#tmagp theory

[mothocean]

So. We know that Celia is a single mom with a one year old, both of Alice's parents are dead and her brother is at least somewhat financially dependent on her, and Sam doesn't want to tell his parents that he left his previous job. We don't know much about Gwen's family situation, but everything so far seems to imply she's from a well-off family.

That creates an interesting parallel between Celia and Alice: they're both working at the OIAR to financially support (aside from themselves) a younger family member, presumably without much help from other family members/anyone else really. While they can technically quit their jobs, that'd make it much harder for them to care for themselves and the family member that is dependent on them.

Now this part miiight be a stretch because we don't know enough about Sam and Gwen's family situations, but i believe they parallel each other in a similar way. What Sam said in the last ep seems to imply that he doesn't want to disappoint his parents or admit he's not living up to their expectations. And if the Bouchard family in Protocol is anything like the Bouchard family in Archives, Gwen probably has some familial expectations placed on her too. They're both also the ones most invested in their jobs, digging themselves deeper into supernatural business in an attempt to climb the corporate ladder/figure out how it all went wrong. They too cannot quit their jobs at the OIAR, so long as they still aren't living up to their family's expectations.

[fearful-quartet]

So I've been listening to The Magnus Protocol, and managed to get my dad into TMA last year so he's now listening to Mag Protocol too. So last night we were listening in the car to the latest statement, and I was half-jokingly saying which fear the statement sounded like mostly, to which my dad starts talking about how he doesn't think these statements and the O.A.I.R are connected to the Fears at all. I'm gonna try to put a cut for anyone not caught up but here's how this led to a theory of mine:

So Lena said to Gwen that there's good and bad forces that need to be balanced, but she never said which side of that the O.A.I.R. is part of, if any. I was noting this when it hit me.

Every single Magnus Protocol Statement so far has been about misfortune coming around due to perceived fortune or a fortunate opportunity becoming misfortune.

Let's break this down ep by ep so you see what I mean.

Episode One: It's a little hard to figure out what the fortune is to the misfortune, especially since it's mostly getting us used to the characters and the overall setup of the show, but for the first statement I think it's not the statement giver, but the husband. Harriet (the one emailing) says he sounded excited in an unsettling way (I am assuming the "he" she is talking about is her husband since she doesn't mention anyone else). When she meets him, or what has him, she describes that he laughed and laughed. Her misfortune was his fortune, his joy.

The second statement in that episode of course is about the Institute, but by way of a bunch of spelunkers looking for something intriguing to discuss. I haven't quite figured out the connection here but I am sure there is one, even if it's through the characters (aka Sam) finding something within it.

Two: A lot easier to connect to this. Daria is finding joy through getting this tattoo that allows her to change how she looks and alter her appearance immensely (and grotesquely). Enough said.

Three: This statement is one that overall I just don't understand tbh, but I think it shows the opposite? As in the victim is experiencing fear and discomfort the entire time, but towards the end you'll notice he gets much more happy and calm about the situation.

Four: This is again easy, it's about a violin that needs blood but will give you amazing talent if you pay that price, and horrible bloodshed if you don't. Self-explanatory.

Five: The guy is trying to make a living off watching and reviewing horror movies, gets excited at a live showing of one just for him, then realizes it's not what it seems and posts everyone should see it. Easy enough. (Very Grifter's Bone in energy)

Six: The introduction to infamous new tumblr sexyman, Needles. I shouldn't have to spell out how he gets pleasure from others in pain by needles.

Seven: All I gotta say is it's "all for a good cause" and you should get the picture.

Eight: Utilizes that uncanny fear of false hospitality if you ask me, but either way this statement is clearly taking something associated often as comforting and twisting it.

Nine: The dice literally affect fortune and misfortune and likely make the statement giver into the embodiment of fortune. 'Nuff said.

Ten: Bonzo needs no explanation for this in his introductory episode so let's move on.

Eleven: This one goes more into obsession territory than anything, which is another running theme of the show and another theory, but it also talks about how the sea brings comfort so that could be part of it. (Also I noticed the sneaky possibly Dr. David reference in there lol)

Twelve: Now I know what you're gonna say, "How is this one connected to fortune at all, Cal? It's about some woman being traumatized at a strip club!" Well think about this: what if it wasn't supposed to end in Bonzo? Gwen gave Bonzo an "assignment," didn't she? And Lena pretty much outright says that this statement was that assignment. So it's possible this is what happened after stopping the initial outcome.

Thirteen: The latest episode as of typing this, and the most clear with evidence. The man literally gains a fortune from his own misfortune, so ya know it's right there.

So every statement is a good thing turned bad or a bad thing turned good. So what? Magnus Archives had plenty of statements similarly framed, so why am I focusing on it here?

Because what is the tagline for Magnus Protocol again?

Fear takes many forms.

[elliekillsu]

Okay now we've got some confirmation I think my theory was right:

Before the end of mag200, the protocol world was either neutral or, like lena said, benevolent and now after the fears came into the world not only did the fears get messy so did the others, these things that already existed became tainted that's why they all seem to be the force of desire, and mostly resemble multiple fear entities

[thermodynamic-comedian]

i've seen a lot of people talk about the whole "glitches in the audio means someone's lying" theory, and one thing i find really interesting about that is that apparently there's been only one glitch when lena's talking? which means that there's only one thing she's been lying about, and that's about colin being able to resign.

now, to me, this makes sense. it seems like someone other than lena is in charge of colin's employment, or at least making sure he can't leave. we had both of these lines way back in episode 1:

so, if the glitch theory is true, the only intentional lie lena has told thus far is that colin can leave. which means

things lena kelley has NOT been lying about:

people (other than colin) are able to quit

she wasn't able to join the others at the bar

she's not particularly wealthy

she's been needing someone to step up to "the real job" for a while now

she does not watch television

the theatricality IS necessary

mr. bonzo is a valued asset

screaming helps (they usually like it)

basically everything she said about the oiar and its purpose in tmagp 13

[cupoteahatter]

I don’t think there will ever be concrete parallels between characters from TMA to characters in TMAGP, but I do think we could make cases for what fears the crew could have been avatars for.

I’ll start, cliché as it is, Alice Dyer would be snapped up by Peter Lucas for the Lonely in a fucking heartbeat, this woman is only getting more and more lonely, she’s right there were you left her, probably has had this job since she was 24/25, every body is moving on but she’s still here, still in the office, she was born down here and is on the path to dying down here.

(Just as she said.)

[unoriginallyned]

Sooooooo what’s the chances the thing Colin was looking for in episode one crawled out a computer?

[anthroposeen]

tmagp 13 relisten notes!!

there are spoilers for episode 13 below the cut!

celia:

- admits to sam that she asked alice for advice and general information about him. this implies she has a pretty friendly relationship with alice (evidenced by alice buying her a mocha) and seems relatively unthreatened by her past with sam so far.

- "no one, im mysterious" -> evidence for her not being from this dimension, if no one can give a lot of information about her

- reveals jack is her baby! (not followed by a glitch)

- says the past couple years "since the move" (between dimensions?) were weird for her

- believes the incidents they work with are real, and im certain shes in the same boat as the audience rn, trying to categorize them with background knowledge that isnt accurate anymore

sam:

- easy to make blush, doesnt know how cute he is, is an overachiever, obsessive, a but repressed, nosy, kind of a recluse, and very easy to wind up

- gifted kid syndrome poster child; he seems to view being turned away by the magnus institute as the beginning of his rejection streak (not admitted to oxford, didnt get first, got fired from his legal firm). i think this will be a major point in his motivations and a fear of rejection and need for validation is going to drive him to receive the greatness he wants (and believes he has earned). i can already see a corruption arc brewing for him, poor thing

- did NOT tell celia about his experiences in the institute or what his "incident" was (referring to lena's interview where she asked him what the worst thing he's seen/experienced was). this isnt super sketchy considering its a first date, but is interesting since he was the one who wanted "all the baggage" out early

- he doesn't want to accept that the incidents are real, but i think he does believe in them. he brought the topic up to celia and has asked alice about it before too, so he may be aware that the incidents are real, but is unwilling to fully conceptualize what that means for himself and his world view

- says that alice doesnt love the idea of him seeing celia, which means he may have picked up on her feelings for him

gwen:

- feels guilty over instigating the mr.bonzo incident -> whats really interesting is that she doesnt threaten to quit or not be involved, she accepts that she gas another email to look through and another external to interact with, but it seems to upset her

- she asks lena why this (externals and mr bonzo murder) is happening, implying that she can stomach the work if its for a reason

lena:

- gives gwen the ABCs of genre-awareness:

- this dimension also has "opposing forces- most of them meaning to be harmful.

- these "forces" need to be "balanced" and controlled in order to maintain order in the world/system -> still working off of a smirke-esque theory that retaining balance will keep the world secure. i dont know if she means balance between forces of good and evil or forces in the supernatural sense

- says the OIAR is managing the bad guys, as in monitoring their actions and directing externals to "balance" things

alice:

- actually offended that sam doesnt want to share information with her and isnt having a good time knowing sam and celia are seeing each other

- tells sam "he cant prove anything" about the cases being real, but doesnt tell him hes wrong

- i would fling myself from a sky scraper for you, miss dyer, but please never say bussin or fire again

- "stop trying to make an impact" -> the more she tells sam to cut the x-files shit out, the more she stops protesting his suspicions. her scolding has gone from "nothing is going on, chill out" to "sure, theres a conspiracy, but we are paid to ignore it"

-

alice/sam's past:

- dated at uni, previously stated they were together for several years. it seems to have been a decent split since they stayed in contact afterward.

- sam was there for her when her parents died, but lost contact after

- she contacted him w the OIAR job details after he made an exceptionally pathetic vague post

incident:

- centered around gambling and self harm to achieve success- this draws ties to episode 2 (self harm) and episode 9 (luck). i expect this is more aligned with ep 9, as the self harm seems to be in the interest of changing his odds/luck, and the incident is primarily about gaining external success, not physical change. though, ep 2 could be a personal experience with ink5oul that is not representative with their "force"

- the narrator of this statement was quick to actively sacrifice his own well being to achieve better luck, which is a pretty stark contrast to other people who looked to harm other people in their own interest (violin guy and dice guy, i forgot their names sorry!!)

- zorro trader may be a reoccurring organization in relation to gambling

- the narrators options for his debt were to either pay it back or have a personal adjustment, once he completes the voicemail he is transferred to the adjustments apartment, which was not an option on the original call log and something he did not request

- he is promptly adjusted :)

- i think this could be related to the theme of keeping balance, since the incident narrator claims it isnt wrong to play with the loophole, and it ends with him getting what he owes, which is a nice connection to lena's explanation of the OIAR's purpose

glitches/lies:

- "im happy you're happy", alice (she is not happy that sam is with celia!!)

extra comments:

- i really didnt expect an explanation of the OIAR and its position in this so early, and im surprised lena was the one to reveal it. this exposes that shes pretty open with the staff she feels are on a need-to-know basis, and it also changes my expectations for how we'll come across a big reveal in this series, since information is being given in a more open way

- i think alice and celia definitely know something but in opposing ways- acting as foils to each other with sam (information seeker) in the middle. celia knows about how the fears work in the tma dimension, and alice knows why and what the OIAR are really doing- together, they solve the puzzle that sam is trying to piece together.

[theanxiousghostartist]

A collection of theories and speculation from TMAGP 13

SPOILERS BELOW

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Celia: It's interesting that (assuming she is telling the truthee about Jack/his age) that she would have chosen the name Jack for her baby. Jack is an old nickname for John. I know names aren't really a big factor in the show (Jonathan Sims took his name for the main character of TMA lol), but it's still interesting. Also, she mentioned that it had been a few years since she "moved here" but we know that Chester, Norris, and Augustus showed up about a year and a half ago (the first episode mentions a year, but Same mentions in this episode that it had been about 6 months since he got the job). So we have 3 possibilities, assuming that Celia is from TMA and that Chester and Norris are Jon and Martin (and Augustus is probably Magnus):

1. Time works differently. Celia showed up a few years ago, probably 1-2 years before Jon and Martin, therefore time could work differently for Jon and Martin in the computer system.

2. Celia is lying. I don't remember hearing an glitches while she was talking, so this may be unlikely, however, it is possible that Celia showed up around the same time as Jon and Martin and lied about it to Sam to giver her more of a past. In this episode, she said Jack is around a year old, which could fit into this timeline, if Jack was a premie or if Jack came with her either from TMA or he randomly showed up when she arrived.

3. Celia could have just said the time frame wrong. It's possible that Celia could have said a few years, when she actually arrived around a year and a half ago. This would be untrue, but technically not a lie as a year and a half could be counted as 2 years, which could be counted as a few years. It's possible that she did this intentionally or it's possible that she actually thinks it was a few years. Since she was having "a werid time," her memories could be messed up, especially if she traveled from TMA.

Sam's past: Sam said everything started going wrong after the Institute, which eventually landed him at the OIAR. Could this be the Web's doing? We know that the Web has manipulated a future archivist before, with the Web being the first to mark Jon, so it's possible that it's doing the same to Sam.

Lena & Gwen's discussion: Lena says that her group is "managing the bad guys" which makes me wonder: Is something else controlling the fears? Did the Web take over? Or did this world just figure out how to deal with the fears?

Personally I think it's either a different entity entirely controlling the fears/keeping them in line or the Web (we already know that the Web has manipulated most of the fears before, with Gertrude's/Agnes's bond, Jon, the eyepolcolypse, ect).

[fuckthisshitimin]

THAT DAMNED SPREADSHEET

DOES ANYONE TO HEAR ABOUT MY ADVENTURE IN THE SPREADSHEET?

Cause I'm pretty damned sure I know what getting "High" on Milgram means.

Talking about his being rejected by the Magnus Institute, Samama said:

[That definitely feels like when it all started. […] Well, after that it all just went downhill. Didn’t get into Oxford, so I went to Nottingham.]

And that does not sound like what one would say about something that happened when they were, like, eight. So I went to take another look at the spreadsheet. Of course I was wrong, because The Magnus Institute burned in 1999, so he couldn’t have been more than nine, but I found out other stuff.

A thing that bugs me in how I’ve read some discussing the spreadsheet is that Sam has the highest empathy score, and that it made him “too nice/good” for the Institute’s purposes (not necessarily this directly but it has been implied, including in the “recruiting future avatar theories, and… well, implying that low empathy makes you more likely to become a literal monster is quite disgusting, actually).

First, I think we got one thing wrong on the Kohlberg column. Since they are kids, it doesn’t seem shocking that they’d be around stages 1 to 3 of his “Six stages of moral development”; but it doesn’t say Stage 1, 2 or 3 it says Level 1, 2 or 3, and I don’t think it’s a mistake.

His six stages are divided into three levels: Pre-Conventional (1,2), Conventional (3,4) and Post-Conventional (5,6).

People in stages 1 and 2 (Level 1) have a sense of morality that is linked to the direct consequences of their actions on themself — stage 1 is “don’t hit the dog because you’ll be punished” and stage 2 “give her half your banana and you’ll get half her chocolate bar” (very simplified).

People on stages 3 and 4 (Level 2) have internalized their surrounding’s sense of morality and act accordingly — stage 3 being “I’ll get a good grade in being a person by following the rules” and stage 4 “the rules I learnt are true and real, failing to follow them is Wrong and upholding them is Right” (idem).

People on stages 5 and 6 (Level 3) have a personal sense of morality that is critical of societal norms — stage 5 being “there are rules, and those rules can and should be changed through compromise to be fair to the greatest number”, and stage 6 “unfair rules should not be followed, direct consequences like punishment are irrelevant when it comes to deciding to do what it right” (very, very, very simplified).

If I’m right, the spreadsheet is so much more understandable.

First thing I wanted to do was put numbers on how singular Sam’s results are:

He gets “High” on both Milgram and Asch when the overwhelming tendency is that the higher your other scores are, the more likely you are to get “Low”, and the numbers were, indeed, that among the 49 children who scored “High” on both, 33 were in Piaget’s stage 1, 15 were in stage 2 and only Sam was in stage 3.

The 33 kids who were in stage 1 are the opposite of Sam:

(Abbreviating so it’s easier to compare values but P=Piaget, K=Kohlberg, Ps=Prosocial, S-A=Sally-Anne, U=Ultimatum, EI=Empathy Index)

33K: (P) Stage 1 :: (K) Level 1 :: (Ps) Low :: (S-A) Fail :: (U) Unfair :: (EI) ≥62%

Sam: (P) Stage 3 :: (K) Level 3 :: (Ps) High :: (S-A) Pass :: (U) Fair :: (EI) 98%

So that’s weird. And when I went to filter by Kohlberg levels… absolutely no kid that was on “Level 2” scored High on Milgram and Asche.

In fact, among the 99 kids on Kohlberg Level 2, none got “Low” for prosocial, none got “High” on Milgram, only 2 got “High” on Asch.

And when we read “Level 2 (Conventional Morality) instead of “Stage 2 (Pre-Conventional Morality, what benefits me directly)” we can make sense of this: 

“To reason in a conventional way is to judge the morality of actions by comparing them to society's views and expectations. […] Conventional morality is characterized by an acceptance of society's conventions concerning right and wrong. At this level an individual obeys rules and follows society's norms even when there are no consequences for obedience or disobedience. Adherence to rules and conventions is somewhat rigid, however, and a rule's appropriateness or fairness is seldom questioned.” (by Kohlberg himself, from Wikipedia)

Adults can be Level 2, by the way. Adults can even be Level 1. Subjects of the Milgram experiment are displaying peak Level 2 behavior.

“High” on Milgram is “Did not electrocute/Disobeyed”

“High” on Asch is “Did not conform”

GOSH THAT IS SATISFYING

Bonus: the average empathy index is 79,1%, the median is 82% with 116 kids below 82%, 13 kids at 82% and 120 kids above. Of the 116 kids below the median, 11 got “Low” on Milgram. Of the 13 median kids, 3 got “Low” on Milgram. Of the 120 kids above, 91 got “Low”.

If we take the average instead, of the 163 kids more empathetic than the average, 100 got “Low” on Milgram, and 2 got “High”, of the 86 less empathetic than the average, 5 got “Low” and 59 for “High” on Milgram.

So actually here, low empathy is inversely correlated to willingness to hurt if ordered to.

And it makes sense. Low empathy is often associated with anti-social personality disorder, autism, depression — and you know what’s very associated with anti-social personality disorder? Disobedience.

Now I have to make another post about the weird kids in red's names.

[bajablastflavoredsaxreed]

ok alice’s parents’ deaths DEFINITELY weren’t natural

[roseddraws]

Another interesting thing I just realised: episode thirteen is at least the second one we’ve seen centred around luck.

Obviously the guy’s misfortune was of his own creation, but it seems like he wasn’t using the app as intended and was punished for it, so the point still stands.

This could mean several things:

This luck entity links to what Lena said this episode about there being some “benevolent” entities (not that this entity seems benevolent, but that explanation implies the existence of neutral entities too)

That there are some entirely new fear entities. I don’t think Rusty Quill will do this, as most of the original entities seemed to cover literally any possible fear, and were already based around all the big ones (like the dark, and spiders, and claustrophobia). It’s possible that only some of them have changed, but I just feel like that’s an unnecessary change that, at this point, there seems to be no reason for. At first glance “fear of luck” doesn’t seem to make sense, but actually the fear that your life could be ended, or ruined, or otherwise changed forever by forces entirely out of your or anyone else’s control is not an uncommon fear.

That my “the fears have shifted focus” theory is correct. I guess the fear of chance would be the Spider..? Since it’s about a lack of control? But not entirely sure on this one

[a-dumbass-jester]

I would like to point out that some of these forces are good

[vampyre-inc]

Deny, Deny, Deny (TMAGP)

Spoliers for basically all of The Magnus Protocol under the cut!

Today I'm thinking about the pattern of disbelief we've seen thus far. Let me explain.

We begin with episode 7, with the charity shop. Ms. Margolis is resigning and claims that she has had no help from the Oxford People's Trust.

She reached out multiple times during the course of her experience and did not receive help from her employer.

Then we have episode 8, the thesis paper. We open with this.

Mr. Stevens wrote about his experience and yet he isn't believed by his tutor.

Then we come to episode 12, where Ms. Bennett (of the Mr. Bonzo strip club incident) has her insurance claim denied. Again, a horrific experience brushed off entirely.

And then, most recently, we have episode 13.

Mr. Laurel explains his experience just like everyone else, but he is similarly 'denied' or otherwise not believed.

All of these people fully explain their supernatural occurrence, and plenty of them have physical evidence to back their stories up (often in the form of physical harm to themselves, notably), but all of them are outright disbelieved. I just think it's an interesting motif to have seen in a third of the episodes thus far. I wonder where it's going, or if it'll mean anything.

[leptonlord]

ok so TMA's themes were all about how we cope with fear and whether we allow it to change us or if we fight against it ect, using avatars like Jane to personify accepting and giving into fear to cope with it and Jon to personify someone who is almost just trying to make it go away without changing.

I am actually very excited to see how TMAGP goes now because it seems like some of the themes have been carried over from TMA but we have been given a new one: Vices/toxic attributes. 2 cases so far have been about incredibly unhealthy gambling problems, small adjustments was talking about the never ending urge to make yourself "perfect", Bonzos whole thing is the creation outgrowing the creator and consuming their entire life, Taking notes talked about someone so determined to reach their goal that they forget about the harm it does to themselves and others.

its about horrible facts about people. things that they would try to hide, say arent a problem. But they are problems, and so far in the statements we have seen people so consumed by their toxic traits/the bad situations they find themselves in that they can never get out. I wonder how this will be extrapolated to the main cast.

[pigeonentity]

on the new tmagp episode: the entities aren't all negative?? does this mean they're definitely not the ones from the tma universe? or is it just that there were preexisting entities that were actually good? or was it a mix of good and bad? me and my friend were speculating about what other entities could be, and she suggested addiction, which I think fits well not only with several statements but with the food in tmagp. like we've got coffee and sugary stuff and alcohol and all of those can be addictive

[tenthgrove]

Take on the “benevolent forces” mentioned in Ep 13

I think they’re inextricably linked to Jon and Martin’s actions at the end of archives. Old-universe Gerry was *convinced* there are no non-fear entities and I don’t think the answer is simply “oh he was wrong.” I think the old universe really did just have the listed fear gods and nothing else. The new universe however, has benevolent forces because of Jon and Martin’s intervention to reverse the watcher’s crown.

I’m not suggesting every instance of the “benevolent forces” is directly controlled by them - I do think that they are mostly powerless as Chester and Norris. But that doesn’t mean they didn’t cause it inadvertently.

It’s giving real Pandora’s box vibes, Chester and Norris being the “hope” at the bottom of the OIAR’s “box” of evil.

As a side note, just as the entities of the old universe could blend together, I think the good and evil forces in this universe can blend or at least “corrupt”. This is why we get so many statements about people enjoying their contact with the supernatural, even if it seems fucked up to everyone else. As I suspected, the theories about “desire” being this universes new set of entities may not have been entirely wrong, just a much smaller piece of the puzzle than we first thought.