#joanna lannister is a narcissistic mother

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Have you ever wondered?

Why Tywin Lannister who,

respects his mother, Jeyne Marbrand,

defended his sister, Genna Lannister,

and even gives her enough leeway to be most of her time at the Rock,

and to say whatever she likes, 

adores and respects his wife, Joanna Lannister,

and gives her all the reins of his life, 

NOT being kind and respectful to his own flesh and blood, the daughter of his own making, Cersei Lannister,

even long before she grows up?

Something doesn't add-up!

[navree]

Just for fun: if Tywin was in Otto's place for the Dance but with Alicent as his daughter instead of Cersei, how do you think it would have played out?

I think a lot of pre-Dance stuff would play out largely the same, given that there are similarities between Otto and Tywin and how their lives played out and what they wanted. But there's a key difference between them: Otto's very much focused on personal advancement, placing Alicent as an option for queen and Aegon in the line of succession for king is all about how that can help him get as much power as he wants (cuz Second Son Complex I guess), while Tywin is all about family advancement. He has his personal cares and his personal wants, yes, but Tywin's primary focus is on advancing the Lannister name, the Lannister glory, the Lannister agenda. So while yes, Tywin would likely also want Alicent to be made queen, and would want to do whatever possible to make that happen (much like how he was all about getting a grieving Robert to marry Cersei without care to the fact that Robert was the worst man living), it would be all about family for him, about the advancement of the House.

An interesting thing of note is that Tywin is...I don't want to say less manipulative than Otto, but less personally conniving than him. Think about it: we see Tywin primarily through Tyrion's eyes, given that Jaime only gets one or two scenes with Tywin while he's still living, and Cersei none as her POV chapters start when he's already dead. So we're seeing Tywin as a character through the eyes of someone who loathes him, and who he loathes in return, but the image we get is an interesting one. Tywin isn't as overtly hostile in the books as he is in the show, and while he's clearly contemptuous of Tyrion and hates him, he is, in a strange way, able to recognize the virtues Tyrion has, and is able to be honest and frank with him. I mean Hell, Tywin admits to Tyrion, in detail, exactly what his culpability is in Elia's death (rip Elia, every single corner of this fandom does you dirty in so many different ways, I will treat you better Queen). And that's with a kid he hates.

So with a kid like Alicent, someone who's less of a letdown than Jaime, less of a constant source of irritation than Cersei, and less personally despised than Tyrion, Tywin would likely be as close to Alicent as he can be with a child of his. I mean, he's a clear narcissist and misogynist and kind of a shitty person even, but still the best character, and while he might be less openly affectionate than Otto is, we know that Tywin could form personal relationships with deep ties for him, like his love for Joanna and his affection for Kevan (and if I think about Tywin and Kevan for too long I do cry), so he and Alicent likely would be on good enough terms to be in lockstep with each other during the Dance.

How Tywin would play out during the Dance, in Otto's place, is a bit hard to game out, because the show hasn't gotten there yet and we don't know how they're going to play out certain events, but I'll theorize nonetheless while trying to keep within the events in the Fire&Blood canon. For one, Tywin would be more militantly minded than Otto was, though still working just as hard on the diplomatic front, given the cunning genius that he is, so the Greens would get an additional military commander in the field to their advantage. And because Aegon is more inclined to listen to his mother (I'd say that currently he's less trigger happy than his book counterpart too, but that might not last because of What Happened To Aegon happened to me I'd go on a murder spree for a full decade), along with Tywin being a more intimidating force than Otto, Tywin likely wouldn't be dismissed as Hand of the King, leaving Aegon with a great advisor and Tywin with a king who will listen to him and a daughter-queen who will back him up.

Ending it can go one of three ways. Either a) Tywin, as an able military commander himself, goes into the field and is killed in battle, though likely at great cost to the Blacks, b) Tywin is still in King's Landing when Rhaenyra takes over and, like Otto, is beheaded for treason or c) Greens win. If Tywin doesn't die, then he would likely help the Greens emerge victorious. We'd see marriage alliances like we do with the Tyrell marriage and the Martell marriages (given that Jahaera and Maelor can be betrothed though I don't imagine Jahaera getting married in anything but name given that "eight going on four" characterization, and he definitely would take better care keeping them safe, and Daeron's of marriageable age, and I've decided to live in a fantasy world where this means Aemond also lives and Alys gets to be Lady of Harrenhal somehow and Tywin is magically cool with this because that means they get the loyalty of Harrenhal and a great grandson as the future Lord of Harrenhal), back alley deals like with the Red Wedding with sweeteners to get wavering supporters of Rhaenyra's over to his side, and his general ability to get shit done and make them go his way means that the Greens emerge victorious and the Blacks are likely to be roundly defeated, either through out and out death like Robb, or through such a trouncing there's no choice left but exile and disappearance, like they think with Stannis.

I think we should picture that for a minute. Tywin victorious after the Dance, him at the helm of his kingdom with his daughter ready to aid in whatever way she can, Aegon is king and hopefully healing from wounds, he and Helaena start to heal and focus on raising Jahaera and Maelor, Aemond's there with his wife, Lady Alys of Harrenhal and their son, Daeron off doing whatever he does (likely after being fostered at Casterly Rock/Lannisport instead of Oldtown), Criston’s watching over them all in peak guardian stance, alliances strong, marriage pacts brokered, kingdoms being restored, Hell I'll even throw in Aegon the Younger as a nicely kept hostage for good behavior with a betrothal to Daenaera Velaryon in the future, cuz this is my happy ending with Tywin as de-facto god emperor of the world and I want it.

[bidonica]

Are jaime and Cersei both the golden child? And Tyrion the scapegoat. Or is jaime the golden child, Tyrion the scape goat and Cersei the lost child? As in the roles of children with a narcissist

Ok but: is Tywin a narcissist? I don’t think the definition applies to him. Granted, I’m not a psychiatrist (and most sources regarding narcissistic parents available online seem to be anecdotal or from dubious pop psychology sites), so my assessment is as valid as anyone else’s, but I don’t think that’s Tywin’s specific deal. He’s abusive and emotionally withdrawn, but his self importance is Lannister self importance (and by extension, all the highborn characters have a bit of that; it’s literally baked in the social system, that some people are better by others *by birth*), he doesn’t love bomb, doesn’t play the victim when things don’t go his way, he’s ambitious but in a realistic way, not in a delusions of grandeur way.

Now, it’s inevitable that a contemporary author like Martin has assimilated some pop psychology along the way, and generally speaking, I believe we all understand the psychological impact of familial relationships differently than people from the pre modern era asoiaf mostly draws from. Parents loving or not loving their children, the things those children do to gain that love and approval, is kind of a big theme in asoiaf; and it’s because us 20th and 21st century people have assimilated the notion that the relationship with your family is crucial for your development as a person, but Martin is also good at writing characters that can’t really conceptualize that in-universe. They feel the same aches that they would in a contemporary setting, but they mostly trace them back to things like being unable to fulfill their duty within the family (whatever that duty is supposed to be), or feeling robbed of their birthright, etc. And then there’s things they simply don’t expect to happen, like most highborn people wouldn’t feel deprived of love and attention for having spent more time with wetnurses and septas and maesters as children than they did with their own parents (but they probably would now, and that’s why we have so many seasons of The Crown).

For example, take this quote from the wikipedia page for Narcissistic Parent: “narcissistic parents may speak of "carrying the torch", maintaining the family image, or making the mother or father proud”. This is something that Tywin does, and he is… right? Because in the world they live in, this stuff matters. He takes it to extremes, because he is an asshole, but while one could argue that all narcissists are assholes, not all assholes are narcissists.

But even assuming we could apply the golden child vs scapegoat roles to the Lannister children… I don’t think any of them fit so neatly into those boxes. Even Jaime and Cersei, who live most of their life getting Tywin’s apparent approval (especially in comparison to Tyrion) seem to perceive Tywin as more like a distant god that needs to be appeased rather than as someone they get to be an extension of. Tyrion is definitely a scapegoat in the grand scheme of things, but it’s not out of nowhere - his birth coincided with the death of Joanna, a stabilizing force in the family, and by most of the accounts we get genuinely loved by Tywin (not that that stopped him from having a secret passage to a brothel built for him. Anyway); he’s also disabled in a society that sees outward deformity as a sign of moral failure. But Tyrion is also a Lannister, which in Tywin’s worldview (which is Westeros’ worldview amped to 11) still puts him a step above most people in spite of the personal disdain he has for him, so he also bestows some pretty big responsibility on Tyrion such as subbing for him as Hand or being master of coin. I guess you can squeeze these dynamics into the “a narcissist and his children” boxes, but in my opinion that would require overlooking quite a bit of nuance in these characters’ personalities and history, as well as the cultural context Martin has placed them in.

[sayruq]

I havrn't read the books but what was the underlying reason for Jaime bring in love with Cersei? I know from word of mouth that Cersei likes things that are an extension of herself because she was born and raised to be a narcissist (Tywin's A+ parenting). But what is Jaimes excuse? Or is he a narcissist too?

he is also a narcissist and that's because of the toxic environment they were raised in. tywin made his children believe that as lannisters they are greater than anyone else and this justifies anything that they do from murdering children to drowning people alive to apparently incest. so you have 2 kids, one of whom realises much earlier than other girls how she is viewed by society and by misogynistic father, and another who has the future with the enormous responsibility of following tywin's footsteps. of course they started believing they were one soul in one body and of course they started doing things like kissing games (i'm assuming because that's what catelyn and lysa were doing with littlefinger at this age range) with each other instead of other kids and it escalated from there.

when joanna found out, she separated them to a ridiculous extend. one child was in one side of casterly rock and the other all the way to the opposite end and she put a guard outside of cersei's room. you don't have to be a genius to realise that this would quite shocking and maybe traumatic even to kids with normal relationships because cersei and jaime spent a lot of time together when they're not at their studies. i think at that point they were still sleeping in the same bed too.

it doesn't sound like joanna bothered to explain to them what they were doing was wrong, she just used their (abusive) father as a threat to curb that behaviour. then to compound this, joanna died while the twins were separated and tywin wasn't exactly the kind of father to help his children grieve. instead, he spent more time blaming tyrion for being born and wallowing in his own grief. how did the children cope?

When I commented that you seemed a poor sort of monster, your sister said, 'He killed my mother,' and twisted your little cock so hard I thought she was like to pull it off. You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' that Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter,' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon. He shouldn't even have lived this long.'"

poorly to put it lightly. so, without their father to comfort them, it's only natural that the twins turned to each other. the only problem that they no longer had a normal relationship and the only thing their separation enforced was that they needed to be secretive. for a long while cersei thought she was going to marry rhaegar so i don't think she saw the relationship as THE romantic relationship of her life. plus she was like 10 or 11 lol. when she heard the prophecy and when the betrothal to rhaegar was dashed (which would be humiliating to cersei on account of narcissistic beliefs her father passed down), i'm assuming that's when the twins started experimenting sexually (or that's when they started going further).

jaime was sent off to be a squire and cersei followed tywin to king's landing so they had periods of separation but really didn't do anything because

they weren't really made to understand why their relationship was so dysfunctional

it had become a core part of their identity- you take lannister narcissism, add general closeness between twins who are significantly older than their younger sibling, and a sexual relationship and you have the mess that is cersei and jaime

tywin didn't arrange a betrothal for cersei or jaime, though jaime came close to being betrothed to lysa so this was really the only romantic/sexual relationship the two of them had experienced

we know what happens from here. due to tywin's delusions and the prophecy, cersei still thought she would become rhaegar's queen so she convinces jaime to join the kingsguard, no doubt influenced by aerys' continued downward spiral (i wonder how many people cersei watched him burn). of course this backfired immediately when tywin resigned. cersei did end up becoming queen, to a man who abused her, and after that, she and jaime became inseparable again.

i feel like i've been talking about cersei too much here (i'm always trying to explain her perspective because people have such a negative reading of everything that she does). so jaime becomes a squire but there are no girls who interest him. he has aspirations of becoming a great and fearsome knight like the men he admired and that is where the majority of his energy goes. when he goes to riverrun to meet lysa, she's not exactly his type, too timid compared to her sister and even catelyn couldn't hold a candle to brynden tully. if cersei's time was pre-occupied with becoming queen, jaime's was becoming a legendary knight. joining the kingsguard would place him side by side with the most notable living knights alive. jaime wasn't just doing what cersei wanted and he wasn't escaping the burden of becoming tywin's heir, he was going to stand beside great men and become one himself. this must have felt like the best idea cersei ever came up with.

it was the worst thing that ever happened to jaime. not only was cersei going back to casterly rock, he was trapped alone with a monster. sure there were moments like this

"I earned my knighthood. Nothing was given to me. I won a tourney mêlée at thirteen, when I was yet a squire. At fifteen, I rode with Ser Arthur Dayne against the Kingswood Brotherhood, and he knighted me on the battlefield.

moments he had looked forward to but that was ruined by aerys and his madness and by jaime's heroes for refusing to do anything about it

It was that white cloak that soiled me, not the other way around.

remember how after joanna died, the twins turned to each other for comfort, that happened again. i genuinely think the relationship was much different after jaime's time as aerys' kingsguard and cersei's wedding night compared to before that. it was no longer just them having sex, they were now having children and viewing each other quasi spouses (in secret of course). they spent a lot of time together as they did as children, sneaking off to have sex, jaime staying close while cersei gave birth to their kids, cersei trying to tell jaime boring political stuff, etc. i wouldn't be surprised if this is when jaime started fantasising about them running off and getting married though it could be earlier (i'm running on little sleep rn so the details are fuzzy).

i mentioned them spending a lot of time together again like they did as children and i think this is tied to jaime and cersei's arrested development. jaime is stuck mentally at 15-17 and cersei is stuck at 17/18 (when she married robert). hence them acting like teenagers having a secret relationship instead of two adults doing something incredibly risky that could (and will) lead to their deaths.

so there you have it.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Golds and Glisters;

Chapter 3: The First Crack in The Levee

Tyrion, –the son Tywin abhors and feels guilty about the most,– kills his father without giving him the courtesy of leaving the world gracefully.

Now Lord Tywin Lannister has been given a second chance to get back unto the past and to right his wrongs, but this is not the chance he craves for all that glisters is not gold. Warn:Won't be a Tyrion! Sorry!

Chapter 3: The First Crack in The Levee

Lord Lannister faces one emotional challenge that he had not predicted if he got the chance to see Joanna would he struggle with.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Golds and Glisters;

Chapter 2: The Sliver Broken Moon

Tyrion, –the son Tywin abhors and feels guilty about the most,– kills his father without giving him the courtesy of leaving the world gracefully.

Now Lord Tywin Lannister has been given a second chance to get back unto the past and to right his wrongs, but this is not the chance he craves for all that glisters is not gold. Warn:Won't be a Tyrion!

Chapter 2: The Sliver Broken Moon

Tywin gets out of his bedchamber at the Tower of Hands for the fear of hallucinating and he encounters with the Silver Broken Moon of his past memories.

[teapartywithmadhatter]

Golds and Glisters Covers:

Which one is better?