#sex workers of asoiaf

[selkiewife]

A long time ago I remember someone in the asoiaf fandom had wanted to start a podcast dedicated to the sex workers of asoiaf. Did that ever get going? Does anyone know?

[tweedfrog]

"Is Stannis Baratheon a SWERF" – the greatest thread in the history of twitter, locked by a moderator after 12,239 pages of heated debate

[hylialeia]

[taking you by the shoulders] game of thrones was never good, seasons 1-4 were only well-liked because they were consistently adapting book material that sometimes felt compelling when they decided not to strip it of its context or accidentally kept the significance of its original impact and themes. the show always had a problem with shock value for the sake of itself and an ultimately shallow motive that directly opposed the books themselves, which rotted the adaption's core; any enjoyable material was a fluke resulting from the efforts of good actors and book-canon, as evidenced by the sharp decrease in quality (or "quality") when the showrunners had to choose between adapting the most thematically rich moments in the series or making a mad dash to their imagined Shocking Twist finish line

[pixiecactus]

cat of the canals - bellegere otherys - meralyn - blushing bethany - assadora of ibben - lanna - the sailor's wife - yna

[novembermorgon]

the sex worker who murdered maelor is kinda....i hope she gets to fuck one of his brothers and or saera later

i don't know about this one anon 😭

[atopvisenyashill]

so hear me out what if she really is sylvenna sand and we’re going to get essie and a better shot of gaemon palehair by the end of the season

[jozor-johai]

Sometimes I think it's underrated how much of Westeros we see during wartime. Amidst all of the discourse back and forth over whether the brutality of ASOIAF has a "realistic" basis in real-life feudal history, I think the fact that we're seeing Westeros in a very atypical and specific circumstance should not go overlooked, and I think in that regard there are parts that are "realistic" to modern history, let alone feudal.

For instance, in regards to the complaints about how many women are sex workers in ASOIAF—I think that has more to say about the nature of the wartime economy.

War breaks out; as a result, the regular economy halts. This is the result of various blockades, as well as from the workforce being redirected away from production and towards standing armies—fewer farms are being maintained, and fewer still are making it across wartime boundaries. Another side effect, then, is the trouble when this economic situation interacts with the practical existence of a standing army: massive amounts of young men, either single or separated from their families, drawing disproportionately on the limited resources of the farmland around them (which is being worked at a less-efficient rate than usual to begin with).

The army—comprised of young men—creates a demand for sex that interacts with the overflowing supply of young women without stable income (since this is an incredibly patriarchal society and the men in their lives have been taken away from work for military service). Without better jobs available, and with the market right there, these women turn to sex work, which syrockets. But of course they would, and of course it seems like every smallfolk woman we meet in ASOIAF is doing it: because people have to eat and feed their families, and the fields to plow have been burned by war, and the people who would work them have either been taken for military service or killed by war. It's exceedingly likely that sex work wasn't as widespread before the war so the increase in the need for sex workers represents the failing economy—consider the overabundance of sex workers in ACOK King's Landing, which was under a trade blockade from almost all fronts.

Then, the pendulum swings back the other direction: this is an unsustainable economy and an unsustainable way to live, so there is a reactionary religious response demanding a return to the way things were before (pre-war, in effect, but never separating this from the "social ills" that war results in). The women are blamed for their behavior, despite being demanded by the men around them and made necessary by the economy, and so this reactionary response leads to a religious condemnation of the "wanton" behavior of women.

The religious response in particular gains traction because organized religion offers several very meaningful things that otherwise solve these problems. We see from Septon Meribald toting his goods that the Faith offers charity to the starving. We see with the Sparrows, and personally with Lancel how the Faith offers a sense of meaning to those disenchanted by this strife. We see from the Sparrows and the rise of the High Sparrow how the organized religion of the Faith also offers a means of returning power to the disenfranchised.

So GRRM is achieving something unnervingly realistic here, showing what happens to local economies under wartime and the lingering horror that is left behind—a scenario that is still true of modern war, even if Americans don't have to see it personally. GRRM lived through Vietnam, and the influence is obvious in how the invading American military practiced rape and forced dubiously-consensual sex work onto the local economy.

It's also realistic how organized religion gains traction in scenarios where disenfranchised peoples need sources of hope and methods of organizing to regain what little power is available to them, and how organized religion can leverage a desire for better times into moral condemnation that fuels its rise to increasing levels of de jure power. It will be interesting to see in TWOW and beyond where the trajectory of the High Sparrow leads these people (and what that says about GRRM's observations and interpretations about modern historical parallels).

[blackcat419]

Nettles being from the bottom of society, a black girl, orphan, bastard, poor, homeless, possible sex worker, rising to the top by her wits and ambition makes her literally one of the coolest ASOIAF characters ever. In any other book she’d be the main character!

But only in asoiaf fandom do people look at her and spew the same racism the woman who wants to kill her said and think that’s a “clap back”

Gods I love nettles so much I want her in the show now! Her living on as the queen of the mountains of the moon in the vale would be such a great ending for her character. Or starting a republic or other form of government that isn’t based on inheritance because she’s seen how badly a monarchy can fall apart

[ride-thedragon]

NETTLES AND RHAENYRA, CHARACTER FOILS.

Because I'm not an English teacher

So the question is, How is Nettles Rhaenyra's foil?

1. Appearance .

Rhaenyra is a pretty standard Valyrian beauty. Silver locks, purple eyes, quite pretty, later on in life we get the change that she didn't lose the wait after giving birth to her kids and becùase of misogyny, her beauty has faded. Features like her long hair worn in the style of Visenya and so on are also mentioned. It's giving the Realm's delight in a real sense (not the weird sense).

Nettles, on the other hand, is juxtaposed as 'ugly'. She's brown, is skinny, has crooked teeth, a nose scar, and has short hair.

The maesters like to play to damn much, basically. But they are described as almost exact opposites. Short and long hair, skinny and fat, white and brown skin, purple and brown eyes, etc.

The narrative purpose is to ultimately show their different upbringing and places in this society.

2. Status

Rhaenyra is shown to be the princess, heir to the throne and queen throughout the book. No matter what happens with her, the security and privilege she has almost always goes over what other women have. Her only real threat is the men (and book Alicent) who have personal stake in her not ascending her throne. She's also entirely spoilt as princess and heir by her father and more so her uncle.

Nettles, on the other hand, is introduced to us as an orphan from Driftmark. We're told she could've been a thief and a sex worker by the time we met her. She has no name, lands, titles, or family that we are presented with in the narrative and her backstory for better or less is a patchwork of what her life was possibly like on Driftmark.

Unlike Rhaenyra, we don't follow every salacious rumour and really don't know much about her past.

3. Dragons

Rhaenyra’s dragon Syrax was a cradle egg hatched to her, a Targaryen custom. She's also the youngest dragonrider at 7 I believe.

Nettles claims her dragon at no older than 16 years old. He is a wild dragon (a distinction given to hatched Targaryen dragons that haven't been riden and live away from the keep) and slaughters many before she claims him.

4. Virtue

The notion of virtue in asoiaf is extremely complex, especially with these two women and the vastly different backgrounds. But virginity and speculation also develops both their characterizations in the narrative.

Rhaenyra allegedly "sleeps" with Daemon to practise what she wants to do with Criston (she's 15-). In the show, it becomes obvious that she almost sleeps with Daemon and officially sleeps with Criston. Either way, promiscuity and naivety are written into her character. The only point of conflict is who is involved with what happened in these instances less than what happened. Later on her promiscuity is brought up when Ser Harwin Strong is said to be the father of her first three children.

On the other hand, Nettles' sexual promiscuity is given to her in the narrative. The claims of her being a whore or sleeping around with shepherds are claims made by men who don't know what she was doing at that time. Men who made similar claims about Rhaenyra and their involvement in her loss of virtue as well. Where these stories differ is in Maidenpool, where the assumption of promiscuity is given a different voice.

This time, maids are alluding to an inappropriately close relationship between Daemon and Nettles (yet again, he finds himself here).

5. Daemon

Speak of the devil, and he will appear.

His dynamic is important to these women and their place in the narrative. Saving one dooms the other, leaving with one isolated the other. His decisions ultimately affect one while benefiting the other.

The cruellest example of this dynamic is him letting Nettles go after being the reason she is trapped in the narrative and ultimately dooming Rhaenyra by choosing to kill Aemond instead of going back to her.

His dynamic with both was also comparable with gift giving and quality time and even inappropriate relationship he developed with both of them, notably around similar ages. ( Both these relationships have significant power imbalances).

Between them both, his affection to one affects the other detrimentally.

6. Jace

Specifically in reference to his death, it's notable that within the narrative, while Nettles is described as crying by herself in response to his death, Rhaenyra is hardened by it.

Also, as symbols for legitimacy and legacy, Jace is the reason Nettles is recognised as a dragonseed, and Rhaenyra's line is secured as her first born, but in his absence, Nettles is delegitimised and said to be not a dragonseed. Around that time, Rhaenyra is beginning to be questioned by all the men around her as well, whereas before, Jace was a notable voice in decisions.

7. Dragons in the End.

They both meet their 'end' in the narrative with Dragons. Rhaenyra is killed by her brother's dragon Sunfyre burns and eats her, killing her in front of her son.

Nettles, however, escapes the narrative on dragonback, with the stories that follow explicitly explaining how dragon fire protects her and leads her to become a deity for the burned men.

8. Children

In the narrative, Nettles has no children. Children would explicitly be a burden in her described circumstances as a mouth to feed and someone else to care for. Effectively, children would trap Nettles in a cycle of poverty and inability to experience ethe freedom presented in the narrative.

Rhaenyra is expected to have children to secure her legacy and reign. Children, especially sons, would be her greatest benefit to ensure her ascension to the throne. They are her biggest strategy and losses throughout the war because of that reason.

This dynamic carries out to a head with the death decree for Nettles. The possibility that she would have a child by Daemon is a definitive reason that her 'treason' calls for her head. A child would give her a claimant but also be proof of infidelity by Daemon. It would be a slight to Rhaenyra’s pride and grief as she at this point has lost 4 children during the war.

9. Loyalty of men

This is one of the most interesting for me because the disloyalty of men for Rhaenyra meant the loyalty of men to Nettles. When the Mootons decide not to kill her, they are traitors to Rhaenyra. When Daemon lets her leave, he's a traitor to Rhaenyra. When Corlys stands up for both her and Addam, he's treated like a traitor. Furthermore, the Mootons turn to Aegon’s side directly after because they did not obey her for two reasons, Nettles being accused and sentenced without trial, and Rhaenyra wanting them to break guest right.

Within the narrative, at that point, loyalty to Rhaenyra was a sentence on Nettles' life, and loyalty to Nettles was treason to Rhaenyra.

Conclusion.

In other ways, like the impact of their legacy, the symbols of their identity (dragons), other ways that their narratives with Daemon (the stories) play out and so on juxtapose these women against each other in the narrative. Age and innocence in both a meta and narrative sense also play into Nettles being a foil for Rhaenyra’s character. Personally I think the reason ts written that way is for Nettles to cause a Stark difference in behaviour with men like Daemon and the Mootons as well as to show the contrast of what is expected and what is to be done and what actually happens.

Hope this helps 🩷🤎

[melrosing]

Do you have any thoughts on the Azor Ahai prophecy?

sorry this took a while, I haven't really written much about this in the past so I don't have the relevant shit to hand in the same way. but my thoughts under the cut; conscious this is a contentious issue, so whilst I'm happy to chat about it, pls be normal if engaging.

I think it’s Jon. That doesn’t really get me excited or make me feel anything tbh, I guess because Jon is my least favourite major POV and the Azor Ahai prophecy isn’t one that interests me a whole lot. But I think the only real candidates for Azor Ahai are Jon and Dany, and based on both narrative structure and evidence within the story, I feel fairly confident it’s Jon.

Ofc, the argument for Dany being AA is strong and I think that’s the point. She ticks all the boxes, indeed more than Jon currently does, and the birth of her dragons is pretty much the most fantastic event in the story. She’ll surely have a huge role in ending the Long Night too, so Dany really does fit the bill.

But imo the structure of the story, and of their own personal arcs, favours Jon. I’ll quickly go through why I don’t think it favours Dany.

First off, rules of three: I think it was GRRM’s editor who told us that he likes rules of three in his writing. He makes you think one thing is true, then appears to provide the true solution, before the real answer emerges later on and completely throws you. There are lots of examples of GRRM using this technique in ASOIAF, but let’s go for another example that directly concerns Jon himself: the question of who his mother is.

The first answer we get is a basic one: Ned got Jon on a sex worker, and that’s that. We already know that’s near certainly not the case, because consciously or subconsciously we know that’s not how stories work. Second answer, Jon was born of an affair between Ned and Ashara. This idea is more interesting, has more supporting evidence, and we come across other characters who claim it’s true, like Edric. But still, I think a lot of people (even if they didn’t know R+L=J) would think that still doesn’t feel like the end of it. The closure has come too soon, and it doesn’t have the surprise factor that we know it’s supposed to have. It’s just clean.

Then of course the true answer is one that we still haven’t learnt yet: Ned isn’t even Jon’s father, and his mother is Lyanna, and Jon is the ‘true heir to the 7K’ etc etc etc. I think we’re all extremely used to this information now, but apart from the overwhelming evidence, we accept it because narratively it makes sense. This is the secret third thing, where everything clicks into place in a surprising way and has massive implications for the rest of the story. Rule of three. 

I think the same applies to Azor Ahai. First, we’re told it’s Stannis. He ticks most of the boxes, albeit in a really haphazard way, but we know it’s not Stannis because we know how stories work. Then we’re presented with Dany as the answer. This seems to add up really well: she ticks the boxes far more literally - smoke, salt, bleeding star - and characters like Aemon are convinced it’s Dany.

But I think we run into the same problem here as we do with Ashara. The closure’s come too soon, everything fits too neatly, and honestly it lacks the surprise factor. Dany may be a surprise Azor Ahai to the rest of her world, but she isn’t to the reader: we’ve seen what she’s capable of, and if we were told that Dany is going to save the world, most good faith readers would be like ‘well yeah if anyone’s gonna do it’. And so ironically, that’s how you start to get the feeling it isn’t Dany. It sounds painfully self-contradictory, yeah, but it’s the same as it works with Ashara. Consciously or subconsciously, we know how stories work.

So Jon is the third answer. Jon is intended as the surprise, where he didn’t even seem like a contender, is really just some guy. Except he isn’t. To make sense of this, you really have to forget how obvious R+L=J seems to all of us now, bc time and again GRRM has said he didn’t intend it as obvious, and actually seems a bit frustrated how many people had worked it out - even before the show got to make the reveal. 

Pasting at this juncture the key details of the prophecy:

When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. DAVOS III, ASOS

So Jon is descended from Jaehaerys II and Shaera, as the Ghost of High Heart said TPTWP would be. He is indeed a prince, even if he doesn’t know it. When Melisandre looked for Stannis as TPTWP in the flames, she saw ‘snow’. Jon’s story is the one that most directly concerns the fight against TLN; Dany currently has the potential for the most impact, yes, but at the moment she has absolutely no idea what’s going on beyond the wall, and it’s Jon trying to unite the 7K against the Others. This makes him the strongest thematic fit for the hero who will ultimately end TLN.

Then we have the fact that there are two major things about Jon’s story that have to mean something. 1: Jon is the ‘true heir’ to the 7K, the one no one saw coming, that everyone thought was a nobody. Jon was born of the union between Rhaegar and Lyanna that only a dead man and Howland fucking Reed (likely a man with his own knowledge about the TLN, the Children and the Others) know about. Jon was the child Rhaegar somehow knew he had to have (the ethics of that aside…), that made him realise the prophecy wasn’t about him but someone else. Within the story of ASOIAF, this is seismic. It’s no good to say that Jon’s true heritage is nothing more than a political subplot, that’s not how stories work and it’s certainly not how GRRM writes.

And 2: Jon is going to be fucking resurrected. No, he’s not the first character to come back - Beric and Catelyn both got there before him. But if there’s one thing we can be sure of, Jon is coming back for a reason. We saw how ridiculous it is in the show for Jon to just come back to life and get on with everything like normal. Everyone was asking well why the fuck did he need to die in the first place then. To give him an excuse to leave the Night’s Watch? lol. Nah Jon is going to be reborn for a specific reason. Cannot emphasise enough that it is not GRRM’s style to kill Jon for nothing more than dramatic effect.

And who is going to rebirth him? Melisandre. What is the significance of Melisandre? Fucking everything. Melisandre has not been placed at the Wall to get the prophecy wrong AGAIN. She has been placed at the Wall because that is where the answer is. If Jon is the POV most focused on the TLN and the Others, Melisandre is the POV most focused on the AA prophecy. She is the one trying desperately to solve it, and whose revelation we are awaiting because once again, that’s how stories work: we know that Melisandre is wrong right now, so we anticipate the moment she will be right.

So Melisandre seeing ‘snow’ in her flames means something. Melisandre’s weird connection to Jon means something. Melisandre being the one who, seemingly without knowing it, has been preparing Jon for rebirth since about halfway through ADWD - means something also. R’hllorism and its weird connection to the AA prophecy means something. Melisandre and Ghost both having red eyes, with all the rest in mind, also seems to mean something.

Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost's eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. JON VI, ADWD

And right there’s the fact that Melisandre is the ‘red star of the prophecy’. Everyone thinks it’s the red comet, which we see identified in the ACOK prologue as the ‘bleeding star’ named in the AA prophecy. You know who’s also introduced in that chapter. Fuckin Melisandre. Melisandre and the ruby she wears are alternately described as ‘red’ and ‘star’ - sometimes both together:

Melisandre's ruby glowed like a red star at her throat. DAVOS VI, ASOS

So here’s Melisandre, red as hell, explaining the prophecy. Notice how much she herself seems to embody the imagery of the prophecy - red, flames, blood, burning, etc.

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." DAVOS I, ACOK

So we come to the ‘bleeding/red star’ aspect of the prophecy. Smoke and salt are easy enough to come by, but a star is a more specific requirement. As is a birth (or rebirth). Dany seemed to tick these boxes with the smoke of the pyre, the great salt sea, the birth of her dragons/her figurative rebirth, and the red comet. 

But I think the bleeding/red star is more likely Melisandre and/or her rubies. How either end up bleeding I can’t say, but it’s not hard to imagine. Does Melisandre destroy her ruby to revive Jon, or use her own blood? Maybe she has to die to do it, leaving Jon none the fucking wiser when he awakens what her reason for reviving him even was. That would be fitting: I think Jon won't understand his own significance for some time yet.

Either way, we have our star: Melisandre has been looking everywhere for one, never knowing it was she herself. This is actually a great beat for Mel’s story - for all the times she’s appeared all knowing, she was missing the woods for the trees, and her own significance in it all. It’s tragic, too, because that revelation is perhaps also one of her own demise.

(sidenote: I also think it's more fitting [and more likely] that the decision to burn Shireen and indeed the idea to do it is Stannis' own. in desperation, he attempts to fulfil what he recalls of Melisandre's methods, but butchers everything in doing so.)

Next we need smoke and salt, and as mentioned, those are straightforward. We’ve been told the Wall has plenty of salt lol, and light a few candles and you’ve got smoke - not to mention Melisandre loves a bit of fire, so figures there will be smoke involved in Jon’s rebirth either way. So salt and smoke both sound like pretty standard ingredients for a resurrection, I don’t think it’s much worth elaborating.

Then what’s left? ‘A birth/rebirth a day after a long summer’, check, we’re told again and again through ADWD that we’re on the brink of winter. ‘When the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world’, check again - Jon is right there on the scene. 

The flaming sword comes after the rebirth, but it’s a given that Jon will wield one - it’s right there in his dreams:

Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. ADWD, JON XII

(another sidenote: look, a song of ice and fire. I’m aware that GRRM has previously stated that Dany’s fire and the battle against the others are the titular ice and fire, because he’s sure not going to say ‘by the way it’s also Jon’ when he hasn’t revealed anything about Jon yet. But we know that Rhaegar anticipates a child who embodies ‘the song of ice and fire’, and you cannot associate Dany with ice. Dany IS fire.)

I think Jon probably already has Lightbringer, and it’s Longclaw - we see that Ghost is tied in with the red of it all, and who is atop the sword but Ghost. Valyrian steel obviously also has some fantastical role still to play, and it’s notable that Jaime envisions he and Brienne also wielding flaming Valyrian swords (their flames are blue, of course, and Jaime doesn’t know in the dream that the blades are Valyrian, but the point stands that there’s some connection between flaming swords and Valyrian steel going on, and that that all ties to TLN).

So all that’s really left is to wake dragons from stone. This is one where I can’t really guess what it’ll mean - my best guess is that Jon will find dragonsteel at Dragonstone, because even if he did somehow hatch further dragons they’d be damn babies for the duration of the Long Night, but really this part could point to something we can’t yet guess at, so whatever.

And finally, there’s Jon’s heritage. The Targaryens are tied to the wielding of fire, to Valyrian steel, and to dragons. The Starks are tied to winter, to the Wall, to the old gods and the North. Jon’s heritage is representative of the two forces that need to unite to overcome the Others. 

I don’t want to get into how exactly Jon ties into the mythos of the Night King and what undead Jon might look like, because whilst there’s plenty in there that no doubt ALSO supports the prophecy, I freely admit I just haven’t looked into it all that much bc it’s not a passion point for me, so I'm not going to seriously try. But we do have this part from Benerro's prophecy:

death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her [referring to Dany as TPTWP] cause shall be reborn... ADWD, TYRION VI

You can make this really figurative to get it to work for Dany, but it would make a lot more sense for Jon. He'll rise from the dead (death itself will bend the knee) and 'all those who die fighting in [TPTWP's] cause shall be reborn' - hey just like the Others are. Is Jon somehow going to have his own army of the undead? Possibly.

So, cumulatively:

Jon will unite ice and fire, armoured in ice and wielding a flaming sword

Jon’s Stark and Targaryen heritage are figuratively significant

Rhaegar foresaw the significance of Jon. Rhaegar has been wrong in a lot in all senses of the word, but I think he’s going to be right on this point - on ONE fucking point

Jon will be reborn a day after winter comes

Jon will be reborn beneath a bleeding red star

Plenty of scope for salt and smoke to be involved

Jon will wield a flaming red sword

Jon will be on the ground as darkness approaches and lead the charge against it

Jon will make death bend the knee

Jon may lead an army of the 'reborn'

Melisandre is the POV with the greatest fixation on the Azor Ahai prophecy, and Melisandre is beginning to realise the significance of Jon + will be responsible for bringing him back

Jon is the Secret Third Thing

etc etc 

And finally, bc I’ve seen many, many heated arguments over this, I want to establish some things myself before signing off:

I am engaging in good faith here. I have come to these conclusions through reading the books and considering all sides, and think this is a very legitimate reading of the text

This resolution to the prophecy is not something I am invested in. Jon hardly makes my top 20 characters in ASOIAF, and Azor Ahai is not a prophecy I crave an answer for. I’m a lot more interested the southern storylines (in case you couldn't tell)

Dany, meanwhile, is a character I like about five times as much as I like Jon. I’ve not reached the conclusion I have because I think she’s not capable of being AA (currently, I think she’s a whole lot more capable than Jon). I’m only judging based on where I think the story and evidence gestures

I agree that there’s potentially problematic subtext in introducing Dany, a young girl who subverts the typical ‘chosen boy’ narrative by fighting every adversity to be a hero for the ages, [edit - forgot the other half of the sentence orz] only to say actually nah it was special boy Jon all along. It’s difficult to say exactly how egregious I’m going to find it when that comes to be because I don’t have the material to judge, but I fully understand why people find the idea of Jon Snow as AA such a deeply frustrating idea, and I may well share in that frustration when it comes to it

Again: I’m engaging in good faith, so if you want to discuss, please afford me the same. We are discussing a fantasy series

[selkiewife]

I didn't expect to be fixating on the show only character of Ros this late in my asoiaf/got journey (and particularly for Two Weeks of Theon) but here we are. I'm kind of obsessed how she grew from a character that was only supposed to be in one episode and then into a series regular with an entire arc that parallels the main characters in interesting ways and who GRRM said may be added to the books. I loved the way she verbally sparred with Theon, challenging him. There was a fan theory when the show was still airing that Ros would get Jeyne Poole's arc in the show. The theory was that Little Finger would use her as a stand in for Sansa to marry Ramsay. I know a lot of people would have hated this as much as they hated Sansa getting the Jeyne Poole arc, but I always found the idea fascinating. She already had a relationship with Theon and she would also have kept the original themes (of Jeyne not being a Stark and being considered "unimportant") in tact. In fact those themes may have been more pronounced since Ros was also a sex worker, older and lowborn. I would have definitely been here for it and would love to explore it in a fanfic one day. Of course, in my fanfic Ros would survive and triumph.

TWO WEEKS OF THEON ↳ Lovers & Friends

[elegantwoes]

It’s funny how Criston’s line about how every woman should be treated like the mother is used as an example of how he’s a misogynist who has a Madonna/Whore complex when the topic of the conversation between him and Aemond is the red light district and sex workers. Criston includes them in his label of respectable women. How on earth can he believe in the Madonna/Whore dichotomy when he says treat prostitutes like the mother? If anything he obliterates the dichotomy. This line of Criston is arguably one of the most progressive thing any HOTD character said. Heck even ASOIAF too. The only other character who shows any care towards sex workers is Brienne of Tarth. To be the only one that can be compared to Brienne in this situation is impressive as fuck. And I will not stop reminding this fandom of that.

[crazycoke-addict]

Alicent saved Dyana from torture.

In House Of the Dragon, Alicent Hightower finds out that her son aegon had raped a handmaiden named Dyana. Dyana helps with the kids for Helaena, so she was a good help for them. Alicent embraces Dyana, which only does with Helaena. Alicent helps Dyana but also in a way threatens her into silence and has her drink moon tea to prevent a pregnancy.

Many fans see this as Alicent trying to protect Aegon and his reputation so he can still have support to claim the iron throne. I can see that because she is protecting Aegon's reputation by belittling Rhaenyra's but only because this is a political move so that Viserys may change his mind about his succession.

So, in a way, she protects her son, who could damage his reputation, but when you look into context and how women are especially low-born like Dyana are being treated. Alicent saved her from being tortured. Women in westeroes are treated worse because the patriarchal system that with holds them.

Men can get away with a lot of things like adultery, fathering bastards and even rape. While women are punished for things. Women who have been raped are also punished and treated horrible, it's worse if you're a sex worker. Dyana spoke out about what Aegon did to her. She would be more punished than aegon would ever be.

You could say that if Viserys was alive as king, he would save her life from being tormented because Viserys has little to know about his kids with Alicent. However, we only see Viserys being angry at kids whenever it involves Rhaenyra, his favourite child. So, while he could spare Dyana's life, there's that question if he would.

Many fans claim that Alicent shows her hypocrisy for getting Dyana to drink the moontea when she resented Rhaenyra for doing the same years ago. I think people forget the reason why Alicent was mad at Rhaenyra and why she never trusts her again.

Alicent finds out by hearing that Rhaenyra was seen in a brothel with Daemon, Rhaenyra's uncle, and that she lost her virtue to him. Alicent and Rhaenyra were starting to repair their friendship that was strained, so hearing what Rhaenyra allegedly did. Alicent believes that Rhaenyra needs to honour her virtue and not be reckless. Alicent does want to Rhaenyra to rule.

Alicent confronts Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra tells half of the truth. She said that she was at brothel but that Daemon never slept with her nor touched her. Daemon never slept with her, but he did touch her. Rhaenyra lies to Alicent that she is still a virgin because Rhaenyra lost it to Criston Cole. Alicent believes her and tries to defend her against Otto.

It wasn't until Larys Strong who told her that he heard that a maester was seen heading over to Rhaenyra's chambers while holding a cup, which is most likely moontea. Alicent isn't mad at Rhaenyra for drinking moontea. She's mad that Rhaenyra lied to her. She feels so naive and betrayed by the one person that she thought she could trust.

Alicent does find out that it was Criston Cole who Rhaenyra lost her virginity. But instead of telling the king, she chose to keep it for herself. At that time, Alicent didn't know Criston that much, and she did need allies. Alicent kept this dark secret for years, which saved both Criston and Rhaenyra. Alicent could've said something, especially when Rhaenyra kept getting away with having illegitimate children, but she chose to stay silent.

Alicent gives Dyana moon tea to prevent a pregnancy. Alicent is seen as a horrible person for doing this because of her alleged hypocrisy, but I had already told you why. If Dyana has this child, it would be a lot harder. Alicent could've let Dyana stay in the redkeep, but people may start talking, and they already are.

I'm more concerned for Dyana's health because moontea is something that needs to be made very carefully. In the ASOIAF, it was revealed that Lysa Arryn, Catelyn's sister, drank moontea, ordered by her father because she technically raped Littlefinger. Lysa almost died from it, and it could only produce a sickly boy. So, it's good that maester orwyle knows how to make moontea carefully.

When Alicent hugs and comforts Dyana, you can see it as a manipulation tactic to silence Dyana from saying anything. But later on, Alicent hugs Helaena tightly because she is deeply saddened for Helaena and probably feels regret for setting up the marriage. Alicent isn't that affection towards her children besides Helaena. So, her hugging Dyana shows she does have sympathy for her.

When Alicent confronts Aegon, she slaps him and says that he is no son of hers. Alicent says that raping Dyana is a humiliation to his wife, Helaena, and technically, it does.

Dyana was probably the most helpful to Helaena with the kids, but because of Aegon's actions, Dyana left the red keep, and it's likely that Dyana was like a friend to Helaena. There's a scene where Helaena tells the newhandmaiden who looks uninterested about something interesting. It is possible that Dyana was the only one who may have understood Helaena or at least interested in what she had to say.

So, yes, Alicent does protect her son, but she also saves a girl from being tortured because the world in westeroes isn't kind to women like Dyana and especially women like Alicent.

[swallowtail-ageha]

Scrolling through your asoiaf tag and you have such good and correct opinions like how can anyone love just Dany or just Sansa or just Arya like how can anyone not see the parallels between Dany and Sansa it makes me feel so crazy like why are there so few people who love all the girlies?? I genuinely love every single female POV character and can’t imagine hating any of them. I mean sure yeah Cersei is a villain but you’re telling me her tragedy doesn’t touch your heart? Watching this woman desperately try to avoid her prophecy as it unfolds before you doesn’t have you in a death grip? Or like are you unmoved by Sansa telling an annoying snotty little boy how brave he is because she wants him to feel better? Dany comforting Missandei when her brother dies? Arya getting to the house of the black and white and immediately thinning to being a man a cup of water (or at least what she thought was water)? How about Sansa telling Joffrey she hopes Robb cuts his head off? Dany sassing the man who wants to open the fighting pits? Arya telling Jaquen to kill himself? Like please come on. All three girls are obviously different but they share so many very endearing traits. I am fiercely holding tight to my delusion that Dany and Sansa will bond over stories and songs and Arya will teach Dany about all the flowers in Westeros and then Sansa will show them how to make flower crowns and embroider little emblems on Arya’s clothes

First of all tysm!!!!

The whole arya vs sansa vs dany fandom fight frustrates me to no end, mainly because all parties involved seem to have little to no empathy to the characters whose stans they oppose. It's all maliciously extrapolating some parts of the text to make them see worse than what they are (ex: daenerys' "if i look back i am lost" getting twisted from "dany knows that dwelling on what ifs and turning your back after you have taken a commitment will only damage you in the long term" in "dany doesn't want to reflect on her past mistakes and will go mad and get stabbed to death" or sansa getting frustrated at sweetrobin being a sign of her being ableist and classist while it's. Just a normal reaction of a stressed and traumatized 13 yo who is otherwise very sweet to her cousin)

For loving the female characters same! Even those who commit outwardly villainous acts do get lots of humanizing moments, Cersei, as awful as she is, is simply a product of the hyper misogynistic society she lives in plus years of parental and spousal abuse (and the doomed by prophecy vibes) and. I genuinely don't get how people can look at the walk of shame and say it's a fitting punishment to her crimes

Overall all the hate for female characters that are more complex or more driven or more morally ambiguous than what most female characters are presented as in other media in a fandom who (supposedly) prides itself in liking morally ambiguous characters is.. frustrating, really. I blame both fandom misogyny but also the GoT series, as it's outright changes in female character's actions and stories to make them look better or worse than what they originally were skewered the visions of almost everyone in the fandom (arya is an egregious victim of this. Scenes such as her caring for Weasel or her befriending sex workers in braavos don't exist and they added that "all girls are idiot" scene that i hate and they removed all her plan to free the northmen from harrenal and she got turned from traumatized child to hashtag no one super cool assassin and her character got straight up murdered in the tv series.)

Oh and also for kickstarting the whole jonsa vs jonerys thing which i'm pretty sure is the origin of the stupid dany vs sansa wars

And yes!! Dany Sansa and Arya should get to meet and reunite! While i do think that there will be some slight tensions between Sansa and Arya because they left on Not So Well terms, they have also matured a lot, so i do think they would have an heartfelt reunion. Meanwhile Dany and Arya could bond because of both their connection to Braavos and Arya's admiration for those who free slaves, and Dany would empathize (and feel a common ground) with Sansa for her being a child who had all her family die and got married extremely young while beeing creeped on by older men, while Sansa, who is shown to admire women like Margaery or Myranda, who are shown to be very keen regarding politics or social issues, something that Dany is

In the end, i genuinely hope that all three of these traumatized little girls get their happy ending and none of them dies, they all are interesting and complex characters that share parallels with each other, and it sucks that because of stupid ship wars or discussions on who would get the throne they get pitted against each other. THEY WOULD BE FRIENDS Y'ALL

[dipperscavern]

the ponderer has been called upon, the ponderer has pondered, the ponderer has answered. FREAKY PONDERER OUT, LIBRARIAN PONDERER IN!

the only mentions of body hair removal from the neck down in the asoiaf universe from what i remember off the top of my head is roose bolton’s freaky ass being clean shaven (which is my favourite thing ever btw hes so fucking weird for that literally what is his issue im crying thats why his son gets down and dirty like that) and then when they shaved cercei for her walk of shame. OH and also, tormund says that wildlings don’t shave as a jest, which would infer that southern women are a bit more concerned about shaving for aesthetics. basically they never mention it in talks of sex. which makes it seem like not a big deal.

historically— being that the asoiaf universe is essentially just a reflection medieval european society in its customs, shaving was not yet seen as a norm. though it did exist in certain contexts; female sex workers would shave their pubic hair to prevent spread of sti’s (i.e., pubic lice), and as a kind of proof of cleanliness. there is documented evidence that high born ladies also shaved but, again, not a norm at the time.

[upon further examination, it seems that shaving being synonymous with cleanliness is largely a result of religious beliefs and their interpretation of cleanliness which i could see happening in an asoiaf context with the high septon and the faith of the seven as they did shave cercei for her cleansing ritual… thats just food for thought; it remains that cregan would not give a fuck though because i do not believe that in the faith of the old gods they conglomerate shaving and cleanliness 🤷‍♀️ JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT]

TDLR;;; cregan dgaf. northern men in general. i doubt southern men hold clean shaven women in high regard either. there’s probably some freak that likes bare pussy but its not cregan or any stark man. that’s canon. this was way too long of an explanation just to say that hairy pussy is better than no pussy sorry guys

ROOSE BOLTON IS CLEAN SHAVEN?? DID I SKIM OVER THAT CHAPTER? I AM IN TEARS 😭😭 “roose boltons freaky ass” pondering anon my silliest goose (also ur asks r never too long. EVER.)

anyways, shaving being synonymous w cleanliness in the interperated eyes of the seven makes a lot of sense. when i read cersei being shaved i didn’t even really register it, but it definitely makes sense. like the hair on her head (i think) it was kind of a symbolism for her being renewed, wiping the slate clean yk?

i can see some highborn ladies being prickly about it, especially with the amount of lords into uh.. children. so it would make sense they’d want them to present more…. yk? picking up what i’m putting down here?

also, ur so right. i don’t think the old gods would care about that either. jon says something about wanting to take ygritte under the weirwood tree in the godswood, “in the sight of the old gods”. my point is it shows that the old gods are very sex-positive (and jon was like 15 when he said that, so they’re taught those beliefs from a very young age)

and YES. REGARDLESS OF CUTLURE, THE STARK MEN WOULD NOT CAREEEEE FIGHT ME ACTUALLY SWING ON IT

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

The Sheep & the Ram: Nettles

The Sheep

Sheepstealer

The presence of sheep in media has often been used to symbolize innocence. Now, while this animal is often used to represent children, women and other creatures of chastity, in ASOIAF, the sheep are the people of the lowest caste in Westeros, the smallfolk. This comparison is both contradictory and appropriate for the treatment of the smallfolk narratively and in-universe.

- Contradictory, because the smallfolk are almost never treated as innocents worth protecting by most of the nobility in ASOIAF. They are always associated with impurity, they never get a trial for any suspected crimes, and are often killed for petty schemes.

- Appropriate, because of how they fit the characteristics of sheep,- they lack individuality, much like sheep in a herd. This is due to the fact that ASOIAF is written from the perspective of nobility, whose narratives do not usually pay much interest in the people beneath them, despite the smallfolk taking the brunt of every decision made by them.

Nettles being low born means that she has lived most of her life as a part of nameless, faceless, herd. The sheep she slaughtered at the beginning of her story is meant to represent her, and its death represents the birth of the identity she gained through becoming a dragon rider.

Sealed in Blood

Nettles’ bonding with Sheepstealer as described in Fire and Blood :

“In the end, the brown dragon was brought to heel by the cunning and persistence of a “small brown girl” of six-and-ten, who delivered him a freshly slaughtered sheep every morning, until Sheepstealer learned to accept and expect her. ”

As stated in the quote above, Nettles claims Sheepstealer by feeding him freshly slaughtered sheep everyday. Freshly slaughtered, meaning there was always blood on them, blood shed by Nettles. In my post about Nettles and her relations to the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone, I stated that her bond with Sheepstealer protected her in a way that mirrors the protection motherhood gives the noblewomen in Westeros. Blood in ASOIAF is often used as the seal for transactions,- the blood shed from a woman in the consummation of marriage validating the union, sacrifices needed for blood magic,etc.

Narratively, GRRM’s characters are given new identities after a blood sacrifice is done. When Daenerys sacrifices Mirri, Drogo, and herself to hatch her dragons, Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal, she comes out of the pyre as the mother of dragons. When Jaime is knighted by Ser Arthur Dayne, he is cut by the sword Dawn, and stands up Ser Jaime Lannister. When Nettles sacrifices sheep to Sheepstealer, she comes out as the Unlikely Dragonrider.

Disillusionment

One of the most explored concepts in the main series of ASOIAF is disillusionment.

Regardless of how they came to be, all of GRRM’s characters have their own motives and ambitions. He never plays his tropes straight though, so the journeys that his characters go on in pursuit of fulfilling their intentions is usually plagued with trauma, loss and disillusions,-all of which Nettles would come to face while fighting in the Dance.

We are not explicitly told Nettles’ reasoning for approaching Sheepstealer, but the most compelling arguments are ambition, and the need to protect the innocent. GRRM has told the stories of people born in the lowest class of Westeros trying to make better for themselves by climbing up the social ladder and getting as integrated as possible with the noble-class of Westeros. In the Game of Thrones series, we meet Ros, a sex worker from the North who goes to Kingslanding, and began working with Petyr Baelish. Petyr was on the King’s small council as the Master of Coin and was the owner of several brothels. His position and alliance with Ros brought her more profit and better protection than she would’ve got working alone. In both the books and the show, we meet Shae, a young teenage prostitute who is hired by Tyrion Lannister. Tyrion is the son of the Lord of Casterly Rock, and later becomes the Hand of the King. Shae and Ros would’ve had clients from all social backgrounds in their time of being sex workers, but their proximity to these men grants them individuality, and puts them a mere step up from the faceless women in the brothels. (It’s important to note that both of these women met a tragic end at the hands of high-born lords and ladies, despite their proximity to powerful men.)

Nettles’ climb up the social ladder was a more ‘masculine’ approach by Westeros’ standards. She gains her personhood through violence and participating in a war, the way the low-born men in the series do; Davos would be the best example. Fire and Blood does not explicitly state what Rhaenyra planned to reward Nettles with, but we do have a conversation from Ulf the White and Hugh the Hammer:

“We are knights now, truly,” Hard Hugh declared. And Ulf laughed and said, “Fie on that. We should be lords.”

The reward for fighting in war for men is either knighthood and lordship, both of which Nettles could never attain, due to the gender expectations in Westeros. She could also be granted further legitimacy, by being legalized as a Velaryon, and maybe be married off, but I find this to be very unlikely due to how much Fire and Blood emphasizes how undesirable she is by Westeros’ standards. Regardless, there had to be something compelling enough for her to look upon a beast that had slain all the men that tried to mount it, and dare to approach it.

I’ve limited it down to to two plausible explanations:

- She wanted to protect her home. Her people. Her entire story is told by Maesters who’ve never met her and it only starts when she claims Sheepstealer. We know nothing of her life prior the dance, but Nettles is human. She likely lived in Spicetown all her life. She must’ve had friends, family, or a community she wanted to protect.

- She wanted to be in a better situation. There are many speculations on what Nettles may have had to do in order to survive. All of them tie her to theft or sex work, which are both plausible possibilities, there aren’t many viable options for low-born girls.

In the previously quoted conversation, Ulf and Hugh are celebrating a victory that was mourned by many, including Nettles.

“The girl Nettles did not share their celebrations. She had flown with the others, fought as bravely, burned and killed as they had, but her face was black with smoke and streaked with tears when she returned to Dragonstone.”

This would have been her very first battle, ever, and one of the most destructive battles in the Dance of the Dragons. If we operate under the assumption that Nettles joined this war to better her life, then immediately fought in this battle, it would lead to the question: Was it worth it?

It’s a question that GRRM has his readers ponder on after allowing his characters to get something they aspired to have at the beginning of their story. Nettles’ claiming of Sheepstealer has always been transactional,- offering of freshly killed sheep, identifying as the bastard of a noble house, becoming a dragon-rider, fighting in war,- all of these actions led to her gaining individuality, worth and safety she would’ve never had before the Dance, but, the cost was her playing a hand in the bloodshed and violence nobility would enact on her people.

After the Battle of the Gullet, thousands of people died, including Prince Jacaerys, the Velaryon fleet lost a third of its strength, and the young Prince Viserys was thought to be dead. It’s no surprise that these losses were included in the accounts of Fire and Blood, as they all affect prominent people in Westeros,- Queen Rhaenyra lost her two sons, and Lord Corlys Velaryon has lost an good amount of his wealth, assets and his fleet. But the part of the aftermath that stood out the most in its relation to Nettles:

“Spicetown was brutally sacked, the bodies of men, women, and children butchered in the streets and left as fodder for gulls and rats and carrion crows, its buildings burned. The town would never be rebuilt.”

“and two “cousins” from Driftmark, left homeless when Spicetown was destroyed.”

Her sacrifice, her bravery all meant nothing as her home was destroyed. If she had friends, neighbors, family, they would’ve likely been dead.

The Ram

The Rogue Prince and Misogyny (-noir)

The only relationship of hers that was recorded in Fire and Blood, was her relationship with Daemon :

“Maester Norren writes that “the prince and his bastard girl” supped together every night, broke their fast together every morning, slept in adjoining bedchambers, that the prince “doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter,” instructing her in “common courtesies” and how to dress and sit and brush her hair, that he made gifts to her of “an ivory-handled hairbrush, a silvered looking glass, a cloak of rich brown velvet bordered in satin, a pair of riding boots of leather soft as butter.” The prince taught the girl to wash, Norren says, and the maidservants who fetched their bath water said he oft shared a tub with her, “soaping her back or washing the dragon stink from her hair, both of them as naked as their namedays.”

“Each dawn Caraxes and Sheepstealer flew from Maidenpool, climbing high above the riverlands in ever-widening circles in hopes of espying Vhagar below…only to return defeated at dusk.”

“By the dwarf’s account, Daemon Targaryen had come to love the small brown bastard girl, and had taken her into his bed.”

In the quotes above, there are two accounts with different interpretations of their relationship. Maester Norren insists that their relationship is that of a father and daughter, and provides examples of Daemon’s “fatherly” affection, which oddly includes sharing baths with his daughter. On the flip side, you have Mushroom stating that their relationship was in fact a romantic one.

Now, it is explicitly stated in Fire and Blood that Daemon was not loyal to Rhaenyra, so loyalty to his wife cannot be used as a reason why he would not be romantically involved with Nettles. Nor could age, as he was known to enjoy the company of young maidens in brothels.

“Nettles was no more than ten-and-seven, Prince Daemon nine-and-forty, yet the power young maidens exert over older men is well-known. Daemon Targaryen was not a faithful consort to the queen, we know. Even our normally reticent Septon Eustace writes of his nightly visits to Lady Mysaria, whose bed he oft shared whilst at court…with the queen’s blessing, purportedly.”“Nor should it be forgotten that during his youth, every brothel keeper in King’s Landing knew that Lord Flea Bottom took an especial delight in maidens, and kept aside the youngest, prettiest, and more innocent of their new girls for him to deflower.”

This leads us to main issue with Norren and Septon Eustace’s argument and that is the fact that it is entirely dependent on how “unattractive” Nettles is. Munkun and Eustace emphasize how undesirable she is by focusing on the fact that she was a lowborn woman whose only options to survive were likely prostitution or theft. In terms of her physical appearance, she’s described as skinny, with brown skin, a scar across her nose and crooked teeth. This description does not make her relationship with Daemon any less unlikely, given the author who wrote it. Even if Nettles is in fact physically unattractive, and does not resemble any of Daemon’s previous lovers, she is still capable of being loved. George has written a similar dynamic with Brienne and Jaime in the main series. Daemon, like Jaime, fits comfortably with the expectations of men during their time- he fought in wars, he’s been married, he produced children, etc. Nettles, much like Brienne (though their situations are not exactly the same), does not fit into the ideal expectations for women in Westeros. The two of them are consistently described as unattractive. They also take on more “masculine” positions, with Brienne serving as a knight, and Nettles fighting in a war.

Identity

Nettles is theorized in text and by the fan base to be the daughter of Daemon, and other Lords with Valyrian blood. This usually is used as an explanation for her being able to ride a dragon. Narratively, Nettles and Sheepstealer are quite different from House Targaryen and their dragons. For starters, Sheepstealer is a wild dragon, who are described to be notoriously untamable. After rejecting Alyn and eating the other dragonseeds, he accepted Nettles. Nettles in Fire and Blood looks nothing like the other dragon riders who are all fair-skinned with light hair. So even though her being a dragon rider gives her proximity to the ruling class, it is made clear in Fire and Blood she does not have prominent Valyrian ancestry.

Departure

When her and Daemon part, Nettles is recorded killing and feeding the largest black ram in Maidenpool to Sheepstealer. After she disappears from Maidenpool, she is not seen again. Nettles lost everything to the Dance of the Dragons, including her connections to humanity. Her home, her loved ones, her identity, all gone. The sheep in the beginning of her story represents the birth of her identity, and when she kills it she is no longer faceless like the rest of smallfolk. The ram represents Nettles after seeing the horrors of war, of sex, of people, etc. Nettles kills her newfound identity as a bastard of House Targaryen (or House Velaryon), as Daemon’s alleged mistress, as the Unlikely Dragonrider.