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lloydfrontera · 6 months

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wait lmao what I didn't know there was such a skip. I'm sorry this is comedy to me. so you're telling me they have this crazy ass dimension-jumping shenanigans with Javier tearing up as he finally finds Lloyd, his best friend, the most important person in his life, while it's a mutual statement for the both of them, and then we get no dialogue. and skip to Lloyd getting shoved into a hetero romance with no build up. sorry I can't believe this is real. this sounds like a joke and I choose to treat is as such. this is the most hilarious ending and the marriage now feels even more out of place hdufiskaoa9o

OH MY FUCKING GOD RIGHT?!?!?!! it is weird isn't it???? i'm not being crazy for feeling like it's a weird ass choice??? i felt like i was going insane!! i swear to god i felt like i was being gaslighted when i read it!!! there was no way that was the ending!! there was no way that ch 401 ended with one of the most romantic and heartfelt scenes i have ever read and then the next chapter just????? did a time skip where none of that was acknowledged and lloyd was just fucking married off to alicia??? completely off-screen if i may add!

i made a post about it before but i simply need to rant all over again oh my god

general warning for spoilers because i'm about to dissect the entire novel through a llojavi lens

AGAIN. SPOILERS WARNING FOR THE ENDING OF TGED.

i literally cannot express how much of a mid fuck it is when you realize that lloyd and javier's relationship is very much Thee Slowburn of tged. like. this is an indisputable fact. even if you don't think there's anything romantic between them, which, holy fuck that's such a fucking reach one must be really be in denial to not see it but whatever, even then you simply cannot argue that their relationship isn't the most important one in the entire story.

javier is the very first person lloyd talks to in the first chapter. he's the first person that welcomes him into his new life. he's the one he has to work the hardest to endear himself to. he's the one he spends the most time with. he's the one that follows him around literally everywhere he goes.

from the very beginning their relationship is given a special attention that few other things get in the plot.

through the entire story we get constant moments of them getting to know each other as people and getting closer as a result. they're constantly in each other's thoughts, which is very natural as they're in each other's company almost 24/7. it is actually hard to find a chapter where they not talking to each other or at the very least together. i cannot emphasize enough how,,, enmeshed and entangled they are with one another as characters. i mean it when i say they are a set do not separate them.

it takes lloyd 222 chapters to even admit to himself that javier is his friend and that he wants to keep him safe not because he's the protagonist of the story or useful to him or anything like that but simply because he cares for him and doesn't want him to die. because, and i quote, 'he thought he'd always be with javier for the rest of his life. just like now, he thought they'd spend all their time together moving forward. and like they always did, they'd be by each other's side during hard times. happy moments. relaxed days. they'd share all these moments as they exchanged insults and corny jokes, growing old as a lazy lord of a fiefdom and his knight. lloyd always thought so. the thought just came naturally, without much effort from him, much like breathing. lloyd believed that javier would always remain by his side as that was how it had been until now.' (ch222) <- actual textual quote. btw. if you even care.

and then. it takes javier 320 chapters, a hundred chapters more, to realize that he cares about lloyd much more than a knight cares about his lord's son. because he, and once again i quote, 'is [his] true master in [his] heart. lloyd was his friend. and now, javier wanted to protect lloyd. he would sincerely protect him with everything he had.' <- this is, if i may add some context, said as javier is fighting against a goddamn angel, literally heaven's will, to protect lloyd. after figuring out lloyd is a fake. that he's been lying to javier for several years about almost everything including who he is. and yet. this is what javier feels for him.

they are the definition of a slowburn. it takes them this long to even admit they are friends. and this is with us getting to see them together almost every chapter of the way. we get to see every step of the way. we see their relationship develop with all manner of detail.

and then. when you think you cannot get even more dramatic about them. guess what the major conflict of the plot is. guess fucking what the last obstacle for the story to get a happy ending is.

let me set the scene for you:

lloyd has just finished the jewel of truth, the artifact that will get him the answer he seeks on how to stop the restoration of fate, how he can stop destiny from making the original events of the novel come true and destroy everything he has worked and kill everyone he loves. he has javier at his side, who rushed to join him underwater to make sure he was safe and sound while using it, and he can't help but fondly think how lucky he is to have javier, who is loyal and true and has never abandoned him.

a quote of lloyd's thoughts in this scene:

That’s why, you bastard. I’m going to take care of you until the very end. Once I, your wise and older friend, solve the restoration of destiny problem, you’re going to enjoy the rest of your life by my side in peace. [...] He smiled at Javier and thought to himself. You’re my only friend, Javier. I couldn’t have overcome all the obstacles in front of me without your help. So, my trustworthy and reliable comrade, stick with me until I become a lazy lord and you become my personal guard. I hope we will be able to grow old together… -ch 327

as you can see. he's once again planning on spending the rest of his life with javier. canonically. not even an interpretation this is straight up textual i cannot emphasize enough

and then. the jewel of truth gives him the answer. how to stop the restoration of fate. it's very easy. very simple solution in fact.

either lloyd or javier have to die or otherwise vanish from existence.

that's it. there can only be one protagonist in the world and because of everything lloyd has done he's now being acknowledged by fate as the protagonist of the story along with javier. which cannot stand.

so that's the only thing stopping lloyd from getting his happy ending. he just,,, has to either kill his best friend or kill himself.

let me rephrase this from a narrative perspective: the major conflict of the story is now lloyd facing either the choice of letting everything he's achieved and everyone he loves be destroyed. losing his best friend, the person he cares the most about and has been developing an extremely close relationship through the entire plot. or dying himself.

lloyd of course then spends the rest of the plot trying to find a way to avoid having to die. that's literally what the rest of the novel is about. lloyd trying by all means possible seeking a way to not having to die. because at no point, does he ever consider letting javier die in his place even an option. he doesn't want to die of course, but he never saw javier sacrificing himself as the solution to that problem.

the entire conflict of the last part of the novel is lloyd finding a way for him and javier to be able to remain together without either of them having to sacrifice their lives for the other.

he doesn't succeed.

they end up in a battle down in hell where both of them try to give for one another leading to this absolutely delightful parallel

so fucking tasty oh my god i still go crazy when i see this set of illustrations actually

lloyd wins btw. he gets to sacrifice his life for javier. to javier's absolute heartbreak.

but lloyd doesn't die. he does end up stuck in korea tho, a place he would've rather died than go back to, so he has that going on for him. he's back in his goshiwon, absolutely heartbroken and without knowing what to do.

and then we end up with that scene. javier at his doorstep, having crossed dimensions, tearing up as he sees him and tells him how much he's missed him, looking at him with this face:

now. let's pause here. let's take a moment. take in everything i've just explained. everything that has happened to get to this point.

be honest with me. what would you say is the most natural way the story can progress from here.

take into account all that i have recounted and that i skipped so many other things of the same nature so we wouldn't be here all day.

what do you as a reader would expect to happen next

well, i'll tell you:

cut to black we're now an unspecified amount of time later lloyd has already had all the important conversations we've been waiting to see the entire time off screen and is now preparing himself for his wedding to alicia that we will also not get to see by the way

and you know what the funniest thing is. you know what is the cherry on top.

fucking guess who's the last person we see him talk with.

guess who's the person he ends the novel sharing a smile with.

yeah. Yeah.

i really don't know what else to say. i don't know how else to explain how insane this feels. how incredibly dissonant it comes across. i don't want to use the worse gaslighting like this but it's the closest word i can find to describe what it feels like. i feel like i'm being told something is happening when i can see with my own eyes it is not. or rather that i'm seeing something happen and i'm being told that no it is not and that i'm making it up.

i don't know what bk moon was going for. i really don't. especially when this is what he has to say about chapter 401 aka the chapter with javier coming to find lloyd in korea

clearly he feels very strongly about this scene too. it's the one he's been wanting to show the most, he must have analyzed it from every angle possible, must have put special care to get across what he wanted to convey with it.

so why does it feel like the last true chapter of the novel is meant to,,, undercut the feeling of it?? it almost feels as if the last chapter is telling us 'yeah yeah those two are extremely devoted to each other and would and have given their lives for one another and plan on growing old at each other's sides but don't worry :) it's nothing more than them being pals :) just two guys being really good friends :) see, lloyd is even getting married to a woman that's his real happy ending he's not gay or anything :)'

and this is not me saying that two friends cannot be devoted to each other. absolutely not of course friends can love each other platonically and that be more than enough to justify their devotion to one another.

but. it feels weird when the entire novel is dedicated to building up the relationship between lloyd and javier, taking so much time to make us really feel like their relationship is growing at a realistic pace, take almost 3/4 of the novel to even make them come to terms with how much they care for one another, spend actual years following their development,,, and then make lloyd just marry someone else. someone the novel really didn't spend enough time with to justify him developing feels for her.

this is not a diss against alicia i have nothing against her i just don't... buy that lloyd developed romantic feelings for her. much less that he acted on them that easily.

this is a man who took 222 chapters and several years in-universe to even accept that javier, the person he spent all day with, with whom he spoke almost every single day, who he had risked his life for and had been saved by several times at that point, was even his friend.

and now i'm expected to believe he's in love with someone else who, by comparison, he meets a couple of times and spends a little amount of time with.

well. i don't! it's not in character, it wasn't properly built up in the text and truthfully they don't have enough chemistry to make up for it.

i don't know what happened there. i don't know why bk moon decided to add a romance when the novel didn't need it. i don't know why he chose to make it happen between two characters that didn't have a relationship as deep as the one he spent the entire novel building up and promoting as the most important one. which may i add was between his two protagonists. y'know. the ones the novel is supposed to be centered around.

i don't know. i don't know what happened. i don't know if it was censorship, last minute panic, fear of opposition or rejection or actual obliviousness to what he had written looked like, i simply do not know.

i really hope it wasn't homophobia tho that would absolutely suck lmao

but uh. yeah. i do think the ending is very funny when you put it like that askhdsjkfds

#hey i got an ask #Anonymous #tged #the greatest estate developer #tged spoilers #lloyd frontera #llojavi #javier asrahan #long post #i don't what happened i started typing and suddenly all of this came out of me #i was possessed #most of what i said here i have said before but it's now all in one post #and i have So Much left to say about this topic but i really cannot make this post longer i am so embarrassed already aksjdhk #i feel a little hollow i need to shitpost to get back to normal oh my god #this is. why it takes me so long to answer asks btw. i literally cannot shut up.#i apologize but i cannot promise to change

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boyfridged · 1 year

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You may have already mentioned this in some of your other metas, and I just missed it, so please ignore this if it's redundant.

Do you think Bruce is projecting onto Jason by pushing him as a Robin? Obviously, Jason wanted to be Robin and was excited about it, and Bruce let Jason do other things, but (if I'm not mistaken) before Tim came into play, solidifying the whole Batman needs a Robin/support to keep him upright, Bruce and Dick becoming Batman and Robin, in the beginning, was also sort of a coping mechanism.

I think there are a few examples of Bruce enabling this kind of mindset. Like in Gotham Knights #43–44 (sorry), every time Barbara brings up Jason's inner turmoil, Bruce refocuses on his ability as a Robin; similarly, when Jason finds out about Two-Face and his dad, he is hurt, and Bruce acknowledges that but then does the same thing, zeroing in on reassuring Jason that he made a mistake but is still a good Robin.

Like, Jason got it from Bruce, but he unintentionally encouraged that kind of thinking.

oh, i definitely think that bruce is projecting on jason and that it profoundly affected jay. and, while every single one of your observations is apt, i would add that what truly made it so tragic is that he projected his own worst traits on jason while being blind to the fact that jay already shared his best qualities.

tldr: bruce projects himself on jason in terms of grief (saying that jason needs vigilantism to work his grief through) and sees his own worst traits in jason (anger) but doesn't see his own best traits in jay (compassion, love, and sensitivity). ironically, jason does end up developing all of the (projected) worst characteristics of bruce (obsessiveness, and relentlessness in pursuit of the respective perceived idea of justice). this happens even though they were barely present in his early storylines, and only ever manifested when jason was scared or lost. later, they truly came to be because of his trauma relating to vigilantism.

and the long, long version, coming with panels and quotes: under the cut.

first i want to say that the following analysis focuses very specifically on bruce's mistakes, but i don't view the overall of jay's upbringing by bruce solely in these terms. from text it is also clear that bruce deeply loves and cares about jay, and that jay enjoys being robin. now that this is clear, let's get to particularities, and start with jay's origin story.

i truly never stop thinking about the significance of bruce meeting jay in the crime alley, the place of his parents' death. there's a lot to be said about it, but here the focus is, of course, on the fact that he sees a little boy, very much similar to himself, angry and hurt, in the same scenery that brought him so much grief. and jay in some ways does appear to be a mirror of bruce's own agonies, as well as a mirror of his own inclination for seeking justice; and somehow, bruce fixates on the first one, while almost completely dismissing the latter.

bruce looks at him and assumes that the remedy to jason's pain and anger is being robin; and he doesn't stop to think about it. (it has to be noted that there's also classism at play, classism that is mostly a result of writers' own beliefs – collins did state in a couple of interviews that that the motivation behind jason's background was to make his introduction into vigilantism seem less offensive, as jason has already been exposed to crime...)

i think, in this context, it's interesting to look at the two-face storyline even closer, and from the start too. in the beginning, bruce talks of jason's 'street' roots and assumes jay would go "down the same criminal road that took his father [willis] to an early death." he also talks of jason making a lot of progress. later, in batman #411, after jason learns that willis has been killed by two-face, bruce comments that jay "has never been like this...listless...almost pouting--"

this all, along with jay's cheerful and diligent behaviour from the previous issue builds an interesting picture for us: because we essentially learn that jay has been overall an unproblematic child. bruce, of course, attributes this "progress" to the training. however, for anyone else, the logical conclusion would be that jay's quick adjustment was simply a matter of finding himself in a safe and stable environment and receiving continuous support and attention from a parental figure. i find it rather questionable that jason's personality softened down because he had something to punch in the cave–– the more intuitive explanation is of course that he was angry and quick to fight when they first met because he couldn't afford anything else and because he was scared. but months later, in a loving home, he can allow himself to drop his guard; and his cocky attitude disappears until much later.

so the rather unsettling picture that we derive is that bruce is training jay to become a vigilante in order to "channel" his (nonvisible at this point) anger into something useful and just. and he clearly links this to his own trauma in batman #416 (that’s already starlin btw), in his conversation with dick, explaining why he took jay in: “he’s so full of anger and frustration… he reminds me of myself, just after my parents were killed.” bruce also mentions that soon after their first meeting, jason helped him and "handled himself well" in the fight, but he doesn't mention that jay has ran away from a crime "school" and intended to stop injustice on his own only because he was ignored.

the theme of bruce comparing jay to himself appears again in detective comics #574 (barr), where it is approached with a much more... critical look, thanks to leslie's presence and her skepticism of bruce's actions. after jason has suffered nearly fatal injuries at the hand of the mad hatter, bruce reminisces on his own trauma and motives. he tells leslie: "i didn't choose jason for my work. he was chosen by it...as i was chosen." leslie replies: "stop that! (...) you do this for yourself... you're still that little boy (...)" then, the conversation steers to the familiar ground and the topic of anger. in bruce's words, again: “i wanted to give jason an outlet for his rage…wanted him to expunge his anger and get on with his life…” and finishes "and instead, i may have killed him."

the recognition that bruce's projection on jason and involving him with his work might have fatal consequences is, as always, fast forgotten once jay wakes up and proclaims that he wants to continue his work as robin.

but to circle back, i think there's something else worth our attention, something deeply ironic, that is showcased in that issue: that bruce has no evidence for jay's "rage." when leslie talks of bruce's past, she recalls his tendencies to get into brutal fights at perceived injustice as early as in school; when bruce talks of jason, two pictures that are juxtaposed, are that of jason fighting as robin and jason... smiling, playing baseball.

so, in the early days of jason's training and work in the field, we see bruce talking of jason's anger a lot; but we barely see it.

that being said, jay is angry sometimes– and i think your observation about how bruce deals with it is incredibly interesting and accurate.

we first see jay truly and devastatingly angry in the two-face storyline. bruce focuses on jay's reaction as robin, which is, in fact, aggressive. but something that he barely addresses is that jason's first reaction is sleeping all day, and not beating anyone to a pulp; in fact, this vengeful instinct seems to arise only when he is put right in front of two-face. and his third instinct, once the rage (very quickly) dies down after the altercation with two-face, is crying, because bruce hid the truth about willis' death from him. jay, while crying, asks bruce: "you have taken me out into combat-- but you spare me this?" in response, bruce lectures jason about how grief inspires revenge, which is, again, deeply ironic, given that jay seeking out revenge seemed to be prompted and enabled solely by the role of robin. moreover, his question suggests that at this point he saw grief ("you spare me this") and fighting as two different things.

the final is, as you said, bruce focusing on making it into a lesson on vigilantism, or, in his own words, "tempering revenge into justice." personally, i think in this way bruce directs jason to bring his grief into the field as a powering force, something that he didn't necessarily have an own incentive to do. the flash of compartmentalisation between his ordinary life and being a sidekick that jay has shown by questioning bruce's decision is lost. emotions are now a robin thing, and they have an (informal) protocol, a moral code. and when jay is confronted with an emotionally exhausting case next – the garzonas case, i believe that the focus on "tempering revenge into justice" is exactly the problem– we don't see jay crying, we see him frantic about finding the solution. this, right there, is bruce's obsessiveness, that in my opinion, was developed in jay specifically as a result of how his engagement with vigilantism combines with his deep sensitivity.

and, needless to say, his sensitivity is all the same as that of bruce – they both can't stand looking at other people hurting, they both wear their hearts on their sleeve, caring way too much – the thing is, bruce never quite acknowledges how they are similar in this matter. instead, he focuses on his sparse bursts of anger, wanting to bring jason closure in his grief the only way he knows it – in a fight for a better world. so, as you said, he focuses on jason's ability as robin.

which just doesn't work for jason. at all. we know it from how his robin run comes to an end: in the first issue of a death in the family (batman #426) alfred informs: “i’ve come upon him, several times, looking at that battered old photograph of his mother and father, crying.” to that, bruce contends: “in other words, i may have started jason as robin before he had a chance to come to grips with his parents deaths.” he also tells jay that the field is not a place for someone who is hurting; a message that is the opposite of what he's been saying for years now, and something that i imagine was difficult for bruce to conceptualise, because then he would have to question his own unhealthy tendencies. it's a bit late to come to this realisation; bruce's self-projection that caused him to worry so much about jay's anger has already turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy that will fully manifest itself in utrh, when jason does the only thing he was taught to do with grief: try to channel it into justice.

#AHHH this took me so long for no reason at all. so sorry anon <3 #anyway. i'm obsessed with your observation regarding bruce's focus on robin in the two-face storyline #i've already briefly considered it but you made me go back and reread it #and i just stared at these panels of jason in bed all day for like good 5 minutes thinking. jesus christ. jesus christ #“you spare me *this*?” <- this line is making me feel SICK TO MY STOMACH.#so maybe bruce is right when he says that he made jason like this in tfz.#and jay is of course even more right when he says that he didn't make him. he raised him #also don't apologise for bringing in gotham knights #i actually talked about it some before because it is a very good illustration of bruce projecting on jay #<- i didn't include it here bc my post was getting insanely long.#anyway back on the topic. i think it's so deeply sad that jay genuinely has no idea #that this is what bruce thinks #i think he would be DEVASTATED if he knew the way bruce fixated on the idea of his anger #hm. normal now.#thank you so much for this ask. you can tell i was delighted to answer it <3 #i actually already had a draft about it when you sent it... but i'm sooo slow with editing my word vomit #outbox #jay.zip #jay.txt #dc #jason todd #core texts

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