#marius and sulla

[just-late-roman-republic-things]

Today's book review: The Storm Before the Storm, by Mike Duncan!

I've liked Duncan's work for a long time. He's exceptionally good at making complex subjects easy to follow, and he's considerably better than Tom Holland, Michael Parenti and most "pop historians." His podcast, The History of Rome, is still one of the best bird's-eye views of the period from 753 BCE to 476 CE. Yep. It is LONG.

Anyway, The Storm Before the Storm runs from the end of the Punic Wars in 146 BCE, through the wars of Jugurtha, the socii, Marius and Sulla, to Sulla's death in 78. The goal of this book is to explore how the Roman republic became so damaged that men like Caesar and Pompey were able to break it apart. It also serves a valuable place as one of the few mainstream books covering this time period.

I do think this is a good introduction to the Gracchi, Marius, Sulla and the struggles of their generation. Duncan makes the events exciting without over-dramatizing them, and although he expresses horror and dismay as civil war erupts, he's good at not taking sides with any particular faction. Most of his claims come directly from classical sources he's read.

That said, he's less acquainted with recent scholarship, so some of his claims are outdated. He repeats the "agrarian hypothesis" which is now discredited - that is, the idea that large slave plantations exacerbated the divide between rich and poor, and displaced many families to the city where they destabilized Roman politics. He also repeats the old ideas of Gaius Marius being chiefly responsible for the Marian reforms, which in turn made armies more loyal to their generals than to the government. In reality, those reforms were much more small-scale, and did not fundamentally change the incentives or culture of army life. (For a thorough analysis, see Gruen's Last Generation of the Roman Republic, chapter 9.)

There is also the question of whether the Roman republic was "on the road to ruin" by Cicero and Caesar's era, a view that Duncan shares with most popular history. But Gruen (LGRR), Morstein-Marx (Julius Caesar and the Roman People) and others have made comprehensive arguments to the contrary: that it was not the decline of the republic that caused the civil war of 49, but the civil wars of 49-30 that caused the demise of the republic. Personally, I lean more toward that view, but there's no consensus.

In short, I think Duncan's work is very good for learning the concrete events of this time period, and how the classical sources portrayed these events. But be cautious of his analyses for the bigger picture, and look at more academic sources, too.

[pinklasagnasfan]

marius and sulla

there’s no way anyone could convince me they weren’t lovers

[catominor]

they hated him for his decrepit cunt serve. and also the war crimes

[duxfemina]

It's the late Roman Republic...

Now put in the tags what you selected and who you THINK it's referring to... Because I sneakily had at least two people in mind when I made each option and when the poll is over I'll reveal who I had in mind for each option

[catilinas]

watching the new bbc documentary on caesar and well. it is not very good

[stcantarella]

all my haters become dictators when i get the mithradatic command of success

[mariussuggestions]

If I had been at the Stabbening you know I would have consumed him. Sulla might have haunted his narrative but at the end it's still me slurpin

[elainesknight]

THEORY: Roman Republic died because of father issues

PROOF: Her last fathers were

Gaius Marius: Father of failson

L. Cornelius Sulla: A daddy not a father

He Who Speaks: Dolabella marriage, Octavian situation, Cicelina fic

Every man's WIFE: Self evident

CONCLUSION:

Cicero and Hortensius should have fucked nasty on the rostra. SPQR

[edwardscissorfeet]

marius when the military he wanted loyal to single generals and motivated by personal interests are. do you know. the jokes write themselves

[187o]

*don't cross the pomerium while armed*

Marius : Let me guess this sign can't stop you because you can't read ?

Sulla : I can, I just don't care

[ghoul-haunted]

when is he not doing this

[just-late-roman-republic-things]

Marius & Sulla: former friends who'd fought multiple wars together before their conflicting ambitions put them at each other's throats

Caesar & Pompey: former friends and in-laws who both tried to prevent their civil war before pride, suspicion and political pressures tore their alliance up anyway

Antony & Octavian: hate at first sight lmao

[skyeventide]

It's funny to use the words Sullans and Marians to define the factions of the Marius-Sulla conflict because it sounds like Sulla is going to square off against the Virgin Mary

[catominor]

honestly i have to thank colleen mccullough for making me think about gaius marius instead of this girl i was insane level hung up on (btw i did not even actually date her) last year

[duxfemina]

If you were going to pin the BEGINNING of the downfall of the Roman Republic on the actions of one Roman

[catilinas]

wikipedia list of roman consuls who exploded