#kotlc crit

[ahoyimlosingmymind]

how is Keefe airing out Sophie's emotions somehow less invasive than telepathy? (keep in mind- i haven't read the books in a fatty minute)

I get he can feel her emotions without having physical contact. but why does bro announce them to the room? why does he throw them back in her face whenever she's like "hey I'd really rather not talk about it."

like is their connection really that deep or is Keefe just overly aware and invasive... ? people be like "he always knows what she's feeling!" like no shit??? she doesn't have to tell him? this isn't built on trust??

she often ends up telling him things bc he's like "I already know. I can feel ur emotions remember? and they're heavy ones, so you need to talk to someone (me)"

he never gets any criticism for this.

but if Fitz wants to ask and be a bit interrogative about her thoughts and feelings *without reading her mind* he's overstepping boundaries and should just take no for an answer? he doesn't know how she feels all the time, that's why he has to ask more directly than Keefe.

how does this reasoning not apply to both? am I missing something?

[weaponizedducks]

pissed that no one is letting keefe take accountability for his actions?? he has tried time and time again to apologise and take accountability for his questionable actions and nobody lets him actually do it??

that one scene in i think nightfall or lodestar when he returns and tries to apologise to everyone and sophie's like 'you don't have to' ummmm yes?? yes he does???? he absolutely does??? that was a shitty thing he did no matter why he did it.

how do you expect him to heal and get better if no one lets him acknowledge his mistakes? covering them up and dismissing the things he's done, excusing them with his motivation isn't going to help anything. i get why he did it, but it was still wrong.

he is a flawed character LET HIM BE FLAWED. HIS ACTIONS HAVE CAUSED ISSUES THAT HAVE NOT BEEN RESOLVED. BRUSHING OVER THEM ISN'T RESOLVING THEM. no fucking wonder keefe is depressed and is developing more mental health issues than he already has.

he knows he's flawed and has done bad things but he can't get past them and heal because everyone is insisting his actions were not bad. i

n his mind, people are seeing him, loving him for something that he isn't. he thinks they don't see the real him, and how fucked up he is, and maybe he's right. because they (sophie) have never held him accountable and never really given him consequences, they therefore can't properly forgive him. they can't forgive him for something they don't think he's done- and if they can't forgive him keefe can't forgive himself and will continue to hold himself accountable and hate himself because no one has told him not to. dismissing them does not equal accepting them. they can forgive keefe without forgiving his actions, and they need to, or keefe is going to continue to spiral until it's too late

[twilled-auryn]

you know what I enjoy? the kotlc fandom's progression from

"AAAAAH CHAPTER 42 OMG"

to

"Yeah I'm glad it's finally canon to it was cute not the best though"

to

"bit controversial but chapter 42 wasn't my favorite"

to

"I did NOT just read thousands of pages following these two awkward little beans just for them to middle school fanfic it randomly in the forest"

to

*slams table* chapter 42 was so cringe. what in the actual wattpad. It was so bad

to

*extensive lists and paragraphs as to what could have done better and several people rallying and calling for a rewrite*

I love you guys.

if you support chapter 42 I think that's great and I'm glad you enjoyed it :)

[cogaytes]

The Song Twins & Keepblr Characterization

@arson-anarchy-death @camelspit Sorry for my lateness!

Avi Cogaytes Professor Spit Roisin's Reading Rumble #3 16 July 2023

The Song twins are fan-favorite characters in the online fandom for Keeper of the Lost Cities, a middle grade fantasy book series by Shannon Messenger, present in roughly 30% of fanfictions posted on Archive of Our Own and popular on blogging website Tumblr. However, their characters are often misinterpreted by the fandom due to a combination of racial stereotypes and sometimes a lack of nuance. Despite the popularity of certain portrayals of the Song twins, several popular ways of seeing them actually have little to not basis in canon.

In Keepblr, Tam is often seen as "emo" and someone who represses his true feelings. Multiple posts have described him as "bottling up" his emotions. However, Tam is explicitly angry from the very first time we see him on the page (not counting the shadow-whispering). All of the words used to describe him and his speech are harsh: "demanded," "spat," "defiant stare." Clearly, he isn't trying to repress or bottle up this anger, since it influences how he speaks and interacts with the others. He also visibly expresses his emotions several times during that conversation; he "blinked several times" and his "jaw fell open" when Mr. Forkle offered them a place to stay, in addition to blushing when Keefe brings up the Foster Fan Club (Neverseen). From very early on in his introduction, it becomes clear that he is not actually trying to hide his feelings, and in fact his reactions are often easy for Sophie to pick up on. When Keefe is revealed to be a traitor, Tam "wiped tears from his silvery eyes" (Neverseen); he is clearly unafraid to display emotions and not repressed the way the fandom seems to see him. This also relates to him being seen as "emo"; people described as emo tend to hide their emotions and act more stoic. He's been labeled as a "dramatic emo" in one post, and is called that often by other posts in general. In canon, however, he's sensitive and expressive, a good friend who comforts Keefe after he leaves by reminding him that he isn't worthless (Nightfall), and does not try to hide his emotions or reactions in his facial expressions. This is not the other extrapolation about Tam often taken from canon.

Another popular headcanon of Tam is that he is queer and/or transmasculine. There are numerous posts dedicated to this headcanon, one in particular saying that Tam "[screams] gay" and the poster "can't see [him] liking women." They say that Tam having a crush on Keefe is "basically canon at this point," when there is actually zero canonical basis for this; other than banter they have no romantic subtext at all. He is also not shown to have any bodily dysmorphia or discomfort with masculinity or femininity that might hint to a transgender identity. Neither of these headcanons have basis in the text, no matter how popular they are. Rather than canon, these headcanons are likely based in racial stereotypes; elaboration about how this opinion may have come about can be found here. Tam's twin also undergoes similar fandom treatment, where she is portrayed as soft and sweet (as Asian women often are) rather than dimensional the way she is in canon.

Linh is seen as "fluffy" and has no backbone. In fanon, she's described as: "a push over," so sweet she's "a toothache of diabetes," "feminine and small and controllable," "quiet and reserved" "compassionate," a "smile through the trauma character." But in canon, she's not afraid to make waves or be defiant; she destroys Ravagog in a flood (Neverseen) and considers herself grateful for the power that allowed her to do that (Lodestar), showing her autonomy. She's defiant to her parents, telling them "Respect has to be earned" (Lodestar) and turning her back on them. She argues with her brother instead of burying her feelings of discomfort with his behavior (Stellarlune). She's willing to share about her vulnerabilities as well, telling Sophie "I've often wondered if I have more power than I should" (Lodestar). All of this in canon gives her significantly more dimension than the fluffy, stoic character she's described as in fanon.

As stated before, these portrayals are likely due to typecasting rather than actual canon. Asian men are often seen as more feminine and therefore queer or trans; they are usually stereotyped as either very "soft" or repressed about their emotions. This stereotype may have contributed to how widespread this opinion became despite the way Tam clearly emotes in canon. Asian women are also viewed as sweet, sensitive, and uncomplicated in media, while bottling up their emotions for others' convenience; unlike that stereotype, Linh has autonomy and is willing to both express herself and be defiant. Despite this, however, portrayals like the ones cited above remain unfortunately common. Members of Keepblr, therefore, should examine their perceptions of the Song twins to ensure that their headcanons have a canonical, rather than stereotypical basis.

[sillyguy-supreme]

sometimes i reread the series and it becomes clear that shannon did not hire a sensitivity reader

[faggot-friday]

I think the fanon characters are better than the canon ones simply because a lot of them are so problematic and shit

I could use Fitz as an example, but I'm not, because Fitz is trying to change, and also his anger is justified (so fuck you, Keepertok, for saying otherwise).

Keefe is a prime example, because he's portrayed as a better character than he is (and Keepertok thinks he's the Ultimate Supreme, as well). In canon, he's deliberately flirting with Sophie even when she's in a relationship, and it's clear she's uncomfortable with things like that. What the fuck, my dude. And his motivation for everything he does (running away, in both cases), is Sophie. Bestie why. Do you not have a life outside some girl you met a year ago? You have friends, are they not important enough? Of course not, because you and Fitz fell out over Sophie. I forgot. So fanon decided to take Sophie out of the picture, just for a little while, and ask, what would his life be like without her? And then we built on his friendships and other relationships.

And Sophie's a good one too, because she's supposed to be this wonderful perfect character who would sacrifice herself for her friends, and she's still actually kinda selfish. Like, I'm glad she has flaws, but it's a little out of hand. And fanon gives her other flaws, but they take away her Supreme Jealousy, and they give her more of a chance. They let her have crushes other than Fitz, they let her realise that not everything is about her, and that's great! Especially since it's something I'm never gonna see in canon.

And Fintan. Don't even get me fucking started on Fintan. Canon Fintan seems to have no motivation other than "overthrow the council and give pyrokinetics a better life", which is great, but the latter is explored a lot less. He's shown to be someone without anything worth saving. Fanon Fintan has emotions, Fanon Fintan is a better villain, Fanon Fintan wears a stripper uniform and hooked up with Shakespeare.

This post makes no fucking sense. Send

[moonlarked]

The more that I think about it, the more that Tong -> Song doesn’t make any sense.

Like. Do Tong and Song rhyme in the enlightened language? Does “song” mean the same thing in both the enlightened language and English? Does that mean that the last name “Tong” has the same origins in the lost cities and the forbidden cities? Or do they sound completely different? Are all of the characters’ names different in the EL and English? But wait… that would mean the pun would somehow, coincidentally, be able to hold between both worlds and mean the same thing…

[bookwyrminspiration]

re: your tags on a recent answer sayingabout reading stellarlune that stellarlune is only your second hated bc legacy is worse

i haven't read legacy in a hot minute so *chinhands* wanna tell me more?

i don't remember anything important from it except the whole Alvar thing (which, honestly, you're telling me the Neverseen had a method to completely wipe a guy's brain only to perfectly restore it with a certain trigger, and nobody talked about it again??) And I somewhat remember the trolls? great-aunt Luzia Vacker put a troll farm on her property for some reason i don't remember, then for some reason moved away from it and left it on the property out of her control? Wack

oh and i do remember being wildly annoyed by the ending, where sophie spends like twelve books up to this point vocally refuting the matchmaking system and not wanting to do it, but then she turns around and does it after all?? (and okay, i can admit that she probably did it bc she really loves fitz and like, if he'll only accept her if the matchmakers allowed it, then perhaps through the power of love it'll work out for her? but it doesn't, so she and fitz have to make hard decisions about their lives.) So yeah actually give me your matchmaking/legacy ending thoughts too!

I'd love to! However, you did just describe the plot of Flashback, not Legacy, so I'll try to cover both of them briefly

Flashback I'm mostly neutral on--I do enjoy the sophitz before Shannon started their forced crash (in Legacy, part of the reason I dislike it), and exploring Tam's potential with shadowflux is lovely since I love him. Few clarifications: Luzia made a secret alliance with the trolls to hide their hive, since it's their biggest vulnerability; she moved away because she needed more space. Apparently during that time, Luzia helped with experiments on them--but the hive left there was closed on their side, so Luzia wasn't part of the most recent batch; my guess is she thought it was inactive and abandoned, otherwise she wouldn't let the new Vackers live there

But yes, I was incredibly underwhelmed by its ending. Coming out of books where the cliffhanger is her entire family's been kidnapped, Alvar's lost his memories, her being ineligible for a pairing system I don't care about as the final reveal is like...ok. and? but, I do acknowledge this is entirely biased by my aromanticism and relationship anarchy. I simply don't give a shit. sophie, however, does. so I understand why from her pov that's a massive bombshell, and very stressful. i'm just not the audience for that reveal

unfortunately for me, that ending sets up a major part of the next book, which is why Legacy is my least favorite. I want to be very upfront and say my least favorite. this is my ranking based on my personal interests and enjoyment, it's absolutely fine if you (general) like Legacy. this is incredibly biased and opinionated

OKAY, so. I simply cannot get myself to care about Sophie's relationship woes, and they're not even written true to the characters! That thing I said about a forced crash? It's like as soon as they got together, Shannon decided the loss of hidden crush drama was too much, and she immediately sabotaged them to make up for it. This post gives a good example, adding a fake time crunch to make it seem more important and blaming Fitz. And the thing about Fitz being like "you wouldn't want to not find your parents, right?" when one of the first trust exercises they did together she told him directly she didn't want to because she thought she'd hate them. And they didn't brush past it! They talked about it a little! But of course now he's conveniently forgotten

If it was compelling, I could accept their demise. But it's not! It feels like drama for drama's sake, and it's just frustrating to read. With the seven books we spent building up to them, imploding everything about them in one book without any pay off is like...why. Just why. and it comprises SO MUCH of the story! Sophie's always thinking about it, prioritizing it, worrying about it, and I! am not here for that. Which is entirely a personal preference thing. i've been in a qpr for years, relationship anarchy is my normal, and it's just so...exhausting? reading her thoughts about how her life is going to be ruined and everyone's going to hate her. first of all, that's clearly an overreaction and I'm not believing this tension for a second. second, boo fucking hoo. you're atypical. join the club and stop moaning about how it sucks to be us. she's on a learning/acceptance curve, I know, but that doesn't make it fun to hear that kind of rhetoric--especially since I'm fairly certain Shannon wrote this without that in mind at all

I am aware I'm being mean to Sophie. I can logically understand all her beliefs and actions, and I know they're suited to her, her background, her values, and where she is in life right now. on a technical level, I get it. that doesn't mean emotionally I enjoy it, even if there's a reason to it all. it's simply a part of the story I, as an aromantic person, dislike. and that is my experience and opinion, I am in no way speaking for others.

so to summarize: I hate how the characters were handles and how sophie thinks of matchmaking in Legacy, and those things were a significant portion of the book, so I don't like it in general. personally. my very biased and emotionally driven opinion :)

[astrababyy]

I get why Sophie erased her family’s minds, but there’s just something so grating abt the fact that the Black Swan erasing some of her memories is treated like a big deal and she gets so angry about that, but then literally wiping her family’s existence off the face of the Earth and redoing their entire lives with false memories isn’t once brought up as problematic. Like no one even blinks about her doing that, and Sophie doesn’t see how that’s really screwed up. Even Amy doesn’t bring it up, or even care, when she realizes the truth.

[the-way-astray]

take what i'm about to say with a truckload of salt because i do not like sokeefe or keefe but

i think one of the reasons why so many sokeefe fans didn't like the sokeefe kiss is because it was too perfect. throughout the book there had been this emphasis on the imperfection of keefe and sophie's dynamic (keefe drawing sophie slouching, keefe sitting all sprawled across the grass with all his supplies everywhere, etc.). especially put next to the not-so-subtle comparison to fitz's idealized version of sophie (which in my opinion was executed atrociously, but that's clearly what shannon was going for), keefe and sophie's dynamic is supposed to be chill, laid-back, and messy.

so i think it was really disappointing for a lot of sokeefe fans when their kiss was . . . strangely idealistic? perfect, even? they go to the perfect romantic spot and have the perfect kiss. it's not messy, instead it flows so smoothly, like any other ya romantic scene since the beginning of ever. you could copy-paste just about any random ya couple from any fantasy series into this scene and it wouldn't feel weird. there's nothing specifically sokeefe about this scene, nothing that makes it feel unique to them as a couple. it just feels like shannon wrote a generic ya confession scene and then changed the names to "sophie" and "keefe". i think sokeefe fans wanted that unique sokeefe flavor, something to make it feel like it was a sokeefe confession scene instead of just some random ya confession scene. and i don't think shannon delivered.

[ahoyimlosingmymind]

never getting over Sophie just letting Alvar go in that tower scene in Legacy right before the fitzphie break up. (Keefe might have been there too- i don't remember- which makes it a million times worse.)

like in what world was that her choice to make? Idc if the guy looked like death- that's not her son, or her brother, and the entire decision was just beyond stupid. ??? that's a known terrorist, who might have taken part in torturing you and Dex in book one?? that's your boyfriend's brother?? like you cannot be serious.

sure, Alvar might have crawled away to die, but to not tell his parents? to not give his family some closure? a body to bury??

that alone is a bigger reason for Fitz to break up with her than matchmaking by a landslide.

[weaponizedducks]

i am SO pissed abt the whole 'sophie letting alvar go' thing. that had the potential to be such a good arc for her character and fitz's, but shannon made it seem like she was in the right. she wasn't. that was not her choice to make.

sophie is a character that has stayed relatively the same throughout the series. she is in desperate need of an arc and this event could have triggered it. i understand why she did it but i'm annoyed that shannon made it seem like fitz was in the wrong for being angry about it.

shannon tries to create a 3D character with 'flaws' but none of her flaws seem to impact the overarching plot at all. shannon has her favourites (keefe and sophie) and she is afraid of ever putting them in the wrong.

keefe has almost never been held accountable for his admittedly flawed actions- and for him to be a complex and deep character like shannon so clearly wants him to be he needs to have flaws. his actions cannot be excused by his love for sophie. that is a (bad) explanation not an excuse.

shannon needs to stop using characters like fitz and stina as her own personal punching bag and start adding more nuances to her main characters.

my problem with the series is that shannon has created tropes and figureheads instead of realistic human beings, and when she does occasionally create real characters the narrative faults them for it. they are always in the wrong for understandable and pretty much right reactions to things that are wrong. i love sophie and keefe, dont get me wrong, but they are too focused on. by focusing only on sophie and keefe, she has rid them of their flaws and made them pretty boring, making her 'hated' characters far more interesting by comparison. let them make the mistakes. let there be consequences. let sophie and keefe be messy and imperfect and flawed. please please please shannon i am begging you give your characters some actual character

[everliving-everblaze]

oki doki i read the excerpt. thoughts::

where is fitz. my baby boy. my king. he is gonna be so sad. actually I know where he is, he's warning his family that sophie burned down the warehouse. bring him back though please I am starving

dadwin is EVERYTHING to me. the only character who truly can do no wrong. yes king take out ro

why does everyone keep saying that Keefe knows what he's doing this time? he does NOT please stop giving braincells to the child he doesn't deserve them (affectionate)

"Could she fix Keefe?" no she can definitely make him worse though

Sophie not even HESITATING when Ro suggested Keefe could make Lady Gisela jump off a building. girlboss are u ok

Dex :(( i'm so sorry. i love you. i'm sorry. Ro if you don't stop pressuring him i will destroy you

lord cassius can choke

in conclusion, I think Keefe is going to be hit by a car

[when-wax-wings-melt]

@camelspit​ i did the thing!! here is my stina presentation teacher <3 (unannotated versions of annotated slides under the cut)

[wanderingwolpertinger]

finished Six of Crows yesterday (yes I skipped shadow and bone entirely the opening exposition was annoying me buuuut I'll go back later. Blame my friend she said I should start with SoC) and I haven't started Crooked Kingdom (no spoilers please!) however I wanted to dump my thoughts for a bit (I probably ended up being overly critical so if this is your fav series maybe scroll by lol)

-the characters were the highlight of the story for me, super well executed banter. Tie between Kaz and Matthias for fav POV. (Kaz's backstory was especially well done, the way it influenced his actions throughout SoC was very natural)

-worldbuilding/lore was pretty easy to follow even though I did not read S&B or watch the show. magic system is pretty cool, excited to see it fleshed out in S&B

-not sure how I feel about how ship-happy this series is (maybe the author was trying to outrun ship war potential idk). possibly makes more sense when viewed as a series? (will have to update my opinion later) but overall having every main pov character paired off somewhat sappily by the end of book one was ehhh? I'm not opposed to romantic subplots but I felt they may have held too much influence in the main plot here.

-hrrmmm love me some GrimDark (not) (ok not when it's not done very impactfully imo) (mmmm let's not explore the ethics of casually taking lives for more than 0.5 seconds) (yes it's a fantasy book but still) (particularly Jesper's pov was ... odd) (he seemed to have issues with his actions but also didn't?) (maybe it will make more sense upon reread)

-Standard Heist Plot (no notes) (yes to explosives)

-ok back to the crit. one of the reviews in the front of my copy compared SoC to ASOIAF (haven't read it but I know enough to verify) and like yes actually it really did feel somewhat like aggressively PG-13 Game of Thrones. (I dunno this is more of a personal gripe with authors feeling the need to inject the sexual exploitation of women into their fantasy novels in order to be more Realistic) (especially when it's minors) (bleh)

-idk a lot of the side worldbuilding choices felt like something an edgy 14 year old would choose because they were Dark ™️

-however props for character design, the appearance/physicality of each of the Crows was wonderfully distinct

-not in loooove with the ending. It sets up book two nicely yes but kinda gave me KOTLC cliffhanger flashbacks

-sort of feels like this book is a sanitized adult fantasy novel with de-aged protagonists (could be being unfair here) and a YA plot

-no actually the number of times Nina's breasts are mentioned is absurdly high, the heck was up with that

-so Matthias being a ex-witch hunter = bad (duh) cause he was going to send Grisha to their deaths. Ok makes sense. Now tell me why Kaz/Inej/Jesper killing somewhat indiscriminately is not really addressed in moral terms beyond "necessary"? (Actually ignore this one for now I would need to do a reread before I have full thoughts on this) (But there will be thoughts)

-overall, I had a good time reading this book. Yeah I had problems with it but some of that could honestly stem from the fact that I am not 15 anymore and have different taste in books. (ok ok also I am actively comparing this with Lockwood and Co and I feel that series took equally dark topics but explored them much more maturely) (and honestly also Mistborn. That series also had dark worldbuilding but didn't linger on what it didn't have to?)

[faggot-friday]

@ Shannon what was the point of having all the elves be so attractive other than to say that everyone with flaws such as acne or vitiligo or even brown fucking eyes are "ugly" because they're not? It's a bullshit thing to put in a children's book, especially