#so is edwin but this is about charles' reaction to edwin's confession

[kermit-coded]

the thing about charles that gets me is how kind he is. even with all his anger, he always reaches out first with kindness. him comforting the soldier ghost. him offering crystal a place to stay. him stopping and checking on the librarian on the stairs in hell. his reaction to edwin's confession. he is a character defined not by the pain he's experienced, but the kindness he extends to others. he has every reason to be bitter and vengeful, but instead he is full of love and compassion. i love him so much.

[asidian]

I've seen a lot of really excellent analysis on Charles' reaction to Edwin's confession, but there's a huge aspect that I haven't seen talked about at all yet. And that is, namely:

Charles Rowland is a people-pleaser.

Doesn't seem like there's a connection there, does it? Have a seat, my friends. Let me break this down.

The show lays the groundwork for this aspect of Charles' personality early. It's one of the very first things we learn about him, in fact. He's kind and agreeable and helpful, and he's always, always smiling. When Crystal insults him, he laughs it off. When Crystal and Edwin fight, he scrambles to diffuse the situation. He calls himself "a good sort of a chap," and it's important to him that he is.

In episode 3, we find out why. At home, love was always conditional for him. He spent his entire life trying to please his father, and he confesses to Crystal that no matter how nice he was, or how good at sports, it was never enough. That's how Charles sees the world. If he can make people happy, he might actually be good enough for them to love him.

Not only didn't he earn his father's affection, he didn't even manage, in his own eyes, to clear the low bar of being good enough to earn the privilege of not being hurt. And his mother, he says, was "quiet." From the flashback we see, she never stepped in for him or defended him. However hard he was trying, it wasn't enough to get her to intervene on his behalf.

So who else does he have? His "friends"? The ones who literally murder him when he steps in to stop them from doing a terrible thing? The act he put on wasn't enough to win them over in the end, either. However friendly he was, however personable, they turned on him and left him for dead.

Then he meets Edwin.

And when he meets Edwin, he's at his absolute lowest. He's not smiling and putting on a show, for once. He's in a corner of an attic cowering while he slowly freezes to death. But here comes Edwin, offering him kindness, and company, and comfort.

All these things that Charles has spent his whole life chasing, trying to be good enough to earn? Edwin just gives them to him.

Of course he stays with this boy. Edwin is there when he's lost in the dark, shining a light to guide the way. Edwin has seen him unsmiling and afraid, not a shred of his usual act in place, and Edwin has offered him kindness anyway.

So they begin their time together. And what are the things Charles will pick up on almost immediately?

Edwin says right away that he's spent ages in hell. He's plainly had an awful time. He doesn't know how to handle people anymore, but Charles, he knows how to be amiable, how to smile, how to offer levity when things get grim.

So he does. He falls back into what he thinks Edwin needs, the way he always tried to be what his father wanted to see. In the very first episode, he tells Crystal, "I try to be extra happy for all of us, don't I? And I do a pretty good job."

He doesn't ever discuss his own trauma because these boys are terrible at communication, but more than that. He doesn't ever bring it up because he's busy being the support he thinks Edwin needs.

And importantly, Charles doesn't have the self-reflection skills to realize that's what he's doing. Crystal clocks him with shocking accuracy, three episodes in. "He's been hiding it from you," she tells Edwin. "Probably been hiding it from himself." She's spot-on here: when Charles doesn't want to examine his own emotions, or can't face them, he shoves them down under a smile and he carries on pretending.

But that's not the only thing Charles will have picked up on from Edwin.

It's blindingly obvious that Edwin is bad at people. He's terribly repressed. He's from a culture in which emotional honesty and physical affection were not valued or encouraged. But more than any of that, Edwin has his sexual awakening during the events of the show. Before then, he is absolutely clueless about his own wants.

So we have a situation where a consummate people-pleaser who has spent his entire life learning that he has to earn affection finds his way into a friendship with the first person who ever saw him with his mask down and gave him kindness anyway.

Of course he stays with this boy. Of course he wants to keep this.

And what's the best way Charles knows to win someone over? Well, by being what he thinks they want.

So, out come the smiles, for Edwin's sake as much as his own. But more importantly, out comes whatever Charles thinks he needs to perform, in order to keep what is the single most important relationship in his entire life and afterlife.

At this point, Edwin has shown zero romantic or sexual interest, not just in Charles, but in anyone at all. He doesn't especially seem inclined to dating, or to romance, or even to physical affection.

So Charles takes his cues from Edwin, and the cues are very firmly, for thirty years: this boy doesn't have a glimmer of interest in him, not that way.

Fast-forward to the events of the show. Fast-forward to a staircase in hell, where they are being chased by a literal demon. Suddenly his best mate, who he has spent thirty years with, who is his most important person in the world, is saying that he's in love with him.

Of course he needs a minute. Of course he has to sort that through. Any feelings he has for Edwin are things that he has spent literal decades firmly ignoring in the scramble to try and earn affection by being what he thinks Edwin needs him to be.

Because Charles is a people-pleaser at heart. And he may be dreadful at self-reflection, but he is aces at hiding things from himself.

[starlightseraph]

finished dead boy detectives!!! (spoilers ahead!)

quick disclaimer: i haven’t gotten around to the comics yet but i’ve been very interested since the sandman came out and i do plan on reading them eventually lol.

- edwin is my new blorbo cutie and i too would go to hell for him. also, his style is immaculate, exactly how i want to dress all the time.

- i am SO sad about niko. but i’m glad that it seems like she’s not totally gone? i hope she’s not an antagonist in the next series (the ending was a touch ominous), but i’ll honestly be happy either way. it’s so rare to find good western-japanese characters. it made me incredibly happy when she switched into a japanese accent when saying “osaka” because it’s something i recognise in my family and in me. i know people from lots of different backgrounds do that with words from their own languages, but i’d never seen a japanese character do it before so i was very tickled.

- charles. man. please fall in love with edwin. how tf are you quite literally dragging him out of hell and he confesses to you and you look him in the eyes and say that you love him but you’re not in love with him. i mean that’s the best possible way he could’ve gone about it, but if i were edwin i might just have gone back down to the doll face spider thing.

- i hope that crystal’s past doesn’t land her in jail or anything. i really like her dynamic with the others but i’m not sold on her and charles romantically, mostly because edwin is so fucking sweet and i don’t want his heart to be broken. he’ll be happy if charles is happy, but i cannot stand see him get hurt even the tiniest bit.

- jenny is amazing. she’s literally me fr. also i love how she just hands people cleavers.

- i found the night nurse’s breakdown when she was in angie’s stomach very relatable. i feel like that a lot lmao. and i love her accent. i will go to bat for my own weird ass culchie irish/valley girl hybrid, but if had to pick another accent…

- i need a wise and eternal south asian man to talk me down from the ledge. it’s almost finals week and a ring from kashina would be a big help.

- tragic mick (top tier wordplay name) is a sweetheart and i hope he gets to be a walrus again eventually. my first reaction when i saw the cat king was “oh my god, it’s the piss kink guy from You!” but that aside, he was ok in the end. so was monty. i hope the night nurse can help crystal drag david the demon back down to hell.

[alexwilltellyouthings]

Dead Boy Detectives was really smooth with how they decided to keep us hanging with Edwin/Charles. We have hints, but no real way of knowing how their relationship will move forward and that feels very deliberate.

'Cause I mean. We see how Edwin is acting after realizing his feelings. He's not all that subtle (for us) in episode 6. He changes clothes, checks Charles out, lingers on a touch on his shoulder, etc. It's clear he changed.

But then, after hell and the confession, we have just TWO scenes focused on them, and they are somehwat hard to decipher, especially when it comes to Charles' reactions. The scenes are pretty opposite.

First, the roof right after hell. They are standing very apart from each other (not usual at all), each looking away, and there's an awkwardness going on when they do make eye contact. It's cute, but unlike anything we've seen from them before, and it indicates a shift in the dynamic that neither of them seems quite ready to face.

Then Charles reassures Edwin that they're good, they smile, Crystal shows up and goes straight to lean against Charles, not even thinking about it, while Edwin is still at the other side. It feels very interesting to me that they chose to go with this unbalance of proximity. It looks... hurtful, to Edwin at least.

Then there's Crystal with her memories, saying goodbye, Esther, the whole shebang, and the next time we see the boys by themselves is at the very end. Which was also a very interesting choice in proximity, as we all know. But this time, the other way around — they are closer than ever.

Also I think it's worth noting that, before this, when they are about to leave Port Townsend, both Charles and Edwin have a little moment with their respective love interests. Charles and Crystal act kinda shy at each other in Niko's room, while Edwin talks to the Cat King. Again, it feels deliberate.

So are there going to be other awkward moments? Is Edwin going to be fine with the craving he now clearly has? Is Charles going to act confident or bashful? And obviously there's room for the Cat King and Crystal to still mean something romantic and/or sexual to them, in one way or the other. Basically, the evidence can point to any direction. And as much of a Payneland truther I am, I have to admit it can also point to a whole different development. The show made sure to leave all doors open, including the ones leading to heartbreak.

It makes me anxious, and it's also lowkey brilliant.

[tragedy-machine]

Dbd payneland idea #837282:

Someone offers Edwin a magic potion that erases unwanted romantic feelings within a week, and the only antidote is a true love's kiss before the deadline (or a kiss from the object of one's affection).

Edwin takes it and happily announces to Charles that in a week's time he'll be rid of his romantic feelings for him, only his platonic love for Charles remaining, so that the younger ghost doesn't have to worry about Edwin's confession in hell anymore.

And Charles's first reaction is horror. The idea of Edwin no longer loving him for some reason seems terrifying and just plain awful to him, even after he's reassured that the platonic one will remain intact. He wants to respect his friend's choice and for Edwin to be happy and free of the burden that his feelings for Charles apparently were.

But Charles just can't ignore how the whole situation makes him feel as cold as he was on the day of his death, so he starts to question himself. Does it mean he also has romantic feelings for Edwin or is he just scared that it might change how Edwin sees him? Is there a chance for them? So he takes it upon himself to spend the week analyzing his emotions and reflecting on their time together to figure out what he truly wants.

Needless to say, he figures it out on day 7. He absolutely is in love with Edwin. He has to rush to spill his feelings to the other boy before the time is up, has to convince Edwin he really means it, he's absolutely sure, so could Edwin please just kiss him already?!

[that-ineffable-devil]

Long post incoming, but I've been on and off it for days so you're gonna see it.

On Charles and Love

I think there's a lot more to Charles' reaction to Edwin's confession than what we may first assume.

Charles loves harder than anyone, but I don't think he even knows what it means or feels like to be IN love--or to be loved back. This isn't a dig at Edwin, so don't @ me. This has to do with Charles' past.

When Edwin first confesses on the steps of Hell, Charles doesn't even hesitate with his response: "Great, love you too, can we go now?" He does love Edwin, one way or another. He hasn't needed to examine that love any further. He doesn't think Edwin could mean it that way, because Edwin probably has never given any indication of feeling that for anyone. Perhaps he didn't think Edwin capable of love in that way. Perhaps it's his own repressed sexuality. Perhaps it's the feeling that he is inherently unlovable. Perhaps it's a combination of things.

On Edwin's and Charles' Repression

Look, Edwin is clearly autistic and heavily emotionally repressed--he's British, from 1916, and male. That's the perfect storm of emotional repression. But he clearly feels and feels deeply--he just doesn't always let on about it. (Which is such a nice thing to see for autistic representation, the "unfeeling alien" trope ain't it.)

And even though they've been together for 30 years, they clearly do not talk about deep emotions much, because it makes Edwin uncomfortable and Charles probably wouldn't manage to get much out before cracking a joke instead--it's his defense mechanism.

As for his own repression, Charles grew up in the 80s as a biracial kid with an abusive father. He was also at least questionably queer while alive: he was part of an alt crowd, wore eyeliner, and wore a single dangly earring. Now that doesn't mean for certain he's queer or questioning, but it IS a pretty common code in media and storytelling. And I imagine no small part of his father's excuses for abusing Charles had to do with "beating the queer out of him." Of COURSE that led to repression--how could it not?

On Feeling Unlovable

And the feeling that he's inherently unlovable? Does he really feel that way? I think so.

He wants it. He wants to be loved so badly. And because of that, he tries so hard. He tries to stay light and happy and kind, even when he's suffering underneath--he has his own flavor of emotional repression. Because if he can't be loved, he can at least be liked.

And he doesn't just want people to like him, he needs them to like him, because he needs to know he's likable. Because there's safety in being likable. There's safety in being funny and friendly and "a good sort of chap." It's proof he's not the monster his father was--the monsters his friends were. It's his shield. The shield he uses to protect himself from the world, yes, but also to protect the world from him. Or at least, who he thinks he is, deep down.

It's also, in his mind, his only chance at being loved. His only chance at staying loved. Because love is earned. Because love is the reward for good behavior. At least, that's how it was as a kid, right? And that's all he knows. He died before he could experience any other kind of love--besides the love between himself and Edwin, which is its own complicated matter.

The other difficult aspect of growing up in a household where love and affection were weaponized and where violence is an acceptable reaction to anger, is how it radically alters your perception of love and family.

You crave the love and validation you never received, but you also fear it and don't believe it's real when it comes without strings.

You struggle to identify love in healthy relationships because if it doesn't hurt, then is it really love?

And even though you crave it more than anything, you're afraid of it. You're afraid for things to get real, because real love--or your understanding of it--is dangerous.

Because love is a weapon and you can't bear for anyone to use it against you again.

Hurt People Hurt People...Sometimes

Trauma manifests differently in each person. There are some commonalities, but it's never exactly the same. I know the saying is "hurt people hurt people" and that's not entirely wrong. But sometimes, hurt people heal people--or at least try to. Charles is in the second group.

Charles never, ever wants anyone to feel the kind of love he knew while he was alive. So he paradoxically loves openly while remaining guarded. His loyalty and devotion are unmatched. He went to Hell for Edwin. But he also never told Edwin the truth about his father until essentially forced to. Because that involves vulnerability. It involves, in his eyes, weakness. And what did vulnerability and "weakness" get him in life? Well...dead.

But he craves reciprocation. He needs to feel like he can be vulnerable, safely. I don't think that Edwin has done anything to make him feel unsafe, but being that they're both emotionally surpressed boys killed by other boys for perceived weaknesses at 16 and the lack of a ghost therapist...it's not all that surprising they haven't dealt with their issues in 30 years.

I think this is why he latches onto Crystal so quickly and easily. Firstly, she's alive: he can at least pretend to ignore his own death for a bit. Secondly, she's his age (sort of) and can see him, which is an uncommon experience at best. Thirdly, again--she's alive, so it can never last--never be real. Either she'll age beyond him, or she'll die and likely be taken to her afterlife. Which he'll happily ignore for the first two reasons.

On Types of Love

I won't get too into this, because I'm in no way an expert in the wide variety of emotions attributed to love. But I will say this: Charles died at 16.

If we set aside the possibility of him being aromantic for now (which he absolutely could be), he may never have had the chance to fall in love while he was alive. If he could even recognize it for what it was. I mean, I'm in my 30s, been married and divorced twice, and I'm still not sure I've ever been in love. At 16, you're drowning in hormones and it can be hard to decipher feelings.

On Arrested Development

If you think about it, his death and subsequent ghostly afterlife are a supernatural version of the arrested development a lot of child abuse survivors experience. But his development arrested literally--he literally CAN'T grow up. At least, not physically.

He may have had 30 years to address his issues, but why would he have thought to? He doesn't have the same responsibilities or needs as a living adult. He's constantly on the job or on the run from Death, he's living with Emotional Repression the Person (my beloved), and frankly...it hurts to examine those problems. How many adults are actively avoiding their own issues?

On the Confession

Edwin, with the most heartwrenching tone of voice since David "I would like to spend" Tennant, makes clear that he's IN love with Charles. And for a moment Charles looks like he's been walloped in the gut with an iron bar, trying to process. But then the trauma-brain kicks in.

He finds the first "logical" explanation to someone (Edwin) telling him they love him: it's a literary reference, and Edwin is...maybe not "messing" with him, but maybe being extra dramatic about this? It can't be real.

But then Edwin gets upset--he's serious about this. And Charles sort of...short-circuits. He can't process this right now, not when they're running for their afterlives. Not when the Night Mother is waiting to split them up. Not when he's barely even begun to process his trauma. So he does everything he can to make sure Edwin knows that, no matter what, he loves him. Maybe not in the same way, but with the same depth.

Because they'll have time. They'll have all the time in the world to figure out what this means. Because they certainly don't right now, and everything Edwin is saying flies directly in the face of every opinion Charles has ever held about himself.

And what the hell is he supposed to do with that?

[shaylogic]

Messy Masterpost: I don't have the words so here's a mess of links and ideas

@captainfantasticalright's Dead Boy Detectives: a breakdown of Dante's hell. This post is a masterpiece of understanding how the Hell/afterlife dynamics work in Sandman Universe and DBDA, and it's sent my mind buzzing like crazy

My post about Simon's book

Not just any book

Theory about Simon's brother/father? Being a part of Burgess' Cult ("Order of Ancient Mysteries")

Thank you @niko-sasaki-dbd

Ba'al ==> Sa'al

Seems like Simon may have gotten a demon-summoning book that worked from his brother who may have been involved on Burgess' cult from Sandman. He died with book in hand, and that's the one he's tearing apart on repeat in Hell. Tumblr user listed above identified what the book might be, based off the image.

This interview at 12:52 George Rexstrew answering that Edwin's favorite thing about Charles is his unconditional love and acceptance of him.

Post about Charles bearing his soul to the Night Nurse like Orpheus played music to Cerberus

Interviewer talking about "straight friend" Charles "rejecting" gay Edwin, only for George, Jayden, Beth, and Steve to stiffen up slightly. Asking about how Charles didn't have a gay panic reaction to Edwin's confession. This interviewer is actually gay and interviewed on a gay network later, which threw me after this question.

=>If Charles had really gay panic rejected Edwin, it really would have ended like Eurydice, thrust back to the pit of Hell to wallow in the internalized homophobia, rather than being released with the support and healthy love of Charles.

Actors have reiterated multiple times that the case is not closed on Edwin and Charles' romance, they're just getting started and figuring it out in the midst of all the chaos.

People are stuck in Hell because they believe they belong there but Edwin gets out the second time because Charles KNOWS he doesn't belong there! And reminds Edwin of this when he's getting pulled under in it all

Charles went back to his red polo after the confession and escaping Hell with @nerdytacollama's excellent addition on episode 7 specifically!!

Edwin's whole arc was about accepting loving and being loved and his attraction to men, and his love of his best friend, specifically

Steve Yockey saying the confession NEEDED to happen on the stairs out of Hell. One reason being that Edwin may have been too afraid to go through with it after, another being that he could get dragged away forever at any second and it could be his last chance.

[above article pic quote from this]

But also based on the Hell worldbuilding of the Sandman Universe where people only go to hell if they believe in it and believe they deserve to be there > Edwin believing his want for intimacy at all letalone with other men being "such a sinful life" (Night Nurse paperwork) > the upward climb of healthy love from the Dante's Inferno Post > Edwin HAD to confess on the stairs and be accepted! It freed him of Hell~!

Simon moved on from Hell with Edwin's mutual sorrow for the two of them and somewhat understanding/forgiveness? Maybe self-acceptance from the gay guilt

Edwin's form saying he would serve in Hell for living such a sinful life and then be reassigned to a more pleasant state (Hell not an eternal afterlife, just time served and then moving one)

[image posted in @reviewcreature's post with @melefim's addition]

If Edwin went back now, loved and accepted by his friends and himself, would he pass on to the better place?

My post wondering about reincarnation in the Sandman Universe, which others weighed in on in the comments about how it's indeed canon

The parallels of the Lust room in hell being a butcher shop with bloody hanging bodies to reflect the debauchery of bloody writhing lust bodies ===> compare to "Girls' Night" when Jenny was running and hiding from stalker Maxine in her butcher shop behind meat ===> compare Edwin's arc of accepting "sodomite sin" of being attracted to men (challenge to the epitome and catalyst (ha) by the Cat King) and him having been through the Lust room of hell before and him STARING AT THE RED BULL ON THE BUTCHER SHOP WALL (as compared to directly in the first linked post)

The purity of Charles and Edwin's love compared to that and the stereotypes of how male love is depicted in media, as George, Steve, and Jayden have spoken out against gently in multiple interviews

How it's partially childlike, partially deep friendship where two men can hug and cry, partially a crush, partially potentially reciprocally romantic

The juxtaposition of Edwin's archetypical confession to Charles on the stairs of Hell on the way out of the Limbo of it, with Maxine guilty and desperate just below them, not even looking toward the open door

Fans wondering why it was so easy to get out of Hell. The worldbuilding canon saying that Hell is what you make of it (Charles says this in the original Season of Mists Ch 4 comic, Edwin says it in episode 7 to Simon). People in Hell stuck because they feel they deserve it.

@podcastenthusiast's post about being glad Edwin didn't see Simon move on, because then he'd really wonder we he himself suffered so long

==>CHARLES got Edwin out because he KNEW he didn't belong there!!!!

They push and pull each other by the arms the whole way to the top!!!!!!!

Magical weight in the snake pit "nothing's meant to leave this place"

Charles literally dragging Edwin out of Hell for the love and devotion to him!!!!!!!!!!!!

Allegory of dragging him out of his self-rejection and holding him by the face saying over and over "I love you. I accept you. I'm not leaving without you."

Openly gay producer/director Steve Yockey insisting on being the one to write Episode 7 and you can feel it in every color on the screen.

There's no higher power deciding this, despite the paperwork and minders ensuring everyone is sorted. It's an internal self-decided fate, unconscious.

I'm not gonna be able to link and list every pic and organize this in the state I'm in but--

ARE YOU SEEING ALL THE THINGS I'M SEEING?

Girl help I'm getting visions!!!!!!!!!!!!

[anxious-witch]

Jesus fucking christ. This post by @bluebugjay made me realize something. Something that kept bothering me about Charles' inital reaction to Edwin's confession.

He laughs briefly and says "Oh, I get it. It's like one of those Orpheus and Eurydice moments". I was so focused on the fact they made that metaphor within the Sandman universe than I missed a glaring, obvious bit. Charles laughed. That is not a reaction of someone who believes the other person. He thought it was a joke. He thought Edwin was just making a reference, not actually confessing. And he keeps that up until Edwin says "Charles, I'm quite serious". Then his face turns serious as the realization of this being real sinks in.

And I am completely baffled. Awestruck. And based on referenced post above, I think we can conclude Charles genuinely thought Edwin was above that. Above feelings of the romantic kind.

Let's rewind. Edwin, who never showed any interest in anyone for over 30 years, who scoffed at the prospect of Charles liking Crystal. Charles didn't register it as romantic jealousy, because he didn't think Edwin could feel that.

I wonder if he heard of how Edwin died, of how they called him Mary Ann, and correctly clocked Edwin was gay. Maybe he assumed Edwin had forsaken romance completely due to trauma?

But-but the Cat King! Charles was jealous of the Cat King! And he clearly flirted with Edwin!

Yes, indeed. But Charles never sees that Edwin responds to it. Edwin's relegation of his attraction to the Cat King happens when Charles isn't around. Perhaps Charles subconsciously knows, hence his insistence for Edwin to tell him, but he isn't sure. He just knows he and Edwin made a deal and that Edwin is acting odd. Nothing else.

When Monty comes along, we can see Charles is jealous. And he doesn't seem surprised when he thinks Edwin is talking about liking Monty. "You could have told me you like him". Yet, we clearly see it bothers him, even if he doesn't directly protest.

Then it clicked for me. Is this not exactly how one would act if they thought they had no chance of someone liking them for years and then finding out they like someone else??

No wonder Charles can't say he is in love with him back while they are on the stairs! If we assume that on top of all his issues with his dad and growing up in the 80s, he assumed Edwin would never wish to return anyone's romantic feelings, including Charles, it would be so difficult to shift into a mindset where that is a possibility!

Neither of these idiots were ever truly vulnerable with each other! Charles doesn't have feelings for Edwin because he pushed any possibility away. Not to mention then liking Crystal and knowing that whole situation is not yet resolved. He must have been so confused. No wonder he needs time to unpack all that, after belief he held for decades had been shattered in such a short period of time

[iwritenarrativesandstuff]

See, I think Charles’ annoyance and frustration with the Cat King really was just pure protectiveness and not any kind of jealousy - it’s understandable, because Edwin is not telling him what happened even though something clearly did, which is not typical for them. Edwin doesn’t usually hide things like this! Of course he’s worried!

Charles’ reaction to Monty, on the other hand, is difficult to explain in a way that isn’t jealousy. You could say he’s being protective again, but Charles shows no sign of distrust in Monty, and had no idea of who Monty was or that he might betray them - he was actually very chill with him, except in a select few specific scenes. You could say he just doesn’t like him because he got brushed off during their first meeting, but not only does that not seem like Charles at all, it also doesn’t make sense, since, again, in most instances, Charles is genuinely friendly and is happy when Monty compliments him and seems to have come around to liking him (it completely flies over his head that this is a petty jab at Edwin on Monty’s part but oh well hahaha). You could say it changes up their status quo a bit and that bothers Charles. I do think this bothers him a bit, but I think, unlike Edwin, Charles’ fear and frustration here is directed more at situations (the Cat King whisking him away for several hours, as an example) than others. He’s sociable and likes being able to talk to new people. There’s absolutely no way he’d begrudge Edwin doing the same - and he doesn’t… with Niko. Edwin and Niko hit it off and become very close and that never bothers Charles at all. He’s incredibly endeared to her, just like the rest, and for the most part, he’s chill with Monty too, and smiles pretty knowingly when Edwin confesses to him having awakened some feelings. The only exceptions, where he shows definite annoyance, are when Monty first shows up and gets really in Edwin’s personal space to show him the astrology chart he made, and when Edwin is so sucked into the book Monty gave him that he doesn’t hear that Charles is talking to him, to which he annoyedly says that they seem to have been “spending a lot of time together”.

You could say he’s unused to having anyone get in Edwin’s personal space like that, but, again, Niko. She’s very tactile with him and he doesn’t seem to mind all that much; they spend time together watching things. If it was just someone getting close with Edwin in general, not only would that be weirdly possessive for the character, but it would also mean he would show discomfort with anyone getting close, I think. Does Charles see Monty as more of a potential threat than Niko, seeing as he knows her and her personality and doesn’t know Monty? Well, maybe, but again, Charles shows no sign of distrusting Monty at all.

Monty is a boy. Okay. So something about seeing Edwin so close to a boy that is not him, getting lost in thought over something this boy gave him, really rubs Charles the wrong way. Charles appears to catch on just as quickly as anyone else that there is something (or it looks like something) between Edwin and Monty. He is not surprised when Edwin comes out to him in episode 6, and in fact, seems to have just been waiting for him to verbalize it. He smiles and is not bothered at all by Edwin showing (what he thinks is) a romantic interest in Monty - he just doesn’t like it when Monty clearly shows a romantic interest in Edwin. Um. Well. Well.

Charles is jealous. I really don’t know what else to say.

Look, when I first watched this show, I actually didn’t want them to end up together romantically - I love the idea of one having fallen in love with another who does not reciprocate and the two of them still loving each other just as much. That Edwin’s confession made them closer instead of making things awkward is such a beautiful outcome to this build up and I absolutely love it. However. On my two rewatches, I caught a lot more little details, and I think it would be very strange if the show did not follow up on this. That, plus the deliberate quality of these “jealousy” moments where the camera focuses on him, Charles’ Orpheus coding throughout the show, the fact that Edwin’s arc was far more about realizing his feelings for Charles specifically than just coming to terms with his sexuality, and that even the actors admit that Charles’ response to the confession kind of left things open, it really seems to me like the path leads to a romantic endgame for them, or at the very least, that this possibility will be explored in more depth.

**This is just my reading of it. Please do not use this post as a gotcha for anyone who loves them as a platonic duo or people who really love Crystal and Charles together (because let’s face it, they’re super cute too). I’m just doing my rambles. As per usual.

[shit-talker]

I love Charles' reaction to Edwin's confession.

Do I want Charles and Edwin to be together? Yes, yes, I do, but I am a HUGE fan of staying true to the characters and that reaction? That right there? It fits Charles so much.

Charles doesn't reject Edwin. He tells him that he doesn't know, and that makes sense. These two have spent the better part of 35 years together with limited contact with anyone else regularly - there's no litrally no expectations on their relationship. They were just Edwin and Charles, and that was it. For Edwin, he's gone through a whole journey of self-discovery in this season, but Charles? He hasn't had to think about the change in their relationship. Obviously, it's going to be hard for him to reciprocate those feelings right away!! This is a relationship that's lasted a VERY long time, and in that time, I don't think they went through a lot of major changes like that. It would have been unnatural if Charles had been able to immediately decide that he is fully in love with Edwin, and yeah, we see Charles make decisions very brashly and impulsively, but we've also seen how much he cares about Edwin. Maybe he's worried that if he accepts it now and regrets it later, it would be hard to go back to being friends. Maybe he's confused about Crystal. Maybe he was just in a really high stress environment and didn't know what the hell to do because it was such a shock to him.

I don't like when people call this relationship one-sided because it's not really; it's unexplored, sure, but not entirely one-sided.

[reinanova]

dead boy detectives ep 5 live blogging reactions

cmon charles read the room. (also you’re in love with edwin stop pretending to be straight)

yasss girl dump his ass (also you’re alive he’s dead idk why you thought this would work out)

oh shit the secret admirer is the librarian no fucking way not me thinking it was gonna be the witch or something

nothing says love like kicking an undead social worker off a cliff amiright charles?

oh yeah, real professional, falling in love with your best friend. also thank fucking god they (charles and crystal) didn’t have sex bcuz that would’ve been some bullshit

JUST. CONFESS. YOUR. LOVE. ALREADY. DAMMIT

oh yeah dragon mascot gesturing at a girl standing alone to follow it. yeah not creepy at all

edwin’s obviousness to gay things is sending me lmao

haha YES the boys haunting the shit out of twitchy ritchie

“can you unlock it?” proceeds to beat the shit out of the box

i’m with you edwin. i too am overwhelmed by the emotions of the day

LETS GO LESBIANS

wait no she’s a creepy and crazy stalker nooooo jenny deserves a nice woman to love her

oh yeah maxine is off the rails creepy crazy stalker murderer lady

FUCK YEAH DETECTIVE BOYS KILL THST BITCH. wait no if they’re with the bitch boys. so who??? who killed maxine? i would like to thank them. bcuz she didn’t slip right? she was pushed

jenny deserves the world i’m so sad it was a creepy stalker instead of a nice woman for her to love

charles you ARE good 🥺🥺🥺

and then edwin making him feel better 🥹🥹🥹

now KISS

omg i thought charles actually was going in for a kiss but no it was a hug. but hey i’ll take it for now. For Now

ohhhhh edwin’s falling in love for real for real. and he’s starting to realize it!!!

you tell him crystal!! also fuck that guy david is the Worst

i hope edwin lets monty down and tells him to fuck off. HELL FUCKING YEAH. dump his ass even tho you were never dating in the first place

feelings??? 👀👀👀 gay feelings???? 👀👀👀 of love???? 👀👀👀👀 for your best friend???? 👀👀👀👀

wait wUT

FUCKING TELL HIM EDWIN (poor monty. i don’t feel that bad for him tho)

but he’s talking about charles right? RIGHT???

[galacticlamps]

I don't want to get too caught up on semantics but I have to say I really feel like it's an unfair reading of the situation to call what Charles does in the Staircase Scene a "rejection."

I've already talked about how I think that scene's strength lies in the act of telling itself and Edwin's confession as the conclusion of his self-discovery arc. And I understand how the fact that that arc involved things like sexuality & attraction left it open to being viewed under a sort of romance-plot-specific lens, but evaluating the whole thing on that criteria still feels like a misrepresentation.

I don't think Edwin is saying "Love me" in that scene. Maybe he would've been asking for that, if this had all happened under different circumstances - and sure, generally, he'd presumably like that to happen - but it'd still be a kind of insane request for him to make right as he's being literally rescued from hell. (Especially since, even though the audience & Charles can both see the rescue as so in-character we might take it for granted, Edwin clearly didn't, if his consistently surprised confused & appalled reactions to Charles being there are anything to go by). I think he's feeling very loved already at that point, and I have a hard time believing desperation to simply have that reiterated is what drove him to speak up at such an inopportune moment.

I think what he's really saying there is "Hear me" - and as a listener and a confidant, Charles does anything but reject him. Maybe it's splitting hairs a bit, but if the distinction between "please don't turn me down" and "please understand the person in front of you" matters anywhere, it's in relation to Charles' response because he is so accepting of the confession as a confession. Not only does he take what Edwin tells him well, despite it being the sort of thing that might rock the foundation of the most important relationship in his existence, he also accepts the fact that Edwin is in such a vulnerable and worked up state that he has to do it right now despite it endangering them both. Charles would, truthfully, be totally justified in mostly ignoring it or passing over it quickly and inconclusively, insisting that this wasn't the time or place - but instead everything he says and does in that scene is geared toward giving Edwin's announcement the attention & understanding he needs so badly - and that includes responding with honesty about his own feelings, even if they might not otherwise be exactly what you'd want to hear after declaring your love for someone. Charles takes his time (perhaps foolishly, but certainly necessarily) and gives Edwin a response that is warm and familiar, while also being kind, affectionate, open, serious, and above all correspondingly worthy of the weight of the thing Edwin has just entrusted him with. That seems an awful lot to pass over simply because he doesn't also happen to be in love with him too.

Edwin's confession is so not a come-on that whether or not Charles reciprocates the romantic element is, at best, secondary to his overall reaction, and using that piece of it to call the whole thing a rejection feels like a very inaccurate shorthand to get in the habit of using as a summary of his role in the scene.

[melefim]

Dead Boy Detectives Score is out!

I’ve also added it to my playlist with all the other songs used in the show here:

I’ll be doing a complete listing of where all the songs are found in the show like I did for the regular soundtrack, but in the meantime here’s what I recognize from a quick listen/ click through:

(Episode numbers are in parentheses)

Death Becomes Him: Gas mask ghost street chase, Death in the office (1)

The Dead Boy Detectives Main Title theme: self- explanatory- opening titles for every episode, as well as credits for 1-3.

So Many Questions for So Many Fools: Edwin’s Flashback (1), intercepted by cats & escorted to the cannery (2), (escort to cannery bit also plays when Niko & Crystal are walking to the cannery in episode 8), Edwin gives Crystal a list of questions for Niko —> We have the same left (2)

Little Girl Collector: Esther’s theme— bits of it played throughout: Esther meets Crystal (1), Yelling at Monty (1), Esther browsing Tragic Mick’s (2), Esther in the butcher shop (3), Esther sees Monty with Edwin (3), Esther & Monty in the kitchen (5&6), Esther walking down the street (8)

Want and Pleasure: Cat King theme- all or partially played during Edwin’s punishment discussion (2), Meeting by the lighthouse (4), Cat King in forest (6), Esther in the cannery (7)

Niko: bit starting around 2:00 is following Maxine (5), 2:45-3:00ish is setting up the butcher shop for the date & Jenny’s reaction(5)

Sadness Came Too/ Looking for Boys: up until 1:37 is Niko & Crystal talking about their families (2), 1:38 and on is the Night Nurse/ Lost & Found department theme. Sections are heard at end of episode 1, reviewing the boy’s files (2), the notary (3), interviewing the Devlin girls (3), Night nurse arrives in Port Townsend (4), upstairs with Jenny (4), that night on the cliff (4), appears to take the boys (6), opening the door to hell (7), and when she leaves at the end of 7.

Awakening Skeletons: Dandelion shrine field (2)

Stuck in a jar: Dandelion Sprite theme- when they’re first in the jar & when Niko first sees them (2), the three scenes with them taunting Niko in Devlin house (3), Jenny sees them (8), very end of igloo & end credits (8)

Odd Customers and Cohorts: first bit is Potential client interviews (3), second half might be at Tragic Mick’s?

VHS and David: Devlin House- last minute of the song is after the loop is broken and Death comes (3)

You Can Talk To Me: first bit is them back at the tongue & tail after the lighthouse Leapers (4)

All So Obvious: 2:20-3:17 is summoning Shelby (5)

Never Been Kissed/ Hell: first bit is Niko & Edwin talking about kissing (4), Middle is probably Charles descending into Hell?? (7), 4:30 on is the ‘Previously on Dead Boy Detectives’ background music (2-8)

I Messed Up: Crystal & Jenny in the alley, Crystal & Charles in the alley, Crystal unlocks her door, Charles shows her his parents (1)

Accepting Being Dead: beginning is almost but not exactly the bit in Hell from when the spider grabs Edwin to when Charles finds him again. (7) 1:00-2:30 is Edwin coming out to Charles (6). Last 30 seconds is Charles crying on the cliff (4), Bad guy talk (5), and right after he realizes he’s dead in his flashback (7).

Mirror Maze: Maxine attacks Jenny (5), pretty sure at least part is the David/Crystal/Charles confrontation in the forest (6)

Run From Hell / I’m in Love with You: first 45 seconds is Charles & Edwin running from the baby doll spider, :45- 3:30 is the second scene with Simon (do you think it has to be torture being the way we are?), 3:30- end is Edwin’s confession (7). Confession time can also be heard during conversation at end of (6) and the hug at end of (8).

Her Own Fault: first bit is Fight at Esther’s house, starts when Esther throws Niko against the wall, goes through Niko’s death

Esther’s Origin/ A New Deal: Cat King’s Esther story (8), 2:50ish onwards is the Principal looking at the case board through the end of the scene to the zoom out the window (8)

I will be going through and trying to find timestamps for where every song plays in the show, but it’ll take a bit. Until then, hope people find this useful! (And if you know any parts of songs that I missed, please feel free to drop a comment!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you like lists of things like I do, you can check out my other Dead Boy Detectives list posts here:

Full soundtrack with timestamps

When Charles’ Shirt Colors Change

George Rextrew’s Edwin comic inspo board

Moves, Incidents, and Cases Masterlist

Swearing Masterlist

[spellbooksandcricketbats]

Thinking about why DBD managed to hit me so hard in the Older Queer feelings place.

I went to high school from 2002-2006 and it fucking sucked. For reference, YouTube wasn't founded until 2006, and this was before smartphones and social media and thus easier access to ~*~socially transgressive~*~ material.

The only queer characters I remember seeing on TV while growing up were punchlines (Will & Grace) or grimdark suffering and tragedy (Queer as Folk, The L Word, Nip/Tuck). The biggest slur hurled at us was gay ("Dude, that's so fuckin gay, don't be such a pussy!"). I never actually came out of the closet in high school, but I was still bullied for being perceived as queer because I dressed goth and, at the time, goth was still enough of a subculture to get mashed in with 'everything else society considers fucked up.' I knew two 'out' queer kids in high school, both gay cis boys who leaned effeminate, and dear god they were not treated kindly. Matthew Shepard's brutal torture and murder was still fresh in our collective memory. I also made the classic mistake of falling in love with one of my oldest, and straightest, girl friends. 🙃

And this was near the California Bay Area, traditionally considered one of the most queer-friendly regions!

So anyway, fast-forward to today, and here's Edwin, being unabashedly effeminate in all the ways that I learned to associate with getting a fast fuckin beatdown, and he's...treated with respect, both by other characters and ALSO the broader narrative. He's the recipient of multiple different kinds of love and attraction. None of his flaws have anything to do with being effeminate. And even the surface-level dynamic of Charles being his self-proclaimed protector has nothing to do with Edwin's own abilities -- that he is, in fact, able to endure in ways that no other character has been shown capable of yet, and again, not for any reasons that have to do with the narrative itself punishing Edwin for daring to be gay.

And then: the confession in Hell. When I eventually confessed to my best friend, she hemmed and hawed and put me off without a concrete answer, only that she was happy with her current boyfriend. Fair enough! But then she strung me along for a couple of years until I finally pushed for an answer on whether or not there was any hope, and only then did she said no, she's straight. In retrospect, both of us could have handled it better than we did; we haven't spoken since.

So when Edwin confessed, I found myself getting tense, bracing myself for the inevitable brush-off and awkwardness, which is a common reaction IRL, just...not the fictional wish-fulfillment one from a viewer, y'know? Except that's not what happened! It's not that Charles didn't give Edwin a hard 'no' (no one is ever, ever obligated to return affection), it's that Charles gave Edwin an HONEST one, AND it was kind, and there wasn't a sense that their friendship had lost any trust or anything!

And I'll be honest, that made my cracked, stoic heart cry just a little bit and healed something from my late teen/young adult self.

[hephanna]

2 ,3, 5, 7 for the dbda ask game

Another person wanting to play along!! I am absolutely delighted, thanks so much. 2. My favourite episode is of course Episode 7 "The Case of the Very Long Stairway" which has some of my most beloved moments: Edwin & Charles meeting for the first time (which has resulted in one my favourite popular headcanons: Charles enjoys Edwin reading to him aloud), Charles' initial reaction to his death, the Night Nurse showing some actual heartfelt emotions, and of course Edwin's confession + Charles' wonderful speech in response. The scene between Edwin & Simon is also quite lovely. 3. A character that I think is underrated is Kashi! I absolutely loved Kashi, as well as the Kashi/Night Nurse dynamic. I would have loved to see more of him and his relationship with the Night Nurse in Season 2 (if Netflix hadn't decided to be such cunts about things). 5. Which character do I relate to the most - I'm horribly basic, so this is another toss-up between Charles & Edwin. My fiancé says Edwin, which makes sense: Catholic high-school, our own personal libraries and love for languages, we're both terribly stubborn and not that great with people. However, I also resonate with Charles quite a bit! I too would rather make a joke about anything than be forced to suffer through an awkward emotional conversation, and would love to hit my problems with a bat.

7. My favourite headcanon from the fandom so far - I did mention a bit of that above, which is the fact that I love the idea of Edwin reading to Charles aloud on a regular basis, as well as dyslexic!Charles headcanons.

[schelluminium]

Picking Up The Pieces

6K Fanfiction

Edwin Payne/Charles Rowland

or

Edwin Payne & Charles Rowland

can be read as either

Emotional Hurt/Comfort, Canon Compliant, Set Post S01, Edwin POV, Arguments, Talking about Feelings and Trauma, Crying

When Charles won't stop asking about what really happened between Edwin and The Cat King, it leads to the two friends finally sitting down and talking and sorting through a few things that are on their mind after returning back to London.

Note: I spent the w h o l e day writing this and pouring every thought, interpretation and feeling about the Dead Boy Detectives into this. This is what I imagine could happen right after the ending of the first season; a way how feelings and experiences could be talked through. It's only the beginning though. The boys have a lot more work to do.

Funnily enough I wanted to write some wholesome fluff but the sad feelings poured in, so this happened instead. It's quite alright, since there has to be a lot of healing on both sides before the wholesomeness even has a chance, in my opinion.

Ever since they returned to their London office a few weeks ago, Edwin had picked up on a bit of a tension between their agency members. Of course The Night Nurse had not been thrilled to be a part of their detective work instead of getting him and Charles sorted in the Lost and Found Department. Her negative mood was explainable.

And of course, Niko's death had not only shaken him to the core. The others surely felt her absence too and were mourning just as he himself did.

But Edwin had the feeling that there was more. The way he, Charles and Crystal interacted seemed stiff. Charles smiled less. Edwin could not pinpoint exactly what made him believe it to be unrelated to Niko's disappearance, but he was sure of it.

He prided himself in his detective work and his investigative instincts made him pick up on clues confirming his suspicions.

For example, how Crystal and Charles seemed to have created a distance between them that felt odd. The frequency of them pairing up to investigate and research for a case decreased, while the opportunities to do so did not. They seemed to not be particularly excited for these outings either.

In contrast to Crystal's and Charles' cooled interactions, Crystal and Edwin himself seemed to be on remarkably good terms. She took their differing opinions on case work in stride and in turn Edwin found himself addressing her much more politely than he did when they first met.

Lastly, something had changed between Edwin and Charles. His best friend seemed to be less relaxed. Truth be told, this seemed to be more of a constant state these days, rather than a reaction to being alone with his best friend.

While Crystal slept at night in a spare room they had acquired a bed for, Edwin had expected to spend time with Charles in the same manner they had for nearly 35 years. Reading in companionable silence, trying out new magic artifacts, doing case work or on occasion, when they wanted to delve into their child-like ways, playing board games.

This, however, was not the case. Charles seemed restless while Edwin tried to keep up his habits. Studying modern technological devices, taking notes and sorting their case files was often interrupted by Charles making some kind of ruckus. Whether it was throwing a ball against a wall repeatedly, pouring out the contents of his backpack only to throw everything back inside, or pacing around the apartment, it cut through Edwin's need for tranquility and began getting on his nerves.

Of course he wondered- no, feared that this behaviour was directly related to Edwin's ill-timed confession on the stairs of Hell. Even though Charles had reassured him that nothing had changed between them, Edwin was not so sure. How could Charles be alright with Edwin so much as looking at him, knowing his best mate wanted to kiss him?

Edwin had never imagined Charles to feel this way for him. But that did not mean he hadn't secretly hoped. And as gentle and kind as Charles' reaction to Edwin's honesty had been, it had not been what his heart had desired. His first and foremost priority had been to stay friends with Charles the way they were though. Nobody had ever taken Edwin's ways in stride the way Charles Rowland had. Accepting, with no intention of changing the way he walked or talked or thought.

He cherished their connection, no matter the underlying feelings on his side and wished for nothing more than that his feelings would not disturb their closeness.

Related to his confession- or maybe not at all related, Edwin did not know- Charles had not let up on inquiring what exactly had happened between Edwin and The Cat King. He frequently brought the topic up in conversation, although only when the two of them were alone.

Apart from the fact that both the encounter with The Cat King and with Monty had helped Edwin realise truths about his identity and his feelings towards his best friend, Edwin had not told Charles details about his conversations with either mystical being.

He had not thought it to be crucial information Charles needed to understand his journey of self-discovery. Charles seemed to think differently. However, he did not seem to be half as interested in Monty as in The Cat King.

Lately, it wasn't a rare occurrence that he asked about him a few times a week. Today, though, Charles had the nerve to ask again after already having been told no only a few hours ago.

"I do not wish to talk about it, Charles", Edwin snapped his book shut and looked up at his best friend from behind his desk. He was at a loss as to what could have brought this up this time and frankly also as to why Charles did not accept his answer. His inquiries were getting ridiculous and Edwin felt on edge.

"You never wanna talk about it mate, but I saw how much it bothered you. Why are you so hell-bent- oh, um oops, I mean, why don't you just tell me? You know I'd never judge you”, Charles smiled and Edwin supposed he tried to look reassuring but there was an edge to that smile, to his eyes, that Edwin did not like. 

The tension in him, the helpless feeling of not knowing what to do to not lose his friend, the mourning of Niko's death, his own identity that he was not at all done understanding- it all suddenly accumulated to only one feeling. A feeling that tried to hold all the others down, to not make them be felt because it just hurt too much: annoyance.

"I believe it to be the same manner in which you refuse to talk about your father”, Edwin heard himself say and a second ticked by before he understood what he had done.

He and Charles just stared at one another in shock, before Charles’ face hardened. 

Edwin realised his mistake in that moment. This sensitive topic had to be handled with care, which was not something Edwin was able to do in this moment.

"Wait, Charles! I didn’t mean to-"

"Oh no, well. I get it. I see how it is."

"No, you don't understand-"

"Oh, I don't understand? Sure mate, I was never in Hell. I've never had to endure as much pain as you. Doesn't mean my life didn't fucking suck as much as my death”, Charles spat back. He looked positively dangerous in the anger that was boiling up inside of him.

“You just, you don't know- it's fucking trauma, okay? It was traumatic. What would you know about being traumatized because no matter what you did, it was never good enough? What would you know about being fucking inadequate doing anything? That's its own kind of hell! You wouldn't understand that either, cause you've always been fucking perfect!"

Edwin felt Charles’ words like a slap to the face. He knew of his insecurities regarding his own worth and abilities. He knew of his bullies and his unloving father. He also knew that he did not know even half of it all, of the impact it left on his friend and that Charles knew not even half of his own struggles either. 

But Edwin had not known- had never thought possible- that Charles would hold his trauma against him. Charles who was always so understanding and kind, so much so that he played his own problems down on the regular.

It made Edwin wonder whether he really, truly knew Charles after all. And that thought stung like a knife forcefully shoved between his ribs. It also made anger well up inside of him, something he rarely let himself feel. But all of a sudden it was all he could feel.

"You believe me to be free of trauma from the time when I was still alive? Hell didn't just start after my death!” Edwin shouted incredulously.

“Why do you think I could never understand? Because I wasn't literally sacrificed for being the way I was?! Being sacrificed for being fucking wrong?! But sure, I always have the answers, I always know everything. I fucking don't! I don't know anything! And I sure as hell don't know how to deal with my best friend rejecting me only to force me to talk about my, my gay awakening or whatever Crystal called it!”

He had sprung up from his chair and both boys stared each other down, fuming and hurt.

“I never imagined you would measure your experience against mine. This is not like you”, Edwin said in a calmer, quieter tone.

“We have been through difficult times, respectively, before we died. I don't think- we should not compare ourselves like this.”

Charles let out a humourless laugh.

“Oh, you say that? Mr. ‘I don't care what Crystal's been through ‘cause it could never compare to my 70 years in hell'? Well, you know fucking what? Nothing compares to anything!”

Edwin looked down in shame. 

“I realise my mistake now. I have changed.”

“And that's- that's exactly what I don't understand!” Charles shouted and he looked less angry and more desperate now.

Edwin was confused. He knew they were having a very significant argument now and he wanted to continue solving this conflict, but he hoped they could try and do so in a calmer, more structured way.

Quickly he walked around his desk and came to stand in front of Charles. He needed to better see his eyes and to feel the comfort of his presence, even if it wasn't truly physical. Charles seemed to deflate like a balloon before his eyes and Edwin took his hand.

“You don't understand that I have changed?” Edwin asked quietly.

Charles broke their eye contact and looked to the side but didn't try to pull his hand away. Seconds ticked by before he spoke.

“It's all just… so sudden.”

“How do you mean that?” Edwin asked.

Charles sighed and looked back at him.

“Can we, I don't know, can we at least sit down?” 

The two dead boys sat down on their couch side by side, a few inches between their thighs, looking straight ahead at the opposite wall. Well, Charles was. Edwin kept sneaking glances at his profile.

Charles took some time to ponder over his words, kneading his knuckles as he did.

“It's just been like, one, maybe two months since we got to Port Townsend”, he started eventually. 

“We had our, our thing, our agency and routine and everything for over 30 years. And we were quite happy, weren't we? Before Port Townsend?” 

Charles turned his head to look at his partner and Edwin was surprised to see his eyes hold such vulnerability. Charles really wanted an answer and Edwin was more than ready to tell him what he wanted to know.

“Yes. I was quite happy before Port Townsend”, he risked a small smile.

“Were you?”

Charles nodded. Then shook his head and ran his hands through his hair in frustration.

“I was, yeah. I mean, I told you, I wouldn't wanna be dead with anyone else but you. It was good, what we had. But now… I feel like I never truly… I don't think I could- ugh”, he groaned and hid his face in his hands, his elbows on his knees.

Edwin tentatively reached out and placed his hand on Charles’ upper arm, hesitantly stroking along its length in a way he had seen Crystal do before. She was way better with comforting people than Edwin ever was. As if reading his mind, Charles straightened up and let his hands sink down to look at Edwin, really looking him in the eyes.

“You were never one for comforting gestures”, he said and a small and fragile smile played along his lips.

Edwin drew his hand back in shame and folded both hands in his lap.

“Oh no”, Charles quickly added.

“This was nice.”

He chewed on his lip before continuing.

“I just thought about how there are just so many ways to be there for others. I always knew you weren't the best in social situations but… I think I forgot just how good you are at making people feel at ease and less afraid, in your own way.”

Edwin looked up in surprise. He knew his face was undoubtedly showing his skepticism at this statement.

“It's true”, Charles smiled at Edwin's doubt, this time looking much more like himself than before.

“It was literally what you did when we first met. Keeping me company, reading to me, easing me into dying as peacefully as possible. It was the most anyone ever did for me.”

Edwin gasped and looked to the side. Watching and listening to Charles speak so highly of him, so full of affection, had his imaginary stomach do flips. In the past he would have waved it off with a blush, unable to take a compliment from his best friend, but now things were different. It was so much harder now to take compliments from the boy he loved. Because even if Edwin himself did not believe what Charles said, his heart was now craving for it to mean more than Charles intended. To mean that their feelings were in sync.

Charles didn't urge Edwin to look back or to accept his compliment. He seemed to be slowly setting foot into the water, testing out how it felt to talk about the things that were on his mind.

“I should have let you, back then”, he mumbled more to himself and Edwin had to ask what he meant.

“I should have let you comfort me. More than you already did”, Charles clarified. He was back to staring at the wall and Edwin was thankful for it. He wasn't sure how much eye contact he could take at this moment.

“I guess I didn’t want to get greedy, or to dump all my shit on you or…”, he trailed off, again being silent for a while before he spoke again.

“Okay no. That wasn't it. I just… I simply didn't want to feel all this pain.”

At that, Charles did look back to Edwin and he felt like this was the most open Edwin had ever seen his friend. The vulnerability in his gaze kept Edwin's eyes glued to his.

“I wanted to shove it all far away from me. I thought… I thought ‘I am dead now, it's all over, so why get stuck on the past?’ so I decided to never think about it all again but of course that didn't work. So instead I decided to at least not talk about it again.”

Edwin grabbed Charles’ hand on an impulse, squeezing it probably harder than would have been comfortable for a living human. Charles looked down at their joint hands and turned his palm up to properly clasp their hands together. He smiled sadly.

“I mean, it worked. It worked for over 30 years but it kept me from getting closer to my best mate”, Charles squeezed Edwin's hand back.

“It feels like such a joke. We've known each other for so long and still never really got to know one another.”

“I don't believe that to be true”, Edwin spoke up.

“We have gotten to know each other through our actions these past decades. I never needed to know your tragic past in detail to realise what kind of person you are. And you are the best kind”, Edwin almost whispered the last part. Ever since his confession, all the compliments he gave to Charles felt like he was baring too much of his soul, being too open about his romantic feelings towards him. He could not shake the feeling that his opinion on Charles’ good qualities was going to be too much. And still he needed Charles to know how good of a person he was and how much he was appreciated.

“It's just…”, Charles seemed to be back to being uneasy and squirmy about his thoughts and Edwin squeezed his hand as hard as he could, trying to get Charles to feel as much as possible to ground him.

It seemed to help because Charles relaxed his shoulders a bit.

“It was always the two of us, ever since I died. It was like you welcomed me into the afterlife with open arms. You showed me everything and helped me get used to being a ghost. I am forever thankful for your friendship.”

Again Edwin felt uneasy at the praise but also because he sensed a ‘but’ hanging menacingly above their heads.

“You were always there for me and then Port Townsend happened and you struggled to come to terms with your identity and I didn’t even help you with that.”

Edwin's eyes widened. Was this what all of this was about?

“I feel… I fear that I'm not that good of a friend”, Charles confessed quietly and looked down at his lap.

Edwin could not have this. He used his free hand to cup Charles’ jaw and turned his face towards himself. Charles refused to look at him until Edwin began stroking his cheek lightly.

“You, Charles Rowland, are the best friend anyone could ask for”, he said and his tone left no room for doubts whether or not he really meant that.

“I never really had a friend before you. Nobody was interested in getting close to me. But you did. You did without thinking about it, without hesitation. You've always had my back. You always protected me. You've loved me without expectations.”

Edwin let his hand slowly sink down to join his other one in clasping Charles’ hands in his.

“There is nothing, and I mean nothing, you ever did or didn't do that I regret.”

Charles gulped and nodded shortly.

“I know that your expectations towards yourself are vastly different from mine. But please believe me, you have nothing to feel bad about when it comes to our friendship.”

“That's hard to do, mate”, Charles chuckled shakily. 

“I know”, Edwin said and squeezed both of Charles’ hands.

“So, this was what upset you? Thinking you failed me because you did not help me figure out my feelings? There is nothing you could have done, since I didn’t tell you what was occupying my mind.”

“It was part of it, yeah”, Charles disentangled one hand from Edwin to scratch at his scalp.

“Would you mind telling me what the other part was?” Edwin asked tentatively. 

He was aware that this level of honesty about his feelings and struggles was new territory for Charles- for Edwin too- and he was already immensely proud of his best friend for opening up so much. Pushing for more than he could handle could very well close Charles off completely and yet Edwin wanted to ease Charles into trusting him with all of it.

Charles let out a long sigh and momentarily closed his eyes. When he opened them again he still looked out of his depth but also somehow determined.

“I'll try”, he said.

“I was hyped at first, when Crystal came along and there was a living girl and it was all new and exciting.”

Edwin nodded along. Not because he understood. He did not. He had not liked the change in pace and routine. But he needed Charles to feel like he could tell him everything and be free of judgment.

“But after you got that bracelet, it all shifted somehow. More changed than I was comfortable with. And the change didn't just start something new, it also brought me back to my past, hard, which was the last thing I wanted.”

Edwin smiled in understanding and hummed in acknowledgement. There wasn't much he could do in this situation, not much he could do while Charles was baring his soul to him. But he needed his best friend to know that he was listening and trying to understand what he was thinking.

“And you started to change too. You kept things from me. Started acting differently. Started hanging out with others. I know, I did too and I had no reason to be jealous. I was just so confused about what had brought this on.”

Charles fiddled with his earring while he continued.

“When you know someone for 30 years and you think you know all about their comfort zones and limits, and suddenly that starts to change and expand… I guess I always took for granted that you were comfortable in my presence while you weren't with others. And suddenly you started hanging out with Monty.”

“He was a crow”, Edwin felt the need to remind him.

“I know, I know. But we didn't know at the time, did we?” Charles asked.

“Anyway, right now I am glad that you learned to let others in. You deserve more than one friend. You deserve for others to see how great you are. Just at that time… I really just didn't understand it. And I still don't to be really honest.”

“So…this is why you are so interested in knowing what The Cat King and I talked about?” Edwin asked.

He could not deny that he was feeling uneasy about this. About telling the boy he loved how he had responded to a flirtatious cat man who had awakened not only emotional but also physical urges in Edwin, making him painfully aware of his attraction to men. He felt like Charles was asking too much of him. If he didn't feel differently about their friendship knowing that Edwin was in love with him, how would that change if he was confronted with the carnal reality of Edwin's preferences?

“Yeah. I just want to understand how he managed to get that out of you, to make you think about all that stuff”, Charles shrugged.

“Your realisations, your change, he inspired it, didn't he?” 

“He did, yeah…”, Edwin admitted slowly.

“But it was not all his doing. Monty had to do with it too. And a lot of it was actually Niko.”

That thought stung. Charles seemed to sense that and squeezed Edwin's hand once more. Their back and forth with squeezing reassurance into each other's hands made Edwin feel oddly warm inside.

“You really hit it off, you two”, Charles said with a gentle smile. 

“Made me happy to see you get so close.”

Edwin was suddenly thrown back to Niko giving him the red sea glass. For courage. She had inspired him again and again to be brave, through little, kind gestures. It made it somewhat easier to make his decision.

“If I tell you what the Cat King said to me, you must promise me to not hold it against me”, he told Charles without looking at him.

It was now Charles’ turn to lift up Edwin's face by pushing his chin up with his fingers to make him look at him. He was smiling one of his softest, gentlest smiles.

“Edwin Payne, I promise you to never hold anything against you that makes you who you are. You're my best mate. I love you the way you are.”

Edwin was suddenly very aware of the way his bow tie and shirt collar sat snugly against his ghostly skin. He wasn't supposed to actually feel it and yet the phantom sensation of the fabric digging into his neck made him uneasy.

“Wait, I-”, he pulled his hands back from Charles and made to take off his bow tie and open the two top buttons of his shirt.

Ghosts did not need to breathe and still Edwin had the feeling of being more free to do so now. There were some ways in which one simply couldn't stop feeling human, he supposed. 

“This is better”, he sighed and took Charles’ hand back in his. At this point he couldn't imagine not having this point of contact with his best friend while recalling his first encounter with The Cat King. 

Charles was silent, patiently waiting for Edwin to be ready the way he had waited for Charles before.

“When I was transported away from you and Crystal”, Edwin started, “I found myself in The Cat King's sleeping quarters.”

Charles’ jaw twitched and Edwin pressed hard into his hand.

“Please let me… please let me talk freely. You do not need to worry about my well being, even in the past. I just want to be able to tell you this without… without judgment”, Edwin pleaded and Charles’ eyes widened.

“I told you, I would never judge you! This guy just makes me feel-”

“I know”, Edwin interrupted him.

“I just don't want you to judge him either.”

Charles closed his mouth and nodded, although he did not look convinced. 

“I asked where you had gone and he…”, Edwin gulped and then forced himself to continue.

“He asked if we had a special friendship. I didn’t understand his meaning behind that at that point.”

Edwin bit his lip at the memory. At what he knew now. At all the little secrets tucked away in his heart that The Cat King had kicked loose like fallen leaves from a carefully swept up pile. 

“He told me that his kingdom was about… was about want and pleasure. And he insinuated that my punishment could be pleasure too.”

Charles balled his hands into fists, making one of them slip from Edwin's grasp. Edwin sucked in a sharp breath on instinct and felt panic rise in his chest.

Charles immediately grabbed his hand once more and squeezed as hard as Edwin had before.

“I swear, I'm trying not to judge. And I assure you, this has nothing to do with the both of you being guys”, Charles said and his other hand came up to grab Edwin's upper arm, holding him steady.

“I just feel like… he was abusing his power in that situation. He had the upper hand and he was clearly coming onto you, expecting who knows what-”

“It's fine. Charles. It's fine”, Edwin tried to soothe him.

“I don't hold a grudge. And you shouldn't either, not on my behalf.”

Charles tried to relax but there was still a stiffness to his shoulders that Edwin could do nothing about.

“Can I continue? It is just a retelling of the past. Really, Charles. Nothing happened there that left me feeling mistreated or hurt.”

“Okay. I trust you”, Charles said and Edwin hadn't even realised that it was exactly what he needed to hear right then. For Charles to trust him to know his own boundaries and not let himself be exploited was somehow important to him. He needed to feel capable of taking care of himself, to not need to be rescued. He generally appreciated Charles’ concern and his will to protect Edwin from all harm. But this was a story of self-reflection and Edwin needed to feel in control of this topic.

“Alright then. I, admittedly, did not understand how I had done harm by using the binding spell on this cat and I told him as much. He was not pleased by it. And yet…”, Edwin trailed off and felt his face get hot somehow. 

“He told me that he found me attractive. And that he was fascinated by me.” 

Edwin had not dared to look at Charles during any of this so far but now he was looking up into his best friend's and crush's face, directly into his eyes as he told him that another man found him attractive.

Charles' expression was open and Edwin felt himself relax his tight posture in relief.

“I had broken a rule of his and made him angry and still he was interested in me. That… that did something to me”, Edwin admitted shyly. 

“I believe it wasn't simply about a man openly telling me about his interest in me, but also about being desired despite having done wrong. I never imagined that second part of it to be possible, much less the first.”

Charles nodded his head with a little frown creasing his forehead, seemingly trying to follow Edwin's reasoning.

“Then he, he changed outfits”, Edwin gulped at the memory.

“In a puff of smoke he suddenly stood there, wearing a fur coat and only underpants underneath”, Edwin looked away, suddenly feeling awkward telling Charles about another man's near nakedness.

“That seems inappropriate”, Charles mumbled.

“I know, I'm not supposed to judge, I know you don't mind now, but honestly, just getting undressed in front of a stranger? That wouldn't be okay with anyone else”, he said, his frown now stronger than before.

“I agree”, Edwin admitted.

“It was unconventional. At that moment I was simply shocked. I could barely move or say anything. I just… I just looked at him.”

“And did you like what you saw?” Charles asked with an intense expression before his eyes widened and he shook his head.

“Shit, forget that. That was super wrong to ask.”

“It's quite alright”, Edwin mumbled, though his cheeks did still feel warm.

“I can’t say that… that it was an uncomely sight”, he answered stiffly.

“I admit, I kept thinking of the way he looked in that moment at later points in time. I was… I don't know if it was actual attraction. I am still not certain about that. I was undoubtedly fascinated by the way he presented himself so freely, without shame.”

Charles nodded.

“I hope you know now that there really is nothing shameful about that”, Charles squeezed his hand again and it made Edwin smile.

“I think… I think I am getting there”, he said quietly. He collected his thoughts and then continued with the retelling.

“The Cat King walked towards me and he, um, he got very close.”

Edwin knew before he had uttered the words that Charles wouldn't like that. And sure enough Charles raised his eyebrows in displeasure. Edwin tried to ignore this reaction to force himself to get out the next words.

“He whispered in my ear that I fascinated him and then he, I… I think my body anticipated him touching me, kissing me. And a part of me would have been okay with it”, Edwin breathed out. Suddenly he felt out of air, which, again, was only natural for a ghost but did not feel like it.

“Instead he put the bracelet on my wrist”, Edwin said and held up the wrist in question to inspect it with a forlorn expression.

“So he didn't do anything else? Didn't touch you inappropriately beyond that?” Charles asked and he looked less on edge than before.

“He did not. He emphasised on being a consensual Cat King and I believe him. He would not have touched me against my will.”

“Undressing in front of someone and whispering in their ear like that is kinda not consensual, mate”, Charles frowned again.

“I told you, Charles. It is alright”, Edwin smiled at him.

“He did propose that he and I find a way to make him happy”, Edwin stressed, “but he sensed that I was opposed to that, so he ordered me to count cats instead to get rid of the bracelet”, Edwin closed.

“And then I was sent back to you and Crystal.”

“That was it?” Charles asked, looking wary.

“For our first encounter, yes”, Edwin confirmed.

“To me only a few minutes passed. I still don't understand how he managed to manipulate time like that.”

Charles bit his lip for a moment before he blurted out: “would you tell me what else there was? When you met him again?”

Edwin fidgeted in his seat.

“Charles, I-”

“It's okay. You don't have to. I'm sorry”, Charles immediately backtracked.

“You already told me so much you didn't have to. I'm sorry for making you do this.”

Edwin skirted closer on the sofa, making them touch from hip to knee.

“You did not force me to do anything, Charles. I decided to trust you with this.”

“Well, I kinda did though”, Charles sighed.

“Kept bugging you until you told me, same way that Crystal's been doing with my dad ever since we got back to London”, he admitted.

“Oh. Is that why you two seem to not enjoy each other's company anymore?” Edwin asked in concern.

“It's not that bad, mate”, Charles chuckled but with a pointed look from Edwin he relented.

“Alright, yeah. We are kinda tense around each other lately. She wants me to talk about my dad and I don't want to. She won't back off though. It's been driving me crazy. So, uh, sorry for doing the same to you”, Charles scratched at his neck nervously.

“If it helps your case”, Edwin said slowly, “telling you about it just now has helped me feel a bit better.”

Charles looked at him incredulously.

“It is true”, Edwin nodded.

“I thought I would not enjoy talking about this delicate moment and it was rather uncomfortable. But sharing this with you has somehow made me feel lighter just now.”

“Ugh, Edwin”, Charles groaned and let his head fall back against the couch's backrest. 

“You can't say stupid, therapeutic shit like that and then expect me to ignore my pile of garbage in peace.”

Edwin chuckled despite himself and it made Charles look back at him.

“I don't expect anything from you”, Edwin clarified.

���I am simply deducting from my experience what could be a helpful suggestion to solve your situation.”

Charles laughed wholeheartedly.

“That was such a ‘you’ thing to say”, he grinned. It faded quickly.

“Listen. I am not as strong as you. I can’t-”

“You are putting yourself down again”, Edwin frowned.

“Do not do this.”

Charles sighed deeply.

“I'm just trying to say, I am not ready to dive into this shithole that was my childhood and dig around in it. It's… It's too much, you know?”

“And that is completely alright”, Edwin touched a hand to Charles’ still tense shoulders and squeezed. 

“You do not have to be ready now. This does not make you a weaker man though.”

“I don't know”, Charles said.

“There is just so much in me, so much that threatens to flow out any minute and I don't know how to get it under control. And I feel stupid for it because I need help to sort through this. Once again I need your help while you figured your stuff out by yourself.”

Edwin snorted, half annoyed.

“No. Charles. I haven't got everything figured out. There is still a lot I don't understand about myself. I merely started scratching at the surface, I'm afraid. And I could use help with this too. I just never learned to ask for it.”

Charles looked him in the eyes for a few seconds, then smiled a small, hopeful smile.

“I'd love to help you any way you need, mate.”

“The same goes for you”, Edwin smiled back. 

They sat there in silence for a bit longer before Charles launched himself at Edwin and hugged him close. After a second of shocked immovability, Edwin hugged him back and sank into the touch, resting his head on Charles’ shoulder. 

They stayed like this, pressed together tightly, for a while, when Edwin realised that Charles was shaking in his arms.

He pulled back to get a look at his face and sure enough, Charles was crying. This was unchartered territory. The only other time he had seen Charles cry was after he had pushed The Night Nurse into Angie's hungry mouth.

He had not been able to comfort him then but just now Charles had told him that he thought of Edwin as more than capable of calming people down. In his own way.

Edwin took Charles’ face in his hands and wiped away the tears on his cheeks.

“You are wonderful, Charles”, he whispered.

“You are a wonderful person and you will figure this all out.”

Charles sniffled, probably in disbelief but Edwin took it in stride.

“We've got literally forever to figure it all out, remember?” he smiled at his best friend and Charles looked back at him.

“We are no longer on the run. We are no longer hiding from Death. We've really got forever now. Together.”

“Together”, Charles croaked out and smiled. He put his forehead to Edwin's and they stayed that way until Charles had calmed down. With his best friend in his arms and his heart a bit lighter from talking things through, Edwin truly believed, for the first time, that everything would turn out alright.

I hope you all enjoyed this! Fell free to tell me what you think in comments and tags or over on ao3.