#like do you think they are aware that dean and cas are having nasty gay sex to celebrate today?

[hitmeupaep]

i hope jensen and misha know it’s dean and cas three year wedding anniversary today

[remythologise]

Hello! I found your blog via you amazingly summarizing all that's going on with the spn drama. Due to my schedules, rl stuff, some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me, my availability to find a place to watch...the rollercoaster I was used to with this fandom was more me binging it in a weekend to going months to over a year without watching it. I still haven't watched the last season(but with a fandom this big it's pretty impossible not be spoiled so I more or less know what happened) BUT oh great one I ask of thee for more information if you have it...other than being busy and whatnot, I'm not really one to keep up with the actors as well. So could you also maybe do a summary of all the stans? I'im seeing terms I haven't seen before. Who is Kelios(sp?)? Hellions?? probably messed it up but like...I guess what are the name of each legion? Who do they have alliance towards? What was their desires? Que paso?!?!?!?

Hi there! 'Some of the arcs that didn't vibe with me' me emotionally quitting Supernatural in Season 7 after they killed Castiel 😂 Anyway I totally get it, I went through the same culture shock mid-last year when I got back into SPN and tried to find where fandom was at! There's really a LOT of lore and content after 15 years though so I'll just do the broad brushstrokes based on my impressions and personal stereotypes PLEASE remember this is oversimplifying groups and individuals to tendencies and I'm very biased! Also important that there are sub-factions within sub-factions - again, I'm simplifying here!

I've also linked to the 'Super-wiki' in terms of some definitions because the Super-wiki has pages for them where the Fandom-wiki does not. Great introduction actually - only in the Supernatural fandom. There are two Supernatural wikis. One, through curation and twitter activity, supports BiBro/Wincest factions and does not support Destiel users. One is more neutral or Destiel-friendly (I don't know that the Fandom wiki has a personality/social media presence per se). You cannot make this up. There is a factional war... within use of fandom wikis.

Destiel faction

People who primarily ship Dean/Cas, love Castiel and (often, although not always) Jack, and the 'found family' of Supernatural as well as the brothers, and like the post s3 seasons too. Hated 15.19 and 15.20 for killing Dean and ignoring the other characters/narrative arc of the show. Nicknamed 'Destihellers' by the Wincest faction as a derogatory term, 'reclaimed' and shortened as 'Hellers', a nickname they use affectionately to describe each other. See more info on nicknames here.

Sometimes also ship ‘Cockles’ (the ship between Misha Collins and Jensen Ackles) although generally speaking they're more respectful of the wives of the actors than J2 shippers, who are notoriously responsible for... a vast series of insane-fan misdemeanours. Historically most were also good at keeping RPF to themselves and not harassing celebrities with it directly, although recently, particularly with younger twitter fans, that has not been the case.

Sub-factions:

The ‘Desticule’ or ‘Destiel tumblr’ - general grouping of Destiel-shipping tumblr users around 20-30 years old, usually LGBT+, most who came back to the show post-15.18 after leaving it for various reasons including getting sick of the queerbaiting. Funniest bitches alive etc. and responsible for the best text posts you’ve ever seen. Can also start stupid discourse and in-group drama when they’re bored.

'POLOL' - People of Lots of Letters, a discord group (of tumblr and twitter users) that ran on the assumption Andrew Dabb was playing a hugely intricate game of 3D chess to do with gnostic symbolism among other things, and would make Destiel canon. Have since had their own factional sub-wars and fallen apart a bit. Some of their meta was and is good and interesting! Some of it was wildly off the mark. Now generally insist that Dabb/the writers were all pushing for Destiel canon and the network is entirely to blame.

Twitter fans (TikTok edition) - younger fans around 18 and younger who (FOR REASONS BEYOND ME) started watching the show around 2018-2020. Definition of 'stans'. Tend to be very loud and aggressive on twitter when Events Happen, which like. I do get, because they've grown up in a completely different media environment and this kind of Dinosaur Politicking around LGBT+ issues is beyond them. Fancam central. Anyway stream #CASTIEL for clear skin!

Twitter fans (AO3 edition) - older fans around 30+ who kept going with the show but either don't have a large tumblr presence or just prefer twitter. A lot of fic writers, GISH-ers, and BNFs in this group. Some of them are very cool and reasonable in their opinions, some of them act like the younger stans. Some of them too accepting of what happened wrt 15.19-20 in my opinion, because, in contrast to the younger twitter stans, they grew up expecting Destiel to NEVER be canon or respected. 'Can't believe we got this far' etc.

Multiship faction

Multishippers or shippers of things not as large as the two main behemoths . Sub-factions based on shipping, e.g. Megstiel and Sastiel. I don't think these groups are very large though, and seem to have very little influence in the Discourse.

Wincest faction

LARGE overlap with the 'BiBro' faction and their opinions, which I'll get to. Ship Sam and Dean romantically. Often pretend to be BiBros on places like twitter and reddit in order for outside groups to take their opinions more seriously. 'Wincesties' etc. are derogatory nicknames given by the Destiel faction.

Sub-factions:

Multiship fans - ship Sam and Dean but respect Castiel/the 'found family'. Politically overlap with the faction of multishippers, I think. I don't have a lot of insight on this group of people honestly, but I know they exist.

Bronlies - the typical BiBro and 'Wincest' shippers most people think of, twitter user 'Kelios' is one of the would-be ringleaders of this faction - typically tend to be older white midwestern women. Historically have been pretty nasty on twitter (leading to Robert Berens, writer who made Destiel canon, occasionally subtweeting Kelios). Also tend to ship 'J2' - and take it very seriously as a legitimate thing that is really real. This is called 'tinhatting'.

BiBro faction

People who think the show should JUST be about the brothers, love Supernatural s1-3 and everything after it should have been just like Supernatural s1-3. Hate Castiel, Jack, and the 'found family'. Largely loved 15.20. Go to literally any comments section on any Supernatural article and You Will Find Them complaining about how the show should just be about the Brothers. Tend to be older, straighter, and more conservative/Republican (and male) fans. (I am aware that the definition of 'BiBro' used to refer to people who just liked the brothers but there's no definitional difference now in the discourse.) The Wincest and BiBro faction are generally much more wealthy than the Destiel faction (they being younger and more diverse/queer/left-leaning in general) and would be the biggest revenue generators at conventions etc.

Sub-factions:

Reddit bros - literally anyone who visits r/supernatural. Well, that's not fair - there are people who post reasonable opinions on there, but it's pretty rare and they get downvoted a lot. Like to talk about 'toxic Destiel fans' 'ruining the show' and how Dean is a straight man who is straight and could never possibly be gay. Might even think the confession was platonic despite all evidence to the contrary. I'm Not Homophobic I Have Gay Friends, But No Gays on MY Show!

Old Guard - group of older fans who overlap strongly with the Wincest faction, but might not necessarily ship Wincest.

GA faction

'General Audience' - These are the group of audience members that aren't 'online' so to speak; most watch the show on TV as a Casual Viewing Experience (are therefore also sometimes referred to as 'casuals'. Mostly their opinions tend towards BiBros, but they have a vast range of baffling views thanks to being Not Online and usually Not caring about Supernatural that much or thinking that deeply about it.

Sub-factions:

People who simply watch Supernatural on TV and then don't think about it very much after that.

I said they weren't 'online' but that's not entirely true; I'd probably classify people on Supernatural Facebook Groups as GA, along with friends of friends who post statuses about how 15.20 was a neat finale that wrapped up the series.

Conclusion

Supernatural is famously the show that appeals to both Republicans and Democrats, literally All Orientations, so there's a WIDE range of factions. However, most warring online boils down to Destiel vs. Wincest/BiBro - the war that started in Season 4 and has simply never ended. In terms of the 'actors' and their stans, in general, Wincest/BiBro fans love Jared, like Jensen, and dislike Misha. Destiel fans love Misha, like Jensen, and dislike Jared. Of course as with everything, there are variations and this is just a generalisation. But that's the summary of it, from my perspective!

This didn't even get into Sam girls, Dean girls and Cas girls. God. Anyway.

Hope that answered your question, anon!

[orionsangel86]

100% agree on the selfcest, like

Marvel don't have the balls

They're don't have gay people because they're afraid of backlash, you really think selfcest is the way they're going to go????

Things I wanna know:

WHERE IS B-15 MY BELOVED

They??? Kidnapped an CHILD??? how the fuck did a child step out of your ridiculously drawn boundaries??

Of course they were androids, can't be that easy to contact them. That basically means that Ravonne(?) was in charge. Get the truth out of her, Sylvie

Actually, does this mean that "Time Keepers" don't exist at all?? And this is all a play by a mortal Man™ to keep Order™? A Thanos 2.0?

Fuckin' KNEW pruning wasn't death. Like FIRST of all - pruning? Weird name and in Gardening doesn't it mean to cut away the extra leaves to allow new growth? That doesn't mean the cut part of the plant is dead

What do you think that place is? Also, can't believe they Wandavision and didn't bhage mid credit scenes until EP 4

Ahhh I've only just seen this ask and OOooh I have sooo many of the same thoughts here!

On the selfcest - I don't think using their lack of gay people is actually a great argument against them going for it. Remember that this is selfcest between a man and a woman (well, a male presenting and female presenting Loki anyway which means straight people get to look at them and consider it "normal")

I actually totally think Marvel WOULD choose selfcest between a male and female presenting Loki over any "gay stuff" because I just think Disney are that nasty.

Remember how in Supernatural The CW signed off on Dean textually showing sexual attraction to a DOG (which was very clearly shown to be a female dog) and yet threw a MASSIVE homophobic hissy fit when the show tried to imply he reciprocated Cas's gay feelings to the extent that they totally butchered and ruined the plot of the last two episodes of the show to cover up the gay?

These networks are more willing to support the concept of bestiality between male and female presenting different species than explicitly gay scenes between two consenting men (Looking at you Beauty and the Beast)

So yeah, I would totally believe that Disney would choose the path of "heterosexual appearing" selfcest over anything remotely gay

(yes I know that Loki being attracted to women doesn't make him heterosexual yes I know bierasure is a very real problem and as an actual real life bisexual person I am well aware of this but do NOT give Disney this pass okay.)

That being said, whilst I totally think Disney WOULD choose this route over say, canon romance between Loki and Mobius, I still don't think Loki and Silvie will be a thing. Mobius even called it out in the episode as being twisted and nasty (it IS guys even if you think it's in character for Loki, it's just weird and icky...) so I think it's a misdirect. Its basically this:

"I have feelings for you!"

"I have feelings for you too!"

Narrator: "The feeling was friendship, but neither of them had ever experienced it before."

Anyways, enough about the selfcest!

1. B-15 IS GONNA KICK ASS AND BE AMAZING

2. Oh I actually think there is gonna be a good explanation for that based on Ravonna's refusal to tell Sylvie what the reason was. (Still think maybe it has something to do with the fact that Sylvie isn't actually a Loki? (Please Disney, if you are going for the Loki/Sylvie love pairing route at LEAST reveal her to NOT be a Loki but the Enchantress instead! THAT would make sense!!!)) Otherwise it's probably going to be because she was a GOOD Loki. Like, a Loki who was raised with love and knew who she was and was growing up to make good choices and be a good person and that just didn't fit the timekeepers narrative (which actually makes the whole child abduction thing even worse...)

3. Yeah the time keepers being fake seemed a bit obvious to me, but I still don't think its Ravonna who is in charge. I think it's gonna be a wizard of Oz type situation where it's just some man with an over inflated ego in charge of the whole thing. I've heard rumours about a dude called Kang? But I don't know enough about the comics to really going into any further detail about that.

4. OMG that is such a great point about pruning. You prune plants to keep them neat and growing the way you want them to rather than leaving them to just grow crazy and chaotically the way nature intended. The point is that pruning is a form of control which is technically against nature. But you're right that the pruned pieces aren't dead technically, you can prune, propagate, and regrow.

I think that place is gonna be some sort of dumping ground for all pruned things, both pruned people, and the items on the timeline that were "reset". So you know how young Sylvie was playing with the toy ship? They took Sylvie, and "reset" the timeline which caused the toys to disappear. I think the toys will also be in this place that Loki is now in with all his alternate versions. It's gonna be like a weird pocket dimension or something.

I was so annoyed about that midcredit scene lol! I wasn't expecting it so just stopped watching when the credits first rolled and didn't know Loki came back at first! It was only when I saw people talking about it on here that I was like wait a sec... and went back and watched it! Urgh! What a sneaky trick!!! Lol!

Aahh this answer got long and rambly but please let me know what you think about all this! I am still really enjoying this show even with the icky selfcest implications and can't wait to see the next episode!

[orionsangel86]

How are y'all puzzled by the end and how TPTB, Dabb and Singer seemingly got the wrong message about fandom, when I've seen countless of Destiel shippers being "pro-ship". Advocating to treat incest, pedo*lia and best*ality the same as queer ships, and how it's totally ok. How often "meta crew" called me terf, fascist for saying it shouldn't be accepted into our queer spaces. It got Bobo to write a char for superwiki. They prob thought we're all just thirsty women who want to see two dudes b*ng

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I’m not puzzled. I know some fuckery went down. I’ve stated my opinions countless times now over the past few months over on Twitter and since coming back to Tumblr properly on my conspiracies post:

TPTB are all business, and they made a last minute business decision based on backing the Walker horse and not wanting Destiel to distract from Jared/Sam, whilst being fearful of the gAY scaring away the CisHet Male audience that they so desperately wanted to cling on to for Walker.

Singer has always been a bronly. Has always seen any queer subtext purely as homoeroticism and is definitely the kind of person who would queerbait fans to get views.

Dabb was weak. He backed down and let his script get butchered.

I don’t know what you mean by destiel shippers advocating those things? Unless you mean supporting AO3 not being censored and regulated of course? Because if you are one of these people that thinks that AO3 needs censoring then you are part of the problem. Believe me, no one in Destiel fandom that I know of is normalising incest, pedophilia or bestiality. No one thinks those things are part of queer spaces.

Some people multiship though. So long as they respect tagging systems and don’t force other people to have to see nasty stuff like what you’ve mentioned, then let people be into what they’re into. I might personally find it gross, and a bit strange, but people are always gonna wanna explore fucked up topics for all manner of reasons. We ain’t purity police here.

Also something I feel I need to be very clear on, which I haven’t mentioned before but um “meta crew”. Which meta crew would that be? There are many many meta writers in spn fandom. We are not a hive mind. Some are some of the nicest people I have ever met, some I don’t interact with much but write some really beautiful stuff and seem to be good people, but there are others who call themselves meta writers who are just bullies, who mock and harass anyone who disagrees with their opinion. Do NOT lump us all into the same boat.

Why any meta writers would call you a terf or a fascist without a good reason is beyond me. I don’t have context here do i? Could you look back over what you said and consider if it sounded terfy? Or fascist? I dunno man I don’t have a say in this, if people have called you out for something you’ve said, maybe look back over what you said and try to see it from their angle? Especially if it was transphobic.

A general rule of thumb for interacting with any fandom:

Ship and let Ship - in other words, don’t judge people on the pairings they like, even if they are problematic, so long as those pairings are well tagged and labelled so people can block as necessary.

Your kink is not my kink - Don’t kink shame people. If people wanna write really fucked up shit, that’s their right. Again, so long as it is all tagged and clearly labelled with content warnings, then there shouldn’t be a problem. It’s not on you to psychoanalyse people for their reasons for being into twisted things. Some people may genuinely be abuse survivors who are using it as a coping mechanism. You don’t know.

The Archive is a fandom holy place - it is protected. It is adored. Do not attack it or you will feel the wrath of 100 different fandoms coming at you. The archive is free from censorship, free from corporate manipulation, free from outside sources trying to mess with it. The archive belongs to US.

Just generally don’t be an asshole. Fandoms tend to attract people who are different from the general norms of society. We were the nerds and losers in school, the queer kids, the ones struggling with MHI. We all have a lot of shit and are all just trying to navigate our way through life via our passions. Don’t shit on peoples passions. You’ll come across a load of people who disagree with you, and occassionally you might be unfortunate enough to come across actual bullies. But most of the time, it won’t take much to rub someone the wrong way because everyone in these spaces tends to be at least kind of emotional, and attached to their passions. So you really do have to be polite. I can’t even tell you how many people in this fandom hate me - some to the point of obsession and slander. I’ve got a block list a mile long and continue to add people to it. There are posts out there with my name and screenshots from my SM spreading lies and hate about me, encouraging people to laugh at me and accusing me of doing things that I have never had the time or the energy to do. Shit happens. Don’t be those people, and you’re golden.

Superwiki is well known by SPN writers for being a bible of information for the show. The writers have previously confirmed that they refer to the SuperWiki when wanting quick research for their episodes. Yes, Bobo named a character after the person who runs the wiki, but I doubt Bobo is aware of how problematic that person is. The name was just in honour of someone who put a lot of work into building the wiki, hell, even I use the wiki! But I certainly don’t support any of Jules personal views. Don’t read into things like that. It never means what you think.

The thirsty women part I would have agreed with back 6 years ago. But they have adapted with us now. We are no longer Becky in season 4. We became Charlie remember? And after that we became intelligent teenagers wanted to tell an exciting story. If they thought destiel shippers were all about the hot guys banging, they certainly wouldn’t have made the love story canon, and they did that. Remember? Cas confessed his love for Dean, and it was the most beautiful, touching, heartfelt moment in the entire series. They did that. Not because they wanted us to objectify the actors, but because they knew how much that love story meant to us. Unfortunately, the network had other ideas for the actual finale. But that doesn’t take away the writers intentions up to that point. So please don’t erase what they worked for.

Ultimately I’m not sure what point you were trying to make with this ask, but this post is I suppose my very long way of saying you are wrong.

[orionsangel86]

Do you think Dean will pray to Cas while they’re both in the bunker, in separate rooms? And then Cas will hear the prayer and go to Dean’s side and they’ll finally talk...

I think for extra angst and emotional stakes, Cas will be in a position where he cannot get to Dean, and cannot reach out to him in any way, leaving Dean to believe that Cas has either not heard the prayer, or did and is ignoring him.

Enter phase two of the DeanCas final season emotional story arc - extreme pining and winning him back. :P

Look if we wanna get the most out of this final season DeanCas plot, then the stakes have to be raised and the interest has to be high. Soooo, here’s how it should go:

Following the super emotional and tense break up scene at the end of 15x03 which was the climax of several episodes worth of Dean acting like a total asshole pushing Cas away and basically being irrational - behaviour which remains a bit of a mystery to this day - something will happen to give Dean a big old change of heart (potentially the return of an ex boyfriend who Dean gets drunk with and pours his heart out to following a wild night of karaoke and booze). It would be great if in episode 8 Dean and Cas have to work together for big plot stuff and Dean tries to reconcile but Cas is all like “bitch I am not talking to you right now” leaving Dean all *sad face* about it, then by end of episode 8 something happens to Cas like I dunno the Empty kidnaps him to drag him to join the actual Team Free Will of Jack, Billie and the Empty to plot against Chuck but Dean isn’t aware, and so in episode 9 Dean gets all emotional and prays his big love confession to Cas, which Cas hears because Gay Love can pierce through the veil of death and save the day but Cas is still stuck with The Empty and Billie being like “dude we can deal with your ex husband later we have bigger things to focus on right now” and Cas is all *sad face* because he misses his husband now he realises Dean is just a big dumb idiot who is afraid of feelings and thinks his whole love affair with his angel bae is all fake. So Dean is even more *sad face* because now he thinks his whole love confession has been rejected and his ex husband is never coming home and he spends his days pining and pissing off his weary brother who is still dealing with a shit ton of issues like seeing ever more frequent visions of au worlds and getting a nasty pain in his shoulder whenever Chuck decides to poke his wound (but hey at least his girlfriend returned from the dead)

*takes breath*

Annnnd that’s how Supernatural became a telenovella in it’s final season. 

Oh yeah, eventually they reunite and its all very dramatic and emotional and they kiss and break the internet which is frankly very frustrating for everyone involved. 

Obviously this is all crack... or is it?