#legacy of the fire nation

[kibutsulove]

I feel as though we as a community gloss over that one young Azulon image way to much for it to be healthy

why are we ignoring this… why are we ignoring him… ?? why aren’t we sitting down and talking about it??

[wingsfreedom]

For some reason I just realized/noted another thing from Legacy of the Fire Nation book: the way Iroh speaks about Ozai in relation to both fire siblings. When he revealed that sometimes he sees Ozai in Zuko, he says so in a regrettable tone, about what could've been better and wished that was. Meanwhile, when he connected Ozai (and himself) to Azula, he only associated her to the traits he believed to be problematic and should be held accountable.

Furthermore, what he claimed to see in Zuko is surely his own view and opinion BUT what he sees in Azula is what he assumes how Ozai views her too. Iroh doesn't think that Ozai might liked Azula better because of her talent and intelligence but because of the "fury" or whatever that was.

He doesn't see or acknowledge the positive things about Azula and only assumed Ozai liked her better because she mirrors the worst part of himself.

P.S. the first full page here.

[sokkastyles]

As a whole, I don’t find “Legacy of the Fire Nation” to be particularly well-written, insightful, or in character, but I take my tidbits where I can. Moreover, I do have to comment on this because of the frequency that I’ve seen these particular quotes used as proof that Iroh hates, abuses, or neglects Azula, that he doesn’t see Azula as an abuse victim because he’s projecting Ozai onto her, or even that HE was the Azula in his relationship with Ozai, and didn’t see Ozai as being abused because of it, and that’s why he lacks sympathy for Azula.

And that just seems both wildly out of character and a willful misreading of what is actually being said here.

Here, Iroh shows a very strong awareness of the abuse that has run in his family, and where it comes from. Far from seeing Ozai’s behavior as isolated, he refers to it going back to Azulon and Sozin and also how Fire Nation militarism enabled that culture of violence and toxicitiy. This shows that he is aware that Azulon showed unfair favoritism. He talks of how as a young man, he excelled in the role of being Azulon’s prodigy and thought that it was his destiny to take the throne. He talks of initially seeing Ozai’s jealousy as merely that of a sibling rivalry, but realizing that it was something more as Ozai grew into the abusive person he was, shaped by both his own personal ambition and the same toxic culture that Iroh himself had to come to realize was wrong.

He also talks about how there are times where he thinks he could have done something more to help Ozai, which is a pretty natural reaction, and tragic. The way he talks about his growing awareness of what Ozai was, it makes it clear that this was a situation that escalated beyond his control, and his guilt over it sounds similar to the accounts of many people who live with abusers, especially those who they are very close to.

Which is one reason why I find it VERY hard to believe that he would just write off Azula or ignore her, but it also shows his awareness that sometimes you do have to make the choice to cut ties with an abusive person, no matter how painful that is, because he’s been there before. He’s had to make his own peace with the fact that his own father was a monster, even when he benefitted from Azulon’s favoritism. Which is something that Azula has yet to do because she can’t let go of that favoritism.

Iroh doesn’t blame Azula here, though. Even when he discusses Azula, he blames Ozai for not stopping it, Ozai for continuing the legacy of favoritism and toxicity. He compares his relationship with Ozai to Zuko’s and Azula’s not to say that Azula is irredeemable, but in a way that makes it clear that this is something painful for him, that he wishes things could be different. He doesn’t think that either Ozai or Azula were born evil, but he’s not going to make excuses for them, either.

I’ve seen some people point to this and say that just pointing out Ozai’s favoritism of Azula is ignoring that Azula was abused too or blaming her or not giving her credit that she deserves, which is both nonsense and comes across as trying to silence discussion of how Zuko was abused because “Azula was abused, too” or something, which isn’t a logical or ethical stance to take. We should be allowed to talk about how Ozai’s favoritism of Azula was unfair and abuse, because it was. We should be allowed to talk about how it harmed Zuko, because it did. It also harmed Azula, but neither this book, Iroh as a character, nor I am claiming that it didn’t, and talking about how Zuko was harmed does not mean Azula wasn’t, and the only reason that I can see that someone would interpret things that way is if you deny the role Azula herself played in Zuko’s abuse. I also feel like some people who talk about this want to talk about Azula as a victim of abuse but still want her to be the favored child, and you can’t have both. You can’t pretend that Azula deserved to be favored and act like you understand how Ozai’s abuse created that dynamic in the first place. That would be like Iroh saying he still wanted to be Fire Lord after talking about how his family’s toxicity is what put him on that track in the first place. It’s why Iroh refuses the mantle of Fire Lord at the end of the series and also why he doesn’t have any rose-colored glasses when it comes to Azula.

[queer-apocalypse]

This line from LotFN kills me because what the fuck do you have to do be known as the "scourge of the Fire Nation", which is already notoriously pretty ruthless and hostile by default? Invent super-colonialism? Kick a puppy down a flight of stairs on your first day?

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Why Iroh is not a Good Judge of Azula's Redeemability

One of the fiercest debates in Avatar fandom is whether or not to take Iroh’s words and actions towards Azula as proof of Azula irredeemability. 

For those who think that Azula is irredeemable point to stuff like, “She’s crazy and needs to go down,” or the fact that there was never any indication that he ever tried to reason with her, even when he tried reasoning with war criminals (the Rough Rhinos), someone who was literally going destroy a fundamental aspect of reality (Zhao), and someone who was attempting to rob him at knifepoint (Tycho), as proof that he knew that Azula was fundamentally broken, or that, after he returned from his wandering to the palace, he realized that Azula was too firmly indoctrinated for him, or anyone other than Azula herself, to save.

Meanwhile, those who think that Azula is redeemable point out that Iroh said, She’s crazy and needs to go down,” only after she had repeatedly tried to hunt him and Zuko down so she could bring them back to the Fire Nation for their treason, had attempted to kill Zuko with lightning, and had almost killed him with blue fire. Not to mention, Iroh had to dissuade Zuko from trying to show Azula compassion because, as long as she and Ozai where in power, there was no way they could convince her to change her path, and so to show her compassion, or attempt to reason with her, would end with him, Zuko, or the both of them dead or in chains.

And in regards to the comics, where he never visits her in the asylum to try and steer her down a better path now that she lost everything, including her power, and thus would be receptive to his teachings? Well, if Iroh was willing to retire to Ba Sing Se and leave the arduous task of reforming the Fire Nation after a hundred years of war and propaganda to his unprepared nephew, who he sees as a surrogate son, why would Iroh be inclined to try and help steer Azula down a better path? 

Especially when, as far as he knows, Azula is getting top-notch medical treatment for her mental illness(es)?

Not to mention, when Zuko was facing push back to take Azula on the search for Ursa, Iroh voiced his support for taking her, pointing out that it might help Azula find inner peace.

And besides, regardless of the above points, those who think Azula is redeemable point out that it would be highly hypocritical for Iroh deny the possibility of Azula reforming when it took Iroh suffering one of the harsh losses imaginable, the lost of a child, in combination with the White Lotus, who are made up of people victimized by Iroh’s actions, or inaction, as Crown Prince and as a general of the Fire Nation, for him to reform and redeem himself well into middle age.

Well, in my opinion, this debate is a moot one because the foundational assumption for both sides, that Iroh actually cared for Azula, at least at some point, is not actually true.

For the Legacy of the Fire Nation, which in-universe is a scrapbook Iroh wrote to share memories and mementos with Zuko, reveals that Iroh never gave up on Azula because he never gave her a chance in the first place, first, due to seeing her as an obstacle to Zuko getting Ozai's favor, and then, after his own redemption arc, an obstacle to Zuko becoming the savior of the Fire Nation that Iroh knew he could become.

In fact, he shows more sympathy and regret in regards to Ozai despite Ozai having decades to change his path as well as being Zuko, Ursa, and Azula's primary abuser.

And Iroh continues to have such negative views about Azula despite the fact that he begrudgingly admits that it took him decades to change his ways, that he only changed after his own son died despite killing countless Fire Nation and Earth Kingdom sons through his warmongering, and that he engaged in imperialism for the same reasons that Azula did: to make his father proud and because he thought it was his destiny.

And to make things worse, the TTRPG, which was created in collaboration with Avatar Studios, reveals that Iroh learned lightning redirection before Lu Ten’s death. So even if Azula was under Ozai's thrall, he could have stopped her abuse, as well as Zuko's in addition to ending the war sooner, by challenging Ozai to Agni Kai after returning from his wandering and killing him by baiting Ozai into shooting lightning and then redirecting it.

“But what about Iroh voicing support for Azula to go on the search for Ursa? That at least proves that Iroh has some care for Azula, right?”

Iroh’s support for Azula going on the search for Ursa could easily be explained by Iroh not wanting to go against the wishes of his beloved nephew, especially since he knows that Azula is the only one with relevant information in regards to Ursa’s location due to Azula burning all the letters in Ozai’s secret trunk save for the “Zuko is a bastard” letter, as well as him knowing that him vocalizing his true thoughts on Azula would make him look unwise and/or cause friction to arise between him and Zuko.

And besides, it is not like Iroh has ever lied to Zuko or others about his true opinions and allegiances before, especially when he, rightfully or wrongfully, thinks it is in everyone’s best interests for him to hide them, right?

“Why do you think that Iroh had a responsibility to challenge Ozai to an Agni Kai and kill him? For don’t you remember that Iroh said, in regards to Zuko asking him to fight Ozai during Sozin’s Comet, that he would not fight Ozai for the throne since history would just see it as two brothers trying to kill each other for power, and so it had to be the Avatar who defeated Ozai?"

My response to that argument is the famous phrase, “The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.”

If Iroh already had his heel-face turn and realized that the war was immoral, wouldn’t the morally righteous thing for him to do is end the war as soon as possible? Especially since he was the person best equipped to stop it considering, unlike the audience, no one in-universe knows when, if ever, the Avatar would return?

Besides, why should we care for Iroh’s opinion in regards to the ramifications of him fighting Ozai for the throne when he, after telling Zuko that he could not fight his own brother to death since history would view it negatively, in the same breath told Zuko to essentially fight his own sister to death for the throne?

So to conclude, why should people care about Iroh's opinion about Azula's (ir)redeemability? Especially when, if people applied his standards to him and Zuko, neither of them would have been able to redeem themselves?

[timur-pannonicus]

One thing I rarely see brought up with the Legacy of the Fire Nation book is this:

Yes, Iroh hates Azula for utterly despicable reasons but ZUKO doesn't.

In the section where he talks about her he does so with a mix of fondness, sadness and nostalgia.

It's still pretty clearly implied that she isn't around anymore, either because she's dead or, as I hope, living somewhere far away with no desire to fully reconcile and have a relationship with him.

[peony-pearl]

So apparently according to Legacy of the Fire Nation, Iroh says ‘my nose didn’t always look like this’ so I suppose I now have a headcanon that, out in battle in his younger years, Iroh got his nose broken pretty badly and that’s why he snores so loud

[burquillos]

Deku and Dynamight call that D&D!!

Pro Heroes taking a pic for a magazine article or something

[trashfactorysstuff]

Azulon. That’s it. That is the post.

+ Bonus

[bendingmuses]

@fiheir sent: “you okay?” for izumi

Izumi took a deep breath at the question and slowly released it. Her head resting on her arms that were folded over the tops of her knees as she stared out at all the buildings in the distance. The teenager had a lot on her mind, but she shouldn't have been surprised that her father had found her so easily. He always seemed to know when something was off. "Yeah. I was just thinking. Being above everything seems to help me clear my head..."

[akiizayoi4869]

My thoughts on Uncle Iroh

I just realized that I never really made a post about Iroh on here, and after talking to some of my friends about him I've come to a conclusion. If you love Iroh then please skip this post.

I hate Iroh. I really fucking hate the guy.

When I was watching the show I noticed some things about him that I didn't like (mainly in regards to Azula) his hypocrisy, how he can be manipulative at times, etc. But I still liked him despite all of that because I saw it as flaws that he could work on to become someone better. He had the potential for that. Clearly the writers didn't think there was anything wrong with him however, otherwise the abomination known as Legacy Of The Fire Nation would not exist. Because this shit right here?

That shit pissed me off. How the actual fuck are you going to blame your niece for the abuse and neglect that your precious nephew suffered at the hands of your brother, when she was just as abused and neglected as Zuko was? And again, she was a damn CHILD. You don't blame the child in that situation. You blame the adult. And if Iroh really cared then he should have done something, but instead he chose to sit by and do nothing. No wonder Azula doesn't like him. He doesn't DO anything. He almost never takes responsibility for his actions. At the first opportunity to run, he does so.

I just can't get over this supposedly "wise" old man talking shit about his niece like this and blaming her for his brother being an abusive dick. My cousin is an abuse survivor. She was abused by her mother for years, and instead of receiving help from our family, she was fucking blamed for her circumstances and pushed to the side because she was seen as the "problem child" for always acting out. Sound familiar?

So yeah, fuck Iroh. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk.

[wingsfreedom]

In Legacy of the Fire Nation book:

Iroh condemns Ozai for "lauding" Azula like he didn't spend the entirety of book lauding the shit out of Zuko, calling Sokka a fool in comparison to him who needed Zuko to stay grounded and claimed that the Fire Nation needs him but doesn't deserve him. Like that is more expensive than anything Ozai supposedly praised Azula with other than her firebending.

And that's just two examples.

[sokkastyles]

I’m reading Legacy of the Fire Nation and will post more coherent thoughts later, but I came to this page and

Oh, where have I seen this image of Katara before? Where have I - 

“the blossoming of true trust,” yeah okay Uncle Iroh.

[queer-apocalypse]

There's this illustration in LotFN of a portrait of young Iroh and Ozai that makes me feel shrimp feelings

[justanotherthrowaway1950]

Zuko and Azula Were Raised Differently

A common argument that people make in order to support their claim that Azula was born evil and/or that Zuko was always a naturally good person was that they were raised in the same household in the same way, and yet, even before Zuko got banished, he had empathy and was generally a decent person while Azula never showed any empathy towards others and was well on the path to becoming the monster she becomes later on in life.

However, in my opinion, this argument fails because its central assumption, that Azula and Zuko were raised the same way, is not true at all.

For even notwithstanding WoG statements by Bryke all but saying Azula is a product of nurture, not nature, the comics not only show that Azula and Zuko were not raised the same, but also explains why that is the case.

This is because Azula and Zuko were literally conceived to help Iroh's line's continued dominance from Azulon's POV, or to help Ozai gain and maintain power from Ozai's POV. 

However, Zuko appeared to be dud due to lacking the spark while Azula was everything that Ozai wished for in a child. So Ozai put all his efforts into raising her into the perfect conqueror and absolute monarch while essentially neglecting Zuko, only really interacting with him in order to emotionally abuse him for not living up to his standards.

Or in other words, Azula was the golden child while Zuko was the scapegoat, meaning that Ozai not only encouraged anti-social behavior in Azula, but also emotionally abused Zuko, often in front of Azula, whenever Zuko tried to act in a prosocial fashion.

Meanwhile, Zuko’s status as Ozai’s scapegoat meant that it was easier for Ursa, and later Iroh, to influence him down a better path since Ozai wasn't invested in him while it was impossible for Ursa due to being a powerless sex slave and Iroh deeming her too under her father’s influence to try.

In fact, Iroh in the Legacy of the Fire Nation all but says that Ozai neglected Zuko and stoked the competition for his favor between Zuko and Azula while at the same time lavishing Azula with “praise” whenever she acted in accordance with his values.

Also, it is implied in the “Zuko is a bastard letter” that Ursa resents Azula for justifying everything the Royal Family did to her since it appeared that, for most of her childhood, Azula was the child of prophecy that led Azulon to find her family and force her to marry Ozai.

“So are you trying to say that how Azula turned out and all of the horrible things she did was not her fault?”

No, because while I was showing how her environment explains her actions and behavior, it does not excuse them. For she was sane when she committed most of her heinous actions, and even when she is insane, the whole existence of “Ursa” shows that what knows what she is doing is wrong.

In fact, I think it reflects poorly on Zuko and Aang that they agreed to Azula’s terms in regards to the search for Ursa before having the unmitigated gall to lose custody of her. 

Especially Zuko since he knows how dangerous Azula is and the threat an escaped Azula presents to the post-war order he is supposed to help protect, and yet disregards all this due to his understandable, but selfish, desire to find Mommy, even though a major part of his redemption arc was learning to put the world’s needs over his desire to have a happy and whole family.

Moreover, I think they are idiots for not dropping everything to bring her in, have a moral imperative to arrest and/or stop Azula again, and would deserve all the scorn in the world if she hurts anyone permanently before they can stop her for good.

“Come on, even if your interpretation of the “Zuko is a bastard” letter is correct, Ursa never let her resentment towards Azula and/or her fear of Ozai affect her parenting towards Azula. For she treated Azula the way she treated Zuko. And if she didn’t, it is because she saw Azula’s latent darkness and decided to save the one child who she could save: Zuko.”

Well, I don’t think Ursa parented Zuko the same way that she did Zuko.

For when Zuko threw bread at the turtle ducks in an attempt to emulate Azula, presumably since Ozai would approve of such behavior, despite not hitting innocent animals being something that should be obvious, Ursa took the time to explain to him why that was wrong in a calm manner that was easy for a 11 year old to understand.

Meanwhile, when Azula burns flowers in the Royal Palace gardens in an attempt to get Ursa’s attention since acting violently gets Ozai’s (positive) attention, Ursa tells Azula to respect the flowers, never once paying attention to Azula saying she burned them because they weren’t perfect, or in other words, I am “perfect”, yet why do you not give me (positive) attention while lavishing Zuko with it?

And while Ursa was more than right to punish Azula by sending her to her room after she burns Zuko for snitching on her, there is never any indication that Ursa ever talked to Azula about why burning flowers is wrong, or why burning them because they aren’t perfect is wrong.

Or in another example, when Zuko fails in his impromptu bending display, Ursa immediately reassures him and praises him for his performance while she says nothing to Azula after her perfect performance.

For while I know that Zuko needed more reassurance, not only in that moment, but also in general, since Ozai had it out for Zuko from birth and Azulon is displeased with Zuko at best while Ozai and Azulon are more than happy with their prodigy/eugenics experiment, Azula is not privy to these dynamics, nor should she since she is a 9 year old.

So it appears to a 9 year old Azula that perfection is not enough to get her mother’s attention while Zuko can be a “screw-up” and still get their mother’s attention.

Or how about when she says out loud what is wrong with that child after Azula disparages Azulon and wishes for his death so Ozai can take the throne, even though she knows that Azula is all but parroting Ozai’s words.

For it might seem obvious to readers and a former peasant like Ursa that wishing for your Grandfather to die so your father can gain more power is utterly vile. 

But to a nine year old who has been repeatedly told that such desires are more than ok, and in fact are natural, it seems like from Azula’s POV that Ursa is berating her for no reason other than because something wrong with her notwithstanding her thoughts, like maybe the fact that she is monster….

(Yes, I know we never see Ozai ever directly talk to Azula about his feelings in regards to the line of succession pre-Azulon’s death, but considering the TTRPG says that Ozai made it a point to teach Azula that conquest is all that matters, even though we never see that on screen or on panel, I don’t think it that much of stretch to assume Ozai in private vented his thoughts about Azulon, Iroh, and Lu Ten to Azula.)

And in regards to the argument that Ursa saw Azula’s inner darkness, and therefore rightfully distanced herself from Azula? That is not supported by text.

For it is true that Noriko might have been motivated by self-preservation when she told Azula that, if she was her mother, she was sorry for not loving her enough, it still does not change the fact that an amnesic Ursa knew by looking at Azula’s face and hearing her raving that Azula’s issue was not that she was born evil, but that she never experienced unconditional love and proper guidance from a parent or parental figure.

And during Smoke and Shadow, Ursa expresses her worry about Azula and acts overprotective towards Kiyi because she did not want to lose another daughter on top of acknowledging during her confrontation with Ozai that Azula never had his love, only his approval.

So to conclude, while it doesn’t excuse any of her actions, the truth of the matter is that Azula turned out differently from Zuko because they were raised differently. For Zuko could not live up to Ozai’s standards for what an imperialist, colonizing, absolute monarch should be, and so was discarded by Ozai, thus allowing Ursa, and later Iroh, to be the primary influences in his life.

Meanwhile, Azula was everything that Ozai wanted, and so he poured all his time and attention into her, with Ursa and Iroh being unable to counteract it short of killing or imprisoning him.

So while it may be true that Azula is irredeemable as of current canon, it is because of how she was raised that led to her becoming irredeemable, not because she was born evil.

[timur-pannonicus]

Current personal Headcanon

At one point Azula realizes she cannot possibly win, neither dethrone nor manipulate Zuko. By then it's already too late for redemption so in order to vanish and truly start anew she fakes her death.

Zuko is however complicit in it and only he knows the truth and they both take it to their grave. A few times they secretly communicate and Zuko is glad she turned her life around and is happy somewhere far away.

That's why in Legacy of the Fire Nation he speaks about her with longing and affection even though his uncle and friends clearly hate her. The words might hurt him but Zuko doesn't want to expose her.