#they work so well together and I hope they're each other's endgame

[doortotomorrow]

cobra kai couples · robby keene and tory nichols

[dairy-farmer]

The recent Dicktim ask about Dick cheating on Tim with Babs!!! It hurts so bad 😭😭😭.

I want Tim to get together with either Jason or Damian after. I don't know which would hurt more, Tim getting together with the man he once thought as his little brother or the one he slightly thinks of as his own child.

I want everyone around them having a difficult time moving on from the relationship. They really thought Dicktim would be endgame. Everyone thinks the moment will pass and they'll go back to being disgustingly in love with each other. Everyone except Jason or Damian.

Tim doesn't tell anyone about what happened because he doesn't want it to get away from their mission but Jay or Dami is just so mad for Tim. Babs eventually breaks down and admits why Dick and Tim broke up and Tim is frustratingly right in that it had affected their mission. They don't trust Dick or Babs. And it's causing conflict in their planning for missions.

So Tim decides that maybe the only way for everyone to move on is to show that he has moved on. He decides to put himself on the market again. But nothing sticks and it just makes things worse because now they think, Tim is so heartbroken he has taken to sleeping around and is afraid of opening himself up again.

Jay or Dami, misguidedly tries to help Tim by telling him that sleeping around won't heal his wounds and he shouldn't rush it. Tim is pissed because he is NOT sleeping around but since everyone thinks so, he should just sleep with Jay or Dami, then.

It starts a very messy affair where Tim kinda proves everyone right to Jay or Dami that he's been hurt really badly because of how low his self-esteem is now. Tim also can't trust Jason or Damian because those two tried to kill him and Dick is their brother first. They have sex a lot. And slowly but surely, Tim moves on. They prove to Tim he's worth everything. They fall in love.

At first, they keep it from the rest. They are proven right by their decision because their relationship garnered skepticism. But slowly Nightwing and Oracle's relationship with the Bats improves. They don't get together. Tim is kinda confused why. A part of him is rightfully angry. They ruined his esteem and broke his trust and they can't even be end game? His relationship ended for a fuck? But he stops caring.

And one day, Tim and Jay or Damian go to Bruce bearing two good news. They're getting married and Tim is pregnant with their child. The wedding was beautiful. Everyone was happy.

Everyone but Dick.

He watches as someone else gets his happy ending. He watches as Tim moves on from being his lover to just being his friend. He wasn't even a part of the wedding party. He was just an ordinary guest in the wedding. Everyone but Tim knows he's still in love with Tim and they don't want to give him a chance to ruin it even if he wouldn't.

-🦆

🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺🥺 tim gets his happy ending!!!! he's with someone who loves him and is moving on to start his own little family!!!

and dick...well dick knows he probably deserves it. knows he's learning a tough lesson in the worst sort of way. forced to watch as the love of his life, the person he was going to marry, the person who was going to be the mother to his child...he watches as they move on and start a family with someone else and dick...part of dick was almost delusionally optimistic in thinking maybe he and tim would get back together. it had happened before. with kori, with barbara even. with plenty of people. dick and someone break things off but then inevitably they find their way back to each other.

and dick hoped...maybe in time tim would take him back. dick would do better, he'd be better, he'd work as long and as hard as it took for tim to trust him again. dick just needed to show tim that he was serious. so he didn't pursue anything with barbara. he called it quits completely with her. he and her had always been too close for comfort and it should've meant something that he'd lost more than one girlfriend because they didn't like how comfortable barbara was overstepping boundaries when he was in a relationship. they didn't like that she wore his clothes that she kept from when they dated, they didn't like she had a key to his apartment, didn't like that she sometimes spent nights over and he didn't tell them. they didn't like how he and her often had inside jokes that they laughed about in front of them, they didn't like how she grabbed his arm and his shoulder, how she leaned in too close when he'd whisper to her. dick had told himself that it was just petty jealousy and insecurity. that barbara was just a friend, that boys and girls could be JUST friends, and their hyper-focusing on the fact that they used to date just made her seem like she was competition when she wasn't.

it's donna who smacks him over the head and asks if he's fucking serious. because they're friends. he's a boy and she's a girl and she sure as shit never did crap like that. not with him, not with roy, not with wally. none of their girlfriends ever felt threatened by the fact that she was a girl who was their friend. that she crashed at their places and that she borrowed their clothes. they never once thought there was something more going on and it was because theirs was a relationship that was actually platonic. if she'd tried some of the shit barbara did (whether consciously or unconsciously on her part) he would've tugged her aside and told her she was being weird because it was. it was fucking weird for dick and barbara to act like they were still dating when dick was committed to someone else.

and what exactly was his excuse for not listening to his partner's concerns and discomforts? because that was a shitty thing too. did dick think he was innocent in that regard in enabling inappropriate behavior while in a relationship?

they had history? yeah so did donna.

they'd been through a lot together? so had donna.

she was one of dick's closest confidantes? so was donna.

dick clearly had some hangups. either about barbara or about commitments because donna knew she'd heard wedding bells. after so long of seeing dick have the worst luck with dating and relationships, she'd truly thought he was going to settle down with tim. and tim poor tim her heart broke for him. to be betrayed and fucked over by two of his most trusted people like that.

she's disappointed in dick. she really is. but mostly she's sorry that tim is the collateral damage in dick learning that there is a problem with how he conducts himself.

talking to donna gave dick a lot to think about. more than he thought. and he thinks back to the moment leading up to...everything.

how barbara let herself in with her key like always how they got to talking and laughing and how it all just progressed so naturally. and dick thinks about how if that had been someone else. roy. donna. wally. it wouldn't have happened.

dick had just been so on edge and anxious when barbara arrived. the jewelry store he'd been calling about trying to get an appointment for a consultation for months suddenly had an opening in two days and...and it seemed so fast. so quick. dick had thought he'd be waiting months to see a jeweler about making the engagement ring his father had drawn on a little sheet of notebook paper to propose to his mother with.

now it was happening in 48 hours and...dick...fucked up. in the span of an hour he fucked up years of his relationships with tim. he fucked up his future with tim, he fucked up everything they could've had.

he watches as tim disappears from his side and his life.

then when donna knocks some sense into him dick realizes what he did. what he allowed to happen, what he'd been letting happen for years.

barbara is miserable when he comes to see her. cass texted him about how she hadn't been responding to her calls and asked him to go see her. its then that dick realizes that tim has told no one of what caused their break up.

dick doesn't use the key he has to let himself in. for the first time in years he knocks and waits for barbara to answer with one of her systems.

their talk is a tough one. barbara has been beating herself up for days. she's too ashamed to speak with cass who looks up to her so much.

dick knows he can't blame her. not anymore than he can blame himself but...they need to talk. the lines in their relationship have been blurred for awhile and he'd made himself blind to it because she was babs and maybe because he wasn't all that opposed to it. they can be friends. close friends. but that's all they can be. they've been dusting away the line in the sand for too long. they're not kids or teenagers. they're grown fucking adults and they need to own up and come to terms with the fact that they messed up and it was their fault.

dick should have never given barbara a key that she could use wherever she wanted. he should've specified it was for emergencies. he never should've left stuff at her place or her at his because it just...it just seemed like they were leaving a door open.

they hadn't been firm about only being friends and now it lead to this and now...honestly unless they were certain that they could only be associates and friends...maybe they shouldn't be around each other for awhile.

barbara agrees. the regret and guilt had been eating her alive and its only a few weeks later when the family keeps pestering dick with concern about tim 'moving on too fast' and 'sleeping around' that she blurts out and admits what they did.

the backlash is swift and severe and dick deserves every moment of it. he's fucked up the one good thing in his life and now tim was trying to cope by going out on dates and..dick knows he has no right to feel hurt.

but it had been almost a year of dating before he and tim got intimate. he'd been tim's first he'd been the only person tim had ever had sex with and now...

it stops for awhile and dick is relieved. he thinks of maybe visiting tim at his apartment but knows that wouldn't go well. he thinks of doing lots of things. finding ways to show tim that he will remain loyal to him, that he'll wait as long as it takes.

he and barbara hardly talk anymore and when they do they keep it professional. anything more and the rest of the family side eye them.

things get better. slowly.

and then it turns out that tim is dating damian. damian who'd been firmly on tim's side when it came out. who had followed tim around and taken to guarding him when he and tim were in the same area.

it hurt. to know that damian's opinion of him sunk so much.

but it doesn't hurt nearly as much as knowing that he and tim are together.

the family is...skeptical. concerned. dick knows bruce tries saying something but gets shut down by damian about how the two of them are free to make their own choices even if they may not like them.

there is some concern that tim is just using damian for company or comfort. but...then they see how they are together. damian and tim had always been snarky with each other but now it seems they've turned it more outward. the family ends up leaving a gala early when the two make a few of the guests cry for some stupid comment they made about damian's new animal welfare charity.

the two get along well they...look good together.

tim is wearing a slim fitting sleek dress and damian is wearing a nice suit with a bow tie complimenting tim's jewlery. they coordinated outfits to show a united front which is such a them thing to do.

but...the thing that really hitches dick's breath is the earrings.

both damian and tim are each wearing a single pearl earring. damian on the left ear and tim on the right. the earrings were from a single set that the two split between them and it was..such a romantic gesture.

it gave dick a pit in his stomach. but he continued believing...thinking that maybe this could be fixed. that he could have tim back.

but then....almost a year later. tim is pregnant. he's pregnant and he and damian are getting married and...and...dick cries.

god the night before the wedding he sits in the hotel room of where its going to be held and he just sobs. the rest of the family is busy with preparations, they're all members of the wedding party. jason is officiating, alfred is damian's best man, bruce is walking tim down the aisle. and dick...dick is going to be seated in the second row of the venue. behind damian and tim's close friends and...god it hurts more every time he thinks about it.

this isn't...this isn't what was supposed to happen.

some part of dick thinks about objecting, of standing in the middle of the ceremony and begging tim to take him back but...god the rest of dick stamps that down because he does not want to take more from tim than he already has.

dick is miserable as he watches tim marry damian. he feels like someone is carving his heart out with a blunt butter knife.

that could've been him. dressed up as a groom, smiling so softly at tim as his bride. tim glowing with joy and happiness while his sweet womb was full with their child.

that could've been him.

and now dick had no one. nothing. tim was going to marry someone else, start a family with someone else, love someone else and dick...dick would be stuck outside watching.

and he had no one to blame but himself.

[gendrie]

Realistically, what note do you think or hope the books will end in regard to Arya and Gendry? I don’t expect fanfic wish fulfillment but Grrm seems to have a soft spot for them so maybe a vague romantic suggestion that leaves their future open to interpretation? Which I realize is not much different to where we’re already at lol but I just can’t imagine how their relationship would develop.

when i consider what arya/gendry will look like in the end, or just the future in general, i think about whats already in the text. the elements of romance and even sexuality within their interactions are more than a lil suggestive. ie: the two of them rolling around together is not subtle lol. the phrase "between his legs" is used twice in that paragraph. grrm wrote an exclusive to a/g love song and had the singer wink as he sang it. he introduced not one, but 2 characters mostly just to fan the flames here. gendry explicitly threatens to have sex with a girl to try to make arya jealous and he visibly dislikes a perceived rival for her attention. ect! this isn't some obscure aspect of the story. its a legitimate side plot.

so i wouldn't even describe their existing canon interactions as "vague" therefore i don't assume their future ones, endgame included, would be left entirely up to interpretation either. are they going to get married on page? and consummate the union? no. but i do expect their future interactions to continue to be obviously romantic in nature. esp now that arya is older (and gendry seems to be younger)

with all that in mind here are my realistic thoughts:

when arya returns from braavos she will rekindle her friendship with gendry and realize she's attracted to him. gendry, having endured the loss of arya, will be willing to commit to her regardless of the issues that forced them apart previously. its all going to be pg-13 and tame by asoiaf standards but they will be crushing and it's not going to be a secret. not to the readers nor anyone who happens to witness the two of them together.

as i see it theres two potential outcomes: the class difference is still insurmountable and they remain apart or they end up together in some capacity. this will probably be a controversial claim, but a/g have less barriers to being together long term than any other ship imo. consistently, throughout their relationship, gendry being "too bloody lowborn" for arya is THE issue. its the source of all the conflict between them and its the thing keeping them apart. other than that? they clearly like and admire each other. arya trusts gendry, values his perspective, and confides in him things she tells no other character. she wanted him to come home with her, to be a part of her pack.

and i want to emphasis that arya values gendry's counsel specifically because thats one aspect of their dynamic that feels very relevant within the context of their potential as a grown up couple. they make a good team and work well together. they've already endured the bleakest possible scenarios by working together. gendry is presented as a really fitting partner for arya which i think is intentional tbh.

but ultimately, can the class difference be overcome? i think it can. and not only that but i think arya and gendry ending up together can be reflective of the changes we're going to see across the board with westeros' political system. they're not going to abolish the monarchy, but there will be major changes with how the kingdom is run.

the end i envision for them is fairly understated despite all my arguing that their relationship isnt all that subtle. arya asking gendry to come home with her to winterfell (again) would be enough, but thats not vague to me either. the meaning will be clear.

all that being said HEAs are not going to plentiful in asoiaf. grrm likes "we'll always have paris" type romances where two people meet and change each other, but go their separate ways. it could be that is what happens with arya and gendry. im realistic, if not bordering on pessimistic, so i want to embrace that possibility! but everything on paper is telling me they're supposed to end up together. not least of all bc in order for this romantic build up to actually come to full fruition they have to be grown which won't be until post series.

i try to keep my expectations low too but is it wish fulfillment to expect substantial pay off? idk.......grrm has been teasing love, sex and even marriage with arya and gendry for like the entire series actually. since that "arya has the hands of a blacksmith" comment in the first paragraph of her first chapter. he better do something!!!

[chirpsythismorning]

Idk what’s worse, the fact that there are milkvans out there that believe El commissioned Will’s painting, or that a majority of milkvans believe she didn’t, but still think everything Will said to Mike in the van scene applies to how El feels about Mike as well. And honestly, how could they not? Mike looked very happy and emotional hearing Will's words in the van... no shit they're hoping that's how El feels.

But El never called Mike the heart. El never said she needed Mike and always will. Those words coming from Will's feelings for Mike, then being used to inspire Mike to give his monologue to El, was disingenuous bc it was never El’s feelings being responded to in the first place.

‘It only works if it comes from you’

That’s the whole problem. It didn’t work bc it was coming from Will, not El.

IF everything Will said applied to El, why not have it come from her?

No, but seriously??

Is s5 just going to open up to El apologizing to Mike for ignoring him after the monologue, followed by her just repeating everything Will said with her own twist and Mike being like cool!! That works for me!

The problem with making the narrative choice to instead focus on Will's feelings at the forefront, only to follow it up with El's identical feelings, does nothing but make the whole thing fall flat.

Instead of seeing this main couple voice their love for each other themselves, I gotta have her brother do it for her?? And only then after he does it, can I see her do it in like a 2.0 version of sorts????

So many milkvans are willing to acknowledge that Mike and El’s dynamic throughout the series is riddled frivolous conflict more than anything, with little to no time dedicated to showing the development that actually matters. They say they wish the show spent more time with them actually face to face acknowledging how they both feel verbally without the constant cloud of some other third party interfering, causing them to have issues. They say that this time though, they think the Duffers will magically pull through for them and go from what they believe is shitty writing to ‘good’ writing, based in terms of how they'll handle Mike and El's relationship in s5...

But that's not realistic on any front, milkvan, byler or otherwise.

And that's a big part of the problem, bc they know the pacing has not been great for them, and they NEED the show to just give them Mike and El so they can be happy, but that's not how you build up suspense for a love story. And dragging out Mike and El any more, would just be a repeat of every other season before. They reached their peak and so they can only down from here. That's kind of the whole point.

One thing to note is that the Duffers always create conflict for the incompatible couple early in a season, so that the audience doesn’t feel too uncomfortable with the idea of considering the other option that’s at the forefront for the rest of the season.

This will ESPECIALLY be the case for byler, bc Will already has home wrecker allegations as it is. And it's also a highly controversial queer ship, and so people are going to be making claims left and right that it’s wrong bc of xyz.

They just wont be able to have byler scenes loaded with romantic tension all season long, more than any other season, and with the story making it more obvious they want us to root for them, while also having Mike and El still be together. And it's simply bc the reality is the Duffers have a record of doing the complete opposite of that.

This is also endgame territory, so there is a serious pressure on the writers part to get their audience to be closer to rooting for byler than denying it even being possible. Meaning they NEED the audience to be watching their first kiss and, for better or worse, be thinking, FINALLY just get it over with already!

Also what's El's supposed to be up to while this is happening? Are we assuming she's just stringing along waiting for Mike to get his shit together? Like Jesus!

El has every right to say her piece and get that shit over with, by episode 1 or 2 at the latest. She could be a focused on Max and her family and friends, which if you'll note also includes Mike and Will, but instead this time without the pressure of her having to hope that something will turn around and suddenly Mike will decide he finally loves her... She doesn't deserve that.

Byler is clearly the route they are taking. If that is the plan, it's time to make this separation so that the audience is finally confronted with viewing Mike and El without the constant rose tinted love at first sight goggles, and instead give them a chance to be their authentic selves.

And I think El, being a character that could barely speak in s1, that her not getting her own voice in this situation is fucking serious. El not being able to say those words to Mike herself, like there's a reason for that. And so when she finally does get to say how she feels, there isn't going to be any room for subtext or misunderstanding, not on the audiences part nor Mike's. El has always been pretty clear about what she wants and I think that will apply in s5 now more than ever.

[kaladinkholins]

hot take time about the mizu and akemi ship. y'all can disagree but i said what i said, because again, it's just an opinion!!!!

putting the rest under a cut so y'all are free to ignore this if you want. i'm just rambling anyway and, again, these are just my personal opinions.

okay like i gotta hand it to blue eye samurai like it's genuinely impressive that they've written their characters so well, like each one of them feels so real and fully-realised

and as a consequence of that, it actually. for the first time ever. has me rooting against a sapphic ship becoming canon endgame LIKE LMAO ???? i didn't think that was POSSIBLE but here we are ???

cuz like if you know me at all you know i usually instantly latch onto any femslash ship at any given opportunity. like i don't think yall understand. i was ride or die for korrasami before it was even remotely a thing, like at that point korrasami was still a CRACK SHIP in the fandom and i was gunning for it immediately and begging them both to leave mako's stupid ass!!!

but SOMEHOW this show, with all its gender fuckery galore and all its well written characters, has somehow made me look at the mizu/akemi ship and say "i'll pass." like dont get me wrong i was pinning my hopes on it initially in the first episode, but by the time i got to the end??? NAH.

like don't get me wrong they ARE cute and sexy on paper and i DO definitely see them developing feelings for each other (mizu towards akemi especially, less so the other way around because akemi just does not strike me as the pining type) but for an endgame? nah. it'd be weird and messy for both of them like!!! they'd be bad for each other!!!

they both want and need completely different things in life (mizu wants vengeance but needs acceptance/belonging; akemi wants freedom but needs autonomy and empowerment).

and they don't even share much in common that would help them bond in a romantic way? like not even interests-wise, but like. personality-wise too. their perceptions of life and approaches and experiences all directly contrast each other. like i know that they're narrative foils and all, which is great, excellent really, but romantically? there is no common ground between them.

besides, of course, both being AFAB and struggling with the patriarchy and misogyny, both having a surrogate father figure who raised them (swordfather for mizu; seki for akemi). aside from those things, they diverge in almost every single way?

like i do get the appeal of the "yin and yang" dynamic of opposites attract in ships (i have so many such ships from other fandoms after all), so i do suppose that, if given enough time for a really long and intense slow burn, it could work. but with all the plot plot plot the show's got going on, i don't know if that's going to be possible, especially now that mizu is ??? apparently going to london ????

and what would their endgame even look like? the two of them running off into the sunset together? why? when akemi has everything she wants and needs in edo palace? which, by the way, is completely the opposite of what mizu wants and needs, as mizu needs a place where she is free to be herself and is accepted and loved for who she is. she does not need, nor want, a life of political intrigue. she is not made for it, nor is it meant for her. akemi, on the other hand, is perfectly suited for such a life, while being completely unsuited for a life on the road, travelling, or living on a farm in the middle of nowhere. nor would akemi like or enjoy such a life either! she'd get freedom, yes, but it would hardly be fulfilling, especially now that she has decided that she wants greatness!

i don't know. if they become canon endgame, the show better put in the work. because this is a netflix adult animated show with the freedom to do that (unlike, say, cartoons on nickelodeon and disney where the creators all faced heavy censorship to get some rep in), so if they're taking the sapphic endgame route, they better buck up and put their backs into it because seeing the state of it right now, the chemistry is bone-dry and the prospects are disastrous!!!!

so until further developments prove me wrong and change my mind, every time i see mizu/akemi content somehow escape the confines of the mute function, i just reenact the gengar gay wrongs gif:

[thiscoldheart]

sydcarmy braindump

one of the things i noticed as i've been posting gifs of the bear s2 is that there is a LOT of support for sydcarmy...which makes me comfortable enough to share some thoughts about them and their future ☺️

back when only s1 was out i thought i was crazy for seeing romantic undertones and largely kept that to myself. i was happy to see this dynamic go either way (platonic or romantic) back when it was more ambiguous in s1 but now it's becoming more obvious, isnt it? seeing that literally everyone and their mother is picking up on these not-so-platonic signals makes me feel less alone.

i'm just praying we don't go the ted lasso route where the showrunners bait us with tedbecca endgame only for it to mean nothing. i would much rather that this relationship remain platonic, wholesome and complex than to be fooled and constantly misled. if anything i hope this goes more of the mentalist route where our main leads jane and lisbon spent a lot of time as just co-workers, only to eventually end up as a couple in the final season. in this scenario, we still get to have the 'will they/won't they' build up and thrill, plus we also get to spend some time with them as a couple when they're ready for it. their dynamic is tested countless times but they always go back to each other throughout the seasons, stronger and closer than before.

i don't understand why there's such a loud and vehement response against this ship online and i won't even bother to. if the ship becomes canon, it isn't bad or lazy writing, its just a natural development that we can trace all the way back to s1. and if they remain platonic, then ohh boy that's gonna be fun to unpack. i think if they decide to keep them platonic just because "you don't see it often on television", then imo THAT'S lazy. there's clearly potential here and it would be a shame to see it go to waste all in the name of being different and edgy. this show still stands out amongst so many others because of its writing, directing, character studies, premise, etc. so leaning into a romance would not be a disservice to the story/writing in any way, unless syd and carmy are reduced to only being love interests. i wouldn't be too happy about that either because both characters are so fully fleshed out and have their own pasts, presents and futures that they need to work on together, but also individually too.

but hey that's just my opinion 🤷‍♀️

despite all that i guess all i really hope for, more than anything else, is that we get satisfying stories and arcs for our bear fam 🙏🙏 i don't want my expectations to be sky high so i will remain cautiously optimistic 👍

p.s. thanks for all your support for the gifs! if you have any suggestions for gifsets, pls hit me up because my well of ideas has run dry 🥲 let's see what the next season will have in store for us 💙

[beepboop358]

Hi. I am/was a mileven defender until I saw that scene in the van and Mike's copy pasted monologue that felt like it wasn't even meant for El but for Will.

As a straight person, I don't think I can relate to a queer person's frustration or anger over Season 4 even if I tried.

And I'm sorry but that's why it's hard for me to understand why you guys have given up on your ship when it's obvious that my people are the ones that should be getting prepared for a massive straight bait.

I hate to even think about it and it saddens me to the core but Mike is clearly projecting. He doesn't feel about El the way he feels about Will and it shows. I think El truly loves Mike tho so it's even more frustrating to me.

I wanted mileven to work so badly and I still do but given Mike's strange behavior and the way Will and Mike look at each other and the way they stand side by side between two other canon ships in the final scene and actually all their scenes together, it's hard to not to believe that your ship is the one they're going for.

I guess it's a good thing that they are planning on making the gay ship endgame. I know you guys need some decent representation and I'm sorry about the people that are mocking you for it on Twitter or in real life. All of that doesn't mean I suddenly started shipping them tho. I'm still clinging on to mileven. Probably forever.

I just wanted to acknowledge that I think it's weird that many of you have lost hope. But again, I can't really relate to the things queer people are experiencing and going through on a daily basis so I want to apologize if anything I just said was insensitive.

hello!

This was really interesting to read, thank you so much for sharing, genuinely! I hadn’t thought about it from this perspective before because i’ve mostly seen mike/el fans only celebrating after s4, and i’ve gotten several rude messages since vol. 2’s release over me being delusional and crazy for thinking byler would ever happen. It’s super interesting we are both doubting our ships and convinced the other will now be canon after s4… and I find it really fascinating that as a mileven shipper you thought Mike’s speech to El sounded like it was meant for Will…

I still have faith that byler could happen, and the ending shots really make me think it will, but i’m worried that they won’t be able to fix the damage they did to it in s4 fully, in s5, because I thought the writing in s4 was very different than what we have previously seen in the show, and so many characters didn’t get the development i thought they deserved. Regardless of whose ship ends up being endgame, I just hope that they fix it and actually resolve something in s5 so it ends on a healthy note for the couple. I believe everyone should ship whoever they want, so its totally fine by me if you don’t ship byler. Also, thank you <3 It definitley sucks to be mocked by so many people rn LOL.

I hope you’re well! xx

[epicstuckyficrecs]

Weekly Recap | November 14th- December 31st 2022.

Happy New Year everyone!

One thing I did not have on my bingo card for 2022 was loosing interest in Stucky in favour of a four month old Stranger Things ship of all things, but alas, here we are ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I still love Stucky and I will always ship it, but unfortunately my brain has latched on to this shiny new ship and it just sparks more joy at the moment. So I guess what I'm saying is... I don't know how frequently I will be updating this blog in the future, if at all. I'm not deleting anything, the ask box will remain open, and I'll still be around! But I'm afraid this is the end of the Weekly Recaps as you've known them for the last... three to four years. I hope you've enjoyed them!

Complete

Work Husbands by darter_blue/ @darter-blue (Modern AU, Office Romance, Christmas | 4K | General): 5 times the office calls Bucky and Steve work husbands and one time they forget the 'work'

The stars look very different today by Bittersweet_in_Boston (Post-TFATWS, Endgame Fix-It | 3K | Explicit): “So what’s the mission?” he asks Fury once his belly is full. “Do I get a briefing or what?” “Patience,” Fury says, maddeningly calm. His utility suit is, of course, black, and Bucky has a brief, hysterical thought of him wearing a giant leather duster over it. “You’ll be briefed when we get there.” “Where is there? And why me?” Bucky doesn’t know why he’s being obstreperous, except that he’s flying through space at thousands of miles an hour with a dead man who won’t tell him anything. “Someone’s been asking for you,” says Fury, answering only his second question. And again Bucky thinks of Steve.

Bucky Barnes and the Christmas Spirit by this_wayward_life/ @wayward-lives (Modern AU, Christmas | 3K | Teen): Bucky's never celebrated Christmas. Steve sets out to change that.

sugar, spice and everything nice by buckyismybicycle/ @buckyismybicycle (Modern AU, Christmas | 3K | General): A couple of confused baristas, two cat adoptions and a cuddle pile later, Bucky has a perfect Christmas.

Dashing Through the Snow by HaniTrash/ @hanitrash (University AU, A/B/O | 7K | Explicit): Steve hates Bucky. Bucky hates him, too, so that’s fine. But when they’re forced to work together and co-teach a class, that anger begins to fade as they slowly learn more about each other. A work trip gone wrong, though, forces them to become much closer than either one ever expected…

Jingle Bell Rock by mxaether, Oh_i_swear/ @oh-i-swear-writes (Modern AU, Office Romance, Christmas | 19K | Explicit): Steve Rogers and Bucky Barnes both work for Stark Industries and are lucky enough to have been invited on the company Christmas retreat. Unfortunately, neither of their partners can make it. Thanks to a mess up with the room booking it seems they're going to be spending a whole lot more time together than either had planned or wanted, but they seem pretty determined to 'lighten' things up, somehow...

WIP

💙 hey now, you’re an all star (get your game on, go play) by buckyismybicycle/ @buckyismybicycle (NHL Hockey AU | 18/? | 55K | Explicit): Boston Bruins trade notorious party animal/human disaster Bucky Barnes to the Dallas Stars, and captain Steve Rogers is not impressed when Fury puts him on babysitting duties. But, as he gets to know Bucky - really gets to know Bucky - he wonders if maybe the media has got it all wrong - very, very wrong.

All the Ways to Say I Love You That Don’t Work by buckybarnesdeservestobehappy (hutchabelle)/ @buckybarnesdeservestobehappy (Post-WS | 7/10 | 15K | Explicit): Finally free from the grips of Hydra, Bucky Barnes needs all the help he can get to acclimate to life in the twenty-first century. Steve’s always at Bucky’s side, providing support, explaining things, and throwing a reassuring arm around his shoulders, which gives Bucky all kinds of warm feelings. The other Avengers notice their closeness, as well. When Bucky overhears a discussion about whether or not Steve and he are dating, he isn’t bothered. He likes being with Steve, and he likes being treated respectfully. Determined to let Steve know how much Bucky cares about him, he uses his research on modern dating to woo his best friend. As he ratchets up his campaign to catch Steve’s attention, sparks fly. Or maybe those sparks were there all along.

[mlchaelwheeler]

Why Mike and El Shouldn't (And Won't) Be Endgame

Before I start this analysis of sorts, I just want to say that yes, I do believe byler will be endgame, but I will be taking an objective perspective to Mike and El's respective characters, as well as their relationship with each other. That aside, let's dive in!

Mike and El meet at a very eventful time in both of their lives. For Mike, his best friend of 7 years has just gone missing. For El, she's just escaped a prison (the lab) where she's spent her whole life. They are pushed together by a mutual need: Mike needs El to find Will, and El needs Mike to survive the real world, and stay away from the "bad men." It's clear throughout S1 that Mike and El have created a special bond--while some call it romantic, I don't think that's really on their minds. What they want (and need at this point) is a strong friendship.

El has just escaped from the only place she's ever known, thrust into a new world she knows nothing about, and in which she knows no one. Should she be jumping into a romantic relationship 2ish days after meeting Mike? No, she absolutely should not. I doubt she even understands what romance is, let alone the difference between being Mike's friend or his girlfriend--to her, they likely mean the same thing: Mike cares about her. It's the same for Mike. S1 shows (and tells) us over and over again that Mike isn't thinking about El as a possible girlfriend. Lucas tells him: "if you love her so much, why don't you marry her?" Dustin questions why Mike doesn't understand why Lucas is upset and has to spell it out that Lucas is jealous of El--jealous that Mike is wasting time on her when they could be looking for Will at the lab. Even Nancy asks Mike if he likes El. To all 3 of these querys, Mike responds negatively or is confused. He clearly isn't thinking about El romantically, but he is starting to realize maybe he should be, since everyone is asking him about her.

For me, S1 is the purest and best form of Mike and El's relationship. It's their true dynamic together before they're forced to conform to outside expectations. Once S2 starts, we see El watching romantic soap operas on tv, likely shaping her view of what romance is like. After her rushed kiss with Mike in the S1 finale, she's likely realizing that this means she's Mike's girlfriend now, and should be initiating romantic interactions between them. From the soap operas, she's getting a very over exaggerated view of what romance is--however, she has no way to tell that it's not realistic. In soap operas, people break up all the time and get back together the next episode. It's normal, right? She sure thinks so. This will go on to skew her views of her relationship with Mike. No matter what they go through, or how he treats her, it will always work out in the end. That's how the soap operas go anyways. El is clinging to a sense of perceived normalcy because she so desperately wants to be normal for once.

While Mike doesn't see El much in S2 (he's with Will all season), he calls her on the radio every night since she goes missing. Lots of people read this as romantic and a big love confession of sorts, but I think Mike would've done this for any one of the Party. Time and time again, we're shown how loyal Mike is to his friends--remember, this is the same Mike who jumped off a cliff to save Dustin's teeth!! He obviously felt massive guilt over El's "death" in the S1 finale. She slept in his basement, helped him find Will alive, relied on him to keep her safe from the "bad men," and then "died" keeping him and his friends safe? No wonder he called her every night hoping she was still out there--after all, he did see her that same night outside his living room window, so he did have a reason to hope she'd actually hear him. Again though, if Lucas or Dustin would've disappeared instead of El, I think Mike would've called them on the radio too, trying to reach them. Remember, all throughout S1, Mike believed (not really) that Will was dead--and even saw his body!--but still attempted to contact him over the radio multiple times. If he did this for Will, obviously he would for El too. These are parallels that should be noticed together.

Moving on to S3, this is the first time we see Mike and El as an actual couple. This is obviously the first relationship for either of them, and it's made clear from the start of the season that they're not better together than they are apart. Whereas their interactions are sweet and inclusive of their friends in S1 and S2, come S3, they're ignoring everyone in favor of constantly making out. They don't even really talk to each other! When Mike tries singing, El tells him to stop and just resumes kissing him. When Mike tries to find El a gift at the mall, he is unable to do so--not because he doesn't have enough money, but because he has no idea what she'd actually like.

The sad thing is, no matter what he'd pick out, El would probably love it, because it's from Mike. S3 makes it clear El hasn't grown her sense of identity at all since escaping the lab--nearly 2 years prior! She sadly asks Max at the mall, "how do I know what I like?" She's never actually stopped to consider what she might enjoy because she just always goes along with whatever Mike or Hopper tells her. That's not really anyone's fault, it's just how it is because they're teaching her about the normal world. She's been learning so much that she hasn't had time to stop and think about what she enjoys. Luckily, the break she gets from Mike allows her to explore other possibilities--new styles, new food, and new friendships. Her time with Max is the time when she arguable gets the most growth character-wise in the series. She can focus on herself without being caught up in Mike.

I should also point out here that the story makes it clear that El only grows as a character when she's apart from Mike. This is intentional--when she's Mike's girlfriend, she is stagnant as a character. In S2, her solo adventure to discover her past helps her understand her roots and develop her powers. She becomes more independent--traveling to Mama's house and Chicago by herself, which is a huge step for her after not leaving the lab for 12 years. Then, she gets back to Hawkins and "defeats" the mindflayer, but from that point on her character falls short, as she goes back to Mike. She regains this sense of independence and agency in S3 after she breaks up with Mike, and has more development up until she loses her powers. When 3 months go by, and she's moving, she seems to be back to how she was before the breakup--completely dependent on Mike. We see this again in the opening of S4. Her room is a literal shrine to Mike! She has't made any friends, has isolated herself emotionally and physically, and is sending letters full of lies to Mike. When Mike arrived in California, they go back to their old S3 selves, but things are a bit off because El's covering for her lies. She's obviously angry because Mike can't tell her he loves her, so she's in tune that something in their relationship is wrong. Unfortunately, El sees her worth as being tied to her powers, so when Dr. Owens gives her the opportunity to get them back, she jumps at the chance. Maybe Mike will love her if she goes to become a superhero again. After all, that's why he "fell in love" with her in the first place right? Because she used her powers to find Will and save them from the demogorgan?

El's narrative has been building up her independence since the beginning of S2. She has to realize that her powers do not define her--she's worth so much for just being her! If Mike tells her he loves her just after she gets her powers back, it will feel cheap. El should be affronted by this, and should rightfully call him out. Mike can find thousands of other reasons to love El besides her powers! If he can't say it, well, there must be a deeper reason. I think that by diving into her past, El has been able to understand her trauma more fully and grow from that, triggering her hopeful resurgence of independence. However, the story has made it clear that she can't do that while being in a romantic relationship with Mike.

Speaking of Mike, let's look closer at how his interactions with El have changed after becoming her boyfriend vs when they were just friends. I think everyone can agree that Mike and El were adorable in S1. Their smiles, their understanding that they were both missing something (a home and a best friend), and their actions say it all. However, these are all platonic things, and I think they both viewed themselves as just friends until other people brought romantic feelings into the equation. In S1, Mike shows lots of emotion when interacting with El: his smile and voice after she saves him from the cliff ("El, you're not the monster, you saved me. You saved me!"), explaining what friendship is, setting up the basement fort for her, yelling at Papa as he takes her away, etc. Mike also shows emotion with her in S2, before they're properly "together." However, his interactions with her feel much more forced and unemotional with her from S3 onward. He doesn't even seem a bit sad after El breaks up with him--if anything, he seems offended, not something someone who just lost the love of their life should feel. When he tries to clue El into his feelings in the grocery store, he stutters around the real words, unable to make eye contact or say "I love you." When she confesses her love to him before moving away, he doesn't respond and looks downright confused after their kiss. When she confronts him about "from Mike" in S4, Mike is stiff and unemotional as El sobs in front of him. He blames other people for their problems when the real problem is himself. This isn't the same Mike as S1-2, where he would've shown at least some emotion and done anything to make El feel better.

These are key narrative choices that the show has been pushing to show that something's not right--things are not as they should be. If we step back and look at Mike and El's narratives as a whole, it's clear that they're both worse versions of themselves when they're together. Mike becomes an unemotional puppet of himself, simply going through the motions of being in a relationship. El becomes completely dependent and lost in a fantasy world of soap opera-type relationships, and is unable to cope with faced with real-world problems. If the show has constantly pushed this idea, how does it make sense that they'd end up together? Why stunt the development of 2 main characters just to have Mike and El end in a romantic relationship? It's clear that they're the most genuine with each other--and the rest of their friends/family--when they're platonic with a capital P. The narrative isn't building up to a big romantic confession, it's leading to a mutual understanding that they never shouldn't rushed into a relationship they neither wanted nor understood in the first place.

[utilitycaster]

I’m I the only one who finds it alarming that most of this fandom who ship Imogen and Laudna (especially on twitter) don’t realize the unhealthyness thats going on in their relationship? They literally see two women to are affectionate with each other and say “ENDGAME!” “GIRLFRIENDS!” “MARRIED!” “KISS KISS KISS!” Then they focus on quotes that are kinda alarming, and Imogen’s Jealousy is pretty fucking Alarming! Saying that they are in love and just haven’t realized it yet. (Don’t get me started on that one blog on here counting down the days “till imodna realizes their in love.” I find it so fucking annoying.) Loving someone and being IN love with someone is two different things. Also another thing! I HATE THAT PEOPLE CALL THEM LESBIANS! THE BOTH HAVE EXPRESSED FEELINGS FOR MALE PERSENTING PEOPLE! I dread the day when the campaign ends and they don’t end up together or during the campaign fall IN love with someone that’s not each other. Especially if it’s a male persenting person, because the Laura and Marisha will be harassed and the shippers will yell Queerbait, also the men hating/haters will be in full force. 

Hi anon,

I agree with most of this; I'm answering under a cut in the hopes that people who will be upset by an answer will be able to avoid it, without me having to explicitly discourse tag it and in doing so throw it to people who troll that tag to get mad at things. Also this is SUPER long and covers a lot of the thoughts I've had percolating on the CR fandom/shipping culture in general.

I think I and a lot of people who primarily deal in meta/analysis in this fandom have been inching ever closer to a lot of the points you've made here, and I am generally very willing to be the one who snaps and says "yeah has anyone noticed the emperor has literally no clothes on like what the fuck".

Let's start with the end and work backwards: It's happened before, it will happen again if Laura and Marisha's characters do not get together, and it's irritating, but like, I will take a good story and the consequences of a shitty segment of the fandom rather than the path of least resistance every time. I almost said something to this effect on the positive vibes ask last night, but like...there will always be people who are hateful and stupid on the internet, so you may as well stand in your own truth rather than fear their consequences. (Not that I don't respect the choice to quietly avoid harassment; I am the way I am because I know at this point I can take a pretty hard hit and shut it down, but that has not always been the case.) Anyway, people called an actual canon ship between lesbian characters queerbaiting last campaign, so it's not like those accusations hold any weight or need to be taken seriously; outside of their tiny circle, everyone thinks those people are idiots.

I do, as a bi woman, hate the tendency among hardcore shippers to erase bisexuality. They do it because a bi character's competing ships cannot be as easily dismissed as 'obviously can't happen, they're gay or lesbian', and they don't care how biphobic they look doing it. You are absolutely correct: Imogen and Laudna have both indicated interest in men or masc nb people. (Others have also pointed out that people tend to exclusively use he/him pronouns about Ashton when they are being critical of them, so they don't care how transphobic they look doing it either, apparently; also I don't think Ashton identifies as a he/they lesbian but there are in fact people who do identify as such so like...if your goal is to eliminate Ashton/Laudna as an option by saying Laudna is a lesbian, against all evidence to the contrary, you also need to make a number of presumptions about Ashton's sexuality and gender identity as well.)

This brings me to a tricky section about fandom in general but I think it's worth saying. In the real world, homophobia and transphobia are very real. They negatively impact our lives in heartbreaking and deadly ways. It is still the norm in most US media for the bulk of relationships shown to be between a cis man and a cis woman, and for protagonists to be cis and straight (note: also often able-bodied, male, white, etc but the focus of this discussion is queerness so I'm not covering all axes of oppression). However, in many fandom spaces, queer characters and ships are the fan favorites. Tumblr's userbase does skew heavily queer, and additionally, tends to skew towards women. In other words, a lot of things that are very true in real life do not hold in fandom spaces.

Which is to say: we're in a situation where an F/F ship is the massive juggernaut for the fandom right now. It does not mean that lesbians (or bi women who enter into relationships with other women) are not oppressed in the real world; it does mean that within the highly specific space of the Critical Role fandom, people are more likely to be in favor of this ship than not. It also means that a lot of the people who aren't into it are not homophobes, but are queer people - often even wlw - who are saying "I would like F/F ships! I would like them to actually be good." Like, to me, the only difference between Imogen and Laudna and every M/F canon relationship on network TV that's made me go "you're telling me they should be together, but I don't see it" is that they're both women (and I would bet a large sum that for a lot of people, this isn't about the dynamic, but purely about the gender of the people involved, ie, if Imogen were a man played by one of the men in the cast people wouldn't ship it, where as I personally can comfortably say I'd ship any of the canon ships from past campaigns regardless of character gender. This also admits that biological essentialism is fake and that Exandria is pretty gender equalthough, which some people don't want to do.)

Part of why I've been so frustrated is that, at least from my perspective, the overwhelming majority of hate and harassment I've seen within the fandom in Campaign 3 - and in Campaign 2 - has been from people who have shipped Marisha and Laura's characters. There has, in fact, been pretty considerable hate as well as measured criticism levied towards M/F ships (we're seeing some with Ashton/Laudna here, but both Fjord/Jester and Caleb/Jester, the latter of which I actively dislike and have openly criticized, received pretty vehement hate last campaign and most of it came from people who shipped Jester with Beau) and M/M ships (less harassment per se but people who shipped Caleb with Jester said some truly awful things about Caleb/Essek; also while I have not, you know, harassed people, I have said essentially the same things about how Taliesin and Liam's characters are shipped every campaign despite often having little connection as I have about Marisha and Laura's. I just don't talk about it as much because while I think and have said that Ashton/Orym is basically nothing - and that Widomauk, which most people vaguely classify as M/M, and for that matter, Percy/Vax, all are basically nothing - no one who ships those has called me a cunt or reblogged my posts in an abusive manner or called me out for the grave sin of preferring canon to fanon, so I respect the ship and let ship of it all.) For that matter, the bulk of hate towards Beauyasha came from people who shipped Beau and Jester. Like...I am confident there are people who dislike this ship specifically because it's between two women, and they are homophobic, but that is not the quarter where I think most of the criticism on Tumblr or Twitter is coming from.

So let's get to the last point. Why do people ship two women simply because they're standing next to each other? Why do they ignore countless red flags - and I am specifically talking about treating Imogen and Laudna's relationship as healthy and loving; not about shipping it in general. I cannot stress enough that if you treat Imogen/Laudna as some kind of toxic Briarwoods situation and are into that, I support that entirely.

There are a few reasons. First and foremost, I think a lot of people project onto characters rather than letting the characters provide them with differing perspectives. I find this deeply sad. It's not that you can't draw parallels between your own life and that of fictional characters or see yourself in them - you're supposed to! But it says something depressing about your empathy if your qualifications for which characters speak to you are only those who match your demographics. Like, I've said before, but my favorite characters from past campaigns are Vex and Fjord, and they have a lot in common! If you relate to one based on their themes of Who You Are In The Dark and the mask you present to the world over a face you don't particularly like, you will probably relate to the other! But also...I am a cis bi woman, I am not a person of color as both those characters are often considered coded to be (though am an ethnic minority), nor did I personally experience extensive emotional abuse and poverty as a child. I think there's value in wanting to see people like you! But also...representation is not just "I want to see people like me"; it's also "I want to humanize people who are not like me". If you cannot relate to someone simply because they don't match your gender or sexuality, then that's a really shallow and cold way to interact with the world. And, specifically in relation to queerness within Critical Role: this is a world that has consistently been depicted as not having homophobia or transphobia. I understand wanting to explore these themes and seeing characters who have experienced them, but like...this is not the media that will reasonably have a one-to-one portrayal of homophobia or transphobia, and you often will need to bend over backwards and project a lot of stuff that simply isn't in the canon to read that into them because the worldbuilding simply doesn't support it. And, to be clear, you can do that; but at that point you're applying a lens that only you can obtain, so you shouldn't be surprised if few people come along with you. (I also think it's kind of dumb to watch a show with 5 cis men on it, four of whom are married to women, and be mad that the story has men in it and that those men sometimes are attracted to women; unpacking this would easily double the length of this already incredibly long post though.)

So: this sets a stage for people coming into the show saying "who looks like me, or can I make to look like me" rather than engaging with what's actually going on. Part of why I've been hesitant on Imogen and Laudna the whole time, though started out much more open to it, is in fact that it was heavily shipped from quite literally the moment that Laura and Marisha were indicated to be playing two women who knew each other from before. We knew nothing about their dynamic other than "existing friendship". So I think a lot of people put the cart before the horse and started shipping, and I do think - and I could be entirely wrong - a lot of them, deep down in their hearts, know that they are twisting their interpretations to match an idea of these two characters that has increasingly been proven not to be true onscreen. Like, I think a lot of people kind of realize that Imogen is putting Laudna in a horrible position here; I think a lot of people realize that their so-called 'unconditional' love that transcends words means there's no room to resolve or even express conflict. Perhaps they don't, but like, I'd like to give people the benefit of the doubt. It's just...I think that because this ship is so all-consuming within the fandom, and because so many people have staked their identities within the fandom on it, they don't know how to leave it and are scared of retaliation if they do.

This is backed up by the slow shift I've described - Imodna started out with "they're already girlfriends" or "they're already in love but just haven't said it" or "what could ever happen other than they become ever closer and eventually kiss" (as witnessed by these questions) to "they realized they were in love during the campaign" to "Imogen is in love with Laudna but Laudna isn't aware" to "god remember how they used to talk, I'd give anything for it" to "I guess a QPR is okay" (which is itself bizarre, like, the issues I see in their relationship are still just as much issues in a nonsexual partnership as a sexual one; honestly, it's not a healthy friendship though it is an interesting one and the problem's I have are not going to be fixed by kissing.) Like, it's not the normal evolution of feelings one might have about a ship as the show goes on and more information is revealed, or rather, it's a ship that's becoming less and less confident as time goes on which is the opposite of how canon ships tend to go. (Which, I need to stress, does not discount that it could not be canon; it's just that I think it would require a pretty profound shakeup and conflict to do so). The signs and signals are becoming more and more tenuous and the shippers keep lowering and lowering the bar.

Since I've already brought up past campaigns and ships, let's do it again for the sake of illustration; this feels like how people who shipped Caleb and Jester went from ENDGAME to "Caleb is pushing away Jester to protect her" to "I think Laura is biting her lip when she's looking at Liam! This is a SIGN" even in episodes where Jester was like, actively making out with Fjord, to, and I am not making this up, posting pictures of the CR shop showing Laura in Caleb merch as evidence. Or how the bulk of Vex/Keyleth shipping in TLOVM rested on a scene in the trailer where Keyleth was staring dreamily and drunkenly into space while Vex was across the table only for the show to reveal Keyleth was staring at Vax. Like, all shipping does require a certain degree of cherrypicking, but there is a point where you are focused only on subtext and never text, and while that was how one had to interact with queer stories in the past, it's ridiculous to be doing it on a show where Marisha has openly RP-ed Beau eating Yasha out. Like, if they wanted to show two women being romantically involved, they will. (There's been a lot of Xena comparisons thrown around, and like...not that Xena isn't an important part of the history of depicting F/F relationships in media, but it is also a syndicated show from the 90s and couldn't show an explicitly lesbian relationship, and Critical Role very much can and has.)

I do think there are a subset of people who don't realize how unhealthy this is. Like...this is a whole psychological thing that I am unequipped to unpack, but I do think there are people for whatever reasons genuinely do believe that love means never having to say you're sorry. I am hoping this is because of youth and inexperience, because being able to communicate and advocate for yourself is a crucial part of relationships, as is the ability to express and resolve conflict. As you've noticed, the people who ship this have all said "well, obviously, Imogen won't betray Laudna" - but we don't know that. Honestly I think it could go either way. But they have to make that assumption to keep shipping it, because if Imogen might betray Laudna, then that does mean that there would have been more meaning and value in Laudna speaking up and that conversation was deeply flawed.

I also think some of this comes from unconditional love being an unreasonable expectation foisted upon us all at large. There are always conditions, or rather, you might always in some way love someone, but there are conditions under which you'd leave or boundaries you will draw. You can love someone who (for example) is dealing with an addiction but still refuse to let them drive while intoxicated or steal your stuff to pay for drugs. You can love someone who cheats on you but still want to end that relationship. I mean, while fear, self-doubt, and resources/logistics are all factors in people leaving abusive relationships, it's also true that a lot of people have some affection for the good times and that is a factor as well. Love is not a simple on/off switch. You can feel multiple things at once - honestly, that's what Ashton basically says this past episode, that they both love and hate the party! I think Imogen and Laudna do genuinely love each other, though I don't interpret it as romantic; I just also think that there's a lot of stuff they don't like about each other but are unable to express, and which will only become more and more of a threat to a potential romantic (or queerplatonic) relationship if left to fester unresolve. And, to be honest, I suspect real-world homophobia and fandom purity issues are part of why people are so unwilling to discuss why Imogen and Laudna's relationship is unhealthy; because it means admitting that queer relationships can have most of the same problems as straight ones, and possibly admitting that you still find an unhealthy relationship interesting and want to see it played out.

[shortpplfedup]

Yep, just about how I expected that to go. Everybody has choices to make and sides to pick as we head into the story's denouement. This episode felt like the deep breath before the plunge, reminding us of where everybody stands and what they're fighting for. Alliances are formed, battle lines are drawn, and potential dei ex machina are waiting in the wings. The stage is set for the endgame.

Neung doesn't seem interested in settling old scores, and I get why, he's got much bigger fish to fry than all the high school bullshit that loomed so large for him before. Still, those who did him wrong have their own reasons for seeking absolution, so Neung is forced to reopen every one of his old wounds even as he's struggling to hold himself together. And struggling he is, mightily. He's never without bodyguards. He has nobody to talk to but his comatose mother. He goes home to a massive empty house and cries himself to sleep in Palm's tiny bunk bed. His mind is constantly filled with memories of the island, of how happy he was there. He's simply existing, waiting for the knife to come in the dark, hoping he'll be prepared when it does.

I'm pretty sure at this point Chopper isn't making it out of this story alive. What Neung said to him was harsh, but necessary: him wishing Neung well isn't anything near enough, not with his father gone murderous. Pleading with Kit, reasoning with Kit, those are the actions of a kid still hoping for adults to step in and fix things. But Chopper has to understand, like Neung has, that he's not a kid anymore. Kit has lost the plot, and all of Chopper's give-peace-a-chance-we're-all-family-can't-we-all-just-get-along rhetoric isn't helping jack shit. I felt his blood run cold when Kit threatened Ben. Is he going to keep ineffectually begging and pleading until everybody he professes to care about is dead? Is the way he feels about Ben enough to get him off his ass? He's smart enough to outmanoeuvre his dad, but does he have the balls?

Palm for his part has decided that nobody is going to tell him what to do anymore. He might die next to Neung, but that's where he wants to die anyway, whether it's in a hail of gunfire before his 19th birthday or in bed at age eighty. Palm's found his reason, his purpose, and not even Neung can sway him from it.

Ben...what role is Ben set to play in the endgame? He knows he was a coward, what foolish act of bravery might he attempt to make amends?

None of these boys yet sees that they're going to have to work together. They're all trying to protect each other by taking the burdens onto themselves. But if it's one thing this tale has made clear it's that self-sacrifice will get you killed, metaphorically AND literally. To name your main character Neungdiao, to take away everybody he cares about, to leave him isolated and alone...and then to make it so that the only way for him to emerge victorious and alive is to rely on others...god that would be sweet.

Stray Bullets

Phum also has a part to play in the endgame I think. He's a fucking weasel though, so I don't know which side he'll end up on. I can see him going to Kit and making a deal to save his father.

Aun has some atoning to do as well...

I still can't believe they killed off Mam. Did Neung even tell Chanon his wife is dead? He's keeping a lot of things from him it seems.

I like how all of Neung's suits this episode are just a bit too big, it's a great bit of visual storytelling.

I see how Palm is meant to be the best parts of his mother and father.

All the extra scenes from the island were a nice touch. Neung getting into the bath with Palm and just holding him...oof.

The promo gremlins really trying to make us buy that Palm would ever betray Neung is laughable at this point.

[fics-n-stuff]

Alright, so now that I have the definitive results of my poll:

I'm shocked that so few people ship Kitty × Dae. I knew they wouldn't be the favourite since they don't have the exciting/popular tropes but I thought more people would ship them than this.

Kitty × Yuri is really cute, I'm not surprised they're so popular, but I like Yuri × Julianna so much I just can't get on board with it. Yuri was so in love with Julianna all season I just really don't want anything to come between them. However, I really like that Kitty developed her crush on Yuri and discovered this side of her sexuality, I think it was really well handled and a great bit of bi rep. The introduction of a different female love interest would not be unwelcomed by me.

Yes, Kitty × Min Ho is a great grumpy × sunshine enemies to friends to lovers ship, but I really hope that people are acknowledging that, as of the end of S1, Kitty has not shown any romantic interest in Min Ho and his crush is purely one-sided. Not to say that she won't or shouldn't develop those feelings, and they would be cute if they got together, but people shouldn't expect too much too fast. I only say this because I have seen people have these expectations in other fandoms and it not ending well. And I feel this way about Kitty × Yuri too, Kitty has a crush on Yuri, yes, but Yuri hasn't really demonstrated reciprocating feeling. Yes, they had that almost kiss, but I would argue that that is not enough to count as proof of reciprocation. As far as we have been shown, Yuri is still in love with Julianna and sees Kitty as a best friend. But again, that could change.

THREE PEOPLE actually voted for Min Ho × Madison!?

SIX PEOPLE voted for Min Ho × Eunice!? That was so unexpected!!

I don't really have a main endgame ship favourite, I kind of want Kitty to play the field and try out the different combos (though I know lots of people don't like it when shows do too much with too many ships). My only endgame ship is Q and Florian, though I know they have a lot of work to do on their relationship before they get to the point that it's healthy for them to be together long term. They were super cute but they have some serious issues to sort out.

Jina and Professor Lee are also a fun ship, and I like there being a romantic plot between two of the older characters too because it presents a really different kind of dynamic. Jina needs to divorce her husband anyway, that man sucks, and it's pretty clear that her and Lee still have feelings for each other. I think them, Alex and Yuri are such a sweet family and it would be really lovely for them all to have that.

All in all, this is the kind of show that's bound to have alot of different shipping opinions within the fandom. I personally haven't seen any toxicity yet but I've been involved in too many fandoms that engaged in full on shipping wars to not be wary of that potential. This show is so wholesome and I really hope that carries over into the fandom. People do not have to have the same shipping opinions as you, it does not make their opinions any less valid. Just enjoy the show and enjoy the community, consume and create the fanon content that you enjoy and leave other shippers and fanon creators alone.

❤❤

[skullgirrl]

Thoughts on Kat x Dante and Kat x Vergil

I'm suffering through major writers block recently so to try and push myself out of this I'm going to write down my thoughts and hope that they are semi-coherent.💀

I adore a good love triangle.

I see Kat/Vergil and Kat/Dante as two different ship dynamics

Kat/Vergil - right person, wrong time

Kat/Dante - soulmates (whether platonic or romantic)

I am more preferential to Kat/Dante only because we see him actually begin to care for her more than Vergil seems to over the course of the game (if you've seen my blog you know the amount of Kante propaganda I post💀)

The events of the game:

In the beginning of the game, straight off the bat, it's clear Vergil and Kat are very close or "tight" as Dante so eloquently observes😂 Kat and Vergil work as a team. Kat is indebted to Vergil because he helped her out of a tough childhood. Vergil is indebted to Kat because she acts as his right hand. Although, there aren't many scenes in the game where Kat and Vergil are in the same room (much less, hold a conversation together) but we can still assume they're a team and generally like each other. Kat's closer to Vergil than any other member of The Order. Nice, okay...

But then, through the events of the game Kat and Dante have more scenes together. They talk, they trauma bond, and even though at the beginning Dante was weary of trusting Vergil or Kat, he seems to slowly come out of his shell with Kat and trusts them both because of it.

But the siege of The Order's headquarters is really when we get to fully see the "flip":

up until this point, Vergil seemed closer to Kat than Dante was (and perhaps Kat liked Vergil more as well) but the scales have slowly been tipping, increments of weight being adding in Dante's favor.

And then Vergil leaves Kat in the server room😭

the thing most striking to me about this scene imo is that Kat just seems to accept her fate. She accepts that there's no way out for her and accepts her martyrdom for Vergil's cause because Vergil had so easily accepted it too... but Dante doesn't.

He stays with her. He tells her what to do and how to appear the least threatening to the feds. He assures her that he will be back for her even if no one else is.

He shows her a kindness, a thoughtfulness and it humanizes him in this scene.

Dante has to argue with Vergil to go back and save Kat. Dante changes their whole plan because he doesn't want to let this one human girl die. A far cry from the beginning of the game where he brushed them off and said he "preferred to work alone"...

After all this, even after Vergil reveals his plan to rule over the humans, Vergil still seems surprised (or regretful?) that Kat doesn't back him up, but now Kat knows that she can't support him anymore. Vergil is too far gone, too different from the man who saved her from her foster father.

I also just realized that we can see this somewhat mirrored in the framing of the cutscenes:

In most of her scenes with Vergil, Kat is pushed to the back. She's out of focus and otherwise not the main draw of the scene. In fact, it's very easy to overlook her in the shadows.

Whereas in most of her scenes with Dante, Kat takes up as much space on the screen as he does. She's harder to overlook now paired with that fact that she actually has lines in her scenes with Dante. (although this may just be confirmation bias given she has so many more scenes with Dante💀 I think it's a nice parallel)

Closing thoughts, I like both pairings although I feel that the game devs planed for Dante to be endgame. I still like the idea of a love triangle between the three; Dante and Kat close after Vergil's betrayal, Vergil and Kat as old friends turned sour (past crushes? the one who got away possibly?), and Dante and Vergil being brothers but also vying for Kat's attention (blood is thicker than water).

Anyways thanks for reading (or skimming) take this as a treat:

[simpingforhotfictionalcharacters]

when s7ep5 first aired I really wanted buddie endgame by the end of the season or season 8 (y'know if they did it well and tommy stuck around as a good friend. I refuse to accept another LI breaking bucks heart) but now I'm so tired and I can't even look at the buddie tag without getting depressed. I don't even know if I can call myself a buddie endgame truther with how much I'm starting to get annoyed with the ship.

I honestly would still like buddie to be canon but I also just want buck and eddie to be happy and if they are happy with other people while being platonic soulmates raising a child together, I think that could be a great story to tell. I also almost don't want canon buddie because I'm spiteful and rewarding shitty ass behaviour upsets me.

god I'm not envious of the staff of the show. this fandom is really making me feel my age. I have not seen people calling each other traitors over ships before. it's so fucking weird. like I've seen fighting before but not to this scale.

I saw some folks talking about how the bucktommy fics will stop when they breakup and I gotta wonder if this is their first fandom because that is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. Why does buddie have so many fics if being a current canon relationship is what it takes to get fics and other fanworks. it makes no sense. something being canon doesn't change whether or not a fandom will create works for something.

if buck and tommy end then most fan content I imagine will ignore the break up or have them get back together if they're not already an AU in some other way. I really hope we get more AU bucktommy fics.

[kentray]

May I ask your thoughts on the finale as a fellow RoyKeeley shipper :( I was genuinely so disappointed (with the exception of Roy going to therapy becoming Richmond’s manager and Keeley having the idea for a Woman’s football club! ). I just have a lot of feelings and NEED to know why they weren’t endgame?!? Sorry just curious your thoughts.

Thank you for asking. I'm all over the place - angry, sad, resigned. I feel like they purposely wrecked a wonderful storyline and couple who could have worked through their issues together. I question everything about this decision & it impacted my view of S3.

There are some who think the end is actually Ted's dream - a sort of "It's a Wonderful Life" in reverse - how great things will be now that he's gone - all his idealized hopes for his friends. And the way the show framed those things - between the time Ted takes off and lands - makes that plausible. If that were the case, the only possible silver lining is it was done to create a Season 4? Ted didn't look at ease at the end of the show and if you take away the "dream" part, there was lots more story to tell.

The Jamie & Roy bar scene enraged me. It was a kind of toxic masculinity that didn't exist between them during the whole series until that moment. They'd always both respected Keeley's agency. Now they're two boys fighting over her, using their sex exploits as a yardstick? Gross. I felt it was out of character for both of them. And I felt it was only done so we could have the scene where Keeley "chooses" herself, which I found forced and a cheap way out.

So what do I think of Roy & Keeley? I think we haven't seen the last of them. This was a "season" finale, and no definitive answer has been given about the future. All the actors are contracted for a S4 so they're all signed on if it happens. And if "Ted" isn't back and Roy was the lead? Maybe they created this breakup for this season to move the good Roy and Keeley content for a S4. Maybe that's wishful thinking though. Not much has been said and there's a writer's strike so that complicates things.

I wish I had an answer. As a viewer I am just really angry at being given no real explanation on the break-up or their feelings on it, plus the lack of interaction between Roy & Keeley was so frustrating. They wouldn't let them speak! We're all still in the dark and honestly I am still unhappy with their individual story arcs this season - I don't think there was much growth. It was all just depressing.

It breaks my heart. I know Roy seemed to be on the right path but he still didn't look happy and all I really wanted for Roy at the end of the show was for him to be happy. He's had so much anger and sadness in his life. And he and Keeley made each other happy. I don't get hooked on much tv anymore and I was really hooked on Ted Lasso and this couple in particular, so, yes, I'm heartbroken. There may have been behind the scenes factors that impacted the show's arc as well, but I'm not privy to that. We just don't know.

I'm not a young fan. I'm married with teen children. I've consumed a lot of media and these two really spoke to me so I feel really cheated right now. I think we all should feel that way. So I empathize with you. ❤️

[thelioncourts]

Hii, I'm not sure if you answer anons but I've just found your blog as I was looking for iwtv blogs :) I've not read the books and only just watched first four episodes of season 1 but really love watching Lestat and Louis together. I have read they're endgame (I hope they are as so far as I do love seeing them together). I just wondered (if you've read the books and apologies for my book innocence) 😂🤦‍♀️ but is S1 a make the most of it seeing the guys together as in future seasons they'll mostly be separated and with others as I assume the books show? And I hope both actors will hopefully come back in future seasons to see the characters as endgame? 🤔🤞

hi there! sorry for the late reply, I have not been online as much lately. I will preface this that I have 1) watched all of season 1 of iwtv an embarrassing amount of times (in the 15+ times range) and 2) have read all 13 books and 3) keep up, pretty religiously, with what the showrunners and cast are saying about the characters and plot and whatnot.

so -- and of course this is my speculation based on all the above -- I think louis and lestat will be separated in the show to a point, but i don't think it's going to be for very long. i think we will see them reunite and i think they will, for the most part, stay united. here's why i'm assuming this:

general book stuff: so as you haven't read the books, here's a general gist re: louis and lestat. lestat becomes the "main character" of the vampire chronicles with louis appearing less and less and less in the series, up until (honestly) the last handful of books where he and lestat seem to connect in a way they just. hadn't in the past, and they become each other's everything and become such an established endgame. we can get into the logistics of why (if anyone ever wants to ramble about louis-is-anne-and-anne-had-issues-with-herself, just hit me up), but yeah. that's what happens.

show: the show has -- as I'm sure you've seen -- deviated from the books in many ways. i, personally, love every change. the heart of the vampire chronicles is so there, so vivid, and the characters' personalities are still so very them. but the plot has changed in many ways, leaving even book fans up in the air as to what might be happening or what will happen.

as the show has already given us more of a play-by-play of louis and lestat's early romance (something never given to us in the books as we only get louis' anger at lestat), it is setting us, as an audience, up for this: no matter where the show goes, louis and lestat as a couple are going to be incredibly important to the plot because you don't base an entire introductory season around a relationship without making it relevant to the remainder of the show.

there's also the way television works vs. books. everyone can say whatever they want, but the vampire chronicles -- as they are written -- would not do well on television because television audiences get attached to love stories where the vampire chronicles have too many relationships-not-relationships going on. sure, dedicated rice fans would watch an exact adaptation, but that's not how you keep shows on television; you need more people.

audiences are clearly infatuated with sam and jacob's portrayal of lestat and louis' relationship. the ship is huge, the chemistry between the actors is huge, and iwtv, if smart (and i think they are), will capitalize on that. people will watch all of season 4 (whatever season 4 may be) just to watch louis checking to see if lestat is okay after akasha or just to watch lestat cradle louis' face in an intense planning situation, etc.

i very much see sam and jacob being attached to this project as long as the project lasts and i very much see lestat and louis being together and together and together much more in this than in the books. their love story will be the ultimate selling point.