#tdp deep magic

[self-spaghettification]

All sightings of this symbol so far

Aaravos’s hood (season 2)

both end credits from s5. left appears to be a celestial elf. (5x04) right is 5x09

the book with the infantis sanguine spells. “It’s one of the old spells.” (5x09)

mirror breaking in the same pattern. (4x04) ( @raayllum post)

back side of the coins (5x01) (thank you @its-leethee !!)

this is the symbol for deep magic actually!

thank you! @ok12857

[random-fandom-ramble]

Do you think that Callum unlocking deep magic could cause him to invent a better magic system?

Ooooh, that’s a very interesting question.

So before I can answer this ask properly, I’ll explain what I think deep magic actually is.

A few years back I made a theory post detailing what I believe deep magic to actually be, and to summarise what I’d said there:

I think deep magic is the underlying core of all magic, the base component from which all other magic is then created, and which all primal sources have in common (like a common denominator of every primal magic spell). When you remove all the various attributes from the other sources (fire from sun, earth from…earth), then what you’re left with is “pure” magic. Aka deep magic.

What that aforementioned post also proposes is that if you could tap into that deep magic and control it, then you should technically be able to control every kind of primal magic to a certain extent (since deep magic is maybe contained in every form of magic).

This was my original theory as to how Aaravos seemingly mastered all six of the primal sources; he simply found a way to control deep magic. These days I don’t think I’d brush him off as „just“ a deep magic user rather than a master of all six sources, but I still think it might’ve played a part in that.

Now to your actual question @dragoncoreice :

Could Callum invent a better magic system using deep magic?

Here’s the thing;

The world of Xadia is built with and upon the six primal sources. Regardless of how they’re getting used, they are the basic building blocks of this reality. So they’re always going to exist in some way, and they aren’t going to be replaced, which I doubt would be even possible.

But I do think that this system of six primals can be improved.

One gripe that I’ve always had with magic (and elven societies for that matter) in the tdp universe is that it’s seemingly so segregated:

The sunfire elves only use sunfire tools, the moonshadow elves only live in villages in this one particular forest, and the ocean elves stay in the water. There seems to be very little exchange happening between the elves and even the dragons, with most of them keeping to their own people and communities, unless they have a practical reason to interact with another.

Similarly, there seems to be no blending of magic in Xadia: every magical item, spell or living being (save for Aaravos) is strictly tied to one primal source, and can only exude magic from that source. Yes, someone can cast magic from another source if it’s in the form of a magical stone/gem or plants, but even then, it’s technically the item doing the magic, not the person.

That is where I think deep magic could help.

If every primal source has the same base component, then it should be possible to combine or even blend different types of magic using that component [deep magic].

So instead of needing to rely on a tidebound elf or an ocean gem to perform a healing spell, a moonshadow elf could tap into deep magic and use that to then indirectly use a nearby water source to cast a healing spell. It may not be as good as from an ocean mage, but it could do the trick.

Or a sky mage could tap into deep magic and use it to sow fire magic into a lightning spell, and create whole new spells that are built from TWO different primal sources.

Once the merging of different types of magic is a thing, a whole world of new possibilities opens up and creates opportunities for new inventions and extraordinary new spells unlike anything that was seen before. And technically it would still be based on the six-primal-sources-system, but better.

So to put it shortly: no, I don’t think discovering deep magic could allow someone to invent a whole new magic system that replaces the old one. But I do think that it could greatly improve and enrich the current one.

Now, wether Callum is the one to unlock deep magic or not is left to be seen, but knowing how passionate he is about magic, he’s definitely going to get involved with it. Once he does get his hands on it, he’ll want to play with deep magic and see where he could go with it.

But considering how one of the shows most prevalent themes is about unity and teamwork, about how working towards a shared future and helping each other out is better than being alone, I wouldn’t be surprised if this revolution of magic didn’t come from Callum alone.

He might instigate it, yes, but I could really see him actually reaching out and teaching others how to tap into deep magic, so that anyone could go and invent new spells and magic; so that everyone has the chance to change the world.

~~~~~~

Thanks for reading✨

Feel free to reblog or comment with your own thoughts and ideas!

[elvesdragonsanddarkmagic]

[raayllum]

Gift Giving & Primal vs First Elves :: Or Going Off Into the Deep Lore Deep End

Remember that meta I compiled about Greek mythology, deceptive gift giving, and TDP? Yeah it's time to talk about the gift motif properly as well as some other deep lore things because these excellent thoughts ( @spicyviren, @kradogsrats, and @its-leethee) got the wheels in my brain spinning.

AKA an unknown amount of sectioned word vomit into the nature of magic, where it comes from, how deep magic operates, some gifts and motifs, and Leola, just a little.

Let's go.

Gift Motif

The gift motif is one that's a bit of a slowburn in TDP. While characters will often pass and hand over objects — tools, artefacts, metaphorical responsibilities or trust (handing over the egg, for example) — to one another, there's not a big emphasis on gifts in the first three seasons.

There are some, such as Callum's letter from Harrow (that he's given by Claudia once again initially as a goodbye), Ezran giving Bait to Barius in S3, and Rayla's family pendant, but most of these, as you've might already noticed, are contextualized within Goodbyes. Whether the gift motif will amount in arc 2 to escaping this "final gift" context remains to be seen, but that's how it tends to work in interpersonal relationships.

There is an element of peace offering in hoping that returning Zym — a gift and/or gesture of good will — will help usher in peace, but I think (as of now at least) that ties further into the series' theme of Reciprocal Exchange (the assassin mission being an eye for an eye vs olive branch for olive branch) than outright gift giving. (Although we will probably talk about Exchange and gift giving at some point because there is also a thematic tether there.)

However, there is one other thing that is more and more often referred to as a gift in Arc 1, and that's Magic. Specifically, dark magic.

Now, this actually isn't that dissimilar from what the Goodbye gifts amount to, either. In Harrow's letter, he gifts Callum the Key of Aaravos believing it to be a powerful magical relic of some kind; Rayla's pendant makes its way from Ethari to her to Callum, who then uses it for magical purposes; and Bait, as a glow toad, is connected to an arcanum himself.

I do think it's noteworthy though that in Arc 1, (dark) magic being a gift is emphasized upon, specifically because of these lines for Khessa:

Upon first watching it back in 2019, it made sense that dark magic would be referred to this way, even when I just thought maybe it was that humans had been given 'nothing,' as Claudia says. Dark magic is closely tied to ideas of theft and thievery — stealing magic from others to harness its power for yourself — and the series is deeply interested in concepts of ownership or who has 'true' ownership over something, in magic, a throne/crown, a price to pay, etc. This follows neatly into Arc 2 (for ex: why Karim seeking to steal the Sun Seed is a metaphorical dark path even if it didn't outright involve dark magic through Kim'Dael), which we'll build on later.

That said, given the depth of the knowledge at the Great Bookery that is open to Sunfire elves more than any other type of elf, and the information that Tales of Xadia and Ripples gives us...

While elves warned that if humans were meant to wield magic they would have been born with it, [Leola] gifted the wisest humans with secrets: the language of the dragons and the runes that shaped spells. With the unicorn’s gift, the most determined minds among the humans could finally harness primal magic.

It happened long ago, when humans had only just learned to hold fire in their hands without burning. They nurtured their precious primal flames secretly—in the dark of night, beneath shadows and shrouds—as cultivating its glow drew the eyes and ire of monsters [...] Humanity had been given something it was never meant to have. And so there came a calamity.

It makes it more than likely than, unlike other elves such as Lujanne or Ibis, Khessa had reason to believe/know that there used to be primal human mages in the past... and that it wasn't 'enough' for them ultimately, because they still hungered and developed (and were given?) dark magic. "Your kind could not be satisfied with what you were given" was about the rejection of primal magic from Leola (the unicorns) in favour of a darker kind that involves theft and "dirtying yourself" (5x08) with dark magic.

But at the same time, this complicates the Gift Giving motif of including not just dark magic, but being also for primal magic — for humans, at least.

And also for elves. (Ignoring how "great orb" is very similar to "great one" for now.)

Janai: It was a gift. But there's more to it than that. The great orb began as this. Karim: This is... a sun seed?

Now, the Great Orb being grown from a Sun 'literal' seed makes sense. We've known for a long time that in Xadia, "magic is everywhere. It's just part of the vibrance or spirit of things" (1x05). Primal magic naturally occurring in plants, animals, and elves likewise makes sense on that note. Just as not "many could bear the gruelling path of a rune mage," Karim cannot bear to have patience and faith in something that will only come to fruition centuries later.

That said, I raise the question: how functionally different is the Great Orb from say, a sun primal stone would hypothetically be? If primal stones and primal magic were gifts to humanity from unicorns — from creatures connected to the Star arcanum, for lack of a better understanding — then why not magic from Startouch (?) elves to other elves.

How do we know that all magic isn't simply a gift that was given once upon a time?

From the First Elves to the Primal Elves.

Primal vs First Elves

So what's the difference between First Elves and Primal elves?

Well we have a few pieces of lore:

1) Zubeia's status as a "heavenly majesty" (which we'll come back to in the next section) gives her authority to speak in the name of the first elves, who are effectively gods to humankind and/or Xadians ("Have our Gods died? / Where do the fabled Great Ones hide?" —the Epic of the Void

2) It seems that the First Elves are, as of now and for a while, exclusively in reference to what would otherwise be called Startouch elves, although the latter is seemingly a name that came later given Rayla's affirmation of "ancient legends". This is reaffirmed in Tales of Xadia's two lone mention of First Elves:

No group of elves presents a greater mystery than the Startouch elves. Sometimes called the First Elves, those bound to the Star primal are rumored to have made great marks on Xadia’s ancient history—but beyond story and legend, little real evidence is left to us today [...] Among the few extant records of Startouch elves are the Scrolls of the First Elves, now kept in the Great Bookery of Lux Aurea.

3) At a post-S2 con in 2019 (how's that for a far reach?) we got a timeline of the events of Xadia laid out for us. The description of the very first piece of history and era we know of goes as follows, with the Rise of Elarion happening 2000 years ago re: the Dragon Prince era ("The Return of Aaravos"):

The Era of the First elves is the first recorded era 5,000 years prior to the current era. Dragons and elves were not allied during this period. There were no distinct primal elves. This is an era before all that. Humans suffered during this period. 

—2019 con timeline

4) Justin and Aaron reaffirm this at the 2:30 ish minute mark of this video (a couple of months before even S3 was released) by reaffirming distinctly to Primal elves. Later (7:40-ish mark) we see this distinction reaffirmed again through the statement of, "The patterns have been that these primal based elves have grown cultures and civilizations that have become separate and differentiated from kind of whatever the early days were with the First elves were."

Okay, so there was 100% a time where there were only First Elves, and humans, and Primal elves as we knew them (maybe still with the hands and horns, but no arcanum? Or no singular, distinct arcanum) didn't exist. Why does this matter?

This is where the deep lore timeline gets tricky, as we don't know precisely when 1) humans received magic and 2) at what stage the First Elves / Great Ones / Startouch elves 'left' Xadia, only that they did, apparently, when Elarion (the human city) needed help: "Elarion, unworthy whelp / Wept as the stars turned black the sky / They donned their masks / They turned their backs / And left Elarion to die". Why abandon the city (beyond indifference/cruelty as Aaravos would likely claim), who knows.

However, we can assume the timeline looks something like this:

Era of the First Elves

Primal elves (and presumably archdragons *) are crafted / develop into being, whatever that means

Humans are magic-less and are having a bad time

Unicorns / Leola extend sympathy despite the fact that the First Elves tell her not to (Book One: Novelization / Tales of Xadia)

Humans have primal magic (Ripples / Tales of Xadia)

This attracts negative attention, consolidated in Elarion ("the stars she asked their light to cast / and stop the dragons’ fiery might" / "as cultivating its glow drew the eyes and ire of monsters. Eventually, for the audacity of their fire, they were hunted")

Elarion asks for help and the Stars leave

Aaravos, the last star — presumably already Fallen from the First Elves — gives them dark magic under the guise of protection even though it will inevitably help him (i.e. give him the ability to possess people)

Dark magic replaces primal magic as the primary form for humans

Tension and violence escalates (unicorns are hunted to near extinction). Sol Regem is removed as King of the Dragons

Under Dragon Queen Luna Tenebris, the daughter of an elven leader suggests the Judgement of the Half-Moon, causing for humans to be banished rather than eradicated, and the continent split in two

Again, nothing too crazy / not too much we haven't already known or guessed at for a while.

But like I said, I'm gonna propose two theories, so bear with me:

Theory #1: What is Deep Magic?

The First Elves engaged with what we're gonna call Deep or Old Magic, for lack of a better term. There can be an assumption at times that this magic would be more 'pure' or less 'diluted' than dark magic or even the primal magic we've seen on screen. However, I think that's less than likely. Dark magic is often times a bad path for good outcomes, and primal magic can be a 'good' magic for bad outcomes (the blood freezing spell, for example).

While dark magic is a more textually malevolent magic system and primal magic is more true neutral — able to be used as a tool and a source of connection for the user — I don't think this necessarily means that Deep Magic is inherently enlightening (we see with the Ocean arcanum and S5 that knowledge can be an immense burden) or that it's on the opposite end of the spectrum and is outright benevolent.

What, then, am I suggesting Deep Magic to be? Well, we have some clues likewise from the same old interview post-s2 that we haven't had much basis to (potentially) understand until now, in which it's stated:

Deeper magic and deeper gifts that the original beings received [...] practical, usable, powerful magic is drawn from the six primal sources, right? But there is this idea that there's this earlier, less differentiated power kind of magic that's deeper and more - I don't kind of want to say what all of them are. It's not that important now, it has more to do with the history of beings and their interactions with each other. But Aaravos cares about some of this stuff. The best I can say is that one of them's Power — but well, what does that mean?

The six primal sources — potentially just five (hence why only 5 gemstones seem to occur naturally in nature, and Star seemingly doesn't) — are all based around physical, somewhat tangible principles. Earth, Ocean, Sun (fire/light), Sky (wind/weather) are perhaps the most tangible, with only Moon dipping into something into something more metaphysical: illusions and questioning the nature of reality, the nature of death, etc. However, I'd argue that the Moon arcanum's emphasis on death still makes it something that is particularly important to creatures who are mortal (but more on that later).

What I am arguing for is then, therefore, that Deep Magic is magic drawn from Concepts and Ideas > tangible things found in nature or parts of other magical creatures.

Three concepts, to be exact: (translated dark magic screenshot from Cartoon Universe spells reversed).

Zubeia: He chose as his instruments those who had strong hearts and strong minds, but who had an insatiable thirst and fascination with magic (power).

Three quasar diamonds, three deep magic concepts. Heart, Mind, Power.

("To know something truly and deeply, you must know it with your head, hand, and heart. Mind, body, and spirit." / "She laid before me her scales, her blindfold, and her sword, and told me to choose.")

Now, I don't know if it's these three concepts exactly — I could Truth, or Justice, or something like that — or even if it's three. But given what little we know about Deep magic thus far and how much the series' likes its threes, I think that's the likeliest number and combination.

We've known for a while that there's something weird with the connection between dark magic, spells that use blood, and 'star' magic. We know it's unlikely that Aaravos being able to possess people who have used dark magic was just a happy accident discovered after humans started using it. We know that when Callum is offered the dark magic version of the cube in his dreams, the symbol is blood red: "You can have unlimited power." And that dark magic "became the key that unlocked a place of power for humans in Xadia" (Tales of Xadia).

So what if dark magic stems from the vein of Deep magic that's taken from the concept of Power? What if when Aaravos offered his pawns "unlimited" Power, or when Kpp'Ar accused Viren of (potentially using star magic) "making the same choice you always made: the one that gives you Power," they meant it?

Alternatively, this could mean that most other Startouch elves — their longevity, their indifference — comes from the vein of Mind and subsequent intellectual detachment? Enough intelligence and reason not to hunger for more (Power), but not enough compassion and empathy to sympathize with others (Heart).

And it would also tie into Leola being unique among her own kind for her heart taking pity on the humans, and giving them primal magic — perhaps in the vein of Heart, if we're keeping things consistent — and why love ("To know something truly and deeply [...] I love you with all of myself, and I always will" / "To love is simply to know this: the tides are true as the ocean is deep") has been consistently tied to Callum unlocking arcanums. The "Narrative of Strength (power)" vs "Narrative of Love" being even more literal than we thought.

This wouldn't be too out of line since Moon arcanum philosophy already borrows heavily from Plato's idea of the forms/reality (Plato's allegory of the cave, anyone?) and the forms basically mean "your imagined ideal of the object in your mind is going to be more perfect than any tangible, 'real' version of the object could ever be." That being applied to living beings who are literally in the sky would track a certain amount, in addition to the idea that however primal magic is set up in Xadia right is "the whole world is like a giant primal stone; sky magic is all around us, and it's also in me, with every breath we take." But I digress.

With the distinction of Deep Magic as 1) separate and a sea that flows into the primal as well as 2) older and earlier than primal magic, now onto the next theory:

Theory #2: First elves and the Archdragons?

Now admittedly this one is more speculative since beyond knowing 1) the First elves = what we'd call Startouch elves, 2) the rest of them except Aaravos 'left' Xadia a while ago, and 3) the aforementioned possible 'Mind' deep magic thing, we very quickly run out of set knowledge into full blown speculation. Beyond

With that in mind, I wanna talk about the... weirdness, I suppose, between the Archdragons / draconic royal family and the First Elves.

There's a few notes to this: we know that Ancient Draconic is the language of primal magic, indicating that dragons existed and presumably had primal magic before elves did, and that elves had to be given that linguistic knowledge at least to a certain degree.

Then we also have the way Zubeia is referred to being mirrored with the way she describes Aaravos later:

Likewise, the one person/creature we've seen referred to as a god outside the Epic of the Void poem is Avizandum by Harrow (bonus points for the game motif of "entire armies have fallen like toys" because of him):

Bloodmoon Huntress also asserts that from an elven point of view (or at least Lain and Tiadrin, and presumably Runaan, too) that "Dragons are the lifeblood, the very core of Xadia" and generally assumed that dragons have the most powerful connection to their individual primal sources.

So I'd be willing to wager (esp since Sol Regem is at least 1,2000+ years old) that Archdragons at least once upon a time had been contemporaries of the First Elves if not peers. What and why that connection exists and how relevant it is for today, I don't know, but I do think there's something there, especially since the one example we have of a First Elf-Dragon relationship in Aaravos, Avizandum, and Zubeia, was perceived to be positive somewhat on all sides — a matter of trust on his end (in order to be "betrayed") and a matter of reverence and importance on theirs; "admired and loved by all" / "you meant something to him".

There is also something to be said for the Archdragons being the most powerful embodiment of the primal sources (alongside maybe some rare and noteworthy elves, like Queen Aditi) still being "unable to risk a direct confrontation" with only one singular and Fallen Startouch elf. What would a whole slew of them at the height of their power look like? (And yet it is implied that the Nova Blade is "ivory draconic" so... maybe you just have to get a First Elf close enough to the mouth to be consumed / bitten? Or perhaps the Nova Blade is made from the tooth/claw of a 'Star' arcanum dragon.)

TLDR; it's looking more and more like Startouch elves as we understand them and First Elves in generally are — while emotive and feeling the way humans and elves are — something very different from anything else we've seen thus far in terms of knowledge and power skill, and that distinction is only going to be made more and more apparent as the story goes on.

Theory #3: Where do we go from here?

So if Deep Magic is distinct from Primal, and is distinct from 2/3 kinds of Deep Magic in dark magic (derived from 5-primal and Power deep magic thoughts)... where do we go from here, magically speaking?

Well, the important thing to note is that the story has given us some thematic clues. Aaravos is concerned with exile and power, both things we see thematically most represented by human characters (with some elven exceptions like Karim and Kim'Dael). The other Star touch elves are very on brand for "Xadian exile" as their favourite punishment as well as extreme isolationism ("I knew I had to be strong alone" etc). Therefore, whatever answer we give Magically also has to reconcile these issues from a thematic and character based standpoint.

It seems like a switch of where people are concentrating energy — for Startouch elves and humans — needs to have a drastic shift to one of the other veins/concepts of deep magic that will hopefully heal the rifts. If Aaravos is Power (humans) and the others are 'Mind' (Xadian indifference/isolation and banishment) for lack of a better idea, then subverting that binary and shifting more to a third 'Love' path seems to be very on brand for TDP. Holding both at the same time but being guided by a higher principle of peace and harm reduction is what Ezran's 4x03 speech is all about, after all.

Something something both Xadia and magic and the First Elves being reunited with Xadia / humanity and elvenkind as TDP's endgame, something something.

Other Gift Giving Thoughts

The other thing I wanna talk about now that everything else is laid out is how gifts are Given, in TDP. We see time and time again relationships and magic systems being framed on the idea of whether they are giving, taking, both in a bad way or in a good way. There seems to be two main indicators for gift giving, therefore, either that in the receiver is worthy, or that the exchange is going to be reciprocal.

At its best, a gift works as intended.

Humans (and elves?) are given primal magic and generally use it for exploration and to care for themselves / one another The sun seed is given to the Sunfire elves, but they must nurture it. Callum gives Rayla her father's bow and she uses it to protect them. Callum achieves enlightenment and understanding of him and is rewarded with primal magic twice, even if the Ocean in particular is a bit murkier than he'd probably like. Gifts and belongings are relinquished or restored for freedom, for hope, for peace.

Here we have to wonder if Leola's Last Wish reconciles both the Goodbye gift motif and the gift of Magic motif, possibly resulting in the gift of the sun seed or more likely something to do with primal magic / alleviate the fallout of dark magic's consequences.

For example, to get an answer from Rex Igneous — a seeming wealth of knowledge — you have to give him a worthy gift that is also a sacrifice of some kind, according to Nath'an.

However, Ezran points out the major flaw in this line of thinking, as "We offered gifts that meant a lot to us, but the truth is, they don't mean anything to you." Not everyone is going to value the same thing or think the same thing is worth the price that was paid.

We see this interpersonally most with the mage fam ("Maybe the world would be better off without magic" from Soren, whose life was saved with it) and with Rayla and Callum (as Rayla's gift of sacrifice by leaving is something Callum did not want and rightfully did not receive well, alongside her moonstone pendant). Again: what is defined as worthy, or worthiness, is in the eye of the beholder.

Just like one of the initial thoughts that inspired this meta, Khessa asserts that dark magic is a magic that "takes" > being reciprocal for both parties, nevermind a gift. The irony, however, runs a bit deeper, as Aaravos thinks the same of his fellow stars:

But the stars kept from them one secret still: that their first lesson—patience—was not a gift of the stars at all. You see, patience is a lesson the humans taught themselves. No, the stars do not know patience, for they have no need for it. The stars want for nothing, and take all to their liking.

And we see this idea of a 'false gift' show up time and time again in the series. Nyx pretends to offer passage but actually wants to steal Zym; Rayla's act of love in leaving is a curse upon Callum's heart and wellbeing; dark magic itself is a false trade of sorts, given how unevenly it tips scales in Aaravos' favour and how much it ruins both the environment and body of its caster.

[The elven thief Lasair] never saw the precious blossoms fade and turn to cold ashes when exposed to the dawn. They never learned their gift was perceived as a curse, not a trade. 

—Tales of Xadia

Kim'Dael goes to Queen Aditi under false pretences ("The Queen's Mercy") but the gift that Aditi gives her is nothing good at all:

What pretty bauble, she wondered, had she tricked the queen into forging as a token of protection? What could be powerful enough to ward away the wrath of dragons?

Just as humans sought the stars' help to protect them from the ire of the dragons, Kim'Dael sought Aditi's. And just as Aaravos offered them a false magic that would protect and ultimately trap/destroy then, so does Aditi, with magic that doesn't seem to be entirely dark or primal:

“But know this: the binding around your neck—it is made with magic not unlike your own. It is a magic that demands, that takes."

A form of magic even maybe that demands sacrifice for that kind of Power.

You could almost say it's something Deeper.

Conclusion

Hope you enjoyed going completely off the rails with me, and that this long (winded) post got you thinking! I'll probably do a followup discussing the implications of what we have here for potential Laurelion-Aaravos later. In the meantime, take the fruits of my labour, and spin your own hamster wheels if you'd like.

[stuck-in-jelly]

Obsessed with how Claudia and Soren view magic.

Claudia views magic as something amazing and special, even dark magic despite having to ‘harvest’ from living creatures in order to use it. Because in the end how could something that helps her friends and family be bad? How could something that saved an entire kingdom from starvation be evil?

Soren meanwhile doesn’t care about dark magic vs primal magic. In his eyes Dark magic can be used for immense good just as much as Primal magic can be used for horrific evils. At the end of the day all magic has ever done is divide people and cause years of suffering.

But they are both such hypocrites (affectionate).

Claudia views dark magic as a gift, something to take pride in having. But when she is finally broken down she reflects back she feels disgusted at herself for viewing living creatures as parts. Then when pushed into a dangerous situation she cried out “Don’t make me! Don’t make me do dark magic!”

Soren believes the world would be better without magic at all. Yet he turned to it, he looked his father in his eyes and said “You have your other way! Dark magic.” Not caring that Viren explained the original spell was a primal spell and the new spell would require a terrible sacrifice.

[theredhairedmonkey]

The fact that in arc 1 Callum learned the Sky by realizing there are infinite heights he can go…

And the fact that in arc 2 Callum learned Ocean by accepting there are also infinite depths…

Right before the season about Stars, built around the cosmos, a phenomenon centered on infinite heights and depths…

All I know is, we’re gonna get fed next season 😊

[amber-in-the-rough]

and yeah, now we know what the s6 poem meant by "eight in a line". It still could mean those stars from the opening but it's much more likely those multicoloured staffs.

maybeee like i said before, they represent 6 primal sources + dark magic + deep magic.

or, i would still take it if it turns out to be 8 types of deep magic staffs. after all, we DO know there are more than one. there's Power, there could be Love and some more. after all, Callum's spellbook mentions it also more than once - that Love Is Magic :3

.

u can definitely say that im very happy rn

[luniviravosshipper]

I don’t know if anyone else pointed this out yet, so I’m just going to put it out there to consider.

In the background of the title card we see 7 stars falling.

And, although I could have counted incorrectly since the image isn’t the clearest, there appears to be 7 spirit like beings in the background of the new season 6 poster. Not to mention, but they also seem to be rising in juxtaposition to the stars falling in the title card.

I have a feeling that these two images are showing the same people.

Interestingly enough though, the people that are possibly represented in the title card are represented as stars. However, as many other people have made note of when the poster was released, none of the people shown in the poster have horns or star like markings that could indicate they were Startouch elves or creatures. At least, not any of the ones we’ve already seen, like Aaravos, Leola, or the Merciful One. And that includes the person portrayed at the bottom of the poster.

It’s hard to tell if they’re really humans either though, mainly because of the coloring and blurriness of the image. So who’s to say that they’re not Startouch beings?

Anyways, I think whatever the case is, they seem to have some significance to Aaravos and are maybe even related to his goals in the show. Maybe they’re other fallen Startouch elves that Aaravos is planning to in some way save? Or maybe they’re actually dead and he was reviving or releasing their souls in some way in the poster? Or maybe they mean something else to him entirely?

[kilfeur]

Mon avis sur la magie profonde c'est qu'il est l'origine de la magie primale et de la magie noire. Dans la scène où Viren la retrouve, il croit qu'Aaravos a menti. Mais Claudia a utilisé le sort d'Infantis Sanguine sacrifiant Monsieur Bavetout mais aussi le sceptre de Viren. Ce sont des ingrédients pour le sort d'Infantis Sanguine. En revanche la scène de l'exécution de Leola me fait demander si c'est vraiment un sort des étoiles ou bien un sort de magie profonde.

Car cette lumière, ça vient à l'intérieur d'elle, est ce qu'ils ont utilisé sa connexion l'arcanum des étoiles pour la tuer ? Ou bien en utilisant un sort de magie profonde pour commettre son exécution ? Donc les elfes des étoiles auraient utilisé la magie profonde pour créer la magie primale mais qu'après Aaravos aurait utilisé la magie profonde pour créer la magie noire.

My opinion of deep magic is that it is the origin of primal and dark magic. In the scene where Viren finds her, he believes Aaravos lied. But Claudia has used the Infantis Sanguine spell, sacrificing both Sir Sparklepuff and Viren's scepter. These are ingredients for the Infantis Sanguine spell. On the other hand, the scene of Leola's execution makes me wonder whether it's really a star spell or a deep magic spell.

Because this light, it comes from inside her, did they use her connection the arcanum of the stars to kill her? Or did they use a deep magic spell to commit her execution? So the startouch elves would have used deep magic to create primal magic, but then Aaravos would have used deep magic to create dark magic.

[kradogsrats]

OKAY so "Infantis Sanguine" is almost definitely a spell, and it matches the primal/corrupted primal rune casting format, that being "two words of questionable Latin"

I do not actually know any Latin AT ALL, particularly not grammar (and not even to mention that primal rune spells are not real, grammatical Latin), but "infantis" appears to be the genitive case, so what we have here is something along the lines of "child's blood," or possibly a variant meaning from "infans" like "fresh blood."

"Sanguine" is an English word by way of French, derived from Latin "sanguineus" which is again genitive case, so stretching things a bit it could also be "child of blood"/"bloody chlid"? The English "sanguine" (by way of, uh... the ancient medical theory of humors) also means "cheerful" or "optimistic" and I doubt they're unaware of that connotation.

Kim'dael did not use runes or spells for her blood powers in TTM, so unless they're going to dramatically alter that, this seems like a very Claudia thing. But is it her blood or her using someone else's? 👀

[beautifulterriblequeen]

What did the newly revealed season 5 reveal about deep magic? Is deep magic blood magic?

Hi hi, yeah, it seems to be something like that.

It's not lost on me that the symbol illustration in Aaravos's text is blood red.

Neat! So normal.

[self-spaghettification]

Did the show reveal what deep magic is?

not yet

[1lovepeace]

What is deep magic and is it connected to love? Is it the opposite of dark magic?

I don't know too much about it, but I would imagine that it's very different from dark magic. Could possibly be the opposite.

[elvesdragonsanddarkmagic]

Can't get to finish Claudia's necklace before season 6. Sad :(

[raayllum]

IMAGE ID: wordswdragons: like aaravos was either laurelion or he killed laurelion i feel it in my bell aaron ehasz: The dragon scale amulet that Claudia stole from the storm spire connects to Laurelion

So many questions

[thethiefandtheairbender]

as a lifelong ATLA fan who narrowly had ATLA dethroned as my top show by The Dragon Prince steadily over the past 5 years, the similarities between the two have very little to do with the surface level parallels that get regularly drawn between them.

Like ATLA, TDP has Books for seasons and chapters for episodes, but unlike ATLA, which only touched on storytelling sparingly as a theme, TDP is obsessed with interrogating storytelling and history and the presence of unreliable, biased narrators throughout many of its episodes (most notably 2x05, 2x06, 3x06, 4x04, and 4x07 among them). Half of what you learn in the 1x01 intro ends up being a lie once you reach S3, with more being steadily deciphered.

Yes, TDP has different magics with people living under those umbrella terms... for the elves. Humans are coming culturally at things from a completely different angle, and the elves' connection to their primal sources are discussed philosophically in detail, informing their practices and their culture first hand, including the way they chafe against humans, who are arcanum-less. Many animals in the world are also connected to magic, which influences both their design and which ones get hunted for humans' more 'clever' solution in dark magic, including each other.

The core issue of the Puppetmaster, down to being a coercive magic formed by someone deeply resentful of their imprisonment? Said puppetmaster is the main endgame antagonist of the entire show with all of S4 onwards being exploring the ethics of controlling people against their will in various methods, and the entire show itself being a thematic battleground of fate (imprisonment) vs free will for virtually every single character.

Where ATLA mostly concerns itself timeline wise with ending the war, very little thought is shown by any of the characters as to what they'll do after the war. This isn't a problem (as it reflects the sheer domineering scope of the conflict) but even Zuko being firelord is only ever really addressed with 2.5 episodes left till the finale. TDP, meanwhile, ends its 'war' in s3 and s4 opens up with dealing with the old wounds festering between people with centuries of history, the struggles that come when people aren't able to let go and believe they're safe or mourn in a healthy manner, and the religious/cultural clashes that may occur when trying to integrate different groups of people.

TDP also has an evil father with a devoted daughter and a brother who eventually defects, but it explores the reality of an abusive parent who loves/will sacrifice for you and your right to leave regardless, even if that means leaving the sibling you truly deeply love and who loves you in turn. Which means that when you and your sibling are on opposite sides of a deep ideological conflict, it actually really fucking hurts bc we've seen first hand just how much they love each other and also how and why everything fell apart not in spite of that love necessarily, but also because of it.

Is this to say that TDP is a 1:1 with ATLA or that it's better? No, not at all, and the latter is subjective. I prefer TDP, but I think they're about on equal ground when you look at each show currently as a whole (although TDP has two seasons left to go).

But TDP takes a lot of what ATLA was doing thematically with some of its most interesting beats and then builds or expands upon them further. It talks further and more consistently about the cycles of violence; in many ways, Jack De Sena's character, Callum, begins the series largely where Sokka had ended (and he's not the most like Sokka anyway; very much his own thing); we get Faustian bargains and centuries' long grief and fucked up people who are trying both succeeding and failing at not doing fucked up things. There are antagonists, but it is very hard to actually label anyone at this point a straight up villain. Moral greyness is where the show starts, and it just continues from there.

That's not to say the show is nothing but dark and depressing - like ATLA, there's a steady thread of hope and humour even as the show gets steadily closer and closer to its 11th hour point - but the show is usually emotionally heavier. There's more blood and potentially disturbing imagery with body horror and on screen death. There's so much foreshadowing you basically can't go more than 5 minutes into any episode without having something that's going to come back around or be referenced again like 3-5 seasons later.

Just to be clear - TDP is like ATLA, but it's like ATLA in interesting ways beyond the more shallow surface level that usually gets attributed to it, while still very much being its own show and its own thing. And that is why I tend to recommend it to people who like ATLA.

Thank you and goodnight

(Also, the fandom doesn't have any ship wars, and the show is queer as fuck)