her power. I think the parallel between the two is to make Eren's state of mind more explicit than it already was in 131.

EY is cute and canon

EREN SAYS ALL THAT’S LEFT IS TO FIGHT. WHO IN THE APPROACHING BATTLE WOULD HE BE WILLING TO KILL? 1,333 responses

Eren’s willingness to kill his own friends has been a topic of debate ever since the two sides separated, and this chapter pushed that question further. People seem to think Eren would hesitate the most with Mikasa and Armin, and hesitate the least with Pieck and Reiner, with the others falling into various middle positions, as the chart shows. The requisite to avoid Eren’s hit list seems to unsurprisingly be a pre-existing bond with him, with some leeway being given to children. Except for Gabi, it seems, but we all know how Eren fondly refers to her as “that brat”.

Eren has accepted that he will kill his friends, and wants to get it over with

Eren explicitly said "If someone tries to take my freedom, I won't hesitate to take theirs". That was in private to Zeke, so I don't doubt for a minute he will kill anyone in the Cringevengers he needs to in order to achieve it.

He is willing to kill them and I can't wait when some of the 104th will die already

Eren kill Armin already please

If Falco dies, I cries.

IF NEITHER SIDE STEPS DOWN, EREN SAYS THEY’LL COLLIDE. WHO DO YOU THINK WILL WIN THE BATTLE? 1,349 responses

The time to make your bets is here! As the long-awaited battle between the alliance and Eren approaches, the audience is almost evenly divided on what they think the outcome will be. If this poll counts for anything, the alliance are projected as the victors (50.6%), narrowly edging out (by only 15 votes) the believers in Eren as the winner (49.4%). Whether you attribute the neck-and-neck result to the unpredictability of the setup, or simply too many clearly incorrect people from the opposing side to yours, is up to you.

The alliance will win GG WP

The alliance have 1 skilled warrior , 2 skilled former SC soldiers , 5 Titan shifters and 2 Ackermans but I still thinking that they can't defeat Eren or Ymir .

th Eldian empire will win in the end and the outside world will get what it deserves...I hope

Eren naturally shouldn’t be able to be stopped. He’s way too powerful.

I appreciate the fact that Commander Armin definitely has no tangible plan and it was the SC part manifesting their death throes for a peaceful end. Still I can't help but cringe and not feel anything at their attempt.

don’t think it’s a win/lose situation between eren and alliance, both with win and lose in some way and there will be some 3rd option

I can't wait to see the alliance-Eren fight. I just can't wait

Isayama's writing with his asshole. Whoever side gets to win, we lose.

LEVI RETURNED FROM PATHS WITH MORE FINGERS THAN HE STARTED WITH. IS THIS A MISTAKE? 1,342 responses

We’ve seen Isayama make mistakes that the fandom took too far before, is this the case again? In an incredibly close vote, 51.5% think it is just a mistake, while the other half at 48.5% are convinced Isayama slipped in this plot development.

I've been saying this for years but Levi getting his fingers back from the Paths was definitely intentional and I'm sure the relationship between Ackermans and the Paths are going to be a major plot point. And after 132 I'm wondering if the 'afterlife' aspect will prove important too.

Is it just me or has Annie been going through a growth spurt lately? Either that or Isayama's artwork is getting sloppy. Not to even mention Levi's fingers…

This was quite a chapter. So many things that could happen especially with the flying titan. And then levi possibly having his fingers back. Then learning annie’s titan power. I heard aot will have a bad ending but i hope the the alliance will win.

Levi is being healed by the coordenate. Ackerman's blood is "half titan" so he must have recovered because of that just like titans do.

WHICH COMMANDER HAD A BETTER TITAN DRAWING? 1,352 responses

Can Armin live up to Erwin? While he’s asking himself that, the fandom has decided that in the drawing department he has not. Erwin’s (in?)famous turkey titan drawing ate up 61.2% of the votes compared to Armin’s drawing from this chapter at 38.8%.

none of this would have happened if my goat erwin was still alive

IF EREN IS INDEED STOPPED BY SOMEONE, WHETHER IT BE KILLING HIM OR INHERITING HIS TITANS, WHO MAKES THE MOST SENSE FOR THIS ROLE? 1,349 responses

The bets are on Mikasa being the one to stop Eren and/or inherit his burdens at 30.2%. Her words to Eren this chapter could definitely be foreboding in hindsight. Armin, leader of the uphill battle against Eren, is the runner-up at 26.5%. 18.6% think the answer is no one – presumably because Eren will either wipe ‘em all out, or be the one to decide his own fate. 13.5% think Reiner will be the one, he is the same as Eren after all. But everyone is the same nowadays, so who knows?

We then have Gabi (4.3%), Falco (2%), and Zeke, Jean, and Levi tied (1.5%). Annie follows with a tiny fraction (0.4%), and Pieck, the ultimate underdog, has the fewest votes at 2, or 0.1%.

...Hang on, aren’t we missing someone? Yes – even below Pieck, there is the underdog of underdogs: literally nobody thinks Connie will be the one to end it all. Will he ever be considered a real main character? :’(

I'm leaning towards Mikasa.

It feels like there was a lot of foreshadowing for Reiner to go head-to-head with Eren one final time.

Can't wait for Gabi to eat Eren.

WILL LEVI KILL ZEKE? 1,322 responses

It’s been over 4 years both in and out of world since Levi vowed to kill Zeke. Will he end up doing it after all this time? The majority of fans think he will, at 54.8%. 18.5% think he’ll die before completing his goal, and 14.2% think he’ll reassess the situation and his goal of killing Zeke.

Both will die fighting each other

He may kill him and realise it was pointless, both as revenge and to stop the rumbling. Or possibly he'll be prevented from using violence as a solution this time. No forgiveness though.

He will defeat him but die just after killing him

He will fulfill his promise to Erwin but he'll die soon after

I do think he will but I don't think it's about Erwin's promise anymore

He will prioritize stopping Eren over killing Zeke

Please don't kill monke. Let him redeem himself first. Monke to save the world!

He won't necessarily forgive Zeke, but he will take pity on his sad state of affairs, but more importantly realise stopping the rumbling is more important than his petty revenge.

I predict Levi will kill Zeke, but it will be some kind of suicidal attack that will get him killed in the process.

Zeke will die but not by Levi's hand

He'll be forced to team up with him to save the world. But won't forgive him.

Nah, characters never get what they want, plus I don't see a real fight between them, that would be repetitive and too predictable and Zeke is probably too distressed/depressed over what happened in paths. And that would be really boring if Levi killed him tbh.

No, Because Zeke is already dead

I can’t believe the Beast Titan could be any animal they wanted, including a T-Rex, and that boring jackass picked a monkey. As if he wasn’t enough of a loser.

HOW CORRECT ARE ARMIN AND LEVI IN THINKING THE RUMBLING CAN BE STOPPED BY KILLING ZEKE? 1,343 responses

Levi suggests to the alliance that instead of ending Eren’s life to stop the rumbling, they could opt to kill the man previously called the key to the Founder, Zeke. Only 4.2% of people agree that this would help in stopping the rumbling, with the most popular response at 41.8% being it would fail due to Eren having full control of the Founder. The belief that Zeke’s death would have alternatively disastrous consequences is also popular, with 27.8% thinking Ymir’s presence would allow the titans’ advancement to continue, and 26.2% expecting the lack of command over the titans would render them mindless, but still functioning.

killing zeke probably won’t solve anything since the rumbling has already started, it might make a difference since eren isn’t royal but i think it’s just too late, and I really don’t want zeke to get killed

They'll find either that Zeke is already dead and was only needed alive for a moment to begin the rumbling, or that his continued existence is still necessary for defeating Eren somehow.

Everyone's talking about "stop Eren using Zeke," and here I am remembering "Zeke, stop Eren."

How is killing Zeke going to solve what Eren is doing? The poor guy just wanted to achieve his dream of eliminating all pp’s and instead he has to bear the burden of the destruction of the whole world.

Killing Zeke instead of Eren would be an emotional cop out for the Alliance. I hope that won't become the case, because that would make the ending of this manga super dissatisfying.

WHICH WHOLESOME MOMENT BETWEEN COMRADES DID YOU LIKE THE MOST? 1,334 responses

In such dire times, wholesome moments really are appreciated. 43.5% loves seeing Annie recall her 104th days the most, while 28.3% appreciated Connie accepting comfort from Reiner. The rest of you were split pretty closely between Gabi and Falco being adorbs together and Armin emulating Hange in his interactions with Onyankopon.

Annie's flashbacks of the Warriors I rly liked, Reiner smugly looking at Bertholdt was rly heartwarming...

It is very heart-warming how close the surviving members of the 104th still feel to each other after all said and done, including Eren.

the 104 got some understanding /closure for previous actions, so that's nice

Gabi and falco should have listened to Annie when she told them to take care of the charcoal, instead of ruining the chapter, and spewing some nonsense

WHICH OVERUSED PHRASE FROM THIS CHAPTER ARE YOU MOST TIRED OF? 1,315 responses

Isayama sure is hammering home certain themes and character motivations; is it too much? 29.1% are tired of hearing everyone scream EREH, which is most often attributed to Mikasa, but it branched out this chapter to all his friends. 22.3% got bored of everyone being the same as each other; because when everyone’s the same, no one is. 19.5% are tired of every other word out of Eren’s mouth being freedom, 16.4% want Levi to get an original thought, and 12.7% want Eren to shut up about his other catchphrase and just stay put for one second.

Muh ereh

I LOVE YOU EREN KEEP MOVING FORWARD 4EVER

"The dialogue between Jean, Reiner, and Connie couldn’t have been worse. It felt like a bunch of stock phrases, “we’re the same”, “traitor”, etc.

Can't remember who said this and where but Eren does love his friends, it's just that he only cares about their physical well-being. ""You are free to do as I see fit.""

Ereh: Reiner, I am the same as you. I know that my enemies are the same but I have no choice because Society™

Rainah: No, you are wrong. I had a choice, but I attacked the walls because I was selfish and because I wanted to.

Ereh: Damn bro, same. Time to commit war crimes!

Man, each time I feel like the 104 can't be more annoying... I can't stand their whining about ereh, how they don't wan't to kill him and that ereh is just misguided, let's talk, please come back uwu.

The forced ""We're the same"" bullshit is really getting on my nerves. Reiner broke a wall with the goal of committing a genocide against innocent civilians. Jean and Connie killed a few soldiers with the goal of STOPPING a genocide against innocent civilians. No, these actions are not the same, and I'm sick of Isayama trying to make us think that they are. Now, I can forgive it because it seems like he's just going for a "Jean, Connie and Reiner all murdered former comrades and are racked with guilt because of it" comparison, which I'm fine with, but we're on thin ice here with the moral reductionism.

"We're the same". I'm sorry, are they suggesting the 104th and Warriors are ANYTHING alike? the 104th are victims of circumstance who were forced to make terrible choices. The Warriors willingly slaughtered hundreds of thousands. The Warriors are horrendous monsters beyond redemption, and it's insulting of Connie to say they're the same as those inhuman creatures.

even tho I liked that Connie and Jean acknowledge their similarities with the Warriors, they are still not the same, the Warriors were brainwashed coerced children when they started their crimes, the 104th were adults in high positions when they killed innocents and they enabled Eren to do the Rumbling by ignoring the signs, while RBA almost from the start fought to prevent the Rumbling.

The chapter's named Sinners, Isayama called feeding a person to a titan a sin right as chapter 84 came out, and EAMJC killing Bert still hasn't been addressed under these circumstances? They're saying they are the same as the warriors which isn't true in any capacity and I hope they fall on their ass soon to realise they are not at all the same.

Eren saying freedom all the time has been cringe since the EMA table confrontation.

WHAT WILL FALCO’S FLYING TITAN BE USED FOR? 1,335 responses

The most popular two options, at roughly a third each, are that Falco will come in clutch at the final battle, and that he’ll save them when the plane starts to falter.

Carrying the Eldian evacuees to safety but remember there are also Marleyans there. A titan saving Marleyans, by its own will, will all help for the final peace treaties

Either taking Annie, Gabi, Yelena, and Kiyomi off the boat and picking up the Alliance in case the Flying Boat runs out of fuel at any point, or carrying the Eldians from Liberio to safety in case there are no airships left at Fort Salta to escort them.

What's the point of Annie going off if she's just going to join back a chapter later after more aruani flashbacks?

I DON'T WANT TO BELIEVE IN THAT

Eren is baiting him with that "scenery" because he needs to have the 9 titans to end the Ymir's curse

Fly gabi to the founding Titan to snipe eren

I get a feeling that he is the one who may inherit Eren's titans. What would be the point of giving him the titan powers, if he doesn't have any bigger role to play? Falco is somehow opposite to Eren, so if the power of the FT and AT are given to such pure boy like him, the future of the world might become brighter.

I thought the dialogue hinted more at Annie eating Falco's spinal fluid and gaining wings. Also I think it will be funny if Falco's memories are not from the previous Beast Titan but is actually the "Scenery" (it looks suspiciously similar)

Transporting Annie, Gabi and Falco where needed for the plot.

I wonder if Annie mentioning eating birds meant anything, or if it was just another poor attempt at humour by Isayama?

He'll transform thinking he can fly, find out he can't, the ship will sink and that's how Isayama will kill the characters on the ship

He'll fly far away on a different planet and start a new colony. Oh wait there is atmosphere. Whatever paths will lend him some cheat codes :P

THE PLOT POINTS HINTED AT IN THIS CHAPTER HAVE SPARKED SOME BACKLASH. HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT EACH ONE?

So many revelations! The most controversial ones are Falco potentially becoming a flying titan, him getting Zeke’s memories, and the Female Titan powers; though more people are ok with each of these than not. Eren letting his friends continue to use titan powers, and the Beast Titan being multiple animals are the most accepted developments.

The idea of a flying titan is forceful and too convenient. I wonder how Isayama will draw it and not make it look like something odd.

The flying titan thing is the dumbest and most forced thing in snk I've seen. It feels like something from a fanfic and just seems so out of place. It's so sudden and forced. There are other things that seem really rushed in this chapter too. Like the bits about Annie's titan etc.

Lol at people calling anything about this “forced”. AoT fans pretend they’re a lot smarter than they actually are.

The stuff about Female titan and flying titans and memories being distributed was maybe a bit too conveniently delivered in the very end of the whole series, but tbh it's still plausible in-universe. I take it as a sign that Isayama knows what he wants and he wants to do the ending justice, not just get it out there as soon as possible with as little work as possible."

I'm glad the Falco can fly because it means the rest of the alliance can join the final battle and him flying was well built up. What I think should have been set up better is this power coming specifically from the Beast Titan. All past users we have seen of it was a monkey and we're just being told it could be other animals now?

some things (like zeke's beast memories, female titan abilities, flying titan, warrior families being alive) were so convenient, but I'm not too mad about it

Someone had thought about the beast titan animal theory before, since there was a giant horse at those old "paintings" that tell the story about eldia in marley's perspective, it is in chapter 87 i think, when grisha's parents are lecturing him.

The falco thing is too forced. The beast titan being any animal isn’t that forced but it should’ve been revealed waaay before, not in the same chapter as this whole falco flying thing.

I fully expected the Liberio Eldians to be alive, but was not expecting them to be en route to Fort Salta.

I don't like how plot convenient it is that the Eldian evacuees from Liberio are heading for Fort Salta just like Eren with his rumbling titans, the Alliance fighters on the flying boat, and now apparently the boat crew as well.

I always thought that suggested all the forms that titan could take. In retrospect it feels obvious -- Yams, you practically telegraphed that by naming the kid Falco in the first place.

What do you mean it's stupid that Galliard cured world hunger by creating bacon with his Titan form? His name is PORCO

since when could the Female Titan copy other powers? Did I just miss that? Because it just comes across as a convenient way to get Falco, Gabi, and Annie to the final battle.

annie will eat a boat and tranform into a boat titan AND KILL EREN WITH HER BOATNESS.

WHICH TRAIN MOMENT DID YOU ENJOY THE MOST? 1,332 responses

After being implied in 125, we get to see the Liberio evacuees on the run. As set up in that chapter, 44.8% were most happy to see Mr. Leonhart continuing to be a boss, while 33.6% were most hyped for another great double spread of the rumbling, as we’ve gotten for the last 4 chapters. Mr. Finger and the Brauns' concern for the children came in after that, followed by Karina and the Grices.

Papa Leonhart is a true badass. It wasn’t said if Bertolt’s mother was still alive, and the lack of Galliard parents/zeke’s grandparents was interesting- how the only warrior/cadet families shown were ones with a child that the readers know is still living.

Go Mr Leonhart we stan

I can’t believe karina is still alive

While having all the warriors' family (expect for the Yeagers) be there is forced and not natural, I'm really hoping that Falco gets to reunite with his parents. He's so precious that he deserves that. If the other parents die then so be it as long as I can have a Grice family reunion.

The approaching rumbling has pretty much lost its impact as a visual image because Isayama has overused it to death.

I liked the new character in the train

This chapter was a beautiful demonstration that ANNIE GOT ALL HER GUTS FROM MR. LEONHART THAT BADASS JUST REFUSED TO DIE AND FORCED THE MARLEYAN SOLDIERS TO GET TO THAT TRAIN WHAT A LEGEND

WILL THE BLIMP BOMBERS BE EFFECTIVE AT ALL? 1,348 responses

The chapter ended on the cliffhanger of the blimp bombers approaching Eren, but will it be worth the wait? The Majority, at about 75% think they will take out a few colossals but nothing to write home about, 19.7% think Eren will wipe them out without a second thought, and 5.6% think they will help deal a decisive blow.

I think The bombs on the plane , The colossal Titan nuke ability and the blimps won't do any kind of damage to Eren .

the blimps Will be destroyed by founding titan eren using his thorn on his spine

I'm itching to see eren finally take some sort of action against marley's bombers :D

I’m wondering if Isayama is going to flip the script a bit and showcase how the advancing technology is gaining the upper hand over titans, and cut Eren off in his tracks abruptly/make him change his tactic. Or, if it’ll just be the catalyst for the alliance to stop him after they witness it has no major affect on the titans.

I'm not sure about the direction of the final battle but everything's colliding at Fort Salta one way or another. I'm curious about this volume's cliffhanger."

DESCRIBE THE CHAPTER IN ONE WORD 855 responses

Continuing with the theme of underwhelming reception, the responses to this were, at least compared to others months’, very low in quantity and disparity between the top words. The 5 most chosen words for this chapter, quantity and average rating included, are:

Setup/Set-up [32 ; 3.91] Amazing [28 ; 4.79] Freedom [25 ; 4.20] Awesome [19 ; 4.84] Paths [19 ; 4.16]

Honorable mentions (because they all had the same or only one less amount of picks) include Ereh, Interesting, Great and Pain.

WHAT CHAPTER DO YOU THINK THE MANGA WILL END AT? 1,337 responses

Since Isayama’s self-appointed deadline of 2020 likely failed to stick, we’ve decided to revive this monthly question. The last time we asked, the majority of respondents chose 138 as the final chapter, which remains the most popular option now, though now losing a majority (39.5%), with 140+ (20.9%) and 139 (21.3%) hot on its tail. Perhaps it has something to do with the shared opinion that this chapter is one of setup, but it’s safe to say most of us are unconvinced this is ending anytime soon.

I think that the manga will end at chapter 138 or 139, and so 133 has to be the last "transition" chapter before the climax (end of volume 33/beginning of the last volume)

I think the story is going to end either at 138 or 139.

it will be over in a few months and both like Eren and Yams, we will finally be free.

I just hope Iseyama doesn’t rush to end this before the end of the year. 138 is the minimum

Idc at this point i just want it to end now it feels like it's stalling

I CANT WAIT FOR CHAPTERS 134+ TO COME OUT

im sad its ending :(

WHAT ARE YOU MOST HOPING TO SEE NEXT CHAPTER? 1,366 responses

Wow this was close!! We have a lot of hopes for next month’s volume closer. Of the options we presented, “The alliance finally taking action against Eren” (23.1%), “ZOOK WHERE ARE YOU” (22.1%) and “I’m always down for more Eren Jaeger” (20.9%) created a tight three way race. Historia’s return to the story was a distant fourth (12%).

I'm really curious about Zeke's whereabouts, I'm sure he will play another big role from now on

I’m just confused about Eren’s motivations and desires at this point.

Love the thought of a flying titan

levi better kill zeke next chapter!!!

Pls bring back historia

I just want to see Historia. Please I miss her lesbian greatness. Please I'm tired.

Next chapter is gonna be crazy

where is monke??

Isayama has something up his sleeves and I’m scared for the next chapter lol

Just let Levi kill Zeke already

Kiyomi backstory when?

One thought, the same as after every chapter, who's gonna bite the dust next ?

WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING PLATFORMS DO YOU USE TO DISCUSS THE SERIES? 1,274 responses

Reddit (41.3%) and Twitter (40.7%) remain the two most active platforms for fandom discussion, with Twitter stealthily creeping up on Reddit ever since we allowed multiple selections. Discord follows at (21.6%), with those lucky enough to talk about SnK in real life close behind (20.4%). Wherever you discuss the series we appreciate your support of the chapter poll! Even the Snapchatters.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS ON THE CHAPTER? 365 responses

WOW, something something the japanese fans are not happy copypasta

The rumbing started some time ago and our heroes should get hungry in a little bit, will they be able to call pizza? Or something? Because it'd be very sad if they had to die without dinner :(

If Falco's cloud memories end up being child-Eren's view from last chapter, that would be incredible. So many characters will seemingly play an important role now that I have no idea what will happen next.

Reiner keeps thinking that the dialogue is about their guilt and since they are the same, then Eren wants to kill himself. But one of Eren's main statements is that he keeps moving forward despite everything (and he thinks Reiner is the same). I think Reiner's ""Eren wants us to fight him because he wants to die"" will be proven wrong, and he'll come to the correct conclusion in the end.

it's frustrating seeing eren continue the rumbling for the sake of his friends when it's not what his friends want

It's good but it could freak me out

it's honestly making me feel more hopeless...

Connie Reiner conversation was perfect to bring up his late best friend Bertholdt, but I guess they forget again and pretend they never killed him brutally, and he just got thanosed one day lmao

i'm really enjoying annie's development. she's went from one of my least cared about characters to one of my favourites just from her development with armin and reiner alone. really looking forward to how isayama will finish her arc.

Eren is gonna be defeated by the power of friendship and the power of the scarf he gave to boring Mikasa and also by two kids who should honestly be dead by now but somehow are still alive in this mess anyways boring chapter i don’t care what happen anymore I just want to this to end

According to all known laws of aviation, there is no way a Falco should be able to fly. Its wings are too small to get its fat little body off the ground. The Falco, of course, flies anyway because Yams don't care what nerds think is impossible.

I don't mind the "inconsistencies", because most of what people are complaining about is just nitpicking that doesn't have much of anything to do with the story being told. I just hope that we're done with setup and can finally get to the final battle next chapter.

Everybody in this chapter was admitting their sins, but Bert still wasn't mentioned when so far he's the biggest elephant in the room when it comes to Reiner / AMJC. They watched Armin devour Bert and felt nothing about it, they participated in a terrorist attack against Liberio and threw a party instead/didn't protest against it, but the moment they betrayed their countries and slaughtered their comrades, suddenly they're evil sinners. It really feels iffy as shit.

Eren should finish what he started, I actually support him, I do understand his anger, his past anger, and everything that has been done to the Paradis Island. The only way to stop the exterior world’s way they think about them, is killing them all (or nearly), otherwise it’s never going to stop. It would be too much of a childish way of actually allowing the alliance to stop him knowing that he’s really REALLY powerful.

I don't get why people are having so much backlash about Eren allowing the Alliance to kill him, it's not a goad of "come get me", it would be hypocritical of him to take away their powers to stop him when he preaches about freedom, because then he'd just want PERSONAL freedom when want he truly wants it freedom for everybody especially Eldians.

@ isayama as a yumihisu shipper stop the Ymir smelling Historia's hair gag it isn't funny :/

I just think Eren doesn't detour from his character cause he's persistent on continuing the rumbling, having his own definition of freedom while he also doesn't take away his friends' power to fight him. It's just kinda frustrating that Eren is so blinded by his concept of freedom and chose this path.

People who think Eren will complete the rumbling are in heavy denial.

I kinda hope that we get to see Hizuru at least once. I also believe that Mikasa deserves to know the truth about her Ackerman blood and that it does not make her a slave in any way. More than anything though I just wanna see her character done justice in this final arc so that people will finally quit complaining about her always being "Eren-obsessed." She is without a doubt one of the most misunderstood characters in the entire series.

I liked the Paths stuff. But I'm bored of the cringe 104th, Isayama please give back Bertholdt I wanna see him, Paths is the perfect opportunity T-T

I maintain that Eren allowing his friends to fight him and potentially die because FREEDOM is fucking weird and OOC because he had no problem taking their freedom away in 112. He lied to their faces (same chapter he stated that ignorance=slavery) and locked them in prison. He also couldn't stand losing anyone close to him for most of the manga (serumbowl, hiding info about Historia, etc.), even if it went against Paradis, and so far nothing states that he suddenly and consciously changed his mind on that. If there is no explanation for his sudden change in behavior then parts of his character just went down the drain for the sake of covering up a plothole (that could easily be resolved by just saying that the founder can't control the shifters......)

I read some theories of Hange come back as a Titan Shifter. The parallel of both Ackermans put their fist on Eren and Hange before they died. Eren came back to life again as Attack Titan after that. There are also similarities between Hange and Xavier, both do research on titans, wearing glasses and I wonder if we would find out who is this person that Zeke could trust, as Xavier mentioned. We've seen Hange almost died 3 times, during the battle with Bertholdt and Reiner revelation, the crystal underground with Kenny's team and Bertbomb. Hange managed to come back again and again. Maybe I'm just being hopeful here (crying again) but I respect if Isayama sensei really killed Hange for good. But but but.. T^T

I'm beyond sick of the alliance. If they win at this point Isayama has officially destroyed his own manga.

No Hanji = nothing to smile neither to hope for in this chapter. I hate Eren for not even reacting to her death.

Isayama's doing a terrible job with the Alliance. I have many reasons to want the rumbling to be stopped, but if I forget for one second that Armin's my fave charac., I need to ask WTH?? Characters say one thing while the narrative says another. Yo, every damn chapter they've been feeling guilty and shitty, yet their constant regretting says they're good people. The heroic sacrifices say they're good people. The refusing to bring the kid although the kid can fckin fly says they're good people. This is more complex than calling an oldman with a career built in genocide HERO then calling these lost as fuck teens SINNERS. Repetition won't make me buy it. Btw, I'm not taking proJeCtiNg five chapters from the end. I refuse to believe these characters are at the same. damn. mindspace as 10 chapters ago. Nah. Losing or winning, this finale should feel dignifying, not pathetic. I'm desperate here. :(

I'm tired of Eren and the alliance. My feelings are with Levi's promise, nothing else. What comes after that (if Levi is able to kill Zeke) it would be interesting (and amazing, I'm sure) conceptually, I will love to read it, but my heart is with our midget. He deserves to rest.

Also Levi...I get why he's still ""muh kill monke"", it makes sense with his character... But that doesn't mean it's not annoying.

I REALLY enjoyed this one

Can't believe that flying titan was a sort of joke since the Marley arc, but now it's a thing uh.

More evidence that freckled Ymir may be alive.

where bert

where IS ZEKE

Where Monke?

Ymir distorting the space and keeping Mikasa, Armin, Connie and Jean away from Eren makes me think she's controlling him.

YOU ARE FREE

There was so much information given to us this chapter. The reveal of the possibility of Falco flying and the possible death of Zeke.

There were some alright points to this chapter but for the most point, it seemed like so many things were forced, the most ridiculous points of this chapter for me were the warrior families living, and Falco deciding he can fly simply because he had a dream

This chapter (like all the others and the others to come) made me cry. 😔

This chapter made sense. Too much sense. All the plot points we’d been expecting like Falco being able to fly, Eren bringing the alliance into Paths to tell them they have to kill him if they want to stop the rumbling, and the folks from Liberio surviving, were all present. I think Isayama is about to throw some wild curveballs and ruin our whole careers

Something's wrong with Eren

Thanks Isym for ruining Armin and make him Annie's waifu

Nice, a little boring but also not disappointed

The alliance was so annoying this chapter. Reiner projecting his pathetic suicidal thoughts into Eren was just absolute cringe. Then Jean and Connie actually saying they’re the same as the guys who killed their friends and families just made me damn near bust a vein. Then Pieck was just being a passive aggressive bitch. I was hoping that at least the 104th would make it out alive but now I straight up want Eren to kill them all. They’re just flat out insufferable, incompetent traitors at this point.

Pieck passive aggressively roasting Armin felt good

Levi is sexy take the bandages off his face and let me see the scar

Levi's really fed up. he doesn't care anymore about eren he just wanted to kill zeke. But I do agree that by killing Zeke, maybe the rumbling will end.

People thinking that Eren became a slave are speedreaders

For me, the Rumbling represents Eren’s own death drive. He’s killing others and wants do die in the process or afterwards. And his talk to the alliance is what his "if you don't fight you don't win" ideology boils down to. Blind, narrow-minded kid!Eren doesn't really see any other outcome other than him completing the Rumbling (aka "winning") or getting killed by his friends before he can complete it. I (heavily) suspect Isayama is going for a third option though.

This arc has highlighted Eren's internal contradictions regarding freedom. We have him forcing his friends to fight, imprisoning them, beating them, gaslighting them about their own free will, but most of all forcing the rumbling onto them, which completely takes away their agency to choose their own fate. I would be disappointed if Isayama has dropped this consistent pattern of Eren contradicting his own ideals of freedom, just to rectify his mistake of making Eren too overpowered due to rule of cool (something I initially feared), so I'm hoping the true reason has to do with Ymir taking the reins and speaking for Eren.

Eren can't help what he wants and believes in and he can't stop his convictions to move foreword, but at the same time he recognises his friends own free will and different convictions and has decided that both sides will never be able to give up their own convinces or meet at a middle ground and has decided to just let things play out.

Eren is resigned to his fate to rumble the world, but he will not command his friends to do anything. He is willing to die by their hands.

Eren prizes freedom above all else. If someone uses their freedom to try to kill him, he wouldn't mind

Eren isn't sure if he's right so he wants them to have the chance to stop him if they feel so strongly

Sooo due to the Warhammer nutcracker incident, does that mean Falco has a portion of the Warhammer, or something?

Spectacular chapter completely closing the possibility of dialogue between Eren and Aliance. It's good to see that Eren remains firm with his actions and hasn't changed his psychology of freedom out of the blue. Although many people think that Eren wants to die, I'm sure that he will fight against the Alliance to survive and carry out his plan to destroy humanity.

Still a Beruani shipper...and...OMF ANNIE IS THE 2ND SASHA SHE WANTS TO EAT GIVE MY BABY FOOD

Still feels like buildup ready for the final showdown already

Telling the story as if the alliance stands a chance, or has anything close to a complete picture of Eren, is still dumb

historia pov when

Honestly I think everything about Annie is forced and she never should have come back.

Hope Jean survives 💯

Hope will reveal historia's baby connection to the series

I believe in Isayama

I believe that Annie got the ability to harden by eating part of Reiner, I think by revealing her ability yams intends to lay foundation for Annie getting wings as well and joining falco in the sky fuck ya

I hope Annie's father dies in front of her

I hope any inconsistencies in Eren's character get clarified later.

I hope more is discussed about Historias child

I hope My beloved Eren kills levi and armin

I just can’t wait a pray that MAPPA don’t fail us💀

I don't know man why the fuck does a flying titan exist

AC130 INBOUND, wait, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT BIRD THING AND WHY DOES IT HAVE BOMBS IN ITS HANDS

Isayama is a hack

isayama never misses

isayama the goat, incredible as usual

#snk poll #snk polls #snk poll results #snk 133 #snk chapter 133

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alewyren · 3 years

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I dislike redemption arc culture.

I hate seeing arguments over which characters are “irredeemable,” and this notion that every villain story has to be a morally didactic narrative in which the bad guy gets punished, the end.

I’m almost tempted to say we were all spoiled by having Zuko as a formative experience, because he’s really just the picture perfect redemption arc. He started out as a legit villain, but he never did anything too atrocious, had a tragic backstory that explained why he was like that, and went through three whole seasons of gradual character development. Like, Zuko was an amazing character. That’s the problem, though; he set our expectations too high for what “the perfect redemption arc” should be. Everyone expects their “reformed villain” characters to follow those same beats, but not every story is that cut and dry. There are lines between redemption and reformation, reformation and rehabilitation, rehabilitation and just... continuing to exist but no longer hurting anyone, and there’s a lot of nuance lost when people try to cram all that into the box of “redemption arc.”

Gonna be bringing a lot of different examples to the table here, but let’s start with Azula for ease of transition. She went through the same abuse that Zuko did, but she never got a redemption arc in ATLA proper. Some people say this isn’t fair. I disagree. This is not to say I don’t think she should be afforded the opportunity for post-canon character growth, because I absolutely do. I fully think she is capable of Getting Better, and spinoff media has consistently portrayed her as a sympathetic character. But like... she’s done some shit. She was a straight up war criminal, and emotionally abusive towards basically everyone in her social circle. I understand why. She was a 14 year old raised in an environment that rewarded that behavior, and never given a healthy outlet for her aggression.

The difference, in my opinion, is this: Zuko was fundamentally a good person from the start. Far from perfect, but he has a strong sense of values even as a child. Azula is not. Redemption for someone like Azula would look much different than it did for Zuko. Besides, in ATLA proper she was already filling an important villain role. She’d need her own show. (Which would be awesome, actually.)

But I think that’s where you have to ask the question: what even is a redemption arc? Is it any story where a villain stops being a villain? Is there a scale for like, “must do X amount of good deeds equal to Y bad deeds to qualify for redemption”? Must they be sufficiently punished for their bad deeds? What if reformation is possible without punishment--is punishment for its own sake truly justice? The focus people have on penance and atonement feels very baked in Christian moral philosophy. People don’t work like that. There’s not a cosmic scale of right and wrong, or a cosmic sin counter, there’s just... actions and their immediate impact. Bad people being let off the hook too easily can leave a bad taste in your mouth, and there are of course things with unfortunate real world implications which can’t be divorced from real-world context which are... irresponsible to allow in the hands of Certain Groups, but I hate this notion of “villains must be punished appropriately for their crimes, always, even if they have extenuating circumstances, even if they have demonstrated the capacity for personal growth, because that personal growth will never negate their misdeeds.”

In real life, it’s different. In real life, you can never be sure what’s going on in another person’s head. But the prison system of justice is fundamentally broken. People are rarely fundamentally evil, but there are some people who are too twisted and dangerous to society to be allowed to live without, at the very least, constant supervision. True evil is banal, rooted in social systems, not individual “bad people.” People have individual will, but ultimately they’re just the products of the environment and systems that fostered them. Setting aside the questions of whether people can be born evil or at what age you become personally responsible for your actions, you will get bad apples in any sufficiently large group of people. If someone has to be punished and removed from society, that’s not a success of justice. The fact that they reached that point in the first place is a failure of society in and of itself.

In fiction, technically everyone is redeemable. You can get into the heads of the bad guys and do basically whatever you want with them. Fiction should be responsible when dealing with real-world issues that affect real people, but it does not have to be morally didactic. Sometimes there just... isn’t an easy, morally didactic answer for dealing with morally complicated characters or situations. And more importantly, sometimes the morally didactic answer isn’t the narratively interesting answer. 9 out of 10 times, what’s more interesting to read about? A horrible villain being put to death, or a horrible villain being forced to live and grow?

Some hypothetical examples to ponder, purely in the context of fiction.

Horrible war criminal villain with a body count in the millions has all memories of their crimes wiped, or is forcibly brainwashed into being a better person. Setting aside the ethics of brainwashing: are they still required to “repent”? Would a victim still be justified in seeking penance from this guilt-free shell? Would this change at all depending on who was responsible for the mind-wipe?

More realistic: horrible war criminal villain with a body count in the millions straight up retires. Gets older. Bloodlust, national zeal, whatever once motivated them to do such evil loses its edge. They fall in love. Start a family. As they grow as a person, learn the value of life, the weight of their crimes starts to sink in. They atone in little ways, through little random acts of kindness and helping the people around them, but for one reason or another (not wanting to risk harm to their family, knowing they’ll be tortured for information? you decide) don’t turn themselves into the proper justice system and are never punished. Should they be punished, or allowed to continue existing? Would this change at all depending on the surrounding political circumstances, i.e.: whether their public execution would hold any symbolic value, whether affected groups are calling for their death? Does it matter at all in deciding justice whether this hypothetical villain feels personal guilt or regret over their war crimes? Why or why not?

Child villains. IRL there are documented cases of violent crime in children as young as grade school age, not all of whom had violent backgrounds. Should they be held to the same standards as adult villains, even if the scale of their crimes are the same? What’s the cutoff age? Are all villains under 18 capable of rehabilitation, no matter how horrible their crimes? How about 16? 14? 12? What about villains whose ages aren’t really clear, ie Cell from DBZ being like, six?

How much does backstory matter? Should it matter if there’s a good reason someone is Like That, or should their actions be judged as-is? It doesn’t matter to the victims whether or not the villain had a bad childhood, right? Moreover, does it matter at all whether someone is “fundamentally a good person,” at least insofar as genuinely caring about the people around them and caring about a moral code? People do evil things for reasons other than “being evil people.”

Morally bankrupt person who regularly fantasizes violent harm on the people around them, wholly selfish with no love for any other human being, fundamentally incapable of meaningful self-reflection or growth. Just a complete piece of shit all around. But they never have, and never will, commit any crimes, either due to some divine ordinance or just plain self-preservation/fear of getting caught. They might, at worst, just be a toxic asshole, but not one who holds any power over others. Should they be punished solely for their moral character, rather than actions?

There aren’t always easy answers. It’s okay to acknowledge that, and it’s okay to tackle hard moral questions like this in fiction. And I hate seeing this boiled down to “stop trying to redeem villains who are Actually Horrible People” or whatever. Especially in kids’ media which takes an optimistic stance on people being capable of change in the first place. Y’all gotta stop holding it to the same level of moral realism as gritty stuff for adults.

On the whole, I think we should do away with the term “redemption” in the context of morality entirely. Like redemption arc, redemption equals death, what does that mean? It implies one has sufficiently made up for their past deeds, that that’s the gold standard, but is that really ever possible? Like I said, there’s not a cosmic good deeds | bad deeds counter for every person, or at least not one that living people have any way of knowing about. And that’s a flawed way of thinking to begin with. Those bad deeds can never be erased, ever. There plenty of examples of villains who commit crimes they can never realistically atone for. Regardless of whether they want to atone in the first place, it’s like I said: in fiction, it’s often just... more fun to force them to live and deal with the consequences. But on the flipside, there are so, so many people who see themselves as “good” and use that to justify their own bad deeds. Which ties back into what I said about the whole discourse reeking of Christian moral philosophy, because lmfao @ corruption in the catholic church.

The point is. There are shades of grey. Not everything has to be a full-blown bad guy to good guy redemption arc. You don’t need to “properly atone for your sins” to be worthy of life or love.

Here are some better questions to ask than “is this character redeemable”:

Is it believable, from what we know of this villain as a character, that they are capable of becoming a good, law-abiding citizen?

How about capable of love?

Guilt?

Are they capable of any personal growth whatsoever?

Are they capable of being a positive impact on the lives of the people around them?

Is it actively harmful to leave them alive, even with clipped wings?

Is it interesting to leave them alive?

How morally didactic is the narrative as a whole?

How much forgiveness are they offered, versus how much could they possibly ever deserve?

How abstracted is this character from reality, ie: are there any real world parallels that make it uncomfortable to frame this character in a sympathetic light? (be careful not to fall into a black and white abuser/victim dichotomy)

Would further punishment or suffering be productive? (Productive, not justified, that’s a key distinction--punishment for its own sake is just pointless cruelty.)

Even the most vile, irredeemable bastards can still be dragged like... an inch. And that’s still a fun and valuable story in and of itself, even if it’s nothing remotely approaching a redemption arc and they’d very much still deserve to rot in Hell by the end of it. I don’t believe Hell is real, as much as I personally wish it were sometimes, but like. If it were, or in fictional universes where it is.

But also, there really are some characters and botched “redemption arcs” that just come off insanely uncomfortable. And there is a subjective aspect to that as well, but more than once I’ve seen people say “X villain did not deserve redemption/forgiveness” and 9 times out of 10 I’m like “that’s... really not what they got, though?”

It’s complicated.

#idk how coherent it is #i just saw a tweet that annoyed me #''villains deserve happiness and redemption arcs *guy who murdered 20 million people* no not him''#i don't even entirely disagree but it's... complicated #musings

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some-creep · 4 years

Text

CREEP RANKS EVERY SONG IN NIER... AUTOMATA (mostly) BY TITLE

Because, like, no one played Gestalt. Also this game has more songs.

Significance Like. I guess. It’s a title you can use. What is significant? We don’t know. The characters don’t know. They are struggling to find out. We all are. What is meaning? What really matters? I don’t know but we’re all crying. 8/10

City Ruins – Rays of Light / Shade Plays in the ruins of the city. Exactly as advertised. Sounds sad like you might imagine. 9/10

Peaceful Sleep This is the Resistance camp right? Peaceful things don’t tend to happen there honestly. At least not as we keep going. Sounds like a sleepy JRPG town though. Ok title for the mood it gives. I like this song a lot so I’m cheating and giving it more points than I know it deserves as just, like, a title. 8/10

Memories of Dust Sand is dusty. What memories? We’re making them. Cool title. Sounds like a YA novel though. 9/10

Birth of a Wish Genuinely often get confused with the Silent Hill 2 bonus story Born from a Wish whenever I try to remember what this song is called. This Cannot Continue / 10

The Color of Depression This is like… a really cool title. Thanks. That Scanner boy is not gonna live the happy family life you all for some reason keep suggesting he is. Bad things are gonna happen to him. He dies anyway. 11/10

Amusement Park Yeah. I guess. We certainly are in the amusement park level. Creep why does this one rank so much lower than City Ruins which was also just “name of location”. Amusement park is not a cool title. City Ruins is a cool title. 7/10

A Beautiful Song Would you say Simone has girlpower? Would you say Simone successfully used her girlpower to kill and consume countless androids and also turn them into near lifeless weapons and body jewelry? 9/10

Voice of No Return Sad title. Sad song. Exactly as advertised once again. I feel sad listening to the Automata OST most of the time. Is this quest complete in the camp? I think so. Anyway it’s really sad. I love to cry. 11/10

Grandma – Destruction Um so this is like. Genuinely a horrible title. It reminds me of the title of a darkweb video which I will say no more on. This song is REALLY good its a shame this title is so… uh. Bad. It’s just bad. 1/10

Faltering Prayer – Dawn Breeze / Starry Sky This is another really cool title. This game is about like… life after god. I’m not here to get thematic. I say in a list entirely about if the song fits the theme. Anyway this is a cool title. The song again… sounds sad. One of them is a music box which I love. Cheating again. 10/10

Emil’s Shop EVERY DAY’S A SALE. EVERY SALE’S A WIN. 12/10!!

Treasured Times The fact this plays after Emil’s shop on the OST is the biggest tonal whiplash in the world. This song makes me feel an emotion I cannot describe. It’s something like sadness but not quite. This isn’t a review of the songs, just the title. But reading the title makes me feel that emotion too but stronger when I think about it. I don’t know. 9/10

Vague Hope – Cold Rain / Spring Rain Good title… Thematically very appropriate. Not COOL like some of the others but it feels right feels canon. I like it. It’s just the city ruins quest complete song but it also plays in one of the fucking… DLC fights. That makes me extra sad. 10/10

End of the Unknown Which unknown was ended. Genuinely think when this plays I had more unknowns than knowns. This song sounds like every song from the Gestalt DLC. 6/10.

Pascal At least Automata has far fewer “named after a character” songs. They just have named after a place songs. I love Pascal so if I give this a low score he might be upset. 8/10

Forest Kingdom It really… the forest huh. Random but one of the songs in Code Vein does a vocal thing that always reminds me of this song for some reason. That has nothing to do with this game or this songs title at all I just wanted to tell you. Long Live The Forest King / 10

Dark Colossus – Kaiju This song is also in Gestalt. It’s cooler here. More stakes. Song title suggests less stakes though? That’s kinda weird. Because of this it loses points. I’m sorry. 7/10

Copied City Dude I left this one off the list when I first typed it out lol. Someone not to @ anyone told me this was based on Nier’s village. Lie to me again. I don’t know what City is being Copied. One of them. It reminds me more of the Cathedral City from DoD3. Which is a bad horrible game that I completed 100%. 8/10

Wretched Weaponry Not to be confused with Wretched Automatons. Is this like, a remix? My ears don’t work so I don’t know. Don’t inform me because I love being stupid. Anyway, in the narrative it makes sense. It’s a good, cool title. Song is softer than the title would suggest. 9/10

Possessed by Disease COOL SONG TITLE. Thank you. This plays… somewhere. Uh. Hm. I’ve 100% completed this game like three times. 9/10

Broken Heart You think you’re gonna hear a sad song? SURPRISE. Sinister as hellllll. Subverted expectations baby. MCU take notes. I’ve never seen a movie in the MCU. Loving the dark tones in this. Broken heart but the emotion isn’t just sad. GOOD STUFF. 10/10

Mourning Again. You think it’s gonna be sad? But BOOM. It isn’t. I mean it still is, but in a dark way. These aren’t song reviews. These are title reviews. But if a title suggests one thing and delivers another that’s still a valid point right? I don’t know. Hey wait isn’t this just Shadowlord’s Castle? Yonah / 10

Dependent Weakling Well, it’s no Song of the Ancients – Fate, but it’ll do. In all seriousness, this is like, a great song title for Eve’s boss battle. Y’know, because he relied so heavily on Adam and all’a that. Maybe a little on the nose. Maybe a little rude. Eve sucks / 10

Rebirth & Hope Sounds hopeful. Plays during ending A where we see a Rebirth cos 9S super doesn’t die. This song is literally 30 seconds long why am I even bothering. Oh, right, because it’s on the OST at all. 30 second songs / 10

War & War Gentlemen, you can’t fight in here, this is the war room. It… sounds like a war room song. A preparing for a big battle song. Once again, exactly as advertised. Plays before a big battle. It really thematic naming! Peace was never an option. 8/10

Crumbling Lies Words cannot express how much I adore this song. First of all, title is on point. It’s the song that plays when you get to Route C. Literally the moment I fell in love with the game. The Bunker is destroyed, which, again… maybe it’s a bit on the nose. I don’t care. This is the perfect song title to the perfect song. I will die on this hill. 12/10

Widespread Illness Red Eye except it’s robots now. Very thematically appropriate. Everyone is dying. There’s nothing you can do to cure it except kill them. They’re incredibly infectious. Zombie Virus but with Robots. Can you tell I don’t remember what it’s called? I’m writing this at 1am and I’ve decided it’s funnier if I don’t look anything up. Sounds very somber… I like it. 9/10

Fortress of Lies Not to be dramatic but when I read this English title I was like MMMMMMMNNN because like. I get it. It plays in the Bunker. Which… is built on lies. Again. Incredibly on the nose but when I learned what the song was called I just fucking DIED the first time. I’m stupid. I don’t care. 11/10

Song of the Ancients – Atonement Another song I died when I learned the title of. Devola and Popola in that game have nothing to atone for. They are atoning for sing they did not commit. Punished for the crimes of another set of Androids, possibly thousands of miles away. It’s not fair. They have nothing to atone for. They’ve done nothing wrong. 12/10 crying creeps.

Blissful Death FUCK. This one plays in the Devola and Popola like. Text Adventure part. Which is just. I love it so much. No one dies in that though. Well… maybe someone does. It’s not impossible that Popola hurt someone. It’s suggested that, maaaaybe she did. No one stops. No one Stops.

Emil – Despair Emil’s life has quite literally only been despair. Please don’t bully him with your song titles like this… 9/10

Alien Manifestation Vintage meme of that guy from the history channel with the impact font that just says Aliens. This game has aliens, I will give you that. They’re all dead though. I guess the machines are aliens but. Eh. Wait doesn’t this play in the castle? There aren’t even aliens there what the fuck. 5/10

The Tower There’s a tower. This plays there. Thank you. Also the name of a tarot card I think? That could be cool if I knew a single goddamn thing about tarot cards. I don’t. 6/10

Bipolar Nightmare Cool flying section. Has anyone found Grun skip yet? Because the bounty for that was like. A lot of money. Vaguely a cool song title. I kinda like it. Although for some reason it reminds me of The Evil Within’s Japanese title, Psychobreak. So I think I like it less because of that. Not the worst title, but maybe the lowest of the COOL EDGY song titles. Fucking love the piano part in this one though. 7/10

The Sound of the End Really super cool and sexy song title. 2B is going to die but she can’t let anyone else get hurt because of it. She’s already done so much damage. This song is really dramatic sounding. The title is dramatic. Love this one a lot. The actual playable segment is kind of a struggle. But I think that’s the point… 10/10

Weight of the World / End of YoRHa I once got into an internet fight because I said this song is about every character except 9S because of the line “I’m only one girl”. I was corrected that the Japanese version is basically EXCLUSIVELY about 9S. None of this is relevant at all I just wanted to remember it. I still do not like 9S. Thematically a brilliant title. Everyone feels like they must do so much… but you cannot bear the weight of the world alone. Ending E legitimately makes me cry. Whenever I think about the messages from other players supporting me? It’s a lot. What the fuck. 12/10

#nier #nier automata #long post #creep ranks

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deanky · 4 years

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Here are some little like ‘reviews’ of all the Oingo Boingo albums... Under cut LOL... I just like to talk about Oingo Boingo I am so obsessed right now they have become tied for Mr. Bungle as favorite band... But anyways... Hope you enjoy ^_^

Only a Lad: Very fun sound as a whole. I enjoy how like poppy and synthy it is and stuff and that one weird electronic voice Mr. Elf man does in like every song. I remember like actually not liking most of the songs first time I heard it and I’m not sure why because I enjoy 9/10 out of them a lot now... But then again I like almost never really like an album the first time I hear it LOL I have a mean soul. A lot of the songs have pretty evil words in them but I have like slight respect for how much hatred Danny Elfman seems to have had for everyone on the entire planet at the time of writing. And for the majority of songs I cannot really complain about because I think it fits theme of like very happy sounding song but nasty words in it duality of man and such. Only one I really do not like is Capitalism because it has the whiniest lyrics of all and also it just does not sound good like as a song I think I am sorry. I must say it. Forgive me. I was so thrilled hearing Nasty Habits for the first time because I really like songs that sound like a homosexual cartoon villain would sing them to you. Well that’s all. Only a Lad itself was one of the first songs of theirs I heard except sped up and it had a picture of anime Bart Simpson on it. I like it. Good song. Recently I cannot stop getting it and Little Girls stuck in my head. That’s all

Nothing to Fear: Everything about this album is sooooo sooo good it is like so incredibly catered specifically to my tastes. One of the few albums I have loved immediately as soon as I heard I finished listening for the first time and was immediately like oh this is going in my favorites. I add some points also for absolutely incredible beautiful cover art it’s got weird colors weird animals logo made of worm things it’s so beautiful it makes me want to cry. I think it gets SLIGHTLY weaker in its second half but that is hard not to do with albums. That said though a lot of songs that I felt were slightly worse at first have risen to being my favorites of the album like Why’d We Come and Reptiles and Samurai. Didn’t know what to think about Running on a Treadmill at first but I think it works very well in its simplicity and it is very catchy I can imagine people like singing it on actual treadmill and like jumping around abd being in zero gravity for some reason it is like that music video where they are in the plane but it is treadmills. Well, hi. The only ones that feel like slightly slightly worse to me are Whole Day Off and Islands but I think I am growing to like both of those a lot more too. My favorites though are Grey Matter and Insects and Wild Sex and also Nothing to Fear the titular song and Why’d We Come and Reptiles and Samurai which is over half of the songs so I think that’s good. I remember listening to Private Life like 5 times before listening to the rest of the album but I always forgot how it went immediately after not sure why because I’d say it is a reasonably catchy song. Anyways INCREDIBLE album. Rude lyrics? Still a thing but tend to be much more agreeable like it is obvious who is being made fun of in like Grey Matter and Nothing to Fear and I say the fun making is well deserved! Even though I may be the target of Grey Matter I understand and I am sorry. The general sound is also amazing I LOVE all the weird noises and metal stuff and clanks and clonks and all the xylophone. Dude the xylophone is so good. Synth and xylophone and guitar they are all best friends and they sound so cool together and I think xylophones should be more widely used in like “pop” music as a whole whatever that defines. I keep wanting to start a band and just play xylophone. Like what’s anybody gonna do to stop me? I love xylophone. That’s all

Good for Your Soul: I wasn’t so impressed by this one the first time I heard it but it quickly wormed its way up to a very close #2 and possibly even tied with Nothing to Fear as my favorite album of theirs. The album art on this one is also really good I will say! I felt like slightly let down at first by it just because it’s so hard to live up to how beautiful of a cover Nothing to Fear has in my mind. But its art is so cool too. Muscle man in wobbly world. What’s more to love (Side note I enjoy the song Wobbly World it is not an Oingo Boingo song it is by Devo I should listen to more Devo.) The first time I listened the only songs that REALLY jumped out at me super hard were No Spill Blood and Fill the Void, and I think those 2 are still tied as my favorites. I LOVE the whole like rhythm No Spill Blood has going on and the weird animal noises and also the lyrics they are not about Animal Farm they are about The Island of Dr. Moreau he did those surgeries don’t you know he made the animals have to be men and they were like are we not men but they didn’t say they were Devo sorry I keep talking about Devo in this Oingo Boingo album review. And BTW Fill the Void also is really great and has possibly my favorite set of lyrics in any song ever to exist which is the part like “Every little thing is a piece of a larger thing / Every little fish is a tyrant of the sea / Every little atom is a master of his family / Every single piece calls my name / What do they want from me?” It is so good it makes me go so insane I love it. Another song that works really well in just being a simple thing. It is so nice and cool it feels like being in space and you are in one of the levels of one of those Kirby spinoff games where he’s like a ball and you’re rolling him around NOT Canvas Curse the other ones like Dream Course I think. Anyways though while I wasn’t super big on all the other songs they ended up like slowly coming back into my head one by one until I was obsessed with all of them. First it was Pictures of You. Then it was Nothing Bad Ever Happens to Me (would put that in my top 3 as well) and then Dead or Alive and then Little Guns and then Cry of the Vatos and then Wake Up It’s 1984 and then Sweat and then the titular song AND Who Do You Want to Be it was like. Wow. What a world. WDYWTB + Good for Your Soul + Sweat were the 3 that didn’t really do it for me as much for a while but now I’ve been really enjoying them too so I think I can say I love every single song on this album. It is becoming my best friend. It’s sooo good. It feels like living in one of those fake Utopian cities and there’s actually something sinister going on behind the scenes. Like I will start seeing colors and freaking about it any time soon. Random memory that unlocked in me is that I used to be incredibly obsessed with The Book Thief and its concept of death when I was in like 6th or 7th grade like uncannily so but I never talked about the book ever I just hid it away in my mind. My sad story. Sorry everyone. That’s all

So-Lo: This one is technically just Danny Elfman but you know it is an Oingo Boingo album man they got the whole band there they were just having licensing issues because new label and stuff is my understanding. And they were like. Well let’s take advantage of this and do some less standard Oingo Boingo songs. That is how I grasp this situation I don’t know how correct I am her I actually don’t know that much about O.B. outside of the songs at this point I still cannot name any non-Danny Elfman member and I am really sorry for this and must learn to atone for my ways. This is a good album though. Once again has really good cover art I will say. It’s like well hello there Mr. Elf man you’ve got some eyes sliding off your face and some funny colors and are controlling some little puppet things maybe it’s like you do you man LOL am I right or am I right! I like this album. This was yet another one where I listened the first time and was like. Man I’m not really feeling it with any of these songs. However I do enjoy that they all sound kind of like they were recorded on a Sega Genesis. I mean it does have very Genesis-y noises I know this was the 80s and it would be more accurate to say the Sega Genesis soudns like this album but you know what I mean. Anyways nothing grabbed me at first but upon my second listen I became extremely obsessed with the song “Go Away” and then listened to it on repeat for 2 hours straight and it still hasn’t got old for me I still like it very good song. Definitely my favorite. Tied with Everybody Needs which is also a very fun song I became similarly enamored with like a day later but didn’t listen to quite as much LOL. But anyways I went through that oh-so-familiar process which I must warn you is also the process I go through for every single album after this! - Where all the other songs started worming their way into my head and I was like oh brother I am beginnign to like them all now! Good for Your Soul, I think, marked like more obvious change from songs tending to be like “This is what Danny Elfman thinks of the world phrased in a humorous way” to more like actual stories and stuff, although the former wasn’t rid of entirely and the latter hadn’t just popped up or anything. But I think this album continued that in a really nice way and while it can be vague, listening to it I always feel that there is like one solid story all the song narratives go throughout. Someone pointed out in like Youtube Comments that Go Away feels like the sadder side of Cool City and to me it feels like the whole album is kind of in that vein. Seems to me like all the songs are in the Cool City itself and you’re seeing like the various different horrible things that go on in that town and horrible people that live in it. Yknow? Like Tough as Nails and Everybody Needs make me think of like various awful weird a$$ holbs living there and then stuff like Sucker for Mystery and Lightning and It Only Makes Me Laugh. Well they are clearly from the perspectives of some guy. The same guy? Maybe maybe not I don’t feel like they are the same guy. But it feels like they are like experiencing weird horrible sh*t in this horrible town that is filled with racists but also gay people. I like this album I enjoy it

Dead Man’s Party: OK I am sorry to say. This is a good album but it hasn’t COMPLETELY grown on me yet. But I DO like it a lot. I enjoy it it’s good. I really really love Just Another Day and the titular song and Heard Somebody Cry and Nobody Lives Forever and Weird Science which is over half of them so not bad all things considered. And I do not DISLIKE any songs. But the other ones haven’t quite grown on me yet. This album does kind of shift into like the more commercial stuff it’s not like generic pop or nothing. But it is like slightly strange to get used to. That said. The songs I like I REALLY like thye are so good. No One Lives Forever is an incredible incredible song just like Nasty Habits it fulfills my love of songs that sound like they are being sung by evil guys in cartoons but are not they’re actually being sung by Danny Elfman who is an evil guy in real life. Sorry I didn’t mean it he probably is not that evil I’m sure he’s perfectly nice Mr. Elf man if you are reading this I apologize. Anyways though. I like the general sound of this album I will say! I think though it has thing going on where like, in my mind, some of the songs feel like way too happy and overly peppy almost like mocking. I have a weird mind and a weird way of processing things and I am also incredibly afraid of everything on this planet so keep that in mind BTW I am sorry. But like Stay and Fool’s Paradise and Help Me and Same Man I was Before all have that kind of feeling to me, it’s like these are so cheerful and cheesy sounding to me it kind of scares me a little bit. However... I am starting to feel this less with Help me and Stay, and also I felt this a little bit with Heard Somebody Cry at first as well and I no longer do. So maybe I’m still going through the motions of song-liking as I do. As I said though the favorites on here are incredible. Weird Science may have been written for strange movie deal and they may be really saddened by its memory or maybe just the music video’s memory but it’s a very fun song nevertheless. Dead Man’s Party itself it really fun true classic. Very orange song to me. It’s orange and purple like I hear it and I am like ah yes I am experiencing orange and purple. Very nice shades of orange and purple though, and they are mixing together in pleasing ways and throwing a big party and everyone’s invited you might even say it’s a dead man’s party heh heh heh (grins devilishly). I think this like takes the kind of narratives in Good for Your Soul and So-Lo and like takes it to best form! In that it has a very clear yet not super specific narrative going on throughout the whole album, I really like whenever an album has songs set up so pleasingly and nice like that it makes me sad when they’re just like in random order. But of course this album is all about death and accepting it and stuff and like all the different feelings of sadness and happiness and stuff that all go into it! And I like its message a lot, like obviously you shouldn’t want to die but don’t fear it. It has a very nice depiction of the afterlife. I like all the stuff in Beetlejuice and Corpse Bride with their similar interpretations too although Beetlejuice isn’t quite as positive about it LOL. I want to watch Corpse Bride again. I want to see another singing Danny Elfman skeleton. I want to see the Peter Lorre worm. My one complaint with the album narrative is that Weird Science goes at the end it kinda ruins the whole story a little bit but I can’t fault them because like where COULD they put it? I think it might work kind of well as the first song because like trying to make frankenstein guy before all the accepting death stuff makes sense. But also. It would be a weird opener. Also the album art is so incredible I love it I want to join their party it’s beautiful. I did not mean for this review to get as long as it did. They just keep getting longer each album I’m sorry the length does not show my opinion but I just keep getting more excited each album

Boi-Ngo: Will admit this one is my least favorite. And once again my bias shows because it has cover art I don’t like very much. It’s just real guys looking at you. Where’s the funny Oingo Boingo touch where’s the charm people!??!? it makes me sad. And also, as a whole, while I DO like most of the songs I feel like I don’t like them as much as I like any of the ones on other albums, and it also has my least favorite song I’ve heard other than Capitalism which is We Close Our Eyes sorry I’ve seen a lot of people who really like that one but it just scares me. It feels so insincere to me it makes me feel that thing once more where it’s like this song is waaayyy to happy and peppy to not feel like it’s kind of sinister deep down. I apologize. It is a fun album however! I think it kind of goes back more to “Danny Elfman’s humorous observations about life”, which is not always a bad thing, but it seems to revert a little bit too much back to like him just being kind of whiny and not making much of a point in like, say, New Generation. Although it is a nice song I think! It scares me when he goes like now he’s got you by the balls. I understand the point of that lyric. But it frightens me. I think my favorites are Home Again, Elevator Man, Not My Slave (although lyrics feel like slightly concerning), Outrageous, and Pain. Which once again is more than half the album so shows what I know complaining about it this whole time.

Dark at the End of the Tunnel: I feel bad for this album because before listening to it I always forgot it existed, like I listened to Boi-Ngo and was like aw man I only have one album left! Oh wait nevermind I have 2. And now I keep fearing there’s another one I forgot not including like the live albums and singles stuff. Maybe there is.... haunting me But anyways... I already did like incomprehensible post talking about this one earlier LOL which inspired me to do more equally incomprehensible things on all the other albums hence this post. So I’ve already said a lot of what I have to say about this and hope not to repeat it too much... but... LOL I was so afraid wondering if I would actually like this one or not... I wanted to just because of how awesome the cover art is. And I was afraid because I wasn’t really a big fan of most of the songs at first. But I think with this album and the whole Boingo era they were moving towards like more orchestral stuff and changing their sound and all... So it was a bit strange to get used to at first but the more I listened the more I enjoyed everything I guess like taking in all the instruments and textures and what not. A lot of the songs in this one also feel like kind of creepily cheery but I think it works best for this album specifically, because as I’ve said before it feels very intentional - there is like whole dual thing of more dark mysterious sections and light-hearted happy sections in most of the songs. Although my top 3 are all songs that mostly just have the former going on... Right to Know, Long Breakdown, and Run Away. I also really enjoy When the Lights Go Out, Skin, Out of Control (though it still feels like vaguely scary to me LOL), and Glory Be... But I keep finding myself getting all the others stuck in my head as well. So still growing on me LOL! I am beginning to appreciate all the other songs more for those cheerier parts as well yknow... I think this whole album has a very fantastical vibe to it LOL but definitely like, a very old fantasy. Like they discovered this album in a giant wizard’s tower like ten thousand years ago and now it’s been unearthed again. But it was created by a child wizard who was like 5 years old. But still had a wizard beard. That’s the guy on the cover I’ve decided. Little wizard from long ago. However... It does feel like it’s kind of setting up something. Like all the songs do... whole album is good but feels like it’s kind of a preparation for the next one. Which doesn’t make it bad! Just like I feel like it’s kind of part of a set... Incomplete on its own yknow? I would probably rank it in my lower 4 of all the albums but I’ll still say I enjoyed it quite a bit, that is no insult. And I like wizards

Boingo: This album is SO good dude. I’m glad this is what they left off on. Really great finishing album... I have a weird timeline involving this one because it was actually the first album I listened to, my dad showed it to me, but I only ever listened up to Lost Like This before very recently and by recently I mean today and I am still listening to Changes for the first time as I write this which is probably a bad idea but I am doing it anyways. Anyways though... The first O.B. songs my dad showed to me ever were Insanity from this album and Dead Man’s Party the song, and despite how different their two sources are they both have extremely similar structure I think. And so I kind of painted this picture of like all Oingo Boingo songs being similarly structured around 6-7 minutes and mostly repeating the same different sections in slightly different ways. And I am pleased that this album kind of fulfills that - a lot of the songs are like 2-3x longer than they really need to be but I enjoy that because I love long songs. As I mentioned earlier, DatEotT feels like it’s just the beginning of something, and this provides a very satisfying ‘second half’. I think it works well by itself too, though! Boingo marks such a big change musically from everything else before even DatEoT but it somehow stays very true to their old spirit anyways.. But everything feels so much grander and I really like it. Almost every song has a pretty wistful melancholy feel but at the same time ALSO almost every song but like a different set of almost every song is very big and bombastic. So it definitely has that “well this is our last album goodbye” feel to it. But it’s OK. It’s like a big grand finale. If there was a like an Oingo Boingo musical that had every single song for some reason and lasted like 10 hours I feel like the other albums could be switched around the whole thing regardless of their actual releases, but this one would HAVE to be last. Adding to that, I feel like it really like takes a lot of the earlier concepts I’ve liked a lot in previous albums and had them return. Like So-Lo, many of the songs have pretty different narratives, but all feel like they can be one loose intertwined thing. Pedestrian Wolves and Lost Like This definitely feel connected for one... and like Insanity and Changes provide like nice bookends where the first is like analyzing the world around us and then the second is analyzing the self. Side note. Danny Elfman is always referring to himself as stupid in Oingo Boingo songs. And sometimes it’s just like PoV character or something. But it ticks me off a little bit because he is like clearly not stupid he is like a crazy evil genius. But ALSO I’m not really sure what exactly the whole story of Boingo is, but it just feels connected in some sort of mysterious way yknow? Maybe it will appear to me later... If Dark at the End of the Tunnel was created by a little five year old wizard ten thousand years ago, this was created by the same wizard when he was reaching the end of his life and was in the wizard’s nursing home in like the 1920s. It still feels like mildly aged, there is SOMETHING about it that feels like it’s meant to be played on like an extremely old awful record player, but it has a much more modern feeling. It almost feels like another interpretation of the afterlife... Maybe that more Beetlejuice kind where it’s just like real life at first but if you peek around the corner you’ll find all the weird sandworms and colorful ghosts and stuff. Anyways though. This album is so good. Not my favorite right now, but definitely in top 3, like at the moment of writing this I would say. #1 is Nothing to Fear. #2 is Good for Your Soul. #3 is Boingo. But I am loving it soooo much on my first actual full listen even though I’ve had time to like absorb half the songs already admittedly. So it might end up being my favorite after all! I think my 3 favorite tracks also on this are Insanity, Lost Like This, and Hey!. Random completely unrelated parallel to my other favorite band. I like that they have a song called Hey! and Mr. Bungle has a song called Hi! It all fits together. And they both have the exclamation point. But anyways ALSO since I’ve only finished listening for the first time Changes finished while I was writing this BTW. I am still figuring out my opinions on the rest of the songs. Don’t think the I am the Walrus cover QUITE does it for me, I like Spider and War Again but not sure if they’re favorites. I hated Can’t See/Useless the first time I listened but now I like it how about that! ONE MORE thing I like about this. Is its songs feel like continuations of stuff in other albums. Although that may just be because of similar themes! Like, War Again feels like a continuation of both Nothing to Fear and Little Guns but it’s about similar subjects to both. And Tender Lumplings, Little Girls, no real explanation needed there. Insanity and Nasty Habits match up pretty well, with both just being like about hating the world although Nasty Habits is more specific than that LOL. Mary is a girl who is unfairly ostracized, Johnny of Only a Lad is a boy who is unfairly praised, you know. And also one more thing ONE more I know this one ALSO kinda has the classic Danny Elfman yells about things stuff going on but I feel like this is the album where it works best. But maybe I am just a hypocrite. OK that’s all. Hi

#definitely going to delete this later LOL I get embarassed #but i had fun writing all this incomprehensible stuff

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cassatine · 4 years

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Hi, I sent you an ask a while ago about Ben Solo living after redemption, and I just wanted to say thanks for your in-depth thoughts. I also saw TROS and although I was disappointed/grieved, it was Rey’s story that really got to me and made me feel miserable. I wanted an atonement story, a romance, but I also didn’t want to lose our heroine on the altar of nostalgia. It all felt so status quo, “leadership” and capitalist. I’m not insecure about what I wanted from this story anymore. Fuck Disney.

Hi nonnie! Glad to see you again, although I do wish both of us had more to celebrate wrt TROS, and sorry for the late reply - I’ve been Reacting to TROS quite a bit, but tbh mostly circling the Rey & Kylo Ben arcs because it hurt me in a way other aspects of the shitty subtext and bad pacing don’t, and I’m still untangling… idk, the ways that it’s shitty because it is, and the ways that it’s shitty for me, because it hit some personal stuff and I was completely unprepared for that.

Longish rambles under cut

My thoughts on redemption and atonement haven’t changed, but it’s been on my mind a lot recently so I’m taking the occasion to air some more here.

I wrote this in your first ask (I think it’s the one)

I’m not even that much of a fan of redemption arcs on a personal level, but these arcs, whether they’re about the nitty-gritty of redemption and the difficult process of realizing, admitting and then acting on the fact that you fucked up, that you were wrong, that you did wrong, whether they’re fantastic and exaggerated and written in blood across the stars - they’re about people’s capacity to change for the better, to come back from the worst version of themselves. They’re about the fact that however far you might err, you can change paths; it’s never too late. What’s not to like in that? It’s some of the best humanity has to offer, the very capacity to grow and learn and admit wrongs and become better for it.

TROS sure didn’t change my mind on that - in fact I’ve seen enough people saying Kylo Ben Deserved Death and read enough Terrio/Abrams interviews by now that I’m feeling it more than ever. I kind of want to talk about in terms of different views of justice, restorative vs. punitive, but what I really can’t stop thinking about is that one definition of redemption, “deliverance from sin.” I’m not religious, but I bathed in enough catholicism growing up that this does mean something to me - I’m not hot on the whole notion of sin, but deliverance? God cares about sinners is what it means; it’s the whole fucking point. God forgives, and doesn’t yeet you in a fucking pit when you finally decide to get your act on straight.

Ahem. I’m talking in religious terms because I’ve been seeing a lot of reactions couched in a very different view of sin, which posits that once you’ve been tainted, whatever the circumstances, it’s done and over, you’re bad forever. To the pit you go. It’s not something I find a lot of beauty in (a euphemism for the ages). It’s not the same view of God, and it’s not the same view of human nature.

Which circles back to justice, restorative vs punitive - there’s a wide array of positions, of course, but fundamentally if you’re inclined to believe tainted once tainted forever, that this is human nature, you’re much more likely to go for punitive justice, and with a depressing regularity on socmed, as far as ‘actually I can totes cast the first stone’. And you kinda need to believe humans can grow better to go for restorative justice, or to at least to want it to be true.

I’ve been thinking about how I don’t particularly care for redemption arcs myself; I like them fine, but I’m not… enthusiastic? about them. I compare that to people to whom these stories matter deeply, and I don’t want to overgeneralize because there are plenty of reasons to be drawn to redemption stories, personal or otherwise, but I’m coming to think a big reason why I don’t respond much to redemption arcs (unless they titillate my id for another reason) is basically that I don’t need the affirmation that people/me can grow better and come back from the worst version of themselves. It’s A Given that’s pretty much been drilled in my head and that I’ve never seen reason to undrill, even at my most misanthropic (and that was A Lot).

This was a lot of rambling but what I’m saying is yeah holy fuck we need redemption stories that delve in the process of atonement and where do we go from there. No one fucking misinterpret me on this, but fiction does have an impact - a story’s never just a story: it comes with its creator(s)’ views and questions and beliefs, it makes points consciously or unconsciously. As audience we can challenge ourselves with stories that challenge our own mindset. Or do the opposite, find affirmation in stories - and both are good! some things do need to be affirmed (like people’s capacity to grow better), although I’m also veeery dubious of points like happy endings are better or those be the rules here is the template a story must follow; I enjoy escapism as much as anyone and I don’t particularly want to challenge my views with every piece of fiction I consume nor do I think anyone should do that, but I’m wary of any position that boils down to “fiction should be comfortable” because - and again! I like escapism! it’s kinda like asking for the bread & games back but without the bread.

Anyway, I’m really oversimplifying but basically, imo the most impactful thing fiction can do is challenge people’s views and all that jazz, and I’m all for challenging the kind of bullshit TROS served us and the whole notion that sin doesn’t wash off eveeeer and that at best redemption is death in sacrifice.

I’m not even going in the Good Child / Bad Child vibes in TROS. I should, because it makes the whole thing even less palatable, but honestly, I just can’t.

Okay. I think I’m done with that.

Going back to your actual ask -

I also saw TROS and although I was disappointed/grieved, it was Rey’s story that really got to me and made me feel miserable. I wanted an atonement story, a romance, but I also didn’t want to lose our heroine on the altar of nostalgia. It all felt so status quo, “leadership” and capitalist. I’m not insecure about what I wanted from this story anymore. Fuck Disney.

tbh foregoing my own preferences the main reason TROS sucks *that bad* is… well you more or less said it. It’s a film that feels like it’s been designed by a marketing team trying to reach the widest possible audience by having something in it for everyone at a purely cosmetic level. I’ve mentioned the shitty subtext (and it’s A Lot, like the core thesis of the film imo is [this], pretty much every woman’s done dirty [thread], Poe’s background is fucking racist and Space Orientalism is in full form, and here’s for [Finn & troopers & agency], and [my fears aging like fine wine], just for a top-five-or-so of Things That Set Me Off), but the shitty subtext is there because it’s a soulless, incoherent void of a film that can’t commit to anything.

It is… *drumrolls* A Product. As disappointing as TROS was, at the end of the day there’s really no reason to expect stories produced by fucking disney to truly commit to pushing narratives that criticize the status quo they thrive on. “SW is about fighting fascism” my whole ass, SW is about American nostalgia for nicely black and white conflicts and under the surface it’s always been reactionary af. It could always be read in different ways, and R1 & TLJ let us glimpse a version of the franchise that could grow beyond, and maybe there’ll be more of that, but I’m not gonna hold my hopes up personally.

Sorry I wish I had more positive things to say - I’m glad you don’t feel insecure about what you wanted from the story anymore though because like… why would you? All of us are invested and we want the story to resonate with us on a personal level. Nothing wrong with wanting romance and atonement or a heroine that’s not done dirty.

#star wars #rise of skywalker #meta #spoilers #im still so bitter #anon #ask

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fae-fucker · 4 years

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Zenith: Chapter 52-55

Chapter 52

Valen interrogates Andi about his father’s decision to make her his rescuer, and instead of going “take that up with your dad because I don’t know his reasons for doing this,” Andi tries to be all apologetic about all the Kalee stuff and saying how she’s changed and Valen’s like nu-uh!

“It was a mistake,” Andi said again. “If I could take it back—”

Valen gritted his teeth. “Murder isn’t a mistake.”

Have I finally gone off the deep end or is this fucking funny?

“If I recall, you were the one who allowed your little sister and her friend to sneak out for a joyride on your father’s brand-new transport,” Andi replied. Her words were soft and casual, but her eyes were on fire.

“Spectre,” Valen said. “Spectre first, and always. You failed her as that.”

“Again,” Andi said, “it was a mistake. I’ve had to live with the cost of it.”

“Kalee didn’t!” Valen screamed. “She didn’t get to live, Androma!”

It’s honestly impressive that whenever I go into a chapter that’s relatively short and think it’s gonna be fine and I’ll just skim over it, Shinsay proves me wrong by including more bullshit that I just have to talk about. But hey, part of the reason I have this blog is so that people know what not to do and examining why certain things just don’t work, with the added bonus of having the context for it.

It’s also impressive how two women somehow keep making the wrong choice for the same one book, over and over and over. Every narrative choice in this book is wrong.

So, what’s wrong with this particular bit? Remember when Dex and Andi were having their stupid argument and Dex, right after trying to apologize for what he did and explain himself, turned around and started blaming Androma for it instead? Here it’s even more jarring, because Andi genuinely believes she was to blame for Kalee’s death and genuinely wants to atone (or she claims to want that, at least). So when she, out of nowhere, starts trying to defend herself and shift the blame onto Valen? That shit don’t make no sense, y’all.

I think this is a result of the book having too many pointless POVs. We’re in Valen’s right now, so obviously he needs emotional triggers to react to and start monologuing over. He needs to be provoked and damn logic and character consistency, he’s gonna get provoked! Andi’s words make no sense and will not be examined closer once we’re back in her POV, she just said this OOC shit for the sake of drama, yet given everyone’s awful characterization, even small things like these serve only to undermine the characters and their motivations even further.

Shinsay don’t understand that sometimes, no arguments is far more impactful than a dramatic verbal battle of cheap witticisms. Instead of this, Andi could’ve just sat there, quietly, letting Valen dunk on her because she feels she deserves it. Hell, this entire conversation could’ve been saved if only Andi’s blame-shifting line had been given to someone else! I didn’t even read it as her saying it at first and had to double-check and that’s when it fell apart to me.

God, I could go on like this forever. Feel free to send me asks if you want me to elaborate on dialogue and characterization, I guess? Let’s just move on.

The others try to figure out how Valen was taken and what happened when he was, asking him if he knows anything about Queen Nor, at which point Rage Unlocks Within Him, and he gets up and leaves.

I also want to mention that Valen talks about “things being tense after Kalee was gone,” but Kalee’s been dead for four years, while Valen was taken two years ago. Sooo uh ... huh? He makes it sound like it was two months after and not two years. He could’ve said things “changed” after her death and it would’ve sounded better. Idk just a preference I guess.

Also ... I just realized Valen’s been missing and tortured for two years. How he still talks normally is ... pretty bonkers, to say the least.

Chapter 53

Andi goes out to find Valen but finds Lon instead, his blue tiddies out.

Lon leads Andi to where Valen is, all while dropping hints that Lira has something to say to Andi and that Andi shouldn’t try to influence her decision. To her credit, Andi says she won’t, and that she loves Lira as her sister.

Andi and Valen sit around in nature for a bit and talk about Valen’s art. I don’t hate it?

“When I was locked up, I almost forgot what colors looked like,” [Valen] said, lazily brushing the stick back and forth against the mud. “Did you know that black is more than just a single shade?”

Anish Kapoor would like to know your location.

Valen says he can’t forgive Andi for what she did, but he can also not forgive himself for being part of those choices(????). Andi speculates that her accusation earlier must’ve struck him deep, but that’s all we get on that, no explanation as to why she accused him at all.

“In Lunamere, I had nothing to keep me company but my pain and my thoughts. I had lots of time to think about that night, and everything leading up to it. Time to realize that we were raised in a society where perfection is the only option. But that doesn’t mean it’s always possible. We all made bad choices that night, not just you. She got on that transport herself. And I chose to stay behind.”

Andi wanted to speak, but she feared it would shatter this strange, heart-wrenching moment they had somehow found themselves in.

Thanks for telling me it’s heart-wrenching, lest my idiot self got lost in all this emotion and forgot to realize what was happening.

Christ, even when Shinsay have a decent dramatic and emotional moment going, they just can’t keep their grubby little hands to themselves, huh? I know it’s your book but can you shut the fuck up for a moment and just let the prose stand on its own?

God, if only there had been an editor.

Both Andi and Valen admit they wish they’d died with Kalee and in any other more competent book this would’ve been quite touching.

“Without Kalee...” Andi began, finally voicing the realization she’d come to terms with these past few days. “Without Kalee, there wouldn’t have been a sentence for me to run from. And without that running, I never would have found Dex. And without him...”

“You wouldn’t be the Bloody Baroness,” Valen finished for her. “My father would not have hired you.”

It was a vicious cycle, one that Andi wished she could have undone before it had ever started. But it was her story. Her life.

Her life is a series of reactions to things outside of her control? Love that for a protagonist.

Listen, I know it’s supposed to be sad and stuff, but even Andi’s backstory reinforces her reactionary personality and the way the plot is driven by things completely outside of her control. It’s hard to feel invested in a character when they never make choices and instead only react to whatever happens to them.

Anyway, Valen and Andi seem to have gotten over their differences and go to the festival together. That was easy. I guess it’s to throw us off the scent and make it more surprising when he suddenly turns out to be evil? I’m honestly not sure. It’s pretty bad either way, but I don’t have to tell you that.

Chapter 54

We’re with Lira again and she’s staring off into the distance thinking about the festival. Lon appears again, tiddies still out, but now his muscles and “sculpted” chest feels kind of weird to comment on since we’re in Lira’s head? Whatever, maybe Adhirans are weird like that.

Lon says some cutesy shit about how technically Lira is this planet’s princess but she doesn’t reply or even think about how that would make him the prince? He just says he’s her brother and has to guard her. Maybe Adhirans also don’t let men have political power because that’s what Shinsay think feminism is.

Anyway, they join the other girls and head to the festival while Lira mopes about her decision and how she can’t have two families. Except you can. But whatever. Logic isn’t dramatic enough, I suppose.

“It’s time to let loose,” Breck said. “Lir, you look like you’ve just puked up a pound of Moon Chew.”

“Lira doesn’t puke,” Gilly said.

“That’s ridiculous. Everyone pukes,” Breck added.

“I’ve never seen her do it. And I spy on her, like, all the time.”

Lon chuckled beside Lira. “I see it,” he whispered. “What draws you to this crew.”

I don’t.

Also they’re in the same close space it seems, so I have no idea how they 1) don’t bother to ask Lira what’s going on and 2) don’t notice Lon being all whispery and shit. Convenient!

Gonna gloss over the spying bit as well, I see. Hey, they do have those eye implants that you don’t need consent to activate. Maybe Gilly’s been using it to perv on the rest of the crew.

Lira decides ... not to decide, and just fuckin party down for tonight. I guess in this universe it means she’s gonna get blackout wasted, because That’s What Adults Do. I should also mention that she decides not to decide and then never has to decide anyway because the plot intervenes and the choice is made for her. Love that for a character.

*sigh*

Chapter 55

We’re in Dex’s POV and we get some decent descriptions of how cool the festival is with more incidental aliens and traditions. Dex spots the crew and thinks about how they’re his crew now and realizes he’s bonded with them. I’m glad this is spelled out because I would not have noticed it myself, and frankly I both do and don’t mean it this time.

They’ve only been together for a couple of days, tops. I guess extreme situations make people bond faster but I really feel like we’re jumping the shark here. At the same time I can tell that Dex clearly fits into the crew pretty well, and this just feels forced and redundant. All in all, this comment is just unnecessary. Let the characters evolve and grow closer naturally, Shinsay. You don’t need to convince us they’re a crew, you can just show us and we’ll believe it!

Dex spots Valen and Andi and of course we get a horny description of how cool and sexy Andi is and how impressed Dex is that she and Valen are already friends. Then he decides to get drunk and eat some meat.

Frankly? Relatable. Chapter? Pointless.

#eff reads: zenith

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dgcatanisiri · 4 years

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So. Did see Rise of Skywalker today.

“Flawed, but probably as good as we were going to get” is my two cent summary, especially given some of the whispers I’m hearing about what went on behind the scenes that, in effect, this was “the Disney shareholder’s” trilogy more than any individual, and I think you all can guess my opinion of the Disney shareholders in general... (plus the inevitable difficulty of trying to unify two movies that honestly had a lot of tonal and thematic clash to begin with).

You want more details, they’re behind the cut, because I’m going to respect the spoiler tags.

First things first, let me get this out of the way first, Kelly Marie Tran and Rose Tico DESERVED. BETTER. Like, bare minimum, I think there should have been a scene between her and Rey at the start while Rey is reading the Jedi tomes. Just a little something that connects the two. Better still, use her as a touchstone character for what’s happening at the Resistance base in the first half - yeah, sure, you can only do so much with the jiggered footage of Carrie Fisher, but SO. WHAT. Leia doesn’t have to be in those scenes.

Hell, have her and Connix talk, considering that Connix was significant enough to both be in charge of the D’Qar evacuation AND Poe’s right hand during the mutiny. Since Connix is played by Billie Lourd, Carrie Fisher’s daughter, it’d have been a fine connection there, especially if you want to include some foreshadowing of Leia’s eventual death, talk about them being concerned about the way that the General is handling everything happening, losing everyone so close to her.

Like, that’s the off the top of my head ways to enhance Rose’s part in this movie without significantly altering any of the plot. Truthfully, I think she should have been part of the group the whole time anyway.

I still don’t particularly like the return of Palpatine as the big bad, meaning that we’re pretty much completely undermining the end of the original trilogy. I mean, wasn’t that what Anakin Skywalker’s death in Return of the Jedi meant? At least when the Legends line brought him back, it was a) still during the post-RotJ war clean up, where the Empire was still fighting after Endor, still part of the same war, and b) left ambiguous enough if that was genuinely Palpatine or just a clone that claimed to be the original Palpatine.

But I can also appreciate the thematic relevance of Palpatine, the Emperor, Darth Sidious, whatever name he uses, being the overarching villain of the Skywalker Saga. So... We’ll call it even? Meh.

I will RELUCTANTLY allow the idea of Leia sacrificing herself to pull back her son from the dark side, mostly on the basis of being limited by the footage of Carrie Fisher, so using her death to have story meaning can be tolerated. Still don’t like it - I have firmly been of the believe that, given all the times he made the active choice to be evil, he could not simply return to the light, be redeemed or forgiven. But since he did, ultimately, die, I will allow it - I’m only going to be able to view his death as, effectively, him making the only effort at atonement that could be done, stopping Palpatine, before his true penance came in not being able to be a part of the galaxy he helped to save.

That said, I do NOT accept the kiss. I will only even possibly pretend it happened under the pretense of being a heat of the moment victory thing that meant nothing. Because FUCK REYLOW.

First half of the movie is HORRENDOUSLY compacted. Like, I legit feel like there was a good fifteen minutes or more hacked out of it. Too much is happening right off the bat and just doesn’t stop. It settles down eventually, but MAN could that have done with less compression.

Honestly, overall, it feels like at least two movies crammed into one, like Disney refused to split it up because “but it’s a TRILOGY!” Which, uh... Not to open the “TLJ discourse” can of worms, but... That was always going to happen, considering the massive tonal clash between Abrams and Johnson as writers and directors. Especially with Johnson having basically done nothing that would advance a core arc, by way of having the main characters of the trilogy interact - TLJ had Rey, Finn, and Poe all in different plots in separate areas, which made no sense to begin with, considering these were supposed to be the core characters, shouldn’t they have actually gotten to interact sooner?

Like I said in the summary, TFA and TLJ have little that actually connects them. In the sense of creating a coherent narrative, it’s not unreasonable that Abrams downplayed a lot of Johnson’s elements, considering that Johnson did the same with elements Abrams included in TFA - Finn’s potential Force affinity (I’ll get to that), the Knights of Ren (suddenly back with no explanation), the conscription of child soldiers as stormtroopers (which really SHOULD have been a core part of TLJ, instead of the child slavery on Canto Bight, considering it mattered to Finn’s character as already established), the idea that Luke had been searching for something (because why would he have left a map to where he was going in TFA if, as TLJ said, he went to Ach-to to wait for death?)... TRoS was always going to be in a bind on these things, and, really, considering that neither film prior was written with an ending in mind, there was no real solution but to just dance around the subject.

Let’s talk briefly about the Poe background stuff, which... *sigh* It was so POINTLESS to introduce the idea that he was a drug dealer. Like, first of all, RACIST AS FUCK to make the Latino man a drug dealer. Secondly, when and how, considering his canon back story is that he is the son of minor Rebel heroes, how did he have the time for this to happen? Third and not least, the guy’s an ace pilot, why WOULDN’T he know about hotwiring vehicles? He should know them inside and out!

Zorii is... There. That’s about all I really can say about her. Same with Jannah. Both of these felt like characters who SHOULD have had more relevance, had they been introduced sooner (and in which case, I’d toss Zorii and swap in Rose anyway). Considering they’re dropped in at the last second as they are, they honestly end up just feeling like props meant to portray Poe and Finn as straight, which...

Okay, Disney overlords are homophobic cowards. Let’s just acknowledge that right off. Finn/Poe was a ship that was never going to be allowed off the ground. We all knew it going in. So make Finn/Rey a thing and let Poe be read as gay, even if it’s not said. It would have been that simple. TFA laid the foundation, and that hug in TLJ was a good building block as well. But no. You have to be cowards and not “rock the boat” by both not having an interracial relationship AND trying to appease the Reylows. Ugh.

Anyway, any and all flirtation between Poe and Zorii is PURE mlm/wlw joking with one another. Stormpilot is endgame. Rey/Rose is real. Fuck Disney and fuck canon. MOVING ON.

Also on that note, FINN IS FORCE SENSITIVE, GODDAMMIT. The adamant refusal to acknowledge this REALLY pisses me off, because Finn is a PERFECT mirror to Kylo Ren and should have been his counterpart throughout this trilogy - Finn was a nameless stormtrooper with no past, Kylo was the heir to legacies, Finn refused to slaughter innocents, Kylo gave that order. Finn embraced the Resistance, Kylo led the First Order. THIS is the duality of characters that should have driven this trilogy. I’m not trying to take away Rey’s significance, but...

When people complain about Rey’s lineage, I’m just not all that big on this matter. First of all, I was neutral on the subject from day one. As time has gone on, however, I have reached a point where I’m just ‘...well, yeah, of course she’s got an important lineage.’ Because TFA made a big deal of this fact. This was her driving motivation. On top of that, TLJ trying the “they were nobodies” thing actually legit pisses me off, because what abandoned child just casually accepts “they were nobodies”? Even if they weren’t significant (which, again, by way of Maz and the lightsaber calling to her in TFA, there was a strong implication of them being significant, particularly with the stage directions in the script for Luke and Leia when interacting with Rey), they weren’t nobodies FOR HER. But TLJ basically has her discard the search casually.

So you want a hero who comes from nothing? Again, may I present FINN, the stormtrooper who came from nothing, who should have been leading a stormtrooper uprising, who should have gotten to be a Jedi, who DESERVED BETTER THAN THIS TRILOGY GAVE HIM...

Gah. Okay. I’m tired of ranting about the things that I didn’t like. There ARE positives, I swear!

Chewie’s breakdown over Leia’s death about broke me. Like, the moment he collapses... God, that was choking me up an hour later, too. How much it must hurt Chewie and Lando to be the only ones left... Honestly, I was half afraid that the Falcon would be destroyed during that final conflict.

Honestly, I know the idea was that Han’s appearance was just a figment, a manifestation of the inner thoughts, but I’m going to call it confirmation of Han being Force sensitive. Mostly because I picture Han losing his shit at the idea. And, honestly, I can’t help but wish that, at the least, we could have had Leia appear there, but we weren’t going to get that either way.

Speaking of Leia, honestly, I think they did the best they could with what they had of her, and, truthfully, I think it was a fine tribute to Carrie, to have Leia there, die within the context of this movie, and not just die off between films. Yes, it bound their hands some, but... It wouldn’t have been right without her, either.

Though I do reiterate that the binding with the footage is no excuse for hacking Rose practically out of the film entirely.

I focused on the issues I had against the movie, mostly because I feel like they stood out more than the things that I liked. The problem this trilogy has had since day one is that they went into this without a plan. This trilogy never knew where it was going until this movie came along. So two movies of basically throwing everything at the wall, leading to one movie having to tie it all up. This movie was always going to struggle, but in the end, I think it probably came out as best as it could.

If you want to call that damning with faint praise... I suppose it sort of is, but, more truthfully, it’s seeing it for what it is and judging it as such. This movie was hobbled before it could walk, that it managed what it did as well as it did is really a tribute to those who tried to make it work.

I feel like that’s all the major things I have to bring up right now. Though I will add... Yeah, let’s be real. They call this the end of the Skywalker Saga, but in twenty years or so, we’re going to get a fourth trilogy. Because we’re basically at the point of “every generation’s going to have their own Star Wars trilogy.”

#dg rambles #star wars #the rise of skywalker #tros spoilers #star wars spoilers #i'm gonna regret the public tags on this aren't i?#ah well...

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