#lost posting again to affirm that im a lost mutual

[theleseroftwoweevils]

[jeannereames]

I just finished ‘Becoming’ and I absolutely loved it! I just wondered if you believe that AtG and Hephaistion continued their romantic relationship throughout their lives or if you think they let that side of their friendship go as they got older as was more common at the time? Anyway! I absolutely loved ‘Becoming’ and I can’t wait to read ‘Rise’!

I’m guessing you’re asking about the historical people, as opposed to the fictional characters? I do hope/plan to continue the Dancing with the Lion series, and in it, yes, they will remain romantically involved. Whether or not future novels are bought, however, rests on how well Becoming and Rise do. (So if you want more, get the word out and post reviews. *grin*)

Yet, with regard to the historical men, I think it’s very hard to know whether they remained sexual partners as adults. And the reason it’s hard to know involves the difficulty of our surviving sources.

As soon as historians start talking SOURCES, a lot of folks tune out. It’s BORING. *grin* But in order to give an honest answer, I kinda have to Go There.

First, let me give the TL;DR version. If they were still sexually involved as adults, I suspect it was quite occasional. And the fact it was quite occasional (if at all), may be why we don’t hear anything about it in the sources (discussion to follow). After all, they were both extremely busy men with duties and responsibilities that sometimes kept them apart for months. If they were still sexually/romantically involved, they had what we’d today call a long-distance relationship at points…and without the benefit of cell phones.

It may have been a gradual “weaning” from each other, rather than anything sharp. So they may have been lovers as teens, then over time, each took younger beloveds, and finally, wives—all while remaining emotionally very, very close. (Although I suspect that, like any friendship OR love affair, they had ups-and-downs, fights and reconciliations.)

Now, here’s why the TL;DR summary above gets a big fat label: “SPECULATION.”

The sources are the only way we know anything about the past, and if they can’t be trusted, or at least not trusted in toto, we have a Really Big Problem. So let me lay it out.

Before I do, however, I want to remind readers that I DO think Alexander and Hephaistion were lovers, at least in their youth. But no, it’s not “obvious.” Theirs wasn’t a world especially reticent about same-sex affairs (*cough* see below), even if post-Christian, modern historians had trouble with it until the last 40 years or so. So if the (surviving) ancient authors don’t talk about them as lovers, even while discussing other same-sex pairs in the same damn text, we have to ask…why? One very real possibility is that they didn’t talk about them as lovers because they weren’t. Full stop. There could have been other reasons (I think there were), but let’s not flinch from being honest, here.

(This could have been a lot more graphic, but then I’d have to post a warning on my blog.)

So…back to our Persnickety Sources.

First, nothing has survived that Alexander wrote himself. We have a couple public inscriptions, but not one piece of writing, even a letter, from Alexander. (Any surviving letters are quoted in later sources, and probably aren’t real.*)

Second, nothing has survived written by anyone who actually knew Alexander, or even lived when he did, except forensic speeches from Athenian demagogues who mostly hated him (and weren’t writing histories anyway). One may as well trust Demosthenes on Philip.

The sources we do still have used histories written by those who knew Alexander, such as Ptolemy, Aristobulos, Nearchos, Marsyas, and even the court historian, Kallisthenes. They also used other texts of dubious worth, such as Onesikritos, who was made fun of even in his own day for writing “historical fiction.” And sometimes our later authors were using texts who, themselves, were using earlier texts. So we’ve got three (or more) layers, not just two!

Third, we have not just layers of sources, but layers in the CULTURE behind those sources.

The first layer is, of course, Macedonian. How did the Macedonians themselves view Alexander? We don’t know—not truly. Nothing survives from a Macedonian source, such as Marsyas or Ptolemy. (Some of you “in the know” might be thinking, But Polyaenus! No. Polyaenus lived 500 years after ATG; that was a very different Macedonia. [Yes, I used the Latin spelling, as he was Roman. ;p])

The second layer is Greek, but we have to qualify this. Layer 2.0 is Greece of the 4th century, especially Athenian reactionism, writing about the emerging Macedonian kingdom. There could be huge cultural differences even among Greek city-states. Case in point: Athens vs. Sparta. Greeks didn’t always understand Macedonians (sometimes, I swear, on purpose).

BUT we also have the increasingly homogenized Hellenistic world of the Successors, which was sorta like when you throw in a bunch of different colored shirts and wash them in hot water. You get a color-bleeding mess. Your red shirt (Attic-Ionic) might have a big blue streak (Doric) on it now. That’s sort of what happened to Greek culture as the Hellenistic era progressed. Lots of bleed. This had begun prior to Alexander, but he accelerated it like kerosene on a trash fire. We can call that Greek Layer 2.1, or something.

Then we have the Romans, and their culture, which, if similar to Greek, definitively wasn’t Greek in key ways. All our surviving sources were written as the Republic was collapsing and the Empire emerging, and by that point, Greece was a Roman province.

Again, we’ve got two groups here: Greeks living under Roman rule, such as Plutarch, Diodorus, and Arrian—who wrote in Greek—and then Roman authors such as Curtius, and later Justin, who wrote in Latin. But the Greeks under Rome shouldn’t be conflated with Athenians in ATG’s own day, or even under the Successors. The culture evolved and took on Roman shadings.

So that’s not just layers of sources, but layers of cultures trying to understand what people who lived a hundred or two hundred or three hundred years before them thought/believed.

Ergo, are we hearing what Alexander (or anybody else around him) really thought or intended? Or just what writers of the Second Sophistic (such as Plutarch) wanted him to model? Or how even later authors, such as Arrian, wanted to use him to flatter his patron, Hadrian?

What’s Roman, what’s Greek, and what’s Macedonian? Can we tease that out? I’d say it’s damn tricky, and often, flat impossible—although unlike some of my colleagues, I don’t believe it’s all Roman overlay. That goes too far in the other direction, IMO.

Last, we have several authors who weren’t writing about Alexander specifically, but have bits of Alexander lore embedded in their texts: Athenaeus’s “Supper Party,” or Polyaenus’s “Strategems,” or even Plutarch’s “Moralia,” just to name three.

Among these, especially later, we have authors writing material they (or later readers) tried to pass off as written by earlier authors. We often refer to these authors with the preface “Pseudo-” as in “Pseudo-Kallisthenes.” It was NOT written by Kallisthenes, but was later attributed to him.

So, now you have some idea of why Alexander historians want to pull our hair out!

But I detail that to explain why it’s so hard for me to give you any clear answer about whether Alexander and Hephaistion remained lovers as adults. Or even if they were lovers at all.

In none of our five primary histories of Alexander, nor in Plutarch’s other stuff, nor Athenaeus, etc. is Hephaistion ever called Alexander’s lover. This includes sources that do mention with apparent unconcern other pairs of male lovers. So this isn’t “the love that dared not speak it’s name.” The Greeks were pretty okay with talking about their boyfriends.

There could be OTHER reasons for deep-sixing mention of Hephaistion and Alexander as lovers, mostly having to do with status (some of which I touched on in the novels), yet the lack of clear affirmation is a problem. The only mentions we do have come from late sources, one of which belongs to that category of “pseudo-” authors I mentioned: Pseudo-Diogenes (in Aelian), as well as Arrian recording the Stoic Epiktatos. The philosophers are trying to make a point about the dangers of giving in to physical desire, so it’s hard to know how much credit to give these references.

Thus, we’re left with little besides the indirect (e.g., the Achilles-Patroklos allusions, etc.). Those have their own problems, which I’ll not go into now, as I’ve already written a small essay.

One potential reason for a lack of mention in our surviving sources is that any sexual love affair had been a product of their youth. What remained was a fiercely deep and passionate devotion. Before you pooh-pooh that—Of course they were still having sex!—consider modern marriages that have lasted for decades but no longer include sexual activity, at least between the married partners. Don’t be sucked in by Romance novel tropes.

When I was doing bereavement counseling (et al.), I ran into all sorts of arrangements that married couples made across time. Some marriages break up when the partners stop being sexually attracted to each other, and “cheat.” But others don’t, because it’s not “cheating” if it’s mutually agreed to. Or in some cases, the partners simply lost interest in sex as they aged…but didn’t fall out of love with each other. So they might have sex once a year? Maybe? That was enough. Or they had sex on the side, with permission. People don’t fit into boxes well, IME. Honesty was the hallmark of marriages that lasted even when they weren’t still having sex. I’ve known of marriages where the couples had stopped having sex years ago, but when one of them died, the other was completely devastated because of the enormous EMOTIONAL investment. I think that’s what hit Alexander when Hephaistion died. Maybe they were still having sex, at least once in a blue moon. Maybe they weren’t. That didn’t matter.

LOVE is deeper than sex, by a long shot. Which is why the Greeks counted PHILIA (true friendship) as the superior love to eros (desire).

So whether Alexander and Hephaistion were still sexually involved—or had ever had sex—doesn’t reflect the depth of their love for each other. We might not be told by the sources that they were lovers, physically, either as youths or continuing into adulthood. But the sources are abundantly clear that they loved each other best of all. When Hephaistion died, Alexander followed him about 10 months later.

(Final note: what I intend to do in the series, going forward, is a bit different from what I described here, but that’s why I specified this involves the historical men, not necessarily my fictional characters.)

*My reference to quoted material, such as letters—or speeches—not being real: it was a common practice in the ancient world for the author of histories, especially starting with Thucydides, to just MAKE SHIT UP. It was all about showing off one’s own rhetorical skills. I think, in a lot of cases, we are probably getting at least the gist of what was said. But NEVER, EVER, EVER trust the “transcription” of an ancient speech…unless it was actually recorded later by the author. So, say, Demosthenes’ Philippics are probably a cleaned up version of the speeches he delivered. But Alexander’s “Speech at Opis” is NOT what Alexander actually said.

[zevlors-tail]

im so sorry people have been so cruel to you its disgusting that people think its okay to talk to anyone like this but especially someone who is quite open about their struggles i'll be sad to see you go i always enjoyed seeing you around but i hope it helps you feel better your comfort is the most important thing <3

Thanks, anon. I appreciate that. I might just archive the blog tbh. I feel a lot more calm than last night, so I'm trying to be rational about it, but unfortunately this isn't the first time I've been sent nasty shit like that. Generally I do not enjoy being here anymore. More of an explanation under the cut but please do not feel obligated to reply or like you have to say anything, I just wanted to put this out here.

If i'm being completely honest, right now tumblr feels like that toxic ex that you just don't want to let go of. I cried over this decision, mulled over it, really tossed it around in my brain before coming to this conclusion, and I think it's what's best. I don't want to leave, but staying here has not helped me in any way.

Then again, I still feel like I'm overreacting...idk. I'll figure things out eventually, I guess. Maybe I should give it some more time. I realized this morning there's a lot of progress on this blog and I don't want to completely destroy all of it...all of my personalized tags, all the stuff I've reblogged, author recs, reading recs, my favorite pieces...that's a lot to just toss away and start fresh.

And my friends. I've had so many good conversations lately with people and was just beginning to feel like I was getting a grip on keeping up with messages and tagging them in things and sending friendly asks. It's hard too because I always have this fear that I'm annoying people with how much I post, that anyone who sees me on the dash or in their ask box is just like, "Ugh, they're so annoying. I wish they would just stop trying to have conversations with me but I'm not going to tell them that because I don't want to hurt their feelings or look bad."

AND I KNOW THAT'S IRRATIONAL. I KNOW that's probably not even CLOSE to the truth. But I can't help but think that and then when anons send me hate it feels like that's being affirmed. I've been better about it lately, I remind myself it's not true and that it's just some words, but the truth of the matter is that it's still bullying and harassment, and what people say directly about someone else matters. I feel like I just lost weeks of progress with my self image and positive affirmations. And yeah, I can build it back up, but no one should have attacked it in the first place.

And it both pisses me off and freaks me out that it was probably someone who follows me. How can you follow a blog like mine, where I'm so open and honest about how I'm feeling, where I vent all the time about my personal struggles and try to encourage vulnerability and make it a safe space, and then send something like that? I suppose it could have just been a random anon who went through the discourse tag or the other trigger tag in the post, but it's not like I tagged that post with fandom related tags. It's not like it had anything other than the trigger tags. And it was so quick too...like literally 30 seconds after I posted it.

If I EVER catch a follower or a mutual doing that shit, I WILL drag you through the fucking mud and out your sorry ass. I don't normally jump on call out posts, I don't like them, and I don't make them or reblog them most of the time- but THAT is the one exception I will make.

Anyways. I think I definitely overreacted last night and I need some more time to cool off and collect myself. I don't feel good. I do appreciate and love you guys for supporting me and giving me so much kindness, so thank you for that.

<3

[at-divinebeing]

update on a post about women

black cat, the pianist: she recently invited me to this listening party she was having at her crib. I been hellllla flaky with plans that arent related to music as of late but I knew I wanted to reciprocate cause she supports me so hard. so i pull up and her friend answers the door. as I come inside all of her friends are in the living room chatting and as I get ready to introduce my self the pianist snatches me into her room and goes “I dont want you to meet my friends like this”. straight like a cartoon! so im in her room and she’s actually getting a tarot reading from another one of her friends so I’m kind of standing there watching for a couple of minutes when she gets a call from a mutual friend and she asks me to go outside and find him? I go, “sure ok”. and she shoves me out of the room to go find him now I’m in the living room looking at the people that just saw me get dragged into the room. lol so I step outside to look for our friend, hella confused. to the point where I’m like “what am I doing? where am i supposed to be looking? i think I’m gonna leave this is weird” so I go back inside and tell her “i think im gonna leave. i feel uncomfortable” and she’s super confused, trying to explain why she was kind of pushing and pulling me all over the place when the mutual friend shows up to the house. she leaves the room, introduces him to her friends, and then comes back in the room to talk to me. and I’m like, “WHY COULDNT YOU HAVE DONE THAT TO ME?? this is all so weird!!! I’m ready to go!”. It was a really awkward situation that she wasnt really at fault but I think she was trying to do a bunch of stuff at once and got overwhelmed? I just felt weird after that whole thing tho and didnt wanna be there so i left. we apologized to each other about a few days after and a couple days ago she broke down why she moved the way she did. she was mostly trying to facilitate me meeting her friends because she fucks with me so much... which I can get. BUT PLEASE DONT. lol I HATE feeling like im getting some red carpet kinda treatment... just treat me normal. I wanna learn to be less impulsive with how I feel and learn to read these situations smoothly without aborting like that, but it was SO WEIRD hahahaha.

SB: so, my ex. the girl I lost my virginity to. she’s been trying her DAMNDEST for us to have some kind of interaction on an intimate level. we recently tried to meet for dinner and through a miscommunication it ended up falling through. from that sparked a conversation about how she felt like talking to me was hurting her because its bringing back these unresolved feelings she had and she was probably setting herself up to be disappointed. I was feeling the same things and honestly I ended up going into detail about how I was apprehensive to get close because I knew how delicate her feelings were and more importantly how delicate I WAS coming from this shitty ass breakup. a very understanding exchange, she appreciated my honesty and I appreciated her even hearing me out. lately my interactions with women that include me being vulnerable NEVER turn out good unless they’re one of these 3 ladies. ANYWAY, yesterday she came by for a reading and she’s been very apprehensive about this new business endeavor she’s been working on. her social media platform is HUGE and she wants to capitalize but she’s scared to make wrong moves. I gave her some pep talk, the reading, some affirmations and everything went really solid. I have high hopes for her and what she wants to do, we share a lot of similar fears in our pursuit of creative prominence. fear of success, fear of being exposed as phony. i have to be reassuring. you’ve got this. DO THE THING. IF YOU FAIL TRY AGAIN.

black cat, the Virgo: me and her got this verrrrrrryyyy interesting relationship. Im realizing she’s showing me so much about the proper give and take within love and relationships. I do a lot of listening to her... I can tell she’s got so much to say and so much on her mind. from spirituality, to the people around us, to personal struggles, and she’s very receptive to my own releases. I wanna get more on top of reciprocating the energy I’m receiving. especially if its positive and loving. she’s also my drug dealer lol. and we have a sporadic amount of sex which is fun lol. and as an older woman she kinda gives the vibe that I want from a partner going forward. she’s never overwhelming or suffocating, she doesn’t mind when I need space, she’s very confident and has a lot of conviction in what she believes in so she’s not afraid to disagree with me. I am just so apprehensive about going beyond whatever the fuck we got going right now. i still feel like part of us may be using each other to feel a hole that was recently put there in our lives. and we’re both very aware of that possibility which is ANOTHER really dope thing about our relationship. THAT COMMUNICATION. although I can tell she holds a lot of things in for whatever reason. I really wanna be more insistent about vulnerability and proper communication about what is desired from me.