#rop critique

[djemsostylist]

ROP was never meant to be Game of Thrones which why they kept the show family-friendly and tonally, there's nothing ASOIAF about it either. Tolkien's own estate has continued to license his works for all kinds of adaptations, including the most recent hilariously bad Gollum game. Fans act as if these studios can just produce works without the legal blessing of the Tolkien estate, and even then, ROP was not allowed to use the Silmarillion. It's so obvious his estate wants to profit from these adaptations, even in limited capacities, which Tolkien fans seem to never want to admit to.

I don't mean Game of Thrones as in the sex and nudity or themes, I mean Game of Thrones in the "Show everyone talks about and is a Part of the Discourse and Conversation." They wanted to make a popular fantasy show that would be a major part of pop culture--not unlike whatever the Witcher is attempting (and also failing) at doing.

And yes, I'm well aware that ROP has the rights because they were sold to them. I do know how copyright works. I also know that the current Tolkien in charge of the estate is more concerned with money and less concerned with preserving a legacy than Christopher was. I am not unaware of these things, nor has that ever been the point of my posts.

The point of my posts has always been that I find the entire thing overwhelmingly sad and vaguely depressing. Because while yes, Tolkien did initially sell his rights early on, we also know exactly what he thought both of big corporations (he notoriously hated Disney) and also how he felt about changing the fundamental aspects of his work in order to turn a profit. We also know that Christopher Tolkien was very protective of his father's legacy, and wanted nothing more than to preserve his father's works as close to their original form and meaning as possible. My point has always been that as Tolkien's works move further and further from their origin, and as the media (tv shows and movies) developed from his works take over the public consciousness, and fewer and fewer Tolkien fans are actually reading the works which they claim to love, his works become less the things he poured his soul into, and more the thing that tv show/movie fans *think* it is. And this isn't just me saying that--I have read/listened to/seen so many fans talking about his works as huge Tolkien fans while never having actually consumed any of his works.

And because of the unique place the Tolkien holds in fantasy literature, I find this sad. Unbearably, overwhelmingly sad. Again, my point has never been that ROP fans can't like a show--it's been that when said show becomes the thing that people think is Tolkien, then we lose something fundamental about what his works so special in the first place.

I feel like the fact that my ROP posts inspire so much anger and defense in ROP fans says all that needs to be said really. (And also the fact that every time I get an anonymous post angry about my ROP posts, they always seem to have actually not read said post, or at the very least comprehended none of what they did.

[thegreatzombieartisan]

Rings of Power: The Galadriel Dossier

Superprivileged Underdog

A Critique of the Valinor Bullying Scene Thru a Sociopolitical Lens

Related meta | “The Mean Streets of Valinor…”

All protagonists need sympathetic problems.

For school-aged ones, being picked-on is a popular, if not tired, trope. But if you wish to use social aggression then you must understand the dynamics of power and privilege.

Some of my followers know that I’m a kinda Mary Poppins to “unruly” organizations. Regrettably, too often, that includes disrupting antisocial behavior including bullying and harassment.

People are always trying to tell me stories of “what happened” but what does not make sense is not true.

 “…she is nevertheless teased by her peers. As Galadriel rises to defy these bullies, she demonstrates she has strength of conviction, and is not intimidated when she knows she is right.” — Bear McCreary

Bullies don't victimize those able to fight back (at least not successfully). They choose targets with the least amount of power and social support. The socially awkward, marginalized, lower status, or disabled, etc. And bullying is not isolated interpersonal conflict. The community, most especially powerholders, creates the conditions that allows for social aggression: scarcity, fear, bias, and lack of accountability.

Gif @haladrielgifs

Galadriel is royalty. She has power over the group and they would all know it.

(Altho her princess status is not made explicit, disclosing her royal House is fair RoP canon.)

It’s not to say that less-powerful enact social aggression to the more powerful. It simply won’t go on for long and it’s more likely to allow plays ai or deniability. And the group destroys her boat boat with Finrod as witness.

The group may bully her if power dynamics are subverted in a believable manner —like Galadriel had withheld her identity from the group to feel and be treated like a “normal” child.

Bullying may be covert and allow for plausible deniability but still, Galadriel’s word Carrie’s more weight. Plus we need a damn good reason why the group decides to play with fire. Otherwise, social inferiors targeted the High King’s granddaughter breaks verisimilitude, or the art of believability.

As it’s currently written, Galadriel, a superprivileged protagonist, appropriates the bullying experiences of less-powered and marginalized children.

Another in-universe explain for the bullying scene

We view Galadriel as an unreliable narrator. Showrunners are into unreliable narration. She does have a few instances of this in S1. Most notably:

Telling Halbrand the Edain were given their isle as reward for their loyalty to the Elves

Telling Elendil, she won’t stay [in Numenor] where she’s hated — or is it really the lack of control and resentment of being impededed? Hmmm

Ignoring power and privilege not only harms worldbuilding verisimilitude, it’s a harmful portrayal of the nature of social aggression.

It's the "kids will be kids" sentiment similar to "boys will be boys." The type of sentiment that removes responsibility community members to create an environment of dignity.

Interesting that Amazon didn't flag this this since it has heavily championed diversity in the show. However, their DEI playbook lacks guidelines surrounding general bullying/harassment, rankism, and social class despite marginalized and less-powered children being the main targets of bullying.

But Galadriel’s fake bullying scene part of a problematic trend.

The “oppressed magical protagonist ” trope is quite popular. Harry Potter’s Fantastic Beasts series was retconned from wizards attempting to oppress muggles to wizards now scared of muggle witch-hunts. *eye roll*

A suggested rewrite

Scrap this entire scene. A more effective intro is focusing more on Galadriel and Finrod’s relationship for a big emotional pay-off. Take a cue from Fried Green Tomatoes.

Preferably, show the audience an adult Galadriel’s capacity for love, care, and connection (before Halbrand of course lol) before showing her at her worst. That’s only fair. A character has one chance to make a good first impression.

Other observations

In reality, as a princess, the group would expect Galadriel to be “set apart” from them. Royals are duty-bound to model higher ideals and have a superior education. It's reasonable to assume, in a rigid hierarchal society, that tutelage under Ainur, as Galadriel experienced, is reserved for elite Elves. Why not ask her to teach them? Why not offer? Everyone has all the time in the world.

By all accounts, the group would be honored and delighted for Galadriel, a princess, to share her self-sailing origami with them. Benefits of befriending the High King's granddaughter far outweigh being adversarial too.

Extremely privileged and powerful children learn to leverage institutional power early. Case in point, a young Prince William once famously told another preschooler that when he became King, he'd send his soldiers after him lol.

Should the group forget "their place", a haymaker might be the go-to response for the non-royal, non-noble Elf kid, shut-out from formal systems of power.

But for a princess like Galadriel resorting to fisticuffs is inconceivable when a well-delivered, “Wait until my father hears about this!" is an option.

[aadmelioraa]

that's it, i'm taking the phrase "mystery box" away once and for all

[castratedvader]

ok im not gonna be the one defending modern movies because i have beef with almost everything that entered the mainstream after 2000 but if you are an adult talking about the "lessons" you should learn from cinema i think you need to reexamine your values

[bereft-of-frogs]

I’m thinking about how many prequel things recently have been like ‘well it’s about how (character) gets to be the character we know in (original thing).’ Like that’s the crux of my arguments with my dad over Andor. That’s how people are dismissing complaints about Galadriel’s character in Rings of Power. And just like…I’m bored of it. There are more stories than origin stories and I want to see those stories and I don’t really know where I’m going with other than just being fucking bored of origin stories.

[pacificgasandelectric]

getting cancelled on tumblr dot com for being autistic abt the silm & liking Fëanor

[lucythornwalter]

I am that very witch person whose primary criteria for if an adaptation is good are “does it accurately follow the themes and plot of the source material” and “does it engage with the flaws of the source material in a way that indicates the people doing the adaptation care about fixing them and addressing them”

and let me tell you it’s a lonely devil’s sacrament

[valar-did-me-wrong]

The Orc family hate has finally broke me guys, so here's me ranting..

Someone I read on reddit today said correctly that (paraphrased here with tons of my own opinion added) these ROP Haters™ were initially all happy & excited with the show announcement pre character introductions. It was all well & good for them till the day ROP announced Ismael as an elf & Galadriel, a woman as the lead. Then these people got furious!

But most didn't want to bring forth or face their internalised misogyny & racism fueling this sentiment, so it became their life goal to dig into the legendarium to find points & tiny side notes to use to drag the show & justify the hate they were feeling.

From actively overlooking the meaning of 'Adaptation', to painting Newline Cinema & Warner Brothers as charity organizations unlike Amazon, to making PJ's story canon OVER Tolkien's, to digging up dirt on the producers being religious hence implying (pre premiere btw) that the show is pure christian propaganda... no stones were left unturned by varying varieties of ROP Haters™ who were all united at the pale white European elves & delicate feminine background character Galadriel front. All of which the rage bait youtubers utilise against ROP to this date!

Well this succeeded in affecting public sentiment during season 1 because the show was a little Tolkienian in pacing with characters & world building, along with the humongous Rights Problem & people being generally wary of prequels.

But by mid-end of Season 1 to now; despite the review bombing & all efforts for the past 2 years, neutral people started to watch the show themselves & realised one by one that it wasn't actually a disappointment as they were promised. It grew on some people without Hate in their heart & biases filling their minds! Hence the views & the positive comments grew, infuriating the Haters™ & fueling their mindless bullying.

Yet still these people were pretty sucessfully hiding behind their canon excuse untill The Orc Baby.

The Orc Family Hate & it's unhinged justification via convoluting the basic essence of LOTR; it shattered the illusion hiding what these ROP Haters™ are at their core.. just people desperate to destroy a thing that isn't in line with Their worldview. Because in their head the story is Theirs, the only valid interpretation is what They grew up watching & hence it owes Them to be made exactly how They deem correct!

Willing to distort a dead guy's life work to absolve themselves of their unjust hate & get a free pass to feel morally superior doing so!

Unhinged comments claiming the essence of Tolkien's writings is the existence of purely black & white differentiation of good & evil in his world!! Each one of them sounding like regurgitations from some youtuber's video who watched PJ's trilogy at 1.5× solely to farm hate veiws.

Frothing at the mouth over a 5 sec clip! Demanding a world where a whole race can be hated without using critical thinking; these are the same people who used to scream before last week that the reason they can't give ROP a chance is because ` They cannot watch a show without critical thinking `

Embarrassing hills these Haters™ keep dying on tbh

Haters™ does not equate honest critiques btw.. Haters™ are the delulu, moral superiority complex driven, hate stalkers of ROP. The show has faults & you can obviously point then out without being these people :)

[runawaymun]

Hey, I don’t post about ROP that much directly on this blog bc I have a ROP blog for that, but I want to say something to the Silm fandom at large as Season 2 is gearing to come out:

It’s totally fine to critique the show, the costuming, the writing, etc etc, but please be fucking normal about the actors themselves. They don’t deserve to have their physical appearance or personalities or w/e attacked just because you don’t like the show.

And also, keep your negativity out of the tag. It’s just basic fandom ettiquette.

I went on a blocking spree two years ago because of this and I’ll do it again if I have to.

[djemsostylist]

In general I feel that most adaptations are terrible, and, at least for all modern adaptations, exist purely to make money for a studio desperate to become "The Next Big Thing™". Now by and large I don't particularly care; does it suck that The Witcher ended up being a super boring political slog instead of a fun monster of the week adventure with a girl and her parents? Sure, but I'm not a part of the The Witcher fandom, most book/game fans recognize the show is shit, and by and large its skipped the public consciousness such that it makes little no impact on much. In fact, The Witcher might, if anything, shed light on creators crapping all over existing IPs to make a name for themselves by using a preexisting IP as a resume to make the things they actually want to make.

Wheel of Time I have no investment in, having never watched the show or read the books, but I'm given to understand that by and large, its fairly universally disliked, and that the book fans are disappointed but largely unaffected by it's current crapness except to note its crapness and move on.

That's not to say that these sort of shit adaptations aren't disappointing; they certainly are, but because the two fandoms were largely unknown in the public conscious, and bad enough that even the most "normy" of people skipped by them, their effect on the existing IP is little.

Star Wars is it's own sort of hell, because while the characters I love are mostly safe (thanks in large part to Disney deciding to write their own stories, thereby inadvertently saving my characters from a fate worse than death), the utter crapness of the current DisneyWars saturates enough of my online fandom life to be mildly annoying in that I can't avoid it. But also, people who are obsessed with Ezra or think that Ashoka Tano are the best thing ever don't bother me much, bc in the Star Wars I knew and loved, these people never existed.

Tolkien is different in a way that is often hard to express, but I think it comes down to both his feelings about his stories, and also the general view of the public. I've had this argument with people a million times, that while yes, the books will always exist, with the current way that media is consumed, the amount of people who have actually read ANY Tolkien at all is smaller than you'd think. I've stumbled across countless posts from people talking about how they are huge Lord of the Rings fans, and have never even read Fellowship.

Now, I'm fully aware that there are people who will be offended by this so called "gatekeeping", but I remain baffled by the sheer number of Tolkien fans who have never actually consumed any of his written works. I'm aware that the Silmarillion is dense, and I'm certainly not about to recommend HoMe to the average reader, but the number of people who speak with authority (and incorrectly) on the themes of his works that have never read past Rivendell is astounding.

And the issue is, by and large, Tolkien is known now more by the Lord of the Rings movies made in the early aughties than he is by the works he wrote. Christopher Tolkien worked tirelessly to ensure that this father's authentic work would be persevered, that anything published posthumously would adhere so strictly to the vision of his father that large chunks remain unwritten to this day.

And then Amazon comes in and bulldozes over everything, and we are asked to be okay with it. More than that, we are asked to accept it, to stop being worried or concerned about it, to just shut up and live with it.

It doesn't matter if you like Rings of Power. It doesn't matter if you have never read a single Tolkien book in your life. It doesn't matter if you think Tolkien is an overblown writer who cared too much about nature and language and not enough about stories (an argument I have sadly seen far too much). The fact remains that Rings of Power and its writers did not give a single fuck about writing anything close to what Tolkien wrote or would have wanted. Rings of Power is crafted to be a resume for it's showrunners on their next steps to Hollywood, and attempt to create the next "GOT", the next Big Thing that will garner them enough fame and attention to let them do what they really want in Hollywood. The show cares nothing for it's source material--that much is clear from the handling of the characters, the butchering of the timelines, the mere fact that they seem to have not even given a single thought to theme or message or meaning.

And while sure, I will always have Tolkien's works for myself and those people who actually love Tolkien, and not the visual representations of his works, butchered onscreen (and yes, I do mean the Jackson movies as well), by and large with the passage of time, Tolkien will come to mean less the stories loving written of a world he envisioned, and more to mean the corporate schlock turned out for profit or the lovingly misguided fan interpretation of one of the greatest fantasy stories of all times, at least to the larger public conscious.

I will never feel bad about my criticism of Rings of Power. Never. Because it wasn't created for anything more than corporate greed and resume building, and each new fact revealed cannot convince me otherwise.

Celeborn is merely the longest in a long line of characters who are victims to a story that uses their names but not their likeness, not their soul, not who they are to the story they were used to create. At this point, it doesn't even make me mad, it makes me sad. The Second Age has always been important to me, for the stories it told and the characters it created, and watching it be handled like this hurts. And I doubt it will ever stop.

[anipologist]

Just can’t get over TROP looking over at

1) Gil-Gilad, who was probably about the elven equivalent of 17 when he ran out of kingly relatives and ended up high king of the Noldor…a people known for their patience, staid outlook on life and long-lived kings. (Just kidding they are absolutely insane…and their kings without fail all died fighting literal Satan, werewolves, balrogs, dragons and more balrogs…)

2) Celebrimbor, grandson of Feanor and son of flipping Curufin, hopelessly in love with his married cousin, only one of his family to not swear an insane curse, his uncles include Maedhros and Celegorm, friend to Narvi of the dwarves and literal Satan 2.0

And thought “let’s make them stodgy…washed-up politician types with terrible taste in curtains....sorry...clothes! That sounds about right!”

[middle-earth-mythopoeia]

I just read a post in the LOTR tag titled “You don’t hate Amazon you hate the Silmarillion,” and then it went on to say this:

Here’s my point though, almost every (valid) critique I see of this show [Rings of Power] isn’t a problem with decisions the creative team made, it’s an inherent problem in any adaptation of the Silmarillion (and associated works but I’m just going to refer to the Silmarillion for brevity’s sake). The Silmarillion, as full and detailed as it is, is a shit story.

First things first. If you say things like this, it’s you who hates the Silmarillion. That last sentence tells me everything I need to know. Frankly, that one line invalidates every other thing this person says, but I’m going to explain why they’re wrong anyway. I’m making my own post about it because I don’t want to give the original post more notes.

Other than calling the Silmarillion shit, the main point of the post seems to be that the Silmarillion is unadaptable, therefore it should be understood that the creative team behind ROP had to use some leeway in translating the story to screen. The post finishes by saying:

Basically my point is that before you go and say “well this is weird or I didn’t like this choice” think about what the creative team had to create to make an interesting show out of a story not designed to be told. Sometimes they didn’t make the perfect decision, but if you were tasked with adapting something unadaptable do you think you would do it perfectly?

It’s true that adapting the stories of the Silmarillion is a difficult task, especially when it comes to the Second Age, which is probably the least detailed part of the histories. It’s true that many characters and events are sketched out and that many details (not to mention dialogue) would need to be invented for any screen adaptation to work. It’s also true that no adaptation can satisfy everyone. But this in no way excuses the sloppy way in which ROP adapted the source material.

If the ROP creative team wanted to write a story that was solely focused on their original characters but set in Middle-earth during the Second Age, they could have done that. But when they brought in characters like Galadriel and Isildur and Sauron and totally changed the plot, that’s where they messed up—not to mention compressing the timeline.

I personally do not believe the Silmarillion is unadaptable. If you believe it is unadaptable, that’s fine, we can agree to disagree. But it’s very odd to argue that any bad decision the ROP creative team made is the fault of the source material.

No. It’s their fault for being bad writers. And for biting off more than they can chew. And for having the hubris to say they want to write “the novel Tolkien never wrote.”

if you were tasked with adapting something unadaptable do you think you would do it perfectly?

To tell you the truth, I think I’d do a hell of a lot better than ROP. And I would start by actually understanding the source material, which the ROP creative team did not do. But if I ultimately decided that the story of the Second Age was unfilmable... then I would simply not film it.

As a final point, I think you will find that people who love the Silmarillion do not consider it a “shit story.”

[aadmelioraa]

every person who misapplies the term "mystery box" to critique rings of power owes me $5

[silmarillisms]

Criticizing the Critics: ROP, Sexism, and Racism

This is a bit of an anti-anti-anti post, if that makes sense. Before I get into it, please understand that I am absolutely not saying that there are no sexist or racist criticisms of The Rings of Power. I am also not saying that none of the people viciously critiquing or review-bombing The Rings of Power are sexist or racist. I am certain that there are those among them who are.

My argument is that the majority of individuals criticizing the show are not doing it for those reasons and that painting them all with the same broad brush of "you're just racist or a misogynist" is making the divide in the fandom worse.

Anyway, I argue with a lot of people on both Reddit and Tumblr about The Rings of Power and I'd like to bring to the table some trends that I've noticed among them.

The Peter Jackson trilogy was the introduction to LOTR for most modern fans. Most of them have never seen the Bakshi film or listened to the BBC audio drama.

Fewer still have read the whole trilogy, especially recently. Even fewer have read the other adjacent works like The Silmarillion, History of Middle-Earth, Nature of Middle-Earth, et cetera.

A lot of these people are wrapped up in the nostalgia of Peter Jackson's films. There are huge parts of Tolkien's mythos (there isn't any hard canon for a vast majority of his world, which was a purposeful choice that he made as an author) that have no hard canon at all but rather several competing explanations or interpretations. These are portrayed largely inaccurately or entirely ignored in PJ's films - and I understand why. There's only so much you can do in a limited amount of run time.

The Rings of Power is actively digging into a lot of that ignored or broadly brushed over mythos - mythos that people are not familiar with and do not associate with the franchise, on a large scale. Many people have put up blockers in their mind and have no interest in learning about the actual mythos we are presented with in the main and extended works on Arda.

As an example, someone on Reddit called me pedantic for explaining the difference between Sauron shapeshifting and Sauron's fea being disembodied from his fana, which is what we see in episode one of season two, and for explaining that the black slime that comprises his form is probably a nod to Gandalf saying that Durin's Bane, also a fallen and corrupted maia, took on a similar form when he slew it.

These are simple concepts from the mythos that Tolkien wrote but PJ excluded and they are often the most hotly criticized by people who dislike the show.

I think these objections, for the most part, stem from the fact that PJ's trilogy is what a lot of people know and where their nostalgia is rooted. A different adaptation can feel threatening to something they know and love. Imagine you got into some series as a kid not knowing there was a book series behind it and never reading it. You grow up on it. As an adult, it's remade and it's not like the series you remember. Do you care if it adheres more closely to the original source material that you're not even that familiar with? If the pacing and themes and character choices are different from the series you loved?

Look, I'm not excusing these people from being assholes. I just don't think that most of them are actually upset about strong female or POC characters. Some of them definitely are, but in my experience those aren't the arguments that I'm actually coming across in true droves. Reducing their arguments to racism and sexism does nothing to combat their actual complaints, which in bulk seem to stem from ignorance rather than malice.

It's possible to argue in good faith, but we all have to participate. A bigger fandom is better for everyone. Unless someone is obviously being a bigot, try to extend them a little grace if you reach out to them. You might be surprised by the people who come around.