#the maester anti magic conspiracy

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hello, what is goetd super race theory?

In the world of ASOIAF, the Golden Empire of Yi Ti, far to the east, is a pretty blatant expy of China. One of their myths -- and it is only their myth, nobody else's -- is the Great Empire of the Dawn, the legendary empire that preceded their own. The Yi Ti imperial dynasties are named after colors (for example, Lo Tho, Lo Duq, Lo Han, and Lo Bu were Scarlet Emperors), but their mythological ancestors were named after various gemstones. The Great Empire is pretty obviously based on the Chinese myth of the Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors, and is perfectly straightforward worldbuilding. There's some interest to current ASOIAF since the end of the Great Empire of the Dawn is connected to Yi Ti's legends of the Long Night, and since the Pearl Emperor established the Five Forts (a historical echo of the Wall and likely serving a similar purpose), but that's about all that's really relevant.

However. Because Dany's dream of her Targaryen ancestors used gemstone colors to describe their eyes, a theory has been built up that the Great Empire of the Dawn was not merely Yi Ti (Chinese) mythology, but the ancestors of Valyrians from millenia ago. According to the theory, this master race also founded House Hightower and House Dayne and thus they look Chinese no wait sorry they're all silver-gold haired and purple eyes except they're not, like you'd think if those particular traits were meant to be relevant for House Hightower they would have been mentioned once in all of ASOIAF (excluding Alerie Hightower, who's in her 40s and thus her silver hair may just be prematurely grey).

I find this theory to unfortunately echo various "master race" elements of Theosophy and Nazi race science, in addition to erasing the actual our-world cultural inspiration of the Great Empire. (This sort of thing is why an artist decided to make the Maiden-Made-of-Light, a Yi Ti goddess, a blonde white girl and based on Selene, instead of, idk, Ameratsu or Doumu.) I really truly dislike the theory and everything connected with it, and the fact that it's all built up over a misreading of one line makes it all the more frustrating to me. Like, I don't care for a particular theory Youtuber for most of his crack nonsense, among other reasons, but this one is especially bad.

Of course, the fact that House Hightower also gets hit with the Citadel-related southron ambitions theory and maester anti-magic conspiracy theory, which do have some standing, but have been blown up by paranoid ASOIAF video theorists on youtube and Tiktok to make them the eugenical secret breeders of all the noble houses and the secret reason for anything bad that ever happened to House Targaryen ever and the manipulators of all historical texts so the only true facts are the ones that put your blorbos in a good light, to the point that I've started calling this paranoia "the Protocols of the Elders of Hightower" -- anyway, the fact the Hightowers have these diametrically opposed fan theories attached to them, is something I'd find hilarious if it didn't depress me so much about fandom. 🤷‍♀️

[vivacissimx]

Heyy hope you're well. Ignore this if you want but I'm curious, do you believe in the Maester Conspiracy?

Let me take this step by step. Long post incoming but you asked, so:

WELCOME TO VIVACISSIMX'S CONCLUSIVE POST ON THE MAESTER CONSPIRACY!!!

The Maester Conspiracy is the theory that the maesters of the citadel work in concert with one another to effect certain political ends in line with their longstanding designs for Westeros — including a specific aim to hamper the existence/return of magic via living dragons.

The only dragontamers during the times of Fire & Blood and ASOIAF are Targaryens, so it ties together as: the maesters have sought to limit/manipulate/end Targaryen rule because they are anti-magic for reasons known best to them.

Do I believe in this? Textually it's pretty clear that this phenomenon exists.

FIRST: REASONS THE MAESTER CONSPIRACY IS DEFINITELY ACTUALLY FACTUALLY REAL

ONE: Multiple characters from different backgrounds tell us so.

Pycelle’s breathing was rapid and shallow. “All I did, I did for House Lannister.” A sheen of sweat covered the broad dome of the old man’s brow, and wisps of white hair clung to his wrinkled skin. “Always.. for years... your lord father, ask him, I was ever his true servant... ’twas I who bid Aerys open his gates... ” That took Tyrion by surprise. He had been no more than an ugly boy at Casterly Rock when the city fell. “So the Sack of King’s Landing was your work as well?” “For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king... I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly... ” “How many have you betrayed, I wonder? Aerys, Eddard Stark, me... King Robert as well? Lord Arryn, Prince Rhaegar? Where does it begin, Pycelle?”

—ACOK, Tyrion VI + emphasis mine

[Archmaester] Marywn smiled a ghastly smile, the juice of the sourleaf running red between his teeth. “Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”

—AFFC, Samwell V

Why can't Archmaester Marwyn be trusted? Since it's the same reason Aemon can't be trusted?

"Archmaester Marwyn's Book of Lost Books." [Rodrik Harlaw] lifted his gaze from the page to study her. "Hotho brought me a copy from Oldtown. He has a daughter he would have me wed." Lord Rodrik tapped the book with a long nail. "See here? Marwyn claims to have found three pages of Signs and Portents, visions written down by the maiden daughter of Aenar Targaryen before the Doom came to Valyria.

—AFFC, The Kraken's Daughter

His interest in Targaryen prophecy, perhaps? (Aemon is also seen to have said interest, corresponding with Rhaegar Targaryen on the matter.)

[Barbrey Ryswell:] "[Maesters] heal, yes. I never said they were not subtle. They tend to us when we are sick and injured, or distraught over the illness of a parent or a child. Whenever we are weakest and most vulnerable, there they are. Sometimes they heal us, and we are duly grateful. When they fail, they console us in our grief, and we are grateful for that as well. Out of gratitude we give them a place beneath our roof and make them privy to all our shames and secrets, a part of every council. And before too long, the ruler has become the ruled. "That was how it was with Lord Rickard Stark. Maester Walys was his grey rat's name. And isn't it clever how the maesters go by only one name, even those who had two when they first arrived at the Citadel? That way we cannot know who they truly are or where they come from… but if you are dogged enough, you can still find out. Before he forged his chain, Maester Walys had been known as Walys Flowers. Flowers, Hill, Rivers, Snow… we give such names to baseborn children to mark them for what they are, but they are always quick to shed them. Walys Flowers had a Hightower girl for a mother… and an archmaester of the Citadel for a father, it was rumored. The grey rats are not as chaste as they would have us believe. Oldtown maesters are the worst of all. Once he forged his chain, his secret father and his friends wasted no time dispatching him to Winterfell to fill Lord Rickard's ears with poisoned words as sweet as honey. The Tully marriage was his notion, never doubt it, he—"

—ADWD, The Prince of Winterfell

Please note these quotes touch on some of the largest political shifts to occur in Westeros. From germinating the idea of alliances between Great Houses in the mind of Rickard Stark who later betrothed/fostered his children to the Arryns of the Vale, the Tullys of the Riverlands, and the Baratheons of the Stormlands; to the Sack of King's Landing; to the circumstances around the Great Council that named Aegon V the Unlikely as king. I am not saying the Citadel was the sole mastermind behind all of these events, or even that maesters all act as one without their own interests/personalities guiding them... but more on that later.

TWO: The Glass Candle test.

Glass candles are obsidian—dragonglass— candles that apparently only burn when magic (see: dragons) exists in the world. Daenerys Targaryen has been hearing about these glass candles for a while now.

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails.

—ACOK, Daenerys V

Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

—ADWD, Daenerys II

Read: What Quaithe tells Daenerys here is that because the glass candles are burning, people (powerful, dangerous, with their own designs in mind) are becoming aware of her dragons. It means they're coming and Daenerys needs to be cautious of them.

And who is watching the glass candles?

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper… only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.” “Yes.” Pate had heard the same stories. “But what’s the use of a candle that casts no light?” “It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains.

—AFFC, Prologue (Pate)

So, the Citadel has this tradition that every single guy ever to graduate from their school has to at least be aware of the glass candles, which basically serves the purpose of letting them know whether or not there are dragons in the world. Okay, fine, it's a lesson on failure, sure. What's interesting is that this mystical and compelling lesson on failure can only be as old as the death of the last dragon in 153 AC, otherwise they'd all be able to light the candles. So it began at most 147 years ago.

Notably, for years after the death of the last dragon, various Targaryens attempted to hatch more.

So what is the true purpose of the Glass Candle test? Why would the Citadel have a convenient means of knowing immediately if a new dragon was hatched/magic was returning, despite ostensibly having a Grand Maester on every single Targaryen King's Small Council ever?

What was their investment?

THREE: It aligns with the actions/beliefs of the maesters we see on-page.

Old Cressen might be, yet he was still a maester of the Citadel. “I need no crown but truth,” he told her, removing the fool’s helm from his head. “There are truths in this world that are not taught at Oldtown.” [...] As he sank to his knees, still he shook his head, denying [Melisandre], denying her power, denying her magic, denying her god. And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red red eyes.

—ACOK, Prologue (Maester Cressen)

[Maester Luwin:] "Perhaps magic was once a mighty force in the world, but no longer. What little remains is no more than the wisp of smoke that lingers in the air after a great fire has burned out, and even that is fading. Valyria was the last ember, and Valyria is gone. The dragons are no more, the giants are dead, the children of the forest forgotten with all their lore.

—ACOK, Bran IV

Note: Maester Luwin actually has a Valyrian Steel chain and has attempted to do magic but by the end of his Citadel studies, he no longer believed in such. Due to his own failure to harness it, yes, but perhaps also due to his teachings under the archmaesters at the time.

Alleras stepped up next to Sam. "Aemon would have gone to [Daenerys] if he had the strength. He wanted us to send a maester to her, to counsel her and protect her and fetch her safely home." "Did he?" Archmaester Marwyn shrugged. "Perhaps it's good that he died before he got to Oldtown. Elsewise the grey sheep might have had to kill him, and that would have made the poor old dears wring their wrinkled hands."

—AFFC, Samwell V

FOUR: Citadel Maesters are super into dragons in general, perhaps a bit too into them, you be the judge.

In what place, if any, has there been an accumulation of dragonlore? Valyria. The Citadel. Dragonstone. Probably some of the Free Cities as well. Maybe Asshai in the far east.

—So Spake Martin, May 2000 (the Citadel clocking in at #2, technically #1, considering RIPValyria)

[H]e brushed the dirt off Colloquo Votar's Jade Compendium, a thick volume of tales and legends from the east that Maester Aemon had commanded him to find. The book appeared undamaged. Maester Thomax's Dragonkin, Being a History of House Targaryen from Exile to Apotheosis, with a Consideration of the Life and Death of Dragons had not been so fortunate. It had come open as it fell, and a few pages had gotten muddy, including one with a rather nice picture of Balerion the Black Dread done in colored inks. Sam cursed himself for a clumsy oaf

—AFFC, Samwell I

Tyrion had read much and more of dragons through the years. The greater part of those accounts were idle tales and could not be relied on, and the books that Illyrio had provided them were not the ones he might have wished for. What he really wanted was the complete text of The Fires of the Freehold, Galendro's history of Valyria. No complete copy was known to Westeros, however; even the Citadel's lacked twenty-seven scrolls. They must have a library in Old Volantis, surely. I may find a better copy there, if I can find a way inside the Black Walls to the city's heart.

He was less hopeful concerning Septon Barth’s Dragons, Wyrms, and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. Barth had been a blacksmith’s son who rose to be King’s Hand during the reign of Jaehaerys the Conciliator. His enemies always claimed he was more sorcerer than septon. Baelor the Blessed had ordered all Barth’s writings destroyed when he came to the Iron Throne. Ten years ago, Tyrion had read a fragment of Unnatural History that had eluded the Blessed Baelor, but he doubted that any of Barth’s work had found its way across the narrow sea. And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.

When the Halfmaester appeared on deck, yawning, the dwarf was writing down what he recalled concerning the mating habits of dragons, on which subject Barth, Munkun, and Thomax held markedly divergent views.

—ADWD, Tyrion IV

Maesters who have written on dragons: Munkun, Grand Maester to Aegon III The Dragonbane whose efforts to revive the dragons all failed - he wrote True Telling about the Dance of the Dragons as well; Thomax, unknown time; and Anonymous, who wrote a real banger that the world isn't ready for, apparently. This last one will come into play later.

There is also Truth by Maester Anson, cited in AWOIAF, which is only mentioned insofar as it disagrees with Septon Barth's statement that dragons can switch sex.

So there are at least four books written by maesters on dragons, and more that the Citadel library has collected from the world over!

(The books by Thomax and Anonymous, while both being titled The Death of Dragons, are confirmed not the same.)

There is potentially one more, if the unnamed tome Arianne encounters is unique:

During the daylight hours she would try to read, but the books that they had given her were deadly dull: ponderous old histories and geographies, annotated maps, a dry-as-dust study of the laws of Dorne, The Seven-Pointed Star and Lives of the High Septons, a huge tome about dragons that somehow made them about as interesting as newts.

—AFFC, The Princess in the Tower

In summary: the Citadel's investment in dragons/magic is rigorous, a matter serious enough that they lock knowledge on it away in a vault, in order to take a maester's vows you must undergo a test that disavows magic's existence, there are maesters willing to die to deny arcane arts, potentially maesters willing to kill for that too. To a man, maesters dismiss magic... but are they actively engineering it's downfall?

This is where it gets murky. I myself would say that they take advantage of circumstances to have others do their dirty work. That maesters seek to preserve the status quo but also manipulate it to serve their own ends. Which brings us to the next point

SECOND: HOW THE MAESTER CONSPIRACY FUNCTIONS IN ASOIAF (POSSIBLY)

In ASOIAF timeline, the dragons are all already dead and magic is subdued. As a result, the winters are longer and the summers are shorter, another thing the Citadel is deeply concerned with, being the people who officially announce the changings of the seasons.

As established, we know of Pycelle's involvement in opening King's Landing for Tywin after Rhaegar died — this is where the concept of maester's having differing motives and personal loyalties comes up.

Pycelle is a pretty clear case study, he's both deeply loyal, as a maester of the Citadel, to preserving a nominal peace regardless of the dishonorable & murderous ends required to do so... but he also personally is loyal to Tywin Lannister, who is his ideal ruler.

In a letter to the Citadel, Pycelle wrote that the divisions within the Red Keep [between Aerys and Rhaegar] reminded him uncomfortably of the situation before the Dance of the Dragons a century before, when the enmity between Queen Alicent and Princess Rhaenyra had split the realm in two, to grievous cost

—AWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II

Grand Maester Pycelle cleared his throat, a process that seemed to take some minutes. "My order serves the realm, not the ruler. Once I counseled King Aerys as loyally as I counsel King Robert now, so I bear this girl child of his no ill will. Yet I ask you this—should war come again, how many soldiers will die? How many towns will burn? How many children will be ripped from their mothers to perish on the end of a spear?" He stroked his luxuriant white beard, infinitely sad, infinitely weary. "Is it not wiser, even kinder, that Daenerys Targaryen should die now so that tens of thousands might live?"

—AGOT, Eddard VIII

“For the realm! Once Rhaegar died, the war was done. Aerys was mad, Viserys too young, Prince Aegon a babe at the breast, but the realm needed a king... I prayed it should be your good father, but Robert was too strong, and Lord Stark moved too swiftly... ”

—ACOK, Tyrion VI

We know from the books of the unswerving Pycelle's loyalty to the Lannister and precisely to Lord Tywin. Why this loyalty? Was there any event we don't know yet?

There´s backstory yet to be revealed, certainly, but if you asked Pycelle he would insist that he was acting in the best interests of the realm.

—FORUM: Asshai Chat July 27, 2008

It's possible that Pycelle's advice given to Aerys was personally motivated by his own political beliefs on who was best suited to rule & his acceptance that the war was already over, so he needed to get out on the winning side. GRRM has hinted that there's more to the story.

It's additionally possible that Maester Walys, Rickard Stark's maester born from a Hightower mother and an alleged archmaester father, was advising Rickard on making alliances down south simply because that's what he thought was smart politicking.

However, it's interesting that multiple maesters were involved in arranging the chess board of power in Westeros against House Targaryen, and, now, are shown to be aligned to preserve power in the hands of... the Lannisters. More accurately, I would say they seek to preserve whoever is a) currently in power and b) amenable to a maester's advice and manipulation. More on this when we get to Stannis.

Now, Pycelle is personally loyal to the Lannisters because that is what he thinks is in "the best interests of the realm," but otherwise, maesters in general are invested in preserving the power structure as is, because war disrupts their slowgoing machinations (Marwyn's words: the world the Citadel is building). In fact, as the Lannisters infight throughout ACOK and become unstable, only to be saved by an alliance with the Tyrells, there is a response from the Citadel that indicates they're willing to switch to whoever is the dominant side, it if means protecting their influence.

[T]he Conclave accepted the fact of Pycelle's dismissal and set about choosing his successor. After giving due consideration to Maester Turquin the cordwainer's son and Maester Erreck the hedge knight's bastard, and thereby demonstrating to their own satisfaction that ability counts for more than birth in their order, the Conclave was on the verge of sending us Maester Gormon, a Tyrell of Highgarden. When I told your lord father, he acted at once." The Conclave met in Oldtown behind closed doors, Tyrion knew; its deliberations were supposedly a secret. So Varys has little birds in the Citadel too. "I see. So my father decided to nip the rose before it bloomed." He had to chuckle. "Pycelle is a toad. But better a Lannister toad than a Tyrell toad, no?"

—ASOS, Tyrion II

Before we get into cartoon villain territory, let's caveat that their involvement in the deaths of the dragons and the Targaryens who could potentially hatch them once more does seem to be a one-off for them in terms of puppet-mastering against a monarch, and indeed, they never intended war, preferring to function methodically in the background.

"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel.

—ADWD, Davos I

They maximize their influence — they don't overstep.

On to Stannis.

[Alys Karstark:] "Arnolf [Karstark] is rushing to Winterfell, 'tis true, but only so he might put his dagger in your king's back. He cast his lot with Roose Bolton long ago … for gold, the promise of a pardon, and poor Harry's head. Lord Stannis is marching to a slaughter.

—ADWD, Jon IX

“Y-your Grace, my order is sworn to serve, we…” “I know all about your vows. What I want to know is what was in the letter that you sent to Winterfell. Did you perchance tell Lord Bolton where to find us?” “S-sire.” Round-shouldered Tybald drew himself up proudly. “The rules of my order forbid me to divulge the contents of Lord Arnolf’s letters.”

—TWOW, Unreleased Theon Chapter

Here we have Arnolf Karstark, castellan of Karhold, who pledges to Stannis... but secretly he's actually pledged to Roose Bolton, who is in league with the Lannisters. Together they planned the Red Wedding. The Karstark maester is seen assisting in this plot to see Stannis dead via the Karstark-Bolton-Lannister network.

Does Stannis have his own maester with him? No, Maester Cressen dies in the ACOK Prologue, and his replacement, Pylos, is not mentioned as having accompanied Stannis North. Stannis is far from the influence of the Citadel and has publicly declared his new faith in R'hllor, something for the Citadel/general Westerosi hegemony to worry about, and now we have a maester helping to plot against him...

Once more, it's possible that said maester is simply acting of his own volitions & values. Conveniently in service to House Lannister which currently holds power. However, he's not the only Northern maester to have conflicting loyalties South:

[Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor:] If Stannis wonders that my letters say so little, it is because I dare not even trust my maester. Theomore is all head and no heart. You heard him in my hall. Maesters are supposed to put aside old loyalties when they don their chains, but I cannot forget that Theomore was born a Lannister of Lannisport and claims some distant kinship to the Lannisters of Casterly Rock. Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos.

—ADWD, Davos IV

Something to consider.

THIRD: ADDRESSING THE FERTILITY OF TARGARYEN WOMEN

Let's take it back for a minute. I'm separating this section because a whole bunch of it comes from AWOIAF/Fire & Blood and I know not everyone is super familiar with those, so I'm taking time to explain it fully. A big facet of the Maester Conspiracy has to do with magic and dragons ergo House Targaryen. We have covered the Aerys/Pycelle, Maester Aemon, and Daenerys portions.

But there is a larger relevant point: The miscarriages and stillbirths of Targaryen women.

From AGOT we know that the birth of dragons is tied to blood magic, but specifically, that magic which is performed by Daenerys — a pregnant Targaryen. She has prophetic visions both asleep and awake that lead her to the final hatching of the dragons... and it's the deaths of Rhaego in her womb, Drogo by her hand, and Mirri by her order that facilitate this.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her… as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

—AGOT, Daenerys IV

"You will not hear me scream," Mirri responded as the oil dripped from her hair and soaked her clothing. "I will," Dany said, "but it is not your screams I want, only your life. I remember what you told me. Only death can pay for life."

—AGOT, Daenerys X

So, let's posit that there is some matriarchal link between fertility, motherhood, and births... even of dragons.

The theory here is that maesters, operating under the idea that Targaryen wives's fertility was somehow related to the blood magics/births of dragons, meddled with their pregnancies to prevent said magics/births of dragons.

The reason the maesters may have suspected this? Well according to AGOT and Fire & Blood, at certain times, Targaryen women/wives experienced miscarriages of fetuses that were "monstrous." Dragonlike, some might describe them (some being me, in the following list) — so the contention that the women of House Targaryen were magically involved in literal dragon-birthing does seem possible.

The miscarriages in question:

1A) Maegor Targaryen and Alys Harroway's stillborn: a monster, with twisted limbs, a huge head, and no eyes.

1B) The hatchling born to Alyn Velaryon and Baela Targaryen's daughter Laena: the dragon that wriggled from the egg was a monstrosity, a wingless wyrm, maggot-white and blind

2A) Maegor and Jeyne Westerling's stillborn: a legless and armless creature possessed of both male and female genitalia → eventual death in childbirth

2B) Maester Aemon in AFFC Samwell IV: Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame

3A) Maegor and Elinor Costayne's stillborn: a malformed and stillborn child, an eyeless boy born with rudimentary wings

3B) In The Hedge Knight, the last dragon to ever live is described as small with unformed wings

4A) Daemon Targaryen and Laena Velaryon's stillborn: the babe was twisted and malformed, and died within the hour → eventual death in childbirth

4B) Laena's stillbirth unique because it's implied that Rhaenyra's maester, Gerardys, who arrived slightly too late, might have been able to assist in saving Laena's life following the birth — the same way he was able to save Viserys I's hand and life when other maesters couldn't. Thus, incompetence or malice on the part of the present maester might have contributed to Laena's death.

5A) Daemon and Rhaenyra Targaryen's stillborn Visenya, Rhaenyra's early labor brought on by the news of her father's death and her usurpation by Aegon II:

The princess shrieked curses all through her labor, calling down the wrath of the gods upon her half-brothers and their mother, the queen, and detailing the torments she would inflict upon them before she would let them die. She cursed the child inside her too, Mushroom tells us, clawing at her swollen belly as Maester Gerardys and her midwife tried to restrain her and shouting, “Monster, monster, get out, get out, GET OUT!” When the babe at last came forth, she proved indeed a monster: a stillborn girl, twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been, and a stubby, scaled tail.

—Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons: The Blacks and the Greens

5B) Rhaenyra's usurpation by Aegon II is a parallel to the usurpation of the Amethyst Empress by her younger brother the Bloodstone Emperor, in the ancient Great Empire of the Dawn. This is said to have been what caused the first Long Night to occur and indeed, after Rhaenyra, we see the dragons die out, magic disappear, summers grow short, and winter grow long.

When the daughter of the Opal Emperor succeeded him as the Amethyst Empress, her envious younger brother cast her down and slew her, proclaiming himself the Bloodstone Emperor and beginning a reign of terror. [...] In the annals of the Further East, it was the Blood Betrayal, as his usurpation is named, that ushered in the age of darkness called the Long Night.

—AWOIAF, The Bones and Beyond: Yi Ti

6) Naerys Targaryen's multiple miscarriages/stillbirths vs. 2 living children → eventual death in childbirth

7) Rhaella Targaryen's 8 miscarriages/stillbirths/child deaths vs. 3 living children → eventual death in childbirth

8) Daenerys with Rhaego:

"Monstrous," Mirri Maz Duur finished for him. The knight was a powerful man, yet Dany understood in that moment that the maegi was stronger, and crueler, and infinitely more dangerous. "Twisted. I drew him forth myself. He was scaled like a lizard, blind, with the stub of a tail and small leather wings like the wings of a bat. When I touched him, the flesh sloughed off the bone, and inside he was full of graveworms and the stink of corruption. He had been dead for years." Darkness, Dany thought. The terrible darkness sweeping up behind to devour her. If she looked back she was lost. "My son was alive and strong when Ser Jorah carried me into this tent," she said. "I could feel him kicking, fighting to be born."

—AGOT, Daenerys IX

With these in mind, we can ask: why would anyone think these similar descriptions have anything to do with outside interference? Couldn't it just be that Targaryen babies are weird, it's the blood magic and the incest, nothing to see here?

The thing is that all of Maegor's stillborn children (3/6 examples of dragonesque children) were poisoned, by Tyanna of the Tower. Rhaego was also poisoned, by Mirri Maaz Duur's blood magic.

So 4/6 of these hybrid children were born under the influence of some sort of darker magic. This still leaves Rhaenyra and Laena's respective draconic stillbirths. It opens the question of whether poison was involved in those, too. In my personal opinion, it might also intend to raise a question mark on the matrilineage of Targaryen women who birthed children & brought about dragons — a private theory but raised by the idea of Rhaego's description and the concept of him being "dead for years."

That said, the two serious cases I think we can look into here are Naerys and Rhaella's serial miscarriages/stillbirths/child deaths.

Both these women suffered from frail health and abusive circumstances. Naerys was extremely slight and small of stature, it's possible that she simply struggled with the physical toll of pregnancies. Rhaella gave birth for the first time under traumatic circumstances (the burning of Summerhall and deaths of her family) when she was 14 years old, totally reasonable that she'd be permanently affected by that. In fact, these are two women for whom it would not be suspicious should they experience fertility issues. So if there were ever two people who you could get away with pulling this on...

The reasons to consider each more closely —

NAERYS TARGARYEN: Naerys's successful birth of Daeron (later Daeron II) happened the same year the last dragon died. After this, King Aegon III The Dragonbane started attempting to hatch new dragons whereas before he was extremely resistant to dragon-anything. Naerys's miscarriages and stillbirths begin only after attempts to hatch dragons commence — a likely time, if a link between her fertility and future dragons was suspected by bad actors. Her only other living child Daenerys Lateborn is born 17 years later, and in fact is one of a set of twins, the other child dying at birth. So, it's possible that pregnancy was also tampered with, and simply did not succeed on both twins

Counterpoint One: Naerys was not a healthy or robust person, nor did she desire to carry children. They were forced on her by her purposely cruel brother-husband Aegon IV. It's possible she was not poisoned and simply suffered from miscarriages/stillbirths naturally.

Counterpoint Two: Naerys was married to a man who had many mistresses, lovers, bastards, and grasping councilors. It's possible that she was poisoned, but not by maesters, rather by those who sought to gain power by opening up the position of Queen.

RHAELLA TARGARYEN: Aerys and Rhaella were married to one another based on a prophecy by the Ghost of High Heart that through them, The Prince/Princess That Was Promised would be born.

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?" "Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

—ADWD, Daenerys IV

"Maester Aemon believed that Daenerys Targaryen was the fulfillment of a prophecy... her, not Stannis, nor Prince Rhaegar, nor the princeling whose head was dashed against the wall." "Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor.

—AFFC, Samwell V

Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid

—The Hedge Knight

The prophecy is known to at least one maester of the Citadel... seems realistic that it would be known to multiple! The prophecy in question regards the birth of the Prince/Princess That Was Promised, the herald who will bring dragons back into the world, and the culmination of House Targaryen. When Rhaella became pregnant and was close to her due date, the King Aegon V had all the Targaryens gather in Summerhall where he intended to attempt to hatch seven dragon eggs (perhaps he also had some suspicion about the connection between the blood magic needed to hatch dragons and Rhaella's imminent potentially prophesized birth?)

… the blood of the dragon gathered in one … … seven eggs, to honor the seven gods, though the king’s own septon had warned … … pyromancers … … wildfire … … ames grew out of control … towering … burned so hot that … … died, but for the valor of the Lord Comman …

—AWOIAF, The Targaryen Kings: Aegon V

This is what remains of the story of Summerhall. Who wrote this note? Maester Corso, of course. Where did he send this letter? The Citadel. Woof. Innocuous on it's own but for the purpose of this post, in line with the idea that the Citadel was keeping a close eye on all things dragon.

The Maester Conspiracy would ask: who is to say what really went wrong at Summerhall? All we know is that Rhaella gave birth there amidst the chaos and then she didn't give birth to a child who lived past a year for 17 years to come. Miscarriages, stillbirths, child deaths... she had them all. Aerys's paranoia grew and grew until Rhaella was completely isolated. It was under these conditions of extreme scrutiny that Rhaella finally had Viserys, and Viserys lived, and then Daenerys was born while isolated on Dragonstone & raised far from maester's influence following.

Here's the point that sticks out though:

"Lannisport was the end of our voyage," Prince Oberyn went on, as Ser Arron Qorgyle helped him into a padded leather tunic and began lacing it up the back. "Were you aware that our mothers knew each other of old?" "They had been at court together as girls, I seem to recall. Companions to Princess Rhaella?"

"Just so. It was my belief that the mothers had cooked up this plot between them.

—ASOS, Tyrion X

The Unnamed Princess of Dorne and Joanna Lannister were both companions to Princess Rhaella. The exact timeline is unclear but it's definite that the Unnamed Princess was older than the other two. She'd given birth to Doran over a decade before Rhaegar was born, although Rhaella was a very young mother (13 or 14). However, they were close enough to cook up 'plots.' It seems realistic that the Unnamed Princess was present earlier in Rhaella's life while Joanna came about later. GRRM is not trustworthy with ages and timelines anyway, so that's a supposition.

All three of these women had the same experience: a firstborn who lived, followed by a long expanse of fertility issues, followed by another successful birth (or more).

"I was the oldest," the prince said, "and yet I am the last. After Mors and Olyvar died in their cradles, I gave up hope of brothers. I was nine when Elia came, a squire in service at Salt Shore. When the raven arrived with word that my mother had been brought to bed a month too soon, I was old enough to understand that meant the child would not live. Even when Lord Gargalen told me that I had a sister, I assured him that she must shortly die. Yet she lived, by the Mother's mercy. And a year later Oberyn arrived, squalling and kicking.

—AFFC, The Captain of the Guard

Doran was nine before his mother had another successful birth after two child deaths. Her manner of death is unknown. Tyrion is likewise nine years younger than Jaime & Cersei. Joanna Lannister's possible fertility issues in the in-between are unknown, but she died in childbirth. Viserys is 17 years younger than Rhaegar (similar to how Daenerys Lateborn is 17 years younger than Daeron II). Rhaella Targaryen died in childbirth. If all three of these women who canonically shared time, meals, chambers, etc together suffered from similar infertility issues and timelines, with Rhaella being the worst affected, can we theorize that there might have been issues of poison at play?

Pycelle was the Grand Maester at the time — we know he was involved in other plots with poison at the center (Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn most notably), and we also know that Tywin Lannister married for love. So despite his loyalty to Tywin, couldn't it be that Pycelle never expected Tywin to match with his cousin of few advantages, and that Joanna's struggles were perhaps an unintended, unforeseen consequence?

Could this be the additional backstory regarding Pycelle and Tywin that GRRM is referencing?

Counterpoint One: If the maesters were aware of the prophecy and Rhaegar fulfilled it, they shouldn't have continued with Rhaella

Counterpoint Two: The timeline for the various births of Rhaella, Joanna, and Unnamed Princess are all over the place. It's possible that GRRM didn't simply flub the timeline and actually there is no connection between these three women's similar fertility issues.

Counterpoint Three: Rhaella was traumatized from her young birth and Summerhall's tragedy, her fertility issues arose naturally.

All possibilities.

FOURTH: IS ALL OF THIS GOING TO BITE THE CITADEL IN THE ASS SOMEHOW? WHY ARE THEY EVEN DOING THIS? (SPECULATION)

My theory as to the roots of the Maester Conspiracy is threefold:

ONE: The Citadel, like all institutions of higher academia, is not politically neutral and is invested in specific visions for the future. They inherently seek to preserve the status quo which allows them to function and expand their own influence. They are as liable to corruption as any of the other institutions we see (monarchy, knighthood, the Faith, the Night's Watch, the Kingsguard, etc.) and while maesters do not act as one, they do act as an informal web pushing forth specific beliefs and ideals.

TWO: Not all maesters are created equal. Archmaesters and other such influential members of the Citadel are closer to certain truths than others, it's in the handchosen placement of maesters in the ears of specific lords/political players that we see a larger plan.

THREE: The Citadel is aware of prophecies foretelling a second Long Night to come. To combat this, they have long sought to destroy one of the heralds of said disaster, that being dragons. To put it simply: All magic is from the same root / all magic must be destroyed.

That's my theory.

Now, is this going to bite them in the ass? Hahaha of course!

ONE: The Faceless Men are infiltrating the Citadel due to some plan we are not yet privy to. The AFFC Prologue shows us the novice Pate being body snatched by an FM implied to the Jaqen H'ghar — what is he after, though? Potentially the extremely rare book titled The Death of Dragons that is solely kept in some locked basement of the Citadel... which he just acquired a key for?

TWO: Euron Greyjoy is coming to sack Oldtown, and he is obsessed with dragons/arcane arts/doing experiments with pregnant women (back to my point about connecting dragon births and human fertility)... but above all, he is not nice.

THREE: Daenerys Targaryen is coming to Westeros, and she's the Mother of Dragons. The Dragons are here. By focusing on dragons, it's possible the maesters have lost sight of the bigger picture — the incoming Long Night, wights, and Battle for the Dawn.

That was such a long post I fear and way beyond the question you asked. I appreciate it anyway, seeing as I've wanted to get all these thoughts out for a while to organize what I think & what the text itself points to.

To answer your question: Yes I do think the Maester Conspiracy is a real thing! I believe it's been set up mainly insofar as it will guide Samwell Tarly's POVs in Oldtown, the upcoming Euron Greyjoy plotlines, and potentially Arya due to the Faceless Men connect.

Eventually it will bring Daenerys Targaryen and Jon Snow into play (the latter likely due to the Arya and Sam of it all, which winks to the importance of Jon now having an Oldtown-bred squire in Satin), probably in line with the concept of the Second Dance George has been teasing us about.

Just how it will all play out, though, I couldn't say. We shall have to see. Drink water. Manifest TWOW. Speaking of manifesting...

[ecce-felix]

I like parts of the Maester conspiracy theory but what I don’t like abt it is it’s used to blame everything that’s ever gone wrong for the targs on someone else & absolve them of any responsibility for negative actions. I can believe they hate magic, because all the types of magic we’ve seen in asoiaf is destructive and/or requires sacrifice of an unwilling innocent, and they want order and peace for the realm (how is that a bad thing??). I can even believe they may have poisoned the remaining eggs during aegon III’s time to prevent another dance from ripping apart the realm. I don’t think they are anti woman troglodytes who do things just to cause mass suffering, that’s not in line with what we’ve seen of any maesters besides maybe pycelle (besides, making targ women suffer is the hobby of targ men). I don’t think they somehow killed aemma arryn/baelon to install Alicent hightower. I’m willing to be generous and see how that’s a plausible theory to someone being told the broad strokes & not all the facts bc hightower = oldtown = citadel and all that. But we know the maesters were the ones telling viserys to leave her alone for a few more years, we know that her trying for kids too young is what made her weaker, which then eventually killed her. If the goal is to see her dead, why the hell were they trying to preserve her health? Wouldn’t they have encouraged viserys to start impregnating aemma the moment her cycle began? The situation is very clearly written to show viserys’ desperation to not be like jaehaerys & to have a son and heir, which culminates in him losing his wife and their most recent baby all at once. I don’t think the maesters caused summerhall. Even though I unironically love egg & will be saddened if I’m proven right & he’s the one who did the deed (again, willing to be gracious & say the experiment got out of control, but it’s more likely to me that he was intentionally sacrificing family members to hatch the eggs), it makes no sense for maesters to have done it just bc pycelle & tywin were alive and shady at the time. I think egg doing it makes sense with what we’ve seen of targaryen self destructive obsession & how desperate egg was to have dragons bc of war/trouble with the lords. Also some other things mentioned in dunk & egg that I’m not arsed to fully flesh out in my ramblings lol. Idk my point is some things abt the theory are plausible and some things sound like qanon supporters talking about The Deep StateTM to avoid talking about the failings/losses of their favorite politicians.

[daenystheedreamer]

Ok this is a dumb question but do you understand the grand maester conspiracy? It’s popping up again and maybe I’m just an idiot but like all the things listed about killing dragon eggs and lying about shit, I just think like why would they be doing that tho? I know it’s like an intro to asoiaf theory and it’s also just regarded as not true. Idk am I just not getting it or is this why people say it’s bs

Grand Maester Conspiracy is one of those theories like Grand Northern Conspiracy where there's truth to it - the Northerners have their own agendas, and the Maesters have their own agendas (eg pycelle the tywin meatrider the lannister glazer the dj akademiks of asoiaf) - but it's not the blown out big dick illuminati conspiracy certain sections of the fandom act like it is.

The conspiracy literally sounds like something a coked-up Targaryen dickrider like Bloodraven would invent. "Maesters have spent 300 years possibly longer destroying the targ dynasty because they're r/atheist and hate magic" it honestly sounds like the asoiaf version of an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. it's illogical and totally impractical and sounds nothing like what GRRM would write.

to be mean. it's for targ stans. and especially ones who've only watched hotd and read den of geek articles where the authors drag up some forum theory without context and since they haven't even read asoiaf they don't even have the actual context of the actual main fucking story. cringe!

r+l=j created a generation of the most insufferable forum redditors all desperate to create the next wide-ranging conspiracy theory and since its been 13 damn years without that damn book they had to get bigger and more wide reaching until literally 300 years worth of tens of thousands of maesters all with the same anti targ agenda have to all be working together for this to a) work and b) be so secret its even secret to the reader. also all the evidence is BS i hate when they use the barbrey grey rats quote cos that's pure barbrey crazy that's her own thing.

[goodqueenaly]

I fell into a rabbit hole of your metas and it's great stuff! But while reading your bits over the Southern Bloc I couldnt help notice something. In Dance(ithink) Barbrey Dustin speaks to Theon about her distrusts for the maesters and insuates that Rickard's Southron ambitions were groomed by the maester of that time. I doubt that GRRM wrote that for no reason, and in the your work I don't see any mention of the Maesters 1/2

(tbh I really wouldn't be surprised if we don't get to see anything substantial on the Maester conspiracy because of time and pacing in two books thanks to GrRm great scheduling bbtp) but do you think the Maesters have any important part on the Southron Bloc plans? Because if so, what would have been their greater goal?

P.S. and another thing! Rickard Starks ambition level is unusual in most of the historical Starks throughout the Targaryen dynasty. Two sons and a daughter connected to land beyond the Neck? I know you mentioned why Rickard would benefit from these relationships, but why did he think of this in The first place? Why did he think it was better to go against the Targaryens when they hadn't bothered with the North much at that point?

P.S. pt2: I really think it was the Maesters that low-key were pushing, for something, and they really needed to cinch Rickard in. Except that Dragons and magic no longer seem to exist, so why continue to erode the Targaryens away(their anti Martell agenda checks out, at least) even if Aegon IV had done what he wanted to do it's not like the Maesters would suffer or benefit either? Sorry, I accidently put myself in the rabbit hole. It's dark here. Bye

The short answer is that I really don't believe in any maester conspiracy explanation for the (as yet theorized) southron ambitions power bloc. I think that there are (again, potential) explanations for why Rickard Stark (and, by extension, Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully) acted as they did which are not dependent on, or even really explained by, a united conspiracy of maesters puppeteering various paramount lords. I am not saying there has never been any greater schemes among maesters ever, only that I believe this specific group of marital and fostering alliances was the product of the aristocratic men involved rather than their maesters.

Number one, I think Barbrey Dustin's comments regarding maesters should be taken with a heavy grain of salt. I don't mean that Barbrey is stupid, far from it, but rather that Barbrey is a woman with very specific grievances and very specific sources of blame for those grievances. Because Barbrey believes that she loved Brandon and that Brandon loved her, she needs a way to explain the failure of her romantic desires that does not blame either herself or Rickard and Brandon Stark (since, after all, Barbrey's goal was to become a Stark herself). This is, after all, the same Barbrey who asserts that Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn, despite the fact that Brandon fought a duel with (and nearly killed) the person who challenged him for Catelyn's hand and explicitly affirmed his commitment to Catelyn, to Catelyn, before he left for King's Landing. Accordingly, villainizing Rickard's old maester (who was both a foreigner - that is, not a northerner - and a bastard, with all the accompanying prejudice there) and Catelyn Tully (another foreigner to the North) allows Barbrey to create a narrative in which she, Brandon, and Rickard did no wrong and naturally (to her) untrustworthy people can serve as scapegoats instead. Barbrey is a smart and canny woman, but she is as much subject to bias and prejudice as any other character, and given those very apparent biases I am reluctant to simply accept what Barbrey says about maesters as true.

Now, could there be a secondary reason the author included this perspective from Barbrey? Just as the story Godric Borrell tells of the fisherman's daughter and the story Edric Dayne tells of Wylla the wet nurse are both (almost certainly) objectively wrong accounts which nevertheless support the true proposition that there is a greater mystery to be revealed about Jon Snow's mother, so perhaps Barbrey Dustin's antipathy toward maesters is wrongly justified but intended to catch readers' attention to a more general point. Perhaps the author wants to suggest here that there is something a bit underhanded happening with some maesters, just not politically - that is, that individual historical maesters probably helped finish off the Targaryen dragons, and that few modern maesters recognize the potency (and danger) of magic (an attitude which will be immediately, and fatally, undone when Euron shows up to take over Oldtown).

I think it is also important to contextualize Rickard in his time and place. Certainly, it was the case that few (although some) Starks had married outside the North, at least so far as we have the Stark family tree - which, by the way, was as much true for a family like the Lannisters (whose marriages from Damon Lannister through the present day were almost exclusively with other Westerlands Houses), and probably as much true for families like the Tullys and Arryns as well - but it was also very unusual, indeed virtually unique, for all the senior commanders of Westeros to meet in a single space to war against a foreign invading army, which is exactly what happened during the War of the Ninepenny Kings - a war in which RIckard almost certainly served as Warden of the North. This was the perfect opportunity for Rickard to meet his fellow Warden Jon Arryn, as well as senior Riverlands commanders Hoster and Brynden Tully - and if they may not have finalized their entire geopolitical strategy and ambition in that moment (which would have been impossible to do anyway, given that Robert Baratheon, the Stark boys, and the Tully girls did not then exist), they certainly had the chance to discuss their opinions on the current state of the kingdom and build the foundations of their allegiance and mutual regard for one another.

And indeed, it's specifically not the case that the Targaryens "hadn't really bothered with the North much at that point" - quite the opposite, I think Targaryen action and inaction toward the North may have been a major source of grievance that motivated Rickard's participation in this alliance bloc. Remember that when the North needed help during the reign of Aerys I - when Dagon Greyjoy decided to make the west coast of Westeros his playground for pillaging and reaving - the Iron Throne specifically, consciously did nothing. That purposeful inaction directly betrayed part of the feudal promise enshrined when the Targaryen kingdom was formed: in return for the homage and and military service promised by the Iron Throne’s vassals, the Iron Throne agreed to protect those vassal families when they could not protect themselves - when, in fact, the realm itself was threatened. If the Iron Throne had probably (through Maekar) eventually intervened to solve the Dagon problem, Rickard’s great-grandfather Beron and his sons had learned the hard way that the Iron Throne’s commitment to its protective obligations was at best dependent on the personality of the monarch on the throne (and/or the monarch’s chief advisor). That’s not a lesson that I think Rickard - who was ruling barely half a century later - would necessarily have forgotten, or not considered in his political decisions and ambitions. If the Iron Throne ignored its individual vassals' plight without compunction, perhaps the way to make the dynasty listen - to ensure the Dagon problem could not happen again, in other words - was to unite as a bloc with other great Houses, the better to force the dynasty's notice.

Nor might the Starks have appreciated the opposite end of the Targaryens’ exercise of royal power - that is, under Aegon V, whose stated goal as king was to curtail lordly power by "grant[ing] rights and protections to the commons that they had never known before". It is unclear as yet how the Starks felt about Aegon V's program of reforms, yet it is certainly the case that unidentified other lords deeply resented the king's actions, even going so far as to describe him as "a bloodyhanded tyrant intent on depriving us of our gods-given rights and liberties". Indeed, this had not been the first time the Targaryens had intervened in the North to remove traditional privileges of the Starks and their vassals, since under Jaehaerys I the crown had both forced Winterfell to donate lands of its vassals to the Night's Watch and removed the right to the first night (across the continent, to be sure, but even Barth specifically noted at the time that "some lords [would] surely grumble at this [i.e. the end to the first night], especially in the North"); moreover, at least the first of those royal decisions seems to have caused deep resentment among some of the Starks. It's possible, therefore, that Rickard (who may have come into his lordship toward the end of Aegon's reign) agreed that the crown could not simply (metaphorically speaking) stomp into the North and start making demands on those rights which Aegon I had long ago promised to protect.

All of this, I think, may have culminated in an expression of frustration when the various Westerosi commanders met during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. If the Iron Throne had failed to uphold its end of the feudal bargain, in the eyes of these lords, it was now nevertheless demanding that its vassals still provide theirs - fighting for the crown at the summons of the king, to keep the king on the Iron Throne against the ambitions of a foreign challenger. For the first time, the Targaryen dynasty had left a major war entirely to the execution of its vassals, expecting that those families whose ancestors had bent the knee to the Targaryens would lead the charge against the Blackfyre forces (while the sickly king retired in the capital and his young heir served as a mere squire). Why, men like Rickard, Jon, Hoster, and Brynden might have wondered, were they giving their blood and sweat - and the blood and sweat of their vassals in turn - for a dynasty which had decided that the feudal bargain meant little or nothing when it came to the Targaryens' responsibilities? If once the answer had been dragons, that answer was no longer true over a century after the death of the last dragon; I think the Starks, Tullys, and Arryns may have realized that, with the balance of power irrevocably (or so they thought) shifted, now was the time to ally together, the better to rewrite the feudal playbook in a way which better recognized their power and authority.

Conversely, and to the point you made, I do not see any reason why the maesters (assuming all maesters would even act for a single purpose, which I think is simply wrong) would have any desire to encourage these specific marriage and fostering arrangements. Even if we start with the idea that "the Maesters ... were pushing, pushing, for something, and they really needed to cinch Rickard in", what exactly was the end goal here? As you yourself note, it could not have been the extinction of the dragons (which had not existed for almost 150 years by this point), and there seems to have been no animosity on a political level between the Citadel and the Targaryen dynasty, certainly not by this time (indeed, the Citadel's representative enjoyed a place at the right hand of the monarch, as Grand Maester).

[patrocles]

what are your thoughts on the Targaryen Maester conspiracy theory?

Oh I love it. I love love love a long-con conspiracy that seems like tin foil bullshit until you actually look into.

It shows how not everyone was just cool with a transition to the Targaryen dynasty, who by this point, are still pretty new. And their tenure thus far has been rocky at best. From their point of view, the Targaryens were holding the country hostage with nuclear weapons that could be deployed on anyone at any time and there was little anyone else could do to stop it. That had to be dealt with. Given that the Hightowers are the direct benefactors of the Citadel, it makes sense that they would work together and seize the most immediate opportunity to get their family in. At best, they need someone who’ll not only be loyal to their family, but the Citadel and their agendas. I don’t think they orchestrated the Dance, but I do think they absolutely would have worked to make sure something like that never happened again. 

And in terms of the aftermath of the civil war, I do think they had every reason to make sure that the dragons never reached their full potential again. The country could not withstand another Maegor or civil war and there was no guarantee that they would ever have another Jaehaerys and Alysanne ever again. And they weren’t wrong to take precautions- could you imagine if the Blackfyre rebellions had dragons?  

The Citadel and the Maesters are very much anti-magic; it can’t be controlled and specifically, it cannot be controlled by them. I do think if they’re conspiring against the Targaryens, it’s absolutely to push an agenda on their part to rid the world of magic and so that they’re the centralized authority of all knowledge.  And considering they're the inheritors of one of the biggest slave empires that's existed? It makes sense that they'd be extremely wary of that happening again.

The only part of the theory I don’t agree with is that they were killing Targaryen women via childbirth complications. I think that’s more of a reflection on how patriarchal standards kill women all in the name of procuring lineage in forcing them into pregnancy too young, which we see all across the board, not just with this family. (That being said, Mellos probably did wait too long to help Baelon, and so when he told Viserys that an emergency C-Section might not work, it wouldn’t look like he didn’t try and save the baby). 

What I also like about this theory is how easy it actually is to accomplish without anyone being the wiser. The maesters handle all the secretarial affairs, they handle the ravens, the lords and kings rely on them with the assumed benefit of the doubt that they’re 100% unbiased and 100% loyal to whichever lord or king they’re serving, which is hilariously ignorant on their part. So if Viserys is decaying of leprosy, and the Grand Maester is seeming like he’s trying to help (even if he’s purposefully not giving him the correct care), Viserys has no reason to assume the Grand Maester isn’t doing everything in his power to do so. I don’t think he’s actively killing him, but keeping him weak just long enough to change his mind about making Aegon his heir, and just alive enough to keep getting Alicent pregnant to the odds are stacked against Rhaenyra 4:1 

And considering the Targs didn’t make the knowledge of the White Walker threat known to anyone else outside of King and Heir, the maesters would have no reason not to want to rid the world of dragons; without the dragons, destabilization would inevitably happen by their own hand (which did end up happening only 150 years after the Dance anyways). So I absolutely believe plans have restarted again to ensure the dragons don’t make it to Westeros, if the Citadel can help it (hence “Pate” looking for a book on the Death of Dragons.. the first Faceless Man being slaves from Valyria…. It’s all coming together. ) 

I think it’s less likely that there’s a Grand Maester conspiracy involving Northern politics, or all the maesters are involved in some giant inter-connecting plot, or anything else. But it seems almost ridiculous that there wouldn't be one involving the Targaryens. It honestly feels like there's an assumed and agreed-upon agenda that the maesters will work towards when need be.

[navree]

I think the reason why some people are hellbent on calling F&B "green propaganda" is because it's primarily written and edited by maesters, and people believe that there's some sort of anti-Targaryen/anti-magic agenda that they share with House Hightower (who created the Citadel and sponsors them), hence they would have reason to be biased towards the Hightowers and by extension, the greens. Which is.... Eh, I don't want to say that there's nothing going on with the maesters, but sometimes the level of conspiracy people are ascribing to them, the Faith of the Seven, and the Hightowers is too much for me. Aegon II, Aemond, and Criston are not painted very admirably, and honestly, neither is Alicent (though that could just be a case of Westerosi misogyny by the men recording her). And sometimes the things House Hightower does just doesn't fit into that supposed agenda from the maesters, so how cooperative are those two parties, really?

Yeah, I know why people say F&B is "green propaganda" (guys it is not that deep GRRM had a lot of lore in his head and he wrote it down into a book as a consolidation and also to give us smth while he plus away at TWOW for another two decades that's literally it it's not integral to the main story at all), but just because some people believe it doesn't make it true. I've explained the intricacies of why F&B is both a source to look at critically and why that doesn't make it propaganda, but the long and short of it is, it's just not.

There's Something weird going on with the Maesters in the main story, there's whack shit happening and I do buy into their anti magic bias, and clearly there's a reason why there's assassins in Oldtown at the Citadel, but a) it's not a huge widespread thing because, well, conspiracies can't be like that, they're secretive and small by definition otherwise people find the conspiracy out and b) I don't think the Hightowers are involved. The Hightowers are deeply connected with old magic, that's why there's that theory running around that they're descended from remnants of the Great Empire of the Dawn (I don't think they are, my full explanation is somewhere under my "answered" tag), and there's a reason why the current Lord Hightower has holed himself up in the Hightower as Euron, Mr. Magic himself, is approaching to invade. The Hightowers and the Citadel are more likely to be at odds over magic than not (not to mention that the Citadel, despite being located in Oldtown, is explicitly shown to operate independently of any lords, it's why they kick up a stink about Pycelle being put in the dungeons by Tyrion, maesters are only meant to be beholden to the Citadel, not other lords and nobles).

And yeah, no one's painted particularly admirably in F&B, especially in the Dance, because like I mentioned, the main political slant that can color F&B as an in universe academic and historical text is Robert's hatred of Targaryens, not any particular side for or against specific branches of Targs. When Blood & Fire comes out, we're as likely to see derision lobbed at both Targaryens and Blackfyres when we get to that portion, because the main thing is just that Robert dislikes all "dragonspawn" no matter who they are. They all come across as kinda shit people (but intricate and layered and I still like them sue me) because that's who they were as people, Greens and Blacks alike.

[horizon-verizon]

I've always thought that the Shepherd was a High Sparrow-like figure who just popped up in KL, but part of me also thinks he could have just as easily been the maesters' catspaw and connected to the grand maester conspiracy. An ally of convenience, useful, but easily discarded. Archmaester Marwyn confirms the Citadel anti-magic, anti-dragons, and anti-Targaryen agenda.

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around ? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords ? The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. (AFFC, Samwell V)

....Maybe? Possible. Something doesn't feel all that right here.

[averageestrogenenjoyer]

this just a pet crack theory of mine lol. i like to think that the maesters' anti-magic conspiracy that marwyn alludes to started during the Dance itself (or shortly before)

Like, after all the destruction, death etc that was wraught in Aegon's Conquest and Maegor's tyranny, the conclave saw the targaryen civil war coming and immediately sent a guy to KL to pre-emptively kill off a few dragons lol.

It's like HW=HS except even more obscure!!! (and hopefully a bit less silly lol. like hs=hw is the absolute definition of silly)

[warsofasoiaf]

"The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don't doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first." --what is the Archmaesters' representative to Daenerys actually trying to accomplish? Turn Dany away from conquering Westeros, turn her away from prophecy and magic, or just kill her dragons? what do you think?

That's a very good question. We know the maesters are pretty strong in their anti-magic mentality, but would that mean attempting to kill Daenerys to prevent her from doing any magical prophecies, kill the dragons, or just advise her into ruin? We don't really get a sense of the actual Conclave itself, they're an actual mysterious cabal, or what their nefarious goals are. I don't personally believe in the Grand Maester Conspiracy - it's tries to prove a bit too much in my opinion, but they definitely do have an agenda of some sort.

Thanks for the question, Anon.

SomethingLikeALawyer, Hand of the King

[tomakeitbeautifultolive]

Djawadi: That’s open to interpretation, right? Clearly the relationship dilemma with Jon and Daenerys you could relate to Duncan and Jenny. Now that [Jon] knows who he is, and Dany knows who he is, you can draw a comparison to the conflict or the decision to come. ○.○ ○.○ ○.○ OH FUCKING GOD!!!!!!

Anon, I can’t tell whether you are excited or terrified, lol.

I’m going to drone on about this topic some more to try to clarify further, in case this is terror rather than excitement, lol. (Plus frankly, I just love me some Jenny and Duncan).

There are two important takeaways regarding Jenny and Duncan:

“Even when the High Septon, Grand Maester, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favor of his brother Jaehaerys, and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone.”

And that:

“The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses.”

So, this dark-haried Targaryen heir to the throne chooses love over duty. That already sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

I believe that when Maester Aemon said this to Jon:

“What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

It was foreshadowing.

We already see Jon give up a crown for love! Imagine once he experiences the feel of a newborn in his arms… Our boy Jon was fashioned for love, just like his (real) daddy.

Like Duncan, Jon already stepped down. And Jon and Dany’s actually savvy (full shade) advisors are already discussing why Jon and Daenerys would be a good political match.

Quick aside to say: Fuck off, Varys with your “Nothing lasts” comment. Ever heard of Alysanne and Jaehaerys? Sometimes shit does last.

For some context on why I don’t particularly like or trust Varys:

“Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer.”

I don’t trust him or his intentions. (Also, I forget which of my brilliant pals pointed this out, but, who informed Qyburn about the Wall falling, anyway?)

So, while Duncan offending House Baratheon by breaking his betrothal for love led to a short and bloody rebellion… Jon isn’t betrothed to anyone, nor is Dany. They’re both free and clear to marry if they so choose. Who would rebel, really? The northerners? After Dany saves their asses? I think Jon’s comment that they’ll come to see her for what she is - is true. We’re almost certainly going to see the payoff for that line next episode.

The reason Jenny’s song is a somber song: The Tragedy at Summerhall.

This event was most likely the result of some sort of conspiracy against Aegon and his plan to hatch dragons. According to Barristan Selmy:

“All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their father’s wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire, and grief.”

So, it’s sort of implied that someone was taking revenge on House Targaryen for slighting them. Another popular (more interesting) theory is that the maesters had some sort of anti-dragon/anti-magic conspiracy. (Unfortunately that I do not know as much about as I’d like, but that doesn’t matter much for my point.)

Anyway. Those are the tragedies associated with Jenny and Duncan:

A rebellion born of a spurned would-be queen (I don’t see a parallel in current show canon), and a tragedy born of either conspiracy or treason involving wildfire. The best potential for something similar in the show is Cersei going full mad queen and threatening to burn down King’s Landing, but someone putting an end to her the same way they did, Aerys, before it comes to fruition.

But as I’ve previously stated, I think the use of Jenny’s Song has more to do with the fact that it was almost certainly written by Rhaegar and sung to Lyanna.

It is my hope that this is foreshadowing that we learn why it’s important that Jon must be Rhaegar’s son at all - since he believed Jon to be the prince that was promised. Does the casual fan even know, truly, what that means, in any context outside of Melisandre? I doubt it. I’d personally love more clarification, myself.

“That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

Virtually the entire history of love in Westeros has been tragic.

It’s time for a change. For spring.

Break that wheel and go paint the door red!

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

Hi Butterfly! So, I don't know if this has been asked before but, The Sheperd, from the Dance of the Dragons... Part of the anti magic conspirancy, right? I mean, Marwyn clearly states the citadel killed the dragons. And something the way he is presented in F&B makes me think he was less crazed than we're lead to believe,

…no? I mean, the Shepherd was a religious nut, and not anti-magic but rather specifically anti-Valyrian, anti-Targaryen, anti-incest, and anti-dragon. (And sorry, he comes off as extremely insane to me.) Also the Shepherd didn’t kill all the dragons – yes, he started a mob that killed five dragons in the Storming of the Dragonpit, but far more (12 dragons) died in the various battles of the Dance, and I don’t think you would claim the Targaryens were part of the anti-magic conspiracy.

No, for the maesters and their conspiracy, we need to look at what happened after the Dance of the Dragons. Alas, Fire & Blood (volume 1) ends in 136 AC, years before the death of the last dragon in 153 AC, and even before the birth of that stunted green female or the mastiff-sized misshapen ones that were among the last dragons born. But there is a small bit of info that doesn’t bode well for the dragons in F&B volume 2…

The first omen of the dark times to come was seen on Driftmark, when the dragon’s egg presented to Laena Velaryon upon her birth quickened and hatched. Her parents’ pride and pleasure quickly turned to ash, however; the dragon that wriggled from the egg was a monstrosity, a wingless wyrm, maggot-white and blind. Within moments of hatching, the creature turned upon the babe in her cradle and tore a bloody chunk from her arm. As Laena shrieked, Lord Oakenfist ripped the “dragon” off her, flung it to the floor, and hacked it into pieces. –Fire & Blood

This horrible mutated wyrm (in 135 AC) is the only dragonbirth recorded in F&B after Lady Rhaena’s Morning was born in 130 AC in the Vale. And why did this dragon hatch as a wingless monstrosity? Why were the last dragons misshapen and small and infertile? The Shepherd and his ilk might have said it was the will of the gods, a curse on the incestuous and kinslaying Targaryens… but no, the answer is simple.

The chain around his throat felt very heavy. He touched one of the crystals lightly with the tip of his little finger. Such a small thing to hold the power of life and death. […] All the world knew that a maester forged his silver link when he learned the art of healing—but the world preferred to forget that men who knew how to heal also knew how to kill. –ACOK, Prologue

“Poison?” King Jaehaerys said in shock.“We know more of such things in the Free Cities,” Draz assured him. “It is the tears, never doubt it. The old maester would have seen it soon enough, so he had to die first. That is how I would do it. Not that I would. Poison is…dishonorable.”–Fire & Blood

“B-b-but,” Sam sputtered, “the other archmaesters… the Seneschal… what should I tell them?”“Tell them how wise and good they are. Tell them that Aemon commanded you to put yourself into their hands. Tell them that you have always dreamed that one day you might be allowed to wear the chain and serve the greater good, that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue. But say nothing of prophecies or dragons, unless you fancy poison in your porridge.”–AFFC, Samwell V

Poison. The answer is poison. Rubbed on the dragon eggs or possibly injected into them with hollow needles, fed to hatchlings… you don’t need to go to elaborate conspiracies and unlikely powers to explain how the Citadel killed the dragons, or consider these notable skeptics hiring a religious nut to foment an anti-dragon mob. It was poison, I’d bet my books on it.

[winelover1989]

What do you think about the theory that r'hllor and the great other are using people on earth as puppets to fight each other in the end bringing balance to the world? And what do you think about the Maesters having a hand in it?

Wow that's a theory? It's literally the foundation of this ancient India based fantasy series I'm fleshing out right now. I love it! I'm mine, the two opposing mystical forces just view all of evolution as a sort of simulation & they introduce magic to push further than the previous cycles. I love that kind of stuff, so I say cool theory.As for Maesters, I really love a lot of the Citadel conspiracy theories introduced by AFFC... Like Maesters being responsible for the extinction of dragons before Dany brought them back, them being responsible for laying the groundwork for Robert's Rebellion... But I don't know about their involvement in magic, it's a very anti magic group.

[ao3feed-tywin]

Beneath Her Dainty Sandaled Feet

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/31qI1ay

by Not_So_Dark_One

Aerys Targaryen was the worst president in the history of the USA. Everybody agrees. A tyrant who lied, caused wars and killed anyone who opposed him in 'accidents', which usually involved fire. Some of which he video-taped for his amusement. His was a reign of terror, backed by his family's massive underground criminal empire and their family conglomerate. That is why few condemned Robert Baratheon, his Vice-President, when he murdered the then president Targaryen, along with his wife and sons, and removed his family from power. Daenerys Targaryen, then aged 7, was the only child of the former president to be spared. 20 years later, due to his massive popularity and the help of his insanely wealthy father-in-law - Tywin Lannister, president Baratheon, still in power, has successfully removed the term limits and made it so that to have new presidential elections, the people would have to vote for that. Now though, he is faced with the first serious threat to his rule - Daenerys Targaryen, in charge of her family's vast resources and married to the disowned daughter of his secretary of defense, has come back for revenge. The ruthless young silver-haired beauty will stop at nothing to get what she wants. Fire and blood.

Words: 2840, Chapters: 1/?, Language: English

Fandoms: Game of Thrones (TV), A Song of Ice and Fire - George R. R. Martin, A Song of Ice and Fire & Related Fandoms

Rating: Not Rated

Warnings: Graphic Depictions Of Violence, Major Character Death, Rape/Non-Con, Underage

Categories: F/F, F/M, Multi

Characters: Daenerys Targaryen, Sansa Stark, Robert Baratheon, Jon Snow, Ned Stark, Cersei Lannister, Tywin Lannister, Jaime Lannister, Robb Stark, Jeyne Westerling, Maester Aemon, Aemon Targaryen, Kraznys mo Nakloz, Ramsay Bolton, Ramsay Bolton's Dogs, Theon Greyjoy, Grazdan zo Galare, Gregor Clegane, Sandor Clegane

Relationships: Sansa Stark/Daenerys Targaryen, Robert Baratheon/Cersei Lannister, Catelyn Stark/Ned Stark, Robert Baratheon & Ned Stark, Ned Stark & Sansa Stark, Robb Stark/Jeyne Westerling, Cersei Lannister/Jaime Lannister, Minor or Background Relationship(s)

Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Modern Setting, Alternate Universe - Politics, Revenge, Elections, Mad Queen Daenerys Targaryen, Jon and Sansa are Cousins, Dark Sansa, Dark Daenerys Targaryen, Lesbian Character, Lesbian Sex, POV Lesbian Character, Lesbian Sansa Stark, POV Daenerys, POV Sansa Stark, POV Ned Stark, POV Multiple, Treason, Crimes & Criminals, War, War Crimes, United States, Civil War, United Nations, Afghanistan, Jon Snow is a Stark, Jon Snow Knows Something, Jon Snow is Not a Targaryen, CIA, American Presidents, American Politics, Romantic Fluff, Fluff and Smut, Dark Character, Evil Plans, Evil Wins, Government Conspiracy, Conspiracy, Gun Violence, Violent Thoughts, Misogyny, Bigotry & Prejudice, Infidelity, Brother/Sister Incest, Work In Progress, Alternate Universe - Modern with Magic, Torture, Psychological Warfare, Psychological Torture, Brutal Murder, Brutality, Female Protagonist, Female Anti-Hero, Anti-Hero, Execution, Technology, Sadism, the bad guys win, Cults, Sexism, Derogatory Language, Explicit Language

read it on the AO3 at https://ift.tt/31qI1ay

[hyperbolicpurple]

Worldbuilding Exchange Letter

Fandoms: Old Kingdom - Garth Nix, MCU, ASOIAF

So . . . I know it looks like I’m really favoring ASOIAF here, but I swear, it’s just because Martin’s world is so BIG but relatively little explored, and as a result there’s a huge number of things I want to know/see. But the scale of my desire for all these things is the same, if that makes sense. It’s just that for the Old Kingdom books and the MCU, I have one very specific desire.

Old Kingdom: Garth Nix Media: Art, Fic, Meta Characters: Lirael, No Characters Worldbuilding Elements: The Clayrs Library Details: I just reread the Abhorsen trilogy recently and found myself fascinated all over again by the Library and what it contains. I would love any art or stories about Lirael in particular, such as the adventures she had in the Library/discoveries that we didn’t get to see (feel free to include the Disreputable Dog as well). Or fic/art about anything that’s in the Library or the Library itself. For in-universe meta, any of the texts in the Library would be great (about pretty much any subject you can imagine - the Clayr themselves, the nature of Charter/Free Magic, the history of the Old Kingdom, etc), or perhaps some of the Librarians’ documents--documenting the history of the Library or its new additions, guidelines for conduct and procedure (did they add them in response to specific events, frex?), etc.

Marvel Cinematic Universe Media: Fic, Meta Characters: Jane Foster, Loki, Wanda Maximoff Worldbuilding Elements: relationship between magic and science Details: This element of the MCU has always fascinated me. I think these three characters are ideal to explore it; feel free to concentrate on any of them separately, but I would also love to see them in any combination if that’s something you’re into. For stories, you might throw a trope at them like a time loop, or explore any relevant background about the characters. For in-universe meta, documents like research (Jane), historical/theoretical Asgardian works (Loki), research notes about the scepter and its effects on people (Wanda), or relevant SHIELD docs on these characters would be excellent.

ASOIAF

Here’s a link to a really big zoomable map of the known world.

Request 1:

Media: Fic Characters: Beric Dondarrian, Edric “Ned” Dayne, Jon Snow Worldbuilding Elements: effects of resurrection Details: Coming back from the dead changes people, man.

Beric & Jon could obviously provide their own perspective on their resurrections. For Beric, I’d love for you to flesh out what he’s told us about his experiences of progressively forgetting more and more about his previous life. What’s that like? Maybe a before/after character portrait? For Jon, I’d guess that he might experience the same forgetting effect as Beric (what would he forget? Winterfell? Arya? OUCH) but he might also deal with being stuck in Ghost for too long and becoming too much a wolf. Go where your heart desires. There’s never too much angst.

Ned would be something of an outsider perspective on either or both of these characters. Obviously he’s close to Beric--what does he see change? As his sister’s betrothed, Beric was like a brother--once--does that change when Beric changes? Potentially he could meet Jon post-resurrection, too. Perhaps there are some parallels/contrasts to be made between the two characters from an outside POV.

Request 2:

Media: Art, Fic Characters: Alayaya, Chataya Worldbuilding Elements: the Summer Isles Details: As first-gen and second-gen immigrants respectively, Chataya and Alayaya probably have somewhat different views of Summer Islander and Westerosi culture. I’d love to see that explored. Obviously sex work is a major difference (does Chataya struggle to convey the Summer Islander mentality about sex? Does Alayaya struggle to accept it, or struggle with differing Westerosi values about sex?), and I’d be happy to read about that, but you could pick anything else too: food, holidays, games & sports, etc, to compare or explore. Has Alayaya ever been to the Summer Islands? How does it diverge from her expectations/her mother’s stories? What were Chataya’s early years among the Westerosi like? What struggles did she encounter in building her business?

Request 3:

Media: Fic, Meta Characters: Marwyn the Mage, Septon Barth, Samwell Tarly, No Characters, Original Characters Worldbuilding Elements: Asshai & the Shadow Lands, Gods & Religion, Eldritch apocalypse theory, Maesters & the Citadel, Myths Legends & Songs, the decline of magic, the origins of the dragons Details: I’d love to read about any of these worldbuilding elements in the form of travel narrative/exploration fic, or the documents written about them.

Asshai & the Shadow Lands - I’m honestly so weirded out by what we know of Asshai. Creep me out. Shadowbinders heading up the river to Stygai? Demons? Is there any semblance of a social life in Asshai? Or tell me about the city’s history.

Gods & Religion: Am curious about Septon Barth in particular, and the view he brought to his research. Or perhaps something dealing with the Throne/Crown schism and Barth’s role in repairing it. Or pretty much any take on how religion has influenced anything.

Eldritch apocalypse theory: A basic introduction is here, and here is @poorquentyn‘s #eldtritch apocalypse tag. Pretty much whatever you want, run with it.

Maesters & the Citadel: history of, sociology of, anti-magic conspiracies, good old boarding school shenanigans, the minutiae of teaching/studying/taking exams, I’m up for it

Myths, Legends & Songs: Pick one and deconstruct it in Martin’s way or your own, or write a song or story (perhaps within a story), or tell us via legend how the whole thing comes out. How will future generations see the events of ASOIAF?

Decline of magic: I’m a believer in the maesters’ anti-magic conspiracy, and I’d love to read more about it--rationalizatons? internal documents? procedures? Or more generally--what effect did the decline of magic have on other cultures and economies in the world? Pick anywhere.

Origins of the dragons: I’m a fan of this theory about dragons (that’s more “origins of the dragonriding ability in Valyrians” but maybe of interest?), and of Septon Barth’s “bloodmages and wyvern stock” argument. Feel free to combine them if you want, or do something more mythical. Asshai might be of interest, per Bran’s vision of Asshai as a place where “dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.”

Request 4:

Media: Art, Fic, Meta Characters: Orphans of the Greenblood, Edric “Ned” Dayne Worldbuilding Elements: Dornish culture, Food & cooking, Games & Sports, Holidays of Westeros Details: More Dorne!

Orphans of the Greenblood: I’m really interested in the Rhoynish culture brought to Westeros and how it’s evolved/syncretized over time. Religious/magical beliefs would be cool. Daily life stuff/curtain fic would be awesome--building or decorating a houseboat, for example, or cooking and eating, all the other elements I requested. If you’re interested in it, Ysilla and Yandry’s return to the Mother Rhoyne would make a great story. Is it different from their expectations?

Ned Dayne: All the same stuff, but with the Andal-influenced Daynes instead. The salty/stony/sandy Dornishmen groupings are something I also find interesting--conflict, assumptions, stereotypes, etc--so feel free to play around with that, and Ned’s role as a lord governing people from multiple roups.

Request 5:

Media: Art, Fic Characters: Original Characters, No Characters Worldbuilding Elements: Food & cooking, Lives of the dosh khaleen, Life in the Neck, the origins of the dragons, Post-Doom Valyria, Yi Ti Details: In addition to original characters and no characters at all, there are several requests below where I add that you might

Food and cooking: For fic, I’m hankering for various “five things” type comparison stories. Five meals a certain character ate (in different regions/at different times of life). Five meals that happened in the same place across a large span of history in a particular region (the far north, Dorne, the Neck, etc). Etc. For art, I’m just a fan of food porn in general--feel free to illustrate a meal from the books, or characters--wildlings and various mountain clans are of interest to me, cooking while traveling is super cool, hunting, any character I’ve requested would be welcome.

Lives of the dosh khaleen: I’m fascinated by this aspect of Dothraki culture. What are the social relationships like here? Intra-dosh khaleen relationships? What roles do they have in governance, ritual, etc? Dress, ornamentation? Feel free to use straight, adapt, or just ignore the material from GOT season 6.

Life in the Neck: We know so little about it, so flesh out pretty much anything. Any of the Reeds we know would be great, but also feel free to jump around in history. Life before/after the hammer of the waters came down, for example. Curtain fanwork/domestic (or non-domestic) daily life stuff is the best. And their particular form of guerilla warfare against the Boltons (down with the Boltons!).

Origins of the dragons: I’m a fan of this theory about dragons (that’s more “origins of the dragonriding ability in Valyrians” but maybe of interest?), and of Septon Barth’s “bloodmages and wyvern stock” argument. Feel free to combine them if you want, or do something more mythical. Asshai might be of interest, per Bran’s vision of Asshai as a place where “dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.”

Post-Doom Valyria: What a place. Again, not much is known, so use your imagination. Feel free to go more fantastical--maybe it really is all just roaming demons now--or maybe more people oriented. Have people found a way to co-exist (or just eke out a difficult existence) with the demons? Or maybe the demons are just a smokescreen for people who want, for whatever reason, to be left alone? Per the eldritch apocalypse theory linked above, Euron’s trip to Valyria might be a very fruitful source of inspiration.

Yi Ti:

[navree]

I think the dragons died because after the doom of old Valeryia magic has become very weak in the world and the dragons are magical in nature so obviously they will be affected by it. I actually find this more compelling than some "eevil maesters conspiracy"

I've talked a bit about what I think happened with the dying of the dragons here and here, but long story short there's a definite piece of the puzzle missing. I think that the weakening of magic in the world following the Doom definitely played a part, it's all but explicitly stated in text that the death of Valyria (and later dragons) is what led to the death of magic itself, and that's why we're seeing stronger magic now that Dany has been able to birth her children. But, to me at least, there has to be something more than just "the weakening of magic in the world eventually killed them off" because the timeline of the dying of the dragons is........weird. It's commonly accepted that it happened because the Dance killed off all of House Targaryen's healthy dragons and it did kill off a significant amount of them, but not all. Silverwing and Sheepstealer and the Cannibal were all healthy and alive, and Morning was at least healthy and growing swiftly enough to be ridden by Rhaena. That's four healthy dragons, and yet one of them vanishes, two of them are just never heard from again after the war, and one of them, despite being part of a species that can live to be up to two hundred years old, is somehow dead at age 24. Not to mention, there's no indication that the healthy dragons pre-Dance (which only lasted two years) were going to be falling under any kind of issue too, they all seemed on track to live long lives and produce healthy offspring.

So, what happened? Why did the dragons go from "yeah we're good" to actively dying off? Why was Silverwing at the very least never able to be claimed again? Why did the lifespan of the dragons shorten so dramatically? Why were none of the eggs laid by the four very healthy dragons, or even the eggs that had been laid prior to the Dance that just hadn't hatched yet, no longer healthy, or not even hatching at all? That's more than just a natural progression, that speaks to something very specific happening, something we don't know about and that doesn't even seem to have been fully noted until it was too late, not just because of Aegon's hatred and fear of dragons but also just being under the radar (and again, Aegon did eventually realize the problem because he did spend the last years of his reign looking for ways to bring dragons back). Do I think it was the maesters? Not entirely sure, I think the maesters have an anti-magic bias and an anti-magic agenda that they're working towards, but I don't know if they have the power or scope to literally kill off dragons, but they might have played a part. If I had to guess, I would say that the maesters might have been a small part, along with the general decline in magic also playing a part, and then this one unknown mystery catalyst accelerating everything and turning it from things being normal into this fucking extinction event.