#daemon and nettles

[ride-thedragon]

THE MANY WAYS TO TAME A DRAGON : BY NETTLES.

Find time in the day to be with them.

Keep up with certain rituals.

Know that there will be rumours.

Accept their little gifts.

Know that they'll protect you.

And by then, you should have claimed a dragon.

[kataraavatara]

i hate, hate, HATE when nettles “fans” say something along of “omg nettles got Daemon to leave his Valyrian wife for her 💅she’s just that girl” because IF (and I mean IF, because Daemon + Nettles is a highly contested claim within the text, so stop treating it as fact) IF Daemon and Nettles were together, this makes Nettles a victim, not some kind of girlboss. She is a teenager and he is an adult. “Haha she was so much better he left Rhaenyra for her” that is a tragedy, not a flex. How are you a “fan” of her character if you are cheering on something bad happening to her? The answer is you’re not, plain and simple. You do not care about her!!

[horizon-verizon]

I don't think Nettles was Daemon's biological daughter, but I think he probably saw her as a daughter for him. She was after all his daughters' age and Daemon had already lost children. The attachment could have been very simple. Especially since Nettles was a dragon rider. You explain the case of baths very well, probably better than I ever have. But these people don't care. I gave up arguing with Nettles fans a long time ago. Most just hate Rhaenyra too.

@darklinaforever is talking about this recent set of reblogs from a person who before had invited me to look at their arguments for why Rhaenyra was a real and inevitable danger to Alicent's children and then asked why I thought why I didn't think "dettles" was a thing.

I saw it more as an opportunity. This person brought up a few new things AND peeved me with the "that's what everyone thinks" (of "dettles") and trying to say that their interpretation of "dettles" doesn't come from an interpretation that is itself sexist/classist in nature, thus biased. I now have more ammo for my own arguments.

As for Nettles being Daemon's bio daughter or not, I'm comfortable with either but more enamoured with her being his bio daughter. It holds more dramatic weight, for him to find out she is his blood only to lose her in the same year; her as well.

[darklinaforever]

About Nettles and Daemon in Fire and Blood, when it says he treated her like a man treats his daughter, but then it's reported that they apparently took baths together, people tend to all immediately use this aspect to prove that he slept with her. Off, it is quite possible that the two simply had a close and strong platonic relationship. Sharing baths does not necessarily mean SEX. Even the story says that this element does not prove that they had relations, although obviously the story (quite anti Targaryen I recall) seeks to guide us in this belief. Not to mention that this aspect of the relationship was reported by servants, and believe me, I've seen enough historical series to know that servants tend to extrapolate / distort certain things, even in other cases outright invented them to fuel discussions to have something to talk about. But even if he took baths with her, that doesn't necessarily mean they slept together. Not everyone has the same conceptions of / the same relationship to nudity.

[hamliet]

What do you think of Daemon and Nettles's relationship?

Is she Daemon's bastard daughter or is she his lover?

I kind of answered that here, but I am genuinely not sure she was either. I get why people assume one or the other, with the affair being the most common assumption.

However, I feel like both interpretations fall back on cynicism and are weak when it comes to what they offer the themes of the story and our understandings of the characters. To be fair, Martin can be quite cynical, but he's still a Romantic, and there's probably a reason he left it unconfirmed. Readers can decide what the story means for each of us.

That said, I genuinely think the themes of the story offer a completely different take on their relationship, one that is far more hopeful and yet sad than either of these. I'll paste what I said in the linked post here, as well as the textual evidence for it.

The tl;dr is that I think Nettles wasn't his daughter and wasn't his lover, but instead a child Daemon was trying to do right by. I'm very open to being "wrong," but I don't think we'll ever get any sort of confirmation either way, and I can back my theory up with the text just as well as those other theories, so.

When the text mentions rumors (which I’ve been paying attention to as I reread ASOIAF), it’s usually NOT one or the other, but usually a mixture of the two with some unknown third component there.

The problem is that both of the two options severely weaken a different theme.

Like, if Nettles is his daughter, that reinforces the idea that magic is only for a certain bloodlines, and while there is some truth to this in ASOIAF, it’s not fully the truth, and it seems very very odd to me that George would stick to this one fantasy trope and not deconstruct it like he usually does. Tyrion is most likely a dragon rider in ASOIAF alongside Jon and Dany, and it is much more powerful if he is not a Targaryen.

As for the more likely option–cheating–also weakens the themes because again, a queen is not paranoid and losing everyone if she’s right. I’ve seen some speculate Rhaenyra didn’t write that letter, but it is most likely that Rhaenyra did write that letter, because in a tragedy, she must bring about her own downfall. The problem is that it is a lot less thematically powerful if Rhaenyra is right about Daemon cheating on her.

The most powerful thematic option is if Daemon just saw a kid who had power and tried to protect her from the war. Maybe trying to get some insight into her powers, maybe not. But he loses Rhaenyra in the end because of her own inability to trust, and then what does Daemon do? He decides to essentially die tragically defeating Rhaenyra’s most formidable enemy: Aemond and Vhagar.

When there’s no love left, there’s still duty towards a queen.

Like, no, of course that isn’t “couple goals.” I’m not saying it’s some great fantastical romance that we should all swoon at. But I’m also saying that it is true that Daemon’s life was defined by love, which is way more thematically consistent with Martin’s works than “bad guy do bad thing.”

[qyburnsghost]

They deleted Nettles to make Rhaenyra look better, but invented Dyana to make Aegon look worse!

[amuelia]

Daemon Targaryen and Nettles / Aemond Targaryen and Alys

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Believe it or not, scrapping Nettles and giving her storyline to Rhaena is a big disservice towards Team Black.

Why?

Because Rhaena being able to hatch a dragon after Rhaenyra died (whereas the Greens couldn’t), was a symbol of hope for victory for the Blacks (the right side). Even the Greens were scared of what Morning being born meant for the Realm.

It was basically proof of the Gods favoring the Blacks, and it’s what inspired Rhaenyra’s forces to strike and defeat the usurper.

[atopcat]

Super worried about how they’re going to handle Nettles, my only hope is that the show makes parallels between how Daemon groomed teenage Rhaenyra to how he interacts with another teenage girl.

I want a scene where Rhaenyra realises the kind of monster Daemon has always been. This man would openly insult his “bronze bitch” older wife whilst fawning over his 14 year old niece. She’s the new Rhea Royce whilst Nettles is the new her, that realisation should hit like a ton of bricks.

Would honestly add so much more nuance to the story rather than it being Angry Wife vs. Teenage Mistress.

[ride-thedragon]

Daemon Betrays Rhaenyra.

This discourse has been here since I started posting so I should explain.

Daemon does, in fact, betray Rhaenyra when he saves Nettles and his subsequent actions in more than one way.

1. He doesn't punish the Mootons for their treason.

The Mootons are given a direct order from their queen to kill Nettles. They conspire and plot about ways to avoid the order, to carry it out, and possible consequences for that. By the end, they decide to disobey her and give the letter to Daemon under the false pretence that they hadn't seen it. They are made aware that the queen has a suspicion that Nettles is a witch charming the prince and still do this. None of this is known or punished, and they declare for the Greens.

2. He allows Nettles to escape.

When Daemon reads the letter, he stays with Nettles for the night and watches her escape on dragon back in the morning without interference. Choosing to leave Maidenpool and go to Harrenhall instead of what Rhaenyra called for, his urgent return.

3. He does not return to Rhaenyra.

By not returning to Rhaenyra, he disobeys and betrays her. By letting Nettles escape, he disobeys and betrays her. Nettles is specifically tied to his survival in the narrative. Without her at his side, it is impossible for him to survive.

4. He fights Aemond, Alone.

So he dies. The bards and I have a misunderstanding because of this (fuck the bards) but Daemon himself says that neither one of them can take Aemond on and survive. He chooses death.

We can argue over why he did it, but in the written narrative, the only catalyst we have is Nettles' departure. Before that, we can see his expression go from happy and them small talking to him, genuinely distraught by the letter and staying with her for the night.

Saying that this is only because of Rhaenyra fundamentally misunderstands one point:

The catalyst for the Battle Above the God's Eye is Nettles' departure. Before it, Aemond evaded Daemon, and Daemon stayed at her side. Both in the book and more so the show, known reactionary Daemon Targaryen would not have hesitated to prove himself, at least bringing her to the court to prove their loyalty.

[bohemian-nights]

People really are missing the point of a character like Nettles. Being the a non-Valyrian dragonrider is what makes her different(in every positive definition of that word) and helps to serve a larger purpose in this story.

Valyrian blood is not special. It’s not needed to do great things. No one is special because of what family they happen to be born into.

A non-Valyrian Nettles shows that we are more than the circumstances which we are born into. Our birth, our names, and our very blood does not define us. Our actions are what do. We can overcome so much and rise to become absolutely extraordinary with a little bit of determination, patience, and a dash of help along the way. Nettles exemplifies that to the fullest extent.

She's more than a Black Valryian. She doesn’t have to be Valyrian. She shouldn’t have to be Valyrian.

She’s a survivor. She’s a final girl. She’s a Black low-born girl likely without a drop of dragons blood that tames a wild dragon with patience that killed countless others who had dragons blood. She survived the Dance where others high and low alike fell and perished to become a firewitch to the Burned Men.

Her legacy is immortalized in the history books(and by the Burned Men cause they still worship her) as one of the last(if not the last) dragonrider(s) before Dany all without having any known Valyrian ancestry.

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that there are people who sincerely ship Nettles & Daemon, while bashing Daemyra for being grooming is... baffling. They would therefore find it normal / synonymous with great romance for a 49 year old man to have a romance with a 17 year old girl (I believe that George never positively represented this type of age difference) who does not uneducated and always lived on the street, how to stand, eat, dress, wash, etc. and who Norren would have father/daughter vibes... Like, wtf? That would just seem quite bizarre and unhealthy. Most find it as an excuse that Norren misinterpreted the relationship because he doesn't really know Daemon... No, but lol. Remember, we're talking about people claiming that Daemon groomed Rhaenyra. And these people claim to know the character of Daemon. 😂 Daemon is a gray character, there's no way I'm interpreting him as abusing Nettles, or even having a romantic relationship with her. Literally, what romance?! The things associated with them can be easily interpreted other than in a romantic and or sexual way, between the historical context and even simply the characters and their characterization as well as possible development. It amazes me that so many people are convinced that there is a great love story between these two, when there is not much about them in the end. We have the questionable testimony of Mushroom, the fact that they took baths, in the platonic section, and where Daemon actually teaches Nettles to wash, so well, people are free to necessarily see that as sexual, even if it's a little weird in my opinion... A lot of people argue that no, Nettles was old enough to know how to wash, so it wasn't platonic but uh... We're talking about the girl who lived alone and on the street all his life. How do you realistically want her to have a healthy lifestyle? And the fact that maybe, or not, they shared a bed. But even then, it's not enough to confirm if there was sex between them. And I'm not even talking about that moment when Caraxes breaks the windows when Nettles leaves and everyone sees the proof of an ultimate love when we don't know what Daemon has in mind at that moment. . I always saw Nettles leaving as a breaking point for Daemon after all the shit he's been through since the start of the war. Like, the extra drop that makes it implode. But I could never see them as romantic or sexual.

For me, the Nettles & Daemon relationship was both father/daughter, mentor/student, friends, companions/comrades in war.

They ship Daemon x Nettles because they hate Daemon or/and Rhaenyra for being Targs, having incest and dragons (meanwhile the Westerosi lords have the greenlight to marry first cousins), for being Alicent's enemy (meanwhile Alicent is a misogynist, power hungry person who targeted a 10 year old and never stopped), or for Rhaenyra's nonconformity to gendered codes of conduct within a feudal patriarchy (thinking her a betrayer to her house, a slut, ugly for her weight, refusal to treat her siblings as siblings [Alicent's fault], etc -- misogyny). Meanwhile they do not realize that they are supporting a feudal patriarchal mindset or that GRRM himself writes against patriarchy and bastardry's value through how after Rhaneyra women in Westeros like Jeyne Pool, Alys Karstark, Asha Greyjoy, and Cersei, even Targ women like Maerys, have it much worse than if Rhaenyra had been allowed to rule. I mean, Jon Snow! Have people forgotten that they love him?!

Most do not have knowledge of the nonprivacy medieval people would be used to. Or they do not care because they already believe that Daemon is the groomer and pedophile of the story despite:

a pedophile targets a child with the awareness, mind and knowledge that their target is a child (Daemon approaches Rhaenyra for her position and attractiveness; Rhaenyra was considered an adult by age 16 and inherited the actual right to rule Dragonstone like any other lord with their land and like every other noble girl she would have been married if her father had a mind to it....which he does, seeing as he marries her at 17 to Laenor, who was 20)

many examples of older men marrying younger girls in arranged marriages both in real life medieval history and in Westerosi history: Daenerys Targaryen [15] and Maron Martell [40]: Corlys [37] and Rhaenys [16]; Maegor I Targaryen [13] and Ceryse Hightower [23] --- which shows they know nothing of ASoIaF or how GRRM writes (he usually writes negatively of huge age gaps but he doesn't write negatively of age gaps in general and he always writes the gaps in context of their political circumstances)

so the thought of Daemon possibly not grooming a single girl or going after them for their recognized childhood is inconceivable to them.

Or they believe Mushroom when he says Daemon "taught" Rhaenyra lessons and had sex with her out on the rocks of the Blackwater Bay....meanwhile Mushroom also says that he was there at times with D and R, participating , that he has a huge penis (several times) AND he could never have been at those rocks to witness for himself what D and R were doing....please.

[florisbaratheons]

God, I cannot stand it when people get on their high horse about folks being upset that adaptations defer greatly from their source material. "It's two different canons! You should be happy with what you get! If you're not happy, then go read the book!"

How about no? I saw all of this in the Shadow and Bone fandom, and season 2 suffered from it's great deference from the books and shoving huge arcs from the source material into little 10 second scenes to try and cover everything at once.

Being upset that a character like Rhaenyra is made out to be a goody-two-shoes when she was fucking nuts in the source material is not being a "book purist". It only erases what the story was actually about and takes these characters that are pretty much show inventions and slapping book names on them.

Being upset that Alicent is written as a giant waffler and tying her to Rhaenyra when she should fucking hate her is not being a "book purist". It's called respecting what her arc should be, not this lazy crap that the show is pedaling.

Being upset that Nettles has been cut and her arc combined with Rhaena and likely Addam is not being a "book purist". It's called being upset that the show is writing black people as being interchangable and reducing them down to dust. It also erases the back half of Daemon's story in the war, reduces him to an anime villain when they take all of the rotten choices Rhaenyra made and give them to him.

Fire and Blood wasn't a well written book, but it had a good baseline. But if the HOTD writers cannot even stick with that, then what's the point of calling it an adaptation? Look at how much GOT suffered when they started deferring from the books in seasons 5-6? But course, the show made money, it made GRRM money, so yeah, he's not gonna be upset about it. Of course he's still gonna allow people to adapt his work. That's not the issue here.

Folks are allowed to be upset. Let them be.

[darklinaforever]

Nettles and Daemon. My take on this relationship :

Here's an article, detailing why Nettles and Daemon might (in my opinion) be a platonic relationship. It is essentially a recap of my own thoughts, as well as those of many others, including arabian-bloodstream and theroguedragon3, parts of which I write here come directly from theirs.

I also invite you to see their own article on the Nettles and Daemon relationship:

The reflection on Mysaria is extremely interesting elsewhere in this one.

Fire & Blood, is not meant to be considered historical fact. It is a biased account written by an archmaester 100 years after the fact, based on various diaries which are first, second and third hand biased accounts of the events that took place. The vast majority of these tales were written by Maesters, most of whom had no love for Rhaenyra Targaryen because of her gender, and were in fact pro-Aegon II and pro-Greens in general. The only thing we can be sure of are historical events, not character relationships. Thus, one can easily consider that everything that was said in a story involving relations between "such and such a person" was not necessarily right / true, at least to a certain extent, but which could sufficiently be heard and repeated to make their rounds in the reviews of the time, and taken up in the future accounts of the latter.

Admittedly, there are about four / five "sources" that suggest Daemon and Nettles were lovers, except it must be remembered that these sources are all based on the first one, namely Mushroom's, and the vast majority of accounts were biased against Rhaenyra and wanted to portray her and her camp negatively. Daemon Targaryen, was obviously not spared on this point, because of his gray nature, making him either loved or hated, but also because he was Rhaenyra's major asset during the war. And since the maesters were mostly trying to mount anti-Rhaenyra propaganda, portraying Daemon as an unfaithful husband would somehow reinforce that propaganda. Think about it. Daemon, not only her uncle, her husband, but also and above all her most loyal supporter, her sword and shield, the greatest threat to the Greens, was ultimately (according to the maesters) not so loyal to her, in this what was most sacred in their eyes; the wedding. This would actually suggest that Daemon didn't really love his niece, reinforcing this idea of ​​Rhaenyra being unlovable/appreciative.

And if supposedly "legitimate" sources such as Eustace from the court of Aegon II, and Mushroom from the court of Rhaenyra claimed that Nettles was Daemon's lover, well, they were surely true. Is not it ? After all, it doesn't matter that Eustace was pro-Aegon II and quite openly anti-Rhaenyra Targaryen in his stories. And it doesn't matter that Mushroom (first to have suggested this story of lovers between Nettles and Daemon) has always mostly gendered the stories he told. Surely, their affair must be true! And so other accounts followed suit. After all, when you hear something repeated over and over again, it catches on. However, that doesn't make it true, it just makes it a story told often enough for it to become true. It's even got to the point that singers have also written about them and portrayed them as lovers.

Again, that doesn't make it a reality.

Poets have done it for Daemon and Laena as well, and I doubt the latter married her because of some crush. Daemon probably, as the maesters suggest in the second version of their story, married Laena for more political reasons, (formally tying himself to the powerful Velaryon family) as well as personal reasons, such as a probable desire for children. But Daemon undeniably, in view of the facts, loved her in his own way and respected her. However, trying to portray them as madly in love is, in my opinion, a mistake. We must not forget that during the majority of their marriage, Rhaenyra was part of the equation, and that after the death of Laena, Daemon did not even wait 6 months, period of mourning required, to marry Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra with whom Daemon would have had an affair 9 years earlier, in the year 111. And whether in one story or the other, it should be noted that when they were discovered Rhaenyra and or Daemon would have proposed the wedding. The coincidence is still quite strong, not to mention the parallel of having them marry brothers and sisters respectively. Let's not even talk about the rather suspicious advanced birth of Aegon III, which would strongly suggest that Daemon and Rhaenyra would have started an affair before their marriage, which I remind you, already do not respect the period of mourning for the death of their respective spouses.

All that to say that just because the biased narrative says something relationally doesn't mean it's true. So back to Nettles and his supposed romantic/sexual relationship with Daemon. I think it is worth remembering that despite everything the maesters say about them, Fire & Blood is very clear, nothing that has been said can prove that they were lovers. It's written in black and white in the text, we can only be sure of what they were doing during their day, namely hunting down Aemond and Vaghar for Rhaenyra.

The arguments put forward to support their connection, consist in portraying the character of Daemon negatively, through his desires, which would be naturally carried (as in many men, it is well known at the time and not only) on young girls exerting a strong power of seduction on older men. His supposed affair continues with Mysaria. (Because yes, nothing can prove it either) And because in his youth, Daemon visited brothels where he was well known for deflowering very young girls.

While this does add some credence to the aspect of a possible affair with Nettles, it still cannot be used to discredit the opposite version, where Daemon is portrayed as being crazy about Nettles, not as a lover, but as a man would be of his daughter. I also recall that the book lends some credibility to Laenor's death by Daemon, due to arguments in favor of Mushroom's account, although as with Nettles there is no real proof of the act and that it is also extremely unlikely that Daemon had Laenor killed, especially by Ser Quarl.

Here, the reference to Daemon's actions in his youth is used to portray him as a man who did not rise above his primal nature, deemed deviant, in an effort to bolster Champignon's claim that Daemon did indeed take Nettles as lover. However, we are also told earlier in the book that Daemon, in his youth / when he was twenty, was short-tempered and ready to go to war for his brother's claim to the throne. Compare that to the current Daemon, more experienced in combat, turned into a brilliant strategist, first sniffing dialogue at war with Rhaenyra during the usurpation of the Greens, or knowing/understanding full well that he couldn't engage alone in a fight with Caraxes against Aemond with Vhagar and hope to survive it. Daemon has clearly moved on on this, so why wouldn't he have on the fornication aspect? Especially after having children, and long relationships/marriages with Laena (5 years old) and Rhaenyra (10 years old), who he married when they were both adults by our standards. 22 years old for Laena, and 21 for Rhaenyra. Moreover, note that no lovers were named / listed during his marriage to Laena, or even for his marriage to Rhaenyra, at least before the war unfolded. (Even if it is, yes, quite possible that he has in fact not evolved on this aspect of himself, the reverse seems to me, you will have understood it, much more probable / logical and especially interesting)

The second version offered in Fire & Blood tends more towards the idea that Daemon treated Nettles like a girl. A completely plausible version, since Nettles was precisely the same age as Daemon's daughters, namely 17 years old. Even if it was not surprising, for the time from which the universe of George R. R. Martin is inspired, that men have relations with girls of the same age as their own children, it is all the same possible and not at all inconceivable that the age of Nettles had a different impact on Daemon, and awakened his paternal/mentor side. Let us also remember that during this war, Daemon, in addition to being estranged from his daughters, also lost his stepsons and, he believes, his biological son Viserys II. Not to mention the miscarriage of baby Visenya, which, among other things, marked the beginning of this war. Daemon is therefore in fact in a situation / position, where he could totally and easily fall in love with a child, which Nettles could in fact represent, in particular because she is referred to as a child in the story. even at some point.

However, this version is decried by many fans, many being convinced that Daemon made Nettles his lover, because of particular actions towards the young girl whom they consider to be misinterpreted by the witness, Maester Norren, reporting this aspect paternal of their relationship.

Firstly, there's the fact that Daemon gave Nettles gifts and that would come to mind how he treated Rhaenyra before he supposedly had an affair with her. They are based in particular on the fact that apart from Rhaenyra, Nettles is the only other person mentioned in the story as having received gifts from Daemon. I would like to point out that there are all the same various and varied reasons for offering gifts to someone, and that once again Fire & Blood is a biased history book, not a novel that allow you to see the detailed life of the characters. So you would have me believe, on the pretext that it wasn't explicitly named in the book, that Daemon never gave gifts to Laena or his own daughters? (Do you realize how ridiculous this probability is?)

Daemon's gifts to Nettles and those offered to Rhaenyra, actually (in my opinion) have nothing to do with each other.

Here are Rhaenyra's gifts named, (although it is known that she received others from Daemon during her youth) are: Pearls, silk, books, and a jade diadem believed to have belonged to Empress of Leng.

As for the gifts from Nettles, (the only ones that we know of) they are: An ivory-handled hairbrush, a silver mirror, a coat of rich brown velvet lined with satin, and a pair of boots riding shoes in butter-soft leather.

Rhaenyra's gifts are exuberant, sometimes even unnecessary, - pearls, silk - very much like gifts one would give purely for pleasure, - books - even to woo someone, especially the tiara of jade. It is important to remember that by the time Rhaenyra received these gifts she had actually reached marriageable age. Not only did he give her gifts, but they also did a lot of activities together. As dined with her, so far nothing suspicious you might say, but he also sailed with her, hunted with her; entertained her by making fun of the Greens, characterized as suckers, flattering Queen Alicent and her children. He praised her beauty, declaring her to be the most beautiful woman in all of the Seven Kingdoms and they also began flying together almost daily, racing Syrax against Caraxes to Dragonstone back and forth.

As for Nettles, besides the obvious preciousness of the gifts from Daemon being a prince, notice how practical they seem above all else? From what we know of Nettles, she was a wildling who had nothing, and whom Daemon taught manners, such as how to dress, sit, brush her hair, and wash herself. The gifts he gave her seem to fit perfectly into this framework.

He taught her how to do her hair and dress properly? Brush, mirror, coat and boots.

Things again above all practical things that have undeniably been able to help improve the life of Nettles, which began, let us remember, and has mainly taken place in poverty.

All this gives an effectively paternalistic aspect, of educator, even of mentor to Daemon for Nettles.

Other actions/things described by Maester Norren are: Nettles and Daemon had dinner together every night and had breakfast together every morning. Both also had adjoining rooms.

In itself, these elements are not irrefutable proof that they were lovers. It just shows that Daemon particularly loved Nettles, enough to keep her close to him. Especially if he actually took on a fatherly affection, or took on a mentorship role for her, taking her under his wing as a result. So there's nothing particularly strange or wacky about Daemon keeping her close to him. Not to mention that Nettles was his partner in the active pursuit of Aemond and Vaghar and that they spent their days together, thus bringing them inescapably closer. So it makes just as much sense that they end up having dinner and breakfast together. It's a fairly logical situation for two people who must spend their time with each other, and who end up liking each other.

Now let's talk about the annoying subject, because it's the most controversial in view of our modern mores and personal limits, namely that Daemon would often (so not always) share a seat with Nettles, meaning that he would have taken bath with her. However, before we get fired up, let's keep in mind that these accounts are given by Maester Norren of Daemon treating Nettles like a girl, and they are not transcribed salaciously, so not said by Mushroom, or suggested by Maester Eustace.

And that partly makes sense, especially for the period. Reminder Game of Thrones, season 3, episode 6: "Kissed By Fir.", Jaime and Brienne bathed together, there was nothing salacious there. It was just two people who needed to be cleaned up and so they were sent to the bathroom to get it done. There was nothing sexual in it. Although it was indeed a room filled with other large baths that Jaime could have slipped into, the very idea that a man and a woman could share such a space without anything sexual or improper being involved did exist in some minds.

Some would say that's not a very good example, so I'll say this: Also consider the arduous task of bathing in those days. Raise the tub, heat the water, raise the buckets of water, then empty the tub. It's a lot of work. So sharing a bath isn't always a sexual thing, not in those days, or in ours for that matter.

If that still doesn't convince you, remember that Daemon would have basically taught Nettles, among other things, how to wash properly. That he ended up directly taking baths with her in view of their daily lives, which once again led them to share a great closeness and develop a bond, is nothing particularly surprising or shocking in itself. What's more, it's worth noting that they were never described as bathing together in private. Instead, they were surrounded by maids, testifying that they respectively washed away each other's filth, driving away the stench of dragons harvested from their days spent hunting Aemond. No one in the domain seems to have noticed inappropriate attitudes / gestures between the two companions, or at least it never reached the ears of Maester Norren, which would be quite surprising, you agree, if the two had really been lovers. Also, it is important to remember that not everyone has the same notion of modesty and nudity. Daemon is an unconventional man, we know, and Nettles, a girl who has essentially always lived on the streets, so as a result I doubt the two necessarily associate nudity with sex.

I am now going to present to you a specific example of fantasy, showing two characters, a man and a woman, sharing a bath together in a purely platonic way. These are the characters of Moiraine and Lan in the series "The Wheel of Time". Moiraine is an aes sedai, and Lan is her champion. (sort of, I don't remember the exact term anymore if there is one)

The two share a magical bond said to be stronger than between parents/children, brothers/sisters, husbands/wives, lovers, friends, etc. It is a link beyond all others. So, you surely/probably think that sex (just like me at first) is not involved in such type of relationship. Nevertheless, it is proven in the series that sexual attraction and intercourse can exist between aes sedai and their champions. Proof of this is that Alanna, an aes sedai, practices threesomes with her two champions, Maksim and Ihvon, the latter forming a relationship based on mutual respect and love.

To return to the shared bath of Moiraine and Lan, it should be noted that the latter is bisexual. Indeed, she is currently in love with another aes sedai named Siuan, and in the books Moiraine ends up married to Thom. As for Lan, the latter seems to be straight, and will end up falling in love with a woman named Nynaeve. Lan and Moiraine have no particular excuse for taking a bath together, and given their attitude, it's certainly not the first time they've done it. They could very well have washed one after the other, because Moiraine can literally heat the water, thanks to her magic. The two are also in a hunt/stalk situation, looking for who would be the "dragon", the chosen one of this fantasy story, leading them to spend even more time together than they do. usually in the capital. Clearly, the two bathe together, simply because it's probably more convenient, they don't mind it and their relationship is considered platonic anyway. Besides, if we had to characterize the relationship of Moiraine and Lan, it would be more that of a brother and a sister than anything else. However, see that it did not prevent them from taking baths together during their quest.

Once again, it's important, not everyone has the same type of modesty, or the same notion of nudity. I have always said it, and will always support it, nudity does not equal sex.

So, no, that Nettles and Daemon took baths together, doesn't necessarily mean that they had sex together. Even Fire and Blood says so, nothing that has been named proves this fact, thus leaving doubts.

There are also other elements often discussed / raised by fans, to prove that Daemon and Nettles would be lovers, but which in my opinion still have no real certainty.

Notably Caraxes' Persian scream when Daemon watches Nettles walk away, after the latter sends him away to save her from Rhaenyra's execution order, smashing the windows of Jonquil Tower. Caraxes' roar is a very clear reaction to Daemon's feelings at the time, leaving him stoic, not moving or saying a word. But again, that's not fundamental proof of a romance between them. Doubt is always allowed. If Daemon has developed a deep platonic bond with Nettles, almost coming to regard her as one of his daughters, knowing that he has been away from his own children, (with whom he has always lived) for an extremely long time, he is makes sense that Caraxes would express Daemon's pain so viscerally at seeing her go. Imagine the pain of losing a child again. Because yes, at this point Daemon has lost not only his unborn daughter, his stepsons, and he believes his second biological son, being estranged for a long time from the rest of his children. Again, Daemon found himself in a situation where it was totally and easily possible for him to go crazy for Nettles like a man would for his daughter. This option, posed by the author himself, is not improbable. Also, as Daemon watches Nettles leave, we don't know what's going on in his head, or even what he was thinking precisely at that moment. If it is, it is a mixture of several thoughts and emotions that crossed him and finally made Caraxes crack at this point. It doesn't have to be romantic.

Some argue that it is, since the tower whose windows Caraxes broke is named after "Jonquil", a girl known in the GOT universe to have had a great romance, and who aptly gives her name to the tower. However, the tower itself is not a symbol of love. People were literally locked up there as prisoners. The symbol of love, in relation to Jonquil, is the swimming pool where she and her lover first met. Not the tower then.

I won't go into the so-called parallel between Rhea Royce and Nettles, I've done that before in another post, including Daemon's death, supposedly having the sole reason of wanting suicide from not being able to be with Nettles.

Here are the links to those positions if you're interested:

I love the idea that Nettles and Daemon were able to have a strong platonic relationship, mixing mentor/student, father/daughter, and fellow warriors. A relationship with unconventional sides, which would have caused most people to misinterpret it. Mostly due to a lot of prejudice from people and maesters in general, not helping with the fact that Daemon doesn't give a damn about other people's opinions, of course. (Just like the Daemyra relationship somewhere, which nobody seems to have seen at the time as a romance, although there were no other possibilities given some of their actions) I think that would be a more interesting to see and explore. Even more so that it gives an all the more tragic side to the global story. But again, I'm not denying the possibility that Daemon and Nettles could have been lovers. Simply, it's not the interpretation that I prefer, but it's up to you to like what you want!

I await your opinions on this if you have any to share!

[lovedreamer11]

What kind of love affair are we talking about between Daemon and Nettles?

This man has a type. Think about the main women in Daemon's life. Hot in her youth Mysaria from Lys, Valyrian hot beauty Laena, Realm's Delight - Rhaenyra. Thin, dark-haired with crooked teeth and a scar on her nose, foul-mouthed Nettles, who grew up on the streets, did not know how to wash herself properly and how to use a comb, is somehow very different from the women listed above.

And besides, Daemon is GRRM's favorite Targaryen. He strives to give his favorite character the best. Daemon got an epic death, he was a legend, his children lived, his sons and grandsons were kings. GRRM also gave Daemon the most beautiful women. I would believe in a romance between Daemon and Nettles if Nettles was described as some kind of unrealistically beautiful demigoddess. I feel like if GRRM wanted to give Daemon a young lover, he would have created someone like Shiera Seastar rather than Nettles.

And why does young Nettles need a fifty-year-old married man who has daughters just a couple of years younger than Nettles herself?

I'm not sure that Daemon and Nettles were in a romantic relationship and that what was written in the chronicles was true. People often tried to describe Rhaenyra as worse than she actually was. Rhaenyra was constantly being followed, watching what she eats, who she communicates with, how she dresses, Septon Eustace tried to count how many times Rhaenyra had sex with Laenor, and Mushroom told everyone his sexual fantasies about Rhaenyra and assured that it was true. Rhaenyra was gossiped about and slandered in everything: her appearance, the sexual preferences of her first husband, the circumstances of the birth of her children. During the war, all possible gossip began to be created about her second marriage.

Then no. I definitely don't believe Daemon and Nettles were in love with each other.

[daemonxnettles]

Maester Norren writes that "the prince and his bastard girl" supped together every night, broke their fast together every morning, slept in adjoining bedchambers, that the prince "doted upon the brown girl as a man might dote upon his daughter," instructing her in "common courtesies" and how to dress and sit and brush her hair, that he made gifts to her of "an ivory-handled hairbrush, a silvered looking glass, a cloak of rich brown velvet bordered in satin, a pair of riding boots of leather soft as butter." The prince taught the girl to wash, Norren says, and the maidservants who fetched their bath water said he oft shared a tub with her, "soaping her back or washing the dragon stink from her hair, both of them as naked as their namedays."

Fire & Blood🔥