#the THING is: cersei is NOT considered an easy person to love. by the fandom or by the text itself. and STILL. /STILL/!!!!

[musical-chick-13]

Thinking about Jaime and Cersei again, and TRULY no one is doing it like them. Their relationship caused a country-wide succession crisis! His response to someone calling her "a monster" was "To you, maybe"!! She told him about her childhood fears regarding a prophecy she heard as a kid, and instead of calling her '''''crazy''''' or overdramatic, he hugged her and told her they wouldn't be beholden to it!!!! She's impulsive af and STILL prevented him from going on a suicide mission because, "Without you, all of this is for nothing."

"Fuck fate, fuck prophecy, fuck anyone who isn't us." "My brother [hated throughout the country for breaking his oath and killing a "rightful" king] is worth a thousand of your friend." "People will whisper, they'll make their jokes, let them. They're so small I can't even see them." SHE TOLD THEIR DAD ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP AS A POWER MOVE. JAIME PROMISED TO SLAUGHTER AN ENTIRE BLOODLINE IF IT MEANT BEING ABLE TO GO HOME TO CERSEI. "HOW SHOULD WE TREAT PEOPLE WHO TEAR US APART" "WE SHOULD TREAT THEM WITHOUT MERCY AND WE WILL"!!!!!!!!!

"UNTIL YOU AND I ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE LEFT IN THIS WORLD" HELLO???!?!?!? HELLO??!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!!!!!?!???!?!???!!!

"YOU ALWAYS KNEW EXACTLY WHAT SHE WAS AND YOU LOVED HER ANYWAY"

[hello-nichya-here]

https://www.tumblr.com/mostly-mundane-atla/710894569738387456/this-sounds-pretty-accurate-but-there-is-another what do u think ??

Okay, here are the bits I agree with:

1 - Some Azula fans are trying way too damn hard to make her a "Girlboss" that never did anything wrong. This is legitimatelly something I have seen happen A LOT lately and it gets on my nerves SO BAD.

2 - Some Azula fans focus a just a little bit too much on the sad aspects of her character/story, mainly her loneliness and how she felt nobody loved her (Note: I'm being generous here because most of the time people bring that to remind me people that, no, just because she was the favorite child of an ABUSIVE parent it doesn't mean that her life was easy, but I HAVE seen the "character sad, therefore character good" a few times).

The stuff that I don't agree with it AT ALL:

1 - "Cersei Lannister is a character that is like Azula." No. Just no. I know the fandom likes to joke about some simmilarities between both shows or borrow elements from that story to our fanfics, but Avatar is not Game Of Thrones, and Azula is not Cersei. Their personalities are not that simmilar, nor their family situations. Cersei is far more reckless, blood thirsty, downright vile ADULT WOMAN, she never got a single shred of respect from her father or ANYONE, and her main way of manipulating people is to go the Femme Fatale route and seduce them. Not at all like the pragmatic (but not sadistic), prodigious, awkward princess that can't flirt to save her life and that everyone respects/fears. Even the whole "When you play the Game Of Thrones, you win or you die" doesn't really apply because Cersei sacrificed nearly everything to remain the queen, while Azula literally brought Zuko back home, making him the heir to the throne again. They. Are. Not. The. Same. (I won't get into the other characters mentioned because I don't know who they are)

2 - "Azula isn't that well written" Unless we're considering the comics, in which EVERYONE was poorly written, I'm gonna die on the hill that this is just wrong. Azula was not redeemed, yes, and Bryke seems to not understand her, but the way her story and arc went in the show makes perfect logical sense to me - I just don't think that's where or how it should end. We can argue over whether her story is finished, not on if she's well-written character and a deliberately sympathetic villain that was also REALLY good at being a villain.

3 - "Azula doesn't have a lot going on" Bullshit. Regardless of redemption or not, Azula IS a complex character - yes, even if she is the villain of a Nickelodeon cartoon (WEIRD argument to claim she can't be that deep - this is literally a show about war, genocide and abusive families, which is why it stood out to people because NOBODY expected Nick to go there). We literally see her having a mental breakdown after years of abuse, indoctrination and VERY bad decisions that ruined every relationship she had finally caught up with her. I consider this a lot, just like I consider things like waking up one day and finding out EVERYONE you knew and loved has been gone for a hundred years or dealing with the fact your father is an abusive piece of shit that is totally okay with disfiguring and banishing you because you dared to speak out of turn. For fuck's sake, the existence of The Beach as an episode proves this claim wrong because the whole point of that episode is "These villainous Fire Nation teens have some hidden depths."

4 - "There are better stories with better/more complex characters" Again, weird argument. I think Beauty And The Beast is the best Disney movie and that Mulan is the best disney princess, but I still adore Snow White despite her story being VERY simple. And even though I like these stories that all have endings, I like the dark fantasy and heavy on politics story of Game Of Thrones - and even though I think the books are better, I still like the first half of the show despite the changes made to the story. This is not a "Either this or that" situation. You can think something isn't perfect or deep and STILL like it.

5 - "She's not a real person, she's a character on a show therefore her not needing to 'deserve' redemption is irrevelant because what matters is what benefits the story and Azula's redemption wouldn't do that" Really? You're pulling that shit? In a show like ATLA? The show that said "Everyone is capable of great good and great evil"? The show that repeatedly says "Friendship and kindness are going to save the day?"? The show that had one of the bad guys redeem himself by befriending the good guys and visiting his abusive father in jail and saying "Maybe this will make you have a change of heart?" THIS show would not benefit or stay consistent to it's themes if the villain that desperately craves love and validation learned that the way she tried to get these things was wrong and started being a better person who'd eventually be healthy, loved and accepted? Give me a break.

[saltywinteradult]

don’t you know he’s HotD’s Robb/Jon?

On a serious note though where did this even start? I’ve seen Black stans parallel Baela/Rhaena to Arya/Sansa which I can see on a very superficial level but Jace with Robb/Jon??? That’s just pushing it.

What are we meant to parallel exactly? If anything Jace and Luke and have more in common with Joffrey, but Blacks aren’t ready for that conversation lol.

I mean, I'm probably not the right person to ask, because I don't get it either. Jace has the same hair colour as Robb and book!Jon, I guess? And he's the son of the ostensible "hero" of the story so he must be a good person, right? I think the core of this is that Team Black stans are obviously extremely invested in the notion of Rhaenyra as a Perfect Feminist Girlboss Kween and don't want to acknowledge anything that contradicts that, like the fact that she canonically raised her sons to be assholes.

Furthermore, Jace has so few recognisable character traits that it's very easy to project whatever personality you want him to have. Fandoms in general have a long tradition of latching onto (typically) male characters who either have almost no memorable character traits (Jace) or who are actively terrible (Daemon) and projecting whatever bullshit they want onto them, often in a way that glorifies the character in spite of their canon negative traits. The HotD fandom is certainly carrying on this tradition very successfully.

I don't want to make it sound like it's always bad to extrapolate from limited screentime/pagetime and fill in the blanks with a character. I do it too! That's just what fandoms do. But it has to be approached delicately and with the understanding that what you project onto a character is your interpretation, not a canon fact, and this becomes more and more important the less evidence there is in canon to support your fanon. And this is especially important if canon is subject to change because the story is not complete yet. Team Black generally fails spectacularly at understanding this.

And yes, not only do Jace and Luke have some parallels with Joffrey, Rhaenyra certainly has a lot of parallels with Cersei. (As does Alicent, at least in the book, but that's another matter. And for the record I don't consider that a bad thing for either of them because who doesn't love Cersei?) But as you say, TB are not ready to have that conversation.

[alicentflorent]

One thing I can’t understand about some asoiaf fans is that they love lyanna and hate sansa despite the similarities in their stories. What is harder to understand is that they hate Sansa for things that also apply to lyanna. They hate Sansa for falling for Prince Joffrey, who manipulated her, and for going to Cersei because she didn’t want to leave kingslanding which some people say contributed to the death of her father and the stark men which then caused a war but lyanna fell in love with Prince Rhaegar, who manipulated her and ran away with him because she didn’t want to marry Robert which you could say contributed to the deaths of her father and brother which then caused a war. Both girls were kept prisoner while their brothers and people fought in war against a “mad king” but only one often gets blamed for her predicament and apparently “deserves” the abuse and imprisonment she receives because she was manipulated as a child and mistakingly put her trust and faith in the wrong people. I bet that if GRRM went with the original outline for Sansa’s story, where she chooses the Prince over her family, regrets it and dies birthing his child (which parallels lyanna even more!) the hatred would just increase and she’d never be considered a tragic story by fans and looked back on with only love and fondness by her loved ones like lyanna was. Her death would be celebrated by the fandom and because she “had it coming” and “deserved everything she got”.

The Sansa/Lyanna parallels are interesting to analyse because of how differently they are perceived. I’ve seen lyanna branded as a strong woman by the same people who call Sansa weak even after surviving all that she survived. Both girls deserve empathy and the fandom should acknowledge that they were both groomed as children/teens by a westerosi celebrity but seeing Lyanna fans praise and defend her whilst hating Sansa for the same things, despite the fact that we have witnessed Sansa’s character development, is so frustrating and hypocritical. I would love to see them explain they view the characters stories so differently.

The only reasons I can think of is that they see Lyanna as part of their faves, She’s Jon’s mother and basically arya 1.0 in looks and personality and they consider Sansa to be “the enemy of their faves” or they romanticise lyanna (and maybe even her “relationship” with rhaegar) because she died young and they view her as martyr not a complex human being, the same way that people in the story (Ned, Robert etc) do whereas we are seeing Sansa’s story and flaws play out in the books and she’s still here she survived and survivors arent as easy to romanticise.

[esther-dot]

Thanks for the reply! It's just if Sansa is shallow to like good looking people then most of the characters in books are shallow. Sansa loves the courtly romance and wanted ideal life. It isn't wrong to expect that. It wasn't her fault that joffery was a monster, that tyrells were fake and only using her, that Harry was arse. Also she didn't hold power in any relationship. Let's pretend if she is shallow, even then she didn't commit crimes for her to learn lessons.

(Continuation of this convo)

Thank you for sending such a thoughtful comment! It’s so easy to allow the false premise that the rest of the fandom works with regarding Sansa to filter in, so going back and looking at scenes/quotes and reminding myself of what really was going on is helpful.

There are a lot of important things that the fandom conveniently ignores when they’re trying to paint Sansa as shallow. I know there is no convincing them that Sansa isn’t evil/bad/wrong to be daydreamy, but if they’d just take a moment and consider Sansa’s reaction to Joffrey, and Cersei’s girlish hopes of marrying Rhaegar, and Dany’s desire for love, it might occur to them that in a world in which women are nothing but the avenue people walk over to get what they want (an alliance, castle, heirs…) all women can do is dream that there will be love? Hope the person they must marry will care about them? Are they truly trying to argue that hope is wrong, not the way women are used?

Also, everyone in the story comments on appearance, and even if the fandom thinks Sansa cares more -too much- about it, Sansa is a victim of the societal preoccupation with it. To some extent, Sansa has internalized the idea that her beauty is her value and that isn’t an isolated “she is way more shallow than the next person” but because she is a product of a sexist system that values women as what they offer a man, not who they are. Someone tells her she’s beautiful and antis point to her acknowledgment that it’s true as evidence that she’s shallow/vain, but the next line is about how Willas might forget Winterfell and love her. Women are not merely pitted against women here, Sansa (means of procuring Winterfell) is pitted against Sansa (a woman who wants to be valued as an individual) and thus far, the thing she has been told over and over that she is, is beautiful. It’s impossible for me not to sympathize with her hope that her beauty will finally bring her love, and not be horrified that instead, it only brings more molestation.

The fandom’s belief that the point is how bad Sansa is makes them ignore far more interesting (and important!) things.

[sybilmarlowe]

Since I joined the One Piece fandom, I was asked different times which character I ship with Doffy the most. Given I'm usually into self insert things, I'd firstly go with "my OC, of course 😛"... But let's talk about what I think of Doffy's most famous ships 😁

DISCLAIMER: all of what follows is TOTALLY my own opinion, don't want to judge anyone who thinks differently than me. OP is a fictional world made of fictional characters and anyone can ship whoever they likes!

So, here's the ships:

Doffy x Viola

Ok, let's start with what many people's don't want to hear: this ship is canon. Yeah. Like it or not, it's a matter of fact.

I honestly like them together, they're a weird couple but somehow they work. I like to imagine how could have been the dynamic between the two of them, and I'm more than sure there was nothing abusive from Doffy's side. I mean, sexually at least. I agree with the fact destroying one's whole life and Country is pretty abusive, but I'm quite sure the feelings between Doffy and Viola have been real for a while. Maybe the concept could sound trivial, but no one chooses who to love and Doffy has many characteristics which may definitely make a person fall for him. Not totally sure HE has ever truly loved her, but I like to think so. After all he does have a weak side and Viola might have been one of the few (even thanks to her powers) who managed to see it and knowing him deeply. This surely strenghtened their bond and it might have finally resulted in love...

My vote is a 8/10

Doffy x Cora

This is incest. I know. And it's indeed problematic and controversial. Irl a thing like this isn't exactly acceptable.

BUT as I told before, OP is pure fiction, so... I have to say quite like them tbh. In my opinion, as long as a relationship is adult and consensual there's nothing deeply wrong in it IN FICTIONAL WORLDS. (I know, there are fanfictions in which their relationship is abusive, but since we’re talking about headcanons here I like to think it’s not). Have you watcher GoT? Cersei and Jamie were one of the best written pairings in the whole series, the same goes for this situation imo, we have all the conditions to make this ship a sensible one.

They’re a realistic couple cause they went through a lot of difficulties together and, even if they chose different paths of life, their bond is very very deep. Their love is a desperate one, like “you’re the only one in this world I can REALLY trust”. This from both sides. The difference is that Cora is a pure person who just want to love and being loved while Doffy... well, he’s not exactly mentally healthy and he’s like “all or nothing”.

A lot of angst and stuff, of course, for this reason my vote is 7/10

Doffy x Crocodile

I’m sure someone out there is going to want my head for what I’m about to write, the DoffyxCroco fandom is huge after all... but... 

I don’t like this ship at all. 

Given one can ship two people with no reason or just because they wear matching colours and look good in fanarts (?) imo DoffyxCrocodile has no sense. They interact, yeah, but nothing about their dialogues or shared scenes makes me thing they could be a good couple. Even that most famous encounter at Marineford which made fanpeople scream... They looked just like contenders who quite disliked eachother, nothing less and nothing more :/ and Doffy saying “I’m jelous!” just gave me the same vibes of a childish sacrastic way to piss off a person, pretty much like the stupid classic “you fight like a girl!”. 

They’re aesthetically beautiful, nothing to say, they’re both among the most handsome characters in OP  and have a similar story, so I’m not saying I don’t understand the reasons of those who ship them... Just... I want ships to be stronger and more credible than this :/

6/10 just because they look good in fanarts XD

Doffy x Luffy 

This is pretty diffused, but..... why. 

I mean... what happened between the two of them which could have made them fall for eachother?? D: Have you ever tried to date a person after trying GearFourthPunch them out of the troposphere? °A° (Also, Luffy could LITERALLY be Doffy’s son. This is weird. Not the weirdest thing, but still.)

Srsly... If you like them together I ask you to tell me which dynamics are there behind this ship. Cause I really can’t see WHERE do you see even a little trace of feelings between the two of them D: 

Sorry D:

3/10 

Doffy x Law

Gods, yes. YES.

This ship HELLA works from every single point of view. Doffy and Law are two of the most (if not THE MOST) well written characters in the whole series. They have a complete and complex background, a deep and multifaceted personality and, above all, an extremely strong bond. 

Ship them or not, they’re literally OBSESSED by eachother for different reasons.

 Law is the ONLY man Doffy considers almost his equal, he thinks he’s like the only person worth being his right hand man and I’m quite sure he’s galvanized by the idea Law is the one who’s gonna sacrifice his life to make him immortal. Like... a great life to complete an even greater one? This is insane. And yet beautiful. 

On the other hand, Law’s thoughts have been completely centred on taking revenge on Doffy for 10 years. Like, he was literally obsessed by that man, consumed by the hate he felt for him which obscured anything else, even his maniacal good sense in the end. 

Turning this all into a tragic and tormented love story is as easy as drinking water. A long-term reciprocal hate mixed with a deep admiration for eachother (even from Law’s side, after all Doffy was the one who thaught him almost... everything?) which slowly turns into something terribly different. Imagine the tension between two arch enemies who have to admit their hate melted into passion... and yet still have this latent feeling of wanting the other’s death.......

Don’t know what’s your opinion about this kind of stories, but for me, the self proclaimed Queen of Angst, in love with the most tragical Theatre and Literature... THIS IS GOOD STUFF. 

10/10 HANDS DOWN.

Doffy x Trebol 

What tHE ACTUAL F***K. 

-10/10 

Doffy x Bellamy

Please, no. 

Alright, I hate Bellamy. He’s exactly the kind of character I find terribly pathetic and incomplete. He barely has a personality of his own, he’s a wild fanboy with nothing original (not like Barto. Barto is the best fanboy ever. All my love goes to Barto.). 

Now, he spent all his 34 years of life trying to... imitate Doffy? And yet he doesn’t even manage to truly understand him. So he’s worse than a fanboy, he’s attracted to the idealization of a man who’s not even half of the things he expects him to be. This is sad. Really sad. And call me a sadist, he deserved being humiliated imo. Maybe this helped him open his eyes and getting a life. Seriously. 

It goes without saying I totally can’t see how a relationship between him and Doffy could work. Doffy despises him, the only kind of plot this thing could have is a quite abusive one :/ and since I deeply dislike abuse.... no. This ship is totally out of question.

0/10

Doffy x Monet

This is another ship which barely touches the canon. I sincerely think the "love" between the two of them is pretty much unilateral. Doffy respects Monet, he deeply appreciates her abilities, intelligence and loyalty, she's clearly among his closest subordinates, but... He doesn't love her in a romantic way. As for Monet, she's totally in love with him, she'd kill and die for him. And in fact that's what she does in the end.

Monet is not among my fav characters, but I still feel quite sorry for how things went for her. She gave her everything away for a helpless, almost obsessive, love.

If something between the two of them really happened for real, I think it was merely physical.

For this reason, tough I have to admit they'd actually look beautiful together, I can't ship them :/

5/10

Doffy x Vergo

Ok, I dislike Vergo. He's quite a flat character imo, don't even like his design 😅 I don't ship him with Doffy for this simple reason, but being honest they could perfectly work as a couple.

Vergo was among Doffy's very first "real friends", he was among those who were considered a family by him and, most importantly, he was the only one around his same age. They literally grew up together, likely supporting each other, and I wouldn't be honest if I said this has no chance to be a good assumptipn for a love story. A quite simple and basic one, if you want, but it's the most realistic kind of bond two people can make.

Still not shipping them, my vote is a honest 7/10.

Guess that's all?

Let me know what do you think about this 😆 do you agree with my votes? Or there are some points you totally disagree with?

Well, anyways. I had fun 😂

[aerltarg]

☕️ favourite asoiaf theory

varys the merman or tyrion the time travelling fetus LMAO

also every alternative jon's parentage theory aside from r+l=j. n+a=j truthers aka ppl willfully living in denial are rlly funny, and some rabid stark stans who want jon to be the starkiest stark ever so much that they come up w some nonsense abt “which brother impregnated lyanna breaking space-time continuum” never fail to make me wheeze. all of them hate the idea of jon having anything to do w targs so much that they just go out of their way to twist canon into smth it is not (which is, unfortunately, a very widespread thing in this fandom). and often just dig the bigger grave for starks at that lol

[upd: nowadays some folks even claim jon's mother is ELIA of all ppl 😭 it's one of my favourites now as well as “rhaegar crowned lyanna at harrenhal bc he couldn't properly see through his helmet so he mistook dark-haired lyanna for dark-haired elia”]

also honorary mentions go to the 152626 variations of why rhaegar didn't love lyanna bc for some reason ppl refuse to interpret their (very easy to interpret btw) story right lmao

this fandom is absolutely on crack and this kind of stuff is at least funny enough. jonsas/stansas kind of crack isn't as much, unfortunately, bc one moment you laugh at them and the very next you are absolutely terrified bc you've just found out some rlly horrible shit abt them or their other “theories” lol

so, well, you see i'm very open to any serious theories and speculations and interpretations, e.g. dany is the younger more beautiful queen (bc it makes sense since cersei and dany are clear foils which is confirmed by grrm and bc of other reasons) or tyrion will become the dragonrider, etc. however, i also can entertain many alternatives! it's all fun while we stay respectful to each other even if we disagree and don't sink to the level of intellectual dishonesty of the cursed side of the fandom. i just personally think that things like r+l=j, jon will be kitn at least for some time, wargbowl, nymeria and her pack will play a big role in the future, joncon and cersei will set kl on fire, young griff will drop dead before dany sets foot on westeros, dany is aa/tptwp/tswmtw are all (more or less) either confirmed to be valid/canon by grrm outside of books themselves or are as close to be considered canon as we can get due to the canon material in the main books.

[daeneryswhitehorse]

Dany hate throughout the years.

( This is base on a reply I made in post create by @yendany . I also want to precise that it is only my perspective of the fandom as a dany stan, other people probably have a different opinion of what was going on. )

I came in the asoiaf/got fandom in 2011, when the show first came out. I fell in love with dany on my first watch and still like her after reading the books. I started to get involved in the fandom because I wanted to learn more about her.

I didn't know tumblr at the time so I was on westeros.org. The mad queen dany theory was already a thing, mostly for the persons who didn't like that dany could be azor ahai and not one of the male character. But the forum still liked her for her baddass moments in asos or her portrayal in the first season of got.

Everything changed when adwd came out. The incels in this site really didn't liked dany having sex with daario after rejecting jorah/quentyn. They also didn't understood her plot, were tired of her staying in Essos or not interacting with main pov character. It was enough for them to think she was boring.

From then on, there were a lot of bad take of her character. Grrm wanting to talk about the consequences of her mistakes and her decision of staying in meereen was understood as dany being dumb and incompetent as a queen. People made fun of her long list of titles and thought it make her look arrogant. They claimed she was nothing without her dragon, in contrast to male character like stannis. Or not a true warrior because she spend her battle hiding in her tent, unlike stannis or jon who fight with swords. Or that she didn't car about the common people, because she try to negociate with the meereeness nobles. Most of those claimed exist to prove why character like Jon or Stannis would be azor ahai or the true king of Westeros.

After season 3 of the show came out, a lot of people were rightfully offended by the final scene with daenerys where she surf on a sea of brown people. A lot of fans start seeing Dany as a white savior in both books and show, and a lot of essay were about how how her storyline was rooted in racist orientalist ideas. If you were a person of color and still stan her, it was probably because of internalized racism.

Before this season, feminist critized the butchering of most of dany storyline, like they did with other female characters. But none was as talk about then Sansa's, because the most popular female character like Dany, Arya and Brienne were seen as the cash grab of the show. It was considered more important to defend her in particular, and liking Sansa over them was seen as resistance act against D&D misogyny.

The intellectual part of the fandom really went out of their way in defending her. They liked her because she was a gateway to the political part of the story in King's Landing and the Vale. They didn't like how some fans victim-blamed her for the abuse she suffered with the Lannister, and praised the fact she didn't end up with stockolm syndrome like Dany or Theon. "Not everyone can be an Arya" did they said, as they wanted people to acknowledged she was the more relatable point of view and how her traditional feminity shouldn't be put down. They emphasis a lot on her kindness, her emphatie, or her observational skills but and said those qualities were unique to her and are what separate her of the rest of the cast. She was the representation of humanity in this crapsack world. And after outsmarting Littlefinger would probably be rewarded with an important political position and would be one of the builder of the new world after the apocalypse.

All of this probably wasn't meant to be interprete as hate toward other female and some of the male characters, but it sure did for the Sansa stan! Who would then create their entire defense meta around putting down any character they found and upliftting her above them. Their favorite target was Arya, but you could found from time to time one on Dany. I remember someone defending Sansa innocence in trusting Cersei in the first book, by emphasing on her age and naivety, and putting down dany for not knowing mirri maz durr would get revenge on her khalassar.

Talking about Dany, the intellectual part of the fandom didn't really like her. I mean they didn't hate her, and didn't diminish her importance in the story, but she clearly wasn't a fan favorite.

There was two angle in their analysis of daenerys: the political leader and the messiah.

For the first part, they were trying to define daenerys position in the story, and came to the conclusion she was the destroyer of the old world. In their point of view, dany didn't free the slaves in asos for pure reason but because she couldn't pay for an army, and then didn't know how to build a new economy, leading to the horrors in astapor in adwd and her failure in maintaining peace in meereen. For them, Dany is unable to control her emotion and confuse revenge with justice. They also think she is an incompetent queen who make decision on a whim and never listen to her adviser. Her relationship with Daario represent her want for easy solution through war, wich she embrace at the end of adwd. When she can't remember Hazzea name, it meant innocent would die in her violent path in twow. Because of this, the expression "the path of hell is paved with good intention" became popular to define her arc from asos to beyond.

For the second part, they were clearly interressed by the mystical part of her story. Dany has a lot of prophecy around her that can be used to determined the next plotlines post adwd. For some reason, they pushed their own obssession with it on Daenerys, who they now believed is blinded by her own destiny. They claimed she think she is the hero of story and is unable to see when she does something wrong. This until she will blow up King's Landing in ados. This would push her toward her true destiny in the fight against the others where she will sacrifice herself for the greater good.

And lets not talk about the weird part of the fandom who are obssessed with deconstruction and who would only acknowledge dany as azor ahai reborn if it meant the hero is actually the true villain of the story, and the Others misunderstood victims.

2015 arrive as well as season 5 of got. This season was so controversial it manage to divided the fandom in three.

The first one were book purist who were disguted by the total butchering of affc/adwd plotline to replace them with offensive mess, and decided to stop watching the show and focus on the books. While some of them were dany friendly, they all seem to favor character like Sansa, Stannis, Brienne, the Lannisters, or the Martells. A lot of effort were put into their metas to uplift their book plotline and personality above their show counterpart.

The second part is similar to the first one, exept they didn't stop watching the show but decided to view each season through critical lense to try to understand the sexism and racism of D&D. They were mostly Sansa and Martell stan.

Both of those point of view were seen as too radical and annoying by the dudebro show apologist. Being a Martell and Sansa stan also become a sign of being a woke feminist, a book purist and a show anti.

The third part of the fandom decided that the failure of season 5 was the responsability of Grrm for not finishing his books in time, and that the show writer had run out of material and were forced to improvised. Plus the book plots were too complex and boring to be adapted, they had to simplify them. And they were also given futur plot point by Grrm that could explain some of the controversial decision this season. Like Sansa wedding with Ramsay, it was probably made because the character would end up in the North in one of the next books.

Thoses three point of view are important to understand why when the theory saying dany is a villain not a hero became more popular, dany stan were pretty isolated.

And why did this theory became more popular? Well it's a mix of all thoses perception of daenerys that I mention above but mostly because of the peoples who decided that dany in season 5 was Joffrey.02. Like I say there were people who thought that D&D were now working with futur plot point given by Grrm. And since dany storyline was read as one of a white savior, and the fandom believed Grrm can't do no wrong, and dany did some stuff this season they disapproved of, they decided it meant dany should be seen as a villain. And in a way, it manage to reconciliate the feminist anti racist and the pro D&D point of view , now united in hating daenerys. It allowed them to still trust the show, because it meant it was not D&D and grrm who were racist but dany, and it made them feel smart for having figured out this big plot point. Plus a chunk of the show!jon stan decide the parallel between them this season meant he would become the true hero of the story. Because they thought janos execution was more honorable than mossador's, and jon fight against the wight walker to defend his brothers and the free folks was contrast with dany running away on drogon.

But there were people who didn't like dany and didn't think she would become a villain. Thoses people were feminist who thought daenerys, as the face of the show, was the embodiement of D&D fake feminism responsible of the ruined of character like Sansa or the Martells. Sansa in particular because they felt the show hated traditional feminity which is something Dany was not, which was what allegedly gave her more priviledge and love by the writer and fandom. When season 6 came out, they criticized the double standard between Cersei and Dany, where the former was demonized for burning a Church and the later was celebrate for burning the khals in their holy place. Obviously, the criticism of orientalism and racism within her story didn't make her very popular with feminist.

Season 6 end, and the sansa fandom decide to ship their fav with Jon Snow. But unfortunalty for them, it was obvious that jonerys would become a thing in later season.

Now Sansa was pretty well beloved by the fandom. Like I said earlier, the intellectual part of the fandom and the sansa defense squad really went out of their way to give a better image of the character, wich was fairly popular now that show sansa had a more active role. Plus the feminist adore her!

On the other hand, daenerys was seen as either a villain in the making, or the representation of the show fake feminism and racism. At this point dany stan were considered the dumbass of the fandom.

So, what happen when the jonerys vs jonsa shipping war happen? Well the jonerys shipper were seen as the big bully who victimized the poor sansa stan. Since in their point of view, dany stan were racist people who can't read, and the sansa stan were the woke book purist. Since Sansa was the underdog unfairly hated by the dudebro of the fandom, but beloved by the intellectuals. And Dany was the popular girl who got dumb stan and is only loved by pop feminism. People were naturally more incline into believing jonsa shippers as the victime of this war.

Even when the sansa stan were saying the most heinous things about dany and other female character to prop her up. Even when they were using the villain dany theory, the dark!dany theory, the white savior theory that had now become about dany being a colonizer and imperialist, or the ableist mad queen dany theory wich they backed up by diagnosis her with all the real life disorder they hated. It was seen as normal and dany stan just can't handle criticism. Even when multiple blog were created on tumblr to hate on daenerys which had almost no equivalent for the sansa/jonsa fandom, the jonerys shippers were the bad guys.

Jonerys was made canon in season 7. The intellectual part of the fandom either accept it but thought it was a cliche uninspiring ship, or they defend it for the themes but didn't see it as a complex relationship like jaime with cersei or brienne. The feminist, particulary the one who hated house targaryen, were shocked that grrm could romantize incest. And obviously, the jonsa hated it, and there ugliness started to be notice more with the weird theory they builted, like political!jon. The Jonerys fandom were finally getting some justice.

Plus more big name essayists in the fandom started debunking of the baseless incel hate dany receive post adwd. Dany had now the right to sleep with Daario, Jorah was a creep, Dany rejected Quentyn for peace, and Drogo being Dany rapist was getting more believed by the fandom.

During the hiatus before season season 8, @rainhadaenerys wrote down a lot of meta as a defense against the worst claimed that the fandom made about Dany. It gave hoped to dany stan, but it was crushed by season 8 with D&D deciding to make the mad queen theory canon the worst way possible.

Now the feminist and the intellectual part of the fandom are both defending daenerys. But there is the dominant idea that certain event of the last season could happen in the books, like dany burning King's Landing. And the possibility of her going insane should be accepted by the dany stan, and if not, it mean we are not real asoiaf fans.

[syfygirl1998]

Peter Dinklage on Dany’s Madness

I’d like to start by saying I discount pretty much everything the majority of the cast says about the ASOIAF universe for three reasons. One, the majority have not read the books and thus don’t have a valid or accurate opinion on them. Two, they base everything they say off their bias opinion on the show and their relationships with David and Dan. Three, they’re contractually obligated to promote the show and rub it in all of our faces that it was “fantastic” and “couldn’t think of a better way for it to end”.

The only main actors who’ve truly been able to stay out of HBO’s mopjob are Lena and Emilia - they really deserve credit for that.

I think this quote in itself shows that the actors don’t have an objective view of the series and/or are told to say things like this. Not only is the vast majority of the fandom and critics (+networks) on agreement that the last season was terrible. But the cast themselves have put out contridictory statements about the ending of the show and their characters.

I agree that monsters aren’t born, they are created. Created through years of pain, solitude, anger and the need for self preservation. Someone more like Cersei or Tyrion - both of whom have displayed their growing darkness over the coarse of the series - rather than someone who’s entire character personified rebirth, renewal and motherly love. But the point of storytelling is to be able to piece together the story like a puzzle and to be able to look back and point through all the things that built up the plot and characters. The problem with the last seasons of Game of Thrones is that it is all split second events that seem to have no build up or entirely contradict the previous plot and character. It’s not good development (plot or character) if “you don’t see it coming” because it’s based on a decision that wasn’t set up.

Wait, I though we “don’t see it coming”, but suddenly “there were signposts all along the way”? Which is it? Are we supposed to be puzzling together her eventual turn into a mad arsonist or is it supposed to be a complete shock that nobody saw coming?

And what were the signposts Daenerys had that nobody else did?

A life in exile?

Daenerys was born into hiding and assassination attempts. Viserys and her would move from place to place often because Robert’s assassins would catch up to them. And even after she was in the “safety” of the Dothraki, she had attempts on her life. Dany has never known safety, never had a home. All she ever had were dreams of finding home.

Arya grew up on the run from the Lannisters, not from birth but from a very early age. She saw her own father beheaded, was on the rough Kingsroad for years, was in Harrenhal, was at the Twins when the Red Wedding happened. Arya has had her own fair share of running and being afraid. And the things that drove her? Revenge and the want to go home.

Being forcefully married when she was a child?

Sansa was married to Tyrion against her will, the only difference is that Tyrion didn’t treat Sansa as his wife while Dany’s husband very much did.

Watching someone die without stopping it?

Viserys was her abusive brother who sold her and threatened to cut her unborn child from her stomach. He drew his sword in a place the Dothraki do not allow weapons and threatened their Khaleesi. Drogo killed him for threatening his wife and unborn child and dishonouring Dothraki customs. Dany didn’t stop his death and I don’t blame her, brother or not, nobody would save their lifelong abuser after they threatened to kill their baby. Even if she had wanted to, could she have? Drogo ordered his death and a Khal has seniority and he wouldn’t have considered saving the life of a man who threatened his Khaleesi or unborn child. Especially infront of his entire Khalasar.

Threatened people to get her way?

Her people were dying, starving and dehydrated and sunburnt. The only way to save them was to get them inside the city. A city that wouldn’t let them in. Was she supposed to turn around, leave and accept that she and her people and her children would die in the desert? No. She got them inside.

Wanting to return to her ancestral home?

Isn’t all the Starks plot now to return and retake Winterfell? Isn’t Jorah’s goal to return North for revenge? Isn’t fAegon and Jon C’s whole plot to retake the Targaryen lands?

Having people executed?

The Masters were slave owners and slave traders. My only note on this front is that she should have killed all of them, not just 163, and that she should have been more aggressive like her advisors said. Look at the American South, there was an entire Civil War to get rid of slavery that cost approximately 620,000 lives and around 5.2 billion dollars. Getting rid of slavery isn’t a cheap, easy or lifeless process. It takes years and many dedicated people in the persuit of freedom. Because freedom is a basic human right and people would rather die trying to attain it than live as nothing but livestock.

Other examples- Robb beheaded his own men for killing two Lannister boys. Even the man who had only kept watch, subjectively only guilty of accessory. Cersei blew up an entire Sept to get rid of a handful of people who were standing in her way. Jon hung all the men who stabbed him.

Killing people with fire?

The most common reason why people call her crazy is her affinity to fire. She’s the mother of dragons. She rides them into battle, they’re her weapons and her children. Just like Arya has Needle, Jon has Longclaw, Littlefinger has poison. People use the weapons they have.

Not to mention, dragon fire is actually a quick way to die. It’s so hot (note: Harrenhal) that the burning lasts a few seconds and then you’re dead. While a sword or poison is dependent on skill. A bad hacking job with a sword and you end up infected, losing limbs, dying slowly and painfully. Not to say any method is pleasant to die by.

Since we’re looking at signs - how about her compassion, her motherly proprayal, her need to help the innocent, her determination, her self built power, her survival, her kindness, her strength?

I won’t deny she’s had moments of darkness, but which character, which person, hasn’t? ASOIAF is built on grey characters but Daenerys isn’t filtered with darkness, she has more light inside her.

So is she angry or is she insane? Because it seems to me that even he can’t decide which one it is since he changed his answer halfway through. Peter starts by saying she’s mad and was driven to it. Then he goes on to say she’s also a victim to everything she’s been through and how she was treated but that she’s a survivor for coming through it all. And finally we finish on this note “came out angry, as a lot of us do”. Is the take away here that anyone who’s gone through horrible life events, survived and is angry at what has happened to them is insane?

I’d hate to pull the same card twice, but every main character in ASOIAF has gone through terrible things and every single character, hell every real life person, is driven by their emotions, their wants. Anger, revenge, hate, justice, honour, pride, love, lust, redemption, the list goes on. And there’s many examples of these emotions pushing them and driving them along their plot, their lives.

Does that make every single character, every single person insane?

_____________

Note to all the clowns who find this post : I’m genuinely not interesting in hearing you honk, honk, honk across my dash so just scroll by.

[wolfqueen-is-here]

Rating ASoIaF POVs

Don’t come at me, these are my personal likes and dislikes (also I’m bored and I had a bizarre fandom encounter yesterday which made me almost consider being too old for Tumblr :P).

If you want to give me yours, I’ll be more than happy to read them!

The order is number of chapters in all the books combined, not my personal favourites. To make it more fun, I’ll also rate them in a scale from 1 to 10 (my least favourite POVs to my best-loved ones).

Here we go!

TYRION - 6/10

Even though he’s not my favourite character (and that’s a huge understatement), I enjoy his chapters in both AGoT and ACoK. I feel kind of “whatever” towards his ASoS chapters, but the real deal-breaker are those from ADwD. It took me nearly two years to finish that book, simply because whenever I stumbled upon his POV, I went into a coma. For me personally it presents his least likeable portrayal, least insightful journey, least understandable motivations. Moreover, he used to constantly objectify women, while judging them by THEIR potential willingness to overcome their prejudice towards him in order to sleep with him. Like get over yourself, ma boy.

JON - 8/10

He started out as an underdog, his chapters in GoT were kind of boring and whiny, nothing ever happened. But boy oh boy, I can’t get enough of him since he ventured out and started hanging out with the wildlings; and his Lord Commander chapters? Probably my favourite ones in ADwD.

ARYA - 8/10

I preferred her hanging out in Westeros, I feel like crossing the sea slowed down her story a bit. Other than that: great read!

DAENERYS - 8/10

People often complain that her chapters were kind of a bore, but for me it was quite the opposite. For a long time she was our only window into Essos, she’s also quite observant and resourceful, so maybe she’ll help Tyrion’s POV become interesting again once they finally meet.

CATELYN - 10+/10

I ofter say that Sansa’s chapters are my favourite, but if I really had to make a choice, it’d be Cat. Her POV is captivating from the very beginning, and she takes us on such a journey! She’s our first window into the Vale, into Renly’s camp (where we meet Brienne and the Tyrells), into Riverrun and the Twins! We follow Robb through her eyes, we mourn Ned with her... She never stops being an interesting character with an eventful background, thrown into situations we wouldn’t be able to witness, weren’t it for her POV. You may like her, you may dislike her, but I’d say that the importance of her chapters is indisputable.

SANSA - 10/10

What can I say? I like her insight, she’s one of the most observant POV characters in the books (maybe because she doesn’t really have her own agenda - not in a bad way, she’s a child and a captive), which makes her less self-absorbed (especially in the later chapters). Yes, her first chapters in AGoT were a bit dull, and that’s why I’d choose Cat’s POV over hers in general.

BRAN - 7/10

I know it’s the weirdest thing to say about one of the most supernatural POVs, but I kinda preferred his Winterfell chapters? He proved to be a great leader (and I’m sure he will be a good king), but some of his later chapters blurred for me into a tight knot of “I’m going north, but sometimes I warg into Summer and hunt”. I hope we explore more of his abilities in TWoW, that’s something I’m really looking forward to despite not being particularly captivated by the deep north’s charms.

JAIME - 8/10

Entertaining, insightful, arrogant - and I’m talking about both Jaime Lannister and his POV chapters. He’s an arsehole with a terrific backstory, but also a walking disaster of a character. Pure joy. The only thing I regret is getting his POV so late in the books. I know it’d ruin suspense otherwise, but still.

EDDARD - 9/10

I love going back to AGoT and reading his chapters, pretending that I don’t know how things end for him. There are so many “main hero” tropes in his chapters, it makes me laugh. Oh well, it was great when it lasted!

THEON - 6/10

HATED his ACoK chapters, LOVED the ones from ADwD. I know that writing him as a dick was crucial to making his further story more heartbreaking, but I generally can’t enjoy vulgarity, objectifying women, describing characters having sex for 15 pages etc. That’s why I hate many Tyrion’s chapters, and that’s why Theon’s POV annoyed me at first. But damn, his inner struggle, his identity crisis, going back and forth from Reek to Theon...  10/10. 

DAVOS - 6/10

Ah, good uncle Davos! I don’t know why I’m not rating him a bit higher, I do enjoy his chapters, especially because it’s through him that we learn more about Stannis and Melisandre in the earlier books. But... he’s such a boring character! :D (I know, I will have to whip myself later for writing this, feel free to send me strongly worded letters, I deserve it.) Davos’s POV works great as an exposition, but I just cannot force myself to care about him personally. Good dude, though.

CERSEI - 9/10

My queen, one and only. I think ASoS might be my favourite book, and that’s mostly because of her chapters. She’s vindictive, egoistic, jealous, unreasonable... and irreplaceable! I enjoy her slightly mellowed-down, cool-headed show version (one of the very few things that the show did right), but gosh, book!Cersei’s weak-arse schemes might be the most wholesome piece of literature, honestly. And the fact that her paranoia isn’t unfounded, that some of her frustrations are totally justified - all that makes her a character rather easy to sympathise with. She might not have the most insightful POV, but it’s certainly the most entertaining one!

SAM - 7/10

He’s a good boy, and an attentive character - his chapters are enjoyable, but not yet exhilarating. Looking forward to more Oldtown business to reevaluate.

BRIENNE - 8/10

I’m not even going to explain myself, her journey was the most enjoyable side-quest I’ve ever witnessed. Some people don’t like her chapters, and honestly, that baffles me more than liking Tyrion’s ADwD POV. :D

BARRISTAN - 4/10

For a famous white cloak, he really felt like a non-character to me. His POV was a-okay, but to be perfectly honest I was constantly paging through his chapters to check whether maybe Dany came back.

VICTARION - 4/10

I’m not a Greyjoy-stan and I probably can’t appreciate the nuance of some Greyjoy POVs, but both Victarion and Aeron read kind of flat. Don’t hate me.

ARIANNE - 8/10

I still don’t get how she was omitted from the show. Maybe she doesn’t become the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, but so many pointless characters from the books got shitloads of screen-time, and my girl Arianne got none? Are you serious? Freaking BRONN became the Master of Coin, and they decided Arianne shouldn’t exist?! And yes, I love even the almost universally hated “The Princess in the Tower” chapter.

ASHA - 7/10

She’d be higher, but there’s a lot of vulgarity in her chapters, too, and I basically don’t care for that At All. Otherwise she’s a dope character and deserves the Iron Islands.

QUENTYN - 6/10

No offence to homie, but he was a bit of a bore. A nice one, but a bore.

AERON - 4/10

See: VICTARION. He’d get even less, but at least we could experience the Iron Islands through his POV.

AREO - 8/10

I don’t see how any Dornish POV (as in being IN Dorne, not being FROM Dorne like Quentyn) could get any less than 7 points. I still think we got too few Dornish POVs, I demand amends!

JONCON - 8/10

I don’t even care about the plot (although he was one of the only two insights into Aegon’s storyline, that should count for something), I can’t with the amount of gayness in his Rhaegar flashbacks. 8/10, would recommend. 

ARYS - 7/10

He was sweet, a bit naive, but I cannot go lower due to my Dorne principle (see: AREO).

MELISANDRE - 8/10

Surprisingly one of the most wholesome POVs of ADwD, pity it was just this one chapter. What with being a Red Priestess and all, you’d expect her to radiate more... numinous energy, but her chapter was one of the most iconic ones. I won’t give her a 9 just because I only have Ned and Cersei with those grades at the moment, and I think it should stay that way. (Oi, Ned/Cersei anyone?)

Prologues and epilogues not included.

What a trip. Care to share your favs? ;)

[joannalannister]

The "Tyrion is notably misogynistic" take is extremely common in the fandom. In general, he is judged far more harshly for his moral failings than other (male) characters. It's especially stark when you compare it to how the fans tend to excuse Jaime, a two time would-be child murderer. Why do you think Tyrion earns so much scorn? Is it abelism? Backlash to the show's white washing of his character? Something I'm missing? Or do you disagree with my premise entirely? Any input would be great.

I’m not in anybody else’s head (thank god) so I don’t know why anyone responds to a fictional character as they do, and each person’s reasons are probably as different as the grains of sand on a beach. Reading and relating to fiction is a deeply personal experience. Some people are going to love Tyrion, while others will hate him, and some will judge him harshly while others might let him off easy. It comes down to our own lived experiences and how we translate those into the stories we love.

I disagreed (strongly) with the other anon, but I’m not an authority on any of this. I’m not an authority on ASOIAF. I’m not the final arbiter of misogyny. I answered the other anon based on my own understanding of Tyrion, my own understanding of misogyny, my own reading of the text, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m right and they’re wrong.

I actually don’t think I feel comfortable saying that the people who believe “Tyrion is exceptionally misogynistic” are wrong. Yes, I strongly disagree with that take, I can’t stress that enough, but each person’s opinion on fiction is very personal. For example, if a sex worker said to me that they find Tyrion to be exceptionally misogynistic, who am I to say that they’re wrong? Fiction allows for different, completely contradictory opinions.

I would actually be very interested in reading an unbiased argument by someone who believes that “Tyrion is exceptionally misogynistic compared to the rest of Westeros,” with concrete examples of Tyrion’s specific instances of alleged misogyny, along with thorough explanations of why each instance is misogynistic, citing various feminist scholars and their definitions of misogyny. I would then like the actions of a handful of other major male characters, including Jaime, to be examined for instances of misogyny, and I would like this small sample to be compared to Tyrion.

Because yeah, I do think this take is very common, but I want to see more evidence to back it up. I hope this isn’t being read facetiously because my wish is sincere. Misogyny, IMO, is punishing women who don’t uphold patriarchy, and I would be interested in seeing Tyrion’s actions analyzed with this definition, or at least some authoritative definitions, in mind, because, while some of Tyrion’s thoughts and actions certainly fit this definition, I think the majority do not. But the word misogyny is thrown around so much now, that I think it’s losing meaning, and I think some meaning has to be brought back into the conversation surrounding Tyrion. I vented to a friend recently, “if [redacted female character] came up to Tyrion and randomly punched him in the stomach, and Tyrion called her out on it, Tyrion’s calling her out on it would be considered an example of his misogyny.”

So yeah, I do tend to agree with you. To offer a theory why, I think Tyrion is the antagonist in the stories of a lot of female POV characters, from the perspective of those female POV characters. Not to mention some non-POV female characters that Tyrion has most definitely wronged. Tumblr skews female, and a lot of readers identify with these female characters over Tyrion. I think Tyrion is really at odds with a lot of female POVs in a way that someone like Jaime isn’t. For example, Tyrion and Catelyn are at odds in AGOT. Tyrion is at odds with his sister throughout the books. Tyrion is at odds with Sansa in ASOS. While I find it easy to sympathize with both parties in these conflicts, some people choose to sympathize with only one. Which is also valid. I don’t necessarily think there’s a right or wrong way to respond to literature. But I think this lack of sympathy for Tyrion tends to mean he’s judged very harshly.

I also tend to think that Tyrion is GRRM’s greyest POV hero. Tyrion does some really horrible things. Now, as you say, Jaime does some horrible things too, but I’ve never really thought of Jaime ending as one of the heroes because I believe he is the valonqar. I have never felt that Jaime is going beyond the curtain of light, which I think Tyrion will. And I think we tend to judge our heroes more harshly than … whatever you would like to call the category that includes Jaime and Cersei and Tywin. And let me say, holy fuck is Tywin misogynistic, but somehow Tyrion is the worst misogynist in Westeros??? 👀👀 But Tyrion is on the balance scales of heroism, straddling light and darkness. With someone like Tywin, it’s like, “oh yeah, he’s a villain, that’s to be expected.” But with Tyrion? I don’t think anyone reading AGOT predicted ADWD Tyrion’s dark descent. And it’s that greyness that makes Tyrion interesting to me, complicated, real. Tyrion isn’t like Harry, he’s not like Lucy and Susan and Peter, he’s not like Rand, he’s not like Vimes. Tyrion’s hard to root for sometimes. And Tyrion is definitely misogynistic, even if I don’t think his misogyny is particularly exceptional, as I said in my other post. But I think GRRM has imbued the books with this sense that he is a hero (there is a general consensus that he is one of the three heads of the dragon) but would a hero really strangle Shae? Would a hero marry a 12 year old? And so it’s like WTF GRRM? which translates into a desire to “prove” that Tyrion was “the worst/the villain” all along. Even though I don’t think that’s GRRM’s point. I think GRRM’s point is that we have hero and villain both inside each of us. Even if you’ve done horrible things, you’re still, in this moment, capable of heroism; never doubt humanity’s ability to rise.

[secretlyatargaryen]

I know you aren't a fan of Tyrion's endgame being as Hand, but ignoring that and just focusing on the intersection of Bran and Tyrion in the endgame, what do you make of their connection and what do you see them representing thematically? I think it's interesting that the series came to George while dreaming of Bran and the wolf pups, and that what brought him back to writing the series after a break, was Tyrion "whispering to him," so it seems them together is major for his vision.

I love this ask and I do think Tyrion and Bran’s relationship is criminally under-explored in the fandom for how significant it is in the series. Like Tyrion’s relationship with Jon, his connection to Bran is one of Tyrion’s early tie-in’s to the overarching narrative of the series, as a character with both Stark and Lannister connections.

Although I do think the end of the series will look vastly different from the show, I’m not sure that King Bran is as off the mark as everyone says it is. I mean, it was done poorly, and Bran’s personhood as a character was treated really, really badly, but Bran has always been a central focal point of the series, from the very beginning, and his narrative has focused on both political leadership and the supernatural conflict, so it’s not really that off the mark. And a lot of the criticisms of Bran and his narrative have always revolved around ableism, which should be no surprise, but it got worse after season 8 because the show pitted him against fan favorites who were seen as more worthy while ALSO being grossly ableist towards the character itself. But I do think it’s a good possibility that Bran ends up king (or possibly king in the north). And Tyrion as his Hand is a pretty natural choice. I have stated that I dislike the assumption that Tyrion will be hand to whoever, and it’s a revolving door of characters depending on who the personal favorite is, which shows you something about why I dislike this ending for Tyrion, because it isn’t ABOUT Tyrion. For so many fans it’s about having Tyrion serve their fave, because of all the main characters, he’s known to be smart and has experience as Hand and they think their fave deserves him. But just like the King Bran ending, if Tyrion as Hand is done right, it’s not necessarily bad.

And Tyrion DOES have that connection with Bran established from his very first POV chapter. From his very first sentence, in fact.

Somewhere in the great stone maze of Winterfell, a wolf howled. The sound hung over the castle like a flag of mourning.

Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm. Something about the howling of a wolf took a man right out of his here and now and left him in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.

When the direwolf howled again, Tyrion shut the heavy leather-bound cover on the book he was reading, a hundred-year-old discourse on the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester.

There’s a couple of interesting things here. Firstly, these paragraphs are designed to introduce us to Tyrion. They emphasize that he is an internal character, that he is intelligent and thoughtful. The “flag of mourning” tells us that he knows that the Starks are grieving for Bran and that he sympathizes with them. Yet there’s also an element of fear, of the supernatural, the idea of being “in a dark forest of the mind, running naked before the pack.”

Now, that’s an interesting sentence. Does this mean that Tyrion is running from the wolves, running with them, or possibly leading them? It’s one sentence but it’s almost similar to the warg dreams that the Stark children have.

Also interesting here is that the book Tyrion is reading is about the changing of the seasons, written a hundred years ago. This could just be there for world-building purposes as well as character building, as it’s an easy way for GRRM to establish both that Tyrion likes to read and that in this world, the changing of the seasons is a major event. But it could also be foreshadowing, considering all the wolf imagery in this section.

Then of course when Tyrion leaves the library he hears Joffrey suggesting that someone should kill Bran’s wolf, and Tyrion scolds Joffrey on that and tells him that he should be properly expressing sympathy for Bran. Tyrion defends Bran a second time to his brother and sister, and of course, these scenes are there to characterize Tyrion, as the odd one out in his family, but they also serve to establish his Stark connection. And his connection to Bran specifically is as a disabled person, when Jaime suggests that it would be better for Bran to die than live as a cripple.

“Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death.

"Tyrion replied with a shrug that accentuated the twist of his shoulders. "Speaking for the grotesques,” he said, “I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities.”

Life is full of possibilities. And it wouldn’t be unlike GRRM to put someone on the throne who everyone thought would become nothing. The foreshadowing here also hints at Tyrion’s break from his family, as Jaime calls his loyalty in question.

Jaime smiled. “You are a perverse little imp, aren’t you?”

“Oh, yes,” Tyrion admitted. “I hope the boy does wake. I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say.”

His brother’s smile curdled like sour milk. “Tyrion, my sweet brother,” he said darkly, “there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on.”

Tyrion’s mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime. “Why, Jaime, my sweet brother,” he said, “you wound me. You know how much I love my family.”

Tyrion knows Jaime and Cersei don’t want Bran to wake up. Tyrion wants to hear what Bran has to say. There’s a lot of double-speak in this conversation and a lot of suppressed tension in the relationship between Tyrion and his family, even Jaime, whom he loves. Jaime, albeit unwittingly, questions the value of Tyrion’s life and Tyrion, intentionally, basically threatens Jaime. I don’t think Tyrion knows what exactly happened, but he knows something happened and that his brother and sister had something to do with it. Tyrion could be just stirring the pot because he likes to, and because he wants to be in the know and likes letting people know he’s got them figured out, but he’s also allying himself with Bran here in an interesting way.

Also, while we’re close reading, Tyrion grinned up wolfishly at Jaime and sarcastically talked about how much he loves his family.

And of course I’ve talked a lot about how intensely personal Tyrion’s gift of the saddle is for both him and Bran. He’s giving Bran a gift of empowerment that empowered Tyrion himself in a world not exactly disability-friendly. In a medieval world, being able to ride a horse means mobility, means freedom, means autonomy and adulthood and manhood, things both Tyrion and Bran were told they would never have. Like, both of them are told they should have died as children. Bran’s narrative is so much about becoming and he was told after his fall that he wouldn’t become anything.

“You’re asking a lame man to teach a cripple how to dance,” Tyrion said.

Tyrion at first says he can’t help Bran but he does. And Tyrion explicitly uses a disability metaphor.

I’ve never heard that about Tyrion “whispering” to GRRM to bring him back to writing, but I have read GRRM talk about how the story changed because Tyrion, specifically, did not want to follow the path GRRM had planned for him (and since GRRM often compares his characters to his children, I like the idea of Tyrion being a very unruly child.)

I do like the idea of Tyrion and Bran as a thematic duo. I don’t like the theory of Bran warging a dragon that Tyrion rides, and I can’t quite put my finger on why I dislike it. Maybe because I feel like it’s anticlimactic for Bran to have a remote-controlled dragon and anticlimactic for Tyrion to ride a dragon but not actually be riding it. But I’d love to see Tyrion and Bran’s connection come back into play in some way and I have also said that Tyrion knows how to make specialized saddles for riders with unusual needs…

And if y’all wanna talk about revolution, we should be afraid of the lame, ‘cuz they’ll inherit your legs.

[ginmo]

You're not delusional for entertaining the possibility of Brienne as YMB

“If you think anyone but [Insert Queen, most commonly Dany] is the YMB then you’re delusional” is something I have seen quite frequently, so I’ve been inspired to explain why that’s uh...well, complete bullshit.

To be delusional, you need to be spewing garbage without any reason or support and lack any sense of reality. But… there is plenty of evidence and reasoning, based in reality, to simply entertain a theory that isn’t [Insert Easy Choice].

Let me state that I'm not saying with total confidence that Brienne is YMB. I am not saying she is or is not. My claim is that Brienne is a perfectly logical candidate, and that being completely sold on a traditional choice, to the point where you’re publicly making asshole cocky comments about it, is risky af. I’m tired of people shutting down any discussion of it.

This is GRRM. This isn’t supposed to be easy (he literally said this, as shown below). There should be multiple interpretations to this prophecy. People who think it’s Brienne or Sansa or Marg or whoever may be wrong, or people who think it’s Daenerys may be wrong. Or maybe this is supposed to be ambiguous and we’ll never get a definitive answer. Maybe it’s multiple people. It all depends on what angle GRRM is going with. He could be going very literal and traditional with this, sure. Or, he could be going a more poetic route, which is also a style of his writing. Obviously by this post, I prefer the latter, but I see different angles. I’m not going to pretend I’m psychic by claiming I’m right and you’re wrong, and I’m not going misuse the word delusional. If you come after me later with, “LOL I TOLD YOU SO” I’m just going to say you missed the entire point of my post and my point is still 100% valid.

SO. Here is why you all have NO RIGHT to a) be so damn confident in your traditional choices and b) put down others for entertaining Brienne.

Hang on tight. This is long as fuck. First, you need to promise me you’ll do two things.

My two rules:

Consider authorial intent when thinking about meaning and trajectory and

Step outside the bubble and look at this story from a professional angle. A good narrative written by a professional author has structure and purpose.

Before I properly dive into this, let’s see what GRRM has to say about prophecies:

Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy…

I mean…. That should be enough to shake your confidence. He even gives an example.

In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anywhere near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

So you always want to frustrate our expectations, am I right?

Yes, it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me.  - GRRM

A physically beautiful Queen, or physical beauty in general, would essentially be the Lord being correct of his fate and dying in that castle. The Lord expected to die in that castle. Cersei’s only expectation to YMB is to be “cast down and take all you hold dear” by a literal beauty, literal Queen. That is obviously the reader’s expectation as well. Hello fandom! Cersei doesn’t know who this literal beauty/literal Queen is. She constantly obsesses over WHO, but is always wrong, maybe because it isn’t surface level obvious and it’s her incorrect interpretation, just like lord’s interpretation was wrong. He didn’t die in a literal castle.

See, I’m obviously so delusional for thinking GRRM might be doing, um… exactly what he said? There’s nothing from reality to support an idea that GRRM may not go the easy, literal route. There’s absolutely no reason for me to think this may not be so simple.

.

..

….

….

-__-

Right.

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-Younger, More Beautiful-

Brienne is a possible candidate for the YMB.

...it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations.

For both Cersei and the readers (again hello Freefolk, Twitter, Tumblr), Brienne as the unexpected YMB is a twist to the literal interpretation, fitting GRRM’s idea on how prophecies should be written.

“But everything that has happened about the prophecy was literal so duh this has to be literal!”

The literal parts of the prophecy were marrying the King and the number of children she’ll have. Yeah… there isn’t anything subjective to that, so it’s not surprising that it’s straightforward. She asked a question, Maggy gave her an answer. Besides the part with the children dying, the bit we’re talking about was stuff Maggy added in. Also, is there like a prophecy rule book somewhere I’m not aware of? Maybe consider that we got easy literal bits mixed in so we (and Cersei) are misdirected by the actual focus? Maybe consider that it’s possible for a prophecy to have some literal elements and some not? Maybe consider that a way more subjective (-cough-beauty-cough-) part of the prophecy isn’t as straightforward?

Moving on.

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”- CERSEI VIII, AFFC

It’s common to see “younger more beautiful QUEEN” (YMBQ) floating around fandom. Technically, Maggy never says the person is a Queen, whether literal or symbolic. She says “another.” An equally valid interpretation of that can be, “someone else who is younger and more beautiful than you.”

“Um no, it definitely implies a Queen because the words after and because of the context.”

If you really want to argue that GRRM definitely implies Queen, well, here’s something to chew on.

I’m not going to describe how Brienne’s arc is definitely not ending as her being someone’s bodyguard for the rest of her life. That’s for another time. But that doesn’t even matter really, because it has been made intentionally clear that Brienne is her father’s only heir. Once Brienne’s father dies, even if she’s still active on the battlefield, someone’s bodyguard, or still fucking off somewhere, she will still technically be the Evenstar.

- The Evenstar -

The Evenstar was a title given to the Tarth Kings. That title is still used. Why? It’s interesting to think that GRRM gave random minor House Tarth a specific title used for Kings, and that he allowed the House to continue using that title. Because he created that title for that House and allowed them to keep it, that title becomes symbolic of their previous kingdom. This is similar to our real world where some nations or groups retain titles from their history as more of a symbol. Selwyn Tarth is still known as the Evenstar. Selwyn Tarth is a symbolic King. When he dies (which will probably happen soon), Brienne automatically inherits that title, making her a symbolic Queen. And we all know how much GRRM loves symbolic meaning.

“I still think it’s a LITERAL Queen.”

I mean, a possible theory is that the throne will be destroyed at the end of this and the realm will split back into separate kingdoms. Sooo, if that happens……………………….

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- What does Maggy mean by beautiful?-

I have a really hard time believing that GRRM wants everyone to sit down and argue over who is physically more beautiful between his characters. In every story there are themes explored and messages woven within, so each character with an arc is going to have themes and messages associate with them. One of the themes being explored with Cersei is beauty. (This theme is explored through both Jaime’s and Brienne’s arcs as well, which isn’t a coincidence.)

Cersei’s interpretation of beauty lies on the exterior This is an element of her narcissism (word by GRRM).

(“Cersei isn’t narcissistic????”

You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization. - GRRM  

Don’t even go there)

In her eyes, a person’s worth is tied to how physically attractive they are. She is obsessed over being beautiful, and her twin being beautiful. Her attitude towards her twin changes when he returns handless. Cersei’s interpretation of the prophecy is that she will be cast down by a physical beauty, which is why she goes after Margaery (Dany most likely later on/Dany in the show). But remember this?

you don’t want to be too literal or too easy

It’s possible GRRM isn’t talking about physical beauty here. a) too literal and b) Cersei is being taught a lesson, and the readers are being sent a message. Like, you know… what good quality literature does. This is important to understand. Maggy probably realizes this about Cersei (like any classic Beauty and the Beast Witch), thus fulfilling the prophecy on her own, her own downfall being caused by her inability to recognize power with inner beauty.

“But Cersei is bringing her own downfall by obsessively trying to avoid the prophecy. As GRRM said, ‘The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true.”

And by obsessively going after her interpretation of what beauty is, she’s missing what’s right in front of her face.

“He took Raventree and accepted Lord Blackwood’s surrender,” said her uncle, “but on his way back to Riverrun he left his tail and went off with a woman.”

“A woman?” Cersei stared at him, uncomprehending. “What woman? Why? Where did they go?”

“No one knows. We’ve had no further word of him. The woman may have been the Evenstar’s daughter, Lady Brienne.”

Her. The queen remembered the Maid of Tarth, a huge, ugly, shambling thing who dressed in man’s mail. Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature. My raven never reached him, elsewise he would have come.

- CERSEI I, ADWD

I mean… this right here, imo, is pretty significant, but it’s frequently ignored.

We see Cersei feeling a bit threatened by her rapid fire questioning of what, why, and where.

She places emphasis on Brienne’s looks.

The use of Her. That’s rather strong. GRRM could have taken “Her” out and started her thoughts with, “The queen remembered” but there’s something forceful - as if making a point- to use Her. GRRM also made sure the readers knew that Cersei knows of this woman, and knows what she looks like. From a narrative standpoint, if Brienne’s inner beauty contrasting her outward appearance isn’t an important element in the downfall of Cersei, then there’s literally no reason why Cersei needed to have seen Brienne before. Remember my rules? Yeah, apply them to this one.

“Er, Brienne’s appearance is mentioned so that Cersei knows to not be jealous.”

…I think, “Jaime would never abandon me for such a creature” is basically saying “LOL well he did.” It’s GRRM telling Cersei, and the readers, that her answer is right there, right under her fucking nose, but she’s too dense and superficial to see it, which is the point of the Brienne theory.

“It’s there just to show that Brienne is taking Jaime away even though she’s ugly, but it has nothing to do with YMB.”

Yes, that is also the point. Again, an interpretation of a key message of the prophecy is that beauty isn’t literal, and beauty lies within. If we’re looking at the prophecy as a lesson to both the readers and Cersei, similar to The Witch in Beauty and the Beast - a tale and theme GRRM has been confirmed writing, then… why wouldn’t that be connected? “Brienne the Beauty” is literally the only character to challenge Cersei’s superficial perceptions, and the only one who has been set up to do so. In other words, for this particular theory, narcissism and superficiality drives Cersei’s downfall.

Also, I find it curious that instead of saying, “Lord Selwyn Tarth’s daughter, Lady Brienne” which would have been way more straightforward and which he could have easily done, GRRM instead used his other title, “the Evenstar’s daughter” which basically translates to, “the Princess.” A possible nod to the future Evenstar, the future symbolic (or even potentially literal) Queen, if Cersei and readers want to interpret the person as a Queen.

Reminder: that’s a fact. Not wishful thinking. Regardless of what Brienne is doing or where she is, she will literally inherit the title the Evenstar.

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- Brienne the Beauty -

BRIENNE IS AN INNER BEAUTY. This has been intentional and made crystal clear over and over. Brienne is the Beastly Beauty. A… beauty who gives a lesson by challenging Cersei’s perception of beauty and…. She is intentionally written as younger and….. she will have a title that’s a symbolic Queen and… her story is tied to Cersei’s lover? :O

Look, it’s no secret that one of GRRM’s favorite narratives is Beauty and the Beast. As mentioned above, he is writing an adaptation of Beauty and the Beast.

George R.R. Martin said what he wanted to do was to take the traditional format of Beauty and the Beast and change the roles — and also the genders. - Gwendoline Christie

[GRRM] also said that when he wrote the story of Jaime and Brienne, he was taking the formula of Beauty and the Beast and turning it on its head. He wanted to see what it was like for the man to be the beauty and the woman to be the beast and how that would play out. - Gwendoline Christie

I spoke to George R.R. Martin about this, and he said that it was always his intention with Jaime and Brienne to take the classic Beauty and the Beast story, and turn it on its head. Brienne is not ‘unconventionally attractive’, she’s ugly, and she’s ugly to society. She is the beast.- Gwendoline Christie

He’s taking the traditional format (a romance) and switching the genders and roles. The entire point of BatB is to destroy the idea that love and beauty are determined by superficial qualities.

Guys again, I’m so delusional. There is nothing to see here. None of this is from anything real.

“But that’s just for Jaime.”

There can be other characters in a Beauty and the Beast adaptation. It’s an adaptation, not word for word. Other characters can be used to deliver the message, especially if the character is uh… linked to and romantically involved with one of the BatB inspired characters. For example, in the Disney adaptation we have Gaston (who… now that I think about it, actually has a similar Cersei way of thinking, ngl lol).

Brienne is the one character who has the actual name of Beauty associated with her. She is Cersei’s opposite. Brienne is the epitome of what Cersei cannot understand. A theme explored through Cersei is beauty, which is a theme that’s heavily explored through Brienne as well. Brienne’s character has been shaped around rejection due to her appearance. Literally every page in her POV is about how ugly and undesirable she is. Therefore, it’s very possible their characters are connected by a shared beauty theme.

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- The Prophecy -

Okay, the rest of this stupid thing for YMB. Here we go.

”Will I wed the prince?” she asked.

“Never. You will wed the king.”

Beneath her golden curls, the girl’s face wrinkled up in puzzlement. For years after, she took those words to mean that she would marry Rhaegar until after his father Aerys had died.

GRRM straight up telling the readers that Cersei interprets this shit incorrectly.

”I will be queen, though?” asked the younger her.

“Aye.” Malice gleamed in Maggy’s yellow eyes. “Queen you shall be… until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

“But ginmo, -sigh-, Cersei doesn’t hold Jaime most dear. The thing she holds most dear is power.”

Is she not always jealous and bitter over how Jaime is born to be heir and she is not? Does Jaime not represent the Lannister legacy she craves? Does Ms. “my brother is worth a thousand of your men” not lose any amount of power if Jaime stops doing what she wants? Is Jaime’s identity shift not influenced by Brienne the Beauty? Where is Jaime in both books and show? Couldn’t Brienne’s influence on Jaime mean Cersei loses power, a lover, her legacy? Jaime is power.

And then, again, there is also the straightforward route with the Kingdom splitting up possibility and Brienne the Evenstar….

Then we get this perfect little nugget.

Anger flashed across the child’s face. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

I WILL HAVE MY BROTHER KILL HER I’M DYING. This is something that is repeated TWICE. Here in the prophecy and later in the chapter when she’s talking to Qyburn about the prophecy.

”...another queen, who would take from me all I loved.”

“And you wish to forestall this prophecy?”

More than anything, she thought. Even in the tent. “If she tries I will have my brother kill her.”

This is another moment to apply my two rules. There is literally no point to this being thrown in there if Jaime is not connected to the YMB, and definitely no point to emphasize a second time that she’d have her brother kill her. The words are not, “I will have her killed,” which could have left it ambiguous and easily been done. No, she (which is GRRM) specifically uses “my brother will kill her.” The irony is that, JAIME IS IN LOVE WITH HER. HE’S IN LOVE WITH THE BEAUTY.

“No, the irony is that by that time Jaime won’t listen anymore to her.”

I mean, that’s possible obvioiusly, but… yawn? That has practically zero emotional weight attached to it. I personally lean more towards this being a massive hint, that Jaime is the LAST person to kill the YMB, because he lost his heart to her, which makes it so delicious and juicy. GRRM is essentially having a massive evil laughing fit.

Another small note, during the Maggy the Frog scene, after delivering the YMB message to Cersei, Melara asks if she’ll marry Jaime. When they leave, Cersei kills Melara for wishing to marry Jaime, which is GRRM telling the readers that Jaime most certainly represents something Cersei holds dear, or else she wouldn’t be killing her. It’s not a coincidence this was right after she learned about the YMB.

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- Cersei is her own downfall -

The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true

In the show Cersei is threatened by Dany as YMB (since it’s possible she incorrectly interpreted the prophecy, wow what a concept that’s not possible at all). This was made clear by the script notes. Apply my rules here as well.

But what’s the meaning of Cersei being taken down by a physical beauty? That just… proves her right? That would be the Lord dying in the literal castle? It just supports Cersei’s superficial world view by sending absolutely no message to her character? From a narrative standpoint, there’s no point to have YMB be a literal beauty. Again, is it possible he’s going the literal route? YES. But considering GRRM implements a ton of metaphor and symbolic meaning in his work, that he literally said he’s writing a BatB narrative so Beauty Within is definitely present, and he straight up said he doesn’t like his prophecies to be entirely literal, I’m going to at least have fun and entertain the non-surface level interpretation, and I’m therefore not delusional for doing so.

And since Cersei is bringing her own downfall, how would Dany even fit? Dany would have been going after that throne regardless of whoever’s ass was sitting on it. Dany’s pursuit of the throne has absolutely nothing to Cersei, and everything to do with what she believes is her right. My point is, if Cersei’s butt wasn’t there, Dany would still be doing exactly what she’s doing. So how is Dany taking the throne a consequence of Cersei bringing it upon herself? Cersei and Dany are completely separate from one another. Even if AU Cersei was nice to all of her allies and Jaime, Ned knew the identity of her children, and therefore a fractured Westeros would still exist. She wouldn’t have had enough men to fight off Dany. None of that really matters anyway, because Daenerys still would have converted Houses through the use of her dragons. In the show, it’s been made clear that she thinks it’s now Dany so...… going back to my points outlined above, if she thinks it’s Dany, maybe it’s possible she’s wrong.

You know the one character Cersei will NEVER see as a threat, due to her narcissistic inability? Brienne the Beauty.

(Also for show!Cersei, I love how fandom is like “Valonqar can’t be Tyrion because Cersei thinks it’s Tyrion” and then in the same breath they go, “DO YOU SEE? Cersei thinks Daenerys is the YMB so it’s Daenerys!”..................................................... Like I said, GRRM and D&D could be going that way, but to use that logic is just…… what)

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-Book Structure-

Hey did you guys know that there’s actually thought and technique that goes into the formatting and structure of a book, especially a book series? That the structure of chapters and the format aren’t just randomly thrown together? DEFINITELY apply my two rules here.

When was this prophecy introduced? AFFC, the book Cersei AND Brienne conveniently got a POV, the book that is mostly Jaime, Cersei, and Brienne centric. Who has a POV chapter immediately after Cersei’s prophecy? Brienne. Why is it structured this way? Was it random that the book was mostly a Lannister twin + Brienne book? No...

What can that possibly imply?

The main story running through each of those characters is the same. In other words, those three are connected to the same subplot - BatB- and are therefore connected through the same themes.

POSSIBLE? Yes.

DELUSIONAL? No.

Also my favorite. Look at this chapter ending. LOOK AT IT. Feel the dramatic pause. DO YOU CLAIM THIS IS RANDOM?

I dare you tell me that there is no thought that goes into a chapter end.

I dare you to tell me that the Cersei chapter following is meaningless, like the structure of a book doesn’t go through an editing process, that chapter ends aren’t significant and the structures aren’t another element in the story telling process.

I dare you to tell me that “Brienne the Beauty” weren’t words intentionally chosen by a professional author.

We first hear about “younger, more beautiful” in CERSEI III - AFFC, and then Brienne is referred to as, “Brienne the Beauty” shortly after in BRIENNE III - AFFC. The only other time Brienne's nickname of “Brienne the Beauty” was mentioned was when Catelyn made note of it. It wasn’t in ASOS when there were plenty of opportunities, and it only came up again (...four times) right after Cersei thinks about YMB for the first time.

yEAH GUYS, DElUSIOnAL, wHat IS naRraTive StrUcTuRe AnD pROfESsIONAL fOrMAtTiNG? nOt rEaL LMFAO bRiEnNe’s nOt pOsSIbLe aT aLL

[sapphires-and-gold-fics]

Fictober Day 13: “I never knew it could be this way.”

Fandom: Game of Thrones / ASOIAF / Jane Austen

Characters: Jaime Lannister / Brienne of Tarth, and a whole bunch of other characters that I have shoved into this Sense & Sensibility adaptation

Notes: Alright listen. This was just going to be a very short little passage from Sense & Sensibility adapted for ASOIAF/GOT characters and then it just got away from me. It ran. It fucking ran. So now it's the first five chapters of Sense & Sensibility adapted for Brienne & Jaime. I know what you're thinking - WTF? My answer to that is... IDK. I honestly thought I was going to be shoehorning Brienne into this thing and I have to say she's been much more cooperative than I ever imagined. A word of warning - I don't know that I will pick this up again at any point. I 'm not making any promises. I love S&S and I love GOT and I REALLY love the world that I've mashed them into but I don't know if it's sustainable. So... I guess please don't get too attached? But if you like it, let me know! I was gonna do something else for NaNoWriMo but if this is pleasant for people maybe I'll do this instead? Please please please comment whatever your feelings because that will help me know if this is something that other people will enjoy or if this is unique to me, and I should put it to bed. Thank you all for reading "Put Me Back Together" thus far. I hope to not go as crazy for the rest of the month.

Read on AO3

xxxxxxxxxxx

***

The Stark Family had long been settled in the North. Winterfell, their estate, was large. And for many generations they had lived respectably, earning the good opinion of their neighbors.

Mr. and Mrs. Ned Stark had no sons, only three daughters; one, product of his first marriage, who was of an age to be wed, and two others by his present lady. With luck, his daughters could beget sons during Ned’s life, and he might thereby amend the inheritance. In the meantime, the estate was entailed away to his cousin and best friend from childhood, Mr. Robert Baratheon who had improved on his already considerable wealth, in marriage. To him therefore the inheritance was not so really important as it was to Ned’s daughters.

Ned might reasonably hope to live many years and to save a considerable sum for his family should he pass before a male issue came. Regretfully, he passed within a year of inheriting Winterfell; and the sum of ten thousand dragons was all that remained for his family.

Robert was sent for as soon as Ned’s illness was known, and to him Ned recommended, with all the urgency which illness could command, the interest of Catelyn and the girls. Robert promised to do everything in his power to make them comfortable. Ned was made easy, and Robert had then time to consider how much precisely was in his power.

***

No sooner was Ned’s funeral over, than Robert’s wife Cersei, without sending any notice of her intention, arrived with her child and their servants. No one could dispute her right to come; but the indelicacy of her conduct, and her ability to act with so little attention to the comfort of other people made things highly unpleasing. So acutely did Catelyn feel this ungracious behaviour that she would have quit the house immediately, had not the entreaty of her husband’s eldest girl induced her first to reflect on the propriety of going.

Brienne, this eldest daughter, possessed a strength of understanding, and coolness of judgment (according to her father, she had inherited these characteristics from her late mother, who had died in childbirth); these qualified her, though only nineteen, to be Catelyn’s counsellor and to counteract that eagerness of mind which otherwise could lead to imprudence. She had an excellent heart and was affectionate of disposition, but she knew how to govern her feelings, however strong, as evidenced in her disciplined pursuits - riding, archery, even fencing. Her father had supported these in acknowledgement of her departed mother’s interests. Her strength of character and ability to control her emotions was a skill that her stepmother and sisters had resolved never to learn.

At sixteen, Sansa's abilities were, in some respects, equal to Brienne's. She was sensible and clever; but eager in everything. The resemblance between her and her mother was strikingly great. Brienne saw, with concern, that she and Catelyn encouraged each other now in the violence of their affliction. Brienne, too, was deeply afflicted; but still she could exert herself for propriety and could strive to rouse her stepmother to similar exertion, and encourage her to similar forbearance.

Arya, the youngest sister, was a good-humored, well-disposed girl; but as she had already imbibed a good deal of both Sansa’s romance and Brienne’s quiet guardedness, she was a bit wild and spent much time in trees.

***

Cersei Baratheon now installed herself mistress of Winterfell; and the Stark women were degraded to the condition of visitors. As such, however, they were treated by her with quiet civility. Robert had resolved to make a gift of three thousand dragons for the girls as the measure of support he had promised Ned. But Cersei did not at all approve. To take three thousand dragons from the fortune of their dear boy would be akin to impoverishing him. She begged him to think again on the subject. Why was he to ruin himself, and their poor little Joffrey, by giving away all his money to strangers?

“It strikes me that they can want no money at all,” said she, “for they will have ten thousand dragons divided amongst them. If they marry, they will be sure of doing well - Sansa shall, at least - and if they do not, they may all live very comfortably together on the interest of ten thousand dragons."

“I believe you are right, my love; whatever I may give them occasionally will be of far greater assistance. It will certainly be much the best way. A present of fifty dragons, now and then, will prevent their ever being distressed for money, and will, I think, be amply discharging my promise to Ned."

"To be sure it will. I am convinced within myself that Ned Stark had no idea of your giving them any money at all. Indeed, it would be very strange and unreasonable if he did. They will be much more able to give you something." In the end, Robert insisted that Catelyn and the girls stay on at Winterfell until they could find a suitable home; in doing so, he saw his promise as kept.

***

They remained at Winterfell several months. Catelyn was impatient to be gone, and untiring in her inquiries for a suitable home in the neighbourhood. But she could not find a situation that at once answered her notions of comfort and ease which also suited the budget as Brienne had laid out for them.

The contempt which she had early-on felt for Robert’s wife was very much increased by prolonged acquaintance with her character. Catelyn might have insisted on leaving sooner, Brienne’s prudence by damned, had not a particular circumstance arisen. That is, there was growing attachment between Brienne, and Cersei’s brother, a proud young man whose gentlemanly qualities were at first in question, though they improved upon acquaintance, who was introduced to their household soon after his sister's establishment at Winterfell, and who had since spent the majority of his time there; most of it was spent at Brienne’s side.

Some mothers might have encouraged the intimacy from motives of interest, for Mr. Lannister was the eldest son of a man who was very rich; and some might have repressed it from motives of prudence, for the whole of his fortune depended on the will of his father. But Catelyn was uninfluenced by either. She thought only of Brienne’s happiness. It was enough that he was honorable, that he had an affection for her stepdaughter, and that Brienne returned the partiality.

Mr. Jaime Lannister was not recommended to their good opinion by any particular graces of person or address. He was handsome to be sure, but his manners required intimacy to make them pleasing. He was proud, yet almost too shy to do himself justice; but when his natural shyness was overcome - most obviously when he was not in the company of his sister, but most pronounced when he was with Brienne - his behaviour gave every indication of an open, loyal heart. But he fitted neither by abilities nor disposition to answer the wishes of his father and sister, who longed to see him distinguished in the world. His father wished to interest him in political concerns. Cersei wished it likewise, though perhaps not so lofty as to take him away from her influence. But all of Jaime’s wishes centered in more earthly things. He spoke of farming as oft as he spoke of military pursuits. He preferred riding a horse to driving a barouche, and it had nothing to do with the knowledge of how fine a figure he cut whilst riding.

Jaime had been staying several weeks in the house before he engaged much of Catelyn’s attention; she saw only that he was tall and quiet in the presence of others. He did not disturb the wretchedness of her mind. She was first called to observe and approve him farther quite by accident when the sharp strange sound of steel clashing in the garden caught her ear. When she made her way thence, she was surprised - not to see Brienne clad in breeches, or even to see her sparring with Cersei’s brother, but by Brienne’s smile - a sight she’d not seen in many moons.

***

Catelyn now took pains to get acquainted with him. She speedily comprehended all his merits as well as his faults, but the persuasion of his regard for Brienne perhaps assisted in disregarding the latter; she felt assured of his worth: and even his reserve, which went against all her established ideas of what a young man's mien should be, was no longer uninteresting when she knew his heart to be warm toward her girl. She considered their attachment as certain, and looked forward to their marriage as rapidly approaching.

"In a few months, my dear Sansa." said she, "Brienne will, in all probability be settled for life. We shall miss her; but she will be happy."

"Perhaps," said Sansa, "I may consider it with some surprise. Mr. Lannister is very handsome and amiable, but yet there is something wanting. He would rather speak of horses and swordplay than anything approaching artistry. Though he admires Brienne's drawings very much, he admires as a lover, not as a connoisseur. To satisfy me, those characters must be united. Oh! mama, how spiritless was Mr. Lannister's manner in reading to us last night! I felt for my sister most severely. Brienne has not my feelings, and therefore she may overlook it, and be happy with him. But it would have broken my heart, had I loved him, to hear him read with so little sensibility.”

"Remember, my love, that you are not seventeen. It is yet too early in life to despair of such a happiness."

***

"What a pity it is, Brienne," said Sansa that evening, "that Mr. Lannister should have no taste for reading."

"No taste for reading!" replied Brienne, "He read himself the other night. It is true, he prefers other activities, and he is not a great reader - he confided in me that it… challenges him at times. But he has an innate simplicity of taste, which helps direct him. I hope, Sansa, you do not judge him for this. Indeed, I think you cannot now I’ve explained it. Promise me that you will be civil with him.”

Sansa hardly knew what to say. At length she replied: "Do not be offended, Brienne, if my praise of him is not in everything equal to your sense of his merits. I promise I have the highest opinion in the world of his honor.”

"Of his honor, no one can, I think, be in doubt,” Brienne said quickly, “He and I have been at times thrown a good deal together. I have heard his opinions and, upon the whole, I find him well-informed, his imagination lively, his observation just.” She took Sansa’s hands in hers. “You will agree that, at first sight, my own address is certainly not striking, and my person can hardly be called handsome, yet he has had occasion to call the expression of my eyes... uncommonly good.”

“Uncommonly good? Tell me he used those words again, and I shall indeed change my mind about my civility toward him.”

“No, indeed. He called them… he said they were astonishing… in their similarity to a flower - I’ve mislaid the name. But certainly that meets your demands? He has his pride, Sansa, but the general sweetness of his countenance is easily perceived.”

"When you tell me to love him as a brother, I shall indeed think him sweet, Brienne.”

Brienne started at this declaration. "I do not attempt to deny," said she, "that I think very highly of him—that I greatly esteem, that I like him."

"Esteem him! Like him! Cold-hearted Brienne! Oh! worse than cold-hearted! Ashamed of being otherwise. Use those words again, and I will leave the room this moment."

“Be assured that I meant no offence to your sensibilities by speaking so quietly of my own feelings. In truth, I never knew it could be this way. Believe my feelings to be stronger than I have declared. But farther than this you must not believe. In my heart I feel scarcely any doubt of his preference. But there are other points to be considered besides his inclination. He is far from being independent. His sister and father wish a great deal for him, and I am very much mistaken if Mr. Lannister is not himself aware that there would be many difficulties in his way, if he were to wish to marry a woman who had neither a great fortune nor a high rank, and not even agreeable looks."

Sansa was astonished to find how much the imagination of her mother and herself had outstripped the truth."And you really are not engaged to him!" said she. "Yet it certainly soon will happen. You are so alike, Brienne. You have the same affinity for activity and thought. Trust his feelings as you trust your own. The only thing I am glad for, in your not being promised to him yet, is that I will have greater opportunity to know him and be assured of your future felicity.”

Brienne could not consider her partiality for Jaime in so prosperous a state as Sansa and Catelyn had believed it. There was, at times, a want of spirits about him which, if it did not denote indifference, spoke of something almost as unpromising - some hesitation or doubt. She knew that his father neither opened his home to Jaime at present, nor gave him any assurance that he might form one for himself, without strictly attending to his wishes. With such a knowledge as this, it was impossible for Brienne to feel easy on the subject. The longer they were together the more doubtful seemed the nature of his regard; and sometimes, for a few painful minutes, she believed it to be no more than friendship. But then he would seemingly stumble across her in the library or in the gardens and in the next moment they’d be suiting up to spar. She flattered herself to judge that it was only when he was with her that he seemed truly at ease, and happy. His regard at those times seemed limitless.

***

But, whatever might really be its limits, it was enough, when perceived by his sister, to make her uneasy, and to increase her incivility. She took the first opportunity of confronting Catelyn Stark on the occasion, talking to her so expressively of her brother's great expectations, of Tywin Lannister's resolution that all his children should marry well, and of the danger attending any young woman who attempted to draw her brother in; Catelyn could neither pretend to be unconscious, nor endeavor to be calm. She gave Cersei an answer which marked her contempt, and then instantly left the room, resolving that, whatever might be the inconvenience or expense of so sudden a removal, her Brienne should not be exposed another week to such insinuations.

In this state of her spirits, a letter was delivered to her from the post, which contained a proposal particularly well-timed. It was the offer of a small house, on very easy terms, belonging to a cousin of hers, a gentleman of consequence and property in the Riverlands. The whole of his letter was written in so friendly a style as could not fail of giving pleasure to his cousin; more especially at a moment when she was suffering under the cold and unfeeling behaviour of those she currently depended upon.

She needed no time for deliberation or inquiry. Her resolution was formed as she read. The situation of Riverrun Park, in a county so far distant from the North as the Riverlands, which, but a few hours before, would have been a sufficient objection to outweigh every possible advantage belonging to the place, was now its first recommendation. She instantly wrote Edmure Tully her acknowledgment of his kindness, and her acceptance of his proposal; and then hastened to show both letters to her daughters, that she might be secure of their approbation before her answer was sent.

Brienne had always thought it would be more prudent for them to settle at some distance from Winterfell. On that head, therefore, it was not for her to oppose her stepmother's intention of removing into the Riverlands. The house as described by Mr. Tully, was on so simple a scale, and the rent so uncommonly moderate, as to leave her no right of objection on either point; and, therefore, though it was not a plan which brought her any joy in her current state of uncertainty, she made no attempt to dissuade Catelyn from sending a letter of acquiescence.

***

No sooner was the letter dispatched, than Catelyn indulged herself in the pleasure of announcing to the Baratheons that she should inconvenience them for not much longer. Cersei said nothing; but her husband civilly hoped that she would not be settled far from Winterfell. She had great satisfaction in replying that she was going into the Riverlands.

Jaime turned hastily towards her, his voice full of surprise and concern, and repeated, "The Riverlands! Are you, indeed, going there? So far from hence! And to what part of it?" She explained the situation, describing Riverrun Park and its position along the Green Fork. She watched Jaime absorb the information and then turn his eyes to Brienne.

Catelyn concluded with a very kind invitation to Robert and Cersei to visit her. To Jaime she gave one with greater affection. To separate Jaime and Brienne was as far from being her object as ever; and she wished to show Cersei how totally she disregarded her disapprobation of the match.

***

The furniture was all sent ahead. It chiefly consisted of household linen, plate and china, with a handsome pianoforte of Sansa's. Cersei saw the packages depart with a sigh: she could not help feeling that as Catelyn’s income would be so trifling in comparison with their own, she should have any handsome article of furniture. Their man and one of two maids were sent off immediately into the Riverlands, to prepare the house for their mistress's arrival.

Catelyn took the house for a twelvemonth. No difficulty arose on either side in the agreement; and she waited only for the disposal of her effects at Winterfell before she set off for the south; and this, as she was exceedingly rapid in the performance of everything that interested her, was soon done, though she dawdled for two days longer than necessary in order to give Jaime and Brienne more time together.

They spent the majority of their afternoons walking the fields just beyond the garden away, by design, from Cersei’s prying. Brienne would have been contented with the library and gardens and their usual routine, but Jaime had insisted. There were still moments where he was all too quiet and Brienne was certain that he was preparing to clear the air with the secrets he was harboring, and make more firm his lack of regard for her. But in the next, he would be pressing her hand or smiling at her in that way he had only done before with foil flashing.

***

In a very few weeks from the day which brought Edmure Tully’s first letter to Winterfell, everything was so far settled in their future abode as to enable Catelyn and the girls to begin their journey.

Many were the tears shed by them in their last adieus to a place so much beloved. "Dear, dear Winterfell!" said Sansa, as she wandered alone before the house, on the last evening of their being there; "when shall I cease to regret you!—And who will remain to enjoy you?"

That same eve, Brienne went to the stables to visit to her favorite mare, which Catelyn had sold to Robert when keeping her proved unnecessary and unsustainable for their new life. Brienne was brushing her when the door opened and Jaime appeared out of the darkness, his hair bright, catching the light of her lantern. His look was solemn, and Brienne wondered if the hour of his confession had finally come. But he smiled and pulled a small book from behind his back and offered it to her.

She took it and studied the lettering on the spine, fingering the worn edges of the indigo cover in surprise. “This was my mother’s.”

“So you told me.”

She smiled, “You remembered.” He nodded sheepishly. “My father kept it in his study in the home I grew up in. When we moved here, he added it to the library thinking it would be kept in the family.” Jaime stepped forward and laid a hand on hers comfortingly, warm, “He used to read to me from it - stories of princesses and merfolk and knights… all of them with happy endings.” She stayed the tears forming in her eyes, and firmed her resolve. She slipped the book back into his hand. “Take it. Take it back. I wouldn’t want to lose track of it between now and morning. It belongs to your sister now.”

“Brienne…” he took her other hand and secured it around the book so that all four of their hands clasped it together. “It’s yours. It will always be yours. She won’t miss it. And even if she did, I would own it, for I was the one who took it. You’re leaving enough behind. I don’t wish for you to part with something so dear.” His hands were warm on hers and of them was trembling though she couldn’t tell if it were Jaime or herself or both. She nodded and he let go, his fingers whispering against the backs of her hands. “May I walk you back to the house?”

Brienne looked from him back to the mare whom she had abandoned on Jaime’s arrival. “I haven’t finished my goodbyes.” Jaime looked somewhat sad but he nodded understanding, and turned to go. “Jaime - “ he stopped and turned back to her, something shining in his eyes“ - we did not gather as usual after supper tonight.” She held out the book, “Will you read to me?” He grinned, a shadow of his usual smile, and took it. Then he sat on the stool by the door and slowly read her a well-traversed tale of knights and dragons while she worked until the horse’s coat shone.

***

The next morning, Robert and Jaime saw the Stark women off. Cersei claimed a headache and stayed abed. Jaime handed each of the women into the hired carriage. He lifted Arya into it, setting the eight-year-old giggling; then Catelyn who kissed his cheek like an affectionate aunt; then Sansa who, grasped his shoulders dramatically and wished him well; and finally Brienne. He handed her into the carriage, and then she reached her arm out of the window so that he might shake it. Instead, while Robert engaged the others from the other side of the carriage, Jaime looked up at her sadly and pressed her hand harder than she expected, and brushed her knuckles with his lips. “Goodbye… Miss Stark.”

“Goodbye, Mr. Lannister.”

He silently mouthed “Jaime” and she nodded before her hand retreated back into the carriage. He set a smile on his face - the kind he maintained in mixed company - and joined Robert on the opposite side of the carriage, and from there the two waved them off as the Stark women drove away from Winterfell.

***

They would travel four days to reach Riverrun. On the third night they were stopped at an inn and Brienne was alone while her stepmother and sisters finished supper below. She drew the indigo book out of the reticule she kept on her person. The edges seemed more worn, more loved, than she remembered. She settled onto the bed to read one of her favorite passages when she noticed that something almost the color of the cover seemed to be tucked into the pages about a third of the way through the book.

She carefully parted the pages to that spot and there, carefully pressed, was a cluster of five-pointed blue blossoms with yellow starbursts at the center of each. They marked in the book her favorite tale - that of Ser Galladon of Morne. And the blossoms themselves were the exact shade of her eyes. She’d been avoiding the truth when she told Sansa that she couldn’t recall the name of the flower Jaime had compared them to - she hadn’t wanted to inspire her sister’s romantic notions. But presented with them now, and in the privacy of her solitude, she could not deny her own notions. For if he’d meant to express indifference, why send her away with the book? And why press forget-me-nots between the pages?

[king-of-kings1]

Robert Baratheon - the one character fandom does not understand properly.

Okay, I've seen many arguments regarding asoiaf in almost all over the internet. Any network, any platform, name anything there will be some arguments between the fans. One of the most important and common fanfight I've ever seen is, Robert vs Rhaegar, morality one i.e who was the better man.

I've seen heavy arguments from either side, claiming the fav man is the best but I chose to stand on the neutral perspective and see who really is a better person and this will be my analysis of it.

So Robert Baratheon and Rhaegar Targaryen, two of the great names in the entire ASOIAF series. The fight between them extends in the fandoms in a long line. Obviously everyone can admit the Robert was the better warrior but who was the better human being?

Many fans seem to misunderstand Robert and tends to paint him as some heartless monster and a drunkard who is obsessed with a girl who does not loves him, who smiled at the corpses of children, who abused and raped his wife, who wanted to kill some innocent Targaryen children who had nothing to do with Rhaegar or Aerys. You see, these points are all the ones which comes round in a circle again and again to say that Robert was a bad human being but trust me, Robert is not bad, I would not even say him as a faulted character.

Robert is probably one of the only characters who was designed by his past trauma along with his brother Stannis. Robert comes off as a jolly man, easy to laugh and loving fun at every turn but the truth is, he has much sadness pressed up in him than his fun-loving attitude. When he was still a little boy he sees his parents die before his own eyes. Yes, that's right. He stands in some tower with Stannis and watches his father and mother die right before his eyes. Though there is no mentioning how the brothers reacted to it physically, one could easily imagine how it should've felt to watch your parents die right before your eyes and you could do nothing to save them. Imagine yourself in that position and how would you feel? Now that's where Robert finds hate towards the Targaryens for the first time because Steffon and Cassana Baratheon took the voyage only on Aerys' orders to find Rhaegar a bride with valyrian blood. See that, the names Aerys and Rhaegar comes in the death of his parents.

Then Robert was sent to be fostered in Eyrie and his time at Eyrie was his best with Jon Arryn becoming a very strong father figure to him and Ned as a brother from another mother. But still, he was young and was likely affected by the dreadful past memories (look how long years Ned was affected with the trauma of the war). So he turns to alcohol and women to help him forget like any normal man in his place would do. So no, he did not choose to be a drunkard or a playboy, he was forced to by his tragic past.

Then he is betrothed to Ned's sister, and is so happy of the fact that he and Ned will soon be brothers bound by blood but then again Rhaegar comes to shit on that like the same way he did with his parents and how do you expect him to behave? To smile and brush off as if nothing had happened. And then Aerys calls for his head and the head of the man he considers as his brother, he would normally be like, Well, Fuck you, asshole. You killed my parents, your son shits on me and my house's honor and now you want to kill me and my buddy, that's not how its gonna be. Fuck you, fuck your son, fuck your family. You can't blame him for that.

He has every right to be mad at the Targs. One way or another all the bitter things happened in Robert's life is connected with the Targaryens.

And he is just happy to build the realm back to glory with the woman he loved but then the last blow strikes with Lyanna's death. Lyanna's death completely destroyed him and all the plans he had for the realm. So yes, Robert loved Lyanna, whether it be the idea of her or anything else, Robert loved Lyanna and was not obsessed with her. The first thing he does after reaching Winterfell is to visit Lyanna, he even chastises Ned for burying her in such a cold dreary place and says that even in death she deserved better, better in such a manner that no one ever had before. Ned genuinely believes that Robert truly loved Lyanna. Did Robert truly knew Lyanna? We don't know, but the truth is Lyanna never wanted to know Robert, not the other way around. She just makes her own idea of him and never even tries to give him a chance. What a stupid does that? She doesn't likes his boyish ways but did she ever asked him to change that? How could she know he could never change without even giving him a chance?

He fights the war, because his life and the lives of all the others he'd loved is in danger. He fucks up Rhaegar, fucks up Aerys but really has nothing to do with Elia and her children's deaths because the deed was done before even he came to King's Landing. Yes, it was wrong that he laughed at the bodies of Targaryen children, but come on, look at it from his pov it shall feel right for him. And tbh, it was Rhaegar who left his wife and children there in the first place so he is responsible for their deaths more than Robert.

Coming back from that we'll compare the best and worsts Robert and Rhaegar. Rhaegar is really good. He is the perfect prince of Westeros and the small folk loved him. But what he did with Lyanna is inexcusable and make the entire realm turn against him and root for Robert. He leaves his wife and children in the grasp of his father.

Now some like to say Robert was no better to his wife than Rhaegar was to his. For them, Robert whispers the name Lyanna in Cersei's ear, yes, and that's because he was drunk with grief over Lyanna. He raped her, okay that thing is inexcusable but what about Rhaegar's approaches with Elia? The princess had a fragile nature and Rhaenys' birth was hard for her that it troubled the maesters that she might not be able to survive another birth. But Rhaegar who is so obsessed with the prophecy gets her with child again within a few years. Who is to say that Rhaegar never forced Elia? And it might've been the wine which made him force himself upon her because Robert immediately feels sorry for hurting her. And what about all of Rhaegar's public insults to Elia which Robert never does to Cersei? Robert had a chance to set aside Cersei and take Margaery as his queen by the hands of Renly, but no he never did that. He knew his wife hated him, was cold to him and still he never once tried to set her aside for another woman.

And Robert is a better king than Rhaegar. Now most like to say that Robert was a bad king and how he spent the realm's money in unwanted things. Say what you will but Robert was a better king than Rhaegar ever would've. The first and foremost duty of a king is to protect his kingdom and his people. While Rhaegar caused a war for his stupid prophecy and burned his kingdom down Robert did the exact opposite. Rhaegar stayed in the stupid tower when the war he started was raging across Westeros. But when Balon Greyjoy attacked his kingdom and threatened the peace of his people Robert takes action at once, defeats Balon and takes his son hostage to prevent any further wars. He holds the peace in his realm after two wars, Two Bloody Wars.

And yes, he gives up his hate for the Targaryens in his deathbed and gets his orders to kill Dany back.

Robert is a great character who is loved by his people, so much that they cheer for the douchebag Joffrey over Ned just because they think him to be Robert's son. Even Ser Barristan while in Dany's service regards Robert as his king and feels bad for failing him. He is such a character that Ned feels something dies within him when he hears about Robert's death, who else could make Ned feel that way.

So here it is, the end: Robert Baratheon is a good man and better than Rhaegar.

[kallypsowrites]

Are Adapted Characters Seperate from their Original Counterparts?

So here’s a post that has been on my mind for quite some time, partially because, after being in the Game of Thrones fandom pretty regularly, I see people compare the book and show characters a lot. This is understandable as changes through adaptation are inevitable and sometimes a character can be changed for the worse or for the better, depending on your preference. But today I want to address the question: should adapted characters be viewed as an EXTENSION of their book character or should they be able to stand on their own?

Before I get into the weeds of this argument, imagine you are me. I’m a seventeen year old high school student and my brother has decided to show me this rad new show which has already aired two seasons and is several months off of airing the third season. Game of Thrones. Naturally, I am excited and I dive right into watching with him. And of course I love it. I’m a fantasy nut and there’s magic and dragons but also POLITICS and really intriguing character dynamics and dialogue and moral grey areas. All the stuff I like! I know there are books of course, but I want to experience the show and be surprised as it comes out, so I hold off reading the books. In fact, I hold off reading the series all the way through until after season seven airs (in an effort to make the long wait for season 8 less painful. It didn’t work. I read too fast).

What’s important here is that for several years, the show was my ONLY CONCEPT of all of these characters. The book versions, to me, didn’t exist. All I had access to was the characters on the screen. And that’s all many of the GA has access too. Let’s face it, the books are bricks and, for that matter, dense. A lot of people aren’t going to take the time to read them, especially the strangely paced and structured book four and five. So what does that mean? The characters on the screen have to stand on their own. And therefore, you can easily argue that the onscreen characters are seperate entities.

There’s been a lot of talk in the fandom about the show creators white washing male characters and ‘greying’ female characters. That is certainly an issue worth talking about and I’m not trying to discourage that conversation, nor am I trying to say that we shouldn’t talk about adaptation changes and focus on the books and tv show as different entities. They are in conversation with each other. But I do want to address the fact that just because something is present in the book does not mean that watchers of the tv show have to acknowledge it as ‘canon’...especially if the show never mentions it. They are, in many ways, seperate, particularly since the TV show has moved ahead of the books.

Conversely, this means the TV show can’t rely on the books as part of their ‘canon’ to take short cuts. Because if it isn’t made clear in the show and can only be understood by a book reader, then the show has failed in some way. The TV show has, in fact, dropped the ball on a couple of prophesies in this way. The fact that they did not include the ‘valonqar’ section of Cersei’s prophesy takes away from her reasons for hating Tyrion and, for that matter, doesn’t guaruntee either of her brothers will be her killer. It wasn’t in the prophesy in the show, so it really doesn’t matter if it was in the books. Its not part of show canon.

Even more egregious is Mirri Maz Dur’s prophesy to Daenerys. In the books, she says that Daenerys will never bare a living child again. In the show, she does not say anything of the sort. And yet Dany says to Jon that ‘the witch who murdered her husband’ said she would never bare a child again. That’s the show straight up making something up for cheap forshadowing and if the casual watcher went back to view the first season they might be understandably confused. Even if it happens in the book IT MUST BE PRESENT IN THE SHOW in order to effect the show.

This applies to character interpretation as well. And as an example, let’s talk about Tyrion.

The Moral White Washing of Tyrion Lannister

Tyrion Lannister is one of the most commonly cited characters in the conversation about moral white washing, and with good reason. Tyrion is never the best person, but he’s certainly not the worst. Being born a dwarf, he is an underdog who has been ridiculed all his life. But he’s also his father’s son and spends much of the series manipulating people in order to gain power in King’s Landing or elsewhere. It just happens that he is a better person than a lot of the other characters surrounding him. It’s not that he’s not sympathetic, but he’s not an angel.

He, however, has a much darker character arc following the death of his father and his Essos stuff, in particular, really delves into the dark corners of his mind. His father’s cruelty shows itself more than ever and being in his head is almost difficult. In the show, this Essos arc is effectively deleted. Tyrion never meets Young Griff, never meets Illyrio, spends much less time wallowing in the darkness, and actually meets Daenerys pretty dang quickly. And, considering the fact that we’re not in his head, we’re not really exposed to any of his thoughts. It’s left to us to decide how he feels about the situation based on Peter Dinklage’s acting.

But the most contested aspect of Tyrion’s character is his relationship with Sansa and how he treats her throughout the books vs the show. In the books, Tyrion  thinks often about how he is attracted to her. Honestly, it’s uncomfortable at many points, considering that Sansa is like...twelve. And he straight up molests her. He doesn’t rape her on their wedding night, but I don’t think we would call him person of the year for that. He sees an opportunity in being married to her and he’s not completely repulsed by the idea.

In the show, it’s a very different story. Tyrion protects Sansa from Joffrey before their engagement (and even from the Hound in a deleted scene), and his kindness to her does not seem to be motivated in any way by attraction. When he is engaged to her, he is very clearly repulsed, and it is painted much more like him being forced into it. He does not make any physical advances on her and in his scenes with Shae, he makes clear that he sees her as a child and is therefore not interested. Again, because we are not in his head, he are able to interpret this at face value if we prefer. That he isn’t attracted to her and is only doing this to satisfy his father.

At the wedding, he prevents the bedding and, while making a few very crude comments in order to play off threatening the king, does not touch Sansa. Does not even let her undress all the way before he says that they don’t have to do this. And he really doesn’t seem all that bitter about it. Because we don’t have access to his thoughts, we never hear him lamenting that his child bride will never want him.

All of Tyrion’s interactions with Sansa on the show, especially after their marriage, are that of someone trying to make a girl’s life slightly more tolerable even though she is a prisoner. He sympathizes with her and is genuinely horrified by her situation. And he never makes a move even once or complains about it. Because she’s a child. It’s easy for show only watchers to come out of watching this relationship with the opinion of: yeah. Tyrion’s a decent guy. Even though it would be expected and accepted in this society for him to press Sansa, he doesn’t, and that’s cool of him. I’m in NO WAY saying that this means Sansa owes him anything. He’s a Lannister and the Lannisters destroyed her family and if she doesn’t want him, she doesn’t want him. End of story. But Tyrion is, overall, a more sympathetic and better person for how he is portrayed in the show. And you can’t blame show only watchers for seeing him in that way.

Of course this is a double edged sword. In the books, it seems that Tyrion is headed toward some sort of dark/tragic end, and his darker personality earns this. But if the show wants to give him the same ending it might seem very jarring. Because the show has not earned making Tyrion a villain. It has not given him an arc that makes that narratively satisfying because of the white washing. Now maybe Tyrion will get a perfectly find ending or at least remain as a hero. It’s possible that he could have some sort of redemption in the books as well. But we’ll have to wait until season 8 to see how that ends up.

There are a lot of characters that have diverged from their show counterparts. Lena Heady has imbued Cersei Lannister with some very genuinely sympathetic moments and the pathos she brings to her role has moved me on multiple occasions. She also plays Cersei as more in control than she seems in the books, very much her father’s daughter. The book, again, has Cersei’s thoughts and we get a view into her increasingly unstable and paranoid brain. The two characters feel very seperate from each other so conversations and interpretations may vary depend on the version.

The whole ‘lack of thoughts’ thing also makes Jaime easier to stomach in the show. Many of his thoughts are shocking and kind of vile in the books. Nikolaj gives Jaime more pathos and softens him. Again, maybe it’s moral white washing, but you cannot blame a show only watcher for that (like me, who fell in love with Jaime long before I even touched the books). I know people like that Jaime got away from Cersei in the books but that was much more motivated by his own jealousy as opposed to any moral problems he has with her actions, and abandoning her to suffer at the hands of the high sparrow always left a sort of sour taste in my mouth. And I say this as a JaimexBrienne shipper, which I’ll talk about later on. But first--

The Greying of Daenerys

@rainhadaenerys made a pretty extensive post on the differences between show and book Dany which I’ll link here . It’s highly show critical so bear that in mind, but one of the things she mentions is that Daenerys is consistently made more impulsive, less competent and ‘greyer’ as a character. There is a more of a sense, especially in season seven, that she must be ‘controlled’ by her advisors and she rarely makes plans of her own but rather listens to other make plans and decides based off of that. Lots of valid points made in this post.

But if we were to interpret the show only and look at Daenerys as a character seperate from her very different book counterpart, it begins to make sense why the dark dany theory became so popular, especially after season seven. I’m not going to argue my stance on that theory here, but suffice it to say there are a lot of show!dany characteristics that COULD potentially lend themselves to a tragic fall from grace. Though you could make the argument that this is just a writing error on D&D’s, that does not make the interpretation invalid. One could just as easily argue that yes, the transistion is clumsy but that George will write an even better and more believable fall from grace. Again, not saying it will happen. I know a lot of people on all sides of the debate following. I’m just saying that you can’t blame people for differing interpretations based on the show alone.

Posts like the one linked above are great for thinking about the show in context of what it is adapted from. But in a New Critical reading (which focuses on the text itself), we could analyze the show only to extrapolate that perhaps Daenerys is not going to be the hero everyone expects. It’s equally possible to extrapolate that she will be the hero and I’ve written a post here on the various interpretations of Dany so I won’t go too in to detail on this post. But it’s just another example of a show character needing to stand on their own seperate from the books.

The Inconsistency of Arya

Sometimes an adapted character is different from their book counterpart. And sometimes they are inconsistent in their own adaptation. Such is the case of Arya Stark. She’s one of my favorite characters and despite the butchering of her Braavos arc, I still took a lot out of her stuff there when I first watched it. Watching Arya struggle to hold onto her name and her very identity is quite emotional. For the most part, show! Arya might be a bit different but she’s consistent with herself.

Except for fucking season seven? Arya’s arc with Sansa featured some truly trash dialogue (from both characters but especially Arya). And I have nothing against these characters clashing. Far from it. It makes sense for their to be tension. But it was very bad tension and Arya literally threatening to murder her sister and steal her face was one of the more ‘what’ moments of the show.

I bring this up to say that while it is valid to interpret a character based only on their show version, sometimes there is still bad writing within that version that one has to...deal with. And it’s important for a character to be consistent within it’s story.

There are other examples of this besides Arya’s season seven stuff. The Dorne bullshit, for instance, is the canon show Dorne stuff and all of the intriguing Dorne stuff in the book is irrelevant to a show interpretation.

And then there was that trashy season four scene where the directors UNKNOWINGLY filmed Jaime raping Cersei?? That was especially out of character for show Jaime and apparently the show runners thought so too because they didn’t even think they were filming a rape scene. Because they’re dumb sometimes.

Anyway, this is just in here to assure you that I’m not forbidding ‘the show has bad writing’ criticisms because it super does. But sometimes you don’t even need to compare it to the book to see that.

In Conclusion

We are ALL going to view media in different way. There is no right way to consume it. And certainly if you want to evaluate the show based on what happened in the books go right ahead. I’m not here to force anyone to read the show or the books in a certain way.

On the other hand, in some way, the show and books are seperate entities that must function on their own. And because they are so different in some ways, that makes for more differing opinions. Some people really like Tyrion because of his show verse self. Some people wonder if Daenerys will go dark based on her show self.

Me personally, I’m a big Jaime and Brienne shipper. The other day I saw someone who didn’t like their ship mention the power imbalance and age gap in the book--something I of course didn’t notice during the show because the two characters seemed close in age and on pretty equal footing with each other most of the time. And that person’s opinion is totally valid! We’re just both viewing the pairing through a different medium.

This got a little long and rambly, so I just want to throw out there that this not anti any particular character. Just another one of those, it’s okay to have differing opinions and biases and stuff. Enjoy your Game of Thrones, nerds! I’ll be right there along with you!