#it just doesn't work for the mdzs story

[thebestestbat]

raven and jgy are also kind of complete opposite characters bc jgy's entire teenage and young adult life was about trying to find a way to become his evil father's right hand man and raven's entire teenage and young adult life was about avoiding her evil father's attempts to make her his right hand woman.

[tvxcue]

like theres inevitably going to be comparisons between tgcf and mdzs bc they were written by the same author and mdzs feeds into tgcf and they do have a lot of points of similarity but they’re also so different. and it makes for interesting stories in conversation with each other bc they’re basically inverted.

like they both have the same focus on the main relationship that makes the story revolve around them but the thing abt mdzs is that even though it’s abt wangxian, it’s also not abt them. tgcf is explicitly abt xie lian, the whole story and plot revolves around him not just bc he’s the main character but bc he’s the focal point of the antagonist which is what makes him the main character in the first place. like xie lian isn’t a passive character but he’s not very active in moving the story along, he’s kind of just floating through it while other characters bring him into it. and it culminates with bwx and that entire confrontation but even from xie lian’s first ascension it was all something that was orchestrated for him to respond to.

but with mdzs, yes wangxian are incredibly active characters making all these choices that move them forward in the story but they’re just a footnotes in the novels action. wei wuxian and lan wangji’s story is abt them and their relationship and the bigger plot serves as a backdrop for that. in the drama it is a little different bc the bigger story kind of “clears” wwx’s name and kind of changes things for him in that regard but in the novel, it doesn’t even really do that, it offers questions about morality and righteousness that do change how certain characters feel abt wei wuxian and challenge the structure of the world they live in. in the end, the big confrontation is abt other characters finally revealing themselves while wangxian basically make out in the corner like they don’t give a fuck who killed whose brother! yeah wwx still saves the day but it’s not abt him even though it is quite literally abt him as the main character.

[fateandloveentwined]

wuxia, xianxia, and cultivation differences meta

translations: wuxia 武俠, xianxia 仙俠, and cultivation 修真/修仙 (xīuzhēn/xīuxiān)

think i've seen posts on this eons ago, and i'm pretty sure there are tons of these online, but since this has been written up already let's just have another one.

wuxia 武俠

wuxia and xianxia sound similar, but basically for wuxia it is about the pugilistic world (江湖 jiānghú). It is relatively more down-to-earth, and people practice martial arts ("kungfu") in their current life -- they do not do it to become xians (仙) and gods (神) however.

Like Thousand Autumns and Faraway Wanderers/Word of Honor, it has more historical background and ties to the current court and kingdoms, because people are living in the moment and concern themselves with worldly issues.

Martial arts may seem unrealistic, but in view of chinese fantasy it would be considered "real". It consists of fighting moves and internal energy, which they call qi or nèigōng (內功), and at times you see people flying around, climbing hills and jumping across rooftops which is qīnggōng (輕功).

xianxia 仙俠

A level up would be xianxia, where characters in the story cultivate to become xians (and gods, like in the heaven official's blessing). They don't really care about earthly issues here now, because their ambitions lie beyond the current world, and cultivation, getting stronger, and an immortal life are majorly all their goals.

You may not always see them working towards that purpose, such as in mdzs they are considered a lower-xianxia society (低魔), meaning people don't go through all the steps of cultivation and only stay at the stage before the "golden core" stage.

In xianxia, characters still learn basic fighting moves aka. martial arts, but to direct the internal energy they use línglì (灵力), zhēnqì (真气), and fǎlì (法力), all xianxia terms you commonly see. "neigong" is practically nonexistent in this genre. That's why people building up their "neigong" instead of "lingli" are likely never going to be able to cultivate.

cultivation 修真/修仙

A subgenre in the xianxia category would be cultivation. Characters actively go through the stages of cultivation, and likely for the MC, because they are the main character, they successfully become a xian and exit the world at the end of the novel.

There are many stages of cultivation, usually defined at the beginning of the novel in the synopsis, and a typical example of the different levels would be this:

练气，筑基，金丹，元婴，化神，炼虚，合体，大乘，渡劫

And with a cursory search, an English translation would be something like this, albeit not with all the cultivation ranks identified.

Qi condensation (练气), Foundation establishment (筑基), Core Formation (金丹), Nascent Soul (元婴), and the names after that vary too greatly with translation and fandom so I'll jump straight to Immortal Ascension

extra info: getting into the philosophy of it all

It'd be interesting to note that the word "xiá" (俠) permeates all these genres. This is something akin to the concept of "hero", but not at all also, and I'd love to speak more on this but this post has already gone way longer than I hoped it would be, so perhaps another day.

Regardless, it is interesting to note that wuxia has a greater emphasis on "xia" than xianxia. (some joke that cultivation doesn't have the word "xia" in it, and much of that is because characters have foregone heroism and focused on gaining powers and working towards ascension instead). As a result, wuxia is more confucianism-oriented, though not without its taoism and buddhism influences.

xianxia, on the other hand, is mainly derived from "dào" (道), from taoism, which is another lengthy concept if I ever get to it.

And some may have heard of the "farming" genre, 种田 (zhòngtián). This has to do with golden fingers (mary sues) in imperialistic china, earning a wealth of money, and all that. It has nothing to do with cultivation, alike they sound in english.

that's it for now, hmu if you wish to ask/discuss!

(and apologies for the pinyin translations, hope it's understandable still! formally writing pinyin they are supposed to be two separate words not one.)

[baiwu-jinji]

TGCF author's notes translation

@/camilikha on twitter kindly provided links to TGCF author's notes and I translated the ones I find informative and interesting. See translations below:

chapter 58 notes: The second book is all about the overconfident Xie Lian with delusions of grandeur and the tender little flower (mxtx means kid Hua Cheng) and their diaries of the downfall of Xianle. Word count is undecided, I'm never accurate at estimating word counts anyway. It's just like the xianxia I write doesn't fit into your regular xianxia, the royalty I write doesn't fit into your regular fictional depictions of royalty - just the outlandish made-up worlds and social customs in the author's imagination...

chapter 60 notes: If we put Qi Rong in a modern context, we could say that he has bipolar disorder.

chapter 72 notes: about the chapter title "To Meet You in the Mortal Realm; to Find Flowers Beneath the Rain" - eventually I feel that "To Meet You" is more romantic than "To Meet Someone". Just think about it, "meeting you" is one of the most romantic things in the world.

chapte 80 notes: Of course (HC) won't give (XL) a handjob or help him [...], but Huahua's sexual awakening starts with this incident... (XL is seriously obssessed with martial arts combat!)

chapter 88 notes: Xie Lian never gets tanned, I envy him... I finally reached this place - in a dilapidated temple, a god about to be forgotten and a believer who's still young - this is the first mental image I have about this story, which drove me to wrote the story. I'm the kind of person who'd make up a whole book just to get to write a certain passage...

chapter 119 notes: Actually Huahua is just being naughty and wants to joke around playing dead, who'd have thought...

chapter 123 notes: So Black Water made his appearance long ago, he's been hanging around before your eyes all along. Wind Master never knew the real Mingyi, it's always been the same person before him - and before you readers. (Black Water) officially recognized as Best Actor of this story! I've been holding it a secret for so long and so has he, now I can finally let it out.

chapter 141 notes: If you heat up Huahua in the kiln, he'll grow bigger~

chapter 175 notes: "Hua Cheng! Your diary! We've read it all!!!"

chapter 229 notes: Huahua low-key sucking up to the elderly to make a good impression

chapter 242 notes: Why do you like to spook yourselves? - why on earth would there be such plots as (XL) waiting for another 800 years - too long, impossible! Happy ending is around the corner!

SVSSS is my first work so it has some exceptions that I won't discuss here, but MDZS and TGCF both only have one main couple. I said this repeatedly in the author's notes when MDZS was being serialized and in other places. As for Mo Xuanyu, he is a little gay dude but he died at the beginning of the story so he doesn't count as a serious character...It's fine to have headcanons you like as long as you don't seperate the main couple. But for me personally, my taste leans towards having only one gay couple in the story, and I have no plans to write about another secondary couple. I'm stating this to avoid some unnecessary disputes.

XL is good at making pickled vegetables. Because pickled vegetables are needed with steamed bun and rice porridge, so XL became quite experienced after practicing for hundreds of years. Also you can just leave the pickled vegetable by itself most of the time and let it undergo chemical reaction. XL mostly fail because he get inventive.

XL and Mu Qing chose the same path of cultivation and are both Daoists. But Feng Xin never studied under a master at the Holy Royal Pavillion so he's not a Daoist and simply a plebeian martial god, so he doesn't need to observe the celibacy rules like XL and Mu Qing.

My passion for inventing new dishes (or rather weapons) cooked by Xie Lian is only slightly less than my passion for making Huahua change into new clothes

Huahua often turn into human forms, in which he has two eyes, so you guys can stop counting the number of his eyes.

In the setting of this story, if you want to be a god,you need to be a human hero first, which means you need to be the best of the best among humans. Only heaven officials who ascended are real heaven officials and belong in the Upper Court. How do you ascend? Firstly it depends on your personal ability, you have to be outstanding in some aspect (such as martial arts or literary talents) to enter the path of ascension. Secondly it depends on luck, if you're extremely lucky and a favourite of fate, and just picked up some rare secret guides (to ascension) or immortal pills by the roadside, that works too. Officials in the Middle Court are appointed, which means someone in the Heavenly Realm could promote you to that position. But Middle Court officials have the opportunity to become a bona fide Upper Court official too if they're capable enough.

Black Water indeed owes Hua Cheng a huge sum of money and is a very impoverished Calamity, seriously lowering the income standard of the Calamities (although there're only three of them). But his debt isn't completely due to eating too much. As for the money Black Water owes, it's an ancient debt - 40% is the cost of buying gifts for heaven officials of Upper Court and planting agents there (bribery!), 30% is maintenance fee for his territory and expenses on pet food, the rest 30% is food (for himself).

Talismans are probably the equivalent of the business cards (of heaven officials)... "Hello this is my consecrated talisman" = "hello this is my business card"

You can't get rid of ghostly essence (which XL is tainted with because he spends too much time with HC) simply by brushing your teeth with plain water...you need to use consecrated spell water (which is super bitter and weird).

The weapon forged by a heaven official is called fabao (literally "dharma treasure"); if it's a weapon forged by mortal Daoists and monks, it's called faqi (literally "dharma tool") - only after their ascension can their weapons be called fabao.

In my imagination, Xianle ia the kind of small ancient kingdom that's overall culturally Han, but has peculiar customs...although I feel like what I wrote on Xianle is mostly just peculiar hahahaha [facepalm] [beat myself up]

Not only are the forms, customs, cultures, and politics of countries in this story made-up, the kind of arcane stuff like occult sciences and philosophical values are all made-up. Although I did research but the records I consulted are too difficult to understand, so I just made things up on my own. Please bear with me If you're knowledgable in this sort of thing hahaha.

Puqi refers to water chestnut.

Look up "Blood-Soaked Fire Social" (xue she huo) if you're interested, it exists in real life and is very thrilling. What I wrote is different from the traditional festival, there're some made-up elements to make it more exciting

[necroworldbanshee]

After Tumblr put yet another post about the who’s-mdzs-narrator discourse on my dashboard (and a very insulting one at that) I’m starting to wonder… does English storytelling work in a different way from how it works in my language? Or it’s just that nobody here can tell narrator from pov?

This is going to be long.

[Disclaimer: since I'm not from an English-speaking country, I never actually studied storytelling in English, so I might not knows the correct English term for everything.]

In both my first and my second language, we have:

Narrator = the one that narrates the story. It can be internal (a character narrates) or external.

Focus = the point of view from which the story is narrated. It can be internal (one or more characters pov), external (objective narration) or zero (the narrator knows* everthing = omniscient narrator).

*knowing everything =/= telling everything

Sometimes you have an external narrator with an internal focus, but that doesn’t make the character which pov we're seeing the narrator.

Internal focus might also change during the narration. Different sections (chapters, paragraphs, sentences...) of the story might use different povs.

If there’s a single pov for the whole story, that’s called fixed internal focus. If two or more povs alternate, it’s called variable internal focus. If the story has two or more parallel povs, that’s a multiple internal focus.

And you don’t need to take writing/reading classes or be an author to know this. It is literally in my 7 y/o nephew's summer homeworks.

Anyway, in mdzs we have:

Narrator speak in third person = external narrator. Easy.

Narrator knows everything that happened, in every moment and in every place, knows characters' thoughts and feelings = zero focus / omniscient narrator. Still... easy? At least, I think that's easy.

I think what confuses people here is that we get mostly Wei Wuxian's thoughts and feelings, but... that's because this is Wei Wuxian's story, you know? It doesn't mean the narrator doesn't have access to other characters thoughts/feelings. It's just that (most of the time) they're not important for Wei Wuxian's story.

Also, not every omniscient narrator has to tell us everything from the begging. That's actually a quite old-fashioned type of narration.

In any case, it's not like we don't get other characters' povs ever.

For exemple:

Jiang Cheng seethed. He very much hadn’t expected this outing to be so wretched. Originally, he had come to help Jin Ling, who would turn fifteen this year and thus should be embarking on his career, competing with other juniors for experience and reputation. Jiang Cheng had carefully sifted through the options before choosing Dafan Mountain as their hunting grounds, and then covered the area with nets to scare off cultivators from other clans. Because the nets would make navigation very difficult, they would have no option but to leave, thus eliminating the competition and leaving the prey to Jin Ling. Though four hundred spirit-binding nets cost an exorbitant price, it wasn’t much to the Yunmeng Jiang Clan. The actual destruction of the nets was a small issue—the big issue was the loss of face. The fact that Lan Wangji had done such a thing made bitter resentment bleed from his heart and circulate up towards his head—the higher it got, the more resentful he became. He narrowed his eyes, and unconsciously or not, began stroking the ring around his right index finger with his left hand.

[from "Pride II", Fanyiyi's tl]

Here we have Jiang Cheng’s pov. The narrator tells us Jiang Cheng's previous actions, his thoughts and his feelings. This couldn't happen if the narrator was Wei Wuxian.

And then again:

“Sizhui, you’re the most mature of everyone. Take care of them. Do you think you’re up to it?” Lan Sizhui nodded. “Don’t be afraid,” Wei Wuxian said again. “I’m not afraid,” he replied. “Truly?” “Truly.” Lan Sizhui even smiled. “Senior Mo, you and Hanguang Jun are really similar.” “Similar?” Wei Wuxian said with surprise. “How are we similar?” He and Lan Wangji were clearly as different as the heavens and the Earth. But Lan Sizhui just smiled, said nothing, and led the remaining people outside. I don’t know either, he thought silently. But you two just feel similar. It feels as though as long as one of you two seniors is present, I don’t need to be scared of anything.

[from "Flora V", Fanyiyi's tl]

Here we can see both Wei Wuxian's and Lan Sizhui's thoughts. A very big and clear sign of omniscient narrator.

Another thing that people in this fandom don't get the way I expect them to is the difference between an omniscient narrator and an external narrator with variable or multiple internal focus. This might be tricky I guess, but mdzs doesn't have an alternation of povs, nor parallel povs. So, still omniscient narrator.

And, before someone says "but that's just because mdzs switches between fixed internal (from Wei Wuxian’s pov) and zero focus": fixed means fixed. If it changes every other sentence to add informations the character doesn’t know, it’s by definition omniscient! Omniscient narration doesn’t have limitations. It already includes every character pov and much more. You don’t need anything else!

So, mdzs has an external narrator with zero focus (= omniscient narrator) that narrates Wei Wuxian's story and sometimes withholds informations for plot reasons. And I don't think that makes it an unreliable narrator**. That's just standard narration to me.

Now, given my non-existent knowledge about English literature, what I’d like to know is: do these things work differently in English? Or people on Tumblr should just open a book from time to time?

Not that it really matters, since mdzs isn’t an English novel. What we should actually wonder is how Chinese storytelling works.

** Unreliable narration should be about the narrator's credibility, not about how many informations it gives you and if they're presented plainly/in a transparent way or not. About this, I've once read a really good article about how nowadays it's the reader that has become unreliable, in the sense that the reader doesn't even try to understand the story or make deductions anymore.

[wangxianficrecs]

Looked so alive, turns out i'm not real by KatAnni

Looked so alive, turns out i'm not real

by KatAnni

M, 36k, Wangxian

Part of the MDZS Big Bang 2024

Summary: "Nothing leaves the Burial Mounds alive." Lan Wangji goes on a side mission night hunt with Wei Wuxian during the Sunshot Campaign, and finds out just how true that statement is. Inquiry rings through the room, and Wei Wuxian answers. This of course, has consequences. For the MDZS Big Bang 2024, Collab with Sweetlittlevampire Kay's comments: This story was meant for WIP Rec Week but it posted quicker than I was able to rec it! But it had me aboslutely hooked from the first chapter. Stunning writing and art! A story in which Wei Wuxian maybe doesn't really return from the Burial Mounds alive and Lan Wangji finds out during the Sunshot Campaign and I'm so hyped. Had some really strong cliffhangers in this story and the built-up to the happy ending was devastating. Featuring beautiful art by @sweetlittlevampire Excerpt: As if his strings were cut, Wei Ying crumbled to the ground, his head meeting the floor with a sickening sound, and Lan Wangji was on his feet immediately, Wangji clattering to the ground with a dissonant sound. “Wei Ying!” He sat next to the prone form, his hand shakily reaching for a shoulder, the other a wrist. So still. Not moving. No pulse. “Lan Zhan?” His voice was groggy, as if from far away. Lan Wangji was still holding his wrist, and tried to still his own heartbeat at the lack of one from Wei Ying. “What- Hey!” Wei Ying was on his feet within the next second, his hand withdrawn, and Lan Wangji stared up at him. “What did you do?!” His voice was suddenly sharp, accusing, unforgiving. The flute, that cursed black flute, was in his hands, pointed at Lan Wangji like a knife. Lan Wangji stared, unblinking, as realization seemed to dawn on Wei Ying, as his brows drew together. “You made me say that, with that song! How- Why-”

pov lan wangji, canon divergence, temporary character death, sunshot campaign, major character death, sentient burial mounds, hurt wei wuxian, hurt lan wangji, not actually unrequited love, wei wuxian's three months in the burial mounds, fix-it, somebody lives/not everybody dies

~*~

(Please REBLOG as a signal boost for this hard-working author if you like – or think others might like – this story.)

[twilightarc-gm]

Why do you like jiang cheng?

At the risk of liking him for the wrong reasons, let me be verbose and annoying about it.

A short anecdote: I finished the donghua before the novel and I liked JC's aesthetic so I was happy to have that imagery in my head for the novel, but mostly I came out of the donghua like "cool story, the ending was frowny face though" and I came out of the novel like I was lost in the IKEA store "there's stuff here but it's not what I want and it's organized in a way that's hard to navigate through." Bit like giving me a puzzle to solve.

Anyway, imagine a cat bapping at a thing trying to get fandom to show me what to do with MDZS (i.e. reading fanfic) and then I come across anti-Jiang Cheng stuff.

//record scratch

I'm sorry what?

Why?

NO.

I started then on Shuangjie reconciliation fic and quickly evolved into Jiang Cheng "Apologist" ((I actually don't think he has anything to apologize for even if he would do so anyway.))

I've been in the xianxia/wuxia sphere of media consumption for a year or so before trying out MDZS and JC just fits so well as the main character of his own story; destined for a position of power through birth, friends with someone in his life that causes conflict, seemingly betrayed by said friend when needing that friend the most, losing and losing and losing as his trust in said friend proves unfounded because the friend walks a path he can't follow, and then he's left with the tragedy that befell the world because--ultimately he trusted this friend too much.

It's a classic story of love and attachment and how good intentions can have massive consequences. Two men entwined by fate and in the end there's a battle on a hill (off screen in this case) where one is forced to "kill" the other.

MDZS could have ended with the past timeline, and I would have liked it more but at least in the present timeline we get Jiujiu and a-Ling.

Anyway: Excerpts and Commentary Below about WHY I LOVE JIANG CHENG, courtesy WANYIN

Of all the clans to offend, you don’t offend the Jiang Clan, and of all the people to offend, you never offend Jiang Cheng.

We stand by a badass mf in this house. The first thing we learn is that he gets credit for killing a big baddy and the second thing we learn is how fierce the rest of his reputation is. He brooks no shit and leaves no quarter. Amazing 💜

Well, I was done for at "gaze like two streaks of cold lightning" so RIP me, I guess. Reminds me of some antis that are like "you only like him because he's hot" which isn't true but it is a nice plus. He's described as inferior to LWJ so like, if it was only about hotness then wouldn't I like LWJ???

“I am his uncle. Do you have any last words?”

At the sound of that voice, every drop of blood in Wei Wuxian’s body seemed to surge to his head but then immediately drained away again. Thankfully, his face was already a mess of ghastly white, so it didn’t look strange when he went a little paler.

A man in purple attire strode over. He was dressed in a narrow-sleeved light robe, with his hand resting on the hilt of his sword. A silver bell dangled from his waist, yet there was no sound when he walked.

This young man had fine brows and almond eyes, with a chiseled handsomeness to his features. His eyes were deep and intense with a hint of aggression, his gaze like two streaks of cold lightning. He stopped and stood three meters away from Wei Wuxian. His expression was like that of a nocked arrow on a bow, ready to shoot, and even his composure was suffused with arrogant pride.

Jiang Cheng ruled the Jiang Clan of Yunmeng alone, so it could have been said that he was in a state of isolation.

🥺 Alone?? And he could still afford 400 Immortal Binding Nets? Self-sufficient king 🤩 And like, his reputation is so fierce and he's boiling over with anger in that scene, but still he restrains himself because he did the cost-benefit analysis! And then later he takes a huge risk on WWX, like he always does for WWX, and that doesn't work out for him--like it always does.

Seeing that nothing had happened to Jin Ling, Jiang Cheng was greatly relieved. However, that relief soon turned into a furious reprimand:

Parent behavior. Enough said.

He has a twisted smile when encountering a trigger for his PTSD and then he decides to fight it instead of letting it paralyze him. He's such a doer. Like, every other moment of the day he's carefully calculating pluses and minuses to every choice (valid) but when it comes to facing his personal demons he's ready to throw down. Excellent.

A moment later, Jiang Cheng’s lips pulled into a twisted smile. His left hand subconsciously began stroking that ring once more.

He said softly, “Excellent. Back, are you?”

He let go of his left hand, and a long whip dangled from it.

“Oh? Then please enlighten me, what is your type?”

Walking A-Spec flag very concerned about what the man who might be his shixiong thinks about him, more at eleven!

Wei Wuxian waved him off and then hooked his arm around Jiang Cheng’s shoulders. “Who cares? I’ll tease him a bit more before I go. You’ve already collected my corpse so many times. Once more won’t hurt.”

Okay but big lol that JC doesn't get to collect WWX's corpse that final time. //sounds of sobbing

A smile appeared on his face, but then he immediately humphed.

He's so grumpy and adorable! I love him! pre massacre JC is precious and I just want him to have someone to bring out that smile again.

He literally didn't have to do this. He makes all these excuses how he'll be embarrassed if WWX is rolling around 😂 Perfection. Boy, you are still carrying him and he doesn't want you to stop.

Jiang Cheng, walk slower, you’re gonna throw me off.”

Not only did Jiang Cheng want to throw Wei Wuxian off, but he practically wanted to bash his head into the ground to create a human crater. “So fussy even though I’m carrying you!”

“I didn’t tell you to carry me,” Wei Wuxian reasoned.

Jiang Cheng flew into a rage. “If I didn’t carry you, I think you’d hang out at their ancestral hall all day, rolling around on the floor. I can’t afford this embarrassment! Lan Wangji took fifty more strikes than you, but he walked away on his own, and you’re not embarrassed, pretending to be an invalid? I don’t want to carry you anymore. Get the hell off!”

“No, I’m wounded,” Wei Wuxian said.

Alrighty, like I'm just going through the entire book at this point.

Let me see if I can make this more concise:

Sacrifices himself despite his very dutiful nature that would oppose this. He throws away all his responsibilities for WWX, again and again, carrying on a tradition of favoring WWX over his own health and happiness. Citing: JFM favoring WWX to the detriment of his marriage, JYL dying to save WWX, and JC (exhausted and with little or no power) running into danger to save WWX ala distracting the Wen patrol and 2nd Siege.

Can't be honest in his affections and makes up excuses to do nice things for others.

Loves and understands his sister. She wanted JZX so he made it happen when LLJ had absolutely no reason to reinstate the marriage contract between Xuanli. JGS notes in the CR arc that he didn't want the marriage for his son in the first place and that there were better options than YMJ, and that was before the war! JC helped her get to Yiling to show off her wedding dress! Even though she married out he still felt so attached to her son he couldn't not co-parent Jin Ling.

Yes, he has Zidian, but he also has a second horsewhip that he keeps on him which is very exciting to know.

The narrative hates him but he survives. (He survives because the narrative hates him).

Most BAMF entrance in the novel at the temple scene with the busting the temple doors down and coming in from the rain with an umbrella. Like sure the narrative hates him but small blessings that rule of cool still counts for something.

Mama's boy.

Just some dude, shows up late to treasury room nonsense, knows all the gossip, no one has faith in him including himself, but he keeps going and doing what needs to be done even when he's so so tired and his shixiong shows up 3 months late with a ghoul lady and a latte, or disappears to liberate slave property without warning first and now he's called into a midnight meeting after trying to get some much needed rest and now he's got consequences to deal with. Someone help him!

An expert at sneering. Threats as a show of worry and care. This makes all the little and brief smiles so much more endearing.

Sandu Shengshou is an amazing title, get out of here if you don't agree. Holy Hand of the Three Poisons? Brutal, perfect 💜 It gets used like, ONCE. Crime against me personally.

Link to Blorbo Sheet for JC

He loves, he hates, he wants to hate he's not allowed to love. Zero middle ground, he's all in and there's no way out.

//is shot and dragged off stage

But just as the Wei Wuxian of the past who’d extracted his golden core for Jiang Cheng had been unable to tell him the truth, the Jiang Cheng of the present could no longer bring himself to speak up.

[ssailormoonn]

❛ You're Mine ❜ - Master list

Yandere!Lan Wangji X Fem!Wen!Reader

REQUESTED? YES (filled request)

TW/CW; X Fem! Reader, she/her pronouns, obsessive behaviour, dubcon! noncon! frequent sex, breeding, size kink, slightly forced marriage, doggy, missionary, prone bone, jealousy, yandere behaviour, kidnapping, bondage, oral, creampie + more ╰┈➤ This anon has asked for this to be a reader insert only asking that the reader having long hair which goes past the waist (as its chinese tradition) and that she is smaller that Lan Wangji, everything else is up to you!

STORY INFORMATION; Follows the plot of MDZS briefly, contains brief events on the Xuanwu of slaughter and the sunshot campaign. This a a Yandere x reader, so if its not your cup of tea, SCROLL. All characters are 18 +

SYNOPSIS; Lan Wangji is obsessed with the reader after she helped him in the cloud recess and now, he doesn't want to let you go.

─── CHAPTER LIST - 4/6 ╰┈➤ total word count 11,100/??

╭ Chapter 1 - 4.1k+ words ╰┈➤ Back story on how LWJ and you met, the Wens burned down the Cloud Recesses and this is when you started to help the Gusu Lan Sect in the aftermath, just like your brother and sister (Wen Qing adn Wen Ning). But as you helped out, you were in a lot of secret meetings with LWJ. But this caused LWJ to fall more desperately obsessed with you than he already was. During the Xuanwu of slaughter, you get captured from the Lan's and Jiangs by your own clan members Wen Xu and Wen Chao because you were helping the 'enemy'.

| Chapter 2 - 2.8k+ words ╰┈➤ You get saved by Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji (individually). But Lan Wangji's obsession turns into love and to repay Jiang Cheng's kindness, you work as a spy for him to help during the massacre of the Lotus Pier event. Which causes Jiang Cheng to fall in love with you. The sunshot campaign was up and running, but it wasn't something you, a healer should be fighting for causing you to get injured. Lan Wangji saves you and brings you to Gusu to hide and recuperate, taking care of you.

| Chapter 3 - 2.3k+ words ╰┈➤ Jiang Cheng searches for you as you left the Jiangs so suddenly, so, Wangji gets the wrong idea, thinking you are lovers. This moment creates just the beginning of his yandere tendencies and his demeanour changes. An argument arises and he kisses you which then leaves you wondering why Lan Wangji is doing this, the HanGuang-Jun is kissing you with such anger. Then, this leads to non-consensual sex but Wangji makes sure to take care of you in the kindest way possible, calming you dow and after it leads to Dubconsensual sex now that you have realised your feelings for him

| Chapter 4 - 1.9k words ╰┈➤ The war has now passed and Lan Wangji is taking care of you and helping you search for your siblings. When you two found them, you requested to stay with them in Yiling, to leave Wangji. But this caused Lan Wangji's already yandere personality to rise to another level. He wants to bring her back to Gusu and marry her, but she doesn't want to, she wants to stay with Jiang Cheng, her siblings and doesn't want to follow the 3000 rules.

| Chapter 5 ╰┈➤ This results in Wangji kidnapping her and hiding her secretly, visiting her to only have sex. He loves her of course, but he spends time with her, not only to have sex, but to be near her. This is the softest Lan Wangji will ever be towards you. You tried to run away from him, only because you felt suffocated hiding, Jiang Cheng tried to help but failed. The second attempt you made by yourself and that soft love you were getting changed, it was only rough, dominating sex. But he accidentally confesses and you did to, which changed the mood, it wasn't rough, but just intense.

| Chapter 6 ╰┈➤ Wangji is satisfied, now knowing that you aren't lovers with Jiang Cheng, that you're just a good friend. So now he has you all to himself, your his and no one else's. Then you two get married, it's just the two of you, his pretty wife. You two celebrate during the lantern festival together and send of a lantern, knowing that it's just the two of you forever.

[qiu-yan]

I think if MDZS was truly about moral good, then Cultivation Society would have been fundamentally changed and everyone who tried to change it wouldn’t be dead. The fact that XXC and SL wanted to change cultivation sects from being dynastic to more merit based and they got such horrible fates is tragic. JGY wanted to use his power to help the more common folk, but he was struck down and any good he’s done is going to be tainted. WWX and LWJ choose to walk away rather than do anything in the novel, so I’m not sure if their actions can be considered a net positive. There’s only so much good they can do as wandering cultivators, there needs to be some kind of structure to help the community but most sects are unwilling to put in a lot of effort if it doesn’t benefit them specifically. There was no social change in MDZS.

thank you for the message! and sorry it took me five million years to get to it...

from a utilitarian point of view, i think you're completely correct: the one individual the novel holds up as the most righteous out of everyone has a far greater negative than positive impact on the world at large; society and the plight of the common folk are in a worse state at the end of the novel than they are at the beginning. postcanon, no matter how much individual nighthunting wei wuxian and lan wangji do, the life of your average commoner is probably going to get more dangerous. you are correct that there was in fact no social change in MDZS. shit did not change on a major scale.

two comments about this: first, the moral framework employed by MDZS is decidedly non-utilitarian. second, as you said, MDZS is not About Moral Good.

first, the moral framework employed by MDZS is not utilitarian at all. wei wuxian and lan wangji are not "righteous" in the way that someone who pulls the lever in the trolley problem can be called "righteous" via utilitarian reasoning; rather, wei wuxian and lan wangji are "righteous" in the way that someone who walks away from omelas is righteous. from a utilitarian perspective, walking away from omelas doesn't accomplish shit because the child is still suffering and one person's absence is not going to change that. from a non-utilitarian perspective, though, walking away from omelas isn't about bringing about a certain result but rather is about living in accordance to your own ideals and code of honor. it's not about helping as many people as possible or about bringing about the best possible outcome, but rather about living your own life without any regrets.

this isn't a philosophy i (a utilitarian) really buy into, but many people do find it persuasive. and though there are still some logical holes induced by protagonist-centered-morality, i do think that MDZS is overall thematically cohesive if analyzed through this non-utilitarian lens. unfortunately, one side-effect of this lens (as well as the general non-utilitarian sorts of philosophies this lens is based in) is that the story ends up somewhat handwaving actual negative consequences.

second, MDZS is not Purely About Moral Good. it has an internally consistent moral framework and it has a lot to say about what it thinks is righteousness, but it isn't a "ringing endorsement of the Correct Course Of Action" book in the same way many other works of fiction are. MDZS is about a certain kind of righteousness, but it's also a cynical condemnation of society, a remark upon the role and unreliability of rumors and hearsay, a subversion of typical xianxia/wuxia genre tropes, an interpersonal tragedy of love and duty and sacrifice and hubris, and a thorough rejection of the just world fallacy. it's also a romance.

i say that MDZS is also a social critique and a rejection of the just world fallacy because, in my view, we aren't meant to read characters like jin guangyao as "unambiguously evil characters who got what they deserved." i do think we're meant to see the way in which society turns on jin guangyao, the way in which that parallels wei wuxian's unfair downfall, and the way in which the genuine good jin guangyao did for the world is now at risk, as a tragedy. as a rather depressing insight upon the morally bankrupt nature of society. MXTX wrote it that way on purpose. you're not meant to read jin guangyao's downfall and go "he got what he deserved;" rather, you're meant to look at the black-and-white, hypocritical, and classist way in which society turns upon jin guangyao as a criticism of that society - one that builds off of the social criticism baked into wei wuxian's character arc.

there is no structural change in MDZS because MDZS is a criticism of society, not a story about how society got better. MDZS posits that this polite society is classist and morally bankrupt, and then does not fix said society. MDZS says "this polite society was hypocritical and self-serving then, and it still is now." in that sense, then, the ending is deliberately rather tragic.

in that sense, then, wei wuxian stepping away from the cultivation world does also feel like him giving up on society. which, from an interpersonal perspective, is fair: he already set himself on fire and literally died trying to do the right thing, so i don't think we can really begrudge him for not wanting to risk it a second time. maybe this time someone else can try to fix things (and die in the process). also, given his and lan wangji's absolute lack of any political ability, it's probably also for the best that they not try to involve themselves in politics to better the world, because realistically they'd probably just make a bunch of enemies and solve zero of the problems.

MDZS tries to give us some hope for the future of its fictional society: both the novel and the fandom (including me myself) posit that said hope for the future lies in the juniors, by whom wei wuxian's generation tried to better than their parents did for them. jin ling's generation certainly seems kinder than wei wuxian's generation. i think we're meant to conclude that things aren't completely hopeless because jin ling's generation, kinder and nobler than the previous one, will try to fix things.

but personally, i'm not sure how i feel about placing the hopes of social reform on the specific personalities of citizens and leaders, rather than the structures those people exist in. instead, i'm reminded me of what i wrote a few months ago about the granularity of morality in MDZS being the entire individual and not the action, by which i mean that MDZS seems to assess and conclude entire characters as "good people" or "bad people" or "complicated and morally grey people," rather than analyze the morality of specific actions. and i think it's because MDZS treats the unit measurements of morality as people rather than actions or policies, that MDZS is ultimately able to posit that the future will be better because a specific group of individuals from the next generation have kinder personalities - even though there was no structural reform. as if the state of a society is determined purely by the personalities of a select group of future leaders within it, rather than the laws and institutions that bind it and the material conditions its populations live in. to put it in other words, this is peak "we replaced the evil king with a Wise And Just king (and made no other changes), so we've saved the day!!!" thinking.

.

i feel like i rambled a lot in this response, so i apologize for its relative lack of cohesion. i hope i haven't misinterpreted your points and that i've continued the conversation in a relevant manner.

[factsilike]

Really tired of constantly seeing posts declaring that everyone in MXTX novels is complicated and 'morally grey' and that's what makes her works wonderfully written, and that everyone else who doesn't see that is stupid, or is 'demonising' characters and bashing them for rightfully criticising their shitty, very much unjustified actions.

And ironically it seems so simplistic to just declare that, because yes her stories are wonderfully written and complex, but not for that reason. You're clearly not reading her works and only spouting what you think her stories say. There are many morally grey characters in morally complex stories out there, but MDZS IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

NONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS (i.e protagonists and their male leads except for LBH maybe) ARE MORALLY GREY OR MORALLY COMPLEX.

THEY ARE ALL MORALLY RIGHTEOUS.

Just take a closer look at their actions compared to the actions of literally everyone else around them, it's not that hard to see.

Not to mention that MXTX herself literally says that WWX and LWJ are both morally ideal and that ahe hopes her readers can be like them, but people seem to have no respect for the word of authors in the name of their self projection onto the characters being contradicted nowadays 😒

(also saw someone dismissively say that HC may think that the world revolves around XL or whatever, but others don't and they're right??

First of all, did you even read the novel? HC made his judgement based on how others treated him versus how XL did when he was a CHILD. And how XL continues to treat others to this day. He is well within his rights to think the world of XL, especially since XL suffered more than every other person and still doesn't succumb to evil, despite having every right to do so, miles more than others. He all but regards XL as his moral compass, because he's proof that truly good people do exist in this world, and not ONE other person in the novel is shown to be as good as him.)

One of the reasons why I really don't like the Xianle Trio is this; neither FX nor MQ seem to regard XL as his own person with his own agency, who is capable of making his own decisions initially as HC does, and only near the end of the novel do they let up a bit when their asses had to be saved by XL multiple times. (especially considering what fools they made of themselves in that spiderweb cave lmao)

Both of them try to enforce XL ALL THE TIME ("Your Highness don't do this or don't do that or don't say this or don't go there or don't talk to him"), as if XL has not survived perfectly well on his own without them FOR 800 YEARS.

The difference between them and HC is clearly spelled out when FC asks HC about why he is not stopping XL, and HC replies that while he may not agree with some of XL's decisions, he would never force him to do what he thinks is correct, something both MQ and FX are CONSTANTLY shown to try to do.

Like please. Xianle Trio who? More like suffering XL and his pair of nuisances who think themselves to be his babysitters. And most of the time he's the one babysitting them.

Another thing that irks me is that their frequent arguments are often played off for laughs, but XL is truly a saint, because if my friends were constantly bickering over petty things all throughout our dangerous journey and giving me nothing but headaches, especially in survival situations, I'd given them the boot a long time ago.

[heeheeehaw]

I love how some fanfics are just the same exact plot of mdzs with a new power system/modern au and the characters are alive. In 50 different universes wangxian are still solving the mystery of that one damn arm and what really really gets me is how everyone else will be alive still EXCEPT nie mingjue because his death is so important to the story. How will wangxian yet again solve the mystery of the mutilated body if the mutilated body isn't there? Fic writers can find away to work around wei wuxian, the protagonist, dying but can't make nie mingjue live because you literally can't have the same story if he doesn't die. I can just imagine nie mingjue asking if there's a universe where he lives and the cosmos, the earth and every fic writer in existence all come together to say "bitch fuck no"

[khattikeri]

prefacing this post by saying this is not a ship bashing post; i like all these ships; i am musing on my own personal preferences

i think the reason why i like wangxian and bingqiu just a little bit more than hualian boils down to the misunderstandings, with the sex scenes of their respective stories being insights into those misunderstandings.

in mdzs, lan wangji and wei wuxian's misunderstandings come about because 1) they were acquainted but not seriously close friends 2) they had to deal with a massive war and its aftermath. lan wangji was worried for wei wuxian's personal safety and had romantic feelings for him. wei wuxian was slowly led to believe over time that lan wangji didn't really like him much and wanted to harm him just like everyone else in spite of wei wuxian's righteous actions.

combined with their respective upbringings as a respectable second son and the dubiously accepted son of a servant who always has to watch his own back, there's a lot for them to untangle after the death and resurrection and feelings realization! but the moment they do realize that they're mutually in love, they jump on the chance to stay together, no more miscommunication, no waiting, no more turning away from each other again.

and the respective sex scene: you explicitly see the peerless illustrious hanguang-jun lan wangji straining, apologetic and still openly nervous during his and wei wuxian's first time. because they didn't talk things out! they were too excited! they were too happy and intent to have each other after all those years of pain so they rushed into it without really discussing anything beforehand. so lan wangji doesn't actually know if wei wuxian is going nooooo~ in a sexy way or if wei wuxian actually seriously wants lan wangji to stop. it's flawed and they work out each other's preferences later on, but they both enjoyed themselves and continue to do so even in future sex scenes.

in svsss, shen qingqiu and luo binghe's misunderstandings come about because 1) former is a modern day transmigrator compelled to not reveal anything about the story or what he actually feels for any of the characters 2) the latter is desperate to understand the former's contradictory actions and to not be abandoned.

combined with several miscommunications and hasty assumptions (e.x. luo binghe thinking that shen qingqiu must've harmed him because he despised luo binghe's half-demon ancestry; shen qingqiu thinking that luo binghe intends to torture him the way he tortured the original story's counterpart shen qingqiu) and you get a fascinating and heartrending dynamic where they clearly adore each other and are dismayed at the idea that it's inevitable for the other one to despise them and want to hurt them. things clear up because they show each other their devotion and intent to stay.

and the respective sex scene: their first time isn't even written to be titillating! they're still in the middle of battle. luo binghe's mind is being overpowered by the demonic sword xin mo, so even though shen qingqiu is okay with dual cultivation/sex to pacify the sword's lust for conquering, it's extremely rough and unpleasant. it is violent and painful and leaves shen shingqiu so battered he looks like he's been assaulted, which horrifies luo binghe when he finally regains his senses.

they're distraught as hell! it traumatizes them both! and yet in spite of that and in spite of their fears of being hurt they want to stay with each other and they actively choose to keep being with each other. they improve their communication and clearly seem to understand each other's quirks and sexual preferences better in the extras and after marriage.

versus in tgcf: xie lian and hua cheng got along with each other from day 1. there was a spark the moment xie lian met san lang on the back of that ox cart. they talked for ages and were endeared to each other basically immediately! even during the ghost bride mission where they didn't really speak to one another, xie lian clearly felt a connection to the mysterious groom who gently and safely led him through the blood rain.

through all their present-day adventures and the final battle, even when they separate by choice or by force of circumstance, hua cheng and xie lian don't ever have a serious falling out. hua cheng is loyal to the bone and xie lian is also deeply drawn to hua cheng; both their respective insecurities are treated seriously and with sincerity by the other. there may be some confusion about each other's feelings, but even that isn't twisted to the point that they completely misconstrue each other's intentions and characters.

there isn't a central misunderstanding or miscommunication between hualian the way wangxian or bingqiu had; just a mutual past to be unraveled, and the looming question of if xie lian will actually act upon his feelings/the fact that he's attracted to and in love with hua cheng.

and the respective sex scene: we don't have any explicit sex scenes due to censorship. everything is in xie lian's rather selective point of view (and he's the type who hides certain details from readers for entire volumes on end!) so the most we get is the skimmed summary: xie lian really enjoyed it and hua cheng is kind of rough. just the implication that hua cheng was naturally amazing and satisfied xie lian fully, without any particularly humanizing aspects or awkward/upsetting first time moments.

of course tgcf is a beautiful story and a lovely romance in its own right, but personally, i found mdzs and svsss's main pairings more compelling because of the misunderstandings and how the sex scenes tied into the characters' personalities and overall relationship arcs.

[silviakundera]

Oooh I like duke su from the show but the one from the novel sounds so much more interesting tbh I love a morally grey character with his own goals who doesn't give a f*ck what the lead is trying to do but has their own agenda and it's a much slower burn. Though with how Chinese dramas operate these days it's no wonder they made him like the FL and start helping her extremely early I don't think they know or even can with how netizens are write anything else.

Though I too love novel Su guogong, I think we're in a real quandary for the adaption.

The censors won't let him be characterized as black as the novel version AND be allowed to survive (see: Eternal Brotherhood where we can have a main character who is a dark schemer with blood on his hands that adores his wife -- only because he's doomed, doomed, doomed!) Boooooo!!! I do not agree that this softening was required for this work nor Story of Kunning Palace. Grr!!

But the change to make the FL and ML interact much more and work together in the 1st half, rather than him observing coldly and uncaring about her life or death -- imo that's a quandary about different mediums and how the audience reacts to them.

I wrote a lil meta post previously about the live action adaption of MDZS and why imo the production was forced to change the WWX and LWJ backstory. Once they decided on a linear storyline, imo the otp had to eventually be friends in his first life with a mutually acknowledged bond. The audience simply CANNOT be asked to wade through 20+ hours of episodes before LWJ as love interest isn't repeatedly rejecting the protagonist. 25 episodes and weeks in real-time of him being only cold & standoffish is too much for most viewers. When consuming the novel, the reader both won't have that stretched out real time delay until the couple are on the same page. And it won't take them 20 hours of reading to get there.

Things hit different for a crafted romance on page than performed live on screen for a 40-50 episode drama.

I can still see the adaption's struggle with this. Su suogong is truly a minor character in the novel and frankly not an active participant in most of the problem > scheme > resolution sub-arcs. He has this whole other full life of his own separate interests happening..... somewhere else. The novel mostly leaves his weekly activities as a black box, an obscured mystery. Drama boy is out there somewhere moving his chess pieces & murdering people for power but the reader often just sees glimpses of him ominously sipping his tea & ordering his minions around. In order raise him to a main, the drama is forced to make him involve himself in the play much earlier - to give him a reason to be on screen that is fully tied in with the main plot & its themes. He has to care about FL by the 9th hour in, and want to support her.... or give up ML status to Ye Shijie. 🤷

We can see the strain of this as 3 episodes may happen and all the screenwriter can do is have Su guogong show up for 5 minutes just to flirt a little and remind viewers he's alive 😂😂 but that's what you gotta do with 40 episodes tbh. I can't disgree that this is a more enjoyable viewing experience.

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

I love how so many interpersonal conflict in MDZS aren't caused by simple 'miscommunication' – they're caused by people being too quick to judge things based on rumours or one-sided information, without consideration for the actual evidence behind that.

The soup incident? JZX only believed the guest cultivator's side of things without consideration of JYL's words. 3zun's fate? LXC only considered JGY's side of the story, without considering NMJ's may have some truth to it (because in his mind, JGY had a justifiable reason for all his actions). Sunshot-era Wangxian conflict? LWJ believed the unfounded* narrative he was taught around what guidao does, contrary to what the only source of evidence was saying, and it's this that leads to WWX constructing a barrier between them. Their final confrontation at Nightless City? WWX came to the conclusion that LWJ was against him, hated him too, despite the fact that "any sane person would be able to tell that Lan WangJi’s voice was clearly shaking" (EXR, Chapter 78), due to his mental state at the time.

This same mindset is also leveraged by other people, for varying purposes – whether it be JGS blatantly lying about WWX's words in the hopes people would believe him, or NHS spreading false rumours about the man-eating castles at Xinglu Ridge in order to stop people disturbing the sabre spirits (of course he uses this mindset in his plan to utterly destroy JGY as well, both directly and to contribute to the view NHS is useless). And that mindset also creates the main driving antagonistic force – the rumour-driven mob mentality so present in the world.

I just love how present this theme (the harm of coming to conclusions based on incomplete evidence) is in the novel, even when it's not drawn attention to**!

(more discussion under the cut)

Now, there are obviously other factors to the conflicts above – and in most cases, these reactions are understandable (WWX's misreadings due to his mental state at Nightless City, for one thing, but others, too). For example there was evidence that appeared to be there supporting LWJ's views on guidao: WWX did appear paler, there would definitely have been differences in his health vs the health of those with a working Golden Core, and he was quick to anger and did seem more arrogant than before, even though that was moreso a combination of trauma and constructing an image that meant nobody would look into the matter of his Golden Core too closely. So argubaly, he did weigh the evidence he had, and it just led him to the wrong conclusion! But none of that means this aspect wasn't a major factor in those conflicts – just as it doesn't mean that LWJ didn't instantly disregard the other side of the story (WWX's words), and came to the wrong conclusion partially because of it.

That also doesn't mean the characters can't learn from this or change their conclusion – LWJ comes to accept WWX's words towards the end of WWX's first life, LXC does open up to the potential flaws within JGY when Wangxian raise it, and after he's seen NMJ's corpse, due to receiving strong evidence (the wrong melody and cleanly missing pages in the Collection of Turmoil, for instance). If he only started suspecting JGY after he shows his cards at the Guanyin Temple, he wouldn't have done things like block JGY from the Cloud Recesses, for instance.

(And, a final note: the problem isn't that these characters chose the 'wrong side' of the issue to see it from – their process would still have been flawed even if they came to the right conclusion from its other side. The problem here is that none of them consider both and weigh them up to judge.)

––

*Regardless of whether you believe guidao has an adverse effect on mental state, and it isn't just trauma – WWX is the inventor of guidao! So any pre-invention speculation about the effects of guidao was, by the word's definition, unfounded... and these teachings were certainly pre-invention! So though I do have an opinion regarding this, it doesn't affect the point.

**Chapter 30 is a good example of when it is: '[LWJ:] “One should not comment without understanding the whole picture.”' (EXR) – but it appears in many of Wangxian's actions throughout the present day section of the novel (especially in regard to teaching the Juniors).

[veliseraptor]

Top five spiciest untamed opinions!

man, I've been in my own little corner of fandom for long enough that I feel like I struggle a little to parse what is spicy of my opinions and what isn't, but here's a go at it

The Untamed is a show with complex, morally grey characters that's telling a slightly different but not inherently inferior story. Maybe I'm just a bit defensive about this, and I have with time come to appreciate a lot of things about the novel over the way they play out in the show, but The Untamed was the first version of the story that I fell in love with and I think at least some of the criticisms of it overstate the degree to which it morally simplifies the story. I think, whether because of requirements of censorship or other reasons, that the moral messiness of the story is subtler, I don't think it's absent, and while Jin Guangyao in particular falls victim to a pretty intense villain edit the narrative still has plenty of sympathy for him (even if the audience, all too often, does not). I think it's telling a slightly different story (as others have discussed), but I think it's a strong adaptation that still works with the underlying themes of the text.

However, that being said, The lessening of Wei Wuxian's culpability, as in the introduction of the second flautist, weakens his character. I feel like the character of Wei Wuxian as we see him in The Untamed still has the recognizable flaws of the character from the novel - I think the degree to which they're sometimes claimed to be toned down is overstated, which I think I've written some about before. He's still at least a little arrogant, causes problems, has a definite temper, and doesn't always respect other peoples' choices, among other things. But what The Untamed does do is remove some of his culpability, or at least temper it - both for Jin Zixuan's death and the massacre at Nightless City, which are two moments that contribute to a strong tragic arc in the first life, which makes for a more powerful (imo) arc in the second life. Removing, or at least lessening, Wei Wuxian's culpability for Jin Zixuan's death and Jiang Yanli's death makes him more a victim of circumstance than of his own human flaws, and at least for me, a character who is doomed by their own flaws is a far more compelling one than one who just happens to fall victim to outside forces. It makes him, I would argue, more passive and less of an active force, and I think the culpability for those two deaths - and the loss of control that causes it - makes for a more powerful narrative than that of a man who is victimized by someone else's actions.

Jin Guangyao was a good Chief Cultivator. I see people talk about him as though he was corrupt and evil and just plotting all the time, but the Bad Things™ he does mostly happen before his tenure as Chief Cultivator and, even taking those into account, have a limited impact on the world at large (with the exception of Nie Mingjue's death, but even that I would argue has more personal repercussions than broader political ones). As far as his responsibility for the cultivation world at large, we have no evidence prior to his downfall that he is negatively perceived by people, except for the fact of his birth/origins.

this is more MDZS-related than Untamed specific, but: MXTX deserves praise for writing "problematic" and messy queer sex, but it's just not hot. I don't have a whole lot to add on this one, but one of my least favorite parts of some corners of The Untamed fandom are people who are thoroughgoing MXTX antis who are quick to cry about the ~problematic~ aspects of Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian's sex life (which, honestly, I think are overstated a lot of the time, as is the weirdness of the sex scenes); however, in my opinion, the sex scenes as they stand just aren't very sexy, and I don't think that's intentional (as it arguably is in SVSSS). The sex scenes may be a shortcoming in the text, perhaps, but not the one certain people think it is.

this is again a stronger argument in the novel but I think it's present in the show as well: Jin Guangyao and Wei Wuxian are "there but for the grace of god" foils, but not in the sense of Jin Guangyao being "Wei Wuxian if he made bad moral choices" but in the sense of "who Wei Wuxian could've been if his circumstances were different." I've definitely written about this before and how much it drives me nuts the way people treat narrative foils in this story in general as Goofus and Gallant style duos, but this is a specific one. I think Jin Guangyao is an example of a story that runs alongside Wei Wuxian's, but ends in a different place, and I think the story isn't saying that he ends in that place because of something inherently worse about Jin Guangyao, but because of the way his circumstances happen to diverge from Wei Wuxian's in specific key ways. In some ways his ending is even a near beat-for-beat rewrite of Wei Wuxian's death, and Wei Wuxian receives the grace of a second life not because of any inherent merit, but actually because of his bad reputation. I think this goes for Xue Yang, too, actually.

I absolutely know I'm forgetting things and there are probably things back in my bitchy opinions tag that I could dig out, but here's at least a few that came to mind.

[mxtxfanatic]

I'm not very active online socially, so I find your takes on the whole JC stans situation very helpful and interesting. It does a lot to contextualize what I see reading a lot of fanfiction, wherein I've found much MDZS fanfiction to be very divorced from the reality of the source material, both due to cultural insensitivity towards the Chinese source material, the CQL problem, and of course the ubiquitous JC apologia. I've been in equally, if not more, contentious fandoms before (the Sherlock fandom comes to mind) but, if I can be frank, to me the difference between those experiences and now is that MDZS is an actually good book! I feel like a lot of the fandom inclinations toward sanding down conflicts or exacerbating them, inventing personalities for background characters, turning all the characters into dolls and the setting into your dollhouse (which no one else may touch!) were codified for the current userbase in Superwholock, whether people realize or not. Those fandom instincts were helpful when working with source material that was shallow, inconsistent, and from the english-speaking world, but it did not equip fandom to deal with a book from a foreign culture that didn't need "fixing" for lack of a better term. It also reminds me a lot of early otaku culture in the USA, with the botched translations, weird cultural takes, and... odd characterization in fanfiction (why does Naruto need a harem???). Which, one may hope, could indicate that things will get better over time. That's just my spaghetti thrown at the wall, though.

I think it's a combination of both the quality of the book (Western fandoms are unused to having source materials with such tight storytelling where they don't have to fill in major parts of the plot with their own imaginations) and racism (Western fandoms feeling so entitled to Asian works while also not respecting their creators enough to even pretend to attempt to understand what the creators are trying to say, instead, choosing to fall back onto the orientalist "those Asians are just an enigma" stereotypes to justify superimposing their own ideas onto the text and calling it "basically the same thing").

I also believe that the sheer volume of unchallenging art that the Western world mass-produces, paired with disdain towards literary pursuits like critique and analysis, has led to a generation of "fans" who believe that the only "right" way to engage in your favorite media is to turn your brain off. "If you joined fandom to share quotes from the book and not just follow the 'incorrect-quotes-blog' and laugh at out-of-context excerpts, then what's your problem???" seems to be the consensus nowadays.

Here's to hoping one day people get over themselves and realize that just because their usual interests are careless drivel written to make money doesn't mean that everyone is writing trash stories they could care less about outside of how much money it makes them. Mxtx writes amazing stories, but you don't actually care about the story like you claim you do if everything you "love" about it can be easily just summarized in a recycled fandom trope meme.