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carulenes · 1 year

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an analysis of wolfwood’s characterization in trigun stampede as well as his connection to vash (+ why i believe he’s likely much older than we think)

okay i’ve been thinking abt this since eps 10 or 11 were released (this show became my special interest the second it dropped if i'm being completely honest) but its been scratching at my brain ever since i read the sakuracon radio interview and since i haven’t seen anyone talking abt this yet i figured i may as well because it’s clear they really did pull very extensively from the manga and i really am loving how they adapted his character. also i occasionally keep seeing the “tristamp wolfwood is a kid/is 14-15” takes which i need to at least try to help put to rest bc they make no sense given his other iterations and would actively make the story worse.

a quick tldr of my main points before i get on my very long winded soapbox:

wolfwood in trigun stampede has been used as an undying, unkillable soldier by the eye of michael for decades.

rollo as a character, as opposed to monev the gale, was designed specifically as a metaphor for wolfwood’s backstory.

wolfwood and vash are written to be literal complements to one another.

I literally don’t think I have the space to talk abt all my thoughts, and ofc these are all my personal thoughts so any and all of what i’m saying could be wrong, but direct analysis of eps 4-7 (as I think they’re the most important) and discussion of his trajectory in general under the cut (obvious spoilers for the show but also the manga as well as tw: discussions of suicide/suicidal ideation as well as the general tw list for the show's graphic content):

Starting first with a side point that Wolfwood was never a child at any point he was with Vash during thecourse of the story, including the manga. He has always been a man in his 20s, with trimax ww having the appearance of being in his 30s or 40s. It is absolutely crucial to his and Vash’s characterizations, as well as their entire dynamic together, that Wolfwood is an adult. Could make an entire separate post about this, but I feel like starting here is important.

Onto the sakuracon japan radio interview. The team gave a LOT of interesting insight into the development of the show, but one specific point stood out to me:

This is important, because I definitely missed it during the show’s initial run, but I think it’s REALLY obvious once you know what you’re looking for, and is a big factor in why I think he’s likely older than we realized.

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EP 4: These are the very first lines that are said about him in the show, and the very first time we see him, he is absolutely exhausted:

We know that at this point, Wolfwood is likely on his way to Jeneora Rock to meet up with Vash to fulfill his contract...until Vash and co. quite literally slam into him (and his life) unexpectedly, nearly killing him with their van. He probably should’ve died except… he’s on his feet almost instantly, able to walk perfectly fine and being a jackass as though he didn’t get launched halfway across the desert by a moving vehicle. Which is… odd, naturally.

When they try to find help and instead find the dead couple, he specifically mentions that he isn't a priest like he's been in other iterations. He's now an undertaker, someone meant to guide others through their deaths:

His personality is hard to tap down. He's goofy and childish and downright unlikeable, and there's a hint of something lurking deeper, something menacing and potentially dangerous. So much so that Roberto is on edge the entire time their group is together after being swallowed by the Grand Worm, and flat out tells Vash that Wolfwood is untrustworthy and likely an assassin, "a man who can kill with a smile on his face". And Vash’s response is… really fucking weird, given how long the two have known each other:

not to mention he's wearing sunglasses Wolfwood is rightfully very ??? in response because, what the fuck is he talking about, and why is he so genuine about it, they just met???

Fast forward to a bit later, when Wolfwood is like "hey man, you really shouldn't be so trusting. I could've shot you in the back several times now." To which Vash is like "but you didn't, though." And Wolfwood is even more confused because is this guy stupid???

And then it's time for the final act: Wolfwood reveals his Punisher, destroying the Grand Worm while giving the illusion of taking out Zazie as well. Meryl was informed by someone that Wolfwood had been the one to save them all, but when she tries to thank him, he immediately shifts the subject, being annoying and arguably completely unlikeable. Roberto points out that Wolfwood had lied about who he was, trying to get Vash to realize that he still can't be trusted, and again Vash shoots it down: "We're alive because of him."

Wolfwood showed his role as the Punisher without hesitation, and not only was Vash not really phased by it, but he actually seemed to be inspired by him, stopping his self-destructive tendencies and even repeating his own words back to him. And that's the moment we finally learn his name in the show:

But then, almost immediately, we have a complete reversal of his scene with Vash in the Worm. It’s also of note that Zazie always specifically says human lives:

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EP 5: One of the most important episodes in this discussion, and it starts with the name alone, "Child of Blessing". Here’s a very general summary:

A young boy in a much less than ideal living situation is chosen to be 'a blessing upon the world through his sacrifice', which turns out to secretly be mutilative experimentation on children in search of a subject compatible with a mysterious medicine that can heal any injury. The meds warp him, morph him into something that doesn't even appear to be human. He tries to return home, but his mother, the only family he knows and loves, is terrified of him. She calls him a monster, and the boy finds himself struggling to articulate who he is. Then, he wanders alone alone without purpose in that unchanging altered body, a body that can withstand lethal amounts of damage directly because of the meds, for at least 20 years. All he has is a single name: Vash the Stampede, the person who promised to save him, and the one person who managed to bring back his consciousness in the end, if only for a moment.

The moment Nicholas sees Rollo regenerate is the second the switch flips. He instantly demands to know what the fuck is up with him, and when Vash responds telling him that he was too late to give him the medicine he needed, Wolfwood shuts down, because he recognizes himself. From this moment until the rest of the episode, we are no longer seeing Nicholas D. Wolfwood; we're seeing Nicholas the Punisher.

Vash continues to push Rollo to remember who he is, while Nicholas continuously says that there's no way to save him, that he's already a monster now. In the final moments, Nicholas inevitably feels tasked with Rollo's death like the undertaker he is, and when Vash angrily demands to know why he took the shot, his response is:

When discussing Rollo's killer, Elendira refers to Nicholas by name, but Conrad specifically states that no, he is the Punisher.

In vol 10 of the manga, Vash thinks to himself: “I met a strange man. Just as I thought we had come to an understanding, I found that our core beliefs were opposed to each other. I was used to such situations, but I wonder how he felt.”

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EP 6: This episode builds directly upon the foundations set by the episode prior. Child of Blessing ended with Rollo being referred to repeatedly as a monster, and this episode begins with Nicholas in the middle of completing a kill. Right before he does, his victim gets one final glance at his assailant, an inhuman looking executioner, and calls him a monster… directly because he will not die. He’s also been shown knocking back meds like tequila shots in tristamp, which we all know was NOT possible in the manga. During the flashback scene, Nicholas is literally called the Child of Blessing.

We see a very similar sequence with Nicholas that we saw with Rollo; the horrific torture, the bodily mutilation (during which Conrad specifically mentions that the drug will heal all damage done the body, as well as rebuild and strengthen the cells), and the attempt to return home:

Something different happens with Nicholas, though. Nicholas can't go home; he’s literally yanked away from his chance at freedom by Legato. Nicholas can’t go home, likely ever again in his mind, because Hopeland Orphanage and the Eye of Michael represent two fundamentally different ideals.

Hopeland (and thus Livio) is exactly like its name for Nicholas: it is is land of hope, the only place in the world where Wolfwood was allowed to exist freely. When Nicholas was taken by EoM, Wolfwood began to die.

The entirety of the EoM is shrouded in imagery of death and rebirth, specifically in regards to humanity. Humanity in this case has a dual meaning: humanity as a species, and humanity as a concept. Their philosophy is that the end justifies the means in that humans in this form will be preserved and would likely live exceedingly longer lives but, as repeatedly mentioned, there are side effects.

Aging and death are integral parts of the human experience, the two aspects of life that we ALL experience regardless of circumstance. Can you be human without humanity?

The message behind these two episodes is to show that the process of becoming part of the EoM is a metaphorical crucifixion symbolizing the death of one’s humanity. And Nicholas is interesting, because he’s almost the perfect specimen in their eyes and is treated as such. Almost. The only thing holding him back are the two strands of humanity he has left, both which are nearly destroyed in the very next episode.

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EP 7: In the previous episode, during the animated flashback of Nicholas and Livio, we see a few scattered scenes of other people living at the orphanage. Interestingly, while almost all of the children are seen with very sparse detail (or even none really at all), there is one person, the caretaker, whose face we get a pretty clear picture of. At the very beginning of this episode, we have the first and only shot of the inside of the orphanage in the usual style. While none of the children are familiar and actually aren’t incredibly distinguishable from one another, there is one figure in the room with recognizable hair, but looks considerably older than in the flashback:

During the majority of their interactions, you don’t see Nicholas and Livio interacting with any of the other children. They are simply a background, a set piece to the story and a representation of just how other they were forced to become.

This episode features them fighting each other, dealing each other what should be mortal wounds, but somehow remain standing, as though they’re perfectly fine. As if on cue, the soldiers stationed call them both monsters and run away in fear.

But Vash doesn’t run from the danger. He runs towards it.

Nicholas tries to stop him, and all he gets in return is “he’s important to you, isn’t he?” as though that’s enough. But it is enough for Vash. And Nicholas doesn’t know what to do with that.

Nicholas comes dangerously close to giving up, to giving into his role as the Punisher and killing the last bit of Wolfwood to do so, but it’s Vash who stops him. He diverts his shot and, instead of hurting Livio, literally frees Nicholas from Legato and Zazie’s trap. Vash tells him to make him remember, and Nicholas thinks it’s bullshit… until he doesn’t.

And when he finally relents, when he tries to emulate what the silly blonde idiot keeps screaming at him about… It works. For a moment, but Livio does wake up for a moment. Nicholas hadn’t been able to see Rollo, but he did see this. And he really doesn’t know what to do about it.

To drive the point home, Livio drives a bullet into his own head and falls to the ground in a scene very reminiscent of Rollo’s death… but is implied to still be alive. With him saved, now it’s time for Hopeland. And this is when the narrative really turns a focus to the balance between Nicholas and Vash.

The group is half convinced that they’re about to die snd that the town will be destroyed when, all of a sudden, it’s Nicholas who’s yelling that they have to do something. Because despite all the noise Nicholas makes about self-sacrifice and calling Vash a weirdo, he’s directly inspired by his energy, which is proven correct when Vash is the first one to side with him.

Then, somehow despite the odds, the two of them manage to work together to stop the ion cannon. Which should have been impossible. And because of this, Nicholas is finally willing to give Vash the chance to take the lead on things.

When Vash and Wolfwood discuss their plan to save Hopeland, and after they argue about which method is the correct one, the conversation they have is probably the clearest depiction of Nicholas’ inner struggle:

Nicholas: Have it your way. Just for today. I do owe you one… but if the orphanage doesn’t survive this, I’ll hurt you so bad you’ll wish you were dead before I kill you.

Vash: Wolfwood…

Nicholas: Shut up! I’m the Punisher! I’m not like you… I’m Nicholas the Punisher…

He murmurs the last line as though he’s trying to convince himself. He uses his persona as the Punisher almost like a mask, like a cat puffing up and hissing to deter predators. It’s a defense mechanism, and a trauma response. Except.. it still doesn’t work, because the entire time Vash is simply not listening. Regardless of what Nicholas says, Vash does not stop fighting Nicholas on the title that was forced on him by the EoM and, in fact, blatantly rejects it. And the moment Nicholas finishes speaking, when he declares himself to be the Punisher, the episode’s title card finally appears: Wolfwood.

It's a direct representation of this panel of Nicholas' inner monologue from the manga:

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Nicholas and Vash’s roles as each other’s complements is emphasized very deliberately when the two work to stop the sand steamer from smashing into Hopeland. These screenshots occur one directly after the other:

Another detail the team mentioned often during the interview was attention to use of color. In color theory, blue and orange are complementary colors: hues that are opposite each other on the color wheel but, when used together, come together to create harmony and balance. Additionally, Vash is the character typically associated with warm hues, while Nicholas is paired with colder ones; with the colors flipped, it’s almost as if they are literally mirror images of each other.

The two are in the same position, in the middle of similar actions, both drawing strength from that which makes them “other” in order to work together to protect a common goal. And once again, miraculously, they succeed, able to do together what neither could ever have done together.

This mirror motif is even clearer when comparing these respective scenes from each of their respective backstory episodes:

For Nicholas and Vash, on top of sharing such a crucial common thread in their backstories, often in the show they are seen together, either side by side or back to back. Often they’re shown doing the same thing at the same time, almost as though they’re moving as one. And they consistently save each other over and over again, with Nicholas acting to save Vash physically, and Vash working to protect Nicholas’ psyche. Vash refuses to let anyone continue to see themselves as a monster, as lesser than, in much the same way Nicholas refuses to let anyone else be used as one.

They are a pair, a unit working together to create a force that is stronger than the sum of its parts.

They are both “other”, they are both different, and they both seek to protect the things they love and care about despite the excruciating pain it can put them through.

Nicholas and Vash’s entite dynamic is basically “I don’t understand you, but I recognize you. I recognize myself in you. And somehow, that’s enough for me to trust you.”

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So with all this in mind, here is how I’ve come to understand Nicholas’ arc throughout tristamp:

When we first meet Nicholas D. Wolfwood we meet a weary man longing for death to save him, longing to be free from the purposelessness of his life but knowing the hope is futile. He works for the Eye of Michael as an assassin against his will and has for God knows how long. Not only is he no longer a priest, but he’s no longer religious at all, having no belief in God at all and a particular disdain for the false promises and hopes of salvation that are portrayed by it. He doesn’t care about the clothes he wears, whether he looks messy, whether it’s suited for the desert, because he literally doesn’t care about anything, really. He has no home, and can never go back to the orphanage— there’s likely no one left there that he knows anyway, and even of there were, they wouldn’t recognize the monster he’s become. Nicholas is tired, he’s angry, he’s potentially depressed. He fights impractically, sometimes leaving himself open to attacks he could probably block with his Punisher, but he just doesn’t care. He’s just here to do his job, which is to escort his piece of shit CEO’s assumedly equally piece of shit brother to him so they can destroy the world together and he can hopefully die off in peace.

Until he actually meets Vash, and he’s… really fucking weird. He’s dumb and naive and acts like he knows Nicholas on some deep level after they’ve just met, but… he’s not a bad guy. Just another crybaby who doesn’t understand the world. He can see the Punisher and not be frightened by it. That means something, means enough that he feels that he can introduce himself now. He still doesn’t know how to handle kindness, so he deflects whenever it’s shown to him, making irreverent jokes and being annoying in order push people away. But then he meets Rollo and has a flashback to himself. He learns that Vash is no stranger to false promises, has sold the same thing to the kid who ended up just like him, and yeah, Vash is no better than the EoM. He talks a big game but doesn’t actually know anything. Nicholas kills Rollo out of mercy because it’s what he wishes could be done to him; every day of living his life is torture.

But then his hometown and childhood best friend are suddenly in danger. He’d completely forgotten what it felt like to have something to lose, to protect. And without planning for it, Vash also becomes something to protect, because even if he doesn’t act like it, Nicholas desperately wants to believe in him. He doesn’t want the EoM to be right. But the feeling of having something to protect is terrifying, because it means you have something to lose. Nicholas gets incredibly stressed out by this, because it’s been so long that he doesn’t even remember what it feels like. But it’s enough to get him, for likely the first time in a very long time, to hope. And it’s Vash who helps him so that he’s able to hang on to that hope for a little while longer.

He still can’t get too excited, because he hasn’t actually finished his job yet. Before he does, though, he sees Vash’s scars (which was a deliberate choice, as in both the manga AND the og anime this scene went to the girls) and wow, if it weren’t for the regenerative properties of the drug, he would likely look the same. He drops Vash off with Knives and knows that Vash will likely be killed, but he’s also expecting to die himself in the fallout, so it doesn’t matter, really. Except for some reason, it does a bit. And then, yet again, Vash miraculously doesn’t die, and in fact changes the game and actually looks like he might stand a chance against Knives, and is clearly willing to die to do it.

And then July is destroyed. But, miraculously, Nicholas isn’t dead. He still finished the contract, but now… now what?

The show began with Nicholas at his lowest, and ends with Vash at his lowest point. And Nicholas owes him one.

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INCREDIBLY long story short, it really is clear that they weren’t kidding, the team really drew SO MUCH inspiration from the themes trimax it’s unbelievable and I really really think we’re in for something incredible during the second phase. I also think it’s gonna hurt like a bitch.

#trigun stampede #trigun #trigun 2023 #nicholas d. wolfwood #nicholas the punisher #tristamp #tristamp wolfwood #vash the stampede #tristamp vash #this had no reason being this long but fuck it we ball and i was off work and had the time anyway #neurodivergency go brrr ig idk but like i really haven’t seen anyone mention any of this #and like it really is entirely possible someone did but like i Need to discuss it

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the-conversation-pod · 5 months

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Let's Go, Lesbians! (A Japanese GL Episode)

And we're back! This week we're back with @ginnymoonbeam to talk about Toxic Yuri in Chaser Game W and Food Yuri in She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat. Join us as we talk about pouring champagne on your ex's head, slapping your mean boss and her big ass red outfit into next week, choosing yourself over your cruel family, becoming the best gay you can be, and marshmallow parties.

Also, because we did not talk about it in the recording, we want to repost Rina Sawayama's Chosen Family song because this scene was so powerful in SLTCSLTE.

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Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Welcome 00:01:15 - Introduction 00:02:45 - Chaser Game W: A Flop 00:18:31 - She Loves To Cook, and She Loves To Eat 00:23:14 - SLTCSLTE: The Women 00:34:18 - SLTCSLTE: Yako and The New House 00:39:17 - SLTCSLTE: The Food and Nagumo 00:43:02 - SLTCSLTE: Depictions of Intimacy 00:50:53 - SLTCSLTE Ratings and Outro

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

We will endeavor to make the transcripts available when the episodes launch, and it is our goal to make them available for past episodes (Coming soon thanks to @wen-kexing-apologist). When transcripts are available, we will attach them to the episode post (like this one) and put the transcript behind a Read More cut to cut down on scrolling.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re your drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Introduction

Ben

And we're back. This week, we're talking about lesbians, finally! And we brought a friend along.

NiNi

Say hi Ginny.

Ginny

Hello!

NiNi

Ginny is here with us and we are going to talk two Japanese GLs, Chaser Game W and She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat.

Ben, what did you think, like, sort of overarching about these two before we delve into the nitty gritty?

Ben

I thought Chaser Game W gave us a lot to anticipate early on, and unfortunately went in the direction we did not want it to go. Ended up being kind of a mess toward the end? I did not end up walking away too happy with it.

With She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat season 2, this time we had twenty 15-minute episodes and they had things to do and say with that time and I have a lot of things to say about that show. [laughs]

NiNi

Ginny, what are your overarching thoughts about these two shows?

Ginny

I had high hopes for Chaser Game W because I always want more toxic lesbians. [NiNi laughs] I want to see the girls get to be messy, I want to see complicated dynamics. And I did really enjoy the first couple episodes, but it kind of felt like the characterizations really fell apart as the series progressed, which was a big disappointment.

She Loves to Cook and She Loves to Eat was a delight. Every time I sat down to watch it, my heart was full and happy and warm.

00:02:45 - Chaser Game W: A Flop

NiNi

We always go from worst to first on this show, so let's start with Chaser Game W.

Ben, what is Chaser Game W about?

Ben

Chaser Game W is about a team of women at a game development studio in Japan who have been contracted to develop basically a demo for a GL adaptation, by a Chinese company named Vincent. It gets complicated by their project manager from the Chinese team, who clearly has beef with one of their team members and just spends most of the early show fucking with her because she's mad that they broke up in college. And then a bunch of other shit happens that is kind of weird.

NiNi

Okay, that's a hell of a description [laughs].

Ben

I'm sorry! Like, it starts off being a show that looks like it's playing into the complex dynamics about workplace power and possibly sexual harassment, and then kind of loses its way because it wants to be this mess of a story about lesbians with families and the difficult choices they have to make, and where do the husbands and children fit in this, and how does this play into career expectations? Bosses who might also be queer but evil queers?

And it's not necessarily a very coherent experience. There's a lot of ideas that sound good when you describe them to people, but in practice really weren't that satisfying to watch. This was not the Japanese GL experience I was hoping for.

NiNi

Ginny, what about you? What are your thoughts on Chaser Game W?

Ginny

It did seem like it was setting up to have some messages about not only the sexuality components, but also things about women in the workplace and being a mother and balancing those expectations… dealing with sexual harassment… all of that. But it didn't end up saying much that was meaningful to me about it, it just was like, ‘these are issues!’ If you try to draw any kind of conclusion from what the show is doing, you end up with some really messy messages.

The way that the evil queer boss came in was so funny to me. One of the selling points of this show is this strong femdom, woman in power exacting humiliation dynamic. But halfway through the show, we're resolving the relationship between the two women, so Fuyu, our previous femdom power boss, is not going to be that anymore. So we have to bring in a new one — and it just did not work for me.

NiNi

It was the dom getting dommed. It was like an inception of domming. It was a little strange. There were definitely some Chinese-Japanese dynamics in there. I don't have the cultural competency to pick up on entirely what they were doing, but it was pretty clear from the way that the show was operating. I don't know if it's stereotype, but it was clear that there was something going on there; my cultural competency in this area is not enough to figure out exactly what was going on there.

Ben

It was kind of weird seeing a Japanese show complaining about unrealistic expectations of Chinese developers? This is not a uniquely Chinese problem.

NiNi

I feel like it being set in gaming almost didn't matter to that side of things? They wanted to have this difference the show sees in working cultures be stark and to say something about that difference. But the supposed center of this, aside from the game and the development of the game, is a relationship between Fuyu and Itsuki. It's an extremely convoluted central story that just seems to serve as an excuse for why Fuyu, when she comes back to Japan, hates Itsuki so much.

The writing feels slightly unnecessarily complicated, but I actually rather enjoyed quite a lot of bits of this. I enjoyed, for example, the direction. I thought the camera was very assured, I thought it was very clear. I don't know if this is an original story or if it's coming from manga, but the direction is very very clear to me. I really enjoyed watching the camera move. The shots are really effective. But the story itself? It's not like I thought necessarily that… the story was badly told? I'm just not sure that it was the story that I wanted. Where we're going in the beginning with Fuyu, a mean lesbian comes back and is mean to her ex-girlfriend, I felt like, okay, that's where we're going. And then, suddenly, Fuyu is married and Fuyu has a daughter and there's all this stuff around the husband and Fuyu’s feelings, or not-feelings, about the husband. It got a little muddy.

But even with all of that, I think I probably enjoyed it more than you guys did. And I think part of the reason is that I binged it? So I didn't sit with a lot of these feelings or a lot of the confusion for very long.

Ben

It was not a fun week to week watch. As it started to deviate and get lost in itself, it was not fun to be like, 'oh right, this is where we were, all right, let's go and see how this week goes. Ohh… no. Okay.'

You asked about whether it's original or an adaptation. It is an adaptation. The original work is about power harassment, but I believe Itsuki’s character is a man? A lot about the show made sense once we realized that it was not an original queer story being adapted. A lot of it felt really tacked on to justify the drama and not really something that the writing really contextualized or dwelled on, at all.

Ginny

There were a lot of big character turns and big decisions made without a lot of grounding in why this character would make this choice. Once the mystery of their past is explained, you do understand why they reconcile suddenly, but then all of their choices afterwards just felt baffling to me. I'm not getting any kind of character journey. The show is like, well, this happens now, and then this happens now, and then they do this thing that you didn't expect. And I want to know why!

NiNi

I… feel like in some bits I was cottoning onto it, and then in some bits I was not. For example, when Itsuki starts to take care of Fuyu’s daughter, when she comes over and realizes that the husband's left and her daughter needs taking care of. I followed that bit of the character journey. I understood in some ways why, when the husband came back, Fuyu felt maybe guilty?

There was also, like, a little thing which I was really surprised didn't go anywhere. Early in the show the husband was video chatting with, I think his mother. And she says something like, 'you know, you have to be good to Fuyu. You're so lacking, and she is with you anyway.' that made me think that their marriage was lavender? I genuinely thought that they had some kind of arrangement or agreement — and then to find out later down the line that the husband actually was in love with her and was jealous of the thing that she had with Itsuki? That came out of nowhere for me. And then everything that followed on from there kind of didn't track, almost.

Did either of you get that feeling initially from the husband and were surprised or was that just me?

Ginny

My sense was that the husband had been perceived as not a good marriage prospect. Probably it was not earning a lot of money and had other loserish qualities or something. So my sense from the conversation was that that was what she was talking about. I certainly didn't ever get the sense that he was in love with her, exactly? Even when he's upset, it felt more to me kind of about pride. You can't have your wife sleeping around. That's an embarrassment. I don't think there were any deep feelings in that marriage.

NiNi

I don't even think either of them really had extremely deep feelings for their daughter. Like I think Fuyu loves her daughter, but in a distracted kind of way, almost? The only depth of feeling that I felt anywhere was between Fuyu and Itsuki, and even that was tied up in all this anger and bitterness and guilt and whatever else. That's a direction to go in for sure, but it really didn't make me understand why they wanted to be together, and then why they decided not to be together… and then in the end, why Fuyu comes back out of nowhere.

It's all muddled and mixed for me, especially the closer that we get to the end. But like I said, I don't think that I had as bad a time with it as other people might have.

Ben

I had a very bad time. [Ben and NiNi laugh]

This show was aggravating. We've been talking about this a lot on the show lately about how much work we think we should do for a show to like, meet them emotionally, where they're trying to take us. There are times when either the writing or the performance doesn't necessarily get you all the way there? And you kind of have to just feel it for the show. But this show just does not feel complete. There are a bunch of ideas that are fine on their own, like, ‘and then she comes in here and then she pours a fucking champagne on her head.’ That's an unhinged lesbian behavior that I have seen happen in person! So like, I totally believed that.

NiNi

Oh yeah.

Ben

But then Fuyu’s turn where she’s suddenly nice to other women in the company that they're in and stops being a huge dick to the other moms, that just doesn't really track? Like, what changed in that moment? I don't really know how we went there. They had her suddenly start being nice to them so they could be on the same team against Big Red.

NiNi

I'm so mad that you called her Big Red, but it kinda works. [Ben and NiNi laugh] I'm not gonna call her anything except Big Red now.

Ben

I did not remember what her character name was. Her name was Big Red.

Ginny

That's her name now, yep [laughs].

Ben

Like it was funny when Itsuki was like, 'Fuck off, Big Red' and knocked her ass down. [all laugh]

All these moments are like, well, that was amusing on its own, but it doesn't really come together as a coherent story unto itself. There’s this huge branching point later on where it's basically the supporting cast trying to seduce a guy to give them information to save the game, and that's happening separately from the drama with Itsuki, Fuyu, Fuyu’s husband, Big Red and all the drama going on there.

NiNi

I want to talk a little bit about the actual game development plot, because that stuff was wild. They're preparing whatever they have to do to develop this game, and along the way they're going through literal sexual harassment. There's a point in time that they're trying to get information from this artist. And this guy is a caricature of a sexual harasser, like at one point there are five of these female game developers in his house, and they're literally peeling this guy off of each other as he gropes them. And I'm just like, is this normal or is this exaggerated? I don't even know?

Ben

Actually, it felt like most of that was actually normal.

NiNi

That is terrifying.

Ben

The drama with the team felt pretty straightforward for me. You had women in the team having varied responses to the sexual harassment. One of them was like, 'I will absolutely not compromise myself and use sex to get ahead' and another one was like, 'I will, I got this for us.' [Ben and NiNi laugh] I thought that was fine. I didn't mind there being a character who is willing to use men's desire to advance her goals and her team’s goals. I liked that it wasn't required only for her to do that, that there were other people who didn't want to do it that way accomplishing things for their team. The up and down of, ‘is this game going to get developed or not, the expectations of our client keep changing, it seems to be for reasons well beyond us and other drama’ — that felt fairly normal for trying to get any sort of major creative endeavor with the expensive team off the ground. Most of the game development stuff tracked normally for me. Even the whole plot line about poaching talent and then dumping talent: that is a real problem right now. That sort of stuff mostly tracked for me. I wasn't that fussed about the game development stuff and the workplace conditions that they were working under.

It was the stuff about Fuyu and Itsuki's relationship and the motivations around them romantically, and other characters’ reactions to it, that is where I struggled the most with this. It wasn't a show that left you in a cool place at the end of an episode and picked up in a great place with the next episode. Spending two months watching this was not a great experience.

NiNi

I think my rating’s definitely going to be higher than you guys, so I'll go first.

Ben

Okay.

NiNi

I'm gonna say 7. To me, bits are cool and I can follow generally where this is going, and the bits that I thought were weird were not offensive. It wasn’t very good, but it wasn't terrible.

Ben

Ginny?

Ginny

I gave it a 5.5. 6 is my mad-I-watched-it threshold. Anything 6 or higher might be very bad, but I'm not mad I watched it. Below a 6 I'm kind of mad that I watched it. That's where this one landed for me.

Fuyu was very beautiful, and I did enjoy watching her every week. But when that's the nicest thing I have to say about a show, it's not good.

Ben

It gave this a 4. It is not recommended. I don't think this is a good lesbian story. I don't think this is a good game development story. I don't think it's a good workplace story. It is a mess. This was developed by the same person who made His the movie, so I am very confused how we ended up with something that absolutely failed on the queer front like this. I do not get it. When this show was confused, it lands on the wrong side of the coin a lot. And it felt like at the very last five minutes they were doing a shit ton of clean up. I don't think this show is worthwhile.

NiNi

That's gonna land us somewhere in the 5ish range overall?

Ben

Round it down, because it sucks! [all laugh] It gets a 5 from The Conversation.

NiNi

So that is officially a chop.

00:18:31 - She Loves To Cook, and She Loves To Eat

NiNi

All right. So we're gonna leave that behind and we're going to move on to She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat.

Ben, give us the synopsis. What is She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat about?

Ben

Okay, let me be much nicer now because this is one of my favorite shows now. So, [laughs] She Loves to Cook, and She Loves to Eat is like the lesbian neighbor of What Did You Eat Yesterday? We have a young woman who's a programmer. She feels like she's like late 20s, early 30s. Her name is Nomoto. She runs like a food account on Instagram, and whenever she's in a bad mood and needs to work through some stuff, she ends up making too much food, and she has a small appetite, so it goes to waste. She has a neighbor who is a taller, bigger woman, and on a whim one night she invites her over to share food with her. And this is the beginning of their friendship that eventually becomes a more serious relationship.

Second season picks up with twice as many episodes, and boy did they need them. We spend this season with Nomoto and Kasuga befriending their new, younger woman neighbor. Nomoto becomes a full-time employee at her work and develops a more reliable friendship with Sayama. She also befriends her Twitter friend Yako, who is basically one of us. She loves her stories, she loves her little food, and she loves hearing about other people's drama and poking them to get their shit together. I love her so much.

It was a really delightful season watching these two grow closer, figure out what their relationship was going to be, and develop that into more as they dealt with some of their real personal and professional issues. I really, truly loved the season.

Ginny, you were fairly recent to watching this, so you watched the first and second season basically as one dedicated viewing experience. What was your experience engaging with this for the first time in the last month or so?

Ginny

It was very fun. I did this as my unwinding as I was moving in with my girlfriend who is the loves to eat in our relationship, where I'm the loves to cook. So it was a lovely experience. The two seasons flow so seamlessly into each other. Season 2 picks up right where season 1 left off so I'm kind of glad I did it this way. I think I might have been a little frustrated at the end of season 1, especially having to wait and not knowing if we'd get more, because they don't entirely confirm their relationship by the end of that? It's understood that they're very important to each other and they have this very meaningful place in each other's lives, celebrating holidays together, but they don't even start to have conversations about what their relationship is until we're a little ways into season 2. So I'm glad that I got to watch it all unfold as a single story.

So many details of, just the way that that develops between them felt so realistic to journeys that I've seen between two women who are close friends and realize that they might have romantic feelings for each other. All of the angsting you do about that, and the 'what does this mean' and the 'what does it even mean to love someone romantically instead of as just this very special, most importantest friend in the world,' — just so many little details were perfectly done and extremely relatable. It was just gorgeous.

Ben

NiNi, since you watched the first season and angsted with the rest of us about whether or not it was going to come back, and whether or not that second season was gonna be good, what were your overall impressions of the second season after you walked away from it?

NiNi

I loved it, but I knew I was going to love it. I had some angst in the middle of the season that we're probably gonna get to, not bad angst. Just, ‘oh, I wonder if they're doing this thing that I think that they're doing.’ But I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I love so much how the show expands in this season. The first season is very tightly focused, mostly on Nomoto and Kasuga, whereas this season expands outward to show you some of the other people in their life and show you them developing their relationships with these other people, some new, some not. I always love stories that show you the life that these people are living. So I thoroughly enjoyed this season, had a great time with it.

00:23:14 - SLTCSLTE: The Women

Ben

There were a lot of presentations of various women's issues that played out this season. Do the two of you have particular storylines that you especially enjoyed, or connected to?

Ginny

I love Nagumo's story. I think the one I connected to most was probably Kasuga, but I thought bringing in Nagumo as someone who could receive some mentorship from these two women and also [laughs] kind of help coach Kasuga through her feelings revelation, and relationship transition… it was a beautiful relationship and a wonderful addition, and the way that her character brings a different perspective on the whole nature of food and communal eating was also just a gorgeous touch.

Ben

What about you, NiNi? Did you have a particular plot line that you enjoyed or connected to?

NiNi

We got some stuff on the fringes about Sayama trying to date and looking to potentially get married, realizing and talking to Nomoto that she can't get married if she wants to, and then that leading Sayama to think about whether she even wants to get married. That resonated in a particular kind of way. It was a quiet little side runner, it didn't take up a lot of space in the story, but it did hit me. We end the season without really an answer from Sayama on that, but the fact that she started thinking about it? That resonated with me, for sure.

Ben

What I love about Sayama as a straight character in this narrative is: queer people don't fit the heterosexual mold, and loving queer people forces you to reckon with why we don't. And then that can often open up things for you, as well. I really loved her apology scene with Nomoto. Recognizing that her working through her own ambivalence about marriage is dismissive of the fact that it's not even an option available for Nomoto.

Ginny

You also have Kasuga's coworker, who's older and is getting a divorce after her children have grown up. Getting a divorce is extremely liberating for her. It really does show this kind of 360 view of heterosexual marriage not necessarily being right for all heterosexual women.

Ben

I think it's notable that when they show multiple older women working at this grocery store, they're all like, 'mm-mm, divorce was the right call for me, because I don't think it's right that I'm expected to take care of my husband's family and everybody else does nothing, and that's gonna be my entire existence.' And I love how explicit she was, she told Kasuga straight up: if you were my own daughter, who I do have, I would tell her the same thing, and I would say please live your life. Do not sacrifice your life for a bunch of other people who do not appreciate what you want for your life. Because Kasuga decided to sever ties with her family, because they did not respect her and they wanted her to just take care of them, and sacrifice anything she wanted for her life. It was really lovely that the show went out of its way to be explicit about that.

NiNi

Since we're already sort of diving into it, let's lean into that storyline. Kasuga left home a long time ago and decided to live her life. Kasuga has a brother who is the favored child, but Kasuga’s brother does nothing. Now Kasuga's parents are older and ill, and her grandparents are older and ill and need taking care of. And so Kasuga's dad has started looking for her now. He's like, 'Well, you're not married, whatever you're doing isn't important, you gotta come home and take care of everybody.' It only comes to her doorstep because her aunt gives her father both her number and address, because 'oh, you’re a family, you shouldn’t not talk to each other.' Her aunt thinks she's doing the right thing, but this is definitely not the right thing for Kasuga. Kasuga's father has never appreciated her as a person, has never cared about her as a person, has only focused on his son. And now he wants Kasuga to take care of him essentially until he dies. Kasuga really struggles with this. She wonders, is this my responsibility? Is this something that I have to do? Is she a bad daughter if she doesn't do this? What does this mean for her? Fujita tells her, 'Look, if you were my daughter, I would tell you do not go. You don't have a responsibility to give up your life for somebody else.'

All the conversations that Kasuga has with her father, she has them in her car. She does not talk to him when she is in her house, her safe space? She does not speak to her father in there. When she has decided that she's not going home, not just not going home, but never going home again, she sits in the car and has the conversation where she tells him, 'I'm not ever coming home. Don't contact me again.' And then she goes from the car straight to Nomoto. And Nomoto gets so furious on her behalf that she starts to cry. She's like, 'I can't believe that this man made you feel this way about yourself. He's a horrible person.' Basically, everything that Kasuga needed to hear, she got from Nomoto in that moment.

I am an eldest daughter. I have a fantastic relationship with my family. And any caregiving I do is of my own volition, and I am happy to do it. It is still tiring. It is still exhausting. Even when it is received with gratitude and happiness and love, it is hard to do. If you have to take care of people who don't care about you? You can feel like you're dying. I am certain about it. That expectation being placed on you is hard enough. To do it for people [who] do not love you — because I do not think Kasuga’s father loves her — is impossible. And so I had a lot of feelings about it while it was happening, but watching her say, 'No, I am not going to just let go of my entire life and everything that I want for this person.'

And then to have Fujita tell her, 'if you were my daughter,' which releases her from that burden of thinking about her mother — because that's the other part of the guilt that she's feeling. Not necessarily guilt towards her father, but the fact that if she doesn't come home, her mother's gonna have to do all of this. And she thinks about her mother all the time. It's just, it's so much. It's so deep. It's so intense. It's so delicious. And it's not what you expect to get out of a story that's told in little 15-minute episodes! It really isn't.

Ginny

I'm also an eldest daughter and feel so much of that. I spent my childhood, really, like Kasuga, very aware that there were a lot of things I was expected to give up. The way that that sinks into your brain… you just feel like, 'I am worth what I can do for people.'

What struck me the most in that conversation with Nomoto when Kasuga first tells her what she's done, is Nomoto begs her to keep living her life here where she's thriving, and to keep being happy. Through their whole relationship, Nomoto has taken such joy in Kasuga’s love of eating and just celebrated that this gives you pleasure and you're taking pleasure, and that's a wonderful thing. And in this moment, she kind of expands it to Kasuga's whole life. And she says, please don't ever go somewhere where you can't thrive, where you can't feel joy, where you can't feel loved, and yourself. To hear someone say that? I think I did cry in that scene. You need to hear someone say that. Someone who grew up like Kasuga needs someone who loves you begging you to take care of yourself and to do what brings you joy. The heart of their relationship and what draws them together is how deeply Nomoto celebrates Kasuga taking care of herself and being taken care of and experiencing pleasure. It's beautiful.

Ben

I really enjoyed the way that continued in the whole strawberry debacle.

NiNi

[laughs] The strawberry thing. It was so funny. [Ginny laughs] It was so cute, too. It was really cute. This is after they've started dating, but their relationship hasn't changed very much. And so she asked Nagumo, is there something that she should be doing? Which I found adorable.

Ginny

It's so real.

Ben

It's funny, too, because Nagumo admits she doesn't have much experience either [Ginny laughs], and is like, 'You could, like, go do things you both like doing? Together? That sounds right.' [all laugh]

NiNi

It’s so funny. And that's when she sees this flyer for the strawberry picking. And she's like, 'Oh, okay, I like strawberry picking. I should ask Nomoto to go strawberry picking with me. That's like the kind of thing that people do when they're in relationships, right?'

Ben

'That's, like, a food thing. She likes to make food. This might be fun!' Kasuga doesn't really say what she wants to do, she just hands it to Nomoto and is like, 'Hey, I thought this might be fun for us to do' and Nomoto’s like, 'Oh, yeah, that sounds great. We can maybe go vegetable picking and then make some stuff afterwards.' And Kasuga doesn't really speak up about what she maybe wanted.

Late in the day Nomoto realizes Kasuga maybe wanted to go check out a restaurant in the area, and wanted to maybe do strawberry picking instead. And Nomoto ends up feeling so bad about this, feeling like she was not really receptive to what Kasuga actually wanted, and like she was steamrolling her. This plays out across almost two or three episodes, but the culmination is Nomoto saying very clearly to Kasuga, 'I want you to be selfish with me. I want you to feel like you can want things and express them. It's really important to me that you are doing the things you enjoy.'

Ginny

And Kasuga admits that that's hard for her. Another moment that rang so true for me, for both of them.

Ben

So much of their relationship is Nomoto getting intense pleasure [laughs] out of watching Kasuga enjoy herself.

00:34:18 - SLTCSLTE: Yako and The New House

Ben

I'd like to talk about my favorite character of the season.

NiNi

Ben wants to talk about Yako. Let's go.

Ben

Yako is the best thing that has happened to BL and GL in the last two years. [laughs]

NiNi

She's really just like us. [laughs]

Ben

No character’s been a better audience stand in than an asexual lesbian enjoying her wine and her takeout, watching gay movies with other girls, and then hearing about their relationship drama and giving completely reasonable advice by just asking questions.

Ginny

Best life.

Ben

I love her so much. She is everything that I am trying to be every day. [NiNi laughs] And she's good at it! [laughs] She never tells anybody, 'Just do it.' She's just like, 'What are you feeling? How do you feel if you don't do it? Well, there you go.’

And then they have the curry party? That looked like so much fun. They all go over to Yako's house and meet her properly. Nomoto and Kasuga take Nagumo with them. And they make a bunch of different curry, and naan, and some fancy juice, and they have themselves a good-ass time. And this leads to Yako becoming friends with Nagumo, and she ends up becoming a confidante to Nagumo as well. She recognizes after the girls reveal they're gonna move out that somebody should check on Nagumo, who has probably gotten used to having two really reliable neighbors who care about her, and how Nagumo might be anxious about saying, like, she misses them and still wants to see them. Even as Nagumo admits, moving out is the right call for them, I love that Yako gave Nagumo space to admit that she was a bit bummed that she was gonna not be living next to two solid friends anymore.

I love Yako so much. She is in competition for blorbo of the year.

NiNi

Yako has the best ideas for parties, too, like the first time she had the watch party with Nomoto, they've both got snacks and drinks, and they're talking about what they've got for their snacks and their drinks and then they watch a lesbian movie and they cry. [Ben and Ginny laugh] It’s so good. Literally, Yako is really just like us.

The only thing I'm sad about in this entire season is that Sayama hasn't yet become a part of this whole little group that they have, but she will. I know she will.

Ben

They just moved in together. They got a big space. There's room for Fujita and Sayama to show up for another party they're gonna have. These two could host all six major female characters at their new place.

Let's talk about the new place while we're here. Where…?

[all laugh]

NiNi

Go ahead. I know you want to.

Ben

I love Kasuga. I love everything about her. I love her big chair, I love her big bed, I love her big TV. I need to know where these things are going to go in the new space. [NiNi laughs] Nomoto is totally fine to just use her iPad as her fill-in device for all of her tech needs and entertainment needs. I understand Kasuga. When I moved out, I got myself two big-ass TVs! I need to know where this goes in their new space.

NiNi

[laughs] Doing it real big, right?

Ben

Mhmm! Her car real big. Shoes real big. TV real big. Everything real big.

NiNi

We can talk a little bit about the new space. It looks really good. I like the way that it feels like both of them, which is exactly what you want in a place where you’re gonna be moving in together. But can we just talk about how U-Haul lesbian it is of them to get together and immediately start talking about moving in together?

Ginny

Hang on, they started talking about moving in together [Ben laughs] and then got together. That was the order! [NiNi laughs] They were like—

NiNi

That is true, that is fair.

Ginny

—'I’m gonna move.'

'Oh my God. I can't bear the thought of you leaving, but I understand why you have to.'

'Well, it's okay ‘cause I was going to ask if you wanted to move in. Also, are we in love with each other?'

Like, that was the conversation. [NiNi laughs]

Ben

'And we finally picked a place to live. Do you wanna make out for the first time?'

NiNi

[laughs] And the other good part of it is that before any of this, they somehow adopted a child together.

Ben

Right?

Ginny

Yeah! This all tracks. This is all very typical.

NiNi

Mmhmm. This felt like the correct order of things for lesbians.

00:39:17 - SLTCSLTE: The Food and Nagumo

NiNi

Okay, we need to talk about food.

Ben

Okay.

NiNi

Because Ben started talking about the curry party and I got excited.

Ben

I got hungry, I need to go make food after this. [Ben and Ginny laugh]

NiNi

We didn't even talk yet about the takoyaki party. I am not a huge fan of takoyaki, but that looked really good.

Ben

All right, as we go into the food, let's talk about Nagumo's eating disorder, because I think that this is one of my favorite food plots in a food show in a long time.

NiNi

One of the things about these food shows is that it's about the communal experience of food. Nagumo has a social anxiety disorder where she can't eat in front of other people. The way that this is brought to the surface, and then the way that Kasuga and Nomoto figure out how to include her in the communal experience without trying to force her to eat or making it an anxious space for her where other people are eating… There's something about Kasuga that just reads incredibly reliable from the off. So when Nagumo first meets Kasuga, she very quickly gets very comfortable and feels like she can tell this woman anything. And Kasuga is just so forthright and so understanding about things, that when Nagumo tells her, you know, 'I really can't eat in front of other people,' the first thing she asks her is 'oh, well, can you drink something? Can I make you a cup of tea?' And that sort of becomes a jumping off point for the way that they interact when they're having these communal experiences around food, and the way that Kasuga explains to other people for Nagumo, but without giving too many details of Nagumo's private business. The way that these women make a comfortable space for her to still have the community of meals together without forcing her to eat, drives Nagumo to say, 'I want to go and get myself treated because I want to be able to eat with these women, because I care about them.'

Ben

I really love the arc of that. In a show about two people bonding over food, they met somebody who they couldn't necessarily do that with right away, they had to work into it. And I love the way that they slowly built that out — like the donut party was so satisfying.

NiNi

Donut party was fantastic.

Ben

There’s the donut party. There's the marshmallow party.

NiNi

Don't get me started on Nomoto and her, like, zoning out thinking about Kasuga with these marshmallows. [laughs] It was almost erotic but not in a male gaze erotic kind of way. She's got a comically large number of bags of marshmallows in Nomoto’s mind that she's hugging to her, and then she starts eating the marshmallows with a smile on her face. [laughs] All this is happening in Nomoto’s imagination and I'm just like, 'Yes, girl. Yeah, I understand what is happening to you right now.' [laughs] She's zoning out thinking about Kasuga and these marshmallows and I am cracking up. I'm having a whale of a—Oh, it's so good.

Okay. I'm gonna get over Kasuga and marshmallows, but [laughs] not immediately. So good, so funny. No notes.

00:43:02 - SLTCSLTE: Depictions of Intimacy

Ben

You had a little bit of hesitation in the middle of the second season. Do you want to talk about that on the show? And do you feel resolved by the way they played it out?

NiNi

Not resolved, but more… comforted, I guess. Part of the agita, I think that I was having, is that I was working through myself. Yako and Nomoto are watching these lesbian films. Yako is introducing Nomoto to these lesbian movies, and they're watching them together. And Nomoto is saying she's watching these movies and all these women are so passionate, and she knows that she likes Kasuga in a romantic way, but she doesn't think that she has these passionate feelings like these women in these films. That's when Yako tells her, 'Well, you know, I'm asexual, this is how I feel about these things.'

And in the middle of the season when this is happening, I had a bit of a moment where I'm just like, okay, is it that they're doing this purity thing where it's fine to be a lesbian if you don't have sex or sexual feelings? It was something that I was worried about. I think it was a little bit of burden of representation stuff that I was maybe putting on the show? That I felt like it was important to show female sexuality as being good and okay and fine, and not to wrap female sexuality and women loving women up in this thing of it being somehow chaste and pure. That was something that was coming from my own thoughts about it. There's not a lot of ace spectrum rep out there in terms of media and dramas in this field, so intellectually I felt like, oh, well, this is fine. But emotionally, I was having a hard time with. Intellectually, I'm like, okay, yes, if it is that this is an ace lesbian story, this is fine because there's not a lot of representation of that, either. But then I was also, like, feeling that even if it was ace lesbian representation, it was being done in this weird binary where you're either sexual or you're not, when acespec is just a whole spectrum of things. I was getting tied up in my own feelings about a lot of this, and it was giving me a little bit of grief and a little bit of gripe.

But when we come down through the season and come down towards the end of the season, it starts to feel more like a journey of discovery, of Nomoto figuring out what labels that she would apply to herself that make her feel comfortable with the relationship, and understanding how she feels about Kasuga and in what ways they want to proceed with their relationship and the things that they want to try or not try, and having those conversations with Kasuga, as well. And that eased me in the way that I was feeling about it. I fully admit that I got tied up in my own feelings about this, because it didn't have anything to do with what the show was doing. It works out well. I feel comfortable and comforted by the way that the story goes down through to the end. I'm good with where they've decided to take Nomoto, and Nomoto and Kasuga’s relationship, and where they have hopefully paused, not stopped.

Ginny

I understand that feeling completely. I feel some kind of meta regret that the two lesbian shows we’re talking about, the horny kinky concept one was bad, and the very chaste, ace spectrum one was good. I would love more horny kinky concept lesbians that are also actually well done. But as you said, that's not a problem with this show as it is just sort of with the bigger media landscape, and the show is giving also voice to really important, very representative experiences.

I love where they land on the question of physical intimacy, because I was wondering what they were going to do having gotten so far into the season. They hardly ever touch each other. There is this sensuality in their relationship around food, and I don't think it functions as a metaphor or a substitute for sex — it's just a different kind and source of pleasure that is important to their relationship, and that's so cool and I love it! But I love where they end up on the question of touch. Kasuga saying, 'yes, I would like to try things out one by one with you.' That's such a lovely way to say, we don't know where this ends. We don't know how we're going to feel about it, but we trust each other enough and we want to explore together at whatever pace feels right for both of us.

Ben

I am less concerned, I think, with certain styles of Japanese shows delving into onscreen depictions of sex and sexuality because of the space those shows fill. Zenra Meshi, What Did You Eat Yesterday?, and this show. The ton of sensuality in the food stuff supports the thinking around sex and intimacy, and I'm really glad they had the hug and kiss scene to make sure that we didn't skip that? But I don't necessarily need to see it in the show, in the sense that I'm okay with just confirming that it's gonna happen, or it is happening. What I do need NHK and TV Tokyo to figure out is: how does the cast of this show meet the cast of What Did You Eat Yesterday? There has to be a way to get these two stories a crossover.

NiNi

It does feel like there needs to be a crossover between these two stories. The new place that they've moved into, I'm pretty sure it's in Shiro and Kenji's building, like it has to be. That's the only thing that makes any sense to me in my head. [laughs]

What you were saying about seeing it on screen, it's not necessarily that I need to see their physical intimacy on screen, or whether there is physical intimacy on screen. I just need to understand, I think, if it was something that they were even gonna talk about or discuss, or if it was something that they wanted or not wanted. I think that it's fine for me for them to have the conversation and say, 'Okay, let's figure this out.' And if that lands upon them not being physically intimate that's fine, if it lands up on them being physically intimate, that's fine, but I think what I was worried about, and maybe I shouldn't have been, was that they were not going to talk about it at all.

Ben

I'm very glad that they had a conversation about it before they moved out, and established that it is something that they want, even if it's something they're gonna have to figure it out.

NiNi

Most definitely, but let's move back to the part where they're moving into Shiro and Kenji's building, because I feel like somehow that has to happen. And I feel like somebody needs to slip Nishijima and Uchino a note that says, 'Hey. Y'all are good at making stuff happen. Make this happen, too. Find a way.'

Ben

It's just difficult because it's an NHK adaptation versus TV Tokyo and I don't know how that plays out because one is a for-profit broadcaster and the other is explicitly a public entity.

NiNi

Figure it out. [Ben and NiNi laugh] I don't care if it's a movie, I don't care if it's a special, I don't care what it is. They need to figure this out, because there's no way that these two shows are not existing in the same universe. They have to.

00:50:53 - SLTCSLTE Ratings and Outro

Ben

I think that's it. This show is excellent. I guess we should rate it. Let's go around.

Ginny, you're newest to this. What's your rating for this?

Ginny

I gave season one a 9 and season two a 10. Season one felt a little incomplete to me, but season two sewed it up. If I was rating them together, I would give them a 10 as a single experience.

Ben

What about you, NiNi?

NiNi

Why you even asking me? You know my answer. This is a 10.

Ben

It's a 10! 10s across the board. Go watch it right now and then when you're finished, go show it to a friend, and then make them show it to a friend. I'm not even kidding. This is excellent. This is going to have to get a new supercut for me on the show. I’m gonna have to mention this every goddamn recording we do after this. [Ginny and NiNi laugh]

NiNi

It's a good thing Ginny's here because now she goes, she's like, okay, so I'm looking for What Did You Eat Yesterday? and then She Loves to Cook, She Loves to Eat.

Ginny

Making notes.

Ben

It was really just so lovely. One of the things I really enjoy in my queer stories is realistic and believable-feeling friend groups around them. It's really important for me, not just that I believe in the integrity of the couple, but also the integrity of their network. And I really like when queer friend groups grow as a result of two other people finding something in each other, that was really important for me. And it's why this particular show is so special to me. I really love this show, so much. Please go watch it.

NiNi

And with that, that's all she wrote. That is going to wrap us up, say bye to the people.

Say bye Ginny!

Ginny

Bye!

NiNi

Say bye to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace.

#chaser game w #she loves to cook and she loves to eat #tsukuritai onna to tabetai onna #japanese gl #gl series #ben and nini's conversations #the conversation #lgbtq #podcast #spring series #spring 2024

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voidedsoul5 · 7 months

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OKAY HERE WE GO, ANALYSIS AND THEORY TIME.

Spoilers for the new TMP episode (Ep 8)

NOT ONLY did we get my babygirl back (Who definitely has something going on with him but we'll go back to that later) we also got another hint about one of my other working theories about Celia and this universe... I am losing my mind rn and I need someone to talk to about this even if it's just screaming to the internet void. More below cut. Split it because it's a semi-long post.

I think Gertrude is for SURE coming back at some point, literally no reason for her not to especially considering I don't think TMP team is going to pull the 'But this time she's actually just an innocent old lady' thing. It's cheap, and she likely knows stuff that will come up later when (I believe) she still has worked at the institute before it burned down due to her age. Plus, someone had to have cleared out those files.

Gerry is happy and it makes sense. Gerry in TMA was trying to be a kind person, but he'd witnessed too much and seen too much to be able to do that. In this world, if the fears didn't exist Mary would've likely not been AS deranged. OR mary might not have existed at all given Gertrude claimed Gerry as his grandson. Removing Mary, Gerry really doesn't have a reason to be so reserved and abrasive. HOWEVER. I think there's a possibility that isn't his actual personality. The happiness (as mentioned in the unofficial transcript) is maybe a bit too played up. I wouldn't mind if this is just how he was, a slightly erratic messy artist. But pairing him specifically WITH gertrude in this universe stood out to me. So here's my mini theory.-I'm not saying it's drugs, or Gertrude is casting black magic or something, but I do think she's doing something to keep Gerry out of this 'mess'. Even if that's just living with him and helping him have a normal life as a painter. Gertrude has always had a soft spot for gerry in TMA, in this universe where she's probably not as battle-hardened, trying to keep him safe and out of it all isn't out of character. Mostly, this idea just came from the fact that she tried to brush it off, then seemed disappointed when Gerry spoke about the gifted kids program, despite him being well enough able to speak for himself. She probably doesn't want him involved. This however all relies on the context that Gertrude knows stuff. Honestly, she might just be his grandma that he now lives with either for rent reasons or because his parents might be dead. It could honestly be that simple, I just like rattling off ideas.

CELIA KEEPS DROPPING HINTS OF KNOWING SHIT. SHE KNOWS SOMETHING. SHE KNOWS THINGSSSS. I have another post about my TMA theory of these reoccurring characters from TMA beginning to remember things from the TMA world. Its so incredibly on the nose for her to immediately start asking questions about the 14 fears WE KNOW, ask about alternate universes, AND BE THE ONE WHO PUSHED SAM TO LOOK INTO MORE STUFF ABOUT THE PROGRAM (Sam said it was her idea at the end of Ep 8) I don't know exactly how thisll work, but I get more and more convinced each episode that this theory has some merit.

And this is a small one, but blah blah Norris reading a paper about loneliness, isolation, and hostile architecture blah blah blah metaphors symbolism blah blah you get the jist

I rlly just wanna talk about this show to anyone, I don't have friends who've seen TMA or TMP so my only option is talking about it here. PLS feel free to talk about your own opinions and ideas in reblogs and shit. I don't care if they counter mine I just wanna talk about this show I love it sm </3

#tma #the magnus archives #tmagp #tmagp spoilers #the magnus protocol spoilers #the magnus protocol #sam tmagp #gerry keay #gerry kaey #tmagp theory

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mrs-monaghan · 1 year

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Do you have a video for the bv4 instance that you guys mentioned where jk had to collect himself?

Hello my dear. Mizgator our queen of analysis talks about it here starting from the 14:12 minute mark. She explains the sexual tension though but doesn't bring up the footsie. So it will be my pleasure 😁😁😁

First of all. Here is JK shamelessly turning on his man. Before we continue there's a few things you have to understand. BTS were on break and Jimin went to Paris and Hawaii while JK stayed in SK. (Yes they saw eo for a few hours for JK's surprise bday but I'm sure it wasn't enough. No way) So they didn't see eo much. And BV 4 started like as soon as Jimin landed. Like he came home the day before and then the next day they were shooting BV4 ep 1. So my guess is, Jikook had not...... well. They had not. Alright? Not for a while anyway. So a simple footsie like that, would have driven anyone crazy. Especially if your sex life is usually off the chain. Which by some of the things we have accidentally witnessed, I think its safe to say Jikook know how to have fun.

JK said yes. He enjoyed having his hands tied during ON 😏😏

Now I'm not saying these motherfuckers are kinky, but that's exactly what I'm saying 🙈

Okay. So anon this is the sequence. JK's toes are proper digging into his boyfriend's leg. And Jimin can pretend he is not paying attention because he's busy talking, but that man can feel every, single, press of what JK is doing

If you watch the video I linked above JK was proper pressing in on Jimin's leg. There is no way to ignore that.

Then suddenly Jhope asks Jimin;

And that's when JK gets up to leave. He was like; babe, you're on your own 🤣 And Jimin answers while looking at JK who is leaving;

Jhope for some reason keeps probing. 😂😂Note RM has his eyes on JK. This man knows Jikook and knows them very well. He was sus of JK and that's why he's watching him.

Lets keep in mind that indeed this room was actually very hot. SOPE switched seats because it was too hot. So keep in mind that this room is HOT. Okay? It's important.

So after getting the 3rd degree from Hobi as to why he was hot or if he was embarassed, Jimin gives the game away by looking at the Jimcock. Now this, is what let me know the dude was in hornyland.

What are u looking at Jimin? 🧐 what did JK do to you? 🤭🤭 So anyway, the culprit comes back with a whole ass coat on. Remember how we said the room was hot? Yeah.... why does JK have a coat on??

So anon like u mentioned, here is where Jikookers think JK went to the bathroom or outside to cool off/collect himself because he was hard. But I, think JK went to grab this coat so he could cover the Jungkonda. He didn't leave for long and when he came back he worked real hard to keep that place covered. So mans was still h.a.r.d

Moving on swiftly, Jimin pulls a Suga, and refuses to look up during the group toast.

Gee, I wonder why 🤔

So I know Jikook were sharing a room. Now while I believe they cuddled and then went back to their respective beds in the morning for shooting, I dont believe that's where the love making took place. I believe it was in the RV outside. No one was was using it and everyone was inside and they could be as loud as they wanted get all the privacy they needed. It had been a while. Privacy was required 😉

Damn. See why I said this blog aint for underage peeps? Anyway. Jikook is real.

#ask shaz #bts ask #if jikook isn't real then neither am i #jikook is real #jikook #kookmin #minkook #jimin #jungkook #jimin and jungkook #park jimin #jeon jungkook #bts #jikook analysis #jikook kinky #bon voyage Jikook

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megumi-fm · 7 months

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this week fortnight on megumi.fm ▸ the last leg

is that a pun referring to my aching ankle? yes. is resting at home for another week gonna ruin my mental health? yes. but am I exaggerating and throwing a tantrum for something that's probably not a big deal? also yes.

📋 Tasks

💻 Internship // progress tracker ↳ biopython model replication ✅ ↳ code for obtaining single fasta from overlapping sequences ✅ ↳ running HMMer and superfamily script✅ ↳ output analysis 🔁 ↳ literature review on transport proteins 🔁 ↳ transport protein family analysis 🔁 🎓 Uni ↳ our paper is finally out! there's a doi and everything now <3 it's not open access though :/// I might do some totally legal things to ensure more people can read it ↳ collected the hardcopy of my LOR ↳ collected my gradecard ↳ visited my advisor and updated her on stuff 🩺Radiomics Project ↳ radiomic features finalized✅ ↳ data cleanup 🔁

📅 Daily-s

🛌 consistent sleep [14/14] 💧 good water intake [14/14] 👟 exercise [/14] just basic stuff to maintain ankle mobility

Fun Stuff this week

💗i went to uni to watch one of my friends present something to the juniors! then I spent the afternoon chatting with my guide and later on went window shopping with my best friends (in retrospect i should not have done this because my ankle got infinitely worse the next day and now I'm stuck resting at home for an additional two weeks) 🎮playing undertale with @muakrrr 📺 ongoing: Marry my Husband, Cherry Magic Th, Perfect Propose, Doctor Slump, Flex X Cop 📺 binged: Blueming, Roommates of Poongduck 304 📹 Started watching Going Seventeen // so I've been listening to SVT for a while now and I did watch their Don't Lie II eps like two years ago but I never really checked anything else... however, considering that I'm stuck at home and that @zzzzzestforlife (who has impeccable taste) has mentioned it often on their posts, I decided to check out GoSe properly and. wow. I started with their mystery episodes [fav scenes under cut] and now I'm watching GoSe2020 in chronological order and !!!!!! The concepts, the storylines, the acting, the humour, the editing, even the subtitles are all so so good. I've been watching this show for two weeks now and I am now officially a cubic <3

📻 This week's soundtrack

Wk1: The Best of ATEEZ // I've been real obsessed since their 2024 world tour clips started showing up on social media; I was a casual enjoyer up to this point and then I went and checked them out and it's all so dystopian and immersive. My favourites would be Intro: Long Journey (which makes me feel like I'm in Pirates of the Caribbean), the Symphony version of Wonderland (for its musicality and Jungho hitting those notes), MATZ (that is insane in it's the visual storytelling in the MV) and Wake Up (whose performance choreo ended me) Wk2: The Best of BTS // in an attempt to revive a project I abandoned a year ago, I spent wayy too much time curating this playlist to get the most satisfying BTS transitions ever and I can confidently say that I'm nowhere close to my goal T-T but I kind of like the way it is now so I am simply going to give up

---

[Feb 12 to Feb 25 ; week 7+8/52 || this was not supposed to be one post but then... idk what happened... I feel very dull lately because of my ankle and just when I thought it was getting better it's become painful again... my friends and parents keep chastising me (and fairly so) for trying to move around even before I fully heal but patience has never been my strong suit. sitting still is really the biggest punishment for a hyperactive ADHD kid like me... i'm sure plenty others have it worse but... yeah... GoSe really carrying my mental health right now ]

my fav GoSe scenes

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absolutebl · 1 year

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This Week in BL - A Blah Week

May June 2023 Wk 1

Being a highly subjective assessment of one tiny corner of the interwebs. Organized by which ones (in each category) I’m enjoying most.

Ongoing Series - Thai

La Pluie (Sat iQIYI) ep 6 of 10 - It’s so damn cute. Seme is still sus... but cute. I didn’t even mind the pratfall since they clearly both wanted to take advantage of it. These two are great kissers - like MaxTul level. I am PLEASED. Meanwhile, sides have a drunken MOMENT.

Be My Favorite (Fri YouTube) ep 2 of 10? - I’m enjoying it which is fucking with my head, trash watch here!

Luminous Solution (Sat Gaga) ep 2 of 6 - Dome has aged so pretty! Do we think the café owner doesn’t want him because he is happy in love? I’m enjoying the high school story arc a lot, and I wish we were just watching that and none of the others (Dome or no Dome). I finally figured it out the actor playing Mai is from Manner of Death.

The Promise (Weds YT & WeTV) ep 10fin - Soap opera brother relationship suddenly? Also more not communicating and more separation? Just bullshit. The best part of the ep was the interstitial cat. It feels like this show dragged on forever I am so glad it’s over and I intend never to think about it again. Full review below (although I pretty much just said it all.)

Step By Step (Tues WeTV & Gaga) ep 7 of 10 - no ep this week, no idea why. It better not be because of the ZeeNew freakszoids or I am banhammering with a will. Our Skyy 2 (Bad Buddy & 1k*) eps 13-14 - skipped it this week as it concludes next week so I’ll binge all 4 at once.

Ongoing Series - Not Thai

Our Dining Table AKA Bokura no Shokutaku (Japan Thurs Gaga) ep 9 of 10 - It’s just so good. I say it every week but it IS. Oh the running of the gays trope! Japan1 For us? How thoughtful. Awe, Yutaka’s confession in tiny was the best. SMILEY KISS! It took 3 BLs but Inukai Atsuhiro has finally actually kissed a boy.

Star Struck (Korea iQIYI & Gaga) ep 5-6 of 8 - Oof this is such a hard show. Too much angst. It is a complicated story worth further analysis, but it’s too much for me and I don’t wanna dwell in it. Also, sweetie, you don’t get to cockblock the boy you rejected then invite him to sleep over, I don’t care how confused you are. Good for Hanjoon for standing up for himself, but holy shizz is this hard to watch.

Vian the series (Vietnam YouTube ) - Cats are not caretakers. The neighbor is a cutie. Fun convo for a VBL - top/bottom & everything. Faen fatale showed up + a pratfall kiss and frankly I’m finding this show a bit dull now that the charm of the initial premise has worn off.

Naked Dinner AKA Zenra Meshi (Japan Fri Gaga) ep 8 of 12 - I never know what to say about this one. This was the dark separation doom episode. I was pretty blah over it. I’m just not engaged with this show.

It’s Airing But ...

House of Stars (Thai Mon iQIYI) 12 eps - I bounced at ep 3. Will binge if told it is worth it at end.

Stay (Pinoy ????) 7 eps - It’s mostly in English and set in LA so I’m not bothering to hunt.

Let’s Eat Together AKA Aki wa Haru to Gohan wo Tabetai (Japan movie) cinema release means no inter distribution. Looks cozy: daily lives of college students and roommates who enjoy meals together, and a v codependent, adaptation of yaoi Let’s Eat Together Aki and Haru. I’ll keep an eye open for it but assume we can’t get it for now.

Takumi-kun Series 6: Nagai Nagai Monogatari no Hajimari no Asa (Japan Sun ????) ep 1 of 10 - NO ONE ASKED FOR THIS and no, I have no idea where to get it, why would I? (Say it with me everyone: Oh Japan, must you?*)

Ended this week

The Day I Loved You (Pinoy YouTube) ended. I have been reliably informed it’s better left a DNF.

My Story (Pinoy YouTube) ended. I bounced at ep 4. Someone tell me if I should bother with the rest?

Pure Vanilla (Singapore) - 10 min short on Gaga featuring a cafe, boss/employee, friends to lovers. It’s very sweet. Bit awkward acting. I love seeing real tats on my screen. I wish Singapore would give us a full proper BL. 7/10 RECOMMENDED WITH RESERVATIONS

The Promise (Thai YouTube) - Although well acted this show dragged a too simple premise out into the ultimate manipulative miscommunication repeats of idiotic "why don’t you just TALK!?” Phu & Nan are childhood bffs through college (almost lovers) until Phu disappears. After looking/waiting for him, Nan gives up and self isolates, and the actual story takes place 10 years later. Phu’s “reason” and inability to say it out loud makes the whole show just frustrating, squandering good chemistry, and a stellar cast of multiple faen fatals (whose personalities would’ve made them better boyfriends). Seriously do not bother. What a damn waste of talent, time, and electronic bandwidth. Fatally flawed. 4/10 NOT RECOMMENDED

Okay it ended a while ago but I finished it:

Make A Wish (Thai grey) - 6 part PNR (from Sammon - Manner of Death & Triage) about a doctor who can see the dead and strikes a bargain with a wish-granting irreverent tree angel - naturally they fall in love. Stars Fluke Natouch opposite not Ohm, but who cares bc Fluke has chemistry with everybody. Once again the Thai afterlife is incredibly bureaucratic but I enjoyed the premise and the unfolding of the story (it’s not predictable but still satisfying and with nice little twist). I like that the doctor is just gay af and has a fag hag bestie and everything. The cast is excellent but the comedic stylings are too overblown and tonally off. It had sad parts and did make me cry but is ultimately happy with a great sex scene, good smiley kisses, and all the agency. 8/10 RECOMMENDED

Next Week Looks Like This:

Starting:

6/7 Love Tractor (Korea iQIYI) 8 eps - announced in 2022 from WATCHA (Semantic Error) I've been WAITING for this one. About a stressed-out law student who family obligations force into the countryside where a series of strange encounters and misunderstandings with his hunky young farmer neighbour. Will this be an extended version of Strongberry’s Some More? Or Korea’s take on Restart After Come Back Home? I'm chuffed. Country boy meets city boy is a very underused romance trope in BL.

6/9 Boys Love Omegaverse AKA The Boys Love sequel no one asked for (Japan movie) - everyone jockeyed to release the first ABO but it looks like Japan will take it. They do like to do all things BL FIRST. This seems to just be borrowing the branding of Boys Love, showing little resemblance to either original, since it's about 4 men in an idol group. (But could go very dark with that title. Boys Love is technically the first and one of the darkest BLs ever made.) Movie+Japan = no inter distribution.

Still Coming June 2023

6/15 Tokyo in April AKA Shigatsu no Tokyo wa (Japan Gaga) 8 eps - Based on a yaoi, this is a reunion romance that takes place in an office. Japan does Our Dating Sim? Yes please.

6/22 About Us but Not About Us (Pinoy movie from 2022 on Prime) - A professor grieving the loss of his partner meets an ambitious literature student.

6/24 Why You (Khmer BL ????) - Billed as a horror romance, not sure if this is a movie or a series where it will air... nothing except that it exists.

6/24 Tie The Knot AKA Under the Same Sky (Pinoy movie on Prime) Trailer - I guess Prime is coming for our Pinoy BL? From OXIN Films (Rainbow Prince), announced for 2022 based on a true story, Briggs's family runs a bridal business but he has never had a chance to fall in love until he meets Shao, a groom to be.

6/25 Dinosaur Love (Thai iQIYI) Trailer 5 eps - from Ultimate Troop about a uni student, Rak, whose partner cheats on him with Rak's best friend. This gives bad boy hazer Dino an opportunity to hit on Rak at last. From The Yearbook people so I will not watch this as it airs. After Remember Me? Never again with them.

2023 forthcoming BL master post (see comments, some are inaccurate, NOT KEPT UPDATED)

THIS WEEK’S BEST MOMENTS

From Make a Wish.

Found my side dish. (Be My Favorite)

We asked this question literally the ENTIRE show. (The Promise)

My point exactly!

(last week)

Current Kpop earworm? BTOB on Killing Voice - honestly I’m ded, end this show, no one else can ever be this good.

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jimmyspades · 6 months

Text

Sad Boston Legal analysis at 9 am sorry

Season 3 Alan sees Vanessa in that pretty yellow dress and he can’t stop staring, he tells her why it affects him so deeply:

When I was a sophomore in high school I attended my very first dance. There was this girl, standing across the dance floor, wearing a yellow dress. She was so beautiful. I didn't have the courage to ask her to dance, perhaps for fear of the long lonely walk back across the gym floor after being refused. I finally willed myself to go ask, and then suddenly she was gone, in a fleeting second she must have left. I began to imagine what she must have been like. Her laugh. Certainly her kiss. I still know exactly what that feels like, though l've never felt it. She's been a figment for 29 years. An imagined standard by which all other women seem to have fallen terribly short.

He said it was a sophomore dance so he was probably 14-15, which means he had already been assaulted by his neighbor (s4 ep4: “I was 14, Denny. It was statutory rape. You’re the first person I’ve ever told that to.”) but he hadn’t yet been abused by his best friend Paul’s mom Victoria (explored in The Practice s8 eps 13-15: “Victoria, I was 16. Can a boy even be capable of love? … How many teenagers had you been with?”)

So there’s teenage Alan at the dance, at a very strange, confusing time in his life—

—his parents aren’t there for him, his father doesn’t like him, his mother never hugs him, but recently other adults have started showing him affection; grown women want him and use him sexually, and he thinks he’s flattered by the attention because he’s a stupid horny teenage boy!, of course he should want this!, he’s never been touched and suddenly everyone wants to touch him, even Denny makes a joke of it decades later when Alan finally calls it rape, but he’s still just a child. He’s 14!!!! Suddenly he’s “experienced” and treated like an adult and has a reputation—

—but tonight he’s shyly leaning up against the gymnasium wall, alone, wishing he had the confidence to ask this beautiful girl in his class, his own age, to dance. She was so pretty and safe to him—making up a harmless, idealized girl who would never hurt him at a time when he was being abused and tossed around and confused beyond belief—that for the next 30 years (and beyond) Alan used the idea of her to protect himself.

The idea of her kept his standards so high he could always walk away, he never had to be hurt—because any woman who hurt him clearly wasn’t her, so of course she’d disappoint. He expected this.

Of course Tara broke up with him. Of course Sally wouldn’t stay. Of course the women who had sex with him as a teenager lost interest. Of course he and Gloria would never work out. Of course Phoebe (and several other ex gfs) came back to use him then leave again. Of course his wife died. They weren’t the girl in the yellow dress, they were always going to let him down. “I’ve never met the girl in the yellow dress.” He’s still waiting to find her.

#why the fuck would I write this. oh my gd alan #boston legal #alanalysis

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neoncat666 · 8 months

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the suckening ep 6 spoilers

i finished

HEY WHAT THE FUCK CHARLIE??? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK WDYM HES LIMBLESS WHAT???

hey uh remember when charlie said to grizzly "I SURE HOPE NOTHING ABOUT IT CHANGES FOREVER" abour Arthur's design when it was revealed publically? im so fucking scared rn. also got so genuinely scared with Shilo almost died. save me magnus and grefgor.... save me

ANYWAYS BITING OFF HIS TONGUE AND SPITTING IT AT THE TWINS IS SUCH A POWER MOVE HOOLY SHIT.

As for next episode I can only hope that someone finds Shilo before he bleeds out and fucking dies for real and if Emizel is gone for a decade um. anyways. he probably wont be but it would be kinda funny and I hope he can figure out where the fuck he is and make it back to the others or like gets picked up or something. the campaign is around 14 episodes if i remember what they said correctly (they also said give or take) so we're about halfway and just god so much has happened in these 6 episodes already?

its, hard to picture where I want these characters to end up besides happy tbh but also with characters like arthur it seems like happiness will come at the cost of himself and even if emizel is in power how it that going to affect the others. this series just seems to get better and better as the episodes go by that i find myself wanting to engage more and more with the community which i don't often do due to my own personal comfort and fears but as you can see with the fact that i'm posting these, that the suckening has def got me so engaged that i want to talk about theories and analysis and even just dumb shit about it. not to say i don't like the other campaigns theyve done (i spent 20 minutes in my partner's dms bawling about riptide, pd, and bitb oncec) but the suckening is probably one of their best yet

#the suckening #the suckening spoilers #jrwi #dm.txt

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telomeke-bbs · 5 months

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สวัสดีค่ะ Hi telomeke,

I'm new here... just because of you! 😅 Found your blog month ago while I did some BBS research... and I'm really impressed by your research skills, your amazing eyes for details and your patience in finding locations.

Now it happens that in 14 days I am flying to Thailand for 4 weeks. And in preparation for this, I saved alll the locations you mentioned on google maps. 😇 I think, I'll take a tour through Bangkok to all the locations.

I couldn't find out how long ago post no. 12 was and wether there will be any new ones to follow. But I think there is at least one location missing. (the companies of Pat's and Pran's parents)

Are you still searching for locations or is your work completed?

If you are interested, it would be my pleasure to talk to you about the serie. If not, it's fine too. I just wanted to make you compliments for your work! Thank you so much! ขอบคุณมากๆ น่ะค่ะ 🙏 I really enjoyed reading it and I've still many post to read. 😊

Okay, that's it! Hope your fine and still in love with BBS! 💖

เจอกันค่ะ คุณบี see ya, Bee 🐝

Hi dear @honey-beebs! สวัสดีครับ and welcome!😍

Awww, thanks so much for this lovely Ask. Any fan of BBS is immediately a friend in my book. 🥰 Thanks so much for appreciating my BBS research and analysis.

I can tell you also have a keen eye for research, because you saw not just what was there in my location posts, but also what was missing – Pat and Pran's families' shops. 👀 And sadly, that is the one location that I have been desperately searching for over these past two years, but have so far been unable to find. 😭

It's gotten me all worked up because there are actually a lot of clues, and I've been able to deduce quite a lot about the Jindapat and Siridechawat hardware stores:

It looks like the Jindapat one (belonging to Pat's family) is actually a construction material shop; the shelves and the items all around have been there for some time, not likely to have been cobbled together just for the show.

The Siridechawat shop though (belonging to Pran's family) looks like a covered vehicular park or outdoor storage, that BBS dressed up just so it could masquerade as a shop (not too successfully, in my opinion 😂).

The general location of the shops is likely to be not in Rangsit, but rather somewhere closer to central Bangkok (though not in the absolute city center). I say this because the outside shrubbery on the central road divider is very well-manicured (you see that more in central Bangkok, less in Greater Bangkok), and the lamp-post has markings that make it look more like central Bangkok ones. But there aren't any tall buildings visible, so it's not likely to be in the absolute city center where skyscrapers abound (and intrude on every view).

Actually, the road, trees, lamp-post and shrubbery look a lot like what you see at Phet Kasem Road, where the Boonyavej Hospital is located. There are lots of semi-industrial properties there that would fit the bill (including the wide gate and sturdy fencing), and the area is also more low-rise without being truly suburban (which would be the right setting for a shop that has giant billboards, that we can see in Ep.1 and Ep.3). Unfortunately, I've crawled the road several times over on Google Street View (it's hugely long) but have yet to find any matching property. 🤷‍♂️

If the shops are not on Phet Kasem Road, then it's very much a needle in the haystack search because Bangkok must have hundreds of roadway miles that fit the above description… 😭

Anyway, I'll still continue searching, and will post the location if I can find it. But with every day that passes, it seems less likely that the location will be found (because it seems ripe for redevelopment).

My location post no. 12 was dated 18 June 2023, and it's likely the penultimate one. I have just one more planned to identify the remaining minor locations. And if I can track down the hardware stores, then maybe I'll post a 14th one (but I don't know if that will ever happen 🤷‍♂️).

If my schedule permits, I'll try to write-up the few remaining locations that I've identified in the coming two weeks, so you should be able to refer to them by the time you're in Bangkok. But my work deadlines are looming, so I can't promise the post will be on time!

Please do post photographs of your trip and tag me, especially for the BBS locations. 😍 I would so love to see them. Other fans have also been visiting various BBS locations too, so you may wish to refer to these posts for additional information:

youtube

‌

Here are a few more pointers that I've gleaned from the above posts, and from interacting with other BBS fans (especially @tiistirtipii), since I made my own location posts:

U Café is no longer at the base of the block where the fight scene in Ep.5 took place (somewhere close by the Environmental Engineering Dept), so the setting looks a bit different now. But it's near the white tiger mural at the College of Engineering.

Gram Café and Pancakes is no longer at Level 2 of The Promenade; it moved to the foodcourt (in Fashion Island?) some time back.

The 112 Chemical Room 1 in Ep.1 (where Pat covered Pran's mouth while putting a finger to his own lips, after yanking him into the alley to escape the other Engine boys) is most likely somewhere in Rangsit University (probably the College of Engineering, near the workshops) but I've never been able to pinpoint the exact location (Google Street View doesn't do all roads and side alleys in RSU 😂). Do let me know if you find it.

As for your other questions, I'm always down to chat about Bad Buddy. Still very much a BBS boy at heart, and time hasn't dimmed how much I love the series! 💖 So feel free to send me Asks and messages if you'd like to converse about Bad Buddy. The only caveat is (as I mentioned above) my work has been building up lately (this week has been a bit slower, but it is expected to get busier after mid-April 2024 😭), so my responses to Asks and messages will sometimes be delayed (as my other friends on Tumblr have also experienced).

Have a great time in Thailand! Your Tumblr header makes it sound like this might be your first trip there. Do take care! Thailand is an amazing place. The usual precautions apply, but the place is full of wonderful sights and delicious food. I've always enjoyed every trip there. 😍

Warmest regards,

Tel 💖

P.S. Can I say how much I also love your Tumblr name? My first instinct is to read it as Honey Beebs, but then on looking closer I can tell it's also Honey Bee + BBS, which is really clever. 🤩

‌

#tumblr ask #bbs filming locations

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nowordsformylove · 7 months

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jonesmith analysis ep 11-26 (part 4)

its finally done :)

ep 11

^ Davy looks extra tiny here its so cute.

ep 12 Mike is barely in this one and yet I got something

ep 13 married couple episode. you just have to see the vision.

"WAY TO GO DAVYBABY" 🥰

that scene where Mike is picking up the dirt and hes like "either this dirts the cause of all your trouble, or im getting my hands dirty for nothing" and you can hear Davy very lightly laughing gahh so cute its like a subtle little laugh... hes infatuated.

^we've already established that Davy is just a touchy grabby guy but he really is just standing around holding onto Mike's arm in this scene, not even as a fear response hes just chillin holding his man.

ep 14

nothing really here but i do love that they are mirroring each others posture here

ep 15

butt touch.

also another calling out to Mike in pain scene.

ep 16 and 17 im ngl i didnt bother rewatching these ones so you just have to take my word for it that they are gay in love.

ep 18

neck bite.

ep 19

"good point." "good point."

there is something going on here...

ep 20

this ep is more group poly so im just going to add these cute little touches

ep 21

I love that Davy is just hanging out in the garage with Mike and Peter while they work on the car, hes clearly not helping hes just there to admire them at work.

"makes it lighter" "goes faster"

^^^love this play off each other so much its very in sync.

booster seat ass. I know Mike copped a feel when he was reaching for the book.

this cute scene where Davy is literally pressed against Mike and is leaning his cheek on his shoulder.

pictures are from THIS POST.

ep 22

only this faggotry

ep 23

THIS SCENE where Davy giggles at Mike. and this scene where Mike is telling a dumb joke and hes puffing his chest up Davy looks smitten to me.

the homoerotic tension in this scene. the whistling and glancing at each other... they would be fucking if Micky and Peter werent in the room too. I am choosing to believe that even tho they are staying in a mansion they are all sharing that one room and Davy and Mike are sharing that bed. Davy crawling up behind Mike he shouldve put his hands on his shoulders.

looking at each other like this right after a love confession.. okay!

ep 24 💅

I am choosing to interpret Mike bursting out laughing when Davy first dresses up as a girl as a fake exaggerated reaction because deep inside he felt immense attraction and was having an oh fuck moment.

ep 26

touchy Davy. I also love their pink black outfit contrast. images are from THIS POST.

#yayyy yippee #sorry this one took so long auughh but its here so now ive completed the show #I am not planning to do head + 33 1/3 + 97 special #jonesmith #js analysis #davy jones #mike nesmith #64post #64monkees

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2offayyo-kzt · 6 months

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Why Sean is a "sad" and "empty" character :

(a far too long and elaborate shitpost)

based on this post by @hellsmell

I used my over analysis skills dating back from my BSD era, if you're familiar with my account, nothing I've written will be new to you.

I insist, it's a huge shitpost, not to be taken seriously !

A marriage on the rocks :

Obviously, this argument only applies to the period before the Brain Scramblies ep, but given that the Rinaldis renewed their wedding vows, it means that the couple had reached an important milestone in their relationship.

So their marital life had probably been going badly for several years already, particularly in terms of communication and mutual respect.

Trust issues and low self-esteem :

Sean seems to have major self-confidence problems, and therefore frequently lies to his wife for fear of disappointing her.

His low self-esteem became particularly apparent when his entire memory was erased, and his first reaction to learning that Charmaine was his wife was "I wish".

And their couple went sour probably the moment Sean took Charmaine's presence in his life for granted.

However, Sean still has doubts, even years after having won Charmaine's heart; even if his wife has agreed to renew their marriage vows (an act that shows the love she still bears for her husband)

When Sean might have been seriously financially ruined during the Casino episode, he confided his fears to Laszlo : "She's gonna leave me Laz... She's gonna leave me."

Sean believes that if he can't provide Charmaine with financial stability, she'll leave him at the first opportunity.

Psychologically and physically abused during his childhood :

Sean doesn't seem to have had a very easy childhood, even if he never seemed to lack in terms of money (studying at a private school, owning a car at a young age) his father (Franklin) was particularly harsh with his son.

As a child, Sean wasn't allowed to watch programs on PBS.

He was also forced to kill a deer at the age of 14, which can be impressive if you're a sensitive person. And he still seems traumatized by the event, or at least it left a deep impression on him :

"First time I ever saw something die. But it wouldn't be the last."

And in the Sunrise Sunset episode, it was very strongly implied that Franklin was even physically violent with his son supposedly to "settle" conflicts :

"Now, I'm gonna count down from three. When I say go, start swinging. First one to tap out, other one's head of the household."

All that scene also indicates that Sean was forced to take on responsibilities that he was not supposed to have.

A character who can't allow himself to show tenderness :

We can assume that this rough, probably macho education made Sean feel compelled to keep up a tough facade.

Anthony Atamanuik (Sean's actor) said Sean was perpetually either "confused" or "aggressive"

And Anthony would have liked, in one episode, for Sean to show a softer side of himself.

"But Anthony if you had to pitch an idea, what's an idea or storyline you think might be Seanie's"

"It would be fun to discover, something like soft that Sean does. Like some secret soft thing. Like he's part of a quilting group, or that he rescues birds in a Wildlife refuge in Staten Island. I think I want to find one piece of him that's like gentle."

And maybe that's where his obsession with Ocean's 12 comes from, to have a support that can serve as a healthy coping mechanism but that doesn't make him "vulnerable" in the eyes of the world and is easy to justify.

A character who abuses himself :

This idea mainly comes from what Anthony said during an AMA on Reddit, where he shared his personal theory on why Sean resisted to the frequent hypnosis :

"You know, it's like if you met someone who had a very hard life, they maybe self abused a lot when they were young but then they got clean, they got like sober right. Let's say they did a lot of toxic substances in their system when they were young. Sometimes those people just have a resilient immune system for some reason cause they like... abused themselves so much when they were younger. So I wonder if Sean had, sort of, you know, he drinks all the time, and seem not to care of himself that well, so maybe he's immune to the brain scramblies because he abused himself so much that he's immune to it."

But this is also reflected in the show, where Sean drinks a very large number of cans of beer.

He also suffers from a gambling addiction and is objectively an alcoholic.

Suicidal ?

So I'm extrapolating a lot, but it's interesting to note that when the Jersey Devil threatened his life, instead of shouting "help me" he shouted "kill me".

He also told Laszlo "You're my main man. I'd die for you."

So, obviously, it's to be taken with a pinch of salt, but it's perhaps indicative of his disinterest in living.

Parallels with the Joker :

So I'm bullshiting big time here, but I find it interesting.

When Sean was dancing at the Pride Parade, Anthony did his best to "march like Jack Nicholson's Joker"

In the 2019 Joker movie, Arthur took care of his mother in the same way Sean took care of his mother who suffered from dementia.

Note that the Joker's mother, let her son be abused : "Much like her son, Penny suffered from an unspecified mental illness. She was responsible for letting her former boyfriend abuse Arthur in his childhood"

To conclude, I think Sean gives me Sad Jester vibes, a comical character, but more profound and tortured when you take a closer look.

I can't believe I wasted two hours writing that lmao

#wwdits sean #sean rinaldi #wwdits analysis #wwdits meta #kztpost

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kinnenvy · 1 year

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i am having thoughts about brian and his parents (jack joan debbie). it's messy and chaotic but i need to take it out of my brain and put it somewhere

Jack and Joan

There's like a pattern that he must go through with his birth parents, especially in season 1 it feels as if brian likes to present his relationship with his parents in one way, when it's actually very different.

He feels troubled by his own fatherhood, by Justin's relationship with his dad and the first thing he does is search for his own dad. he tells justin he never sees him, but then at the end of ep 1x09 michael talks about brian's visit and heartbreak over jack like it's something that happens routinely (and it does for sure, considering that it seems like jack is depending on him for money). "When will you ever learn?" NEVER! HE WILL NEVER LEARN!

until s2 ig. to me his relationship with joan is the most puzzling. he visits her, brings her flowers, but it doesn't feel like he ever tries to indulge her in the same way he did with jack. i wonder if that's because he didn't grow up being scared of her, so there's no instinct to get into her good graces...? im not qualified for this kind of analysis i dont think

they've both surely put him under intense distress, in different ways maybe, but it's distress nonetheless. living in that house must have been like being taken apart constantly, nowhere to hide, no comfort, only pain.

im not sure what the timeline is, but it's possible that the first time brian felt loved and wanted must have been THAT DAY in the showers after school. it could be also why he has that twisted perception of what happened. (or maybe it's just early 2000s writing who knows)

Debbie

she honestly makes me kinda mad. she saw a 14 y/o break in her liquor cabinet, get drunk and thought "this kid's kinda troublesome idk :/". i think making big speeches and saying pretty words she doesn't fully understand is very much part of her character (ben), but the way she does it with brian in relation to his parents is horrible to me.

(surely without knowing) she uses Brian's need for approval from his parents and convinces him to come out to his dad, what does that achieve? brian has to hear his father tell him he should die. brian has an important, vulnerable moment with her after his diagnosis and she shares it with joan without him asking or even wanting her to. what does that achieve? we remember what it achieves.

I think it's fair that she thinks about michael first and then everyone else, but i feel like she's softer on everyone else (david????) compared to brian. sure he kept their relationship vague enough to make him believe they could become a couple, but he isn't doing it to have a laugh, they're codependent. when brian is forced to break it off by debbie, she's happy to let brian take the fall on his own. she understands what he did, so instead of maybe idk helping him get at least Lindsay's support, she keeps her mouth shut, calls brian a good kid, gives him a pat on the back and is ready to send him his own way.

which brings me to the way she acts like she understands brian. it feels like the writers are telling us she understands him, but does she? idk. she picks up on things he does in secret one moment and then gets him totally wrong the next. she calls him a selfish asshole in front of everyone, but when it's just the two of them she suddenly has always known he's a good person. why is she never saying good things about him when everyone's around? why does it have to be just the two of them?

"Brian would hate it" "Brian would cringe himself to another planet" Sure but maybe Brian would also get home and maybe for once feel like the adult he imprinted on approves of him with no compromises :// idk

#brian kinney #qaf #my babygirlest #queer as folk #meta #it's a rant folks #there's more ive forgotten for sure #also jennifer

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the-conversation-pod · 8 months

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Tens and Chops, Vol. 1 (A Grab Bag Episode)

We gotta clear the decks ahead of the VIIB Awards, so it’s a grab bag episode! Ben, NiNi, and Shan talk a bunch of shows that we couldn’t NOT talk about, and award the fall’s Girl You Tried.

Grab a drink and a snack and join us for one of the most varied episodes we've had on the show.

Timestamps

The timestamps will now correspond with chapters on Spotify for easier navigation.

00:00:00 - Introduction 00:01:15 - Kiseki: Dear To Me 00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance 00:26:05 - Love In Translation 00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You 00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman 01:07:01 - If It's With You 01:15:38 - Absolute Zero 01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa 01:33:32 - Middleman's Love 01:49:07 - Final Thoughts, and Girl, You Tried

The Conversation Transcripts!

Thanks to the continued efforts of @ginnymoonbeam as transcriber, and @lurkingshan as an editor and proofreader, we are able to bring you transcripts of the episodes.

Please send our volunteers your thanks!

00:00:00 - Welcome

NiNi

Welcome to The Conversation About BL, aka The Brown Liquor Podcast.

Ben

And there it is. I’m Ben.

NiNi

I’m NiNi.

Ben

And we’re you’re drunk Caribbean uncle and auntie here sitting on the porch in the rocking chairs.

NiNi

Four times a year we pop in to talk about what’s going on in the BL world.

Ben

We shoot the shit about stories and all the drama going into them. I review from a queer media lens.

NiNi

And I review from a romance and drama lens.

Ben

So if you like cracked-out takes and really intense emotional analysis…

NiNi

If you like talking about artistry, industry, and the discourse…

Ben

And if you generally just love simping…

NiNi

There is a lot of simping on this podcast…

Ben

We are the show for you!

00:01:15 - Tens and Chops

Ben

And we're back! We've made it to the Grab Bag for this season of The Conversation. We've named this one “Tens and Chops: Volume 1.” I really hope we have a collection of these to do a smash cut off in the future.

NiNi

So looking forward to it. Definitely looking forward to it. Absolutely looking forward to it. I named it Volume 1 for a reason.

Ben

We have nine shows to talk about plus a bonus segment. Because there are nine shows to talk about, we have brought in help for this one. We have brought in our drama expert, Shan, who is with us again.

Shan

Hello people.

NiNi

Ah, that sweet, sweet smell of a great guest. I love it. Okay, all right, let's dive in, people.

Ben

All right. So, Shan, we're finally into the winter. Let's discuss the fall shows as an experience. As you know, I was grumpy as hell coming out of the summer through the fall with the state of BL.

How are you feeling about all these various shows?

Shan

Your grumpiness was not unfounded. I don't think the fall season was particularly strong. We hit a slump. A lot of shows just flopped right at the end after strong starts, a lot of shows just didn't take off. There were some things that we were really excited about and then when we actually got to them it was…just so fucking disappointing. [laughs]

I think the strong start to the year and some of our expectations for these shows maybe set us up to be a little extra disappointed in how the season went.

Ben

Before we get into all of the shows individually, NiNi, for the sake of our audience, who may want to skip around this episode, please read the list of shows we're about to discuss.

NiNi

[clears throat] Don't mind if I do! So, in this episode we shall be discussing Kiseki: Dear To Me from Taiwan, Dangerous Romance from Thailand, Love In Translation also from Thailand, I Cannot Reach You from Japan, My Personal Weatherman also from Japan, If It's With You also from, you guessed it, Japan, Absolute Zero from Thailand, My Dear Gangsta Oppa from Thailand-ish, and Middleman's Love the most Thai thing I have seen. [laughs]

Ben

All right. So we're going to be here for a while. I hope you grabbed your drinks and a snack.

NiNi

Put us on pause. Go pee, come back. Or you could just take your phone to the bathroom. Whatever you're doing, I'm not judging you.

Ben

I am, don't worry.

[NiNi laughs]

00:04:20 - Kiseki: Dear To Me

NiNi

Alright, let's start with Kiseki. Ben, what is Kiseki about?

Ben

It's about how nothing was learned from HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and that once again I have been made to suffer for things I did not do.

Kiseki: Dear to Me is a Taiwanese BL about a well-performing high school student late in his studies who gets wrapped up in the gang politics of his local area, falls in love with a gangster, and complications ensue? There's a side couple that's also a bunch of gangsters who end up stealing the show.

Shan

[laughs] I was going to say, I'm pretty sure this show is actually about Ai Di, but okay.

Ben

It is a Lin Pei Yu joint, and we were expecting so much more from her, and yet here we are talking about it in the Grab Bag.

NiNi

Mm-mm-mm. So, Shan, come on in here. Give me, like, a word or a short phrase—something pithy—for the audience.

Shan

Hmm… The pithy description of this show? “Chaotic, but in an awesome way.”

NiNi

Interesting…

Ben

I will agree with that. This show was fun as hell to watch when it wasn't enraging for me.

NiNi

[laughs] I don't know. I was watching it and literally losing the thread while I was watching it.

Shan

Your mistake was ever trying to grasp the thread in the first place.

NiNi

You right, you're right. I made a mistake. My bad. I shouldn't have tried. But—[laughs]—the show was clearly trying, so I thought I had to try, too.

Listen, I often find Taiwanese shows hard to follow, personally, and I know that's a me thing. But it's something about where they choose to start and end their episodes, I think. I lose the thread.

Ben

I do agree with that. I don't think that, at least the BL tradition we've been exposed to, values episodic structure in a way that is recognizable to those of us who are probably grounded in the American sitcom tradition. A lot of their shows, we tend to remember as a whole, not as individual parts, and that did not work very well here.

You were not the only person struggling from episode to episode remembering what the fuck was going on. I struggled as well. It was difficult watching this show because I didn't really know thematically what the show wanted to be about. While I really liked the work everyone did—I think all of the actors at every level were really dialed in and it was fun for some of the cameos. I will never return to this particular show because this show involves Wayne Song and Huang Chun Chih as gangsters who are rivals with the leads we care about.

They have Wayne playing this super-violent, kind of out-of-control gang leader who has to die, and he does, and this is a bad choice because it's not like the rest of us fucking forgot about HIStory 3: Make Our Days Count, and then they released a special episode that is just, “By the way, Chun Chih's character was mooning after him the whole time and now he's sad.” Why? Why was this the choice? Have you not learned that we don't want you to kill these guys? Shit!

NiNi

I think definitely the cameos across the board lost me—A, because I don't watch that much Taiwanese BL, so a lot of it was like, “Wait, who's this guy? Who's this guy? Who's this guy? Why are they here? What are they doing?” I recognize a couple of faces from a couple of things, but mostly I was just confused.

Shan

This show was like 50% powered by cameos. That is what kept people excited week over week and talking about the show. Spotting the faces was really fun.

So, NiNi, as the resident Taiwanese BL apologist around here, you are absolutely correct that it is often hard to follow the story. The writing is always the weakest point. What has always been my favorite thing about the shows we get from Taiwan is that there is a real connection, I think, between the physical stuff, the intimacy work, and the emotions of the characters, and they kind of really nail those relationship dynamics and that kind of character work.

But the stories—the plots—have always been kind of a mess, even in my favorite Taiwanese BLs? And this one really took the cake. It was all over the place. I could not at any point in this show, find my footing in the plot, or what was supposed to be happening, or why I was supposed to care.

That didn't really bother me because this is definitely a show that encourages you to just be along for the ride, and kind of react to scenes, and not worry too much about the overarching story. And that worked for me in this show enough that I had a good time. Would I say that it's good or well written? Absolutely not. [laughs]

And Ben's complaints about the way that they used those actors from Make Our Days Count are absolutely valid. I kind of couldn't believe the audacity, putting Wayne Song in the show just to kill him off.

Ben

Audacity is the right call, bestie. Thank you very much.

Shan

Right, the audacity! Like, it was not a cool thing to do, and they shouldn’t have done it. So those criticisms are completely fair about this show.

NiNi

There are things about this that I absolutely liked. I did enjoy the couples. I enjoyed the unhinged-ness of them, but I couldn't follow their story, so I was just kind of vibing—which, totally my style. And when I was just vibing I was havin’ a good time.

If I had to score Kiseki: Dear to Me. The couples are great, the story’s a mess. I'd give it a 6 ½.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 7.5, which was probably generous because I just had so much fun watching it, but I can't claim that it is structurally sound.

Ben

Shan, like the rest of MDL, rated this show with her coochie.

NiNi

That is staying in.

[all laugh]

Shan

What did you score it, Ben?

Ben

What do you think I scored it, bestie?

Shan

I feel like you scored it real low, because you were pissed about Wayne Song. [laughs]

Ben

I was pissed.

NiNi

Ben was definitely offended, so it got a 5 or less.

Shan

Oh yeah, for sure.

Ben

What do you think I gave it?

Shan

Ben

NiNi

Ben

I gave it a 5. We're laughing a little bit, but legitimately that was so upsetting. And your show was stupid! There wasn't even a point to it. It was just shock, and it felt mean, like you're still salty with us about the HIStory franchise. You are not getting above a 5 from me, despite the fact that Louis Chang and Nat Chen were so much fun to watch, and how much I enjoyed the work between Taro Lin and Hsu Kai. I had a great time watching all four of these men and all the people who cameoed in this.

NiNi

Why do you think there was no Tang Yi and Shao Fei?

Ben

Because there's a cash grab for doing HIStory 6: Freed.

Shan

I want HIStory 6: Freed, and I want it fucking yesterday. Where is our show? [Ben laughs]

NiNi

Alright, so Ben gave it a 5. I gave it a 6.5. Shan gave it a very generous 7.5. Somebody do math.

Ben

That's a 6.

Shan

You can call it a 6.

NiNi

It's a 6 for Kiseki: Dear to Me. Shoving it off, let's move on to the next one, which we are about to trash.

00:12:20 - Dangerous Romance

NiNi

Ben, tell the world about Dangerous Romance.

Shan

Oh, ho ho ho! Here we go!

Ben

Dangerous Romance—[sighs]—is about how a windmill… cannot be powered…without the wind.

[all break down for prolonged laughing fit]

NiNi

Please! I can’t stand your ass!

Shan

Had to be done.

NiNi

Okay, bring it back, guys. Bring it back.

Ben

Dangerous Romance purports to be an inter class romance set in a high school between a very smart scholarship student who's super poor, because his parents are dead and it’s just him and his older brother, who's kind of irresponsible with money; and a rich kid who's kind of a pompous bully in school—has no valuable skills of any sort to bring to the table. The two of them crossed paths and are drawn to each other. There are things that happen in the show, I guess. Soccer is a big deal, at some point in this. There's very much a repeated High School Musical TROYYY bit that happens multiple times over three episodes.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

NiNi

Oh, God, you shady bitch. Carry on.

Ben

It's trash. This show was fucking horrible. This show started out being so fucking interesting. There was the whole notion about Kanghan being just a stupid as hell bully, who only had money on his side, who was getting wrecked constantly by Sailom, this very smart, poor kid.

And then after episode 2, it all went away, and it was about how Kanghan is a sad rich boy whose mom is dead. And so because his mom is dead, his dad just spoils him rotten, and he just wants his dad to treat him like a real boy, or whatever. I don't give a fuck. This show was so fucking trash.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan, you're a fan of Shameless. Please explain to the people why this show was so offensive to you.

Shan

For the record, I think I dropped this show Week 4, because I was just so fucking pissed [laughs] about what they were doing with Sailom.

A little background here: I grew up as a poor person—lived in poverty for like the first 20 years of my life. And I have always had a big interest in stories about class disparity, stories about surviving poverty, stories about families that get through those kinds of challenges because I lived it. And so I'm always very interested to see how it's depicted in fiction. So when the show started, I was so thrilled to finally see a Thai BL that seemed to be taking class disparity seriously? That seemed to want to explore what it actually means when a wealthy person and a poor person are kind of thrown together and have to figure out how to get on the same page across their differences.

Sailom had some really serious shit set up for him. Him and his brother are in really hard times. They're in deep, deep debt. He's working multiple jobs to try to pay off this debt that they've inherited, and he has this fucking rich bitch bully on his ass, causing him problems, fucking with his jobs, fucking with his money, spreading rumors about him, costing him work!

I think a lot of people who fell for this show maybe forgot—but I sure fucking didn't—that Kang spread rumors that Sailom was a fucking pedophile, and cost him all of his tutoring students. This is not minor shit that they set up at the beginning of this show to explain the adversarial relationship between these two characters. So I expected them to take it seriously. I expected this to be a serious narrative about how those two could get past those conflicts and come together in a romance—which obviously they were going to. But, that's not what we got at all.

We didn't get a realistic look at what it means to be poor and to be living with a crushing debt that weighs you down every single day. We didn't get a realistic look at the dynamics between somebody who's grown up like Sailom with the experiences that he's had and the issues that he has to carry every single day, and how he might think about someone like Kang and how he might view him with disdain, and with resentment. We didn't get any of that. We didn't get a realistic look at how these two could come past the initial bullying and the initial things that Kang did to fuck with his life and his money.

This is life-or-death stakes. They showed us that. Him and his brother are actually getting beat because of this debt on a regular basis. This is not a light issue. And so to set up all of that in the first two episodes, and then immediately pivot, by the third episode, to a bog-standard BL with these two just kind of flirtin’ with each other, and doing all the classic tropes, and Sailom apparently just fucking forgetting all the things that Kang did to him because of one isolated moment?

None of it made any sense to me. I felt like they flipped a switch and changed Sailom's character from episode 2 to 3, and he never came back. I stopped watching the show in episode 4, but I continued to follow the discourse, so I know that the real Sailom never came back.

I just don't understand what happened with this show. I don't understand how the same writers could have written those initial episodes and that set up and then carried out the show in the way that they did. I actually found it offensive. I am still pissed off about it! You can hear it in my voice, I'm sure! This was not a joke to me. I was very upset with what this show did. It's inexcusable.

Ben

Kill ‘em, bestie. [laughs]

NiNi

Murder them.

For me, the problem—the main problem with the show—was that the show was about Kanghan and it should have been about Sailom. That's really it in a nutshell. If the show was about Sailom, if it was about Sailom being the main character and you getting into Sailom’s head, and seeing Sailom’s life through Sailom’s eyes, and seeing how Sailom deals with his life, then that's the show that I wanted to see.

You're talking about the serious shit that's going down. Kang literally shows up at Sailom’s house with a gun! Have we forgotten about this?

Ben

After his friend said, “Bruh, I think the whole gun thing is maybe going too far.”

NiNi

None of these characters are consistent. The characters that are set up in the beginning, the ones that you are interested in, the stories that you think, “Okay, this is what they're setting up.” None of that happens. Those characters vanish basically overnight.

Saifah was set up to be this kind of charming, feckless older brother who can't be relied upon, but Sailom really loves him. He works with old people, and he kind of steals from them, and scams them a little bit. That's an interesting character. And then one day his debt collector sends a new guy, and the new guy is somebody he went to high school with. And I was like, “Well, this is about to be interesting!” [buzzer sound], I was wrong. No, it was not interesting.

Ben

It's really frustrating, because there's actually a fairly decent small plot in the middle of the show where Saifah has schemed his way into working for the same family. He's been dealing with a work related injury, and the grandma pays for some expensive European medicine for him. He doesn't realize this is for him, and he thinks about stealing it and replacing it with a generic. There’s a really interesting moment where he chooses not to steal from them and then learns that it was a gift intended for him, that is this really decent moment in the show which only further pisses me off.

Every now and then, this show seemed to understand some of the complex dynamics it was about, and then went right back to fuckin’ it up for no reason.

Shan

I think NiNi is right that the main problem was that the show should have been Sailom’s show and instead they made it about Kanghan, and I don't know why they did that. The first two episodes were clearly rooted in Sailom’s story, and that's what really, I think, threw me.

Ben

Chimon is also the older, veteran actor. Why didn't they believe in him? Like, he could have carried this show. I do not know why they decided to lean on Perth. This is the second time this year they have tried to lean on Perth and it has not been a good choice.

NiNi

I think that Perth is a good actor but he needs a strong lead. He's a follow, but he's a good follow if he has a strong lead. Trying to put him in the lead position? He works best when he's pulling off of somebody.

Shan

Mhmm. If they had let Chimon anchor this, and him follow, I agree with you, NiNi.

NiNi

And then why did they even bother View and June? Why did they make them get out of bed?

Ben

Ohh, are we talking about the teacher-student line between View and June? I'm not.

Shan

I'm so glad I was already gone for that! Whew! I don't even want to know.

NiNi

It wasn't even a thing, though!

Ben

I'm not discussing it, I will not.

NiNi

Listen, honestly, the best parts of the show were, A, the first two episodes, B, everything that Euro did? Euro was great. I loved Euro.

Ben

Okay. I will say that. Let us not walk away from this without shouting out Euro. They do not give big boys a lot of love and respect in this field and, Euro. You did good work, sir. You should have been allowed to kiss—which of the twins was in this?

NiNi

I think it was JJ.

Ben

JJ! You should have been allowed to kiss JJ in this show!

NiNi

I also did not hate Marc and Pawin in this. They were not bad.

Ben

They were not good. [laughs]

NiNi

I didn't say they—I said I didn't hate them, and they were not bad.

Shan

Damning with faint praise indeed.

NiNi

And you know how I feel about Pawin!

Ben

The problem with this is, again, like the pieces were there. But, did you know that a windmill—[all laugh]—cannot function without the wind? If you're tired of this bit in the podcast, watch the show!

Shan

You can only imagine the horrors awaiting you.

Ben

There's a class difference between Kanghan—did you know his name means ‘windmill’?—anyway.

And so there's a class difference between the two of them. And there's a class difference between Nawa, Pawin's character who's rich, and Guy, Marc's character who was poor. They're friends with the other leads. There was a real opportunity to tell a story about, how do these dynamics play out where people mix? There's an egalitarian aspect to all going to the same schooling system together, even if some of you are there by scholarship, or because your mom works for the place in the case of Euro's character Auto. Marc's character Guy, he's probably there on a football related scholarship because he's an athlete.

Like there's an interesting thing to say here, but they did nothing with it. It is such a waste of all the goddamn talent on this show, and it was a waste of 12 weeks of my life. This show was bad. This show was offensive. And this show was stupid.

All right, ratings.

NiNi

I gave it a…5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

Well, since I didn't actually finish the show, I didn't give it a formal rating, but y'all should know that it's, like, a 2 in my heart.

Ben

It is a 3 formally from me. I watched the whole fucking thing. It was shit and offensive. You get a 3 for that.

NiNi

So with 2, a 3, and a 5, I think that pulls you down towards the end of 3.5.

Ben

Oh yeah, it's bad.

NiNi

It's not good.

Ben

It's a 3.

Shan

Do not watch it.

Ben

Unless you need to understand that windmills require the wind to function.

NiNi

[Laughs] Oh, no.

Ben

And let's talk about the fucking ending of this trash piece of shit. The tag of this show is these two characters engaged in sex work play where the poor kid is playing an escort who has to take care of his rich client.

What the absolute fuck was this?

NiNi

I wanted to vomit.

Shan

I actually can't believe that happened. I saw it. I saw the GIFs on Tumblr, and I thought I was having a fucking hallucination or something.

NiNi

Sex work role play…Okay, anyway. So, on that note—

Ben

It's a chop!

Shan

Well that was a definite chop.

NiNi

Chop.

Ben

Three chops. [slams desk] It's over.

[NiNi laughs]

00:26:05 - Love In Translation

Ben

On to the next show—oh, good, it finally gets better. [laughs]

Shan

This is a good one!

Ben

All right, great.

NiNi

The next show on the list, now that we've gotten that out of the way, is Love in Translation. Ben, what is Love in Translation about?

Ben

Love in Translation is a workplace BL in which two characters from different backgrounds come together to run a convenience store in Bangkok. One of them's name is Phumjai. He is a Thai national who comes from a seemingly well off family, who is obsessed with an idol named Tammy. He learns that Tammy is interested in picking up a potential partner in Thailand, but she wants that partner to be able to speak Mandarin and she would like for that character to also be an entrepreneur. Seeing that there's a chance here with Tammy, he decides he wants to formally learn Chinese and goes to a, like, small business association meeting or whatever, to see about starting something up.

Meanwhile, we have Yang Yan Feng, who is a Chinese national who is here to open up a shop in a very specific point because of backstory reasons involving his dad, I guess. The two of these characters cross paths and don't end up liking each other at first, but circumstances come together, and the only Black character in Thai BL this year ends up connecting the two of them and they form a little shop together. Yang agrees to also teach Phumjai Mandarin and flirt with Tammy on his behalf. Very many hijinks ensue, but this show ended up being one of my favorites of the year.

Shan, you ended up really enjoying this show. Tell us the things you liked about the show in the early weeks when we were deciding whether or not we needed to give ourselves La Pluie-level brainrot over it to convince people to watch it.

Shan

It ended up being really enjoyable. I was a little bit more skeptical going in than Ben. I'm not as inclined to sitcom style in BL as Ben is. Like, I think you kind of find it very comforting and familiar, whereas I kind of feel it's sometimes an awkward match of styles, and so I wasn't quite as convinced going in that I was gonna love it. But I enjoyed it a lot, and I think what I liked so much about this show is that, at its core, it's really just about kind people who are mostly just doing their best to be decent to each other and do right by each other. And they have misunderstandings. And there's a lot of comedy in those misunderstandings. There's silly stuff. There's fights, including physical fights that get pretty outrageous. There's characters making mistakes, but it feels like everybody's really well-intentioned and really earnestly trying their best. And I just think it's kind of impossible not to like a show like that.

I also just really appreciated that this show—it had a good cast of characters. There was a lot of quirky folks. When I was watching it, I was reminded of shows like Superstore, where it's a little bit sitcom-y, you're in a store, you've got this big cast of personalities that you can kind of call on for comedy bits, as needed. And I thought it worked really, really well.

And the romance between Phumjai and Yang, it was really nice. They just kinda liked each other once they got past their initial misunderstandings, and they got more comfortable with each other over time as they worked together on this project—on this store. They really got to know each other.

Phumjai was fixated with this influencer Tammy originally, and he had a really natural progression away from that crush and toward developing feelings for Yang because of the authentic time that they were spending together and the real bond that they were building. And I always just find those kinds of romances really compelling. They're making something together, and that makes them want to be good to each other, and it makes them see the best in each other, and then become interested in each other. And I just think we don't get enough naturally building romances like that in the genre.

Ben

NiNi, since we successfully bullied you into watching this show, what did you think of it?

[NiNi laughs]

NiNi

It was deathly cute. I enjoyed every single minute of the show. I liked the internationalist perspective of it because you've got Odo and then one of the workers in the store, I think, is part Thai? And then Yang is Chinese, so there's some fun internationalist stuff happening in the show that you don't always see coming out of Thailand. Ngern was there.

Ben

Oh, are we talking about that now? For those of you who give a shit, who have been in the genre before 2gether the series, who were there before even SOTUS, Ngern Anupart, who played Earn in Love Sick the series, and also played the lead role in Waterboyy the movie, and was in a terrible Thai drama called Part Time this series, which we all attempted just for him.

Shan

Did you memorize that man's resume?

Ben

Of course.

NiNi

He did.

Ben

Ngern Anupart is back with us in BL, and he's swole now, girls. You should watch.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

I will say, I'm a Love Sick girlie. I did love Earn, the character in that. I love Ngern, the actor. I was very happy to see him in this. His character was perhaps the most annoying in this show. [laughs]

NiNi

I loved it!

Ben

It was so funny that he was so annoying! I loved him in this!

Shan

He played Phumjai’s brother, Phojai, who was a classic overbearing older sibling who just could not let Phumjai have any space to live and learn and make mistakes. He just was so on top of him all the time and making him lose confidence in a way that I think was well-intentioned, but just extremely wrong-headed. Just getting in the way of his brother's success as he was constantly professing his intention to do the opposite. It was a really good storyline, to be clear, like it was really well done.

NiNi

It was really great and the other great part is that the whole time he's dating Phumjai’s good friend who also works at the store, and they're kinda working together to make the store a success in the background but they're doing it all wrong. Phojai and Tag are adorable together, but Phojai’s a little closeted. So it gets a little complicated. But overall, it ended up being real cute. There is a fantastic gag with some disguises that I swear to God was so hilarious.

Ben

Highlight of the year for me. [laughs]

NiNi

This show was funny. It was sweet. It was… pretty hot, actually.

Shan

Right! High heat.

Ben

This show does comedy really well. The comedic timing of this show is so intentional. It was intentional when they were filming it, and it was intentional when they were editing it. It isn't perfect, but it's intentional and it lands really well. This show was so funny in the early episodes when it was leaning more into the sitcom bits.

NiNi

I found it funny all the way through, because I always find some of the humor in the pathos that comes later down the line. Like it was so funny when Phumjai and Yang went on the practice date because Phumjai is getting ready to go on this date with Tammy. And he's going on this practice date, and all he's thinking about on this practice date is, “What does Yang want to do?”

So he shows up at the practice date with green bread, a baseball mitt, like. [laughs] That's like, so much going on, and I'm like looking at it like, “Oh, this is so sweet and so funny because of course he would bring a freaking baseball mitt because he thinks that Yang would have a good time. This is adorable.”

And then the end, when Phojai gets kidnapped—follow us, girlies. Phojai gets kidnapped because Phumjai is paying off this debt—there's a little mafia shit going down in the end. But Phojai gets kidnapped for, like, months, and then when they finally pay off the kidnappers and they've released Phojai, you discover that Phojai has actually been kind of running the shit in the mafia for the last two months! [laughs] He’s become, like, a trusted lieutenant.

Of course you took over, because you are an elder sibling. This is what you do. You got them organized. You made them respect you. I respect that as an elder sibling myself. I was just like, “That's exactly what I would do.” It was so funny. I enjoyed it entirely all the way through. I did not mind Daou’s wig.

Shan

Thank you! Can we talk about the wig? This is very important to me.

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

No, because first I have to get very serious about how good the show actually was. We will undercut the seriousness of which I will talk about how good the show was with you talking about how terrible Daou’s wig was.

[NiNi laughs]

So, for those of you who listen to The Conversation podcast, you know that NiNi and I don't always see eye-to-eye when it comes to really huge power dynamic differentials between characters. This show is one of the very rare examples of a workplace set show where the workplace mattered and also the leads were equal to each other. One of the caveats of Thai economic politics is that foreigners cannot hold majority stake ownership in a Thai corporation. So despite Yang's wealth that he brings to the table and determination to open up a store in Thailand, he cannot have majority stake.

Phumjai, who doesn't bring any money to the table, brings the fact that he is a Thai national to the table. So the two of them have equal ownership in the store—Phumjai slightly has more. We think Phumjai might be a bumbling idiot, but when asked to hire people because Yang, even though he has business sense, he doesn't know anyone. Phumjai actually hires competent people to help out in the store. Yeah, sure, he hired a bunch of femmes, but he hired really competent people to work in their store, and was actively engaged with trying to make the store successful. He was doing rapid iteration of various marketing strategies to try to get customers to engage with their store. He doesn't use the formal language that Yang does, but he is trying his best, and bringing even his own little money he has to try and make the store’s opening as successful as possible.

His interest in Tammy is also grounded in something real. We thought he was just lusting after an idol, but he had had a weird meet-cute with her when she had visited Thailand as a tourist. She asked him just to show her around because she was a little bit lost, and he basically went on a date with Tammy when she first came to Thailand. So his crush on her wasn't grounded on just the persona she presents in her show as an idol. He had had a genuine interaction with her and connection with her. And when he finally approaches her properly, Tammy is also receptive to his advances. Sure, they get complicated by the fact that this is a BL and she's a girl—she can't win. But she also takes that in stride. She is a character that is not dismissed along the way despite being a girl in a BL.

This show was legitimately so good at managing its character dynamics and how the characters played with each other. The growth between Yang and Phumjai together and personally was really well handled. This show struggles a little bit on the back end by getting a little bit silly with Yang's debt and the [sigh] mafia shit, but legitimately, this is one of the better shows that aired this year.

Now let's talk about Daou's wig.

Shan

Thank you! I've been holding it in so bravely.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

Listen, listen! This is about respect. I need to pay respect to Daou, because that man had to wear this monstrosity of a bowl cut on his head. This horrible wig. The sideburns looked so fake. Every time you got a slight angle on the wig, you could tell that it was just a mop sitting on his head. Somehow he managed to deliver some of the hottest scenes of the entire year while he had that wig on his head. And you know, I just think that that deserves recognition.

Ben

Let's talk about the hottest scene of the year.

[NiNi laughs]

These people recognized that this was a show set in a convenience store—

Shan

Mmhmm.

Ben

—and they said, “Offroad and Daou,” and they were like, “Yeah, what's up?” “We need you guys to knock down these fucking shelves in this fucking convenience store, banging it out, because it's definitely a kink thing for Yang.” And they said, “Bet.”

Shan

In front of the security camera!

Ben

Yang absolutely has that footage saved somewhere.

Shan

[laughs] 100% he does.

Ben

I had an absolute blast with this show. This was legitimately one of my favorite shows of the year.

NiNi

I must concur, and I actually scored it a 10.

Ben

Holy shit.

NiNi

And the reason I scored it at 10 was that at the end they turned the store into a workers cooperative. So that gets 10 for me.

Shan

Bonus points from NiNi. [Shan and NiNi laugh]

Ben

All right, Shan, let's give it the real drama rankings.

Shan

I gave it an 8. I loved the show. I had a great time with it. Is undeniably messy, and the writing really went off the rails in the final couple episodes, and I can't pretend that that didn't happen. But I really loved it.

Ben

I gave the show an 8.5. The writing does unfortunately get a little bit messy towards the end. They didn't really know how to do the epilogue episode as cleanly as some of the more experienced teams do. But that's me being, like, fair from the drama ranking scale. In my heart, this show is a 9.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

This show was really good! It was a lot of fun to watch. People should go watch this show. It's a lot of fun.

NiNi

I am calling producer privilege to give the show a 9 from The Conversation.

Ben

I'm okay with it.

Shan

I'm good with it.

NiNi

We have an accord. Love in Translation gets a 9 from The Conversation. Daou and Offroad, thank you so much.

Ben

If you are a fan of BL, but you say you've gotten burned out on all of the school-based stuff, this is probably one of the better workplace shows.

But, at least you know, that a windmill…

[all laugh]

All right!

NiNi

Moving on.

00:41:14 - I Cannot Reach You

NiNi

Our next show—we have officially reached the Japanese portion.

Ben

Bangers Only section of this episode!

NiNi

The first show that we're going to talk about is an absolute banger: I Cannot Reach You. Ben, what is I Cannot Reach You about?

Ben

Oh, Shan gets this one.

NiNi

Shan!

Ben

Oh yeah!

NiNi

What is I Cannot Reach You about?

Shan

I Cannot Reach You Is a friends-to-lovers BL about two childhood friends who are in high school together, one of whom is a long-suffering pining gay boy, and one who is kind of an oblivious little chaos muffin. These character types might sound familiar to you, they are very common in Japanese BL. But what makes this story feel a little different is that it really sets out to deal with the deep angst that really comes in when you take friends to lovers seriously.

This is not a fluffy show, even though it is light throughout, they're really digging into the pain of being in love with your friend, the confusion of feeling your feelings for your friend start to change, the shock that can come along with it. Kakeru, who is the main character here, learns in episode one that his longtime best friend Yamato is in love with him, and this whole show is about his journey to accept and understand that, and then also figure out how he feels about it and how he might be open to their relationship changing.

It is, bar none, the best friends-to-lovers drama that I've ever seen in the BL genre. It is one of my absolute favorites of the year and on a short list of perfect shows that we got this year in BL.

Ben

NiNi?

NiNi

Well, damn. I love this unreservedly. I have, seriously, no notes. Actually, I have one note and the note that I wrote—I'm just gonna read it verbatim: I Cannot Reach You, to all of Japan, “Hey, guys, I'd like to introduce you all to this wonderful concept called talking. Please look at this adorable story about how talking can make your life better, and even help you find love.” [laughs] And that's my only note on I Cannot Reach You.

I agree with Shan. I think it's a perfect show. It's so cute. It's so deeply felt. It is so centrally angsty. It had me deep in my feelings in a way that I have not really felt since His - I Didn't Think I Would Fall in Love, which is another Japanese banger that I love. It's a great show, easy to catch up on. It's not very long. It is so perfect. It's perfectly balanced, perfectly paced, perfectly written, perfectly acted. I love it, unreservedly.

Ben

This was probably one of the best shows that I have ever watched in all of BL. Very few BLs actually properly capture the experience of being closeted as a kid in a way that is not triggering. I was closeted—we talked about this on the show. It sucks. Ohara Yamato was in love with his friend Ashiya Kakeru, and he did not make his attraction to Kakeru something that Kakeru had to deal with. It's other people, who are so irritated watching the two of them interact, who intervene and sort of force them to deal with this issue between them.

But here's the big thing. We can yell all day long about how characters should talk to each other and all this other stuff, and how communication is really important in romance and all these sorts of things. This is very true, but the thing is: when you're queer and you know the consequences of being publicly queer in this horrible, racist, homophobic hellscape, you don't want to force that on your friend. That's the crux of friends-to-lovers angst that is so critical.

Yamato really does love Kakeru, and he doesn't want to force Kakeru to deal with being queer. They don't say it directly, but that is a huge part of the hang up here. That is so perfectly captured in a way that is not triggering. It is so hard to be gay and alone when you're a teenager. There is a real complex restraint that grips you when you're 17 and gay and struggling, and in love with your best friend, where you don't want to be alone, and you really want to be with your friend. But being gay hurts, and you don't want to be responsible for inflicting that hurt on them, that I connected to directly in Yamato, that is portrayed so, so well by Maeda Kentaro.

And this show doesn't just do the whole “I love you” thing and then they make out or whatever. Like, “I liked you the whole time!” We watch Kakeru deal with the reality that he has to reframe his own relationship with one of his closest childhood friends. And he ends up finding attraction in himself as well, and he goes through the difficult process of that. That is not a switch that turns on. It's like, “Oh, shit, I guess I'm gay now because your desire for me is so strong.” What this show gets correct is, when you have a friends-to-lovers story, there's the drama of, “This relationship is really important to me, and most romances fail. Do I want to lose one of my critical relationships that underpins my understanding of who I am as myself for booty?” The answer in a lot of cases is no. That's a scary threshold to cross—your bestie is not your partner.

He considers what this means for their friendship and their relationship, and how there is a genuine need to respond to someone's feelings. That, even if he is your best friend, the way that he's felt like this about you for a long time means you can't just pretend that that wasn't there the whole time. Just because you were wrong about what you were perceiving in your friend doesn't mean you can just bottle it up and walk that shit back. It's so expertly handled in a way that is adorable.

Like both of you describe the show as cute, and that's sort of the point. This show managed to make some of the most difficult things about coming of age and being queer kind of palatable, and adorable, and really interesting to engage with. And it's so well done, the way that these boys play out the complexities here.

And then we get to Episode 6, and Shan will remember when Episode 6 aired, because I almost called her on her personal phone line after I finished Episode 6.

[NiNi and Shan laugh]

Shan

He was like, “sound the alarm, holy shit!” [laughs]

[NiNi laughs]

Ben

I was like, “Shan, There's a BL emergency! Get home quick!”

Shan

I was waiting to watch it until we had all the episodes and he was like, “Nope, no more waiting! Get on it right now!”

Ben

Episode 6 is probably the best single episode of BL of the whole year. Kakeru has a lot of self doubt as part of his character—really well executed—and he expresses that he can't understand why Yamato might like him, and Yamato gets angry about this, and is like, “Don't you know what you're worth?” and he throws Kakeru on the bed and has this moment where he crosses the line with him. And you can see possibly years of restraint breaking, and he kind of scares Kakeru. When he gets his senses back, he scares himself and flees, and has this whole breakdown where he despairs about this. This is so perfectly executed because that's how it feels when you're in the closet and you make a mistake and reveal yourself.

Shan

What's wild is that, that's just the end scene of episode 6. Episode 6 does so much shit even before that. This is the episode where Kakeru and Yamato have this conversation on the roof, where Yamato confesses. At this point they both kind of know what's going on, but Yamato comes right out and says, “This is how I feel. This is what's going on.” And then he does the classic BL thing of immediately after confessing, he tries to walk away because he doesn't wanna stick around to be rejected.

And, something amazing happens in that scene, which is that Kakeru is like, “Hey, bitch, get back over here! You gotta listen to what I have to say now. You don't get to just confess and then run away.” And I was, like, fist pumping when that happened because it was, first of all, just a brilliant subversion of a classic trope. And he says, “I wasn't gonna reject you. I am still kind of processing this. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I want to think about it. You're important to me.” And I just love that.

Like NiNi said earlier, “Wow, the power of talking to each other instead of just having your emotional outburst and then running away—actually trying to communicate.” And that's so much of what this show is about. The moments where these two characters are able to communicate with each other clearly and get their real feelings across, that is when they are able to make progress in their relationship, and there are lots of characters in the show who are reinforcing that along the way.

Hosaka is probably the fan-favorite character. He's kind of the wise queer kid off to the side. He's got his little barrette in his hair. He's watching, he's perceiving, and he's really pushing—quite forcefully, actually [laughs]—the two lead characters to, like, talk to each other and get their shit together.

My personal favorite side character is Yamato's sister: Mikoto. She is just this quiet presence who has always had her brother's number on this, and knows exactly what's going on, and really chooses her moments to show up and be a mirror to him of what she's seeing, what he's doing, and make him think, and even give him some courage. She even has a couple scenes where she does the same for Kakeru. She's a great sister character of a type that we don't get to see very much and I really appreciated her.

NiNi

This show’s a banger. There's no reason not to watch it. Watch the damn show.

Ben

This show also released the sexual tension in a way that J-BLs very rarely do, particularly not in this lane of J-BL.

Shan

And it did it beautifully.

And I feel like we should talk a little bit about the visuals of this show. I'm not someone who normally even notices a lot of visual style. I’m a words person. I really am pretty dialogue-focused, and I don't usually notice a lot that's going on with the visual effects in the show, but this one used them so effectively that even I kind of keyed in.

Ben

So this show uses a bokeh effect, which is this thing where you play with the focus of the camera to make these blurry lights appear. This is very common in anime to show that a character is experiencing heightened emotion. Like the emotions are sparkling out of them, and the show color-coded the boys's visual effect to reflect when they were experiencing intense emotion. It’s very obvious to the audience when the moment turns for Kakeru. Yamato is bursting with emotion from the first goddamn episode, and when it starts to happen for Kakeru, we're finally—“Oh, finally, these bitches are both on the same page.”

The other fun visual gag in the show is, very early on there’s this moment at, like, an arcade or whatever, where Yamato gets a stuffed animal for Kakeru, which is part of him thinking he wants to be with this girl. He ends up keeping the stuffed animal and the stuffed animal ends up becoming the audience stand in. So, like, whenever a moment happens between the boys, they cut to the stuffed animal whose arms they've moved to create a different expression—him either being, like, overwhelmed with kilig feelings about the boys being cute, or aghast feelings [laughs] about something untoward suddenly going on. It's a great running visual gag.

NiNi

This show is awesome. It gets at 10. What were you guys’ scores?

Shan

Perfect 10, baby!

Ben

For those of you who don't know, NiNi and I are far more loose with our 10s than Shan. Shan is a stingy bitch when it comes to 10s.

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Shan

Understatement. I have watched over 400 dramas. I have given out eleven 10s total, but this show is one of them.

Ben

I also gave this show a 10.

NiNi

Okay, so I Cannot Reach You gets a 10 from The Conversation and we are on to the next one.

00:54:43 - My Personal Weatherman

NiNi

The next show that we're going to talk about on this what is definitely going to be a monster episode is My Personal Weatherman. Who wants to take this one? Ben or Shan, who is telling us what My Personal Weatherman is about?

Shan

Ben’s definitely gotta do this one.

Ben

My Personal Weatherman is a very kinky BL where a local weather forecaster has a live-in boyfriend who is an erotic manga artist. They have a very Dom/sub, and they are not very good at talking to each other. They actually do say a lot to each other in this show. They just constantly misunderstand each other—very refreshing for Japan. Segasaki is the weatherman who provides for them. Yoh is the manga artist who is very much struggling. Yoh sees himself as kind of a slave—he doesn't really necessarily enjoy the sort of housewife role he's been placed into, and resents that they seem to only have sex when it [doesn’t] rains?

He pretends like he doesn't want to have sex with Segasaki, but then he has a whole blow up because they end up in a sunny [rainy] season where it doesn't rain a lot and has a whole breakdown episode where he just masturbates furiously for a whole afternoon because they haven't had sex in a while. It's a very fun reveal that the reason why they don't have sex is because that's what Segasaki thought they needed to do, which has really good payoff in, like, the next episode or two later.

This show was a little bit complicated to talk about and watch. This very obvious kink dynamics going on in this, but people who are more familiar with Japanese home dynamics say some of this is actually fairly normal for husband and wife dynamics. And the show ends a little bit abruptly, which is part of my consternation with it. I kind of liked a lot of what the show was doing. I unfortunately watch too much BTS stuff, and it was revealed that some of the things that were going on with Segasaki were kind of improvised by a Higuchi Kohei, who plays Segasaki, which I think muddles some of the messaging of the show.

But before we get deeper into that sort of stuff, NiNi, I know I bullied you to watch the show, and Japanese BL is not always your forte—reactions and thoughts on this show?

NiNi

So you're right that they are communicating, they're just willfully misunderstanding each other. I found that incredibly frustrating. But I still like the show. I did. I did like the show. I think that the miscommunications that they're having, because they are talking and miscommunicating that way, I am less annoyed by the miscommunication. If they were just not talking, it would be like a completely different thing.

And then I like the settings. I like the side characters. I like the main characters. I like that Yoh cannot cook and Segasaki loves to eat his food anyway. Yoh’s a terrible cook, like terrible, like— [laughs] it's so bad, and Segasaki literally eats everything that Yoh will make with a smile on his face because he loves him so much.

Shan

He ruined a curry. I don't even know how you do that.

Ben

That's really impressive. Curry’s so easy. His curry was crunchy! Gurl.

NiNi

I think the thing that I'm not sure comes across, but in your description of the show, is that they've been together for a while. This show stretches on a little bit. It shows how they ended up together?

Ben

One of the things we got clarification on is like their cohabitation is fairly recent. The offer was made when they were still students, but the cohabitation is recent.

Shan

Which we didn't find out until almost the end of the show.

NiNi

Segaki thinks that he's being clear with Yoh. Yoh, because of, I guess, self-esteem issues or whatever it is is completely misreading the very direct words I think that Segasaki is using, but Segasaki is also being direct, but not entirely clear. So it's not that it's easy to misunderstand, but you could see how misunderstandings could happen. Yoh is kind of withholding even if he's saying things.

Segasaki is picking up a completely different kind of thing from what Yoh is saying, because he thinks that they're in a loving relationship, while Yoh thinks that they're in a weird master-servant dynamic. So, they're in a relationship. They're just, they're in two different relationships. And so they're talking past each other.

Yoh doesn't understand why Segasaki won’t be certain affectionate ways with him, and the minute that it becomes that Yoh actually expresses that in a way that Segasaki understands, he completely changes the way that he behaves towards Yoh. And he does do that softness and affection and stuff with him because he didn't know that that was what Yoh wanted. He thought that what he was doing was what Yoh wanted. It's similar to how Yoh is reading Segasaki.

I found it interesting. Frustrating, yes, I will not deny that I found it frustrating. But I found the way that they chose to deal with the miscommunication trope, which is a big trope that Japan uses—which is a lot of times why I have trouble with Japanese BL, because miscommunication frustrates the shit out of me—but I think that the way that it was used in this show was very clever, and I liked how they move past it. I think that how they moved past it was also very interesting.

So yeah, I think the show was pretty good. I would score it highly.

Ben

Shan, thoughts on the show?

Shan

So [sigh], sometimes, in BL fandom, I think that we as an audience latch on to the idea of a show, and then kind of give a show credit for our idea of what it's doing instead of what it's actually doing. And this is one of those shows for me. It's not a fave.

I liked a lot about the show—a lot of the things that NiNi just mentioned—I thought were interesting. Like, miscommunication trope is not my favorite, but it's hugely Japanese for cultural reasons, for language reasons, so I'm very used to it—and I've seen really good executions of it. This show, I feel, did not have the quality of writing that it needed to support the complexities of what it was trying to do with these characters. And that showed through a lot, there were a lot of cracks in this show.

You kind of alluded to one earlier, Ben, about how there were—what I perceived while watching—there were some inconsistencies in characterization in Segasaki in particular. And we learned from the BTS that that actually probably was an actual inconsistency, because it wasn't in the writing, these differences in how he was appearing in these different time periods. It was something the actor was just trying out on his own, and they kind of just let him do that.

There were lots of instances of dropped threads or missing context to understand the characters' reactions and things. I read some awesome gap filler, thoughts, explanations, and interpretations of what we could make of the characters behaving in certain ways. To use an old Internet term: that's called ‘fanwanking,’ and that is when the fans of a thing have to do a lot of extra work to figure it out and explain it because the show has not done that work itself. And that, for me, was kind of the bottom line with this show. It didn't do all of its work, and I think that a lot of us were so intrigued by the premise—were so into the visuals of the show, liked the pair, liked the characters enough, to fill in those gaps and still really enjoy it. But for me, the show didn't get to the level of quality that it was aspiring to, and it didn't quite work for me, in the end.

On top of some of those gaps that I think were kind of there throughout the show. You said earlier, Ben, I think, that it ended abruptly. It's not just that it ended abruptly, it didn't finish its story. It felt very unfinished. To me it felt like an intentional grab for a season 2—a play to try to get the fans wanting more so that they could maybe get funding for a season 2? And hey, if that's what they're going for, power to them. I hope they get the money. I'd really like to see them finish the story. But, I would have liked more if they would have actually finished the story initially that they were trying to tell. This show for me, it tried some things. It was interesting. It was enjoyable to watch.

Ben

[laughs] She said, “Girl, you tried.”

Shan

It’s a little bit of a Girl, You Tried for me! I'm not gonna lie, it is!

Ben

Here's what I'll say. I don't think all of the pieces of the show work together as seamlessly as they wanted them to. However…I don't care. [laughs]

I liked what the show is trying to do. I really liked the really messy relationship between them. I like that Drama Shower went with a show about two people who are trying to be together and failing miserably at it. I do like what the show was attempting to do. I find myself far more forgiving to the show because it was trying things that BL doesn't do very often. I also just really liked episode 4, where Man-san comes to their house.

Shan

Yes, let's talk about Man-san, best character in the show. [laughs]

Ben

It was one of my favorite moments of the year, the bit where she knocked at the door and Yoh panics, and Segasaki’s like, “Oh so she’s here?” and he starts stretching. He's like, “Don’t worry.” Like he’s ready to fight this woman [NiNi laughs] who he believes that Yoh was having a secret romance with on the side, and then the door opens and—she's been a Segasaki stan for a while. And they have this really great comedic overlay of [laughs], “Oh my God. I'm at my idol's house.” And all he does is charm the shit out of her for the whole episode, and piss Yoh off because he thinks Segasaki's flirting with her.

I had so much fun with this show. This is the closest I come to a vibes rating. I tend to be forgiving with shows that are trying things that are fresh in the genre—or at least underexplored. And so, we’re mostly rating this show on the fact that it executes high heat in a believable way, for the most part, and was generally a really watchable eight weeks. I had a lot of fun with this show.

Shan

Mmhmm. I hope they get their season 2. I wanna see them finish it.

NiNi

I ended up giving this an 8. I think it was pretty good. The parts that I liked I really liked, and the other parts were just kind of a meh for me. ‘Meh’ is always going to be worse than ‘bad,’ for me anyway, unless it's offensive. So it drags it down from what could have been a 9 to an 8 for me.

Shan, how about you?

Shan

In a shocking twist, I gave it a higher score than NiNi. I gave it an 8.5. Maybe because I, like you, Ben, appreciated what it was trying to do and wanted to give it a little credit for that.

Ben

I gave My Personal Weatherman an 8.5. So it can get an 8 from The Conversation. It's fine.

NiNi

So My Personal Weatherman gets an 8 from The Conversation, and on we go.

01:07:01 - If It's With You

NiNi

Our next show that we're talking about is If It's With You.

Ben

Oh! We're back to bangers! Let's continue!

Shan

I got it!

If It's With You is about Amane, a high school student who fucks… You want me to say more than that?

Ben

No. You are correct, bestie, and this show is perfect.

[NiNi laughs]

This show opens up with a high schooler having ill-advised sex with an older character, who's about to move to the countryside with his grandma. And his last hookup is like, “It's been really fun tearing that ass up. But maybe, when you move to this little, small seaside town, you can have a normal high school romance.” And he scoffs at the notion of someone like him ever having a high school romance, but little does he know he's in a five-episode MBS BL, and that's exactly what's in store for him!

And it's great! He moves to the little seaside town. He immediately runs into a really hot guy who's super sweet, falls for him, and it ends up being mutual.

Shan

I like that this show is a twist on the classic romance trope of goin’ to a little seaside town, meetin’ someone unexpected, fallin’ in love. Like, there's hardly a more classic romance trope—we've all seen it a million times. But what was nice about it is that we had this young character who was already kind of jaded, and just didn't think that love was something he was interested in. And we got to see him form a really genuine connection with somebody—that was initially based on thinking he was hot and wanting to fuck him. Yeah, Amane definitely wanted to have sex with Ryuji. He made it kind of clear.

One of my favorite things the show did was Amane is not in the closet. He's not ashamed of who he is, and he made sure that Ryuji knew, first that he was gay, and second that he wanted to be physically involved with Ryuji. He told him that straight up, and kind of braced himself for rejection because, as we learned, he had been rejected for that in the past by other friends. And then we get to see Ryuji react to that, and process it, and be like, “Okay, that's cool. I don't know that I can really reciprocate that right now, but I want to keep hanging out. Is that alright with you?” What a cool response to that. What a way to be, Ryuji, I love that! And then we got to just see them build a relationship from there. It felt very genuine.

NiNi

Amane is one of my favorite types, which is a masking sad boy. He's a sad boy who is pretending to be happy, and pretending to not care. Basically, he's putting on this front of being carefree when he's actually a very sad, very hurt boy, and Ryuji clocks that immediately and tells him, “Yo, you don't gotta do all of that around me. It's fine if you’re sad.” At that point I was not only in love with the show, I was in love with Amane.

In fact, my only critique of the show is, I think, at the very, very end it pulled its punch. But… basically, Amane is one of my favorite characters of the year, and there's so much about Ryuji, too. Ryuji is a kid who's lost his dad, and he works with his mom in the restaurant where his dad used to cook. Literally, his dad is the one who taught him to cook, and now he cooks in the restaurant, and sometimes he doesn't go to school because he has to work in the restaurant, and his house is a little chaotic. But there's one corner where his dad's shrine is, which is spotless.

Guys, if I start thinking about this show too much, I'm actually gonna cry. I think the show touched me somewhere very deep, and it's a thing that I'm still thinking about, even if, as I said, I think it pulled its punches a little bit at the end, it stayed with me. Also, some of the greatest set design. Y’all know I love Japanese set design. It's a fantastic example of set design.

Ben

Continuing the conversation we had with I Cannot Reach You about how it's very difficult to be gay when you're young. Amane tried to have the youth thing that Heartstopper indicates that we could potentially have, and Amane is crushed for it—the way many of us are crushed—accidentally! The best thing about the way Amane gets crushed is that his friend crushes him without realizing he did—excellent gay angst. Top tier. I feel the old wounds festering. It's great.

NiNi

[laughs] Why are you like this?

Ben

[laughs]

So Amane is not well, and he's doing what many of us do: he skips it. Gay people who are closeted do not get to have high school romances. We don't get used to people perceiving us and what it means to be a couple. We skip so much of this, and then you become an adult, and these anonymous hookups—that are not very meaningful—and they can feel weird, because you're trying to be vulnerable with someone, and they don't want that. And it sucks to try and have intimate moments with other gay people that feel like transactions. It makes you feel cheap about yourself, and Amane understood that. And he's gorgeous. He's a funny, thoughtful, heartfelt little boy, and he already thinks he is just someone else for other people to hook up with.

Shan

I just want to say NiNi’s right that they pulled their punch at the end, and it's why this show isn't perfect for me. I loved it a lot, but the show started, as we’ve mentioned, with a character for whom sexual intimacy—sexual desire—was a big part of just how he lived, how he thought of himself, what he liked to do. And I don't like it when shows explicitly or implicitly imply that serious relationships, true love, do not have a sexual component. That sex is something salacious and dirty, and that love is something pure. And I think, because the show pulled its punches at the end here on the sexual relationship between Amane and Ryuji, I think that's a little bit of the implicit message that they put out there. And I don't love that. So I do have to ding them for that. They didn't finish strong.

Ben

I do agree in that regard and it was very unfortunate for this show that I Cannot Reach You finished, like, two weeks later. [laughs]

Shan

It really didn't help this show that I Cannot Reach You came up on its tail and did it better.

Ben

I really like the show. I really like the way that it set up a very initial premise of “maybe you should try a real romance, kid.” Like, you're still a kid. You can still have a good romance. It doesn't matter that you failed once: A great message to all the little gays out there, old and young. You can still have worthwhile romance. Shiro got to have a great relationship with Kenji at like 47!

Shan

There it is! I've been waiting for it! It's amazing! You made it two hours without it. Two whole hours before you did it.

Ben

I was trying so hard, bestie. I really was. I was really trying not to mention What Did You Eat Yesterday? in this episode. [laughs]

NiNi

I knew once we hit Japanese BL, it was only a matter of time.

Ben

I was trying so hard, y’all. Like, they were talking about the way this man couldn't cook, and I was like, “Ooh, I can't mention What Did You Eat Yesterday?”

[Ben and Shan laugh]

Y’all got me so conscious about my favorite show! They dragged me, y'all! They ate me up! They tore me to pieces!

But seriously, in terms of, like, messaging, I agree. They muddled it a little bit, but I really like Amane's arc.

It's good! One of my favorites of the year. Let's go around the room. Ratings! NiNi?

NiNi

I give it a 10.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 9.5.

Ben

I also gave it a 9.5. I think it is a Conversation 9.5 because we all agree that it muddled the waters on Amane’s relationship with sex as it pertains to Ryuji.

NiNi

I concur. So, it's a 9.5 from The Conversation for If It's With You.

01:15:38 - Absolute Zero

NiNi

And now we are into the shit. [laughs]

Ben

Oh, oh shit! Oh fuck! It's two hours into this! I have almost finished my daiquiri. I am drunk.

[NiNi laughs]

Let's talk about Absolute Zero!

NiNi

You're gonna get exactly three minutes on Absolute Zero, okay?

Ben

Oh, sure, that's all I need.

NiNi

I'm not letting you get into another New Siwaj thing. [laughs] Should be easy, because I didn't watch it, and Shan and Ben did not finish it. Ben, tell us what Absolute Zero is about.

Ben

Absolute Zero is a time travel BL in which a gay man in his 30s… No, he's technically 26. Oh my God. A 26 year-old gay man! His partner, who he lives with, has an accident. He's in a coma. He's having a bad time. And then a magic taxi takes him to the past, and then he does nothing for six episodes except date the younger version [laughs] of his boyfriend, and confuse the fuck out of them. And then apparently a bunch of time travel nonsense happens after this, and I had to be forcibly dragged off of this show [Shan laughs] because the clowns were worried for me.

We don't need to talk about the show. Shan, you don't need to talk about it? NiNi, you don’t need to talk about it. I'm gonna look directly into the camera.

[NiNi laughs]

New Siwaj, you had multiple opportunities this year to do something meaningful. I have had to sit here across from NiNi for over a year as Tee Bundit has put out three different shows, 2 and one half of which I thought flopped in one way or another. [Shan laughs] You had multiple opportunities to give me something useful to talk about with NiNi on this podcast, and you failed me, sir.

This was your chance to do Until We Meet Again-style BL again, and you should have given us all something sad and melancholy to reflect over as a real good capstone of this year and you [starts yelling] fucking blew it for all of us!

I cannot believe you, sir. You've wasted so much of our goddamn time. I cannot believe you embarrassed me on this podcast like this.

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

New Siwaj is having whatever the opposite of a renaissance year is.

NiNi

Ooh.

Ben

So bad. Like, you should have thrived under these circumstances. This is your bread and butter: caring way too much about little shit, but you didn't get any of the big shit right. This was a terrible experience. Literally, only two other people we know of finished your goddamn show.

Shan

And they hated it, every minute!

Ben

They had nothing positive to say about it. For over two months, this was horrible. What an absolute waste of genuinely good talent at every level of this production. Reportedly, everyone gave decent performances, and you wasted them on this empty drivel. What the fuck was this? You had four years of having the rights of the story. You had the actual writer of the novel on staff helping you write the goddamn script. And it was still this stupid empty mess, which apparently ends at none of it really occurring, but everyone having some sort of form of temporal PTSD? Like this was a 12 week Star Trek episode? What the absolute fuck was this?

[NiNi laughs]

Shan

I have nothing to add.

NiNi

Hydrate, baby, hydrate.

Ben

Oh, girl you know I got my water right here.

This show gets no rating from The Conversation. We DNF’d this show. We will never be going back to this show.

I will allow the rest of you to offer additional commentary. Proceed.

NiNi

So, Ben, is this breakup gonna stick?

Shan

Yeah, right.

Ben

We have talked about this girl.

[NiNi laughs]

He's got a whole college BL with all of the B- and C-listers at GMMTV coming out in the spring. I gotta watch this fucking shithow, don't you worry.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

Shan

There never has been a break up, and there never will be a breakup. Let’s just be clear.

NiNi

They’re the couple that fights in the street, and then the next day they're all boo’d up. I hate you so much.

Ben

We are what they thought they were doing with Cher and Top in Only Friends.

Shan

Mew and Top.

NiNi

[laughs] I’m so mad that you called it Cher in Only Friends!

Ben

Oh, Mew and Top. Right, right, right, right, right, right.

[NiNi laughs]

It gets a 0 from The Conversation!

Shan

An Absolute Zero.

NiNi

An Absolute Zero.

Ben

Oh man, I didn't make another windmill joke during If It's With You—If It's With You is about how— [laughs]

A windmill!

[laughs harder]

NiNi

I am so done with you. I am moving on. We are moving on.

01:21:05 - My Dear Gangster Oppa

NiNi

We're moving on to—I am just calling it ‘the main event.’

Ben

No, no, I'll do it, because you have to describe this one. You're gonna take this L, bestie.

[NiNi laughs]

On to our next show: My Dear Gangster Oppa. NiNi, tell us about [laughs] My Dear Gangster Oppa.

NiNi

My Dear Gangster Oppa is the B-movie’s B-movie. My Dear Gangster Oppa is a Thai BL based on a Korean webtoon that I have not read—because I never read these things—but I do know that it's based on a Korean webtoon, so I get a point for that. It is about the titular gangster oppa, Tew, and the titular dear, Guy.

They meet playing some kind of mobile game virtually and they somehow become sort of close, or at least close enough that when the gaming team decides that they're going to meet in real life, all the other gamers are like, “Guy, you ask Oppa to come to the meet up, because he'll come if you ask him to.” Well, at that point they thought it was a her because Oppa plays with a female avatar because of reasons.

Ben

Naive assumptions.

NiNi

[laughs] The point of the matter is Oppa’s a gangster, like legit—guns, beatings, stabbings.

Ben

He has murdered people!

NiNi

He has absolutely killed people, and Guy is just a sad gay boy in love with his bestie since high school…

I'm sorry guys, I'm doing a terrible job of describing the show.

Shan

It's not you, NiNi, it's the show!

Ben

I'll back you up. It starts off as a show about gamers, and two of them falling for each other, and then decides to become a shitty mafia BL.

NiNi

[gasps]

Shan

A boring mafia BL.

Ben

There it is. It becomes a boring mafia BL.

NiNi

Shan and Ben are stabbing me through the heart right now. I just want to let you, the listeners, know.

Ben

Well, how about you climb over the wall wearing your kneepads and drop onto—[Ben and NiNi laughs]—the mattress?

NiNi

That's why it's a B-movie’s B-movie, Ben!

Shan

No, listen. NO!

NiNi

Okay, the show had—the show had ideas.

Ben

Did it?

NiNi

It had ideas. Some of the ideas were really good. The execution of the show is terrible. Some of it is terrible. I—okay, it's all terrible by accident. Like none of this is done on purpose. Do not get me wrong. It is very, very bad.

Ben

They hired the most juiceless boys, and then pretended that they had juice. That was not good. Like if you had—

Oof. I have my own read. Finish talking about your little show you had fun with before I cut it to pieces.

NiNi

This show is not good. It's not good. I am not defending it on any type of quality grounds. I just enjoyed the fuck out of it. That's all I'm saying. It was trash. You could see all the seams, as Ben has intimated. You can see the stuntee's knee pads and elbow pads. You can see them throwing themselves off of things and falling onto the barely-hidden mats. Oh my God, it's so bad. It's so bad that I laughed my ass off for eight weeks. I'm sorry, I had a good time.

Shan

Let me give NiNi some credit. I just binged this show this week, and I was genuinely having fun with it for the first half—the same vibe that NiNi’s talking about. Like I was, like, “This is hilariously bad, but it's kind of funny.”

[laughs] We have to talk about the bright orange scar makeup.

Ben

Do we?

Shan

Did they not have red or black in their makeup kits? They put these fucking neon orange scars on him [laughs], and it was the worst thing I've ever seen. But it’s like, that kind of shit is funny, it was a good time. But the show's biggest sin to me is not that it wasn't good. It was never going to be good. It's that it got so fucking boring, because it abandoned all the funny elements—the fun and silly and wacky things it was doing in the beginning with, like, the gamers—and treating the difference between them in some ways so seriously, and in some ways so deeply unseriously. That dichotomy was kind of fun.

But then in the second-half of the show, it becomes all about this fucking mafia plot, and it was terrible. Like, it—it was terrible because it was so boring. The energy just sucked straight out of the screen every time I had to sit through these long ass scenes of Oppa talking to these different mafia guys about what they were mad about and why. I never gave a single shit. It was horrible. And that is why the show pissed me off, because it was fun, and then it decided to just be this dull nothing.

This show, like Oppa, needed to quit the gangster life.

NiNi

[laughs] When I tell you, I actually screamed. Like, my sister had to come check on me.

Shan

It was all downhill from that line. That was the peak of the show.

NiNi

[laughs] How dare you? The show had a budget of $47.18 and it spent all of it on that scar prosthetic.

Ben

I watched this with Aiden, who you may have heard on the I Told Sunset About You episode. Aiden could not remember Tew’s name, and once he started wearing those horrible suspenders [laughs] Aiden just started calling him Urkel for the rest of our watches.

NiNi

Now you see, that's fun.

Ben

Shan refused to learn his name and just called him ‘Oppa’ the whole time.

Shan

I stand by it.

NiNi

It's the B-movie’s B-movie. It's like B-exponential, like B-to-the-power-of-B. Okay, I'm sorry. I am that girl.

Ben

You heard many a Gay Rant from me over the last year. New rant unlocked for The Conversation: Gamer Rant.

NiNi

Oh, no.

Shan

Oh, boy.

Ben

We don't talk about this on the podcast, but I have a very long history of being very involved with a very specific video game. I have deep and meaningful relationships with other gamers. I was the best man at a gamer wedding where sixteen of us showed up. We were deep at that wedding—we had our own goddamn table. And I showed up as the only representative at a smaller wedding to make sure that one of us was present to witness the event.

Gaming relationships are so important to me because when you're a weirdo and you don't fit in, It's easy to become close with people very quickly online because you're anonymous. They don't know anything about you. This show ends up abandoning all the interesting things about this weird collection of people who had found each other through this game, and decided to meet up together and extend that relationship into meatspace, to then become the weirdly worst mafia BL we've seen in a while, which was so twisted because the show clearly likes action film, and then embarrassed itself trying to mimic them. And clearly cared about violence, because Tew has a legitimately violent history that is handled with far more seriousness than even something like KinnPorsche did.

There was so much that was way more interesting than being a shitty action schlock BL that this show could have been by starting with the gaming component, and it was legitimately infuriating for me to see this show use it as a cheap way to say these guys know each other, to then do nothing interesting with the mafia shit.

I hate this show, so much. This is one of the worst shows we watched this season because this show could have been a fun action schlock B-movie if it was a fucking movie. But it asked for eight fucking weeks from me. I spent eight hours with this motherfucker—I had a lot of time to think about this shit. This show sucks way more than it even realizes that it sucks, and that's really the sad part about it all. This show is one of the worst [laughs] shows I watched in this season and I hate it.

NiNi

Shan, Ben is gamer offended, among other things.

Shan

I do think this show would have been a lot better if it was about the gamers instead of about the mafia.

Ben

There was a real opportunity for them to just only talk about their team stuff and for all of Tew’s gangster shit to be lore going on in the background, cause when you're hanging out with your homies online, their real lives are lore. Like, NiNi is in school. That means nothing to me.

[NiNi laughs]

“Is she gonna be present for this show? Oh, wait. No. She's gotta worry about, like, her real life stuff with her family or her school or our podcast. Well, shit, NiNi's busy. I guess I can't bug her to watch this tiny Taiwanese BL that I really like. It's not that important.”

Shan does really cool shit in her real life. That means nothing to me! “Shan, are you available to watch this Japanese BL that I really like?” That's all I care about.

Shan

Always bestie, always.

Ben

That's the point. Gaming friendships—we don't really know what people do in their day-to-day lives. Like it would have been legitimately funny if Tew was, like, never lying about shit. Like, “Yeah, we just had a really weird stuff. Like, a guy came into the store. I had to, like, beat the shit out of four guys. I might have killed one of them. Whatever. We got rid of his body.” And they would be like, “Haha! Whatever! It’s time for practice.” If they had legitimately focused on whatever gaming shit they were concerned about and all of Tew’s mafia shit happened in the background as just fan fiction we all made-up, this would have been a fucking excellent show.

But instead it was this disaster that ended up offending me way more than I expected it to. Fuck this show!

On to Wahl, who was one of the characters I hate the most this year. Oh, I got words for that motherfucker. Don't think we're getting out of this recording without me going off about Wahl. Fuck that dude. I hate this dude so much. This character is not redeemable to me. Wahl only cares about Guy at the point at which Guy remains under his control. And the grossest thing this show did was have him accept that he can no longer control Guy, and then imply that he ends up with another guy at the end to perpetuate this cycle he has. He is so fucking vile. I hate him so fucking much.

Shan

I would just like to say that I concur on Wahl. That guy fucking sucks, and I hated him from maybe the second episode.

Ben

As soon as he did that stupid seal dance, I was like, “I hate this man!” [laughs]

Shan

You are done.

Ben

I'm like, “That's not even a whale, you stupid son of a bitch! Get outta here!”

Shan

He was a shitty friend, and as always, I got salty about him being forgiven without having to pay any consequences for his shitty behavior.

NiNi

We all agree that Wahl sucks. [laughs] We can agree on that. [laughs]

Ben

Does anyone have anything else to say about this terrible show before we move on?

NiNi

I am continuing to defend it. I will give it a 6.5.

Ben

Shan?

Shan

I gave it a 5.

Ben

I gave it a 4.

NiNi

So, Shan, by The Price is Right rules, you win [laughs] and the show gets a 5.

Shan

Feels right.

01:33:32 - Middleman's Love

NiNi

Moving on to our final show, and the one we all just finished today—well Ben and I finished. Shan watched the beginning and the end, which I think is a delightful way to watch this show.

Shan

I am very happy with my choices.

NiNi

So we all watched Middleman's Love. Yes, you might have heard me say on an earlier episode of this podcast that I would not be watching Middleman's Love. However, you should mind your business, because just because I said it doesn't mean it's happening.

Ben

I say I break up with New Siwaj every single season of the show. [NiNi and Shan laugh] It's whatever. We don't care.

NiNi

So I watched Middleman's Love, and I have actual real thoughts. But first we gotta tell the people what Middleman's Love is about. So, Ben, take it away.

Ben

Middleman's Love is a spin off from Bed Friend. Jade is a middle child and used to being overlooked by his family and his friends. They've got some interns at work. He doesn't realize that his intern has an enormous crush on him, and so is using his fudanshi eyes to try and hook him up with another intern, and slowly comes to realize the intern actually has legitimate feelings for him as we unpack Jade's own hang ups as it comes to love.

While there are a lot of things I ended up enjoying, the show attempts to be comedic in a way that was really divisive and it ends up being kind of a mixed bag. Bed Friend is a really dramatic show, and while I don't think all of us currently here agree about how well Bed Friend did these things, Middleman's Love as a really comedic tonal shift doesn't always work because they're relying on Yim to be comedic as Jade in a way that makes you ask legitimately as Shan likes to say, “Why would anyone want to fuck this man?”

Shan

[laughs] Well, I did wonder why anyone would want to fuck this guy.

Ben

And that is honestly a legitimate question to ask early on in this. This ends up getting a little bit of Cheewin’s stuff—and I’ll let NiNi have that part—’cause she's much kinder to Cheewin about this than I am. But that's basically the gist of it. Jade is a middle child who's used to being overlooked and playing supporting role to other people who comes to realize that he can have love, too.

NiNi, your thoughts on the show?

NiNi

That's it in a nutshell. I have a lot of thoughts on this show because it helped me clarify a lot of things about Cheewin.

Now I get to say some lore and some BTS stuff because I know things too, Ben. This was originally cast with Jimmy and Tommy, with Tommy as Jade and Jimmy as Mai.

Ben

That would have been way better. [laughs] That would have been way better!

NiNi

Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. While I think that Tommy would have made a better Jade, I actually prefer Tutor’s Mai to what we probably might have gotten out of Jimmy.

I have a lot of Cheewin feelings about this show, because some of the things that I enjoy about Cheewin is that he likes to examine artifice and performance, and the things that we're hiding when we put on these big personas and personalities. And he explores that through a lot of sometimes-cringey humor, which I really like. It's the Secret Crush on You thing. It's certain parts of Make It Right. It's certain bits of Bed Friend?

Basically, Cheewin likes to look at artifice and then puncture it. Cheewin likes to look at what makes people present weird and unpack that, and he likes to unpack that using sex because I think that Cheewin thinks—and I kind of agree—that sex is a revelatory experience. I suppose you can hide while you're having sex, but it's incredibly difficult, especially if you feel something for the person that you're having sex with. I personally find it interesting to watch that.

I think that this show was miscalibrated, and not just in the acting or the tone. Unlike a lot of people, I actually do like cringe humor and some of the slapstick that we get in Thai comedy. I actually enjoy that stuff. It doesn't put me off. I think that the way that Cheewin uses humor in Middleman's Love is way better than how he used it in Bed Friend, and how he built it in Bed Friend. I think that the humor here, the comedy here, has done better. I think that Yim is not great at the comedy, and since Yim's character is the central character of Middleman's Love, it doesn't work.

Plus, the story doesn't need eight episodes and Ben and I often talk about when something's too long, because I like a long show—Ben does not. This story was eight episodes and I think it could have been done in four. I like parts of the show. I like some of the things that the show is trying to do. I think that it mostly does not succeed.

Ben

Shan, you watched the first episode. [laughs] You were horrified by bobble heads in the intro—

Shan

[moans] I still have nightmares.

Ben

—and the general cringey humor. And then you came back for the finale. How about you talk about your experience with this show?

Shan

Definitely accurate to say that I bounced hard off this show after watching the first episode, and I definitely wasn't alone in that. In talking to other people we know who are watching it, a lot of folks had that reaction.

NiNi has already touched on why—the humor was not quite calibrated correctly, and the performer who had to hold up the whole show wasn't really up to the task, unfortunately. That's just what happened here. And so, for some of us, I think getting through that super uncomfortable cringe humor with a performer who wasn't quite able to carry it was just really difficult.

I struggled through the first episode. The bobbleheads really got me off on a terrible start. I hated those fucking things [laughs]—they still haunt me. And just throughout, I didn't really understand what I was supposed to be taking from the way Jade was being presented to me. He didn't feel like a real person. It was way too much. I didn't understand why this hot guy in the office was supposed to be looking at him with interest, given what we had seen of him. It just wasn't computing for me and I wasn't buying it.

I didn't intend to fully drop the show, but then the following week I left on a long trip. And while I was gone, I missed the next three episodes. By the time I got back, I was just like, “You know what? No, I'm not taking this back up. I'm just gonna wait and see what you all told me after it finished.” And so, I kind of knew the show wasn't for me, but I wasn't opposed to the idea of it. I like an ugly duckling story. I like a story about someone finding their confidence and being able to accept that they are worthy of love. Like, that's a worthwhile story to tell. And so I'm not anti-The Middleman's Love. It just didn't quite work for me.

The show finished this week. I decided to come back and watch the finale, just to kind of see where it landed, and [laughs] I actually think that was a great way to watch the show. If you, like me, are just not into the show's style and humor, you can watch the first episode and then you can watch the last episode, and you really won't miss any narrative beats—like it's super clear. The plot is very straightforward. You will be able to pick up in the last episode and understand everything important that has happened, and why the characters are where they are now. And you'll get to see Jade and Mai kind of settle into this relationship.

And I thought that was nice. I enjoyed watching the finale. I liked getting to see a Jade who had seriously toned down some of the quirks of the first episode—a Jade, who seemed a little bit more confident—but still the same character. And I really enjoyed what they did with the physical intimacy in this episode.

First of all, let me just give a cautionary note. If you are not watching this show on iQIYI, you are not seeing the whole show. I watched the finale on Gaga and got to the end and was like, “Where are these sex scenes that I heard about?”

Ben

The trust that Shan has in me [Shan laughs] she watched the whole show cut and was like, “Ben would never lie to me about sex scenes.”

Shan

You told me there were sex scenes in this!

Ben

“He used the Rihanna GIF. There is sex in the show.” [laughs]

Shan

And I will find it! So I did find it. [NiNi laughs] I went to iQIYI and I found it. So definitely watch it there.

But I loved what they did with it because they really used the intimacy scenes well to convey these two settling into their relationship to convey Jade over time becoming more comfortable with their physical intimacy—finding his own power in it, finding his own agency in it. The performers did a great job on those scenes. I was incredibly impressed by it, impressed by the show's ability to take those characters from point A to B like that.

If this show maybe wasn't entirely for you—if you, like me, dropped it in the beginning—I'd say maybe dip back in for the finale and enjoy a good time.

Ben

I like the idea of Jade a lot. I like the idea of a character who's had negative experiences feeling like he doesn't get priority from his family, ‘cause he's not the oldest and he's not the baby, not expecting a whole lot. And I like the idea of Jade having two really fucking hot friends in King and Uea, and just getting used to people being more interested in them, so not really seeing himself as a priority. And then he had like one relationship where he was literally told, “You were so weird and disgusting that no one wants to be with you.”

I kind of get it with Mai. It structurally works. Mai is very pretty. He's generally very good at his job. He's kind of charming, but not overwhelmingly so. He's just naturally very pretty and nice to people, and fairly amenable and good at what he does. And he's really into Jade because he thought Jade was really kind and competent the first time he saw him. The flavor of this could have been correct, but then, like, they added way too much sugar. It’s just not great as a result.

It's frustrating because Cheewin's ideas, as they're exemplified through the characters created for this show in Gus and Tong—and what he does with Jade and Mail—work really well. But the show is unfortunately really inessential. The people who watched this show were coming from Bed Friend, and I don't feel like this show really plays well as a Bed Friend extension or side story sort of experience. I think a lot of people brought the wrong energy to this show, and it took us weeks of recalibration to find something meaningful in it. And I don't think it finishes strong, because while I appreciate Cheewin’s giving the gays an extended boyfriend epilogue, an hour of watching people just be kind of cute boyfriends with no real drama on the table is kind of boring to watch in a TV show? And there's way more drama in watching people try to be boyfriends and deal with the consequences of actually being together.

There's a great moment where they talk about their past exes and what that means for them, what they're bringing to the current relationship. How they want to handle drama going forward. I thought that was really good. I thought the fact that Jade asked for sex was really good, and then he got it. I don't approve of Mai biting that man's motherfucking glasses—

NiNi

[laughs] I approve!

Ben

—and then tossing them around.

Shan

Ben, he licked his glasses off! Licked! [NiNi laughs] It’s a very important detail! I don't want you to get it wrong!

NiNi

[laughs] Shan, I don't know about you but personally I approve.

Shan

I did approve. I was very into that!

Ben

I actually liked when Mail wore the glasses in the second sex scene we got.

NiNi

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shan

A lot of good glasses material in these scenes.

NiNi

Top-tier, absolutely no notes, no complaints there, none whatsoever.

Ben

This show was a lot of fun when it wanted to be. And when it wasn't, it kind of sucked. NiNi, you don't spend a lot of time in the pulps, but My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love? This is what the pulps are like. There are things that are worth talking about, and then there are things that are not. These shows are almost always kind of bad, but there's kind of something interesting that won't happen in the big network shows.

NiNi

I have been convinced into pulps before. I have enjoyed pulps before. We have discussed this before. I am not opposed to a good pulp, but it's gotta be a good pulp. The flaws of these two shows aside, I had a really good time with them, and I found things not just to enjoy, but also to give me a little bit to think about. Not like a ton to think about, granted, but they give me stuff to think about in both of these shows. And, for me, that's why I landed up more or less in the same place with them.

I gave Middleman's Love a 7. I think that's a perfectly reasonable score for it.

Ben

I gave this show a 6, not because I think it's bad or necessarily boring, but as I've explained with my rating system before, a 6 means the show is not offensive but I really truly think the only people who gain value from giving this show the eight hours-plus that it asks for is people who really give a shit about BL as a genre.

NiNi

Shan, what about you? How are you rating your short version BL cut?

Shan

I mean, obviously I didn't fully watch the show properly, so take it with a grain of salt, but this feels like a 6 show to me. That's what my heart is telling me it's a six.

NiNi

I will allow y'all to fully average down to 6.5 under protest.

Ben

That's not how math works, but okay.

NiNi

Listen, we gave up on math a long time ago on this show. Okay, just accept it and move on.

Ben

I think 6.5 is fair.

NiNi

If you like cringe comedy, I'm not saying that this show does cringe comedy as well as some other shows have done cringe comedy. And I bring up here Secret Crush on You because it's by the same creator, and it is some pinnacle cringe comedy—like some fantastic cringe comedy—that is just not replicated here. But if you like cringe comedy, there's something in here for you. If you like Thai-style slapstick, there's something in here for you.

That's all I'll say about it.

01:49:07 - Final Thoughts and Girl, You Tried

Ben

On to the final event: Girl, You Tried Winter 2023.

NiNi

So the Fall shows, there were some that tried and succeeded. They don't count for this award. Bye-bye, two-out-of-three Japanese BLs that we just talked about. So, My Personal Weatherman is in contention for Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Oh, then it wins.

NiNi

[laughs] Let's see what else we have here. We have Kiseki, which didn't try. Shan, do you think that Kiseki tried?

Shan

No, it did not try to be a coherent show. It cannot get the Girl, You Tried.

Ben

Thank you, Shan.

NiNi

So Kiseki is out of contention. Dangerous Romance sucked. It's not in contention for anything. Love in Translation is too good to be in contention for Girl, You Tried—that goes. Absolute Zero? Pfft, forget about it. My Dear Gangster Oppa, it definitely tried something.

Shan

Did it?

NiNi

I think it did.

Ben

Hmm.

NiNi

Ben really just unmuted just to go “Hmm” and go back on mute. Okay, fine. It's going into contention. And Middleman's Love. I think Middleman's Love did try, and I think that the execution of it was off. Not that it was necessarily bad, but that it was off. So if I had to put a Girl, You Tried contest together right now, it would be between My Personal Weatherman and Middleman's Love.

So, Shan, for you, very important vote now. My Personal Weatherman versus Middleman's Love for Girl, You Tried.

Shan

Oh, this is a hard one, ‘cause I think of the Girl, You Tried designation as, like, being for a show that got really close to being what it wanted to be—like almost got the execution right and then kind of just missed the mark. So for me, I think I'm going to have to give that to My Personal Weatherman between these two shows. I think it did have ambitions, and I think it did know what it wanted to be with clarity, and it just fell a little short on the execution. Whereas, I think Middleman's Love was a little bit messier and didn't have as clear of a vision of what it was doing?

NiNi

Okay, that's one for My Personal Weatherman. Ben, I already know your answer, but come on. Explain it to the people.

Ben

Hello, people.

[Ben and NiNi laugh]

So when we were first planning this episode, the Girl, You Tried debate was between My Dear Gangster Oppa and Middleman's Love, but I didn't realize how much I fucking hated My Dear Gangster Oppa until we got here and I was talking about it. And I was, like, “You know what, actually.”

I would have given it to Middleman's Love because Cheewin was trying to do the things that he likes to do, but now that you put My Personal Weatherman in contention, I gotta give it to that one. I think My Personal Weatherman is trying things that are harder to do than Middleman's Love. I think the ideas of that show are way more cogent, and easier to access and have a conversation about with people than something like Middleman's Love.

NiNi

Okay, so for me, if I had to choose who attempted the higher degree of difficulty, it would be Middleman's Love. It's a high wire act. It's so easy to fall off. If I have to think about who got closer to their intentions, I would say it's My Personal Weatherman.

Girl, You Tried has a criterion, which is a strong premise with some sort of flaw/failure in the execution. But it has also become somewhat of a personal Rorschach test for us as we go through the shows, and attempt to unpack what it is that we think they did well, what it is we think they did badly, what it is we enjoyed and didn't enjoy. And that enjoyment component does have something to do with how we end up on a Girl, You Tried.

If they're tied right now based on those other criteria, and I have to think about what I personally enjoyed more, I would have to give it to Middleman's Love.

Shan and Ben outvote me. Boohoo. I'm gonna go cry about it.

Ben

I don't want to walk away from this particular recording pretending like I don't like Middleman's Love. The spirit inside of it is worth acknowledging.

Shan

I think both of these shows are worthy of talking about as shows that tried to do somethin’. I think for me, My Personal Weatherman just gets a little bit closer there and it's doing a little bit more.

NiNi

I think that's a good place to leave it, so that's going to wrap us up on Tens and Chops, our first ever full grab bag episode. So this is Volume One, hopefully with many more to come.

Next up, the VIIB Awards. I'm looking forward to that. I'm excited.

Anyway, we out. Say “bye” to the people, Ben.

Ben

Peace!

NiNi

Shan, say “bye” to the people.

Shan

Bye, people.

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