#this is all in good fun I'm not actually like mad if ppl disagree with me promise

[seawitchkaraoke]

Reblog for bigger sample size I guess, I have a strong opinion on this, I wanna see how many of y'all are wrong

[dairy-farmer]

Sorry if you've already touched on this, but what are your thoughts about the discourse/discussion about Tim in the comics and Tim from the lens of A03/fan fiction?

For example, I hear a lot from old comic fans about how the series with Tim dating Bernard was doomed to fail bc 'the writer wrote him like her fanfiction version of Tim and not the real character'. There was a lot of discourse with canonical announcing Tim as queer, and that's kinda all these older comic book fans seem to keep coming back to. Idk, there just kinda seems to be an underlying feeling of misogyny towards the female writers and anti lgtbq vibes that it's hard to hear like a real arguement against the series.

I guess as a long time a03/Fandom person, I'm so used to just creating another little reality for the things I disagree or want to explore with a character, that it's strange to see people so upset that Canon doesn't flow the way the want.

it's no problem!! and i haven't really touched on the newer comics all that much mostly because i also don't particularly like them, not for any specific reason-they're decent enough but i don't really think they're 'tim'-but i do know what you're talking about. on twitter and tumblr i see a lot of different takes regarding tim and how he's written in this newer robin series.

for starters: i get what you're talking about where criticism of the comics might partly because of anti-lgbt attitude. especially since tim getting confirmed to be bisexual made A LOT of people mad (including ppl who arent homophobic but are mad that it wasn't THEIR favorite robin who got confirmed queer like dick, jason, or damian etc). comic bros and even casual comic fans who had never even heard of tim or even gave a shit about him were now furious. and while there might be ppl with genuine critiques- some of hatred of the way tim is written in the newer comics you really have to take it with a grain of salt because it very well could be comic bros hating because "robin isn't gay".

same with the writer, meghan fitzmartin. in general, women DO have an uphill battle when it comes to working in comics because it is very male dominated. and it's no secret that a lot of comic fans are opposed to women writing in comics. so misogyny, and even jealousy also plays a role with how much criticism is ACTUALLY warranted. but that doesn't mean a woman in comics isn't allowed to be criticized if they do a bad job or do a botched execution when their job is supposed to be making good, enjoyable, stories that do justice to the characters. i do think meghan may have some decentish ideas but whether she genuinely has the writing chops to deliver on those big ideas is well...iffy. but then again i genuinely don't keep tabs on comic writers or they're projects so maybe that will change.

when it comes to the critique of tim being written like a "fanfiction" version and not a "real" version of him i do see what they mean.

when I think of fanon tim I think of all the mischaracterizations that have been popularized. a coffee obsessed gremlin that doesn't sleep who is deeply insecure and agonizes over his place in the family, thinking he doesn't belong. people LIKE that tim is portrayed like that (in fanfiction) otherwise that characterization wouldn't be so pervasive in fics (there's also the possibility that a lot of ff writers DON'T know any better because many don't read comics but they do read fics and so they base their portrayals solely off what they read in fics resulting in this racoon eyed, coffee loving character who they believe to be an actual portrayal when it's really just someone's idea/exaggerated interpretation of tim).

i really don't see a lot of that in meghan's writing, the issues with tim's writing with her are different. if anything WFA is the one that really have the 'written as a ff character' vibe. but that series is also SUPPOSED to be deeply unserious as a fun slice of life universe where nothing goes wrong for anyone ever as a soothing balm for the oftentimes depressing stories in batman comics.

but in meghan's writing I also don't see a lot of what i consider to be core tim values. is she the best writer for tim? no i don't really think so. but there is a certain degree of understanding for his character. I see the comics and I can recognize that it's tim. so it's not offensively OC.

a lot of complaints seem to stem from his relationship with bernard being too much of a focus. people say how tim does too much thinking about him when...he was a lot worse in the 90s with steph. I remember getting so irritated when entire comics of robin would be narrated by steph or about her, i'd be like 'I want to read about ROBIN and his adventures, not steph, why is she even relevant?'. but tim's relationships to other people are a core part about him so you just have to take it.

the part that i think is justified in critique is in talking about whether her writing of bernard dowd is good. that is a much easier thing to answer. and its that its not good writing. in fact it's a pretty bad, inaccurate portrayal of him given how he was written when we first knew him. he's sort of been...sanded down? kind of remade into some new, almost unrecognizable character that fits into what she believes would be a nice, wholesome, gay partner for tim. which is an issue for me because we have seen and know what tim is like in relationships. tim had tension with, disagreed with, got annoyed with, fought and argued with his other partners like stephanie and ariana. but he also enjoyed himself and was happy with them. there was a balance there of good and bad because tim's unique situation of being robin made it so there had to be good and bad. with bernard it's all very passive and easy. they don't argue, they don't really fight, or have any struggles in their relationship when trying determine compatibility. avoiding tension in the relationship when tim has a track record of it makes it almost seem like she's afraid of the risk of portraying a gay relationship in anything less than a golden light. which is not good writing. BUT it is also very NEW. so maybe that will change (but there's a similar problem with jon kent and his bf so idk)? i personally believe kon would've been a more ideal partner with their shared history, chemistry, tension, the fact that fans have wanted it for decades, and the fact that it would've been such a good addition to the arc of self acceptance for kon's character. and many of the issues that tim being with bernard wouldn't be a thing because tim and kon famously don't see eye to eye 100 percent of the time and so their relationship would struggle and grow as they go from friends to romantic partners.

ultimately in my opinion to write a truly good tim drake you need to be able to accurately portray the thing that made him such a great robin: his heart of gold. tim cares about doing the right thing SO much. he cares about helping people. he's not some cold, unfeeling calculated computer who uses people as pawns and abandons his morals at the slightest inconvenience or seduction to the 'dark side'. and he's not some coffee drinking hacker man that is 20 steps ahead and smug about it.

tim worries about people, he's upset at injustice, feels guilt at not being able to save people, is judgy, sometimes a brat, sarcastic, gets angry at people for throwing their lives away, gets very invested in things that catch his interest, is too curious for his own good, nosy. he lies through his teeth and then bats his eyes in sweet as pie innocence. will think VERY rude thoughts about people but will bite his tongue because he's a nice boy👼 but sometimes things slip out. he is somehow simultaneously able to be the 🥺 and 😈 emoji at the same time. his odds of making bad decisions increase by 100 fold if in the company of other stupid teenagers.

now i write tim as a very exaggerated version of that core self. that's what a lot of ff authors do. they choose a handful of traits they like best about him and spin entire fics about it. i don't think writing tim as a fanfiction version of himself is a bad thing because some fanfic is genuinely better than the source material and that comes from being very good at understanding the character. the tim of today can't be written the same way he was in his golden age, the 90s, because a lot of his struggles and hurdles that he dealt with in those comics are over. they're done. tim can't be 30 years old and still wondering if he's doing a shit job as robin. tim IS a good robin and he should be able to acknowledge that (funnily enough one of his clear acknowledgements of that is often wiped away by fics- that being the titans tower scene where jason asks if tim thinks he's the better robin and tim, without hesitation, says yes) a lot of older fans are clinging to problems that tim has already resolved. he's not thirteen and insecure about his abilities. he's not on his first relationship with someone (but he is in his first relationship with a boy). he's not still learning how to navigate his relationship with batman and the rest of the family or struggling to come to terms with his civilian and caped life. do some of those things still trouble him on occasion? yes but they're not the main focus anymore.

tim has to have new problems, new challenges, new growth.

i had some hope for new tim comics.

would i like to have seen more tim centric material or at least good stories. and often times in the new tim comics tim was exactly the same at the end of the issue as he was at the beginning. tim struggling with his identity is something that made an appearance in 90s comics a lot but I think for the newer ones that it would've been better received/more interesting if it were...written better?

idk. i don't know a single comic fan that loved every detail of their fav's comics. was it the best run? no. but it was okay enough i guess. it was lukewarm, not standing ovation worthy but also nobody should be throwing tomatoes at the performers either, it just earned a polite clap of acknowledgement which i don't think is a very bad thing but still i hope we get something better!

[onwriting-hrarby]

i didn’t finish my thought <\3 but yes I agree to an extent! for me even though I really enjoy groups like itzy and aespa there are aspects that kinda push me away from enjoying them fully! i think itzy are some of the most talented performers but their music quality has sorta stagnated since wannabe which is tragic. aespa on the other hand are wonderfully talented but at they have more cbs the messier their performances become. i think they’ll grow more so I still enjoy them hehe!

like I was saying I really enjoy I’ve and new jeans currently. While I liked ives debut song what really sold me was love dive (which I recommend if you’re interested 👀) they’re a really solid group and their music is of my taste! the new jeans girls are so fun to watch on stage, they’re kinda going in the opposite way of flashy rn very reminiscent of early sm girl groups where they let the girls shine. i think they’re really breaking away from the intense choreo where everything has to be perfect to look right. they have a lot of charisma to them!

g-idle as red velvets follow ups 👀 my dear we may have to disagree for once! I think my contender for that would be the stay-c girls or ive. It could be that GIDLE is more distinct for me that I can’t see them in the position of taking on a mantle when they’ve already created one themselves plus they feel more intense than rv (so jealous of the people who can go to their concerts rn 😭💔)

Oh nonono don't get me wrong! GIDLE is a fategory on their own, but I feel that as talent and quality of their music, they are on par with Red Velvet! But they are so distinct, yet there are some things that bring a lot of Red Velvet to me and that is that their comebacks have never ONCE been the same! Every Gidle comeback is distinctively different, so that's why I am remembered of RV, who almost never repeat concepts.

About BTS, I must say I caught up during DNA, actually! And I do agree on your take about Stay C as RV, I thought the same too! But for now their concepts kinda feel on the same paths, but vocally and harmonization? COMPLETELY. And New Jeans?? I love this new group, but it's too soon to say so, I'll need to wait for another comeback. But these 4 songs are a vibe, and problematics aside, all of them are incredibly talented. While, I have to say, I couldn't get into IVE 😭😭 I think it' me having quite a prejudice with gg that come from shows or debuted with other groups (minus Twice).

What you say about Itzy and Aespa, I can just agree. At first I was very struck by Itzy, but for me JYP doesn't stick to good concepts... Like they have so many comebacks and I feel like all JYP gg have the *factor* but musically, they lack. Whereas Aespa does have all the potential (the girls and the concept, it's SM, which ppl might hate, but for me SM pulls the most interesting concepts) to do SO MUCH MORE but they are keeping them in this closed like music? I feel like, just like ITZY, their concept will die off. Unless they pull a Twice and change it mid-career.

(Agree with Twice and Blackpink. Specially Blackpink, I was a huge fan at the beginningz but I'm just so mad with the management and how they are *influencers* before musicians. Twice I loved them forever but since I grew up I was really thankful that their concept matured along with them, too, and I think it' a shame they don't do more solo works, although at the same time, I don't think all of them could pull a solo because each has their characteristics so strong it merges so well within the group.)

[redxblueihateloveyou]

it's not just kids calling adam/tadashi abusive, i've seen adults say the same thing, even fans of adam, that it's abusive and rapey, i'm not sure how to feel because i disagree but their posts sound very authoritive :/

Meanwhile Utsumi is out there like gushing about these two 24/7 bc they’re her faves and says stuff like “originally Tadashi was supposed to say “Woof” after “You’re gonna be my dog for the rest of their lives”, but it didn’t make to the final cut, I thought about his face expression a lot in that moment, but the only thing I was absolutely sure of is how utterly happy he was about what Adam said.” and explains for absolute morons that what Adam said about framing Tadashi was just a bullshit to test him lmao

I once again do not know why people don’t get that this ships thing is that they’re literally what another needs and despite the fact that they both have their own problems, they’re each other’s way out. Because Adam wants Tadashi to learn to stand up for himself, while Tadashi wants Adam to learn that love should bring happiness, not pain. If you don’t want complicated characters, once again, watch smth with a rating 5+ instead. Complicated and problematic characters are not always villains and some adult relationships are definitely not an abuse, if they’re canonically into power play. 

Also I don’t know how a person who so carelessly throws words like “rapey” can be considered “sounding authoritive”, but I highly recommend to try forming your own point of view, based on facts/observations and your own experience. Also in books for example there's always easier to get characters motives, bc they give you to say the whole picture, so depends on how many you’ve read you can learn to detect it without it “being explained to you” pretty easy. If you don’t have such skill or don’t want to develop it, you can wait for the creator’s commentary, you can usually get it to many animes/mangas these days, they will tell you what they meant by some scenes and about their thought process, while creating it, who, why and where. Of course not every creator has that much love and attention to their characters and story, there are some where the creators also know nothing about their character, besides what was shown, but Utsumi is not one of those, so you can always be ready, that if she picked a fave, she thought everything through from the very beginning.

Also this fandom (and pls normal SK8 fans, do not take offense in this, I mean I’m technically also in this fandom, although not really since I had to create just a bubble and don’t go anywhere else, since it’s that bad) is like 90% absolute the most painfully idiotic ppl I’ve ever seen, who can’t even read between the lines and say the dumbest stuff I’ve ever heard, that is so embarrasssing, that they make you embarrassed about even being part of this, and 50% of them are too young to even get stuff, that wasn’t meant for them to get, so just, for real, I’m just suggesting the same thing I did, for your own health, pick ppl for your tl, whose brains are intact and do not even go “out there”, like, you’re only gonna get mad. I mean, if ppl who aren’t even in the fandom get mad about stuff they write, you’re gonna be mad x2 and sadly you can’t do anything about this amount of stupidity, rarely stuff like this do happen to some fandoms. Yes, you can’t enjoy this one, sadly. I tried, but I just felt, like I’m getting more and more mad, until I just sat down and cleaned everything on my tl and was like “that’s it, I’m not in the sk8 fandom, I’m in my own fandom it’s called “his dog by day, his snake by night” lmao

And yes, it did in fact happen after I found out that the girl behind that “concerning adam” absolutely moronically formulated shit that was part of the zine was 23 years old. I think my eyes popped out like in a cartoon, bc everyone who was involved in this drama, wrote stuff like “can i make fun of them or are they 14″, thinking they’re just well, you know, young, but then were shocked too xD. I just wish this person/ppl just wrote “we excluded Adam bc we’re too dumb to get his character we hate him”, at least I’d respect you for your honesty in this case. But no, you had to dig your own grave and become the new official representative of “SK8 fandom is the dumbest”. Congrats really.

I do not know, if ppl lie about their age or not when it comes to those. If not and they’re really adults who think so, it’s fascinating really. Fascinating how this fandom got all the idiots in once. I mean, being a stupid fandom of teens is one thing, being a stupid fandom in general is just sad.

Am I sad that so little ppl got the actual plot and the message creators tried to send? Yes, absolutely. Not the first time tho it happens, with Utsumi’s faves especially, but also in general these days. It is very sad, I agree, but also, I just really started to feel bad, bc I saw some comments and felt like that meme guy, you know: “what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.” lol

So just find someone who posts the good stuff and doesn’t get involved, listen to VAs, read creator’s interviews and live happily ever after, bc they adore both Adam and Tadaai. They literally told in the last interview what I was telling under my YT vid. This is just also hilarious to me, bc to be honest Tadaai situation wasn’t even that hard to analyse in the first place, even without the creators commentaries. Like we’re not on a Cannes Film Festival here.

And once again you can like or dislike Adam, it’s your choice, ppl have different tastes, but writing the most utterly idiotic things about his character that make no sense whatsoever, considering the canon story, is just plain moronic. Just say that you don’t like him, and pls, don’t embarrass yourself.

[transrightsjimin]

covid rants as per usual

had 4 teams meetings today nd slept too few nd i did alright at work but im rly overwhelmed frm the social interaction nd a colleague suggested we go out to somewhere outside w colleagues, to like a picnic or smth bc most of us rarely saw each other irl nd the rest was super enthused nd i just sat there like :S

nd afterwards i tried to finally, finally, like fcking 2 years too late but finally setting up a word document to go drop all these articles and useful websites nd posts in, to debunk eugenics sht and provide helpful websites, resources, accounts etc for those who do want to actually end covid and be able to go to safer places or get vaccines tht might otherwise be thrown away etc.

long sentence but urgh anyway i searched for omikron to check if it's spelled w a K in dutch and the search results were ONLY articles in major news website articles in dutch that celebrate how omicron is 'milder' and defenses of stuff opening up even while infection rates r terribly high and rising and i just felt sick to my stomach already from an NOS article tht claimed we should go for a 'controlled spread' approach for 'natural immunity' as if that wasnt already explicitly stated to be the policy since 2020, and also this child pedetrician / dutch CDC (OMT) member Patricia Bruijning who shared in a dutch talk show she wouldn't vaccinate her kids if she had them etc.

just god i tried to keep working on the word file but the first good article i wanted ti add is inaccessible outside the US nd i got too tired sifting(?) thriugh bookmarks on twt bd just only have the titles for what i wanted to have in the word doc i wanted to base my carrd on. im just mad i started this so late and everything stresses me out nd nothing can relax or distract me

maybe i shiuld rly draw out my feelings but idt i should rn bc i just get even more fristrrated thinking about it urghghg

im just tired of this eugenics bs and so scared of getting infected and for losing loved ones to the virus and every day i dont finish this carrd is another day a person didnt read or share it nd risks their health nd life more. and im just so so fking sick of the gaslighting, being told by others both on individual nd societal level tht i'm exaggerating nd ir's not that bad and that i'm too extremist and 'we don't know if masks work' and i need to consider other people's perspective as if that isn't shoved down our throats by the state nd literally the majority, and that it's not an issue if people die abd that theres no risk for kids and that we're safe and covid is over or over soon and and go along w the givt and media and crowd bc 'polderen' and 'acting normal' nd just the cultural, educatiobal, medical field etc that dont give a fck about face masks nd any other measures bc ppl dont knpw covid spreads via aerosoles nd otherwise dont care

also just remembered my manager / boss in a meeting complained a lot abt how a student in some survey filled in they think the non-EER student tuition fee (abt €11K / year i think) is too high nd didn't make sense w the 'inclusion and diversity' message of the uni. which yeah they're absolutely right abt lol

nd he was furious nd was concerned that this one student would harm the reputation of the school and disagreed strongly bc tuition fees for those groups might get even larger bc the university (supposedly) has too few funds nd needs more bc the student loan system will be stopped etc and him nd colleagues were poking fun at our faculty head(? i think) who complained 'this is a school but this sounds like a business!' (not in the call) nd manager nd colleagues were like 'of course it's a business' nd manager/boss used a weird analogy for why the complaint made no sense nd he said this is why they need to tackle the issue w the marketing team nd use data to determine more where to gather international students from bc those graduates result in larger funds for universities. just. christ. like i somewhat enjoy my job but the school is so corporate i dont know what to say nd again just that whole. polderen sht which basically just means 'go along w the status quo or shut up'

[janiedean]

I feel bad for all the nice J*nsa shippers who like their ship for whatever reasons (tropes, pretty art, aesthetic appeal, whatever) and know it's not canon but get associated with the misogynistic Dany hating crowd who act like Jon being attracted to Ygritte is J*nsa foreshadowing because red hair (I guess Jon should fuck Edmure Tully too? Omg give me Dark!Jon getting revenge on Catelyn by seducing her brother!) Tell me something. I'm new to the fandom but was J*nsa popular before the show? And I've heard something about the OG J*nsa shippers being alienated by the new shippers who insisted it had to be canon and acted like the series is called, "A song of J*nsa #danysux." I don't find that hard to believe because I know people who are now ashamed of calling themselves J*nsa shippers. Like, at this point, it's not only rival shippers who hate it. Even Gendrya/Braime/Jon stans/etc have started disliking that ship. You know your fandom is a problem when people who have nothing to do with Jnsa have a problem with it.

me: reads this ask

me: iwastheregandalf.gif which I can't find now but

okay anon buckle up because I am sadly well-equipped to answer this ask but before I do lemme tell you dark jon seducing edmure to take revenge on cat is LITERALLY THE BEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD but *clears throat* ALL RIGHT THEN.

disclaimer: as anon says I have no issue with like the shippers mentioned by anon in the beginning and ngl I agree, I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO FUCKING STAKES in the j*nsa vs j*nerys war and the only het jon ship I gaf about is jon/ygritte and we all know where that ended up I just... have been here since 2011/adwd was over and all the fic around was just for the books under secret lj communities and asoiaf qualified for yuletide and I have... seen... things.... and I actually have like uh had... beef... with some people in there and I know things bc ppl who hated those others told me stuff so anyway *sigh* buckle up anon I'mma tell you the story of jon shipwars through the years

in order, the old gods help me here, under the cut bc this is long as fuck

when I got into fandom also given what numbers were on ao3 one ship was popular and it was sansan. no like sansan was lit. the only asoiaf ship on ao3 with more than 200 fics. jb had twenty when i checked first. jc had like around 100-ish because of the show but sansan dwarfed anything. I posted the first jon/ygritte fic on the ao3 tag and the fourth throbb fic and like the others were all reposts from lj kinkmemes. nothing was popular before the show except for sansan when it comes to huge numbers bc grrm doesn't like fic and it was all hush hush until the show made it impossible to control and that ship was the one with a huge enough fanbase it actually had numbers, so like... j*nsa wasn't popular in the way nothing else was popular until it got screentime on the show

now, that stated, j*nsa had a... fair amount of fic for a rareship which was mostly book-based and from og shippers that were there from before the show and liked it for what it was but literally none of them thought it was gonna be canon, like it wasn't huge or anything but it had a small but dedicated fanbase who did their own thing and thought it was fun/liked the idea but that was it

that fandom had their own niche of hcs that they cultivated and shit except that like... at the end of S5/beginning of S6 there was a surge in shipping for... well obvious reasons bc it was obv sansa was getting to the wall and that would have been all nice and good but a) it was the time puritanical shipping was starting to take root and the 'shipping sansa with sandor or tyrion is hella problematic' rhetoric had started to circle coming from sans*ery shippers mostly but I'mma not open that fucking can of worms here, b) while the ending of S5 had more of a theon/sansa spike, the j*nsa stuff started getting big

now here we have to mention my villain origin story ie: j*nsa fandom had this one stan whose name I won't make because honestly it's been years and if she's still around I don't want her to remember I exist who was a bnf, wrote for... the website that created the whole larry/carol thing etc who was really fixed on this thing that j*nsa was actually canon and started writing extremely popular meta about it. now you're gonna ask how do you know, I know because this person once wrote a meta named 'why robb stark is a dick' and I told her that it was really fucking bad meta and she took it so badly she kept on trash talking me on her blog/her podcast (I was apparently the insane robb stark fangirl l m a o good lord) and like that was when some sane ppl who argued with her informed me in pvt that she was basically harping on the CANON thing when they'd have been okay with like... it being crackshipping and that she was basically cultivating a hoarde of followers who were harping on them/the ogs and basically ostracizing them;

I would like to add that this person - before her tumblr got 'accidentally deleted' and remade it therefore deleted most receipts for, er, her so-called meta which included stuff like ned and cat raised sansa as a sexual object and only wanted to sell her like cattle - had at some point started a round robin fic thing where... some of the characters mocked openly said stuff that some of the og fans had said specifically targeting them and people in that side basically went harassing anyone who didn't agree with that specific notion

now never mind that this person basically coined an entire term to describe ppl who liked white guys and excused all their wrongdoings out of my conversation re robb basically lying about everything I said as if I didn't have the receipts and tried to sell shirts with it and it didn't work and like then she got kicked out of her own website because she was telling her commenters disagreeing pretty shitty insults (considering I was called psychotic for disagreeing with her that time I don't doubt it) I think at some point she stepped back from fandom bc idk wtf she's up to these days and I don't want to, but basically at that point the dam was broken and there was a bunch of puritanical shippers harping on anyone who didn't agree with j*nsa is canon endgame stuff

this also includes an incident when those ppl were like... passing themselves as throbb shippers and ended up trying to tell t*hramsay shippers off the theon tag based on moral reasons and I ended up arguing with all of them (and they were all from that crowd) which in turn landed me in contact with other og j*nsa shippers who were like detached from that fandom bc those same people harassed them away as well ssooooo fun

anyway when S6 happened everyone was high on it and whatnot but I wasn't gonna begrudge them that I mean... you shipped it for years, canon is delivering you, good for you, but then j*nerys happened

god j*nerys happened

aaand basically...... I mean personally I was there like are y'all seriously arguing about the best incest jon ship out there but like basically the j*nsa endgame side was like AH JON IS PLAYING DANY SEE IF IT DOESN'T HAPPEN, the j*nerys obv got defensive af and both sides were sort of alternatively shitting on jon/ygritte anyway and depicting any other romantic rship jon could have as abusive™ and during S8 it just got worse and like I tried to stay out of it but basically from what I'm seeing now idk how the j*neryses are doing but on the j*nsa one it's ah jon's gonna play dany anyway and she's going to go insane like in the show so SHOW TRUTHING EVERY OTHER WAY and like again denying that sandor exists or that tyrion exists and like I barely touch my corner (sansan) but I ended up arguing with j*nsa/th*nsa people on twitter who were antis and is2g it was white-hair inducing and I know for sure the sansa/tyrion shippers were harassed to hell and back throughout so FUN

and even if the show didn't go there now since everyone there banked on the jnsa endgame thing and admitting you're wrong is like... not a thing, they still haven't let go of it and attach to that ship any shred of evidence which honestly is grasping at straws half of the time (like... the sansa/alysanne parallels like guys please no) and which is why every other ship is starting to get fed up, attaching canon proof of stuff from other ships onto theirs see that batb argument and jb is platonic but jonsa is not nvm taking all the sansan stuff and throwing it on j*nsa but then denying that sansan has canon evidence (like guys I had to read sansa touching his shoulder when saying gregor wasn't a true knight wasn't meaningful and we were seeing things please) and blah blah blah

this also goes hand in hand with the fixation on like... villanizing dany at all costs and like is2g I have zero investment in dany or her storyline I don't even remember it and I don't particularly care abt her either way and sure af I'm not for j*nerys endgame but like.... some stuff I read is completely excessive esp when fixing on how she's a completely mad tyrant who's gonna have to be put down and like... guys no

(also there's some srs stannis hate in that corner which I honestly don't get why they even care abt stannis but I had to read stuff like ppl don't recognize that dany and stannis are the real villains in this saga and like........ idek)

I think most of the og shippers are gone or don't ship it openly bc they don't want to be attached to the drama but like I also think they're pissing off everyone else bc like... I mean a bunch of them also were down with sansa being paired with other ppl as long as it meant a good ending for her except those ppl were... like everyone but the ppl she has actual contact with in canon which meant that at some point sansa/gendry was a thing and like.... you can imagine why arya/gendry shippers & arya stans were fed up, and there's also this tendency to behave like sansa is the center of the entire saga which like these books is named a song of jon snow basically can we pls make peace with it and personally I've had it with both j*nsa and j*nerys people since they started with that dumbass JON/YGRITTE WAS AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP rhetoric but I'm also fed up with the total ignoring that sandor exists/depicting us as delusional and honestly I also was by proxy fed up from the harassing of the sansa/tyrion shippers soooooooooooo

there were also instances of 'well theon is an acceptable choice other than jon bc he can't threaten her' which... i mean we all know what that meant and I'm not even commenting it bc it's one AM and I have no force to but I don't have to explain why it's not a progressive take now do I

there were also metas about how cousin incest being legal in half of the world means that jondany is a worse incest and j*nsa doesn't count as such and I was basically there like guys please just fucking own up to it but honestly I chose to forgot where I read that and I couldn't find the link if I tried

tldr: no one wants to admit that it's not gonna be endgame which considering the amount of fic they have on ao3 is imvho useless bc they have more content than like.. anything I ship that's not jb or that's actually like canon *cries in joncon/rhaegar but I mean renly/loras is canon and has less fic than them* so idk what's the problem with enjoying that instead of insisting it's gonna be canon when not even the show validated it while show truthing anyway when the only show truthing that can be truthed is the small council made of minorities and possibly jon eventually fucking off with the wildlings but not like that but like most people who thought it wasn't gonna be endgame had left/were made to leave by the time S7 rolled by and at this point since wow isn't out yet everyone is fandom-grasping at straws to find stuff to discourse on and we're here beating dead horses *shrug*

so that's... how it is but I would again like to point out that I don't judge ppl on their shipping, I don't particularly care about this entire feud bc I only ship jon with ppl he's not related to in whichever way and I try to stay out of this mess bc I don't really care to argue with ppl who have already decided to bend canon to whatever they want and will have to realize that it's not what grrm wrote at some point but like I have a very good memory and the above rant is as objective as possible also bc again I don't literally have a stake in that race I just think romantic/endgame j*nsa is not a thing and that ppl should stay in their lane and not harping on other ppl who ship whatever in general but especially when their ship is the most popular thing in fandom in the first place /two cents

[notesofarichlycolorednight]

Hi,pal! I'm loving "It's the perfect story"! However, the subject I'm talking about doesn't directly to the fic. By what I know, people don't hate Silena because she was the spy,it's more like they think her being seduced/manipulated into doing it is detracting to her character. Many posts say that's very insulting to teen girls, or her cause should be something like "her cabin was being disrespected"(out of character IMO, but I'll talk about it later)...

Continuation. Or “the demigods were being mistreated by the gods”(not a bad one,but Silena didn’t really feel the worst of the gods IMO. Not like Luke, Chris or Tori in the fic). People are entitled to their opinions, but I disagree. About the “disrespected cabin stuff”,Silena is defensive in a blunt, straightforward way when it happens. Examples: how she wanted to fight the Huntresses when they said love was worthless;or when people were surprised by her magic knowledge,and she looked offended.

Cont. Besides, those behaviors show that Silena can be quite passionate and proud, what probably made her vulnerable to manipulation(her romantic nature didn’t help). Besides, Silena herself thought she was saving lives. I believe Luke’s words would sound truer to her if she cared about him than from a dispassionate perspective. Besides, if Luke managed to lure Percy to near death with a friendly smile and soda,despite Percy’s instincts saying no,I believe he could do it to Silena…

Cont. By what I read, your only issue was the age. However, I think that was something like “death of the author” in canon,as she didn’t get one. In fact, I rather like the idea of Silena being an older camper,including than Charles(if 18 years old girls date boys in their 20’s…),both in canon and in your fic. In your fic,it could make her Tori ’ s peer. In canon,it’d fit the whole “role model” stuff we had going on HoO.

what’s up dude! thanks, i’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it!

that’s how i interpreted it when i read the books (or how i remember interpreting it, at least, i haven’t read the series in a while) like, being the spy meant she was a traitor, which is also a comment abt her character (i.e., may she’s not the greatest person–for the lack of a better word–bc she was a traitor). when clarisses declares she’s a hero, i assumed it was supposed to be juxtaposed to her being a traitor. which is a roundabout way to say that the ultimate end is the same, whereas the perspective is different? but i can see where others are coming from–that the campers would be more mad bc of the fact that she was easily manipulated by luke, rather than her being the spy

i guess i can see where ppl are coming from regarding it being an insult to teen girls (i’d really like to see those posts tho, bc i actually haven’t seen anyone talk abt that–i somehow manage to avoid discourse like we’re two opposing magnets, my d-list x-men power), bc it plays off the stereotype that teen girls are so boy crazy, they’re easily manipulated by any good-looking guy that smiles in their direction. it doesn’t help that she’s a child of aphrodite. and what i mean by that is, i think, ppl often water down what aphrodite is the goddess of. when ppl say, “she’s the goddess of love and beauty” ppl often think she’s the goddess of, “being vain and romantic/sexual love” (not true btw, fite me, i will gladly jump into that discourse)

but anyway, back to my main point, i can see how it may play off a teen girl stereotype (rick is good at doing that sometimes, which isn’t entirely his fault, bc like i said abt toxic masculinity, it’s so ingrained in our society, it’s hard to unlearn and we often fall into those stereotypes if we’re not fully aware of them and consciously thinking about them), but i also don’t entirely agree with that argument, either

now i could be wrong, esp since i haven’t read any of this discourse, so i haven’t read ppl’s reasoning or arguments, but it sounds very surface-level White Feminism™ and what i mean by that is that there are more grey areas to this argument, okay, so put away your pitchforks and put out your torches and, i mean, also that this argument is coming from ppl who want to seem like they’re woke, but then turn around and continue to do or say things that are insidiously bigoted

like i said, i can see how it plays into a stereotype, but if we’re going by rick’s canon (which we totally don’t have to, but for this argument’s sake we are) she’s young and impressionable, luke is handsome and charming–if another young person were in her position, we’d probably see the same thing. young ppl are easy to manipulate, they just are. they’re still learning abt the world, and how it works, and that maybe not everyone has good intentions. not to mention they’re still trying to find themselves, and they look to peers, mentors, and ppl who are respected (for whatever reason) for cues to how they should act and think. it’s like trying on clothes or taste-testing foods–they’re trying out opinions. if they don’t like the “taste” of an opinion, then they learn, grow, and change. some ppl instantly connect with an opinion (which could be bigoted or not) and not explore further, or could be sheltered and just not have the opportunity to experience anything else.

the opinion here: the gods are bad. the person she’s looking to for guidance: luke. plain and simple

and, as you say anon, percy even fell for luke’s charms (despite the warning signs!! and percy is most def Not Straight, so luke was also using that fact against percy as well, whether rick luke knew it or not). so, ya know, there ya go

now, i think rick chose a child of aphrodite, and a girl, bc he thought he was turning a trope on its head–you’d never expect (from the stereotype of what aphrodite stands for) silena to be a spy, to work for kronos of all ppl titans. do you see what i mean? i think he was going for an elle woods effect–except in the polar opposite direction. the ends is the same, where this girl who is often underestimated (like elle) turns out to do something no one expected of her (in silena’s case, being the spy, which takes a lot of guts, nerve, and smarts–the opposite of what ppl expect from aphrodite, based on a reductive stereotype)

and that’s where the real issue lies, not that she was a teen girl, but rather some of the decisions the author made under wrong assumptions

i agree that the alternatives aren’t as sincere or make as much sense. silena didn’t experience a whole lot of strife regarding her mom or the gods in general, so she’d have no reason to hate them as luke does–she’d have no reason to be the spy for luke if he were to simply use that argument to get her to kronos’s side. and maybe she would’ve joined kronos under “her cabin was being disrespected,” however, it was’t being disrespected by the gods themselves, right? not like the minor gods, not like nemesis or hecate. the disrespect comes more from the ppl around her–the ppl who assume the wrong things abt aphrodite when they hear the words “love” and “beauty.” so that alternative reason doesn’t hold a lot of water if you really think abt it

i also agree with you: that her passion and pride made her more easily manipulated, and also that luke’s words would mean more coming from a more passionate and personal perspective. luke fed her lines that played into her character (like how kronos fed luke lines that played into his hatred for the gods). if she felt passionate abt helping save ppl (and it’s coming from someone she likes, someone she looks up to), then she’d  be the spy for sure. if she had a crush on luke, more for him to use against her, right? that’s just how it goes sometimes, ya know? her crush are her rose-colored glasses, add that on top of “you’d be saving lives” and, well, luke’s got her wrapped around kronos’s finger

yeah, the age thing is a big sticking point for me, just bc based on the timeline of things, she’s several years younger than luke (which make his kiss, in my story, really gross). if beckendorf was going to college during tlo, he was probably at the least 18, and silena was probably around the same age. by this time, luke is 23, so that means that she’s abt 5 years younger? is five years a huge deal between older ppl (like mid- to late-twenties and beyond)? not at all. but with younger ppl (teens and early twenties), it’s a HUGE gap in age, and a HUGE deal.

but like you say, i think rick is hitting that point of “death of the author” (esp with more recent events…btw, jason is totally alive and well, and if you think or try to tell me differently, then you can meet me in a denny’s parking lot at 3am), so we can totes not follow canon and age both silena and beckendorf up. not to mention, there’s no specific age that ppl go to college (just in general most ppl starting college are from 17-20) so it’s completely fine for beckendorf to be going to college at 22, 23. and a 2 yr age difference (regarding beckendorf at 20, dating silena at 18) is totes better than a 5 yr difference for sure

i really like tori and silena being peers, and i if i had been more comfortable breaking canon (and knew what i know now, then), it would’ve been fun to write (but eeeyyy, it’s fun to think abt, so there may be headcanons in your future regarding this). finally, you’re right, i think it would make “silena as a role model” so much more powerful if she had been/was older in canon

thanks for sending these in! i had a lot of fun talking and thinking abt all the points you brought up/made, and i hope to continue this discussion, if you want!