#idgaf if people hate Lucien

[separatist-apologist]

People who hate over fictional characters amaze me because I don't have the energy nor the time to carry any hate for anyone. It's too exhausting for me.

I don't care if people don't like characters. You're not gonna vibe with everyone, and that's fine. I've read books and I'm like, oh no thank you many, many times.

My issue is and always has been how people use the most dogshit arguments to justify their hatred and those arguments hurt actual, REAL people. Elain isn't fucking real, for example, and has no feelings to consider because she's words on a page. You can't hurt her- she isn't a person. But people write whole think pieces comparing eluciens to rapists/red pill incels for thinking there is something interesting between those two characters does hurt REAL people.

Not even mentioning how often people in this fandom go after real ass people, harassing them for not liking their personal faves. There is someone stalking the AO3 Feyre Archeron tag and harassing authors who write anything that could he perceived "anti", and uses actual slurs against real people in defense of a character who will NEVER thank you for it.

That's my issue. Victim blaming fictional characters- they don't care (not real), but the people who identify with the abuse, the assault, the story of triumph having to read your ill-informed, frankly dumb fucking opinion that they lied about their sexual assault because there were no witnesses (they apparently trust)? Real scenarios that happen so often it's the reason I have employment.

It's like, people can't just say "I don't vibe with this pair/ship/aesthetic". They have to make it their social justice cause as if there is any social justice that is built on bullying/harassing/being a piece of shit to real people. People who can't seperate fiction from reality and think if you like a fictional scenario/bad guy character, you OBVIOUSLY support that in real life. Enough nuance to understand why their faves committing crimes are fine, but everyone else should be openly bullied, and they'll follow them from social media site/discord chat to do it.

That's what I find exhausting, personally. Same people crying about how toxic the fandom is constantly baiting the other ships trying to start shit, stalking people who have them blocked, and acting like they have any moral high ground. It's pathetic, it's giving friendless energy, and I'm happy to see more and more people just blocking these types and engaging with creators/other fans who came here to have fun.

[nesta-attorney]

Nesta is a c*nt but she has done no wrong in my eyes. She owes nobody.

Gwyn is a BOSS ASS BITCH. She’s a Nesta stan (as she should be) and the hottest redhead in Prythian. (Soz Lucien, ily)

Bryce is unapologetic and idgaf if she don’t tell people shit, SO WHAT.

Danika has done everything she could to protect those she loves. Her and Bryce are two different sides of the same coin. She has done nothing wrong in my eyes.

If liking strong female characters makes me a fucking mean girl, allow it. I hate the hate all four of these women get. Be fr, if all of them were written in TOG you’d all gobble them up.

Fr fr. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[shadowqueenjude]

For your fic asks:

✅❌🥺🙋‍♀️🦅

🧠 - everyone’s least fav grandma, Amren

✅ What's something that appears in your fics over and over and over again, even if you don't mean to?

Somehow Elain’s healing powers always come into play, and somehow she’s always delivering a baby. I swear it’s not even intentional but idk I guess I just love the idea of Elain being a healer and also still embracing a bit of a darker side, like she loves unloved creatures such as snakes and tarantulas. In this case, being unperturbed by the bloodiness and brutality of giving birth and helping give birth.

❌ What's a trope you will never write?

I don’t really know if this counts as a “trope,” but the soft girl-tortured bad boy combo is so icky to me. Examples: Bella-Edward, Elriel, Evajacks

🥺 Is there a certain type of moment or common interaction between your characters that never fails to put you in your feels?

Elain touching Lucien’s scars😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭I know bro hates their appearance bc he prides himself on his looks but Elain is gonna help him learn to love those again. Also Eris telling Nesta that she is worthy of love and she was never the villain😭😭😭😭😭😭

🧠 Pick a character, and I'll tell you my favorite headcanon for them.

Amren, in my mind, is 100% nonbinary and aroace, idgaf what SJM says. I also think SJM ruined Amren’s character by making her survive the war and turning her into a Rhys dick-sucker who suddenly hates Nesta. Like please, she’s immortal, she shouldn’t care that much; she should still like Nesta. Blah blah blah Nesta needed to be friendless or whatever; so why not just kill her? It made her sacrifice really lame in ACOWAR.

🙋‍♀️ Do any irl people know you write fanfic?

NONONONONONONO THAT WOULD BE SO EMBARASSING

🦅 Do you outline fics or fly by the seat of your pants?

I write based on vibes and impulse and nothing is ever planned. I thrive in chaos.

[bookofmirth]

Am I the only one who kind of doesn’t want Eris to turn into a Rhysand 2.0? One of the things I really liked about Eris is, him being portrayed as this morally grey character in ACOWAR. He brought some nuance into the series, because so far, all of SJM’s villains have always been very one dimensional and not fleshed out enough. Now with Eris, she could give us a character whom readers are conflicted about, who does unredeemable things as well as good things, like for example be a support for Lucien. I don’t want him to turn into this guy, who all this time hid his true personality behind a mask, hence excusing his past behaviour.

Also, I realised that readers in this fandom are generally very quick to judge a character based on one scene. Apparently, it only takes Eris telling Cassian, he doesn’t know the whole story (about him and Mor) and Cassian telling Eris he isn’t a monster, for people to come to the conclusion, that Mor is the guilty party, bash on her even more and praise Eris. Don’t get me wrong, I love Eris and I know that some people have loved him before ACOSF, but I kind of wish that the fandom would sometimes look at things from a wider spectrum and not take things just as they are. This is probably because of SJM’s writing style and her habit of telling not showing, but it really bothers me.

Hope you're having a lovely sunny day!

MEEEEEE okay I'm gonna rant about how much I dislike him, and how much I hate the fandom reaction to him right now.

I know this is a popular take right now, that Eris is just Misunderstood™️ but honestly?

idgaf about Eris. He can choke.

Eris didn't have an entire court to protect. He didn't have to sleep with Amarantha against his will for 50 years to protect his reputation, thereby allowing him to act evil but actually help people under the radar (e.g. making sure Clare Beddor didn't feel anything). He didn't have to leave Mor the way that he did, without telling anyone what was happening. I hate the comparison between him and Rhys, if only for the simple fact that Rhys had way, way more responsibility on his shoulders than Eris has ever dreamed of.

Cassian was right to say that Eris is a coward. He's a bargain basement Walmart generic brand Rhysand. Lucia @aelin-godkiller made a great post about Eris here, and yeah it came out just after acofas was published, and yes we've had acosf since then, but honestly???

Eris saying "you don't know the whole story" is... not enough reason for me to give a shit about someone who makes traumatized, queer character feel fear. Him actually slut-shaming her in a circumstance that in NO WAY called for it is... not okay??? Like even if there was more to the story when they were betrothed, him saying that she "still dresses like a slut" 500 years later is not called for 😂If he does know that she is queer, which was heavily implied, then maybe making digs at her sexuality is... a complete asshole move!!!! And an intentional one!!!!

Honestly, I hate Eris, I hate how the fandom is so eager to believe the slightest word from him, but it doesn't surprise me given how eager people are to believe that Azriel is also secretly a soft boi who is just being harmed by Mor being Not Into Him. If sjm is knowingly constructing this narrative wherein a queer victim of abuse is questioned for their truthfulness when speaking about that abuse and homophobia, and wherein a queer character's queerness is most important for how it affects the straight people around them, then I will burn my books istg.

EDIT okay sorry I went off on your ask, especially since you said that you like Eris haha.

I just have very strong feelings about him. And I have very strong feelings about how the fandom reacts to him and Mor, because I think that it reveals more internalized misogyny than reactions to Elain ever have. SJM really does tell and not show, but people insist on looking for what she is showing. It’s just honestly not that deep, and the fact that she has potentially constructed this narrative of “queer hurt woman is likely lying about her trauma” just makes me ill. I hope that’s not where sjm is going with this, I really hope. But we will see.

[moiraineswife]

What proof do we have that Eris is abusive, other than that characters have said he is? Most held a similar opinion of Rhys, what's the difference? That we have a first person narrator who is privy to the backstory of one but not the other? I'm not trying to be aggressive but I want to know your thoughts. I thought showing was more important than telling in storytelling.

Okay then, like, what ‘proof’ have we got for literally 90% of the things in this series???? Feyre is a 19 year old human girl in a world full of immortal fae. You want an eye witness account for everything in this thing, do you?

 How do I know the war happened the way they said it did? Feyre never saw it, she’s only had characters tell her about it. How do I know Rhys actually hated what he did with Amarantha and didn’t just swap sides right at the end? How do I know Rhys’ dad sucked but his mother was a good person, I’ve only heard him tell me about her, I’ve seen it. How do I know Tamlin’s brothers were awful? Never seen them either. How do I know Beron is really that awful either, I mean maybe he’s wearing a mask too and all the characters are just wrong. How do I know Mor is queer? I’ve never seen her with a girl before, I just have her word for it, maybe she lied. How do I know literally anything in this entire series because WE GET TOLD MOST THINGS NOT SHOWN THEM. 

This is what happens when you have a limited first person pov. The character HAS to get told things in order to tell us things like ???? A little bit of common sense please, do you want me to like, historically fact check Prythian for everything that Feyre tells us about it??? 

And tbh SJM has a pretty crappy habit of doing the whole ‘telling over showing’ thing anyway. See: the entirety of the Throne of Glass series, Mor’s powers in ACOTAR (she’s awesome, really, we promise, we just haven’t actually SEEN her do anything), the assertions that Rhys and co are ~the most powerful ever~ have I actually SEEN that? Can I actually see that? No.  Do I really question these things? No. Because I understand that this is the only way I can actually get some information out of this story and if I only went with what I ‘saw’ and disbelieved everything else I’d have literally nothing?? 

And when it comes to the whole Eris thing, like, dude, it’s not just a couple of characters who’ve said he’s abysmal it’s like, wait let me make a list: 

Tamlin: “His father had her put down. Executed, in front of Lucien, ashis two eldest brothers held him and made him watch.” That would be Eris. So at best you’ve got conflicting statements here. 

Lucien: “Lucien crossed his arms, leaning against the back of thecouch. “I have to agree with Cassian. Eris is a snake.” M, yes, Eris, HIS OWN BROTHER. If anyone was going to know Eris was ~not a bad person~ it’d be Lucien. Lucien who lived in that court. Who knew him. Who Eris apparently cared enough to protect/save, according to him. Eris who apparently cares so much about his mother (as we have seen Lucien does SEEN that is SEEN with our own two eyes) Why the hell would Lucien not know Eris was ‘wearing a mask’. Or maybe...Eris really does suck. 

Rhys: “Eris refused to marry her. Said she’d been sullied by abastard-born lesser faerie, and he’d now sooner fuck a sow. [...]Rhys said withsoft wrath, “Eris left her for dead in the middle of their woods.” Idgaf how he tries to spin it later, this is what happened.  

Cassian: “You’re working with that prick,” Cassian cut in, whatevercatching-up now over, apparently. He moved to Mor’s side, a hand on her back.He shook his head at Azriel and Rhys, disgust curling his lip. “You should havespiked Eris’s fucking head to the front gates.” 

Amren: “Your whole family is despicable,” Amren said to Lucien.

Mor: AtMor, whose face went white with dread. [...]Or at Eris, heirto the Autumn Court, as he strolled into the room. 

[...] 

And I had the terrible sense that Mor had gone somewhere far,far away as Eris set down his goblet and said, “You look well, Mor.”

The sight of him triggers actual real panic attacks and flashbacks that we can literally see from Feyre’s POV. Five hundred years after the fact and Mor is still traumatised enough by what he did to her to react like this even after all that time. 

Then we have Feyre’s POV herself. Through her we’ve seen Eris laughing alongside his other brothers as Lucien was tortured and nearly killed. 

“I don’t suppose your handsome brothers know, Lucien,” shepurred.

“If we did, Lady, we would be the first to tell you,” said thetallest. He was lean, well dressed, every inch of him a court-trained bastard.Probably the eldest, given the way even the ones who looked like born warriorsstared at him with deference and calculation—and fear.

 Ah, yes, that would be Eris actively promising help to Amarantha in order to damn Feyre and continue her reign. Then there’s the way Eris hunts down Lucien and Feyre in the Winter Court, actively harms them both. So that’s like...Basically every single main character in this book who’s told you Eris sucks. 

What’s the basis for believing that he doesn’t, out of interest? I mean what ‘evidence’ do you have that he is actually wearing a mask, what do you have that’s so strong it goes against the testimony of multiple characters? Oh I know! You have Eris’ word for it and that’s it. Wow. So unbiased. So convincing. Eris tells us he’s not really a bad guy and that outweighs the half a dozen people who tells us he is! That’s just. Damn. What logic. Can’t argue with that. 

Also, like, I’m sorry, but Rhys’ arc was done properly, Rhys’ redemption wasn’t a retcon it was a followed-through on plan. There were hints UtM that Rhys was not as black as he was painted (He killed the Summer Court faerie outright rather than leaving him to suffer, he repeatedly came to visit Feyre in her cell when no-one else would, he was honest with Feyre about the treatment he received at Amarantha’s hands (a vulnerability on his part), he told her why he was making her dance every night as well as the steps he put in place to protect her, he sent music to her and saved her life, he saved her life and Tamlin’s with the kiss (which Feyre is aware of), he tried to save Feyre’s life while Amarantha was torturing her) 

Rhys was a complex, morally grey character UtM and it’s possible to show a different side to him and a ‘mask’ because there were always hints of him wearing one. What if Ianthe told Feyre she was actually a secret agent working for Prythian but she was forced to act the way she did to keep her cover? What if Amarantha said she’d only dominated Prythian that way to save it from something worse and she too was wearing a mask and working for the greater good? What if Hybern said there was a bigger threat facing them and he had an ulterior motive to this war (and also, I mean, how do you really know Hybern is that awful, we’ve only ever had people tell us about him, maybe he’s misunderstood too!!!!)  @valamerys wrote this out far better than I could in this post, read it too. 

My thoughts are pretty simple, tbh: SJM decided to “”””””redeem”””””” Eris, likely to have him set-up to take over Autumn, now Lucien isn’t an option for that before what with the whole dramatic lost son of Day thing and she did a crap job of it. Like this isn’t some grand morality based character debate that’s going on here, SJM just handled this poorly. In order to make him seem not so bad she had to undo all of the canon that she’d set in place before hand and offer ‘alternative’ explanations for what happened that we’ve never heard about. 

If she planned this all beforehand, if Eris was always wearing a mask why weren’t there hints of it before? Why didn’t she have Tamlin tell Feyre he got an anonymous tip-off the day he saved Lucien’s life from his brothers (which is what Eris claimed). Why wouldn’t Lucien defend him a little, say at least he cared about their mother/was sometimes kinder to him than the others? Why wouldn’t Rhys say that in the arranged marriage that petrified Mor, Eris was as unwilling as she was, that he argued against it? (Eris would have gone through with this marriage regardless of what it did to Mor if she hadn’t slept with Cassian) Why wouldn’t Eris stay quiet UtM or not show up to watch Lucien’s torture (which he does repeatedly)? Why, why, why, why, why would SJM not do something to show us that there might be more to Eris? Unless this was just a sloppy, last minute retcon to redeem a gross, abusive character who still to do this day petrifies his victim? 

Like, if you consider showing to be of more importance than telling in stories....You’ve picked a mighty weird hill to die on here with Eris. Because this is literally the worst example of telling not showing in this entire series. There is no basis for anything that happens with Eris’ character in ACOWAR and the only thing we have stacked against the evidence of two and a half books is what Eris says and how he personally spins the story like ????

 Idk dude, we can have a convoluted, let’s bend over backwards to redeem this guy and show he was misunderstood and has been wearing a mask so convincing it’s never ever ever cracked even once this entire time, to anyone! Even people who’ve known him for centuries....Or we go with the simpler: SJM really didn’t plan or execute this story very well at all. Which seems more reasonable?  

[separatist-apologist]

I once went to one of their inbox to tell them to please stop tagging elucien if their posts is just about bashing elriel and they basically told me to f*ck off and they can "do what they want" or whatever. I swear, these are the same little sh*ts that would complain about Elriels tagging elucien.

It's the fact that it's always the same 5 people that have literally no hobbies but complain about Elriels. They're lurking in the gwynriel tag too. They're covering the sweet content we're looking for with their bullshit posts.

"Look what these Elriels say-" NO I DON'T WANNA LOOK CAUSE I DON'T CARE! WHY ARE YOU STALKING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE???

I don't want to see the hurtful stuff they say about Lucien and Elucien, nor do I care about their theories and Interpretation. I blocked the elriel tag and some elriels so that I won't have to see their posts. Heck, I'm avoiding acotar content on Tik tok and Twitter just so I won't see anything elriel and anti elucien related. If I wanted to see anti elriel content, I'd go to the anti elriel tag. It's that simple.

The thing is, I also tried to be more open to the Elriel ship. I'm very confident in Elucien, but should Elriel be endgame then I want to be okay with it. However, these little shits that constantly shove statements from toxic elriels to my face make it very difficult for me. It brings me back to "Elriels are so toxic" thoughts.

Sry for the long rant. It just angers me.

Babe, I once told people to stop taking the bait and they told me to get off my high horse so I feel you on that. Is it getting on a high horse to say that not everything on the internet is made in good faith and by answering obvious trolls...you give them the fight they want? Wow you sure showed them.

But at its core, LB said it best. It's not a bipartisan system and you actually can't tell anything about a person based on the ship they like. If some folks had any self awareness they'd realize they are literally no better than the people they claim to hate and for every one person hyping them up, 8 others feel discouraged and burned out from all the negativity. A fandom can't sustain itself on pure spite- you need people who passionately love the series enough to draw art, write fic, create headcanons etc etc, and to that end you have to let go of the utter boring obsession with what is and is not canon.

I took screenshots of that post, and one person said "the author wrote it that way for a reason???" and to that I'd say, she wrote enough to make elriel a very popular ship, too. Are we picking and choosing? Are we saying you're not allowed to ship something if it isn't canon? No more Neris, no Rhysta, no Casslain, no Azris? And who gets to decide what is and is not canon? Someone on that post was discussing what "true" eluciens are, which excludes me along with a vast swath of other people.

I didn't elect any of these people to decide what I was allowed to write about or commission art for- Like the cherry picking so people can be faux outraged and then take screenshots of one of the most popular artists in the fandom, with a VERY distinct style to create a victim narrative that allows them to feel good about bullying is just overdone and boring at this point.

Anyway, I'll always advocate for blocking people and creating spaces that feel good. And I'll continue saying that if you hate something that much, you should stop engaging with it. No one is ever going to change my mind about elucien, I'm confident in my choices and even if SJM doesn't go that direction, I'll still be writing elucien like idgaf. The constant looking each other up to talk shit reeks of insecurity and boredom. Couldn't be me.

[bookofmirth]

You express a lot of things you were afraid to say in this fandom.

I feel like it's all about what Az needs and not what Elain wants.

Always hearing that Azriel needs to be chosen because he was rejected, because he suffers for another woman, and so on.

But is Azriel the only one who has been rejected all his life there?

Before, it was that they liked that Elain was a virgin and chose Az who always felt rejected.

Elain never showed any real interest in meeting Az.

They don't rely on what the other wants, they're not friends and they barely know each other.

And I'm very much in favor of romance, more Author to convince me the Couple really needs to talk, and I'm talking about intimate conversations inside the pages, you need to have the girl showing that it's not just attraction.

All sexual attraction doesn't mean you're in love together. Attraction does not go along with Love in books or in real life.

Only if it's those cliche books that women get only one man, but Badboy gets all women. Understand what kind of books I speak.

And Cass in Acosf even claimed that Elain could talk to other men if she wanted to.

And actually they say the next one is the Book of Elain plus all the theories and questions revolve around Azriel and his love interest.

Apart from Acotar 5, the obvious thing is that the book is by Az because in the shipp and solo theories of the characters, everything revolves around Az and as always putting Elain and Az together.

It seems more like Az is the one who suffers the Forbidden Love, Az who will refuse Lucien etc...

And Elain is being fitted into a theory that always leads her to Az.

And folks, Az is not the only one who is rejected by his family, who suffered from an abusive family there.

And let's be honest, Az has traumas from the past, but today, he's part of a family chosen by the heart, and he's the spymaster and his brother is a High Lord who would die for him.

Placing him as the poor thing diminishes much of what Rhys, Mor, and Cass varies for Azriel to be happy, and puts them Sim, as an antagonist in Az's life.

Even Sarah won't be that inconsistent.

You express a lot of things you were afraid to say in this fandom.

Yeah I have zero fucks at this point. I can't be bothered making my point clear to people who refuse to take the time to understand, just because they know I ship elucien. Not when people in this fandom take one sentence out of context and make it into a human rights violation that they still can't get over a week later.

ANYWAY...

I feel like it's all about what Az needs and not what Elain wants.

Always hearing that Azriel needs to be chosen because he was rejected, because he suffers for another woman, and so on.

But is Azriel the only one who has been rejected all his life there?

LITERALLY.

We have no idea what Elain feels at this point, let alone what she wants. We had wayyyyyy more explanation from her about wanting to help find the trove, but somehow the fandom doesn't care about whether the IC respected her wishes in that scene? Why not be up in arms about that??

Nesta Azriel

🤝

disrespecting Elain's wishes

Anyway, I can't wait to find out what Elain really feels and thinks and wants in her book! Because I truly think that it's going to be nothing like people expect. I think it's going to be 90% family history and conflict, and then like 10% other stuff (le sex).

I freaking hate the idea that Az has never been "chosen" his whole life because it's literally untrue. He has a found family, he has besties, he has a good job, he has a home, he has control over his life in a way he didn't growing up, he now has his new Valkyrie friend Nesta and his nephew Nyx. He's surrounded by people who care about him! Even Mor said that she loves him, it's just not in the way that he wants.

So what, exactly, is Az lacking? The thing that he is lacking is self-acceptance, and that's not going to come to him because of any woman. idgaf who it is. That's something he needs to come to himself.

Az has traumas from the past, but today, he's part of a family chosen by the heart, and he's the spymaster and his brother is a High Lord who would die for him.

EXACTLY.

Placing him as the poor thing diminishes much of what Rhys, Mor, and Cass varies for Azriel to be happy, and puts them Sim, as an antagonist in Az's life.

This is an interesting point... don't forget Amren tho. Although she probably wouldn't care, she'd just roll her eyes while she waits for everyone else to get their shit together. But we can't act as if Rhys and Cassian never befriended Az. As if Rhys's mom didn't step in as a mother figure, literally putting a roof over his head and food in his mouth. As if Az doesn't currently have more power than any other lesser fae - which he isn't, btw. The book literally tells us that Illyrians aren't lesser fae, so that's not even a box people can check off in the trauma olympics.

[bookofmirth]

I don’t understand why all sides of the fandom are getting so upset over evil Elain or evil Gwyn theories?? Because these theories actually do nothing to discredit ships??

I mean I think it’s pretty clear that even if one of them turned out to be working for Koschei, it would likely be because they were misled or forced into it. Like I’ve seen a theory that Elain is trying to turn human again and Koschei promised to help her, but then she got in over her head. Or if Merrill was working for Koschei, Gwyn could’ve been helping her accidentally or was forced into it, or if she was a lightsinger it would probably be a plot point where Gwyn tries to overcome internal conflict over what it means to be a lightsinger and try to do good instead of evil.

SJM really doesn’t do well with moral ambiguity, and I have a very hard time believing she would just make Gwyn or Elain evil beyond redemption, if they did end up working for the villain in some way it would certainly be a plot point in the book where the love interest helps them along the way and it ends with the couple getting together.

That’s why I don’t understand all of the uproar in the fandom over this. Evil!Elain or evil!Gwyn doesn’t negate the idea of romance with Azriel. SJM isn’t just going to make secondary characters go through an entire villain -> redemption/healing arc off the page - they would be the main character/love interest of the book (SJM usually focuses all of her character development on the main characters of each book while the others only have small arcs or remain stagnant). If Gwyn was a lightsinger that would completely go hand-in-hand with Azriel being a shadowsinger and a plot centered on them and their romance. If Elain was evil that could fit in with an Azriel or Lucien romance where they find out and try to help her or something.

I completely understand that there is misogyny in fandom and that these theories are often spread to try to villainize another female character, which I hate has become so common in this ship war. But tbh, I don’t think these theories do a good job of discrediting the opposing ship to begin with, as explained above. And personally, I am interested in an evil!Gwyn or evil!Elain (I don’t care which, as I ship gwynriel and elucien) happening with a redemption arc because I want to see SJM tackle more complex character development and I enjoy morally grey characters.

Personally, I think that people relate too much to these characters across the board, and a lot of times people take any judgement, evaluation, criticism, analysis, or commentary about a character and think "hey if I love that character, that person must think that about me, too!"

Um, no. Separate yourself from the fictional character. It's good that you relate, but someone saying "omg Elain is sus" is not a personal condemnation of you for liking her! (You is not you, anon.)

I do see why people are more sensitive about the idea of Gwyn being evil. It doesn't help that as a sexual assault survivor, a lot of this discourse, well... We know who she was compared to, and it did nothing to help the overall credibility of the argument re: Gwyn being sus, because the emotional reaction or engagement of the audience was completely dismissed before the argument had even begun. Now, I think that argument is irrevocably tied to that moment in fandom time. Well, maybe not irrevocably. In two years or whatever when 90% of the fandom has moved on I'll still be here, in my rocking chair telling everyone about the time when...

SJM really doesn’t do well with moral ambiguity, and I have a very hard time believing she would just make Gwyn or Elain evil beyond redemption

lolol FOR REAL her villains are... not great. I think some people would argue that she is doing a good job with Eris, but since idgaf about him I'm not the best judge. But yeah, she would never make either character irredeemably bad.

I agree that the theories don't do a good job of discrediting the ships themselves. Elain or Gwyn being sus doesn't mean they can't be in a relationship? They can be a lightsinger or try to be human, and then be just fine and go off having babies or whatever.

To me, the Elain one is 100% about who she is as a person and what I think she might possibly want. Even if it were true, there's no reason that she couldn't then be with either Lucien or Azriel. Or Tamlin lol.

The reason that lightsinger theory bugs me is that it's so freaking out there. Even if she were a "good" one, the support for that theory is like Swiss cheese!!! If I sneeze it falls apart. I know it's all fun but people talk about it like it's canon. If it happens in the future, that's fine, it could be neat.

I wouldn't mind if either of those stories ended up happening, or both; I think that the comparison I mentioned above really soured the idea of Gwyn being sus for a lot of people, and people are ready to jump on anything and anyone they see as slightly problematic. I did see someone say that the idea of Elain being sus is actually problematic and that kinda killed me. Like how? Anyway...

I think we should all just take a minute, calm down, put the group chats on mute for an hour, separate ourselves from the characters, and then remember that the people we are talking to online are real people, and that Azriel or Gwyn or whoever is not going to fingerblast us in gratitude for defending them.

Cuz like you said... sometimes there is misogyny in fandom, but screaming "misogyny" is going to make someone a more righteous shipper. It's just going to call their critical thinking skills into question.

Thanks for this ask! I thought it was really well stated and I like seeing that other people can take off their shipping goggles.