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tinyozlion · 1 year

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TinyOZlion's GW Episode Guide for People Who Aren't Gundam People: Episode 01 - “The Shooting Star She Saw”

ᕕ( ᐛ)ᕗ OH boy oh BOY! It's time for PGW's first episode analysis! Let’s get started!

First let me pop in my 20 year old VHS tapes! ...Wait, I can’t. I don’t have a VCR player anymore, huh. Well, okay, let me just pop in these 20 year old DVDs! ...Nope, I can’t, computers stopped having disc drives in them. So... I guess. Uh.

Okay. Listen. Hear me out: I’ve bought this entire series on TWO redundant formats already. I’ve bought every manga. I’ve bought posters. I’ve bought model kits, I’ve bought figurines, I’ve bought toys.

I HAVE PAID MY DUES TO YOU, BANDAI! NO MORE!!

–80 minutes and 2 seeders later–

Wow, so this is the Blu-Ray edition huh? Let’s check it out, how different could it bbbvvhOLY SHIT

It’s so…… crisp.

This feels intimate. I shouldn’t be seeing the Gundams like this. They’re… they’re so… clean. I don’t recognize any of these people without the artifacting, the scan lines, the VHS blur.

I can see all the cel jitter??

No… NO! This is wrong. This is DISRESPECTFUL.

God never intended 90’s anime to be viewed at 1080p! It wasn’t DRAWN in 1080p!

And yet… the color quality… that seductive line definition …

Fine, The Crispness, you win. I’ll watch my anime in high definition, but I WILL NEVER FORGET MY ROOTS!!!!!!

...Actually fuck that, this is gorgeous and I’m never going back. If I ever have a few hundred bucks burning a hole in my pocket I guess I’ll just buy it AGAIN. To be responsible.

OKAY. Now we can start.

Note!: While this Episode Analysis is sort of 1/2 walkthrough for new viewers and 1/2 refresher + commentary for returning Wing fans, what it ISN'T intended to be is a full episode summary (for really good episode summaries, you can go here!) However, I am going to be going over this particular episode with a fine tooth comb, because episode 01 is by far the worst offender of the series. It’s got it all: bizarrely worded dialogue, mistranslations, delivering a bunch of new information to us by taking it out of the fridge and pouring it directly down the back of our shirts... Later in the series I will be grouping episodes together to cover more ground, but this one is a doozy, so it’s getting its own solo entry. Get ready: The pacing of this first episode is BONKERS. Things are going to move very fast, and a lot of new concepts are going to be dropped in quick succession.

*Ahem*

With high expectations human beings leave earth to begin a new life in Space Colonies. HOWEVER– (the way Optimus-Narrator says “However” lives in my brain as a permanent sound bite) the United Earth Sphere Alliance gains great military powers, and soon seizes control of one colony after another– in the name of “justice” and “peace”. The year is After Colony 195– Operation Meteor: in a move to counter the Alliance’s tyranny, rebel citizens of certain colonies scheme to bring new arsenals to the Earth, disguising them as shooting stars. HOWEVER– the Alliance headquarters catches on to this operation...

This intro is actually very succinct, clear, and to the point– IF you already know what to expect from this genre. (In my section on the history of Gundam in Japan and North America, I talked about how Wing's opening exposition was written based on the assumption that everybody watching would already be familiar with the basics of the Gundam franchise, so all that needed to be explained for Wing was what was departing from the original.)

--The main takeaway from the exposition is that A) There are Space Colonies, B) The earth is oppressing them via its military, using big robots to terrorize the small squishy people living in the space hamster wheels; and C) during something called “Operation Meteor”, an unspecified resistance group from the colonies sent secret weapons to earth.

Earth Big Military Bad, Space Colonies Oppressed, Space Colonies Send Five Mystery Weapons To Earth To Do Something About It. Okay we’re all caught up.

--Oh, what are the big robots? They haven’t been introduced yet– presumably because every single person watching this Gundam show already knows what Mobile Suits are, and knows that a Gundam is a big, special Mobile Suit, right? Unless you’re me, and nine years old, and watching it for the first time in America in the year 2000 AD. So just in case you're me from then and I'm me from now, let me clarify: the big robots are called “Mobile Suits” and this is a show about them. They aren’t Transformers, they need a person inside to make them go.

Let’s meet some of them, shall we?

--In this really very pretty opening sequence, we are shown the five mysterious capsules shooting down to the big blue marble that is earth. Fun science note: compare these to the Apollo command modules, and other vehicles designed for reentry!

--We cut to an Alliance surveillance satellite. The crew has picked up the Secret Colony Weapon Gashapons on their radar, but have no idea what they are. It’s probably just space debris, but just in case it’s Something Bad, they decide to let the closest available military person know about it, so someone with guns can deal with it.

--It is indeed Something Bad, and the military person they tell about it already KNOWS it’s bad, because he’s a main character and his name is Zechs Merquise. He’s the handsome fellow wearing a strange helmet/mask.

He is immediately dismissive of the Alliance satellite crew, because to him it’s obvious that space debris wouldn’t “ride the wave course to earth”. I have tried my best to identify what a “wave course” is, to no avail. I’m assuming that here it means a standard or safe path for reentry vehicles to take.

(EDIT: It turns out "wave riding" is a thing from Zeta Gundam! It is indeed a procedure mobile suits use to "surf" with a heat-shielded device for safe atmospheric reentry! Now we know!)

--As alluded to by the Narrator, the Alliance (or at least, this particular and very significant group of people currently associated with the Alliance) does in fact know something about Operation Meteor (or “M”). They being to close the gap on the one capsule out of five that they can catch up with.

–And here’s our first round of confusing dialogue! Goodie!:

Zechs: “One would do just dandy. A hired front line soldier mustn’t rush to battle.” Soft-Spoken Zechs Groupie Who Doesn’t Get A Name So I Will Call Him “Milo”: “That’s quite the bold statement, sir.” Zechs, chuckling: “I told you. I am a True Soldier.”

–Now, what the fuck does any of that entail. Allow me to explain:

Firstly: Zechs indicates that catching up with only one capsule is fine (or “dandy”), because Zechs suspects this encounter will lead to combat of some sort, so even if it WAS possible to catch up with more than one capsule, it would be risky to engage multiple targets of unknown abilities. “A hired soldier” would be especially unwise to do so, because they’re not fighting for anything particularly meaningful– they’re just there to do a job, and why be in a hurry to die for your salary?

--This is our first introduction to Zech’s ethos on fighting and what it means to be a soldier, or “True Soldier”. This is also our first introduction to one of Gundam Wing’s Big Important Vocabulary Terms! Which you can find explained in detail in the Dictionary Section.

Unfortunately for us, “Soldier” and “True Soldier” will sometimes be used interchangeably, but they mean very different things.

Zechs is a man deeply concerned with chivalry, honor, and purpose– the morality and aesthetics of combat. A “soldier” might be someone paid to fight, enlisted with no particular goals, or deployed on a mission that doesn’t involve them– but a “TRUE Soldier” is someone fighting to prove something, to advance their goals, to test their own limits in battle with a worthy opponent, to discover something about themselves in the process of fighting.

Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo gives him a Look™ and says “that’s bold of you sir” because Zechs is most certainly not a hired soldier-- as we'll soon learn, he's OZ's ace pilot (more on OZ later), known for his exceptionally fast reflexes and high speed MS combat, which has earned him the moniker "Lighting Count". So while he isn't actually the type to jump into things before understanding what’s going on-- unlike some other people we're about to meet in this episode-- not rushing in combat isn't really what he's famous for.

Also, he’s being kind of a prick! Calling everyone else hired guns and then doubling down by reminding them that HE is a True Soldier?? Yikes!

...Or at least, that’s how the scene reads in English.

First-Episode-Zechs is really laying it on thick for us. And if you’ll take a quick peek behind the curtain with me: Zechs isn’t written this way past this episode. Or really, past this HALF of the episode.

But, if one is looking for an in-character explanation for this dialogue as it stands, it’s possible that First-Episode-Zechs is a glimpse into what a cocksure ace pilot raised on Treize’s idealism (more on that later) is like, right at the peak of his so-far spotless career, and in the last moments he’ll be able to afford this kind of unbridled arrogance before the world conspires to humble him.

Honestly, that would be in keeping with the way ALL the characters are depicted in these early episodes: each naive or overconfident in their own way, not yet having been forced to challenge their ideals.

–But! this might also just be one of many localization fumbles. A fan translation of this scene indicates that what Zechs might actually be trying to say here is more like:

“No need to chase after more work than we signed up for, we’re all just grunts on the front lines together after all”

and Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo is therefore responding to him more like:

“That’s a bit cheeky of you to say, Mr. Best-Friends-With-The-Colonel Ace Pilot The Lighting Count Merquise.”

(...I’ve lamented this before but it’s DAMN HARD to find alternate translations of GW's script, and I'm limited by being a feeble monolingual English speaker. If you’re reading this and have more expertise than I do on this matter and want to share your insights / sources, please know that I'd sign over my soul to see them.)

–On a side note, I love how super crunchy Zechs’ voice is in this first episode. As one astute comment I read once suggested: you can tell Brian Drummond was coming down from playing Vegeta. He still had some of that ol’ Saiyan phlegm in him.

– And now for a brief interlude from our scifi high-politicking to witness some relatable familial drama!

I appreciate this contrast! The important takeaway from this scene is that Relena is the daughter of Vice Foreign Minister Darlian, an important dignitary who mediates between the Earth Sphere Alliance and the Space Colonies. They’re on their way home from one of his frequent business trips to space.

A vague spoiler, but I find it bittersweet how Zechs is unaware that Relena is on the shuttle about to be caught in the crossfire, and by showing up, he is saving her life.

OMG IT’S HAPPENING. IT’S HERE. IT’S TIME TO TALK ABOUT THE “BATTLE SEED”:

Zechs: “So that’s their little battle seed, all ready to sprout into new battles.” Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo: “Ha. Operation M.”

--I get the feeling that Milo is used to Zechs-isms by now and is just like “Oh lieutenant, you kidder,” whenever he says some wild allegorical shit he just made up.

Anyway, here’s the thing about “battle seed”– this is obviously an idiom that we've done poor service to. But in the original, it’s apparently “Battle EGG”, or perhaps, “EGG OF WAR”. Does that help? No? Well that’s all I’ve got for you. Sorry.

Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo: “It moves just like a bird…”

Aw, Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo, you’re so cute when you talk about the enemy death machine. Of course it moves like a bird, it hatched out of a Battle Egg!

Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo: “Let’s wake him up with our machine gun!” Zechs: “No. No machine gun for him– Shoot him down!” Otto: “But, Lt. Zechs…!” Zechs: “We were told the purpose of this operation was to bring in the weapon, but it’s not the weapon, (the real target) is the fighter pilot inside!”

Now, I know “don’t shoot him with the gun, shoot him DOWN with the gun” sounds stupid, but really he’s just saying “No warning shots.”

Whatever kind of new technology they’re up against, strafing it with a machine gun would be like hitting it with spitballs. What they need to do is get the enemy craft out of the air and capture the pilot, and the carrier ship’s machine guns just aren’t going to cut it. --Which is why Zechs is about to hop out and try and fuck it up with a Mobile Suit.

Fucking things up with a Mobile Suit is what Zechses like best.

--It is worth noting that Zechs immediately clocked the pilot as the most dangerous and valuable part of the enemy operation (because of course! Pilots are warriors, and warriors have honor, and a warrior’s honor is proof of humanity’s worth). Mind you, this is moments BEFORE they see the actual Gundam, but nevertheless, this is a significant value statement that will be important throughout the series: It’s the people that matter. It’s always the people that matter. The weapons are secondary. Even if superior technology grants someone an edge in battle, a weak person behind the controls will always betray themselves.

This is partly why Zechs doesn’t use the Aries MS that’s designed for flight, despite this being aerial combat; he goes in his preferred Leo suit, which is your bog-standard humanoid canon fodder Mobile Suit used as ground troops. This seems like a suboptimal choice, but Zechs lives by the idea that a good pilot can overcome the limitations of their machine.

And this is put to the test literally the instant he drops.

–The unfortunate aspect of this scene happening in Episode 01 is that the viewer will have no context yet for exactly how absolutely, impossibly, ludicrously impressive this stunt is. Zechs not only isn’t dead after this, but he manages to fuck up a Gundam using a Leo, which is testament to exactly how much of badass this guy is.

Oh hey speaking of which check it out, it’s a Gundam.

–Two of Zech’s backup squad are instantly blown away in one shot from the Wing Gundam. This is barely commented on, and I think that’s one of the bigger mistakes of this episode. Those two guys aren’t named, and Zechs’ only remark is that it's "not too shabby" / "unbelievable". Considering how much the death of his subordinates weighs on him later, this seems remarkably flippant.

Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo: “Are you alright?” Zechs: “Yeah. Sorry to worry you. I did everything I could.”

See? That’s the kind of rapport Zechs and his subordinates usually have; they keep it professional, but the people who work with Zechs respect him immensely, and as their officer he tries to do right by them.

Zechs: “There’s no bright future for soldiers scurrying for their reward.”

This is a fancy-pants way of expressing disdain for the Alliance sailors who weren’t involved in the fight, but were more than happy to claim the spoils. In the fan translation of this episode he literally says “tell them the treasure sunk at these coordinates”. To him, these are just pirates after loot, not True Soldiers.

___

We just talked about Zechs for a long time. Now let’s talk about Heero Yuy.

Unfortunately for our first Gundam pilot, he took a long, precarious, silent shuttle ride all the way to earth only to be discovered immediately by the Alliance military. He fails to shoot down the civilian carrier that's seen him, and then he fails to shoot down the OZ mobile suit carrier ("Wait" I hear you say, "OZ mobile suit carrier? What's OZ? Aren't Zechs & co. from the Alliance?" Aha! Sharp-eared listener, you miss nothing! Have no fear, we will discuss OZ shortly).

Heero barely has time to dry out the wings of his Wing Gundam before he’s blindsided by OZ’s ace pilot and crashing his infinitely valuable Mobile Suit into the ocean. He makes it out alive by the skin of his teeth.

Not a great first day on the job for our boy Heero! Bad luck meeting Zechs Merquise first thing upon entering earth’s orbit.

But a surprise encounter with OZ's top pilot notwithstanding, this... probably could have gone better, right? Why would our first introduced Gundam pilot be so cavalier about crashing and burning the second he makes it to his destination? Why would he recklessly reveal his Gundam and pick a fight on a stealth mission? And what’s with this giddy energy he’s got after making a fresh kill? Heero isn't exactly a cheerful guy; he only seems to laugh when he's exhilarated about having gotten away with something. This is one of those times, and it is his very most unhinged cackle. Finally, he gets to DO something. Feels good. Feels right.

...It’s almost like this boy has zero sense of self preservation and no investment in his future; shooting down enemies for him is a game with no stakes.

–For the returning Wing viewer: if you're familiar the gist of Operation Meteor, remember that it would have been slated to happen directly before the series started; that’s when all the Gundam pilots (at the urging of their Doctors) independently decided to steal their Gundams and ignore the original premise. So Heero just recently made off like a bandit with the Wing Gundam. He stole that motherfucker right out the display case. His primary objective at the moment isn't primarily to take down OZ and the Alliance (though that's obviously the long-term goal), it's to make sure the Barton Foundation DOESN’T get the Gundam. So really, getting shot down immediately upon arriving on earth isn't the worst thing that could happen. Heero smiles when he finally sees the earth because it means maybe this will be over soon. Mission accomplished. Now all he has to do is die! :)

___

Relena Darlain’s father is a very important, very busy man who never has any time to spare for his daughter, even on her birthday, and in this telenovela of her own life, she’s going to graciously pretend like this doesn’t bother her and make her strong, independent, teenage girl way home on foot, narrating her predicament out loud along the way. She’s the main character, after all, the center of the world. Her troubles are the only troubles that are real.

*Record scratch*

Lying there on the beach is someone who is actually in trouble. She’s the only one here. She HAS to help.

___

–Alright, okay. I see what you did there, Wing.

--The gentleman in Napoleonic cosplay is Treize Khushrenada. He is a Major General (for now) in the Alliance military (for now), and his eyebrows are so big because they are full of secrets.

He and Zechs are best buddies forever and ever, they have matching charm bracelets, and they can finish each other's sandwiches. Whenever these two are on screen together I am going to have to decipher every. single. word. because Treize and Zechs are ALREADY cryptic bastards, and when they're together they talk in friend-speak where only half of what they're communicating actually gets said.

Just this once, as a treat, they are having a fairly intelligible conversation. First one's free.

...But really Treize, taking a call DURING the performance? Bad form old chap, bad form.

SIDE NOTE: Based on the teeny tiny figures, this could maybe be Petrushka? And I desperately want this to be Petrushka because:

It means Treize has good taste

Petrushkranada

–To put this conversation in perspective: Gundanium is a very sophisticated type of semi-metallic ceramic-like compound that can only be refined correctly in outer space. Think of it as something you’d have to spend all your faculty funding on to buy a gram of for your science department. Suddenly, someone rolls up with a six-story building made out of the stuff. “You’ve got to be fucking kidding me” is the only appropriate response.

Treize: "Something like this never would have happened if you and I had been in OZ 15 years ago; that much is for certain."

--If I may humbly direct your attention to my Policy of Ignoring Stupid Shit, this one of the many reasons why we are going to glance at Zechs and Treize's canonical ages, do the math, realize that 15 years ago, Treize and Zechs would have been 9 and 4 years old respectively, and then we are going to gently slide those numbers into the garbage and crank them both up to a respectable adult age in our minds.

--OH RIGHT! OZ!! Remember, we were going to talk about OZ? Well, Treize is going to tell us about it here in a minute, I'm going to tell you about it now, because we need to know what OZ is in brief before we can make sense of this exchange:

OZ is a secret paramilitary organization hiding inside the official Earth Sphere Alliance military. As an organization, it's responsible for a great deal of clandestine political skullduggery and foul play that has left the Colonies and Earth in a state of easily-manipulated perpetual turmoil. OZ has been around for a while-- that's because its even MORE clandestine and sinister parent organization is even older. In its current incarnation, OZ is hiding out inside the elite mobile suit division called the "Specials", which Treize commands. In addition to being the Special's commander, he personally trained many of its top members when he was serving as an instructor at the Lake Victoria Military Academy. Zechs, and a number of other important characters we'll meet, all graduated from this academy under Treize's tutelage, and now serve him as elite mobile suit pilots in the Specials. Which is OZ. Which is the even more shadowy and sinister organization beneath that. It's a turducken of villainy.

What makes the Specials / OZ noteworthy in the ranks of the Alliance is that they are given free reign to act on their own initiative in combat. They don't answer to the Alliance military, they answer to Treize. This pisses a significant number of significant people off.

Treize pisses a significant number of significant people off. He's under the age of 65, which makes him an infant in the ranks of the brass. He's got elusive, powerful aristocratic backing that makes him untouchable. His followers are fanatically, and I mean FANATICALLY loyal to him. And he has the absolute chutzpah to be really good at everything he does. GOD he's the worst. His eyebrows are insured for $10,000.

--When Treize is lamenting that he and Zechs weren't in OZ fifteen years ago, he is referring to a very, very important sequence of events that began around AC 180 (give or take, if you're following my advice about stretching the timeline); events that brought the Earth and the Colonies within an arm's reach of unification and peace, only to be catastrophically and violently ripped apart, to the detriment of both.

(This is a very important date for Zechs, in particular. It's a very important date for the Gundams as well.)

Treize is making the point that if he and Zechs had been in charge back in the day, well, all this revolutionary sentiment wouldn't be necessary. We would have handled that mess far more sensibly, wouldn't we, Bestie?

-- Zechs has already absorbed this subtext and skips ahead to say "Gundams are on earth." Emphasizing that yes, shit really is popping off. The thing we heard scary bedtime stories about is real and it's happening and we get to be the ones to deal with it. Exciting times we're living in.

Treize: "I'm sure you're aware, but this is an important period. Do not do anything to anger the Alliance." Zechs, smirking: "I fully understand."

The Gundams aren't the only scary thing under the Alliance's bed. Lots of volatile elements are about to collide, all at once, very soon. Treize is just giving Zechs a wink and a nudge-- hey, I know you already know that big things are afoot, I trust you not to rock the boat too early.

--Oh! For the record, OZ stands for Organization of the Zodiac. You may have noticed that the two standard Mobile Suits we've been introduced to so far were called "Aries" and "Leo". OZ is inseparable from the history of Mobile Suit development, and all of its MS are therefore constellation-themed. ...But it's also just straight up a reference to "The Wizard of OZ", because OZ's signature mascot is--

--A LIIIIOOON!!!

...Yes! Thank you Tinylion, now we know why you're here. Back in your teapot now, sweetie. There you go.

--It's a lion, and the insignia for the OZ space corps is the Tin Man. The series lead scriptwriter Sumisawa loves him a book & film reference, you will find them all over Wing.

___

–Gosh, Treize is so SASSY in this episode. Look at this delinquent, showing up late for War Class because he was at a concert and on the phone with his boyfriend. Here he is giving lip to his supervisors, answering questions with totally undisguised disdain. He can’t keep getting away with it. He’s a naughty, naughty boy. Someone should teach him a lesson.

–God yes, General Septem. Fuck yes. The best worst voice acting in the show. Iconic. Immortal. Powerful. Showstopping. Brave. Go off, Nappa.

-VALUABLE KHAMBET RESAWRSEZ

–Treize is sitting at the war table like a fox in a chicken coop, biding his time and thinking: “I don’t owe these complacent, arrogant fools answers for anything. They haven’t left their desks in decades. They’ve never seen the cost of human life first hand. In the depths of their ignorance they think they’re the ones who can steer the course of the future. Hilarious. Thank god for Me.”

MEANWHILE: Relena is still on the beach trying to figure out what to do with this sick feral cat she found.

The TNR crew finally shows up with a kitty crate but the cat wakes up and tries to chew its own head off in self-defense. Having failed to die, it bites everyone, hijacks their car, and gets the fuck out of Dodge.

“Ma’am have you had all your shots?”

Relena is not listening. Relena is introducing herself to the Heero-shaped dust cloud that’s still lingering in the air, because what the fuck else are you gonna do.

Oh hey look it’s more Gundams!

The Gashapons of War have touched down in different parts of the world and set to work wreaking havoc immediately.

Unbeknownst to the Alliance or OZ, any appearance of coordination between the Gundams is an accident– none of them have any idea there are other Gundams besides their own.

They’re all in the same position as Heero: they refused the original premise of Operation Meteor and now they’re on borrowed time fighting whatever enemies come up on their radar. Each of them thinks they’re in this alone (except for Quatre, who has groupies).

However, just because the pilots aren’t coordinated doesn’t mean the mysterious people giving them orders are. But we'll learn more about that later.

--- Let's meet the rest of the Gundam boys!

–Duo: LEEEEROOOOY JENKINS we only get old memes in the colonies –Trowa: New phone, new name, new Gundam, who may I ask is calling –Wufei: Stealth missions are for casuals who can’t fight their way out of impossible odds. Skill issue. –Quatre: I am literally begging you to not fuck around so I don’t have to make you find out.

Speaking of Quatre: Hey! If this were a different series with a mature audience rating, this scene would be unmentionably gruesome!

___

-Awww, Soldier-I’ve-Named-Milo is bad at math! He’s just like me for real. Anyway, there are (4 + 1 = 5)....Five. Five Gundams total.

-Zechs correctly makes the assessment that the game has just changed, and it’s about to get extremely serious very quickly.

___

And now, the moment we’ve all been waiting for:

Spicy feral kitten arrives at Relena’s school. Relena is more confused than ever, but now this is officially a Mystery. She likes mysteries. She likes Mystery Boy. He’s the perfect foil for her, the main character, in this YA novel that she is the protagonist of.

Feral Mystery Boy suddenly makes it 100% publicly clear that he has no interest in playing nice, or in playing at all. Mystery Boy leans in real close, and says a thing that you might hear from, say, a guy in a black suit you accidentally witnessed murdering someone in a back alley, who then followed you to school.

The telenovela of Relena’s life is hitting its mid-season dark plot-twist, and

She.

Loving.

It.

Tune in next week for Episodes 2 - 3!

~TinyOzLion, out.

#Parsing Post #Gundam Wing #Gundam Wing Meta #Gundam Meta #Gundam Wing Episode Guide #Episode Analysis #tinyozlion pgw

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bustyasianbeautiespod · 9 months

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Episode 76 Transcript: Uriel is the Funniest Angel in the Garrison and the Worst Thespian in All of History

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello. My name is Grey.

C: And my name is Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show several times…

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we are discussing Season 4, Episode 16: "On the Head of a Pin," written by Ben Edlund, directed by Mike Rohl.

C: This is a big one. [G: Big one.] What does the title mean, actually? It doesn't come up.

G: I suppose it's like, you know, because it's angel v angel, so it's like, dancing can be-

C: Fighting?

G: Fighting, yeah.

C: Sure. Okay.

G: So they're dancing on the head of a pin this episode. I like the title of this one. And like, I know that nowadays, in- and even back then. Like, Supernatural fandom has always been very conscious of like, title names and like, writers. Like, you say a scene, and everyone is like, "Oh, yeah, that scene is in Episode blah blah blah written by blah blah blah." And it's like, you know, people are very aware of the writers and everything. [C: Right.] But even before I was involved with any fandom whatsoever, this episode, I remember as like, this is an episode I remember. And I remember it also as being written by the same guy as "The Man Who Would be King." And like, I don't even know why I had that like, conscious thought or like, I paid enough attention in that regard to have that conscious thought before I got into the fandom of it all. But yeah.

C: It's important.

G: It's important. It's true! I mean, Ben Edlund has been swinging back and forth between being our enemy and being our friend, [C laughs] and by being our friend, I mean like, being fine. [both laugh] So he's swinging back and forth in between being our enemy and being fine. But this episode-

C: He's our friend this time.

G: Yeah, he's a friend of this one. And like, a big part of it is that it's so- it's like, our first angel-centric episode, like, really. Because all of the other ones- I think I mentioned it last episode like, Cas would just show up for like, five minutes or like, halfway through the episode or whatever. The angels are never the center, the focus. Like, when we open this episode, and it's Cas, like, the first scene is Cas [C: Uh-huh!], and it's like, you know, I think about like, "Oh, what must people have felt when this was first airing?" And they see this and it's like, "Okay, we're in the big one! This is the big plot one!" And I mean, it is. It is the big plot one. It's crazy. I suppose because they don't interact with much people we don't know prior,there's also less of the annoying "Ugh, the Winchesters are hanging out with people! I don't wanna-" like, [laughs] "and they're being so annoying about it!" part, too. So I think that's a big part also why it's so- like, it's nicer to watch. [laughs] 'Cause you don't have to deal with the everything else.

C: Yeah. Right, there's no humans in this episode [G: Yes.] besides the two of them.

G: I think, actually, this is a really good follow-up to last episode, don't you think?

C: Yeah, yeah. I mean-

G: Like, the discussions of being special and all that.

C: Yeah. And, you know, "Whatever the angels have in store for you, it's not actually good. Stop lying to yourself." [G: Yeah.] All those ideas get explored here.

G: Like, I mean, throughout this episode, I did feel like, empathy for Dean. I'm like, "Good lord. That's horrible! [laughs] that reveal must have been horrible. That responsibility must be horrible," and all that crap.

C: I guess? Sorry. [laughs] Still no.

G: I mean, it wasn't like, my main thought.

C: [laughing] When he got all upset, I was like, "Okay. And? You didn't know." He didn't know that that was going to break the seal. Why does it matter?

G: Well, it matters because it did!

C: Well, I just- I don't see how that's relevant. [both laugh]

G: It's not important to his journey. [laughing]

C: It's not. It's not important to anyone's journey.

G: No, I actually- I felt a lot about this episode. I don't know. This gets thrown around a lot in the Destiel circles. I mean, I don't really recall how people interface with it as a Destiel episode, but like, it's not. And I also like that about it. Like, Cas's struggles and all that is like, removed from Dean in some way. [C: Mm-hm.] They do interact, and their interactions are good, like, I do think their conversations are good in this one. I mean, it's kind of like- What do we mean when we say "It's a Destiel episode"? Like, "It's like, obviously romantic" or whatever?

C: Just that their connection seems to be the focus of the episode.

G: Yeah, that's true. So that's going to be our definition of the term from now on. [C laughs] Like, moving forward, it's their connection. Yeah. Their profound bond, even. Yeah. And this one, there are aspects of it here, but I like that It's so Cas-y. Like, it's so Cas-centric. [C: Yeah.] Oh, Cas is so wonderful! [laughs]

C: Yeah, and I like Anna and Uriel in this episode a lot, too. [G: Yeah.] I think they're all much bigger in my head than Dean was.

G: Yeah, exactly. Like, I think this is what we said about that episode that we liked and was rated so low. The magicians one. What's it called?

C: "Criss Angel is a Douchebag."

G: Yeah, the old guy yaoi. [C laughs] And it's like, that one, it's like, it's barely about Sam and Dean, and that's why it's good. And I suppose it's rated low because it's barely about Sam and Dean, in the not plot way. [C: Yeah.] But this one is like, barely about Sam and Dean in the plot way. And also, I mean, I also said last time, right, like, what makes this stand out in your head, like, what makes you remember it is the atmosphere of it. And agh, wonderful. Wonderful! It's a wonderful episode. I quite like it. So what did you know about it going in? Obviously, like, everything, probably.

C: Yeah, I mean, obviously, I knew about the flickering halo streetlamp shot [G: Agh, yeah!], most important thing that's ever happened. I know that it ends with Cas having a conversation with Dean in the hospital where Dean talks about like, letting down both of their dads. I knew that this was gonna be the episode where Sam's demon blood drinking gets fully revealed, and that he like, saves Cas with his powers on Alastair. I know that Cas says, "I would give anything to like, have you not do this" or whatever before he tells Dean that he has to go torture Alastair. And then I guess just the gist of Cas's conversation with Anna, and how he asks her to tell him what to do, and she refuses. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, just most of it.

G: I think those are the big parts. But also, like, every single scene in this episode with Cas in it, like, every single shot of Cas, is like "that's an iconic shot." Like, [laughs] and then the next scene happens and you're like, "Wow, that's also an iconic shot of Cas."

C: Yeah. For real.

G: You go through the profile pictures of every Cas girl on the Tumbles [C laughs], it's probably gonna be from this episode, you know? Yeah it's that iconic. It is. Yeah. Oh, they really go ham on the halo imagery on this one.

C: Yeah, yeah, thank god.

G: It's like, the lowest hanging fruit of having an angel character, but like, I mean, I love fruits, baby! I love to pick them. [C laughs] So it's fine.

G: So the "Then" sequence is like, very Anna-centric, I would say, but not in the like, way you would connect with the character. It's kind of like, the plot of her, you know, the plot of her presence in the show, and it really focuses on the "Oh, she's an angel now." Because I do think that is a little bit hard to recall. Like, that's not the first thing you remember because the last time we actually interact with her is, she knows she's an angel, but she doesn't have her Grace, and so now it's like, "Oh, she has her Grace." Although we don't really see it this episode.

C: I mean, it ends on getting her Grace yet, but yeah.

G: So, you know, like, it's just at the tail end of the episode. We don't really interact with her as an angel with her Grace back. [C: Mm.] I mean, we also still don't. And I actually quite like that. Because, like, they really make a point of having Cas, like, move things telepathically a lot this episode, but you have Anna, who doesn't do that at all and like, actually touches Cas. And it's like, you know, it's wonderful to me that this whole episode, Cas doesn't touch anything. I mean, you know what I mean. [C: Yeah.] Like, when he's trying to like, move something the pipes, whatever, he just telepathically does it. Then you have Anna, like, reaching out to him, and that's something that he's like, offended by, almost. Yeah.

C: Yeah. I mean, she teleports and makes the lights flicker, but you're right that there's like, less of her power showing off this episode. We also get some Sam recap in the "Then" sequence. I mean, to lead up to the demon blood reveal, like, we have the part where he tells Ruby, "It's not the psychic thing I have a problem with." I guess, like, we've probably already discussed it when it actually happened, but, like, do you have further thoughts on that ? Like, what does he actually think is so bad about drinking demon blood? 'Cause that's like, the big thing of Season 4, right? [G: Yeah.] It's like, "Oh, what Sam's doing is like, probably evil. We're not sure. Oh, we're pretty sure it's evil." But like, what's supposed to like, really, really hammer that down is like, "He's drinking demon blood, and that just automatically is an evil action"? [G: Yeah.] And it's like, what is that ?

G: Because you can say that like, "Oh, it can lead to like, further bad things," like, you know that, nurse that he bled out or whatever at the end of the season. [C: Yeah, sure.] But like, that doesn't happen yet. And also, like, Ruby's vessel is like, that's just her. There's no one in there. So no one's suffering in that way.

C: And they don't give a shit about the vessels anymore. [G: Yeah.] Like that is very clear with like, everything Dean's doing to Alastair later.

G: Yeah.

C: Like, there is a guy there. They don't give a fuck. So it's not about that.

G: Not at all.

C: Okay, I guess Uriel is the one who has the talk with Sam, where he's like, "Your mom died because Azazel wanted to force demon blood inside of you, and now you're just like, doing the same thing voluntarily with Ruby." Right, so I guess that's something. Just the association of that with Mary's death.

G: Yeah. To Sam, that makes it fundamentally bad. To us, I don't know. But like, yeah, to Sam, that can be like, a reason why. Though I feel like that's a bit weak.

C: Yeah. Mm-hm. I agree. It doesn't feel like the same thing, exactly. And I mean, okay, in Season 2, we have, you know, Sam, following the psychic kids and being like, more and more afraid that, like, all of them like, "go bad," all of them end up killing people. One could claim it's the [both] demon blood that makes them evil.

G: Although I presume that's the- you know.

C: Are we supposed to think there are actual mental, like, effects?

G: No.

C: Like, are we supposed to think that, like, Sam getting arrogant in Season 4 is partly because of like, the demon blood being mood-altering in any way?

G: I don't think so. [C: I don't think so.] Because, like, we see like that guy who like, has the giant bong. He seems pretty cool.

C: Andy? Is that his name?

C: Yeah. Does he end up being a murderer? That's not him, right? That's Ava.

C: No, Ava kills him before he can be a murderer.

G: Sad! He should have been a murderer. [C laughs] Well, I mean, we can see from the episode like, the different kids- those different- like, them. [laughs] What's the term they use in the-?

C: [laughing] Psychic kids.

G: Yeah. [laughs] The different psychic kids have different reactions-

C: [laughing] It's so funny when people call us Samgirls. True Samgirls would never. [G laughs] But yeah.

G: Yeah, I'm so sorry. But like, you know, the different psychic kids had different reactions due to situation, and like, Ava seems very into it, but like, I don't think that's a demon blood thing. I think it's just she was there for a long time, and she-

C: Yeah, her fiance was killed like, pretty brutally.

G: Yeah. And she's really into it.

C: Like, we all cope in our ways.

G: Exactly. I don't think it's directly that, but maybe Sam can think it, although I don't think he does. I think part of it is just the surrounding accoutrement to it, which is that doing this means he has to lie to Dean, and- Well, only that, I presume. Like, doing this means he has to like, hide it, which may make it feel like, guilty. You know, there's the aspect of "Oh, if you're- why would you hide it if it's bad?" which Dean has brought up before.

C: Or "Why would you hide it if you think there's nothing wrong with it."

G: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that one. Yeah. And it's like, "Oh, it's because Dean will judge me," but also, "Dean will judge me because Dean thinks it's bad," and it's like, it just piles onto each other. So I don't know. [C: Yeah.] Like, it is uncomfortable to lie to a person who is with you like, all the time, so.

C: Yeah, I guess it also makes Sam like, dependent on Ruby [G: On something, yeah.] in a way he wouldn't want to be.

G: Yeah, which is what they lean into.

C: I mean, not necessarily because he could just like, go around and then like, suck the blood out of demons. Like, he does do that, doesn't he? So he's not actually that dependent on Ruby, but you're right that they do sort of lean into it where it's like, now it seems like he really really-

G: A drug allegory.

C: Yeah.

G: I mean, also, they hunt- they do hunt vampires, and this is what they do. What do vampires do? Do vampires literally just drink blood?

C: Yeah.

G: Well, I mean, this is like, the same thing, and if vampires are worth hunting, and then- you know. But that's different. Because those people need it to live. And Sam is like-

C: He needs to feed Lilith, so that everyone in the world can live.

G: So it is a need for him too. Yeah, exactly. I do think strongly it's just that the hiding aspect of it is, like, frustrating and difficult, and makes it feel worse than how Sam would feel if he didn't have to hide it.

C: I guess. But also, I feel like we're talking about like, Supernatural here, right? [G laughs] And I feel like for Supernatural, it's like, the language of like, biological impurity is pretty big in Supernatural. Like, I feel like it is just like a-

G: "We're tainting-" yeah.

C: - instinctual, like, "Eugh!" thing. Just, yeah, like, "You're tainting your blood with like, the inferior blood of like, the evil demon race." Like, it feels like they're leaning into that rhetoric and just expecting the audience to like, understand that and like, sympathize with that rhetoric. Which, like, is another reason, I guess, why the whole "Sam is evil" storyline just doesn't really work for me in Season 4.

G: Yeah.

C: But yeah, I think there's probably a lot of things mixed up in it.

G: Of course.

C: Okay, I guess the one other "Then" sequence thing that I thought was odd was that the line that they kept from Pamela was, "I know what you did to that demon," and not the part where she says, "If you think you have good intentions, think again." Like, why?

G: Yeah, because then it makes-

C: Why would Pamela knowing be important? She's dead. [laughs]

G: I think this is supposed to like, do the whole, "And it's not just exorcism now. Like, it's killing," whatever.

C: Sure. Okay.

G: Yeah. But also it makes it seem like what Pamela had an issue with was like, [laughs] killing the demon instead of like, whatever it is she had an issue with, which is pretty funny to me personally.

C: "That demon was my pal! How could you?"

G: No like, you know how like, later, when Sam is torturing Alastair and Cas is looking at him like- I mean, we'll talk about what Cas looked like in that scene later. [C: Hot.] But like, I kept on thinking like, "This is what you like, wanted. Like, you wanted Alastair tortured to get info out of him." [C: Mm-hm.] Like, you can't judge Sam for doing what you were like, already doing.

C: Yeah, like, it's okay to do it, using like, physical torture with knives and shit, [G: Yeah.] but like, as soon as Sam uses his powers, it's like... bad? Okay, I don't get it. If you say so.

G: And that's kind of the vibe of the Pamela line here. It's like, "It's okay if you kill the demon with, you know, stabby stabby."

C: I mean, Dean says, "Hey, use the knife" in "Metamorphosis."

G: Yeah. "Or if you exorcise a demon with your words, it's fine. But once you start waving your hands around? [C laughs] No-no-no-no-no." And it's like, "Okay, well, I don't fucking know what we're doing here."

C: Yeah, we just still have not seen any evidence that the blood is-

G: That it's bad, yeah. [laughs]

C: - like, actually changing Sam in any way besides giving him powers. And like, maybe the idea is that we're just supposed to know that it comes with a catch 'cause it has to 'cause demons are evil, but, like, I don't know that!

G: We start with Cas, as I've said. [C: Cas!] First scene of this episode is Cas. And like, I just find it so funny that, like, [laughs] whenever we talk about a previous episode before that was just okay until Cas shows up, like last episode and "The Great Pumpkin" episode, it's like, [laughs] you know, like, you could actively hear us be like, "So like, oh, yeah, we're just waiting for Cas to show up" when we're talking about the scenes. [laughs] And now, like, Cas is literally here. He has shown up, first go. This intro is actually- it's iconic to me. I remember it. I mean, to be fair, I remember, like, all of this episode. But this intro, specifically, I remember watching it and thinking, "That's cool!" when we pan out at the end.

C: Oh, absolutely.

G: Yeah. This is the first time we see an angel die, right? And so this episode is the first instance of the wings like, being burnt in this way.

C: Yes! God. Such a good idea.

G: And it's such a good choice. And like, the thing about Supernatural is you can say anything about it, and I literally do mean that. [laughs] You can literally say anything about Supernatural. But the way they handle the imagery of the angels, like, the physicality of it, I do find it quite impressive, always. Like,the wings part specifically. The fact that Supernatural never shows the wings, it's always just shadows, I think is such an excellent choice. Because, like, I just don't- I just think like, you need like, a high budget, and like, amazing execution to be able to pull off having physical wings like that. But like, even then, it's still so present, even though you don't actually see the physicality of it. It's still present. You know that Cas has wings 'cause you've seen it, even though you haven't seen it. When these angels die, you know that they're angels who had wings because you see it! It's imprinted on the floor, burned to the ground. Oh, wonderful! I mean that we're not there yet. We're just with Cas, and he's walking. And it's like, in this dark night, and there's like, a bunch of cars, and they're crashed into each other. And Cas is just walking through this. There's like, alarms blaring.

C: He turns a car alarm off. [G: Yeah.] Even though, like, the cops are already coming, so like, I guess the only reason wouldn't be that the sound bothers him, and I love that.

G: Yeah. I love it! Yeah, he walks towards this woman who is on the ground.

C: Guess what color dress she's wearing? [G laughs]

G: Literally, my first thought was like, [both laughing] "They put this fucking angel in this white nightgown-ish outfit."

C: Yeah, and she's blonde. [G: She's blonde.] She looks a fair amount like Mary, I think.

G: Yeah. Like, Supernatural is never beating the white nightgown allegations. Like, I genuinely do think they're never going to beat it.

C: Right, like, okay, so she was on Earth, like, battling people [G: Yeah!] in this? Bad idea! I don't get it.

G: 'Cause Anna is an angel, yes, but she was human for a long while, so when we see her, she's in her human outfit.

C: Yeah. And I think with Cas and Uriel, they both are just sort of wearing what their vessels were wearing when they like, possessed them for the first time.

G: Specifically what I'm saying is like, when we do see angels like- I don't know. Like, Naomi had a vessel, too, but like, that one is like, she's dressed up corporate style. And then you have the- I don't know, there's an angel in Season 6 who shows up and reprimands Sam and Dean for using Cas. She's in corporate attire. I feel like Hannah was in corporate attire when she was in a woman vessel. Raphael, when he was in a woman vessel, was in- you know what I mean. [C: Right, yeah.] And so this one kind of feels like an exception to the rule of like, all the angels are in corporate wear.

C: Yeah, I get that they like, just wanted it to look really cool for their first angel death, and I do think that the like, dress helps with the burnt wings and everything.

G: Yeah, 'cause it's like, a stark difference.

C: I mean, she's part of their garrison, and their garrison has been on Earth for thousands of years, like, all fighting together, right? is the history that Cas talks about with Uriel. [G: Yes.] So like, yeah, I feel like realistically, she wouldn't be wearing this.

G: So yeah, lady's on the ground, and Cas moves over like, a piece of cloth that is covering her middle of her chest, and we see that she has a stab wound a little bit below her neck.

C: That's below where the Grace is, right? Like, the Grace, is closer to the Adam's apple area.

G: Yes, I think the Grace is like, at the base of the neck, almost. This is not a removing the Grace thing. This is like, she's being stabbed to death. [C: Yeah.] And Castiel looks at this and goes, [James Charles-esque voice] "Goodbye, sister." [laughs] It's James Charles here. [C laughs] He literally does not say it like that, though.

C: That's a great "Jensen Ackles doing Misha Collins impression" impression.

G: Cas goes to leave, and we see a bunch of police officers just looking at this scene and going, "What the hell?" And then we swoop up. There's like, bunch of flashlights going around, like, looking at the area beside her. And as the flashlight pans around, we see that there are links seared into the road. Wonderful!

C: Yup. The timing of all that is so good. Because it's like a bird's eye view shot, and you just like, see her like, as a spot of white against like, this, like, [G: Dark night, yeah.] dark pool of black, and then just the flashlights just like, move and overlap with each other just so, and then you see the wings, and it's so cool. It's so cool. [G: Yeah.] They don't always do that in the future, do they? Like, when, like, Miriam died, did they bother to like, have burned wings?

G: They only do it, for, like, dramatic stuff, I feel. I mean, when Cas died while getting stabbed, they didn't even wing him.

C: God damn.

G: Is that true?

C: Like, at the end of Season 12?

G: I don't know. Maybe that's a lie and I'm lying to you.

C: I just feel like I would have seen like, ten million Cas burned wings shots in like, AMVs [G: That's true!] if we got to see a Cas burned wing shot. Like, I know that there's like, a Jack one 'cause I see it.

G: People will parallel the hell out of that, if it like happened more than once for anything, yeah?

C: Exactly.

G: I think we have it here, we have it with Uriel later.

C: Godstiel. The field of burned wings.

G: Oh- oh! Yeah. I mean, that scene is wonderful, but it's colored in a way that if you put in it an AMV [C: Yeah.], it looks so odd.

C: It's ugly.

G: Yeah, it's bad. Which is also my main complaint with the Purgatory Season 8.

C: Of course.

G: Like, I genuinely feel like they were comfortable enough to make it that gay because they were like, "And nobody's gonna be able to put it in their fucking AMVs [C laughs] because it looks so bad."

C: Literally.

C: We cut to the Impala, and [both] Sam's driving! Hello!

G: And immediately I was like, "Okay, what are the like, implications of Sam driving in this episode?" Because they cannot just let that guy drive. It needs to have a reason. I guess it's to-

C: It's to continue the "I'm stronger than you, I can do things you can't" thing.

G: Yeah. Which is also the topic of the conversation while he's driving that like, Dean is too upset, too tired, blah blah blah.

C: Sam is saying that they're going to Cheyenne to meet with Ruby. You know, he starts being like, "I know you don't really like her, blah blah blah," but Dean's like, "IDGAF." It turns out that what's on Dean's mind is Pamela's death.

G: He says, "I don't really give a rat's ass," which, like, I mean, he's said this before, I think. For sure. This is like, a typical Deanspeak. Is it like, something people say?

C: Yeah, I've heard it other ways, around.

G: Okay, okay, great. Yeah. There are so many phrases in Supernatural that I have to guess whether, like, people actually say it or like, Dean says it. [C laughs] And sometimes I would use it in real life and like, people would be like, "Oh, where'd you get that phrase?" [C laughs] Because, like, you know, even if it's common in the United States, for example, like, it's not gonna be as common in the Philippines. And I have to be like, [laughing] "Oh, it's an American saying." [C laughs] And I just pray to God that like, it's an American saying and not a Dean saying, and if they Google it, the first result isn't like, "What did Dean Winchester mean by this [both laughing] when he said it on Supernatural?"

C: Well, "rat's ass" is safe.

G: Rat ass. Don't give a rat's ass. Yeah.

C: Right, so what Dean's upset about is Pamela's death. He says, "Pamela didn't want anything to do with this, and we dragged her back into it." And I guess Sam's sort of just compartmentalizing really hard, right? [G: yeah.] I mean, it does suck that like, he was the one who, like, woke up at the moment of her stabbing, so like, he probably feels more responsibility for like, not being there on time. And also, like, her last words were to him, and were like, pretty soul-shaking for him or whatever. So yeah. He's just going like, "She knew what was at stake." Dean says that he's tired of burying friends. Like-

G: Who the hell else do they have to bury in Supernatural?

C: And also, Pamela we talked to her- we saw her like, three times before this? [G: Yeah.] Also, who else was it? Who else did he bury? I don't think he did.

G: Is there anyone else that they bury in Season 4?

C: Not that I recall.

G: Season 3.

C: Who in Season 3?

G: No, I'm asking like, [laughs] who did they bury in Season 3.

C: Like, Bela died, but they didn't like her. Gordon died, but like, Sam did that shit. [G laughs]

G: Sam caused that to happen, yeah. [C laughs] [C: Yeah. Ugh.] Henriksen died. But that's in Season 2.

C: Yeah.

G: Is that in Season 2? No, that's in Season 3.

C: No no no, "Jus in Bello," yeah, that's in Season 3, and Dean did like him.

G: Did like him eventually, yeah.

C: And he did show up as a ghost in 4.02.

G: You mentioned the other day you don't think Dean is a friend person. Like, you don't think Dean just ever defines anyone as a friend, and I've been thinking about it. Because the only other person we have outlined here, aside from Pamela, is like, Henriksen, and I think [laughs] Dean wanted to fuck that guy. Like, genuinely.

C: Yeah. And I feel like Pamela, like, we were supposed to think that, like, both of the boys were attracted to her, and she was attracted to them back in some way.

G: Not even that. To me, Pamela is more of a like- it's a friend buddy, you know? Like, I don't think they're calling Pamela to talk to her about their days or whatever. [C: Right.] To like, "Oh, I saw a snail on the road. Effervescent." her, you know? [C laughs] Like, I think she's someone they call when they need something for a job. And that's fine. Like, it's a fine relationship to have to Pamela.

C: Yeah, she's a work friend, just like Sam and Bobby. [G laughing]

G: Yeah. Dean and Bobby is like, "That's my dad." [laughs] And Sam and Bobby is like, "That's my boss, dude." [C laughing] Like "That's a librarian that I met."

C: "That's my manager. He's really mean to me sometimes." [G laughs]

G: No, exactly. But I don't know. Like, I mean, obviously, it's fine if Dean calls Pamela his friend. Like, yeah, they did go through shit or whatever. But you're right that Dean doesn't develop what we typically think of as a friendship relationship with like, anyone. [C: Yeah.] Until we get to Charlie, I suppose. I would say Charlie is a friend, although they also make it a point of being like, "Oh, Charlie's like, my sister." Which, yeah, typical Dean! Does Sam have any friends?

C: Does Sam have any friends. [laughs] He used to.

G: He used to, yeah.

C: He had Stanford friends-

G: Those college friends and everything.

C: Yeah. Like, we open with him having friends. He was friends with that kid who got bullied in "After School Special."

G: Yeah, he was friends with Brady. We haven't met Brady yet. When the hell are we gonna meet Brady? I don't even know who Brady is. Like, I know Brady is like, a college friend, but I only know him from like, people who are like, "Oh, my headcanon for Brady is," and I have no idea what he is in canon. I'm so sorry. I know we're allegedly Samgirls, but like, it's literally not true. [laughs]

C: No one thinks that except for like, Deangirls.

G: Exactly. In the future, I feel like him and Eileen were friends-

C: Is Jody a friend?

G: - before they were something, but like, I think we would be called hypocrites for saying that because we're saying that Henriksen and Dean were not friends. But [laughs] literally, Henriksen and Dean were not friends. And Sam and Eileen were calling each other and everything. That's a different-

C: Right. Henriksen was trying to put them in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives-

G: [laughs] Yeah, exactly, until the last-

C: - until 20 minutes before his death. Rowena. Rowena's gonna be his friend.

G: That's true, but also, I think they should fuck raw, but that's just me personally, and also everybody.

C: Yeah, I mean, Sam and Eileen and Sam and Rowena were both like, friends who should fuck raw.

G: Yeah. But that doesn't mean they're not friends, I feel like. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] They're still friends. They just also should fuck raw.

C: Jody? Is Jody a friend?

G: I think Jody is a friend, although I don't really remember much of the Jody-Sam-and-Dean relationship-

C: Yeah, nor I.

G: Mostly because I think the bulk of that happens in "Asa Fox," which is in Season 12, which is the season where I sort of lost my mind.

C: Okay, Dean supposedly had his friend in the- in "Sin City." The guy with, like, the New York accent or the whatever?

G: What the fuck is "Sin City"? We already watched that, and I have no recollection of what it is.

C: Yeah, in 3.04.

G: Ohh! I still have no idea.

C: The guy- the guy with the New York or Boston [G laughs] or something accent. I literally am USAmerican, I should know this.

G: Both of them are kind of buddies with that guy, right?

C: Well, no, he was someone that Dean had done a solo hunt with in the past but Sam had not met yet.

G: Oh, okay, is this the guy with the nice shirt? He talks about having a nice shirt? He's like, "and the shirt's silk, bro" or something. [C: Yeah.] Good for him. I mean, as I was saying, Dean also had another hunter buddy, the one in like, "Just the good old boys." What's that?

C: Lee? You mean that guy?

G: What everybody thinks he fucked. [laughs] Which doesn't really help our case. But no, that's a buddy, that's a friend. And you know who else is his friend? [both laughing]

C: Are we doing this? Again?

G: It's Cas, baby! I think Cas is his friend.

C: I mean, not yet.

G: Not yet, yeah.

C: I mean, Sam and Cas are also friends. Yeah, no, I mean, all of them are pretty bad at friends, and all- like, Dean especially likes to fit his friends into the family paradigm instead of the friend paradigm. [G: Yeah.] And also, you know, a lot of the people that he's close to, he just seems to see us his responsibility rather than like, a companion.

G: Yeah. And I mean, their being bad at friendship we see bleed over to Jack when he literally [laughs]- he makes friends with those kids and like, kind of stabs one of them. Good for him. [C laughs] I miss Jack already. We haven't even met him in the podcast yet.

C: His ideas of friendship came from like, Riverdale or something. [G laughs] I'm sure those kids stab each other all the time. They're also like, canonically in a polyamorous, like-

G: Is that true?

C: - four-person relationship for a bit.

G: Yeah, maybe he saw those- I don't know. Those lesbian people-

C: He saw this kiss and was like, "Oh, okay, I see what's going on. We're all dating now? Yeah."

G: [laughs] Exactly. He was like, "I know where this is going. They did it in Riverdale." [C laughs] What's that? The Greater Boston Polyamorous Circle? That joke that people-

C: The Greater Seattle... Polycule, yeah.

G: Yeah, exactly. And he's going to enter the Greater Seattle Polycule.

C: Alright. Anyway, so,yeah, Dean says this line that doesn't really make that much sense, and Sam's still, you know, pushing, like, "Okay, and then we do this, and then we do this," and Dean says that he's just getting tired. And Sam says, "Well, get angry," which I love!

G: Which is interesting. I thought that was an interesting thing to say, 'cause the next scene-

C: Dean's angry.

G: They enter-

C: He heard that advice and was like, "Yup. On it."

G: Dean was like, so angy, and the whole time, Sam is kind of like, trying to stop Dean from being like, "Dean don't be so mad." And it's like, this is the people that you're probably supposed to be angry with! Like, for fucking real! But like, Sam doesn't think of it that way 'cause Sam thinks that, like, the path to the Apocalypse is what's killing their friends, and so they need to stop the Apocalypse. [C: Right.] But to Dean, it's like, the angels not helping-

C: "You're putting us in danger," yeah.

G: "The angels not helping is what's killing our friends." And also, I guess a big part of it is that Dean had that conversation with Cas where Cas explicitly said, like, "We sent you to do this." So.

C: Yeah, okay, Sam's "Get angry" is fun to me. Just 'cause like, I don't know, I guess I'd sort of forgotten how revenge-driven he's been for a long time. I mean, we saw him get quite revenge driven at the end of Season 1, and then we saw "Mystery Spot," which is sort of like, a look into what his first few months after Dean's death were like. Maybe this fits into what Pamela was saying about the good intentions, but it's like- I feel like we are like- He's trying to kill Lilith to save the world, but I guess he started trying to kill Lilith for revenge for Dean's death, right? Like, do you feel like that's still what's primarily motivating him now? Like, what is he thinking?

G: I wouldn't say it's number one motivation right now, but I'm sure it like, helps that like, "Oh, and she wronged me personally."

C: Is saving the world his primary motivation, though?

G: I don't know. Because I think about it, and it's like, Episode 2 is the reveal that the world is ending in some way, right? Like, that's when Cas said it. That, like, Lucifer, is going to rise if we break all the seals or whatever.

C: Sam doesn't seem to like, step it up at all.

G: Yeah. And also like, prior to that, he already was like, having conversations with Ruby about like, upping his, you know, skills. And also, like, he did spend all of those months hunting down Lilith. Like that's the reason why he got intimately involved with Ruby because of that journey of getting to Lilith.

C: Okay, like, Season 3, it was like, the war on the demons 'cause like, they all got released from the gate, yada-ya. That is sort of dropped in Season 4, but it's like, "All the demons coming out of the gate is what makes it so that they're speeding along the Apocalypse better." So I guess it could just be a continuation of the war of Season 3.

G: I think what happened there is like, there was like, war between those demons, and then Lilith came on top. So like, that was dropped because now it's like, "Oh, we have one specific target now. All of those demons have coalesced." Is that the term? Coalesced means go together, right? [C: Yeah.] They coalesce into being like, under Lilith, right?

C: Yeah. And then I mean, she engineered the Dean going to Hell thing so that the first seal could be broken so that the Apocalypse could happen. Yeah, so I guess it is all sort of the same thing, so it doesn't really mean that much that Sam didn't step it up after 4.02.

G: But I don't think Sam knew that Dean was sent to Hell to start the Apocky-lypse.

C: That's true. Sam doesn't know at the end of this episode, either.

G: Yeah, I don't think so.

C: Sam ends up knowing what the first seal is at some point, right? Does he?

G: I actually don't know. I don't remember. I don't remember

C: Okay.

G: Yeah.

G: As they come in, Sam opens the lights, and Uriel and Cas is there, and the way they are positioned is. [C: Mm-hm.] Like, Cas is kind of like the attack dog on the side that's like, a little bit on the back, facing away from them.

C: He's quite far on the back.

G: Yeah, far on the back, facing away from them, even. Uriel is the one doing all the talking. Uriel says that "You are needed." And Dean gets upset with this, and Uriel starts doing the whole, like, "Okay, mind your tone with me." He acts pretty much the same way he has acted in the past, although I do feel like now, he is acting with more amusement than anything regarding Dean. Like, I feel like in the past, it's kind of like, when Dean talks like this, he was kind of like, a bit more offended, like, genuinely. And then, as the time progressed- like, we see this with Anna, too. With the Anna eps too. - Like, he's kind of just like, "Huh! Look at you. Like, this guy thinks he can talk to me like this." Sam explains that they just got back from Pamela's funeral, and Dean's like, "Yeah, Pamela. You remember her?" And then he starts talking to Cas directly. He goes, "You remember her Cas, right? You burnt her eyes out." Yeah, he says, "She died trying to save one of your precious seals, so maybe stop pushing us around all the time." Uriel says, "We rescue out of Hell for a purpose," which, I mean, Dean's contemplating on this. And again, as we've said, this episode interfaces with that. But, man. Horrible! At some point, Cas goes, "Dean, we know this is difficult to understand," and Uriel goes, "And we..." and like, gives a pointed look at Cas and faces back at Dean, and goes, "don't care." And like, the look that is happening in this situation is like, Cas is looking at Dean, and then as Uriel says this, just looks back ahead, away from Dean.

C: He turns around so like, he's like, fully in profile, and sort of tilts his head up, like he's trying to make himself into a statue.

G: [laughs] Exactly. And Dean notices this, and we linger on Dean noticing it. 'Cause Uriel has said before that like, "See, he has this weakness. He likes you. The reason why I'm here instead of Cas is because," like, "Upstairs don't want him talking to you directly anymore because he's fond of you in some way." But like, this is, I think, the first evidence we see of it being true to Dean. "Oh, yeah, like, the reason why they're doing this whole bit where Uriel is doing the talking and Cas is just standing there and Uriel stopping Cas from saying this is because Cas likes me," which does massively inform his decision to talk to Cas later by himself, I think. Uriel says that seven angels have been murdered from their garrison, him and Cas. Last one killed tonight! They think it's demons. Sam is like, "If a demon can kill angels, how the hell are we supposed to fight it?" And Uriel's like, "Oh, that's not what we need. We just need to find who it is." And Cas starts to move forward and starts talking. He says, "We don't need to hunt down a demon. We already have a demon. Alastair. We just need him to speak."

C: As he's doing this, he's sort of like- he's trying to keep a very open expression and like, make eye contact as he like, sort of leads up to what they're gonna ask of Dean. And that, coupled with the "We know this is hard to understand" thing is nice. Like, he's like, been observing, and he's like, I'm gonna try to take like, the "human" stance, the, whatever the "making Dean trust me" stance to do this.

G: Dean makes a comment that like, "Oh, it's it's going to be difficult to make Alastair talk 'cause that guy's like, a back black belter in torture."

C: Have we already talked about how it's like, it is actually weird how fast Supernatural jumps to torture?

G: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

C: Like, it's like, "He won't talk? Okay. Well, I know what the only logical next step is." I don't know. I mean, it's a common trope in like, all media forever and ever, but, like, you know, like, confessions extracted under torture are not reliable, etc etc but Supernatural really likes to legitimize it as the only way to get monsters to talk.

G: Yeah. And Uriel says, "Yeah, and that's why we have come to his student. And you happen to be the most qualified interrogator we've got." And throughout this scene, we don't see like, from here onward until the very end when Dean gets teleported out, we don't see Sam at all, and it does frustrate me. The reveal that's happening here is that they're asking Dean to torture Alastair 'cause Alastairis like, the head torturer of Hell or whatever, and he taught Dean to do it. I understand that this is like, important to Dean's journey or whatever, but I feel like it's also pretty important [overlapping] to Sam's. Later, he makes the argument that, like, Dean, is not strong enough to do this, and I feel like if we are able to glean in this scene that like, it's because Sam understands the implication of like, "This is the guy who tortured Dean and taught him to torture, so like, surely, this isn't just like, 'I'm torturing a demon.' This is like, a personal thing, and he won't be able to do it because it's a personal thing," I feel like that would inform Sam's words more or whatever. [C: Yeah.] For an episode that is like, big on the Sam reveals, we get nothing of Sam. But like, it's fine, because we also barely get anything of Dean, even though it's big on the Dean reveals. Again, like, this is not about them. This is not an about them episode. But I wish in this scene, just one shot. Just one shot of Sam. Cas starts doing the convincing. "You're our best hope." And Dean goes, "Nope, you can't ask me to do this, Cas." Not this.

C: Dean loves to make it personal.

G: Yeah, he does. I mean, when's the first time he said "Cas" to Cas face? Have we had that conversation?

C: I remember it was during a time when we were really angry at Dean so we couldn't appreciate it properly.

G: No no no, that's different. That's him saying that to Sam. Saying like, "But Cas said that you're doing something evil" or whatever in "Metamorphosis." But like, Cas's face, is this the first time?

C: Uh, I can check. Yeah, this is Dean's- Well, Dean's first "Cas" was earlier when he was like, "You burned Pamela's eyes out, remember?" [G: Yeah.] And Sam calls Cas "Cas" to his face earlier than Dean does!

G: When this scene was happening, I did keep thinking like- 'cause, like, the first "Cas," the "Oh, Pamela. You burned her eyes out. Remember?" is before the "Dean, I know this is difficult for you" or whatever part, which is the part where Dean is like, "Oh, something's happening to Cas." I don't know. He starts doubling down on it like after that part. He just does it a lot this episode. I don't know. I think about this thought I had quite a while back, where like, throughout a lot of the times Dean has made a plea to Cas over anything, it's always like a "Because it's me!" He does it Season 8 with the "Goodbye Stranger" scene. Like, he goes, "Cas, it's me." Like, that's the plea. "I know you're in there. I know you can hear me. It's me." And it's like, no other argument is made other than "It's me, Cas. When the angel tablet thing fell through and Dean is mad at Cas for it, and he goes like, "Oh, you didn't trust me!" And then he repeats it. He goes, "You didn't trust me." So like, the whole point of the "Oh, you ran away," the mad part isn't even that he lost the actual tablet. It's that he didn't trust Dean specifically. In like, "The Man Who Would be King," he goes, "I'm asking you not to. Just 'cause." And like, the implication there is like, "Because I'm the one asking, and because I'm asking you to." Like, "I'm just saying it, which is what should make you not do it." I don't wanna make it seem like this is a conniving thing for Dean. But I do think, as you said, that he thinks of the people he loves, people he thinks is important to him as like, responsibilities. And part of that is like, also thinking that their responsibility in the relationship is to like, follow Dean in some way, you know? [C: Mm-hm.] For Sam, we see this in that, "Oh, but like, you shouldn't drink demon blood or whatever. You shouldn't go be with Ruby. Because I think it's a bad idea. Yeah, maybe I don't have like, the data to back it up. But like, I think, and therefore you should." With Cas, the moment he realized that Cas cares for him, that becomes the same argument with him, too. "You care about me, and I think, and therefore you should." And I feel a little bit like this is the moment he realizes that this is something happening.

C: That he can use.

G: That he can tell Cas, like, "But it's me. And I'm telling you this."

C: Yeah, I don't really see that, but I like the reading. I don't really see it. I feel like it's too early [G: Yeah.] for him to think that way. I think, right now, he's just straight up angry and scared.

G: In this post that I made about it that I'm currently referencing- I'll probably reblog it- I say that like, in "Lucifer Rising," the last ep of the season, like, Dean argues to Cas, like, "No, we need to save the world. If there's anything to die for, it's this. Saving the world." And Cas is still like, "No no no no no no." The moment he decides to turn around is when Dean goes, "We're done. [C: Hm.] Don't talk to me. We're done." Yeah, he does like Dean. And to Dean, it's like, "Oh, the core of the relationship is that Cas likes me and will do things for me because of that. Because I am the one asking." Again, like, the tag I left on this post is "this is not deancrit." [C laughs] I don't think this is a bad thing. I think it's just like, at the back of Dean's head, this is one of the thought processes that informs his decisions moving forward in this show.

Uriel says, "Who says anything about asking?" Zaps Dean away. And this is the only time we pan to Sam's face.

C: Who gives the most overacted "Damn it!" I've ever heard.

G: Yeah. [dramatically] "Damn it!" Good for him.

C: So we cut to some like, creepy old building where they're keeping Alastair. He's like, chained up in a devil's trap and all that shit. Dean and Cas are watching him through the door. Dean just is not having it. He is trying to head out. As he walks past Uriel, Uriel stops him, and he says, "Angels are dying, boy." I love the way Uriel calls Dean "boy." Like, he really does think that he's superior to all humans. And he's right. [G laughs] Dean replies with, "Everybody's dying these days," which, you know, continuation of earlier. He says, like, "You know, I get that you can make me do whatevs, but like, you cannot make me do this." You know, Cas tells him that it's too much to ask, but like, "We have to ask it." And then, like, Dean, sort of- he makes some calculations, I think. And then he says that he wants to talk to Cas alone. And, I mean, currently, it's like, "He's the weak point. I can get him to like, let me go, or whatever." I think later in the conversation, it becomes more of like a, "I trust Cas to be the one to tell me how necessary this really is." And I'm not entirely sure when it switches, but, interesting.

G: I do find also that the moment like, Uriel leaves, Dean starts joking. Like, I mean, it's still a serious conversation, but he goes back to his usual Dean banter.

C: I mean, he jokes about the donuts while Uriel's leaving, so I don't think it's just that.

G: Yeah, but that's a different tone. You know what I mean? Like, he's saying it's spitefully to Uriel. The moment he goes to Cas, it becomes a bit more friendlier, I suppose.

C: So Uriel says, "I think I'll go seek revelation," [G: Fun!] which is a great way to refer to like, listening in on angel radio or whatever. He's looking for further orders. And yeah, Dean says, "Well, get some donuts while you're out." You know, Uriel laughs, and he says, "This one just won't quit, will he? I think I'm starting to like you, boy." Which is fun. Like, he likes how predictable Dean is is what it is, and that's fun. I enjoy the way that familiarity can breed fondness, even if it's like, begrudging or like, mostly tinged with annoyance. I'm just sad that Uriel dies this episode. I want him back.

G: I do too.

C: They bring so many people back, right? But like, he doesn't ever?

G: Do they bring angels back other than Cas?

C: Gabriel- Does Gabriel not die and then come back or something?

G: Oh yeah, Gabriel comes back. "I need you!" What the fuck? [both laugh] No, I already said my Sabriel piece in "Tall Tales," and I was allegedly quite nice about it, so I'm not going to taint that experience. [C laughs]

C: Right, when Uriel disappears, Dean makes some joke about how "You guys don't walk enough. You're gonna get flabby." Cas doesn't laugh, and Dean's like, "You know, I'm starting to think Junkless has a better sense of humor than you." Maybe he didn't laugh because you're not funny.

G: You're unfunny. You're not funny.

C: Like, have we considered it? Also, like, just Uriel is called Junkless? Like, he thinks all other angels are fucking and sucking; it's just Uriel who's not? [G laughs] Like, what's the deal with that? Yeah, okay. And then we get, you know, the most important line that's ever happened all of Supernatural, which is, "Uriel is the funniest angel in the garrison. Ask anyone."

G: Wonderful.

C: He literally is the funniest angel in the garrison. But like, everyone in the garrison is dead [G laughs], so I guess it's not that much of a contest.

G: Yeah, it's Cas or Uriel, and you know, Cas pretty killjoy.

C: Not funny.

G: Just like Sam Winchester. He does get funnier in the later seasons, I feel. [C: Yeah.] He develops a sense of humor that is so endearing.

C: Yeah, I mean, he learns how to be funny from Dean. It's just that like, because he's the one delivering the jokes, like, it's funny. And also because he's not misogynistic.

G: He also is like - I mean, I don't wanna be like, "Oh, Cas just like, funny in that he's not intentionally funny." I do think he's intentionally funny sometimes, but like, a lot of the- you know, like, when he goes in to cut off Pestilence's hand or something, and they were like, "How'd you get here?" and he goes, [seriously] "I took the bus." [C laughs] Like, you know, that's like- he's just saying a fact. Like, he literally just took the bus, though, for fucking real. [C: Mm-hm.] Yeah, stuff like that. I do think his humor is very deadpan in a way. Aw, I love Cas! He does get funnier later.

C: So Dean, like, sort of does something with his face to like, switch into "real talk" mode, and then he walks closer to Cas, and he's like, "What's going on, Cas? Since when does Uriel put a leash on you?" I feel like, yeah, the first "What's going on, Cas?" sort of seems like he does sort of care and is sort of concerned. But then the second sentence, sort of, I feel like, solidifies it as like, he's trying to separate the two of them, put an obstacle between the two of them so that Cas is more willing to let Dean go.

G: Again, I'm sure Dean is subconsciously thinking this, but I don't think it's like, the conscious thought. I mean, it's true, but like, it's not a conscious thought. I think it's more of like, he does genuinely believe that, like, he can change Cas's mind if it was just Cas here or if it was Cas who is like, doing the negotiations with Dean, it would be easier. So like, this question legitimately is like, "Why is Uriel the one talking to me? It should be you," and like, you know, the implied thought is "Because I'm sure you'll listen to me, probably, more than Uriel will."

C: Cas says, "My superiors have begun to question my sympathies." Who are Cas's superiors? What is the chain of command?

G: I actually don't know.

C: 'Cause like, Anna was his boss, but like, she's gone. Who replaced her?

G: I think Cas replaced her. Cas is now the head of the garrison.

C: Okay. So like-

G: Who was before Anna? Who was like, on top of Anna before? I don't know, actually. So like, the general Heaven command, maybe? I don't know.

C: Dean asks, "Your sympathies?" And Cas says, "I was getting too close to the humans in my charge. You." Crazy line! Crazy line.

G: Because the way this is delivered, he's looking at Dean directly.

C: And there's not a pause between "charge" and "you," like, besides, the amount of pause that you need for just a regular sentence. [G: No, yeah.] Like, he's not emphasizing it, and he's not holding it back, or something. [G: Yeah.] I don't know. It just feels so much about- it feels like how you can't feel shame for something that you don't have a name for yet

G: Exactly. This is just a statement of fact. It's not like, a reveal of emotion. Like, you know, to Cas, this is like, it's not something he is ashamed of. It's just, "Oh, and that could be dangerous, because it can lead to doubt." And like, you know, it's delivered in such a straightforward way. It's delivered in a way that is so "I'm just telling you, it's a statement. It's a fact."

C: Dean does seem a bit taken aback by this, though.

G: Yeah. Do you think Dean understands that like, this is like, unique to Cas? I mean, 'cause like, the only three angels we've met at this point is Cas, Uriel, and Anna. Anna seems-

C: Anna wanted to fuck him so bad.

G: Yeah, Anna wanted to fuck him so bad. Uriel's an asshole to him. And Cas is, like, seems like a reasonable guy sometimes, so like, maybe Dean doesn't really comprehend that, like, the way Cas is interacting with him and talking to him is like, weird. Like, this is weird for an angel to do with a human.

C: Right. But yeah, but now that, like, his superiors are being like, "Cas, you're being like, way too weird," this is when Dean's like, "Oh. This is different."

G: Yeah. Also, I mentioned looking straight ahead because the rest of this line is, "I was getting too close to the humans in my charge. You. They feel I've begun to express emotion. The doorways to doubt." And then he turns and like, looks away, in kind of like a, as you said earlier, like, looking away, and then like, holding your chin up high, kind of like you're making yourself into a statue. He goes, "This can impair my judgment." I don't know. It gets to me that him saying that "Oh, this can impair my judgment" and then turning away in that moment to look away from Dean and go back to his like, stoic self that is like, so closed off, almost, is like, "Oh, and now, what's happening right now is not impairing my judgment at all. Like, telling you this, not impairing my judgment at all. This, having this conversation, not impairing my judgment at all!" You know, because, like that's kind of like, the implication of the looking away to me.

C: Yeah, "I'm just telling you this 'cause you're asking. It doesn't mean anything for me."

G: Yeah. Again, he treats it like a statement of fact and not a reveal of emotion. Oh, Cas. [laughs] Your judgment will be so impaired, buddy.

C: For a man in jeans. I mean, Dean is sort of aware- I like that, you know, he says, that just emotions themselves are the doorways to doubt. That's just the issue right away. And like, we already knew that in 4.10 'cause, like, Anna said that in Heaven they can't have feelings, and they like, have to be cold and like a marble statue and have only obedience, blah blah blah blah. But like, it's nice to have that continued here. And okay, another thing that Anna said in 4.10, that's like, so crazy, now I think about it, is that she said, that "We have to take that"--like, the orders that they get and stuff from God--"We have to take it on faith, which we're killed if we don't have." So like, the whole like, "You're getting too close to Dean, get away" stuff, that's like, step one of the like, "And then if you get to this point, we're just gonna kill you."

G: Yeah!

C: Yeah. So, as you said, Cas turns away again into his marble statue pose. Dean, he like, circles around to talk to Cas, and you think that it's like-

G: To make Cas look at him? Yeah.

C: - to make Cas look in his eyes again, but like, he doesn't. He continues through the circle. And now they're standing so that Dean's looking at the door, his back to Cas-

G: And like, his shoulder, yeah.

C: - yeah, is like, a 90 degree angle away. So they're both like, looking like, like, what? Like, 270 degrees away from each other, basically?

G: Yeah. And Cas is by Dean's shoulder, like, a blurred-out vision on his shoulder. Aww! [laughs] What if the angel on your shoulder is telling you to torture some guy? [both laugh] It's horrible!

C: Dean says, like, "Tell Uriel or whoever, you do not want me doing this, trust me." And Cas says like, "No, we don't want it, but I've been told that we need it." Agh. He's been told. [G: Yeah.] So like, he doesn't even know. But like, Dean is still starting to get convinced just by that. Just by Cas being told. But also, I guess there is interpretation that he kind of also wants to do the torture. Like, he doesn't, but he also does. [G: Yeah.] He tells Alastair later that he's been dreaming of it, so I think that's part of what's going on here, too.

G: I mean, do you think that's true? Or [laughs] is that just torture talk.

C: I don't know. I mean, he does get creative with it. That does imply some forethought.

G: He does say that like, when he was in Hell, he liked it. Like, he liked- yeah. And I guess here, it's like, he hates that he likes it. Like, "If you put me in there, and then I realize that like, I still do like it, I think that's going to be real bad for everyone!"

C: Yeah, he says that if, like, he opens that door and walks through it, like, "You will not like what walks back out." And then Cas says, like, you know, crazy line. Crazy line. "For what it's worth, I would give anything not to have you do this." You just met the man! What does that mean?

G: Cas is like, so taken by Dean.

C: Yeah. And I guess it's like, his default state in heaven, like, while he's- you know, post-all his mind wipes and stuff - is just like, no emotion. Even if this is like, not that much emotion, it's like, the only one he has, so.

G: I mean, also, there may be some form of protectiveness over Dean. 'Cause that is a guy he raised out of perdition, you know? So it's like, "I went through all that trouble to get that guy out of there, and what? We're just going to break him."

C: Right. And also he said that, like, what his garrison did, like, laying siege to Hell, was to prevent Dean from breaking the first seal, so like, he probably spent like, months or whatever, fighting, just thinking like, "And I really don't want Dean to torture people." so [G: Yeah.] it probably does feel cognitively dissonant to be like, "And now we're telling him to torture people? I spent so long trying to get him to not torture people!"

So yeah, Dean closes his eyes, and then we cut to inside the room, 'cause it's torture time.

G: Yeah. They really will just do torture in Supernatural.

C: [laughs] They really will.

G: So we enter the room. Dean is wheeling in a cart. And Alastair is still there, tied up, chained up onto the whatever that thing is. As Dean is walking, he starts singing a song, I think, called "cheek to cheek," and, ohh. That like, singing really brings out like, something in me. Like, I'm like, "Yeah, that's real bad!" [laughs] And so, yeah, I quite like it. I quite like it. He actually does like, deliver a bit of like, some lines later in a sing-songy manner, too, and like, I think it really adds to the vibe! Takes off the cloth off the cart, and it's a bunch of like, rusty torture materials. [C laughs] And I was like, "Dude. Yeah, you're gonna torture this guy. And then what? You need to get a tetanus shot? [C laughing] You're gonna die of tetanus?" And he literally did. He literally did fucking die of tetanus.

C: Yeah, no, that wasn't because of the rusty nail in that barn. That was just like, the Season 4 shit. Yeah, Cas had been healing him like, all the time because of all the tetanus that he was getting from like, this episode, and then finally, like, after Cas finally, like, fully, truly kicked it, like, it's over for Dean. The tetanus finally got to him.

G: Yeah. It was a ticking time bomb. Like, Dean was gonna fall out of tetanus at some point, [C laughs] and he did! And Alastair, you know, is laughing, giggling, twirling his hair if he was able to reach it. He goes, "Oh, sorry! This is very serious, like, very emotional for you and everything. Yeah. But, like, God, are they serious? Did they really send you to torture me?" And yeah, Dean starts the whole like, "Tell me the name. Tell me who's killing the angels." And Alastair says, "You think I'll see all your scary toys and spill my guts?" And Dean goes, "Oh, you'll spill your guts one way or another." Which, I remember this line. He goes, "I just didn't want to ruin my shoes." I remember this line. I mean, again, I remember this episode so well. It's not even an episode I frequently rewatch, but yeah. I don't know. Dean just starts torturing the guy. I don't know what to tell you.

C: Yeah. There's nothing particularly important. It isn't even like, worse than anything else we've seen on this show, but like, we're just supposed to think it's worse.

G: Yeah, I do like the line where Alastair says like, "Oh, you think you can like, get to me? You left part of yourself back in the pit." And then he goes, "Let's see if we can get the two of you back together again, shall we?" Implying that, like, what he left in the pit was like, the part of him that was like,the torture. And now, like, in this scene, we're gonna get that Dean back. The connotation of like, the words, "You left part of yourself back in the pit," like, Sam used it later. "He came back like, missing," or something. As Dean is like, preparing his stuff, Alastair drops that like, he also tortured John, which Dean does like, hear, and it does, I don't know, spark some interest in him.

C: Right. 'Cause [laughs] John escaped and went to Heaven at the end of Season 2. Remember?

G: What the fuck, even? [C laughing] What a weirdass season. But that scene was so- And they the, like, benevolent smile bullshit?

C: Yeah. Hilarious. Right, while we were on hiatus and doing RubbishPod, Danica did ask me like, "What's the like, ratio of like, humans to like, demons torturing people in Hell?" Like, there's no way that there's enough like, humans in there for every demon to like, get a go.

G: I mean, some of them are crossroads.

C: Some of them are crossroads. Yeah, okay, but like, how many? What is the like, job allocation in Hell? Like, what percentage of the demons are primarily doing torturing?

G: I mean, also, like, there's not gonna be a lot of crossroads demons, I feel like. [C: Yeah.] I feel like they're not super in demand. It's not a rising industry.

C: Yeah. I guess, like, some of them go on Earth and possess people and like, kill people for funsies, but like, it seems like Hell doesn't like them to get back up there, because, like, you know, Meg's always been like, "It's such a pain like, when I get exorcised to like, claw my way back up to Earth." Because isn't it like, the ratio of like, dead people to alive people is about like, 14 to 1 or whatever, right? And I'm assuming most people break. Like, I don't think that there are people who like, never, ever break.

G: I mean, some people also go to Heaven.

C: Yeah, sure, but I'm just saying that overall, like, I'm saying, like, there's probably like, 14 times more demons than like, humans in Hell. Approximately. [G: Yeah.] Is it just like, 14 demons to one person, and they like, only have to do a torture session like, biweekly? [G laughs]

G: They do rotations? [laughs] Bro.

C: Are they a team? Yeah. Do some of the torturers there go, "Oh, I'll let you practice torture on me, bro." Like, what's the- [laughs] What's the deal there?

G: You know, some of these- they're just TAs. [laughs] Like-

C: I mean, Dean was a TA.

G: Dean was literally Alastair's TA. [C: Yeah.] That's actually a very interesting question. I don't know. The Hell economy is in shambles. [C laughs] Unemployment is at a massive high.

C: RIP. Very sad that Dean couldn't just be one of the unemployed people down there. Like, those people are having a great time. Like, they're not being tortured. They're not torturing.

G: They have demonic powers.

C: Yeah, they're probably just like, playing cards with each other. Good for them.

C: We cut to the motel room in Cheyenne. We see Ruby again! Hi, Ruby! It's been a while. [laughs] Genevieve Cortese is still not a good actress. [both laugh] But it's fine.

G: She literally isn't, though! But, you know, we live, we laugh, we love.

C: Yeah. You know, she doesn't really want to be here because there's angels around, and she also doesn't see why Sam needs to find Dean because, you know, it seems like it's a good plan, everything's gonna work out. And Sam says he can't do it, and Ruby says, "Look, I get it. You don't want him going all torture master again." [laughs] And Sam says, "No, I mean, he can't do it. He can't get the job done." So funny for that. I do like, the way that Sam's rate of like, progression into like, arrogance or whatever is like, faster than what Ruby anticipates. Like, she's still like, "Okay. And you're gonna be nice. You're gonna be like this." And Sam's like, "No, I'm past that now." He says that something happened to Dean in Hell, and he's not what he used to be, he's not strong enough.

G: Which is our first verbal confirmation of all the things that Sam said in the siren ep and that Dean has been insecure about. It's true. He does think it

C: He does. Though I still don't know why he thinks it. I guess, more recently, Dean's been giving up. So to Alastair, the thing that Dean left behind was like, the torturer side of him. [G: Yeah.] Like, what does Sam think Dean has left behind? Like, his anger?

G: Probably like, his drive.

C: Those things can be the same thing. Ruby asks, "And you are?" And Sam says, "I will be."

We're back to, you know, Dean doing the torture shit. Alastair's just trying to provoke Dean, who hasn't started the torturing yet. And Alastair says that he was in charge of torturing John, and for a hundred years, each time, he would ask John, "If you become a torturer, I'll stop torturing you." But John said no every single time. I don't believe it. [G: You know what?] Like, I know that must be the case, because if John had given up, like, you know, that would have been the righteous man breaking, and the first deal would have broken. But, like, I just- I don't believe it.

G: I think I do believe it because I do think John Winchester thinks himself a good man.

C: To be above that, yeah.

G: I mean, the only reason why he was able to reason out like, treating Sam and Dean the way he did it is because "It's for a greater good," like, "I'm being a hero by doing this." Like, "My kids suffering because I can't be there is actually me suffering because I can't be there for them [C: Mm.], which makes me a hero, 'cause I'm doing it to save the world," you know. [C: Right.] And so I think this does fly for John Winchester's characterization to like, hold out and be like, "Oh, but I'm the one suffering, and I am able to hold out that suffering" because I feel like that's the same reasoning he has used for Sam and Dean, even though I would argue and everyone would agree that, you know, Sam and Dean suffered more in those situations.

C: Alright. I can see that. Yeah, Alastair gives the iconic "Daddy's little girl, he broke in 30."

G: Yeah, just like us, except we broke in like, 29 or something.

C: What are we talking about?

G: Do people still- We used to do two episodes per week, and then by like, Episode 29, we quit that. [C: Oh.] And I said in the podcast like, "I wanted us to quit in 30, because, like, just like Dean Winchester. But yeah, alas! We have to do it now."

C: Sad.

G: Devastating.

C: Yeah, and Alastair calls Dean "Not the man your daddy wanted you to be," which Dan echoes at the end. And then Dean, you know, picks up some holy water. Alastair is not impressed, but then Dean says that in Hell, he dreamed, and over and over he dreamt of being able to torture Alastair, and therefore he has a few ideas. And he gets a needle, and he fills it up with holy water, and then he walks over, and then we cut to outside where Cas is listening in, and Alastair is screaming.

G: Yeah, I do like the part that, like, you know, Alastair's just being like, "Oh, holy water. Come on, Dean." But when Dean holds up that syringe, he does actually look a bit like, scared. [C: Mm.] Like, yeah, this is creative of Dean to do, I guess. Like, they didn't do it in Hell. [laughing] Also, I'm just so- I mean, every time it happens in Supernatural, I do have a bit of a laugh, but like, the fact that they would just visualize holy water as like, anything. Anything- any like, jug of water, any tank of water with a rosary in it [both laugh], and like, "Go, girl!" I think you'd legitimately need a priest to bless that thing. [C laughs]

C: I'm sure that angels can do it.

G: That's true. Maybe so. Why are the angels Catholic, though? Like, why are they using a rosary?

C: I don't know.

G: Is a rosary a Catholic thing? I feel like it is.

C: I think so.

G: Yeah, because, like, isn't the whole point of like, Protestantism they don't do saints? I mean, not the whole point. But they don't do saints in that thing, so I assume they don't do Mama Mary. [typing] "Rosary... is it Catholic?"

C: Is holy water Catholic.

G: No, it's like, a different process for every- I mean, you can have, like, holy water, for literally, like, every religion. Like, it's just holy water. [C: Okay.] But, like, Catholic holy water specifically needs to be blessed by a priest. Okay. So rosary is Catholic. I'm gonna look up [typing] "holy water... do Protestants do that shit." [C laughs] Okay, they don't do holy water.

C: Okay, so it is all Catholicism.

G: Oh, the like, when you enter a church, you dip your hand in the holy water, and you do the sign of the cross, that's a Catholic thing also, apparently. I mean, that makes sense. The sign of the cross is Catholic.

C: Yeah, the sign of the cross is a Catholic thing. I mean, is it just Catholic because only Catholics do exorcisms?

G: Is that true?

C: Yeah, I feel like- I don't think the demons are very big in Protestantism, but also, like, I literally know nothing due to the atheism, so, [laughs] I don't know.

G: Okay, so Anglicans and Episcopal church, they don't usually use- like, they don't use the term "holy water," but they do use some kind of water for baptism.

C: Okay.

G: Dean tortures Alastair some more. There's a line, where, after like, Dean pulls out the needle, like, Alastair goes, "Go directly to Hell, do not pass Go, do not collect $200," and the thing is, if this is was literally anyone else, like, if this was any other demon saying this, I'll be like, "That's so corny. I don't think you should be speaking like that." Whatever whatever. But because it's Alastair, I'm like, "It's fine." The line delivery is so good, like, it just heavy lifts everything. And as he said, like, this scenes, not much really happens in them. Like, there's some reveals, but the reveal is actually kind of like, compressed towards the end, so not much is happening in the middle parts, but it's still very- while you're watching it, it's still very interesting because of the acting.

G: Back in the motel room, Ruby kind of like, burns down this map while doing a little chant. Which is pretty cool.

C: Yeah, it's fun when she gets to be a witch. [G: Yeah.] And her eyes turn black.

G: What happens is it burns down the entire thing and leaves a little piece of it, and she goes, "Yeah, that's where Dean is." And as Sam looks at this, he turns to Ruby and goes, "Ruby, it's been weeks. I need it."

C: How has it been weeks? Like, he could throw Alastair in 4.15. Like, I thought that they were like, meeting up again since "Criss Angel." Have they been meeting up and him not drinking her blood?

G: Maybe. Or like, maybe it's been a while since they have met up. When was "Criss Angel"?

C: That's true. "Criss Angel" was- was it like, 4.13? No, that was "After School-" 4.12. 4.12.

G: So yeah.

C: Yeah. And right, he was calling Ruby in 4.14, but they didn't actually meet up. So yeah, perhaps it has been a while.

G: Ruby says, "You don't seem too happy about it." Is that an odd thing to say? I don't know. Never drank blood, so I don't know. [both laugh]

C: Right, are you saying- Does it seem like she's like, offended by it?

G: Yeah, is it- What's that supposed to mean?

C: I mean, he doesn't seem too happy about it. [laughs]

G: It's just an observational thing. [laughs] Okay.

C: I think- I don't know. I think she's still like, trying to get him to get over like, the qualms that he has around the blood drinking.

G: Okay, yeah.

C: Also- I don't know. Like, the blood-drinking is mixed with sex, and like, I'm not entirely sure what the sex means to either of them, because, like, I feel- it's mostly like, for Ruby, I think it definitely started as just, "It's easier to manipulate him now," but like, I don't know if if it also like, matters to her emotionally. I also don't know if it matters to Sam emotionally, or if he's just doing it as a way to like, somehow make the blood drinking seem less weird to himself. So like, there could be a reason to feel offended if you're equating the two- like, like, blood drinking with having sex.

G: But like, are they having sex?

C: I mean she straddles him and then kisses him. I don't know if they have sex after that.

G: Yeah. But like, the act is definitely portrayed as-

C: Sexual.

G: Sexual. Yeah, okay. Sam just goes like, "I mean, I don't- You think I wanna do this? This is the last thing I- But I need to be strong." Blah blah blah.

C: I mean, it is interesting how Sam and Dean are both like, leaning into their "dark side" and like, doing something that they like, don't want to do but have to in order to get this information from Alastair. And I guess, like, both of their sets of actions are condemned by the narrative, at least, so at least that's nice.

G: Is it?

C: I think so.

G: The torture?

C: I mean, Anna comes in, and she's like, "This is terrible, and God doesn't want this" for the torturing.

G: Yeah, but like, with Dean, I feel it's more like, "Doesn't want this because it'll be a boo-boo for him! [C laughs] Like, he'll be sad about it!" You know?

C: Well, she also says, "It'll ruin the one real weapon you have," [G: Yeah.] which makes it sound like there's like, a- Oh, okay! You thought that that just meant like, emotional hurt? Oh, I fully thought it was like, "Dean needs to remain morally pure to be Michael's vessel" or some shit. But no, you're right, it probably is just like, "His feelings will be hurt!"

G: [laughs] Yeah. Which is completely different from, you know. Like, for Dean, it's like- it's almost almost like, a passive kind of thing, versus Sam's-

C: Right, even though he's fully, actively doing torture? Like, both of them are being the exact same amount of active. But yeah, you're right. It's like, "Don't do this to Dean" like he's not making the choice himself, which he is. And for Sam, it's like, "How dare he make this choice that he was manipulated into by Ruby a while ago also." So yeah. Yeah, you're right.

G: Ruby straddles his like, lap, and then they kiss, and then Ruby brings out the knife.

C: Yeah, she starts with like, "It's okay, Sammy, you can have it." Which yeah, I really liked that she calls him "Sammy." It's a fun Ruby thing.

G: She slices like, a little bit of her arm, and then Sam starts [laughs] just slurping that shit. [C: Yeah.] He's slurping it. And this whole time, like, we go to Ruby's face, and she has, like, a sick and twisted smile on her face. [both laugh] And she's like, caressing Sam's hair and going, "It's okay. Sam." [C: Yeah.] Like, literally her smile is like, that "I'm a sicko."

C: [laughing] Yeah.

G: Like, whatever that is.

C: Yeah, yeah, the- what is it? "I'm a sick bitch, I like freak sex."

G: I don't know. I am inclined to say it's like, overacted, but like, I don't know. Maybe I'm just being- like, maybe she's just not directed well. I don't know!

C: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like there's something to discuss that like, this is the manner by which Sam drinks the blood, but I don't know what to say. I'm sure- I don't know. I'm sure there's a bunch of psychosexual literature out there I could reference if I bothered to read it. Does it feel like, motherly?

G: I think because the vibe that Ruby is putting out is like, comforting, that is like, a way to see it.

C: 'Cause doesn't Mary stroke his hair in a similar fashion, in like-

G: When?

C: - "When the Levee Breaks"?

G: Oh, like, in his like, fucking hallucinations or whatever.

C: Yeah.

G: I forget. I'm not sure. I think there is something to be said about how Ruby like, paints this as like, she's trying to comfort Sam. [C: Yeah.] 'Cause the way the "But it's okay. It's okay, Sammy, you can have it," is kind of like a "This is something I can restrict." Like, "This is something I can not give you. But don't worry. I always will." You know, that's kind of like, the implication here with the "It's okay, it's okay." And yeah, like, oof! Poor Sam. [laughs]

C: Yeah. Sorry, Sam.

G: I don't know. It's a lot. It's a lot.

We go back to the torture room. Dean holds up for Ruby's knife and ladles holy water onto it. Which is odd. Like that's a metal blade. [C laughs] I don't know what this is supposed to accomplish.

C: Yeah. Like, there's just gonna be like, a tiny little droplet?

G: I feel like that shit is like, hydrophobic. [laughs] What's happening here?

C: I don't know.

G: He goes to Alastair. Alastair's saying some shit, but you know. He just stabs the guy.

C: Yeah. They don't care about the vessels.

G: No, wait. How does this work?

C: No, exactly. Because the demon knife kills people.

G: So like, if you slooowly put that demon knife in, it won't kill the guy? Only when you do it fast?

C: Doesn't Alastair have some kind of an immunity to the demon knife in some way 'cause like, didn't they like, stab him in the shoulder with it in like, 4.09 and he was fine? And Cas stabs him with it again this time, and he's fine.

G: The implication with those is like, if it's in a non-lethal position.

C: Yeah, I don't think Dean stabs Alastair in a lethal position here. It's like, lower abdomen.

G: He stabs- I'm pretty sure that's where your intestines are. Like, your large intestine is in there somewhere.

C: Huh. Maybe.

G: But I guess you can survive an intestinal rupture for a while. But yeah. He stabs the guy. As this is happening, we see like, a pipe thing turn. What do you call this? What's that circular pipe?

C: A faucet?

G: Is it a faucet? It may or may not be a faucet. I don't know. Not- I don't know. What are the people who know what faucets are. Civil engineers?

C: Plumbers?

G: Plumbers! Yeah! Plumbers. I'm not a plumber, unfortunately.

C: Well, okay, so the point of the faucet is that it drips water onto the devil's trap, which causes it to break eventually. However, [laughs] Dean's been sloshing holy water all over the place. You told me that didn't erode any of the chalk? Also, Alastair's been spitting blood everywhere.

G: Yeah. The inside of that sigil would have been broken like, earlier. Also, like, the moment Dean, like, wheeled in that cart, the wheels go over the chalk. [C laughs] And like, my immediate thought was, "Dude, you're gonna break the sigil."

C: I don't know, man.

G: I'm pretty sure they could get like, a paintbrush and a can of paint. Cas, you got lazy? Is that what this is? [C laughs]

C: Step it up, dude.

G: We go to [C: Ah!] Cas in the fucking waiting area or whatever. Like, there's a light above him, and it starts flickering, and then it bursts, and Anna is behind him.

C: Yeah, also, the position he was waiting in, he's sort of like, braced over the table like he has both arms- hands on it. And it's like, the sounds of the torture really are affecting him. Like, he is upset or whatever. It's nice.

G: Yeah. I love the fucking halo thing, because, like, it is over Cas, but like, there's another one in front of it, so it looks like Cas’s halo is the one that's still up, and then, like, Anna’s is the one that bursts, which is pretty fun! Oh, I love you halo imagery. Anna's there. Cas goes, "Oh, Anna," like, before he turns around, which is pretty fun.

C: Yeah. He can sense her like, true form, or whatever. Like, they've known each other for thousands or millions of years.

G: Yeah, also, we just don't know what the fuck sensation is like for angels, you know. Can they see all around? 360 degree? You know. He turns around, looks at her, and remarks that she's still in the same vessel, even though it like, I don't know, probably exploded, destroyed. And Anna says, "Yeah, I guess I'm sentimental." And she goes, "I called in some old favors."

C: With who?

G: Who the fuck is giving her favors. And also, how do vessels work? What is this?

C: What favors give you this body back? Yeah, I don't know. Someone who was able to heal the ash pile that her vessel became?

G: This happens to Cas, too, and it's still the same question. Like, who the fuck brought Cas back? And the answer is God. So like, is Anna like- I don't know. Did God bring her back? What the- Is that the old favor?

C: I don't think that God's one of her old favors, because when she was two, she was screaming and crying about how he was gonna kill her. Also, [laughs] I'm pretty sure if she ran into God, she wouldn't be saying all this stuff about how God's abandoned them or whatever. [G: Yeah.] So like, a reaper, probably?

G: But like, a reaper is responsible for souls. Not bodies. [C: Yeah.] Although maybe a part of it is like, she has become so entrenched in her body that that's her now also.

C: Yeah, that they'd be able to construct it from her soul.

G: Yeah. It's not a vessel. It's a body now.

Cas is just going like, "Yeah, you shouldn't be here." Anna is asking about Uriel, whatever whatever. Anna asks, "Why are you letting Dean do this?" And Cas is like, "It's God's work." Anna goes like, "Oh, yeah, God is telling you to make Dean torture that guy?"

C: Well, she says specifically, "Torturing? That's God's work."

G: Oh yeah, that's a different-

C: - which makes it seem like she's against torture in general, but, like, I don't know if she is. I mean, we have no evidence that she's not against torturing in general, but like, the show is not against torturing in general. So.

G: Yeah. And then she goes, "Stop him, Cas. Before you ruin the one real weapon you have." Cas goes, "Who are we to question the will of God?" And Anna then reveals the "Yeah, but is it His will?" And Cas is like, "Yeah, I mean, where else would the orders come from?" "I don't know. Somebody else, but not God." [C: Yeah.] I did get jumpscared when they referred to God as "him." [C laughs] I was like, "Noooo! Oh, yeah, the- yeah, okay."

C: Yeah, I also got used to she/they God on Good Omens. That was nice.

G: Exactly. It was nice.

C: Yeah, I'm still so stuck on the Supernatural stance on torture thing. I think there's a post about it that I read that we'll just reblog 'cause I don't remember the details, but I think it was interesting. I think it's just the fact that, like, Dean does torture all the time, but they don't portray it as torture. They portray it as- I think the post says that a lot of what Dean does is just portrayed as a cop interrogation room scene, which the writers consider separate from torture, whereas, like, this is actually torture. And like, the ways that they make that distinction just, I don't know, show ideological messiness with the writers.

G: Yeah. I mean, Supernatural, first and foremost, as a show written by many people, so like, I don't know. Like, every single idea is interfaced with differently by every single person who writes for this show. So-

C: Yeah. I'm sure I could find a Ben Edlund episode where they torture like, pretty fast, though. [G: Sure.] Like, in "The Man Who Would be King," doesn't it open with like, Bobby and Dean, like, with a demon?

G: Torturing the demon, yeah.

C: Yeah. And that's like, okay.

G: Yeah, like, this is not like, ruining Dean's psyche or whatever.

C: Yeah. Interesting. Oh, also, when Cas asked, "Who are we to question the will of God?" the shot turns wider, and then we see that his hands are in his pockets! [G: Aww.] Which I think is so cute. He's had this body for like, a few weeks, and he's already developed nervous tics and defensive stances and all that shit. Good for him. Does Anna- does Anna meet Chuck, ever?

G: I don't think so.

C: Does she know about Chuck eventually? She ought to, right?

G: I don't think so. I don't know. I genuinely don't know.

C: 'Cause it's like, alright, like, currently, the Supernatural stance is like, "Oh, like, God is good, but like, Heaven is evil, like, maybe," but eventually, it takes it to like, "No, God also really fucking sucks." Yeah, Annacurrently still does have faith and God, just not in Heaven.

G: Yeah. And Uriel, I think, has a more reasonable belief in that, "Yeah Heaven is- God DGAF." which I think is what's happening.

C: Everything that Uriel says later is true-

G: Is completely true, yeah.

C: - and proven by the narrative later.

G: And he gets fucking killed for it! Like, okay! Slay, I suppose! [C laughs] Diva down!

C: [typing] I don't know.

G: [laughing] No, because I just saw it in the like, George Santos posts.

C: I think it's just a saying in ball culture, I think, but I don't know.

G: Yeah. Okay. Well, Anna tells Cas, "What you're feeling, it's called doubt." And then she goes to touch Cas's hand, and like, holds it. Like, not just touch it. Like, she's like, trying to grab it, kind of. She goes, "These orders are wrong, and you know it. But you can do the right thing. You're afraid, Cas. I was too. But together, we can still-" and that's like, what breaks Cas out of it. He goes, "Together?" And then he yanks his hand away and goes, "I'm nothing like you. You fell. Go." Yeah. Anna does.

C: I really like- okay, first off, like, "The father you love." What does love look like if you can't have feelings in Heaven? Like, I guess love is obedience?

G: Obey, I suppose. Yeah. Put your faith into blah blah blah.

C: But like, I feel like that's not what Anna's trying to say. Because I feel like Anna would not like, Anna means something else 'cause like, she understands love and all that shit because of her time as a human. I also love that she says, like, "You think he'd ask this of you?" Like, it's almost like she's framing it like, "He would ask you to do something that hurts you so much?" [G: Yeah.] Which, like, again, reiterates that this is like, personal for Cas, and that it emotionally hurts him to see Dean do this, which slaps. I'm so sad that we don't get Anna after Season 5 because she's so interesting. Like, okay, she got her Grace, and then she like, went off, right? We don't really know what her goals are, what she's been doing since. Okay, she came back because she wanted to protect Dean, and also because she thought that she could find an ally in Cas because she must be really lonely right now. She just keeps being lonely, right? She never gets followers or friends or anything.

G: Follower. [laughs] Just like on Instagram?

C: Yeah, just like on Instagram.

G: The three of them, Anna, Uriel, and Cas, they should have kept these three in some way.

C: Yeah.

G: Or I don't know, just kept them longer. For me, the person that interests me more is Uriel in the Uriel-Anna-Cas situation right now. Because, like, again, like, he's right! You know? [C: Yeah.] Like, he's right, and like, his reasoning of like, "Why are we supposed to bow down to the humans? Like, why are we inferior to them?" Like, I can see why he would think that. Obviously, like, Uriel, is portrayed in the show, as like, "He thinks he's better than humans," and the argument he's making is like, "They're not better than us." I think, like, later in the show, they have Lucifer make the argument, like, actually say the words like, "And God like, tried to make me bow down to the humans, and that's why I fell" or whatever. I don't know. I think that is a very interesting concept of like, "God has a new favorite show now," quite literally, "and we're just fodder for that show," quite literally. And yeah, I feel like Uriel can have a lot of interesting journeys upon discovering that he is, in fact, right.

C: That's true. And like, we need- I mean, we need both like, Anna and Uriel because they sort of provide these two distinct perspectives.

G: Opposite. Yeah, like, Anna thinks like, not that humanity is better, but like, you can learn something from them.

C: She thinks humanity's better.

G: Does she? She actually says that?

C: I mean, at least when Dean's asking her why she chose to fall like, she- I mean, I guess not better, but like, she'd rather be a human than an angel.

G: Yeah, like, she thinks there is more freedom to be who you are as a human.

C: Yeah, she wants to have feelings and all that shit.

G: Even though those same things you can experience as an angel, you just don't have the freedom to.

C: Yeah, I mean, I think she seems to think that you can't experience them as an angel. So like-

G: Yeah, but, you know, she understands that Cas is experiencing doubt.

C: That's true.

G: I don't know. Both of them can have journeys regarding like, "Can angels really experience this shit? What makes us different from humans? Are we really that different? Is it so important?"

C: And they can all confront God.

G: Yeah, and they can all kill God about it.

C: Yeah. [laughs] Would be nice. Unfortunately, it is not what happens in this show.

G: Also, they have, like, so much history together.

C: Yeah!

G: Every single conversation that Cas and Anna have, Cas and Uriel, Uriel and Anna- do Uriel and Anna talk? Whatever. But, like, all of those relationships are implied to have so much history together. And it's like, I don't know. What would it be like, if, like, one of your closest buddies at work just goes like, "And now I will stand against everything I believe, which are the things you believe,and I think I'm right for it, so like, obviously, I think you're wrong for you." [C: Yeah.] Like, what does that do to Cas, you know? And I'm sure it informs like, Uriel's decision in some way.

C: Like, Anna falling?

G: Yeah, that there's an angel who like, rebelled.

C: Yeah. And who wants to join humanity. "Well, I'm not gonna like, lose more people to this God propaganda." I mean, we get very few glimpses of that, and I would like to know more of their history. I would like a flashback episode.

G: For real. Wishlist for Supernatural Season 16.

C: [laughs] Season 16.

C: Back in the torture room, Alastair finally is about to reveal some information, but Dean just pours a bunch of salt down his throat.

G: This is like, the scene that I was like, "Yeah, maybe Dean is like, doing this because he likes it." 'Cause like, you know, I feel like doing the salt down the throat thing, it's like, you're gonna prevent this guy from being able to communicate with you.

C: Alastair finally says that John was supposed to be the one to "bring it on." Dean doesn't know what he's talking about. Alastair says that the first time that Dean started torturing, that was the first seal broken. Also, he calls it "The first time you sliced into that weeping bitch." Of course the first person Dean tortured was a woman. Seems correct. Dean does not want to believe this,and Alastair quotes from- I don't know where- "And it is written that the first seal shall be broken when a righteous man sheds blood in Hell. As he breaks, so shall it break." [laughs] You're telling me not a single other righteous man has shed blood in Hell?

G: What is a righteous man? Like, how do we define that?

C: I don't know. Some people define it as someone who like, sacrifices themselves by a crossroads deal.

G: I'm sure- like, that guy was like, "And I was gonna sacrifice myself for my wife who had cancer." Nobody else?

C: Right, yeah, I don't think his pain tolerance was that high. [laughs] I'm sure he broke, too.

G: No, I mean, did that guy die? I don't think so.

C: I forgor. Did they save him?

G: I think they did. They only let the Black guy die. [laughs]

C: Oh, yeah, I remember having issues with that. I'm sure there have been other people. I guess- I feel like Supernatural just thinks that like, people can withstand more torture than they can. Like, I feel like Supernatural thinks that some people don't break ever, and I don't think that's possible.

G: Another idea that I have read around is that a righteous man is like, someone who could be Michael's vessel, and that's why it's like-

C: Oh, it was John who was supposed to be it. Okay. Okay, I see it. I believe it. None of John's relatives went to Hell? I'm pretty sure they did.

G: Isn't his dad like, a Man of Letters or something?

C: Oh, and so he would go to Heaven because Supernatural supports indiscriminately killing monsters. Yeah. [laughs]

G: Yeah. I don't know, I feel like it is interesting that the Campbells are the Lucifers, and then the Winchesters are the Michaels.

C: Yeah.

G: Is that true?

C: No, it's true.

G: Or is it like "and the combination of them will result to the brothers who are the Michael and Lucifer."

C: No, no, I'm pretty sure it's the Campbells and the Winchesters [G: Okay.], 'cause they were brought together on purpose so that you would have two brothers who could house Michael and Lucifer.

G: I think that could be a good way to look at it. It's going to just be the Winchesters, and then at this point, it was just John and Dean, and John didn't break.

C: Okay. I could see it.

Dean is upset at this, and Alastair also clarifies that like, you have to break the first seal before you break the rest of them, so when the Apocalypse happens, it'll all be Dean's fault. And Alastair says, "Believe me, son, I wouldn't lie about this. It's kind of a religious sort of thing with me." which I really like. I really like.

G: I like it too.

C: I like that demons have a religion around the Apocalypse, I like applying it to Samruby, I like applying it to everything. It's great. Love it.

G: Yeah! And the fact that this is like, so sacred that it wouldn't- like, I don't know. It's good! It's good. I mean, to me, I'm glad Alastair dies this episode because, I don't know, I feel like it does lend to like, the validity of Sam's power, that he's able to kill Alastair specifically. Also, I just feel like the gimmick that they have with Alastair probably would have gotten old if they had him stick around. [C: Yeah.] The reason why he's so iconic is because he dies this episode. But fun stuff. Fun thing they have going with Alastair.

C: Dean says, "I don't think you are lying, but even if the demon's do win, you won't be there to see it." So he is planning to just fully kill Alastair, he is no longer focused on the torture-him-for-information plan. [G: Yeah.] I think you're right. This is just him getting revenge at this point. But, you know, Alastair has gotten out of the trap, out of the chains, and he punches Dean. I still can't stop laughing every time there's a punch fight in Supernatural. Like, this is supposed to be a big, serious thing, and you're just like, doing a bar fight, but with like, cooler lighting.

G: No, for real, like, Cas is like [C laughs] notoriously bad at this fights. Like, he looks goofy. [C laughs] Like, apparently they laughed at Misha Collins on set when he first punched someone in this episode 'cause it looked goofy as hell. And like, I believe it, 'cause Cas does look goofy as hell when he fights.

C: He does.

G: He's so bad at mortal combat! [C laughs] Like, he's so bad at it!

C: Can't he just do the throwing people across the room thing? Like, he doesn't touch anything this whole episode. Can't he just like, airfight people?

G: He's cute, though. He does a little twirly-twirly later.

C: Yeah. He is cute.

G: So Dean, on his knees- is he on his knees yet? He is about to be. But he's just bloodied up, and Alastair's punching him and punching him. There's this part where he gets lifted off the ground by his throat, and like, Alastair's thumb is like, really digging into the hollow of his neck, and he goes, "You've you got a lot to learn, boy, so I'll see you back in class, bright and early, Monday morning." Oh, it's a w- It's so fun! [C: Yeah.] And all I keep thinking of is that thing you always say where you go, "You're a pleasure to have in class!" [C laughs] And literally, Alastair's going, "You're a pleasure to have in class, Dean." Apparently- actually, I'm not sure if this is true. We may be spreading misinformation, beware. [C: Okay.] But, like, apparently, this scene is like, Jensen was actually lifted by the neck this way.

C: Oww.

G: Yeah. And like, I don't know, he said something like "I trust the actor to not hurt me."

C: Um-!

G: I wouldn't. [laughs] I wouldn't trust anyone to lift me by the neck. But okay, you go, girl.

C: Yeah, I don't know about that. Maybe Alastair's actor has like, a lot of training in these things.

G: Yeah. But then you still are legitimately being lifted by [laughs]- I mean, I don't know!

C: I mean, they'll do anything to these- Maybe, after like, having the like, 10,000 bees sicced on you, like, your standards for workplace safety are just shit.

G: Alastair gets disrupted by Cas. Cas shoves a knife into his shoulder. Very bad, aim, Cas. You should have just gone straight to the heart. What the fuck are you doing? [C laughs] Also, I have a question. Do you need to get fucking stabbed with this thing? Like, if you slit someone's throat with Ruby's knife, [C: It should kill.] and if someone happens to be a demon, it should kill them?

C: I think so.

G: But it seems to be like, a "You need to like get that thing in there, and it needs to like, electrocute visual effects to kill you."

C: True. I have no clue, man.

G: I don't know. The knife like, does the flickering thing, but it doesn't fully- it doesn't even seem to hurt him at all. And Alastair's like, "Well, would you look at that. God's on my side today." And Cas, who has taken a couple of steps back, lifts his hand, and then does like, a turning motion with it. And the knife is like, twisting on Alastair's shoulder. But Alastair is like, "Yeah, bit painful," but he just pulls the knife out. And it does like, have some resistance from Cas's- I don't know telekinetic powers, probably. But eventually, he tosses that knife away. And then they start to fight, in the goofiest way- [C laughing] I mean, Alastair's fine. Alastair's fine. Like, I feel like this actor’s good at like, you know, his stunts or whatever. Cas does look so fucking goofy. I mean, I don't know. I'll keep on thinking to myself like, "He's getting used to his body, you know, he's not used to-" And, I mean, he is, "- and that's why he's so bad at throwing punches." I do love how every single time we see Cas like, throw a punch, [laughs]it cuts to an angle that like, hides it. [C laughing] Like, hides, like, Misha Collins, you know? He gets thrown into a wall eventually.

C: There's blood dripping down out of his head. He looks so handsome.

G: There's a rebar on that wall?

C: Is there?

G: Yeah, he gets stabbed into it. There's like, a sound of him being impaled on the rebar. [C: Whoop.] And it's not just stabbed, too. He gets like, hooked. He gets impaled on it, and then, like, Alastair kind of like, lifts him up and then pulls him down as if like, you're putting a coat on a hook. [C: Hm!] Which is pretty fun. Pretty fun visual. Alastair says like, "Oh, you roaches- You're like roaches, these celestials. It's unfortunate. I don't know how to kill you, but I can just send you back to Heaven." Which is fun. You can exorcise angels. That's fun. [C: Yeah.] I feel like we don't really utilize this a lot, the same way we don't utilize demon exorcism in the future. It's just, there are sigils to do that now for angels, and for demons, you just kill them. They don't give a fuck. Alastair starts chanting something. Light starts kind of like, pouring out of Cas's eyes and mouth. And like, it's a different thing than the demon smoke, 'cause that shit is smoke, and you can like, actually see the smoke moving out. This is just like, a bright light. Suddenly, Alastair is like, choking.

C: Here comes Sam with the steel chair.

G: Saaam Winchester! He's here.

C: It's quite funny that it's like, "It's Dean's turn! Oh, no, he's about to die. It's Cas's turn! Oh, no, he's about to die. It's Sam's turn! Finally, this works."

G: Alastair is just fucking pinned up to the wall, and Sam starts interrogating, "Where's the angels? Who's murdering the angels? How are they doing it?" And Alastair's like, "Oh, you think I'm gonna tell you?" And Sam's like, "Yes, I do." And he twists his hand. Is it the same way that Cas twists his hand for the knife? I thought that was fun. And then we bring back the Alastair eye roll to white, which I quite like, 'cause it seems like an unconscious thing, you know. He's not on purpose doing that. And it just goes to show how much more Sam is [laughs] torturing this guy effectively. 'Cause like, Dean wasn't able to do that. [C: Mm-hm.] Alastair says, "It's not us. We're not killing the angels. I don't know who is." Alastair is like, "Okay, well, send me back to Hell if you can!" And Sam says, "No, I'm stronger than that Now, I can kill." And then he holds up his hand, closes his eyes, and then Alastair dies! [C: Yeah.] He fucking dies. He's dead.

C: You said you were gonna talk about how Cas looks in this scene.

G: Oh, yeah. This entire scene, Cas is like- when he slumps down, and then he finally stands up, he's just looking in between, like, Sam and Alastair. He's just like, following the conversation. 'Cause Sam is like, screaming in this part, kind of. He's like, demanding answers in a way that's like, quite forceful, you know. And the moment he twists his hand even more to hurt Alastair even more, Sam goes from looking at Alastair to doing a slow headturn towards Sam, kind of like, in disbelief. Like, I don't think anyone expected Sam to have this much power is the implication. I don't know. It's interesting, because, like, Ruby didn't expect Sam to be as like, gung-ho as he is right now, for example. And like, Cas knows that Sam is doing something, but not to this extent, to- Yeah, he exceeds expectations. Above average, even.

C: Does Cas know that Sam is doing something? 4.03 was like, "Stop your brother, stop doing this." 4.07, Uriel pulls Sam aside and was like, "Stop doing this." But like, when Cas comes by in 4.15, he doesn't say anything about Sam. Like, he might think that Sam has ceased his extracurricular activities.

G: But I feel like he'd know.

C: Maybe. Also, okay. So these are orders from their higher-ups that they're getting? To like, not let Sam power up? And the idea- 'cause Heaven wants the Apocalypse, right? Cas doesn't fully know the extent of the plan with, like, the Michael vessel and all that yet, I'm assuming. [G: Yeah.] But, okay, Heaven strat is just like, "We need San to be powerful enough to raise Lucifer so we can have the battle, but like, we want them just on like, the edge of that so that Lucifer's vessel isn't that powerful in the battle against Michael"? Like, what's the strat up there?

G: I don't know.

C: Okay. Whatevs. We'll find out, I suppose.

G: Maybe we won't. [laughs]

C: Or maybe we won't, due to how the show is badly written. [laughs]

C: So we cut to the hospital. Dean's there. And Sam sits next to him. He looks all like, young and innocent and scared again, which is- it's nice to see. It's nice to see him care. Cas sort of pokes his head in and then keeps walking, but Sam follows him out and demands Cas to get in there and heal him. Miracle. Now.

G: Cas says, "No, I can't." [C: Yeah] Why? [C: Why?] He just got punched in the face! What? Is a demonic punch [C laughs], like, special? Can you heal like, a regular guy punch, but a demonic punch, a bit too much?

C: Is Cas just on like, a- does he just have a "no healing allowed" rule that he's under right now?

G: Perhaps. Maybe he's like, in deeper scrutiny.

C: He'll come in and save their lives- Yeah, yeah. So that would- Yeah, 'cause they'd be like, "That's not necessary. And like, we're already suspicious of how much you care about Dean. Like, that's a weird thing to do, Cas."

G: Yeah, but like, they literally did cause Dean- like, this is their fault.

C: Yeah.

G: But I suppose they already got the info [C: Yeah.], and like, Alastair's dead, so it's not like they need Dean for more stuff.

C: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Sam is very angry 'cause he says, "You and Uriel put him in there because you can't keep a simple devil's trap together." Cas, he starts out- he sounds sort of angry on the like, "I don't know what happened. That trap-" and then he sort of like, stops and looks away and like, softens a little, and then goes, "It shouldn't have broken. I am sorry." Which is nice. Sam's still angry about how all this was pointless because the demons aren't doing this, and Cas says, "Perhaps Alastair was lying," and Sam says, "No. He wasn't." And Cas does believe this. Like, later, when he reports to Uriel, he goes like, "Sam Winchester said that like, the demons weren't doing it." So it's nice that he does have this trust in Sam. I don't know. 'Cause the whole like, "Sam has this power. Sam can kill demons" thing- like, they were like, against it, because they were like, "It's going to make him more demonic" or whatever the fuck, but like, it's nice that he does still have this trust in Sam, despite all that.

We cut to a park outside. Is there like, a significance to these these benches at children's playgrounds in Supernatural?

G: I don't know, but the gate to Heaven later does end up being like, a fucking playground.

C: Oh, a playground! Huh. Interesting. That's fun. So Uriel's there on the park bench. He's-he's trying to do his community theater acting thing [both laughing], and not doing a very good job.

G: [laughing] He literally is so bad at it! Yeah. Uriel is the funniest angel in the garrison [C: He really is.] and the worst [C laughing] thespian in all of history.

C: At what point does Cas suspect him? Do we know?

G: Later.

C: At what point is Cas like, "I think Uriel's the one who's killing the angels." 'Cause like, he does know once he's like, there and he inspects the devil's trap, but like, is he suspicious like, right now, already?

G: Huh! I don't think there's anything in the Anna conversation that would lead him to suspect. [C: Okay.], but I don't think it's now. I think it's between the Anna conversation-

C: Okay, so everything Cas is saying right now-

G: I think it's genuine.

C: - we should take as his genuine belief and not like, an attempt to like, trick Uriel or anything. Okay. Cool. So yeah. [laughing] Uriel's being soo funny. He's like, [dramatically] "Castiel! I received revelation from our superiors. Our brothers and sisters are dying, and they..." [laughing] and he does some gesture with his hands, I think, which is like, quite unnatural-looking. He goes, "They want us to stop hunting the demon responsible!" He's great. I love this guy.

G: Amazing. For real.

C: Yeah, this is the most emotion he's ever shown his entire life, and he thinks that this is like, "This will get Cas. He'll be like, 'This is my old pal Uriel acting normal.'" [G laughs] He says, "Something is wrong up there. I mean, can you feel it?" And yeah, Cas says that "I don't think a demon did this, because that's what Sam said." And Uriel's like, [stilted] "If not the demons, what could it be?" [laughs] God bless.

G: Amazing.

C: Cas says that it is the will of Heaven. He thinks that because they're failing and losing the war, the garrison is being punished.

G: That's crazy.

C: So is the will of Heaven- that's different than like, "Our superiors are doing it," like, "Our individual superiors are doing it." It's like, this is what like, God- well, but-

G: This is divine retribution, yeah, from God himself. Yeah.

C: Yeah. But then Uriel goes, "You think our father would," and Cas goes, "I think maybe our father isn't giving the orders anymore." So like, is it divine retribution, or is it just like, "I think one of our superiors is doing it"?

G: I don't know.

C: Hard to tell. What a sad thing to think, though.

G: Yeah.

C: Yeah, when Cas says, "I think maybe our father isn't giving the orders anymore," he literally said, "I'm not Anna, but I believe in her beliefs."

G: For real.

C: Yeah, like, do you think he had thought that before Anna showed up? I mean, he expressed doubt in 4.07 already, but like-

G: The thing is like, his argument of like, "I'm not like you" is like, "You fell." I don't know. I feel like the argument really isn't like, "I don't believe in what you believe," it's that "I believe it in a far superior way than you do." [both laugh]

C: Yeah, also the thing about falling is that it's Anna's choice. [G: Anna's choice!] It's not like, something that happens to an angel that disobeys. That doesn't just happen to angels that disobey. So like, he thinks he's better than Anna because... she chose to stop being an angel?

G: Yeah, I suppose, although they don't paint it like that.

C: Yeah, I mean, Cas is gonna say, "I don't serve man, and I certainly don't serve you," so I think that he he does still have, like, an angel superiority thing going on, but he also like values humans because they're God's like, creation, and it's blasphemous to say bad things about them. But like, yeah, he still wants to be separate from them in some ways.

Uriel says, "Well, I won't wait to be gutted," and then he goes. What are we supposed to-What is he communicating to Cas with "I won't wait to be gutted." 'Cause later, when he comes in, he's like, "Are you gonna join me in my fight?" So like, is "I won't wait to be gutted" like, "I'm going up to Heaven to like, stab the superiors that are killing our garrison"?

G: I don't actually know. Is it like, maybe like- No! But like, at this point, he's saying like, he doesn't believe that it's Heaven. Like, he's trying to tell Cas, like, "Oh, Heaven's not killing the angels."

C: But then he goes to "There's something wrong up there. Can you feel it?"

G: I mean, I think the implication here is that "I'm going to keep looking for that demon." but that falls apart.

C: Yeah, but then the next conversation he has with Cas just like, straight up opens with like, "Will you join me?" though, which, like, implies that Cas should know already what Uriel's goals are, like, his team's whatever things.

G: His themes and motifs, yeah. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] Castiel should have read a character analysis of Uriel already at this point. [C: Yeah.] On Schmoop, even. [laughs] [C: God.] Fuck that website. Well, I mean, it's fine. It's fine. But also, fuck that website. [laughs]

C: Yeah. It's helpful to some people.

G: We go to Cas standing under like, a streetlight on- just just a road, really. And he's saying, "Anna. Anna, please!" and the street light above him flickers. He looks up, and then Anna's behind him! And Anna says, like, "Oh, what? Have you decided to kill me, after all?" Cas says, "I'm alone. I'm considering disobedience."

C: Okay, like, great line solo. What does that mean? Like, what is the order that you're currently considering disobeying, Cas? [G: Yeah!] Like, you did the thing already. Like, you're not under an order right now. What are you disobeying?

G: The order is to stop hunting the fucking demon.

C: Yeah, which, like, you're already down for 'cause you don't think there is a demon.

G: What is he- Or maybe this is like, a bigger-

C: Yeah, I think it's like, a general thing. I'm just- I'm not sure what- Okay, if this is a general thing, it's like, what? Like, okay, "I made Dean torture. I didn't like that. So now, I'm considering that future orders from Heaven may also be wrong."?

G: Yeah.

C: Sure. I just wish this was placed at a place in the episode where it made more sense as a sentence.

G: Also, it's like, we do learn later that the order isn't from Heaven. Uriel did that shit, so, I don't know. [C: I don't know.] Maybe next episode, we'll figure out more on how that pans out for Cas. Anna says, "Good." [C: Fuck yeah.] Cas says, "No, it isn't. For the first time, I feel..." [C makes pained sound] Oh, god! And I mean, everybody knows what these fucking lines are because it's everywhere. Everything, everywhere, all at once. It's just this lines. But the "I feel" really isn't "I feel," period. It's "I feel..." and he doesn't have a word for it.

C: Yeah, he doesn't know what it is.

G: He doesn't- He can't say it, 'cause he doesn't- He probably doesn't know what it is.

C: But what is it? Is it fear?

G: I think it's doubt. I mean-

C: But he was able to say "doubt" in 4.07.

G: I don't know. Probably like., it's the feeling of like, "But I know better." Is that- I think that's different from doubt.

C: Yeah.

G: Anna says, "It gets worse. Choosing your own course of action is confusing, terrifying." She puts her hand on Cas's shoulder, and he like, looks at it. We don't actually see him like, look at it. I mean, we do. But like, sorta far away.

C: He sorta turns his face down towards it, yeah.

G: But she like, apparently gets super offended by this, and she's like, "That's right. You're too good for my help. I'm just trash, a walking blasphemy," and she goes away. And I don't understand why that was the one. But like, I suppose the last time she did touch Cas, he did like, shove her away for it. She starts walking away. Cas goes, "Anna. I don't know what to do. Please tell me what to do." [C screams] And she says, "Like the old days? No, I'm sorry. It's time to think for yourself." [C: Yeah.] God. I mean, we've talked about this in our Good Omens podcast, Rubbish and Probably a Podcast, but, like, the tendency when you are ridding yourself of a force that has, you know, dictated much of your existence is to find another force that will dictate your existence [C: Yeah. Uh-huh.] and hope that this one is better and hope this one aligns more with your wants and needs and values and stuff.

C: Yeah. He is begging her to be God, basically.

G: To be- yeah. To be the new God. [C: Yeah. Yeah.] To be the new person to tell him what is right and what is wrong and what to do and what not to do. And she refuses.

C: Yeah. And she tells him it's time to leave the garden.

G: And they don't even like, interact substantially after this episode, I feel like.

C: Yeah. Yeah. It'd be nice to see them talk. Like, especially later seasons Cas. Like, "Hey, look where I am now. Thank you."

G: He's healing babies in the park and everything.

C: I wish Anna was the one who stayed on.

G: I do feel more of an attachment to Cas's story right now, just because it's more of a journey, rather than Anna, who feels like she has already reached the destination.

C: Yeah, but I feel like she still has more places to go.

G: Of course, yeah. I think she does, too. It's just Supernatural's [laughs] a terrible- a misogynistic show. Yeah, it is.

C: Yeah. Unfortunately.

G: I love this because every single time Cas is left alone, we pan out, like, in the fucking- in the playground, when Uriel leaves, we pan out, and like, it's just this little angel surrounded by the everything. [C: Mm-hm.] And then here, when Anna leaves, we pan out and it's just Cas under that lamp surrounded by the everything. [C: Yeah.] Cas's physicality is so important to me, because, like, it's not him, but like, it's him, also, you know? [C: Yeah.] Like, he is bigger than this, but also, he is this, and I think that- it's so nice. It's so wonderful! Having him be like, small in the frame really, really like, accentuates those ideas, I feel.

C: Yeah.

G: Cas goes back to the like, fucking torture chamber, and he's kneeling down in front of the little divot in the devil trap that has led Alastair escape. He notices the faucet; he stops it with his hand telekinetically.

C: Yeah. We also get some fun shots of him looking up like, all the way up. [G: Yeah! Of course.] It's very good.

G: And yeah, Uriel's there. Apparently, Cas called him. And I mean, at this point, it's like, for sure, Cas knows already. [C: Yeah.] Uriel asks like, "Okay, what do you say, Castiel? Will you join me? Will you fight with me?" And Cas goes, "Strange. Strange how a leaky pipe can undo the work of angels when we ourselves are supposed to be the agents of fate."

C: What does that mean? Like, that coincidences and accidents and mistakes just shouldn't happen to angels?

G: Yeah, I think.

C: Like, "We would have considered all possibilities. I considered all possibilities. So how did this happen?"

G: Yeah. I mean later, he says, like, "I made it myself," like, "This shouldn't have happened." I think part of it is that like, "agents of faith" as in like, "It was always meant to go this way, and the fact that it didn't is like, "That's going against my very being as an angel 'cause like, I made it have to go this way, and then it didn't. So something must have changed that was also done by an angel." [C: Interesting.] Yeah, and Cas goes, you know, "No demon can overpower the trap. I made it myself. We've been friends for a long time, Uriel. Fought by each other's side, served together away from home for what seems like forever. We're brothers, Uriel. Pay me that respect. Tell me the truth."

C: Flashback episode, please!

G: I know! Also in season... When did we first get corporate angelhood? I think that's in Season 6, right?

C: Probs.

G: But here, it's less that. And I think most of it is that the angels we see are less corporate. Like, Zachariah later on seems to be like an office guy, but, like, Uriel and Cas and Anna are not office workers of Heaven. [laughs] They're the door-to-door salesman of Heaven, [C laughs] you know? Like, they're out there on the road. I don't know. I think it's so interesting that the angels that we do see are not in their like, quote-unquote "natural habitat," you know? Like, they currently exist outside of that. And like, the idea of like, away from home, like, away from Heaven. Oh, Cas. For what seems like forever, even. If you have been away from Heaven that long, would it still even feel like home? In season 6, we see Cas in Heaven, but he didn't seem particularly at home in Heaven. He was in that guy's Heaven for a while, like, a specific like, cell in Heaven, specific room in it, but it wasn't like, home. He just liked it. I don't think there's a part in Supernatural where I would ever say Cas is like, solidly at home. It would be nice if he did. Like, you know, in Season 14, Dean says, like, "We live here. This is our home. Like, we live with an angel, a half angel, and the two of us." I don't know. The show seems to want us to believe that Cas thinks of the bunker as home [C: Yeah.], but I'm not particularly convinced, I would say. [C: Yeah.] I suppose for Cas here, it's like, less about the place and more of the people you spend all of that time with, and Uriel is like his brother because they have spent that long together.

Uriel says, "The truth is the only thing that could kill an angel," and then a blade slips out of his sleeve, and he goes, "It's another angel." This is our first angel blade. [C: Yeah.] Fun stuff! Fun stuff.

C: Big fan.

G: I love that. They keep it up their sleeves, and I love that they keep this detail for 5ever. Like, it's never changed. [C: Yeah.] How does that even work? They just have a-

C: Aren't there theories that thy're the physical manifestation of their Grace?

G: Mm, so it's like-

C: They form it.

G: - they fucking summon it the ether. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's fun.

C: I mean, doesn't Dean just have one that he uses?

G: Yeah. They steal it from like, angels who are dead.

C: Yowch.

G: They also have like, an archangel blade, which is so funny. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. Get a bigger gun or a bigger knife.

Castiel goes, "You." Uriel did all that shit. And Uriel starts calling Cas "Cas," which I think is quite fun.

G: 'Cause the implication of the name, everybody to hell and back has said is already.

C: The removing the "of God" part?

G: Yeah.

C: He is telling Cas like, turn away from Heaven and raise Lucifer with them. So yeah. And it's also just a- I don't know. Maybe it's a mocking thing, maybe it's a familiarity thing, but I'm a fan. So yeah. He says that "Alastair should never have been taken alive. Really inconvenient, Cas." And yeah, he says that the plan was for Alastair to kill Dean and to escape and then for Cas to keep on like, hunting down demons. And Cas says, "For the murders of our kin?" And Uriel says, "Not murders, Castiel. No. My work is conversion." Very fun. I love the way that Uriel uses religious language. Like, "receive revelation" for angel radio, "conversion" for this. And then they kill him, and no one else talks cool ever again in all of Supernatural. He goes, "How long have we waited here? How long have we played this game by rules that make no sense?" He's literally right. He's literally correct. [G: Yeah.] Like, these are the questions everyone is asking. Like, Anna and Cas have been asking these questions too.

G: But, like, the thing is, Supernatural is a very human-centric show. [C: Yeah.] So like, the moment someone asks the same questions and comes to the conclusion of, "But like, I don't really give a shit about the humans," it's like over.

C: Yeah, it is indeed over.

G: They have to have these questions and be like, "And humanity is the answer to all of our woes!" [C laughs] Annoying as fuck.

C: Aiya. Annoying as fuck. Yeah, Cas says, "It is our father's world, Uriel." Cas, you literally like, five minutes ago, were like, "God's not giving the orders anymore." Like, get over yourself.

Uriel says, "Our father. He stopped being that, if he ever was, the moment he created them. Humanity, his favorites, this whining, puking larva." He's so cool! He's so cool. Why did they kill him? Ah! And just the idea of angels as like, jealous children who like, grew up [G: Yeah.], is like, neat! It's neat as hell! I enjoy it!

G: Like, you were a single child for a long time, [laughs] and then suddenly, you have a little kid in the house, and you're like, "Why? He's annoying as fuck."

C: [laughs] Yeah. And he's been stationed on Earth for a long time. I guess in that whole time, he was just like, "These people are so annoying." And like, he's right a lot of- Yeah, I'm sure that he encountered a lot of annoying people. I get it.

G: Yeah, he had a post blow up on Tumblr, and he was like, "They should all kill themselves." [both laugh]

C: So Cas asks, "Are you trying to convert me?" And Uriel says, "I wanted you to join me, and I still do. With you, we can be powerful enough to-" [laughs] Literally untrue. Did you see his goofyass punches? [G laughs] Cas can't do anything!

G: He almost died. Alastair was fully going to send his ass back to Heaven.

C: [laughing] Alastair almost killed him in 4.10, and Dean had to save him. This time, Alastair almost kills him and Sam has to save him. How does Cas have any power that can help us raise Lucifer? Uriel really does love Cas. Like, they really are brothers. The fact that he's able to overlook how much Alastair tosses him around like a rag doll and is like, "No, you're actually really cool, and you could totally help me on my team!" This is a pity invite.

G: For real. [both laugh] He was like, "Everybody else said no. We need to fill up the table, though, so like, we have like, one more meal-"

C: [laughing] No, exactly. There are seven people he asked first, and that's because they were all better than Cas. [G laughing] God.

G: [laughing] For real!

C: Yeah. So he says, "To raise our brother." And Cas says, "Lucifer." And Uriel goes, "You do remember him? How strong he was? How beautiful? And he didn't bow to humanity. He was punished for defending us. Now, if you want to believe in something, Cas, believe in him." No one will ever talk this cool again! But yeah, anyway, I don't have much to say. Just a great concept. It'd be nice if Uriel- okay, 'cause it's like, Uriel and the demons seem to be following sort of the same religion. Like, we've talked about this belief in Lucifer being a religion in Hell. But I guess just 'cause Uriel considers himself far, far superior to the demons, no epic team up could ever happen. But if they let him stick around for a while more, I feel like they'd eventually come to an understanding.

G: There's going to be character development, yeah.

C: Yeah, I feel like we could get epic team up. But, alas! Cas says like, "Lucifer is not God." But Uriel says, "God isn't God anymore." Hell yeah, babey! And he says he's proof that God just doesn't give a shit about what they're doing. He goes on and says that he killed the members of the garrison who said no, but others have joined him. He says, yeah, "Others have joined me, Cas. Now, please, brother, don't fight me. Help me! Help me spread the word. Help me bring on the Apocalypse. All you have to do is be unafraid." And Cas says, "For the first time in a long time, I am." which is supposed to echo like, "For the first time, I feel..." I- okay. "For the first time in a long time, I'm unafraid."How long has he been afraid? What- is he referring to just the start of the Apocalypse or just all his time on Earth? What has he been afraid of? Just his dwindling faith?

G: Maybe so. Yeah.

C: In this moment, when he's like- does Uriel saying this make Cas, what? Like, reaffirm his belief in God? Because he like, heard an opposing position, and he was like, "I know in my heart this is wrong"? Why is this the thing that makes him brave again?

G: I think maybe- Not that like, "this is wrong," like, the totality of it, but like, I think this is like, "I have figured out how I will interface with the feelings I'm feeling, and it's not this way."

C: Yeah. Good for him. Cas like, hurls Uriel through a wall, and they like, fistfight again. And then Castiel gets hit by a big ol metal bar. He like, falls on his knees, and he says, "You can't win, Uriel. I still serve God." And Uriel says, "You haven't even met the man!" Agh! Slay. And then, "There is no will."

G: Yeah. You didn't even mention when Cas gets fucking tossed to a beam and then he falls through it, and then to get up, he like twirls! [C: Oh! Cute.] He literally does a princess twirlto fucking get on his feet.

C: Good for him. Yeah.

G: And then he braces himself with like, two fists beside his face. He is so goofy! [C laughs] He looks so small and scrungly, as the Tumblrinas slay.

C: Yeah. [laughs] You know, Uriel's punching Cas between sentences as he goes, "There is no will. No wrath. No God." Hell yeah! But then, extremely unfortunately, on the last punch, he gets stabbed from behind through the neck by Anna. Why did she come back? Why is she here? I don't think Cas like, told her. Okay, whatever. I guess she just came back to check on everyone, and this happened. But yeah, she does have a pretty banger line. She says, "Maybe. Or maybe not. But there's still me." God.

G: Hell yeah!

C: Yeah, I like that Anna's stance is like, agnosticism. Like, that seems like a nice place for her to land. And yeah, she pulls out the knife and Uriel collapses on the ground and then screams, and like, we see, like, a bunch of white light come out of his eyes and mouth, and like, basically, the building looks like it explodes. And then when we cut back. We see Uriel dead on the ground with his wings in the form of ashes all across the floor. It looks really neat. I am very sorry that Uriel's dead, though, and that this creates a pattern with Supernatural and Black angels in general. Yeah.

G: The shot of like, Cas and Anna. Like, Anna standing beside Cas and Cas is kneeling as though the light engulfs the room,that's like, pretty iconic. I see that a lot, too, around.

G: So we go to the hospital bed, and Dean is like, sitting next to him on like, the couch beside the bed, and he asks, "Are you alright?" And [laughs] he says, "No thanks to you." And Cas says, "You need to be more careful."

C: It's nice blocking. It feels a lot more like a conversation between equals.

G: Yeah, that's true. They start talking, and Cas is asking how Dean is, and Dean's like, "Bad." And Cas says, "You need to be more careful," and Dean says, "You need to learn how to manage a damn devil's trap." And Cas says, "Oh, no, that's not what I mean. Uriel is dead. It's not the demons. It's disobedience. He was working against us."

C: That's an interesting way to put it. "Disobedience"? Like, disobeying- I don't know. That's not how I would put it. Like, disobedience is something that Cas was considering earlier, but now he's-

G: This is like, more like treason, I would say?

C: Yeah, or like, rebellion, something something. But yeah, I don't know. Like, why does he use that word? Is he just sort of trying to distance himself emotionally from what's happened back there?

G: I think maybe it's like, this is Dean. Maybe if he was talking to someone else about it. But Dean is like, literally lying on a hospital bed right now, so like, let's not get into it, you know?

C: Sure.

G: Dean asks, "Is it true that I break the first seal?" And Cas says, "Yes. When we discovered Lilith's plan for you, we laid a siege to Hell to get you, but, you know. Too late." Dean asks, "Why didn't you leave me there?" And Cas says, "It's not blame that falls on you, Dean. It's fate," which, I love that line. I love it! "The righteous man who begins it is the only one who can finish it. You have to stop it." And Dean says, "What? Like, Lucifer? The Apocalypse? What does that mean?" Cas doesn't respond for a long time, and like, moves his head away. And yeah, Dean's like, "No, don't fucking disappear on me. What does that mean?" And Cas says, "I don't know! Like, they don't tell me much. But yeah, I know our faith rests with you." [C: Yeah.]And Dean says, "Well, then, you guys are screwed. I can't do it. It's too big. Alastair was right. I'm not all here. I'm not strong enough. I'm not the man either of our dads wanted me to be. Find someone else. It's not me."

C: I really like that-

G: And a single man tear-

C: Oh, yeah, I don't give a fuck about Dean. [laughing] I really like Cas said-

G: No, I don't really- Okay, go on.

C: Okay. I like the, "Dean, they don't tell me much." a lot.

G: Yeah.

C: Because, you know, earlier in the season, Cas is like, he's doing this thing where he like, seems so untouchable, and he's the one who's withholding information from Dean, and like, giving it to him on a need-to-know basis. And this is like, I feel like, a moment of vulnerability that, like, he is aware, is a moment of vulnerability unlike, all of his previous stuff where he's like, "Yeah, I like you, but that doesn't mean anything." This is like, "We're in the same position here."

G: And also this is like, could be a dangerous thing to tell Dean if he doesn't plan to keep on trusting this guy. [C: Yeah.] Because, like, suddenly, when Dean is asking questions and Cas just goes, "It's a greater plan," like, it's easier for Dean to question him now, [C: Yeah.] 'cause he has revealed that he doesn't really know what the fuck that means. [C: Mm-hm.] It's both like, a reveal of vulnerability, of like, "I am not as powerful as you think I am," and also like, "And if you want to use that against me, you now can, due to I have volunteered that information to you." [C: Mm-hm.]

G: So yeah, what did we think about this episode?

C: I mean, it's good.

G: It's good. And it's one of those episodes where- I feel like there are some episodes where they can be good, it's just there are parts that are like, boring. Like, maybe the A-plot is good, but the B-plot is so-so, or the B-plot is good and the A-plot is confusing as hell. This is one of those instances where they pretty much just solidly stick to one plot [C: Yeah.], and it works. It's not boring, the pacing is good. It works. And I quite like that. [C: Yup.] I'm a big fan of, especially towards the end of Supernatural, where they would have a monster of the week that, like, morphs into a plot episode. Those are my favorites. My favorite episode, pretty much of all time in Supernatural- I don't know if I've said this before, and if I have, I'm not sure I said this episode. Like, maybe I said something else, like "Dog Dean Afternoon" or whatever. [C laughs] But like, my favorite episode of Supernatural is "Ouroboros." [C: Yeah.] And that episode is, it's a case episode, and then something real bad happens at the end, and it becomes a plot episode. Like that episode is essential to the plot, but, you know, it's a case. And towards the end of Supernatural, those ones are real good because, like, you need to spice up the case episode somehow, but, like, here in Season 4, I do like that they kind of keep it separate. The case episodes are case episodes, and the plot episodes are plot episodes. I feel like separating it in those ways kind of like, gives the plot episodes like, so much energy and so much like, "Ooh!" Like, you know it, it gives it- it makes it so meaty, so dense.

C: Yeah. Best Line/Worst Line? I really like Cas's "Anna, I don't know what to do. Please tell me what to do." And I like that Anna like, does like, a slight little smile, and says, "Like the old days." in response, like, calling it out for what it is. It's a great exchange!

G: I think my best line for me is the one I spent a really long time talking about. The "Dean, we know this is difficult for you" and "We don't care." Uriel's response to that. Not exactly for the line itself, but just the surrounding like, visuals of it, I really quite like. Also, additional best line, as I said, I really like that Alastair was singing. I like it! [C laughs] So I'm putting that as a best line also. Worst line-

C: I do think the moments where I was sort of taken out of it is when, you know, Anna's like, "Torture? That's God's will" or whatever, 'cause it's like, I don't think Supernatural has a good stance on that. I feel like they don't- Yeah, they're just saying shit.

G: There's a line where Dean is like, [laughs] preparing his torture materials, and Alastair's, you know, Alastair goes, "He was supposed to bring it on"--like, John--"John was supposed to bring it on, but in the end, it was you." And Dean goes, "Bring what on?" I don't like that he inquires in that moment.

C: Right, you feel like he wouldn't engage in that.

G: Yeah, I feel like he wouldn't engage in that. And also, the entire conversation could go the exact same way minus that line. [C: Yeah.] Like, Alastair will just keep on talking. He does not need prompting. I feel like Dean prompting that, I just think he wouldn't do it. And when I was watching it, I did go, "That's not something he would say."

So, spreadsheets?

C: It's hard to quantify the racism of Uriel’s death because it's like- I feel like the way that we have this structure where it's episode-by-episode points doesn't seem to like, account for the fact that, like, a lot of the racism of Supernatural is just like, an ongoing problem, and this is just some part of that.

G: Something we say a lot with Supernatural is like, "If this was any other show, this would probably be fine, [C: Right.] but because it's in Supernatural, where it's already existing in the context of every single other thing that they do that you can describe as such in the show, it's like, 'Well, it is in Supernatural, and they do have a history of doing this over and over again, and not doing anything else that can like, maybe provide their female characters or their characters who are not white with any more like, characterization, or they're not given the same benevolence or the same like, care. They're not engaged with the same care that like, Sam or Dean' or whatever," It's like, yeah.So I don't really know what to put.

C: Yeah. We gave 4.10 two points in racism, which was for, I think, Uriel's misogyny being part of the larger Supernatural pattern of making Black male characters unlikable by having the misogynistic to white women. [G: Yeah.] Was Ruby possessing the maid also in 4.10?

G: Yes.

C: So that's probably why we gave that two points. So then, Uriel's death would probably be like, a bump up from that.

G: A 3?

C: Yeah, like, a 3. Is that reasonable?

G: I think so, yeah.

C: Okay, cool. Misogyny... I think it was fine? [G: Yeah.] I don't recall any.

G: Yeah.

C: Okay.

G: So, IMDb.

C: Okay, people like this. I'd say it's a 9.

G: People like this. I think this is a 9 point something.

C: Yeah. Same.

G: I would go for a 9.4, even. 9.4

C: Oh, wow. I think I was aiming more for like, 9.2 range? Well, okay, "Laz Rising" got a 9.4. I feel like people like this about as much but a little less than "Laz Rising," so maybe a 9.3? I'm gonna go with that.

G: Okay. Well, let us see. It's a 9.1. [C: Okay.] Still pretty high, not as high as I thought it would be. But this is still a highly-rated episode

Oh god, the fucking- You know how like, they have those photos that are like, not exactly in the episode, but like, it's in the promo or whatever? It's in the sides. I don't know-

C: Oh, the Cas's fat ass one? [both laughing]

G: The Cas's fat ass picture! You know, I told you about the bookmark, right? [C: Yeah.] I have a bookmark of Cas. Back-to-back. That shit is back-to-back. And the front is the picture from last episode, and the back is [laughs] this picture of Cas looking like this. [C laughs] Crazy!

C: Hell yeah.

G: I mean, I don't expect any funny reviews on this because, like, the funny reviews are usually in the episodes that are a bit bad. Oh my god, this one is " Unwatchable... seriously, it was almost painful "

C: Aw, why? Did they think Alastair's voice was annoying?

G: They don't like Alastair.

C: Yeah, there were moments when I was like, "It's a bit much." Huh! What? This person says that they don't like Anna. Like, "I know Anna saved the day and saved Castiel, but to me she is no different from Ruby. Both are manipulative and can't be trusted." I think you might have had a problem with women? What did Anna do wrong?

G: I think part of it is that -

C: Just that, like, her sleeping with Dean is sort of paralleled with Sam sleeping with Ruby or something? Like, is that what it is? Is it just her trying to get Cas to like, join her? Is that-? She's fine, though. What'd she do?

G: I mean, I think we did say that like, the Dean and Anna stuff, blah blah blah. But I feel like it's a different thing than the Cas and Anna stuff.

C: Also, the show doesn't frame it as-

G: Doesn't engage with it that way. I think part of it is-

C: - sleeping with Dean at an emotionally vulnerable moment, so that's- Yeah, I don't know what it is. What do you think it is?

G: The Cas scene is like, she's trying to hold his hand, and that can be seen as like, "She's trying to elicit an emotion out of him through physicality," which I don't agree with like, at all. I think she's just a human being who's used to being in a human society.

C: Yeah, she spent a lot of time being a person, yeah.

G: And she understands that if you want to connect with a person in ways mere words can't bridge, you do tend to touch, to like, show that kind of like, "And this is what I mean, and I'm touching you so you understand that I mean it for real." [C: Mm-hm.] That's how I read that scene. And, like, thing is just Cas doesn't have those social mores, and like, the moment he understands that that's what Anna is trying to say, like, he gets offended, too, so. [C: Yeah.] But I don't think that's manipulation.

C: Yeah, she's trying to convince him.

G: Well, I think that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 4, Episode 17: "It's a Terrible Life." Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts. C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com. G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

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