#i think like 4? which is Not Enough

[leenfiend]

what's ur type first < prev next >

[bietrofastimoff23]

✨they're besties ✨

I just know that their first meeting was supposed to end in a fight, but Tai Lung saw how this loser couldn't use his own breath fire, and he was like, "ha-ha. well, this funny guy is my bff now ."

No, he didn't ask for Scott's opinion. He decided it for the two of them.

Tai Lung before and during a conversation with Scott:

[daily-hanamura]

[ghouljams]

Ghoul i dinnae know if you’ve done this before but what if Ghost was Die’s demon ? How would tha go 👁️👁️

Die also doesn't read the manual, but at least she asks questions...

"What's it like being dead?" You whisper, crouched low as you scurry between cover points.

"What's it like bringing a knife to a gun fight?" Ghost's low voice asks in your ear. You flip your knife in your grip, fingers tight on the handle. Pretty fun, you think to yourself, waiting out his answer as you sneak behind an enemy combatant. You wrap your arm around their neck tight, dragging them back as your stab your knife into their chest with repeated aggression and precision.

You let their body sag against you, their legs twitching as you lower them to the ground. You give another few testing stabs, before slitting their throat. You wrestle their gun from the corpse, rifling through their gear for ammunition. You show the gun to the shadows, with a "better?" raise of your brows.

"I'm not dead." Ghost responds finally to your original question.

"You're quite literally a demon named Ghost." You wipe the blood off your knife with the corpse's pant leg.

"And you're a soldier named Die," You think you roll your eyes hard enough to see your brain, "Any more observations?"

"You're prettier with your mouth closed?" You mumble, Ghost hums.

"Could say the same thing about you."

"You think I'm pretty?" You grin, teasing as you raise your newly procured gun to scan the room.

"Don't push it." You can almost hear the smile in his voice, almost feel him over your shoulder following your line of sight.

"Gimme a head count then," You tell him, just to feel the weight leave your shoulders, to see the shift of shadows as Ghost moves through them. You wait, checking over your gun to make sure it's in working condition before you feel demonic weight on your shoulders again.

A small map of the tunnels you're ducking through lifts itself from your shadow in the low light. You count the pinpricks of movement as threats, and commit the map to memory. There's a dense cluster of life in one of the open spaces. That must be where they've got the servers stashed. You nod, dismissing the map. You press your fingers to your mic to radio the intel to command, tap a few times when your ear piece only hums static. On your own then.

"You hungry?"

"Starving."

"Good, let's cause some chaos."

[bonefall]

Tbh I never read that far in DOTC but I heard so much about star flower from fandom that now hearing about it directly from you I feel so cheated. I was promised a femme fatale.. tho in hindsight considering how much these writers hate women I probably shouldn't have gotten my hopes up

I WISH we got a femme fatale. It would have been incredibly cathartic for her to make herself alluring to Clear Sky, turning his worst traits against him and getting both power and revenge. For Thunder to bond to her over it, reaching the conclusion in the end that they both had terrible parents that they need to reject.

but, knowing the Erins, they would have just had Clear Sky kill her violently and gratuitously for ever tricking him. Like how he gouged Willow Tail's eyes out. So... I guess we were doomed either way.

Anyway im cooking

[beatcroc]

turns out i have to make an unnecessarily wordy thoughtspost about doombox too bc there is nothing about this character that isn't fucking ridiculous and also really funny and i'm kind of really obsessed with all of it. ordinarily i would just start firing but in this case I need to just. paste his bio and then go through it step by step because every phrase here is absurd when looking at how he's handled along with the other characters and the world as a whole. here we go

first sidenote: i should also add 'nonsensical' to the list of descriptors up there, because this is a fighting game and no doubt has the typical Bad Fighting Game Writing at play that doesn't really hold up when put under scrutiny as i'm about to, but understand that this is something i've come to love about the genre and its typically batshit lore, and it further enhances the experience for me. it's all utter nonsense and its my favorite shit ever.

the biggest thing to me that makes his entire shtick ridiculous is that he was explicitly made to be a weapon. like his express purpose is destruction and/or killing people, and he certainly has the disposition to be doing that. except that he is not doing that. he's out there playing Ball Game, evidently of his own volition.

i feel it is also important to highlight that he was not originally or intentionally a boombox; he just kinda lives in there. his own bio frames it as happenstance, but sonata's dlc skin lore** implies he isn't permanently stuck in there and can kinda just hop out and take control of whatever he wants whenever he wants. there is an entire goddamn tank just sitting there in the background of one of these stages. he is a weapon. there is heavy artillery readily available to him that he could be commanding if he wanted to, but he's not doing that either. he is still a boombox. i think he likes it in there. *there's an argument to be made that maybe he's not powerful enough to control something that large, or maybe just that switching hosts is really tiring or risky. im just saying though there's like a bajillion host devices better suited for A Fucking Weapon than a boombox, but he seems really committed to this for some reason. while im here btw it's fucking terrifying that he apparently can possess thing that are Not tech as well **as a side note from that the specific mention of her boomhammer is interesting. i don't think it's an intentional implication but i enjoy the idea he has an affinity for sound-based devices; i like to think the boombox left an impression on him with its being the initial thing he possessed and got used to

and then there is the berserking. the 'rampaging', as it is otherwise called. not exactly strange on its own given his temperament and designation, but strange for the way it's characterized as only a tendency. it's only that he's prone to rampaging. he rampages often, but not all the time. just often! what is he doing he is not rampaging? getting a custom trimmed jacket with his own logo emblazoned on it? like a nerd? and on the flipside, what exactly do these rampages even entail? because it's apparently not anything destructive or disruptive enough for anyone to care about stopping him under normal circumstances.

like how are you a giant angry "not exactly stable" weapon of a guy and everyone's like 'yeah that's fine. that's our doombox!' toxic's specific wording regarding his getting unfucked postgame is "back to his old raging self", which implies to me there's almost a certain fondness, or at least amusement, at his being like this. i know one of the core themes of lethal league is letting these oddball misfit dudes do their thing and freely be who they are, but like. is doombox sincerely just not a threat for that? like really? dice's interactions also sort of imply that his actually trying to kill someone is really out of the ordinary for him so truly like. db my man what ARE you doing out there. * re: toxic and dice's talking about him; i do also find it amusing that one of his defining traits is just being pissed off all the time. again, not surprising given his purpose/designation as a weapon, but funny in that it's like. how he's KNOWN; in the sense that it is immediately noticeable and a cause for concern for other characters to see he is Not angry. fuckin social barometer of a guy. local angry guy isn't angry, something's wrong.

the "reasons for playing in the league unknown" bit also strikes me as a little odd even though it REALLY shouldn't. i'm like 97% sure it's just written like that to make him seems mysterious and unpredictable and dangerous, but it's a weird thing to call attention to when you consider that...less than half of the other characters' reasons are known? raptor is there trying to get info on his dad, that one's well out there. dust & ashes i think have some kind of implied reason for being there as well but it of course isn't elaborated on, and grid is like trying to impress "the youth" and establish a profile or something. nitro seems like he might not actually be IN the league as an official competitor? it's just helpful for him to know how to ball for the situations he gets into with his investigations. everybody else's "reason" pretty much seems like they're just out there to have fun. and toxic says as much in the story mode intro! the game was developed for people to escape the monotonies of shine city! so to imply doombox has a separate, non-recreational reason for being here is weird. the easiest read on it for me is just that he was drawn to it cause it's intense and destructive but at the same time.... if all he wants is an excuse to wreck shit....why are you competing in a structured sports game with rules and shit my dude. you are a weapon. just go attack people. except that we've established that he doesnt really do that. so. once again. what IS he doing out here

----

aside from the bio though, there's of course random little tidbits of characterization throughout the game itself and they are all also likewise ridiculous.

he refers to himself in third person, which is always an amusing choice for a character in general. it carries with it a certain sense of ego, an awareness of and and pride in one's presence and gravitas. this was mostly just surprising to me bc before i started looking at everything, i'd assumed he was more or less mindless and, yknow, robotic; without much personality/reason for being there beyond being the Biggest Baddest Best At Ball Game Guy doombox is already very imposing, so this is frankly a well-earned sense of pride for him to have.....but it still doubles back to being funny again because, as i've established above, he could stand to be a hell of a lot scarier! but he doesn't seem to notice or care that there are many readily-available options for becoming more powerful and/or establishing himself as unquestionable top dog. so instead he is a boombox. third-person is also often used for characters who are a little dumb, and i think this applies to doombox as well. he is a weapon, and clearly a brute-force-over-precision type of weapon at that, he doesnt need smarts. i think this is also sort of hinted at with his voice lines; where the other characters have some kind of snarky phrase or one-liner for their kill/score voice line, doombox just goes "bye-bye". Which is still appropriately Disrespectful, but it's also very, uh... simple. again i just think there are... more imposing things a guy like him could be saying there, but i guess he hasn't got anything more than fucking. bye-bye.

anyways the ego thing i think is well-echoed by his stupid fucking jacket. none of the other characters have their logo as part of their design and i'm pretty sure the rest of the symbols are just game abstractions and don't exist in-universe, but like. doombox is just going around wearing a jersey with his own damn face on it. ok. to be clear i love his jacket but it is literally so silly for him to have that. imagine being the guy having to custom-fit a fucking boombox. did db pay for it? how? we're getting into unproductive territory here but you could ask a million questions about that jacket and they all have hysterical implications. while im on the topic of designs i'd also like to say that while i don't count any of the other blaze redesigns as "canon" like actual events the characters went through between games [like raptor in particular would have already had to have the stitches since that's his backstory, it's just they weren't a design point before], doombox is in a weird spot since the first game's design for him was very specifically referencing its HUD in a meta way for his flavor and that was pretty much the entire extent of his flavor; while in blaze he and the HUD are very much separate distinct things with their own flavor. there's more to talk about here later but as it pertains to design what im saying is i think he just went out and found a better and cooler boombox to be in between games. and also got a funny jacket. *actually i have no idea if there's even a Timeline here. the gut vibe i had been running on was that blaze happens a couple years after the original, but looking at it now that doesn't seem right. does blaze Replace the timeline of the first game? are there even Events in the first game to count as a timeline? do they run concurrently?

alright anyway the last point here is the 3rd-person thing is even moreso interesting to me though bc i was under the assumption that 'doombox' was something akin to a codename he was given when other people saw this big fucking Thang rampaging through the streets. but seeing as 1. he's definitely aware of it, and 2. not even the damn scientists who made him knew he was in a boombox [as implied in his dlc skin lore], i'm led to believe he came up with the name himself. the fucking tape in his cassette player does just say 'doom' on it so i am choosing to believe that's either where he got the name, or that he put that on there himself.

MOVING on, another really good thing is that he does this

i just think it's funny he's continuing to use the thing as an actual boombox; i feel like that isn't something he necessarily Has to do. obviously he's susceptible to certain quirks and limitations of being a boombox re: mind control tape, but i don't think that means he has to play out its every function. i think he's doing that on purpose and i am filing it under "he likes it in there". hes listening to his jams.

also on a similar note,

this is also not important and i realize it's mostly just a quirky videogamey way to get around saying the robot kinda character is "asleep", but i do enjoy the implication that shine city's biggest terror is like out there running on 4 D-cells.

also i'm making this guy out to be a city street menace, and the vibe i had assumed for him before was like, a random encounter in the back alleys that you super do not want to run into; but his associated stage/hangout seems to be the desert/scrapyard? which i don't really have anything interesting to say to that, but it's definitely a different vibe for his character if he typically hangs out in more desolate areas.

---

i think maybe the most baffling thing doombox has going on is the apparent "rivalry" with dice. this is also bizzare from dice's side of things. what the fuck does it even mean to be "rivals" with doombox? what are they competing for? what kind of things does dice get up to that doombox would even give a shit about in the first place, let alone to be considered a rival in? i mean, like, the league, probably, but why dice specifically, out of everyone? would doombox's league rival not just be whoever's the [second] strongest there? i believe dice when he says they're evenly-matched, but there isn't really anything that implies dice is of particularly high prestige within the league so it feels like he shouldn't hold much interest as a target. to be fair dice doesn't seem like the type that would care about prestige, but again, if he's not out there flaunting his shit or trying to claim he's the best or whatever, why does db care? this would be a lot easier to understand if it was a one-sided thing on doombox's part like okay maybe dice pissed him off one day and he's still mad about it. whatever. that's the vibe they go for in story mode, but then there's dice's dlc skin description, which seems to run entirely counter to that and has dice as the aggressor:

when deprived of his usual sense and restraint, dice's first thought is I Gotta Go Fuckin Kill Doombox? even if he's over it under normal circumstances, it's clear both of them have some deeper-rooted beef in this exchange. there is yet another layer to this in that doombox is, weirdly enough, not really shown to be the kind of guy that's interested in revenge. again, going back to his own dlc description, he- and i quote- "couldn't care less" about the guys who made him capturing him and chaining him up. his only interest there is breaking out and getting back to doing his thing. if you want to be really generous, you could also read this vibe from the story mode epilogue: doombox was not the one hunting down the safety league, that was nitro. doombox was simply, as stated before "back to his old raging self". both of these to say, he simply does not seem to give a shit about people who have directly wronged him and only wants to Do His Thing. so. once again. what the fuck is going on with dice that they both have lasting beef here. i truly cannot fathom what either of them did to be so mad specifically at eachother. this rivalry is something they reference a LOT too like it's a big deal in-universe, or something otherwise really important to portray. like

lore so strong you gotta put it on an achievement!!!!! really!!!!! and there are no details whatsoever about this????? * while i'm here i'd just like to say have more questions about dice than fucking anything else in this game. sadly there's practically nothing to intuit from the game about any of his situations so i don't have much for coherent thoughts to post on him, but my god. what the fuck, dice. this rivalry is arguably the single strangest thing doombox has going on but it doesn't even break top 5 weird things about dice.

anyways, the final section and MOST interesting thing to me in all this is that, coming out of the first game, i was really under the impression that doombox is just the arbitrary final boss monster you gotta kill; no real purpose or personality his own to speak of, and most importantly just synonymous with the game itself and its aesthetics re: mirroring the HUD design. he certainly still holds the role of big scary final boss monster in blaze too, but blaze 1. has him much more fleshed-out as his own Guy, and more importantly, 2. doesn't really consider him a Problem like your typical big angry final boss monster. or at least not moreso than anything else going on in the game. he's not a threat to be eliminated, he's respected as a character and as a competitor in the league; and more than that he just seems to be... liked? as in, liked by other people in-universe? and he's liked enough that they'll readily help him out so he can keep doing his thing? i do think latch fixed him up postgame mostly bc he felt bad about being the one responsible for getting db brainwashed in the first place but like. the game could have just as easily gone "and then doombox was defeated yay" and left it at that. instead, they seem to have a vested interest in keeping him around. most transparently this is likely just a "we can't get rid of any of the playable characters or else story mode would be noncanon", BUT the point of this post is trying to read cohesive narrative sense into places there probably isn't any, and my read here is that doombox is a sort of inadvertent guardian of the league. for 1, he does still very much embody a lot of what the game [both The Videogame and the league itself] is about, but more importantly i think his presence is just really good at keeping a lot of the more minor threats at bay. if you try to fuck with the league, you will eventually be squaring off with doombox, most likely having freshly pissed him off in the process, and i can't imagine that goes well for who or whatever is in that situation. there's probably not much that wants to stand up to him by himself, and there's even less that can challenge the league as a whole unit; he's really just a good guy to have on your side like in general when you are running an illegal sports operation. i think at Worst toxic might see him as the league's funny little mascot but realistically i think she has more respect for him than that. either way i don't think he's going to care and it doesn't affect him much regardless. for this, doombox simply gets to keep doing his thing, whatever the fuck that may be. there are certainly still forces beyond his control at play here [as demonstrated in story mode by the safety league], and when these come into play, the league in turn looks out for him and keeps him on top of his game. i'm not sure if he has the, uh.... kind of cognitive ability that he could be grateful for this, but if nothing else, we know he seems to enjoy playing in the league, so he probably at least recognizes that he's not going to meet a lot of resistance in it and/or that it's a good environment to keep doing as he pleases. i don't mean for this all to sound so transactional, but it's hard to say whether he has much charisma in-universe for people to want him around for more "legitimate" reasons. likewise, there's also still a lot up in the air on how like... sapient doombox actually is. whether he can have complex motivations about anything or if he has some concept of "having friends" or if he can experience emotions besides rage; i tend to lean to "no" on those because i am really trying my damndest not to woobify this guy, but ultimately i don't think it matters much; in the end, he and the league are still mutually beneficial for eachother, and they still enjoy having the other around. and i think that's pretty cool :)

[utilitycaster]

Sort of a distant tangent off my post about Ashton, but I'm growing more and more suspicious of the fandom claim that there's no time for small RP moments in Campaign 3. I do think that it's been challenging to get deeper party bonding or serious conversations that aren't about the big philosophical questions they're facing, since those do take much more time; but then I think about Calamity, or Candela Obscura. I can genuinely give you at least a couple paragraphs about pretty much every relationship in the two Circles, or in the Ring of Brass. I can also point to no shortage of small moments between characters in the Mighty Nein Aeor or Vox Machina Vecna endgame episodes, which were all extremely plot-heavy and fast-paced, and D20 consistently nails character relationships in a fraction of the time.

I think it really does come down to, as Brennan Lee Mulligan always says, the character creation phase. Laying down a solid groundwork in which everyone has a detailed, rich backstory and sense of personality and relationship history (in the case of characters who knew each other prior to the start of the series) is absolutely crucial, and even in the case of characters who don't know each other before going in, a good amount of time spent in character creation ensures that it's easier for them to develop those interpersonal relationships on the fly. I know in actual play there's some degree of finding the character as you play, but there are games for which there is a very short runway, and I don't think it ever hurts to do more extensive character prep than the bare minimum. And if there are gaps, I think it also helps to go back and fill those in mid-way, away from the table - Travis clarifying Chetney's backstory being a great example that allowed the history of Chetney and Deanna to feel realized and full, despite only a few episodes.

I'll also be blunt: most of the time when people complain that there aren't moments because the plot keeps moving...they're mad about shipping. Which has always rung hollow to me. It was a common complaint in C2, that no time was taken for character relationships, despite them taking an entire half of an episode for the Beauyasha date and despite no shortage of moments for all three of the other couples (and plenty of platonic moments between friends). The issue was never a lack of time; it was that the characters they wanted to talk to each other didn't actually have the relationship in canon that the fans had dreamed up, and so, when the chips were down, they went to other people.

It takes two seconds to say something like "I hold their hand", even in the middle of plot-heavy adventuring. If someone doesn't say it, it's rarely the GM rushing them; it's the player either choosing not to do so, or not remembering to do so, and either of those is quite revealing regarding how the player feels about that relationship and where it stands in their priorities.

[skeletalheartattack]

i am taping your leg to the ceiling fan and turning it to max power :)

you're gonna what now? huh? wait. oh shit-

WAAAAHHHHHH!!!

[suddencolds]

~

[bbreaddog]

Okay I’m rewatching jatp (as you do) and it just stumps me every time how Julie can just sight read AT TEMPO without making a single mistake after almost an entire YEAR of not playing??????? OR SINGING? Did she even warm up?? There is seemingly NO SIGN of muscle regression, or loss of technique, LIKE. I don’t think anyone could get their vocal folds to thin out into THAT clean of a chest mix after not singing for a year.

JULIE?????????????

[buttercupshands]

mixing is in progress...

[worstloki]

saw someone on twitter say "one of the main characters in a loki show should have been thor odinson, not some random Sylvie or Mobius.

...... It's like a written law"

wdyt do you agree

I don't think it was necessary to make Thor a main character in a Loki show, the same way it WOULD be possible to throw together a Thor movie without having Loki be a main focus.

The issue comes in the quality of the narrative itself, and writing that if evidently without intention to care for (whichever) main character's importance will not work out. Neither the Loki series nor Thor 4 cared about the arc, motivations, history, or continuity of the titular characters beyond trying to make the media marketable.

Overall messaging can add a layer to the impact a story will have. Musical score can be a bonus way to control tone or tie a story together. Supporting cast can be vital to tell a good story. Prioritising their presence over anyone's (especially Loki's) characterisation is what the Loki series suffered from, not that other, original-adjacent characters were there.

[chirpsythismorning]

This post reminded me that Mike didn’t ask Will if he was okay at all in season 4… however:

You were rolling your eyes, you were- you were moping, you were barely talking, you basically sabotaged the whole day!

*admits subtly that he noticed based on Will’s behavior that he wasn’t okay*

I didn’t say it! / You didn’t have to.

*admits subtly that Will doesn’t need to spell stuff out (or even say anything at all) for him to understand*

At times when the audience is getting signs that Will isn't okay, Mike has been right there asking because he rightfully sensed it. Like, this has gotta be the most consistent thing about Mike's character over the course of the series, which that original post proves (though it's missing the iconic He's quiet today.! Are we forgetting anything else?!).

Despite s4 presumably stopping this trend, they're still showing us subtly that Mike is taking notice:

This shot above is unique because what it does is use framing/camerawork to hint to the audience that this is arguably Mike's perspective.

At the start of this shot, both El and Will are framed fairly equally, with Mike being the last to join the frame as the camera dollies out. This allows us to feel like we're seeing what Mike is seeing, whether we realize it or not. By framing the shot this way, they're telling us that Mike views both El AND Will as an option. El, because they have a history romantically and it's sort of an easy path for Mike to stay in for the rest of his life. Will, his best friend with whom he has very strong (romantic) feelings for, and so he ranks high up in Mike's line of focus among El, his girlfriend.

This shot above also shows us Mike staring at Will, if only for fleeting moment. But, it's there.

These tiny moments are important, because despite them existing, a vast majority of the audience didn't pick up on them, including most bylers. They're your standard blink and you'll miss it moments.

Because yeah, maybe Will does feel Mike's eyes on him, but the second Will looks to check, Mike isn't looking. Or most of the day, Mike did in fact look like he was having a jolly old time.

This is what's being presented to us blatantly, out in the open, and with Will at the center of it all..

The truth is, while we think we're getting Will's POV exclusively, most of the time, we're getting his and El's AND Mike's. It's just that they go about all of their POV's differently, but especially Mike's. His follows a formula of subtlety like 99% of the time. That small meager 1% where they let us see the truth, varies from outrageously subtle to subtle.

Here, Will is understandably confused by Mike giving him a play-by-play of his behavior throughout day. After all, from Will's perspective, aka the unreliable perspective the audience is being fed, Mike wasn't even looking at him. Again, if anything Mike seemed like he was having a good time up to this point. And so upon hearing this, Will, and arguably anyone watching this scene for the first time, was probably left thinking, 'Wait?.. What?"

I have a theory, which honestly isn't that far fetched, seeing as it works in tandem with how a lot of this season has presented POV in a multitude of ways, whether it be lighting, framing, blocking, camerawork, editing, dialogue, etc., they are definitely giving us hints.

These posts (here, here) will be helpful to understand everything that follows in terms of context, so I do recommend checking them out!

Basically this theory holds weight to me because of what is being blatantly shown to us: Mike ignoring Will/having a great day aka Will's POV vs. what is being subtly shown to us: Mike glancing at Will when Will isn't looking/telling Will that him showing signs of not being okay ruined the day aka Mike's POV.

I've also done a post on El's POV which may very well hold the truth to everything, even more so than Will and Mike's POV's , so please check that out if you want your mind blown.

Now, when I say POV, I'm being as loose as possible in my definition. We know that it's a camera, not literally the eyes of the person's perspective we're in (though that can be a technique in and of itself).

An OTS (over the shoulder) shot is the best example of how perspective tends to operate in film. And we saw how that technique in particular was used a lot in the van, monologue, and cabin scenes. Those are arguably more blatant examples in s4 of POV shots.

However, shots that are hinting at a specific POV don't start and end with OTS, nor shots using more literal POV techniques. There's other ways to hint at POV/inner feelings. It's even possible for one shot/sequence to represent multiple POV's at once. It sounds complicated, but it's really not.

Although Will's perspective is the main one we're being fed, it's not the whole truth, or it's at least missing an important detail...

It's not until we're given that crumb from Mike himself, in which he spit-fires out a list of Will's actions throughout the day, that we get any sort of context for Mike's aloof behavior. This line alone reveals to us that there is apparently a lot more to these scenes than meets the eye, when it comes to how Mike is behaving vs. how he's actually feeling.

Because if most of the audience is convinced Mike never looked at Will, just like Will is convinced, then that puts into question when exactly Mike would’ve even been looking to pick up on all of this, enough for it to ruin the day, and despite him behaving like he was happy as ever...?

And so, the answer?

Arguably, literally any time Mike was out of the frame, but especially when Mike was out of the frame while Will is in the frame, front and center (aka most of s4?), are fair game for times Mike could’ve been looking at Will. It's just that what we're being shown is not Mike actually looking and reacting each of these times. Instead, we're shown what he just literally sees, which is Will...

And that's what makes the following scenes with Angela and El extremely important, because they support this theory, heavily.

As El, Angela and her minions all skate away, we see Mike and Will stay behind in the booth. We then get a reaction shot with both of them in the frame. But the thing is, reaction shots usually require reactions.

While Will is standing up, looking visibly concerned for El, because he actually has the context for what's going on, Mike contrasts greatly in comparison.

Mike goes from looking back and forth between where Will was sitting across from him, to the direction El and Angela just rolled off to, only to look away the instant Will is fully standing and staring off in that same direction.

Mike then proceeds to give us no reaction, in what is presumably a reaction shot. It's as if Mike is not feeling any emotion at all, which is kind of a hard thing to do if you really think about it.

Especially when it comes to a character like Mike Wheeler, whose literally known for his dramatic facial expressions, meaning him not showing any emotion at all, for most of this sequence, likely required quite a bit of effort on his part...

Mike's 'reaction' is so vague that I can guarantee most of the audience wasn't even paying attention to him for this shot. And quite honestly this could apply to a lot of Mike's scenes this season, where whenever the two of them are having a heart to heart or something of that nature, the viewer's eye gravitates towards Will (also my theory for why the ga is convinced Finn is a bad actor, which is bc he is acting as a character whose also acting. Mike is leaving us in the dark about everything he is thinking and feeling, by only showing us what he literally sees, which is WILL WILL WILL).

The van scene is one good example of this, where so many fans still aren't aware of Finn's micro-expressions and what they clearly mean, all because they were too busy giving all their attention to Will's speech and his emotions (we're just like Mike fr).

And so here we have Will in the forefront showing a lot more emotion in this particular shot (he has our attention), while Mike is in the background, casually taking another sip of his milkshake.

But why is Mike busying himself with his milkshake in the first place? Why isn't he still looking at El and her friends like he just was? Or why doesn't he just look up at Will to start a conversation?

Instead, what we get is Mike distracting himself...

And it's because, just like Will's perspective of this day, Mike's context for everything up to this point is nowhere close to the truth, if anything it's even further from the truth than Will's.

Although I already linked the refresher course(s), I'm going to give a more detailed refresher, bc a lot of it was only images w/out context:

Mike thinks Angela is not only one of El's new friends in Lenora, but also the girl Will made the painting for (both of which he read about in her letter at the start of s4). Mike tests out this theory when he asks Will about the painting at the airport, only to be shot down. In Mike's eyes, this supports El's theory that the painting is likely for a girl. Still, it appears Mike hasn't totally given up on getting some answers, and so (glancing at Will) he mentions the possibility of them running into friends. This causes Will to interrupt with the comment, Friends? What friends?! To the audience, this is Will making a confused remark about the fact that El has no friends. But to Mike, Will's comment comes off as a nervous Friends? What friends?? Which friends? You mean her?? And so when El says, You know, Stacy and Angela, Will's worried response Angela? is again, a worrisome realization on Will's part that El is lying to Mike (WE the audience understand this). However, to Mike, it's Will singling out this girl's name because she is THE girl (Maybe it is for a girl! I think there is someone he likes...)! But then El is saying that they'll meet her friends another day, reassuring Mike that today is just about him and her. And Mike looks pretty smug about this reassurance, followed by kissing El's forehead dramatically as they walk out of the airport. Mike then begins to associate Will's moping for the rest of the afternoon, with him being bitter that they're not going to run into Angela like he'd probably hoped, so that he could give her the painting. Mike continues to play the part of perfect boyfriend, especially now after assuming Will is, for the very first time, pursing a girl... "I mean what did you think? Really? That we were never gonna get girlfriends.--" Oh, how the turntables.

And so now, looking back at this shot and this whole sequence, within the context of Mike thinking Angela is the girl Will made the painting for, makes Mike's behavior a whole lot easier to understand.

Also, what makes the very end of this shot, just so fucking crazy to me, is that, for a split second, we see Mike's facade start to crack. For a split second, as the camera starts to hone in on Will, with Mike slowly exiting the frame, it's at this moment that his signature annoyed scowl makes an appearance. But then poof, he's gone.

And isn't it so convenient that they're cutting us off, right before we could get to the part that would've revealed Mike's true emotions during this moment? And that it ends with us focusing on Will...?

Let’s try to understand this even more, because I feel like so much gets overlooked about these scenes at Rink-O-Mania.

Mike had spent all day trying to ignore the fact that Will was clearly not okay. What he would usually do in that situation, is just ask Will, 'Hey, you okay?'. But Mike wasn't being his true self during these moments. Argyle even prefaced Mike's behavior in this episode by calling his shirt a shitty 'knock off', just like how Mike was acting, FAKE!

If it were any other season, Mike would've asked Will if he was okay. Instead, for the first time, he's now bottling up that instinct. But why?

I think it could be a combination of things honestly, and that's probably most likely.

I think after the reunion at the airport, Mike came to the conclusion Will was showing symptoms of experiencing a crush on a girl, genuinely, for the first time. And so as this is starting to unravel, Mike's going from wanting to get to the bottom of it, only to backtrack, wanting to abort the mission entirely.

I also think a part of it could be that, Mike himself is obviously not okay. And so maybe he feels slightly unequipped to handle asking Will if he's okay, knowing deep down he's not okay himself.

I also think that, this is a TV show. And so if they're choosing to not let us see Mike's true emotions outright, specifically in relation to him picking up on Willis behavior, then there must be for a reason for that, right?

It must be because the surprise they're saving, relies on us assuming for now, just like Will, that Mike doesn't like him back. Everything taking place as of now is moving the plot forward, with a plan for this revelation to be revealed closer to the end, as opposed to now, in the beginning of the end.

Having Mike blatantly stare at Will the whole season, out in the open, would've made the revelation that Mike feels the same in s5, anti-climactic. However, having subtle evidence that Mike was staring at Will most of the season, which most viewers missed all the signs of, despite them being there, is going to make the revelation that Mike feels the same in s5, epic.

On top of everything going on, I think it's important to also acknowledge that Mike feel's indebted to El. He will never not feel like he owes her everything, and that she deserves the world. And so this whole situation isn't just about Mike's repressed feelings or insecurities or whatever. It's also about Mike trying as hard as he can to be who he thinks El deserves and therefore who she needs him to be. It's the least he can do.

Only problem is, that person is not him and it can't be him.

And so we see Mike overcompensating because he feels like El deserves these gestures and there is this expectation of what they should do because they're bf/gf (THATS BC SHES MY GF, WILL). There's the pressure of that on its own, combined with Mike grappling with Will's behavior over his crush on a girl, which just makes Mike feel even more insecure about his relationship with El.

Arguably, for a while now, Mike has probably become somewhat aware that he doesn't have as strong of romantic feelings for El as he might've thought he did at one point, or even lead her to believe. And Will presumably gifting this girl a painting... like, it's got Mike really self reflecting like, 'SHIT! I'm clearly not down that bad for El... and so, does that mean--'...

This huge insecurity for Mike, with the whole I love you thing, is just getting so big that he can't ignore it anymore, because he KNOWS what he sees as real love, ie, his feelings for Will + what he assumes to be Will's feelings for this girl, and that.. that's not what he feels for El. And so he holds himself back from taking that step in saying it, all this time, because he doesn't want to lie.

And yet, he still tries.

He tries to act interested in everything El has to say. And it's not even that he's not interested in what she has to say, it's just that this act of ignoring the fact that Will doesn't appear to be okay, while also acting like he's having the time of his life, requires a lot of focus. And even despite his performance being pretty believable, the truth behind his actions still falls through the cracks.

I saw someone post about this recently (if anyone knows who, pls comment), and it's this shot with the three of them in the booth at Rink-O-Mania, where we see El resting her hand, palm up on her lap under the table, in a way that makes it look like she's waiting for Mike to take it.

Holding hands under the table is the kind of gesture a couple does when they want to share a moment of intimacy, without making others around them uncomfortable over their PDA.

But that's the problem isn't it? Mike is overcompensating with a lot of these gestures he does with El, like bringing her flowers, putting his arm around her, kissing her forehead, holding her hand. He's not doing these things because he wants to have this kind of intimacy with El (we know that he doesn't because he literally squished his gift for her, in between them when they reunited, so that he had an excuse for them to separate), but because he wants to be who El needs him to be. He also wants to be believable in his performance that he's not shitting bricks over all of this back and forth with his best friend.

And so what even is the point, if no one can see Mike's hand holding El's under the table? If Will can't see it?

Then to top it all off, in the middle of Mike's subtextual dig about how his milkshake is 'better', suddenly Angela is rolling up to them.

And it's at this point that Mike's whole facade really starts to crumble, where he can't even fully pick up on what is happening with El and Angela, because he's too distracted by Will, followed by trying way too hard to act like Will 'longing' for Angela is not affecting him (NO BUT WHY IS MIKE LITERALLY THE 'IM FINE THIS IS FINE' SIPPING HIS COFFEE WHILE THERE ARE FLAMES SURROUNDING HIM GIF HERE???).

What I love about this shot is that it can easily be overlooked and confused with Mike genuinely not caring about Will at all. And that's what is so incredible about subtlety. Something as subtle as no emotion at all on Mike's face, a renowned facial expression enthusiast, can somehow say so much more about Mike's true feelings for Will, than an outright look.

For this whole shot, we're assuming we're in Will's perspective, which happens A LOT of the time in s4 (even in Milkvan scenes) because like I said, whenever Will is in the frame while Mike is also present, we tend to hone in on him a little more than the others (THAT'S INTENTIONAL).

Still, whenever you see Mike creeping out of the frame, we now know it's arguably fair game that Mike could be staring at Will at this very moment, while Will, and the audience, are distracted.

Which is why this happens...

We do not get any shots of Mike at this time. Until....

The second Will voices worriedly, "Oh no!" Mike is jumping out of his seat, standing next to Will, turning to face the same direction as him, like, "What?"

I'm sorry but, it's just not natural for Mike to have responded to Will instantaneously like this, within the context of what he was doing the last time we got a shot of him, especially in this case, where Will wasn't even speaking directly to Mike.

The only way it makes sense for Mike to have spawned beside Will like that, is if Mike was already looking at Will...

Him responding that quickly, meant looking at Will while he spoke, hearing what he said, and seeing where he was looking, so that Mike could jump up that fast, ready for whatever Will was reacting to.

Will is reacting to the scene of El and Angela in front of him.

Mike is reacting to Will react to the scene of El and Angela in front of him.

I want to bring up @dinitride-art's Lighting and Mike and Will and El - Full Analysis posts (specifically the ones related to Rink-O-Mania, but there are plenty of others they have in that thread, that could help everyone try to better understand a lot of s4 scenes as well). Without them, I never would've realized a lot of this.

The main points I want to touch on from their analysis', is the use of the disco ball in these scenes at Rink-O-Mania and how they often operate to tell a story, one that often has Will at the center...

Let's try to keep in mind that disco balls often act as focal points whenever they are in a space, in this case, the rink at Rink-O-Mania. Disco balls are covered in mirrors, which reflect tiny beams of light throughout a room... Are you catching my drift?...

Yes, undoubtedly, lighting plays a big part in telling the story, along with music!

@lesbianmindflayer has done a video on this, but basically the lyrics to the song You Spin Me Right Round (Right Round) are also hinting at POV and context to these scenes, like music often does in ST.

One specific example she uses of this disco ball in action (combining both lighting, framing, camera-movement and music,) is when we go from Mike's POV, with the disco ball above Will (Mike being bummed Will didn't even look at him or laugh at his sock joke) to El's POV with the disco ball above Mike (El after being called out by Will that Mike is going to be mad when he finds out she's been lying).

So, keeping all of this in mind, watching Angela drag El to the middle of the rink, directly under the disco ball, with that snarky 'stay put!" comment, only to laugh knowingly... followed by Mike finally paying attention to El properly???? And this is what it took??? A spotlight?? And not only that but Will directing Mike's focus to it like, 'Hey, dude! Maybe pay attention to your gf bc she's having problems here' (I'm sensing a pattern...).

Unfortunately, it's too little too late.

As this is all coming to a head, Mike feels horrible about being too distracted with the fact that Will wasn't okay, that he wasn't able to pick up on the fact that El wasn't okay either. And so tries his best to fix things by getting the music to stop and to go comfort El.

But then El's running away, out of the spotlight and fittingly out of Mike's focus.

While looking for El, him and Will begin bickering.

Now, Mike knows the painting must not be for Angela. He's embarrassed and he's pissed and he's upset, but he's also just even more confused. The instinct to figure out why Will was upset, is unwavering. Now that his theory has presumably been debunked, Mike slips back into this old habit.

"You were rolling your eyes, you were-- you were moping, you were barely talking, you basically sabotaged to whole day!" aka "You're clearly not okay. I thought I knew why, but I was wrong. It's been miserable".

What Mike gets by subtly calling out Will for his behavior, is the revelation that, yes Will was upset El lied to him, but he was also miserable over the fact that he felt like a third wheel all day.

More angst and miscommunication ensues.

Though all too soon, El is hitting Angela with a skate and everything is happening so fast.

In the following episode, things get even more interesting.

We start with Mike standing next to Will, away from El. We get another shot that's arguably Mike's POV (@dinitride-art did a really good analysis on this shot, please check it out for further details)... but basically it proves Mike's whole 'I've never been scared of you, EVER' part of his monologue, followed by thunder, was indeed not exactly the truth.

And what follows in the next scene is even more damning.

Because what we get for the first time this season, is a shot of Mike, front and center, looking at Will, and interestingly enough, while Will isn't looking ..

Even though they are giving this to us outright, it's still not blatant. And I say this because, again, I can guarantee you most of the audience didn't pick up on it.

This shot was arguably necessary for the context of everything that followed, with Mike saying that rude remark to El at dinner.

Because it turns out Will was right for being upset about El lying, just considering everything that's played out this evening. And on top of that, Mike's also still reeling from the fact that Will was upset because he felt like they weren't best friends anymore. This was apparently enough to be a big part of the reason Will was miserable all day, aka Mike was miserable all day because of his perceived misery of Will who himself was also moping because Mike wasn't paying attention to him. This is news to Mike, as he's been lead to believe the opposite up to this point, seeing as he's also the one whose been making most of the calls, unanswered.

TBH this scene in particular provides a really important aspect of this theory as a whole, because although it seems minor and blink and you'll miss it like all the others. Unlike the majority, it shows us something that could very well hold the truth to something we still don't quite understand. More on that at the end.

I also don't want to forget the most hilarious Mike POV evidence of all, and it's the infamous 'triple take' in the junkyard.

Some bylers noticed this pretty early on, while others probably still don't have a clue about the implications.

Allow me to explain.

Within the context of subtle Mike POV vs. unreliable Will POV, let's think about how this sequence starts with the audience looking at Will. He's hoeing (because he doesn't have a shovel). Then suddenly, after a few seconds of the camera being focused on only him, we see Will now looking up at Mike, with him stopping and staring as he does so.

Once we get a reaction shot of Mike, we see he's not shoveling, he's actually standing still with the shovel resting on the ground, staring down, almost in a daze, zoned out. But then suddenly, he's looking up at Will. And the expression he makes once his eyes reach Will, is....

Pining. It's pining, your honor.

For a split second, this is the expression of a person looking at someone with whom they assume isn't looking.

Mike goes from still and focused, to wide eyed, as he scrambles back to shoveling.

The general audience actually interpreted this scene fairly accurately, it's just that they got it wrong it terms of whose actually doing the pining.

Because arguably, if Mike could sense Will looking at him, whose to say Will couldn't sense Mike?

Whose to say it wasn't Mike who was initially staring at Will, which is why he stopped shoveling in the first place. Though at some point while he was watching Will hoeing, with the camera focusing on him, just like Mike, Mike zoned out to collect his thoughts. And so, when he looks back up, to return to staring at Will again, only to discover Will was already looking at him, he understandably went, OH SHIT MISSION ABORT.

THEY ARE USING EDITING TO SAY HEY LOOK AT WILL! SEE HOW HES GLOWING? SEE HOW HE'S IN THE CENTER OF THE FRAME? IN FOCUS? ALMOST ALL OF THE TIME? ALMOST AS IF WE CANT TAKE OUR EYES OFF OF HIM???

WAIT!?...

WHERE'S MIKE?

OH THERE HE IS!

WE ARE MIKE!!

All this time we were convinced the POV was definitively Will's, with Mike's POV missing. And so therefore, a lot of bylers at least, have made the likely claim that Will's POV cannot be reliable. But what if it is reliable, in that finding out a lot of these moments of us getting Will at the center, was also a part of Mike's POV all along... meaning it's not inherently unreliable, in that in and of itself it holds the truth...

Now, you might be thinking, why couldn't they have shown us Mike staring at Will, at least once, if this is in fact what's happening a lot of the time?

And oh honey... They did.

Isn't it almost poetic, that the moment they FINALLY decide to show us the truth, a shot, with both Will AND Mike in the frame, equally, with Mike continuing the stare at Will the second Will looks away (even if it's for just a small, albeit drawn out moment) this is what follows:

Will handing the painting over to Mike.

Everything. All of this miscommunication about a girl and the painting, essentially Mike's very own unreliable POV has been leading up to this moment.

Which brings me back to this...

WHY!?

WHY HAVE PARALLEL SHOTS OF MIKE NOT LOOKING AT EL IN THE VAN SCENE IN 4x03 VS. MIKE LOOKING AT WILL IN THE VAN SCENE IN 4x08???

WHY HAVE MIKE BE IN FOCUS AND UNBOTHERED IN HIS SHOT WITH EL, WHILE HAVING MIKE BE OUT OF FOCUS AND APPEARING.... EMOTIONLESS ALMOST (REMEMBER WHAT I SAID ABOUT PRESUMABLY EMOTIONLESS MIKE??? HMMMM) IN HIS SHOT WITH WILL?

WHY HAVE MIKE'S MOST CONSISTENT, REDEEMING TRAIT, HIS ABILITY TO SENSE WHEN WILL'S NOT OKAY, BE PRESENT EVERY SEASON, ONLY TO REMOVE IT BLATANTLY THIS SEASON, BUT LEAVE SIGNS THAT HE IS STILL INDEED PAYING ATTENTION IN THE SUBTEXT, ONLY TO HAVE IT ALL COME CRUMBLING DOWN, TO NOTHING, WITH THIS SCENE!?!?!?!?

Does this mean I'm trying to indoctrinate everyone into fully believing Mike knew Will was lying and even crying in the van scene? No, because honestly, I don't think I fully believe that myself. I also think that to say a scene is definitively this or that is naive because, for all we know the story depends on certain scenes having certain truths over certain periods of time.

Like right now, maybe they want us to believe that Mike didn't understand Will, and the story requires us to look at it that way, for now, and also going into s5?

We know that the Duffers would prefer that the average fan doesn't pick up on byler. And so arguably, there are a lot of layers of awareness happening here, regardless of this specific theory. Just in terms of all the assumed truths and the actual truths. There's what the ga assumes vs. what bylers assume, but I think there could be another hidden truth beyond that, perhaps what they knew bylers would assume based on what they said ('he just missed it, not in a bad way/while he may not fully pick up on it--' Duffer's talking about Mike in the van scene), and they were anticipating all of that, meaning despite all of our expectations, there's very likely a surprise in store for us as well.

I do want to make clear, despite me thinking this all makes a lot of sense, as a byler it's like DAMN why couldn't we get the exact moment Mike realized it and like, get to see him act on it?

I think that's the ideal situation? But even still, this theory explains a lot.

It means Mike never stopped paying attention. It also explains why he gravitated towards Will at the end of s4, after his failed love confession. It explains why he looked heartbroken after Will encouraged him to confess his love to El.

We talk about this all the time, but because there are so many tiny moments, where it seemed like Mike realized something over the seasons, we'll find posts saying this moment or that was THE moment. But what I really think it is, is the uncertainty and the hope and the denial all working against each other. Arguably, Mike has already has his realization moment plenty of times by now, in little moments. It's just that what he's been experiencing is, something along the lines of, he loves me! he loves me not. he loves me! he loves me not, and so on and so forth.

His behavior over the seasons, has been impacted by this confusing, back and forth miscommunication between him and Will.

All very remanent of the lyrics to Time After Time if you ask me...

[thebramblewood]

Meanwhile, unbeknownst to her, Helena's other suitor is courting her in a very different way.

Previous / Next

Transcript under the cut.

Tim: "Jesus! Where the fuck- Can I help you with something, creepy goth chick?"

Lilith: "Oh, yes, my darling. You're about to help me very, very much. Any last words, pathetic mortal boy?"

Tim: "WHY ME?!? What did I do? Please, no! I'll give you whatever you want! Just not-"

Lilith: "Shh... no more talking. Time to be quiet now."

[aa-400]

tag game!!!

its been a Hot™ while since ive seen one of these whew

rules: tag nine (9) people you want to know better and/or catch up with, then answer these questions below!

tagged by @keepthemacramesecret hell yeah thank u arthur!!!

four ships: these are just current faves because four is such a tiny number gfghgf

arthur/john (malevolent) (to the surprise of no one lmao) wrightworth (ace attorney) lord arum/damien/rilla (the penumbra podcast) kojiro/kaoru (sk8 the infinity)

last song: flowers by miley cyrus (dont judge me its catchy!! also idc that its some post-breakup single life empowerment anthem im choosing to view it through aroace lenses)

currently reading: i have a bunch of audiobooks i rotate as bedtime listening but uhhh the king in yellow by robert w chambers, the farthest shore by ursula k le guin, and the first welcome to night vale novel by joseph fink and jeffrey cranor. also i really need to finish jonny sims' thirteen storeys, its so good but im so bad at sitting down with a physical book these days

last movie: i uhhhh cant remember? mightve been klaus which i watched in december before christmas. i dont watch movies much lmao.

craving: nothing at the moment!

tagging: @curiousrei @lintunen @nurmilintu @ceruleanmusings @ft-the-stars @safitheartist @monoshiki @ohnebulae @quietalight

[rotisseries]

inspired by elli's poll lol cause this seems fun actually but if you guys have bad answers I'll kill myself on your doorstep or smth