#to be clear this isn't irl cultural appropriation

[strixludica]

Spanish Sunzi (Spanzi) meme dump (the middle one isn't mine)

[fels-fantasy-hoard]

One of my friends and players just brought something up to me that I think is a discussion that should be had and that is:

Should white people make ocs that are poc in ttrpgs

She sent me two ticktocks here and here where two poc talk about how it makes them uncomfortable when white people play as poc in ttrpgs and she was freaking out because her oc from the last 3-4 years in our campaign is mix raced. My friend is also mix raced but white passing and she was afraid she was offending people.

So, I just wanna give my perspective from observing this same discussion in other writing communities - because it is essentially the same discussion of whether or not white people can write poc in novels, video game, movies, etc because it all comes down to aesthetic appropriation.

Now, if any poc would like to add their own thoughts and experiences with this please do, your voices are much more important than mine - a white person - so I'm going to put my thoughts under a cut. I'm basically going to talk about my own observations within the fantasy genre as a whole when it comes to ethnicity and race and the patterns I've seen and how that translates into the ttrpg medium. Cheers :D

So, the main problem I've seen brought up when white people try to be inclusive by adding poc in their stories is that their inclusion stops at aesthetics. A poc is still written with the mindset of a white person. Changing the ethnicity of a character changes nothing about them and - many times - their ethnicity isn't even clear. They are south Asian but of which country? Which region? South Asians are an incredibly diverse ethnic group just like Afrians or Central/South Americans. If you can swap the ethnicity of a character without changing anything about them, then you aren't actually making good representation, you are doing the bare minimum of preventing an all white cast. It's 2023, we should hold ourselves and each other to higher standards.

Now, when it comes to fantasy stories, there is a bit of a problem. The worlds within fantasy settings become so much smaller because humans often share the setting with nonhumans such as elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. This means humans are often turned into a european monolith - or something very close to it - while other real world ethnicities are shoved onto fantasy lineages (often times still flavors of european).

I dont think I need to point out why this is a problem. Humans continue using the aesthetics of nonwhite ethnicities but completely divorced of their culture and context. This is the definition of appropriation. I can think of dozens of fantasy stories from various mediums where there would be no change if a poc was white because their ethnicity has no impact on their characterization - as seen with various video game characters who's skin becomes lighter and lighter through every installment or has dark skinned concept art and a light skinned final product.

You want your fantasy setting to be a mixing pot of cultures and ethnicities? Ok, look at the US and how all of these different cultures remain intact even after generations. Yes, there is a level of assimilation but even fourth gen Mexican immigrants are still influenced their culture. Mix raced people have their own unique struggles and cultural experiences. Every country in the world has their own unique mixing pot of cultures and ethnicities. No country is a monolith as that would require committing cultural and/or ethnic genocide to everyone who does not fit the predestined mold.

A setting can have a mixing pot of cultures without racism or prejudice. You can have a human civilization that isn't a monolith. Don't be afraid to research different cultures to represent them with respect. Not only will it make your setting feel more immersive, it will give you a deeper understanding and respect for people irl.

It's always boggled my mind when people say irl race doesn't matter in fantasy then immediately turn around with fantasy racism like... seriously? The beauty of humanity is how diverse our cultures are and yet you'd rather dismiss this beauty over using the violence of prejudice and racism as cheap conflict in your story.

If you actually want to be inclusive in your fantasy stories, do research. Talk to poc of the ethnicity you are trying to represent.

If you are a player wanting to make an oc that is a different ethnicity than you - consider why? Does the character's physical appearance actually matter to their story? Are you willing to put in the work to represent this character's culture and respect the irl culture and people you are drawing from? Is this even your story to tell? If your answer to any of these questions is no, then maybe you should rethink some things.

I don't have the answer on whether or not white people should be allowed to make their oc a person of color but I think this question is indicative of a much larger problem within the fantasy genre of aesthetic appropriation and surface level representation of poc. I don't have any answers - other than put more effort into representing different ethnicities and cultures which its whole own can of worms- but its a conversation that should be had.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts and feel free to correct me or add your own experiences with this. I want to learn so I can write better representation in my stories and understand different perspectives better. Cheers :D

[fandom-madness69]

So I'd just like to say if you do believe in these gods and goddesses from PJO or any other literature you've read, do yourself a favor and make it clear you're joking about being their child. Or start worshipping them appropriately. The gods don't take kindly to these things.

I'm not saying don't do you. Baby do you as you please but I am saying, maybe don't invoke the wrath of the gods of any religion or culture.

And if you don't believe in those gods and goddesses then by all means this post isn't for you.

But if you do I'd get to clarifying that you're joking, or build an altar and start worshipping. Take it from someone who boldly claims to be a Child of Demeter. She doesn't go unnoticed in this house. I may not have anything for her right now but when we move? Into our actual house, house? Oh the only reason she's not angry with me is because she knows I'm building her a shrine in my garden.

Sure I give most of my floral offerings to her daughter Persephone (the rest go to the rest of the gods from different cultures that I work with and worship when I have a lot of them to give) currently but that's something that doesn't bother her. Especially since Persephone likes when I give her the almost dead/starting to wilt flowers.

But the shrine that's going in my garden? It's going to be all for Demeter. It will be a part of my daily ritual to offer up prayer, offerings and thanks at said shrine daily.

So please if you believe they're real like I do then get to securing yourself from incurring their wrath. Because yeah they have learned and grown IRL but buddy they only tolerate so many bold claims, and so much technical disrespect.

[utilitycaster]

@nairdde32 replied to your post “Episode Thoughts”:

Wait so, they need to slow down, but also just throw laudmogen away because they're not going fast enough? I'm confused. Also the reason they didn't have closer ties to the setting is probably because they knew they were outsiders irl and didn't think it was appropriate.

​This is an extremely revealing reply, and I disagree with all of it:

Having Laudna die is not "throwing laudmogen away"; it's a character death, with all that entails. However, it's been immensely clear that the fandom continues to have little conception of Laudna beyond "can be put into a relationship with Imogen" and "Delilah". It's true that I primarily focused on Imogen's relationship with Laudna, because that was what was most in focus this episode...but also, yes, the plot needs to slow down but their relationship has felt simultaneously stagnant but unrealized.

Think about Caleb and Nott, Fjord and Jester, or Yasha and Molly early in Campaign 2, or even the Ring of Brass in Calamity (note: I'm excluding campaign 1 because I can't say for sure how much is home game vs. pre-planned). There was a weight of knowing each other in those pairs or groups that I just don't see. They've been traveling with just each other for 2 years. Where's the anecdotes? Where's the inside jokes? Where's literally any sense of shared experience prior to coming to Jrusar a few months ago and moving in together? Imogen doesn't even know Delilah isn't a goddess. Laudna continually does not realize how Imogen feels about her powers, something that, once again, most of the rest of the party and minor NPCs seem to have picked up on. If I had to be generous, I'd say that because the two of them both felt so ostracized they were too terrified to open up further for fear that this person would leave them too, and for what it's worth I think Marisha has done that work with Laudna's characterization...but it hasn't moved forward.

And yes, the plot needs to slow down so there is more time for character conversations and character beats; this is not a contradiction. In this case, actually, I can use Campaign 1 as an example...think about Vasselheim, or the build-up to the Briarwoods. Not a ton was going on, plot-wise; they spent much of Vasselheim on fetch quests and shopping, and then they spent a lot of time in Emon mostly messing around and then traveling, but there were tons of conversations in those arcs that truly haven't had time to occur in this campaign because we keep having hour-long lore dumps instead.

I also want to be clear: I would not be advocating to just kill off one of them to fix the plot or anything...but yeah, if one of them has died? I think there's a lot that can be done with a new character that Laudna, who I think is a very good character who's in a campaign that doesn't work well for her, cannot achieve.

This was already long but the second part is actually truly baffling. If a white cast believes they cannot tell a story about a continent primarily inspired by western, southern, and southeast Asian cultures then that's a valid choice, but then don't tell the story. Set the campaign in Issylra or the Shattered Teeth, and give Marquet over to EXU series.

I would argue it makes it worse to still tell the story, but rather than having characters rooted in the setting allowing you to truly engage with the cultures, to actively decide to tell it from the perspective of outsiders. Indeed, one of the main ideas in Said's Orientalism is that stories about Western Asia are told largely through the lens of the visiting colonizer. It seems a disservice to run two campaigns where PCs are tied to people, powers, and cities on the continent in a way that informs how much they care about their home, and then to specifically decide not to do that for Marquet and play characters who will pull the plot to Tal'Dorei instead. And to be clear, I think this was an oversight, not a deliberate choice, which is good, because an oversight is an understandable mistake and a deliberate choice would be, well, all of the above. A deliberate choice would also make the fact that the singular Marquesian character is, in fact, a white woman, completely nonsensical.

[doubleddenden]

I was very tempted to go back and give an old story self insert story I had gotten attached to an ending, but I think I don't want to anymore. After reading through this, 19 year old me used it more as a vent journal than any actual medium of story telling, and it was so clear I was using it as a method of coping instead of anything meaningful.

So much has changed. Families have changed, significant others have changed, living situations have changed, and thankfully my overall state of mind has changed. I mean I'm still depressed and sad but I'm a different brand of it now.

I do absolutely love some of the ideas presented as a story idea, though.

4 guys get trapped in another world

One is the creator of the world from their universe, so he knows a lot

A lot he doesn't know and is evident he just made things up as he went

All 4 have tremendous power, but the author is definitely weaker and has to struggle more to keep up with the others

Actual trouble adjusting to the new world's currency and customs, and cultural clash

They act like teenagers (fitting because we were teenagers). They do stupid shit, talk about girls constantly, hijinks, get angry irrationally and argue irrationally, etc.

The author ends up creating his own unique weapon using the loop holes of the universe presented

So do the others, and it miffs him at first, but they bond and take notes over the new stuff

Creative choices to the original story had dangerous consequences to the boys and the people they befriended

Just the overall island choice. Every fantasy story is the the forest or mountains or both. Granted hardly anything happened but I mean it was neato

Even though it is terribly out dated, the author meets his characters he was writing about and feels the weight of what he put them them for a decent narrative, and in the end they actually befriend and thank him before he has to leave

It was cringey af but I do like the idea that relationship ideas were explored rather than set in stone. IE instead of first girl being main girl, there were beginnings and endings of a couple of them throughout.

And honestly I do like how stupidly relaxed everyone is. Like OKAY WE HAVE A MONTH LEFT TO DEAL WITH THE BIG BAD but instead let's go get drunk and eat burritos and babysit a kid. Why worry about ends meet when you can just get stupid drunk a couple of times and earn enough money to live off of through poker in a night none of you can remember? Why treat the big bad like actual big bads when you can just amass a drunken army to beat one and play rock paper scissors to beat another?

But the cringey shit just makes it impossible to finish.

Pairing myself (to be fair, myself as the character and not actually myself) with a fox girl and hot girl later on

somehow my favorite games are still a thing but all the ones I dislike are all dead in this alternate universe that takes place a few hundred thousand years on another planet after exodus from earth, of which I go into painstaking detail about why Sonic is superior and COD is terrible

The main four will have random mood swings between chapters that take place hours or minutes between each other, evidence of some quarrel I and my friends had in real life

Outdated thinking that isn't really appropriate in this day and age

Just. So much bad formatting and sentence structure in general, not to mention terrible over use of words or statements that hardly made a difference once I replaced them on mass with blank spaces

I'm not going to lie, we were teenagers, were horn dogs, and I do remember having a conversation IRL discussing plot and all 4 of us said "needs more tiddies and cursing"

Incorporating other real people into plot (some upon request, some on a whim) that came and went either by break up or disowning

Generally in comparison to where I've brought most of the characters and the characters I've replaced with (ie 4 guys based on me and my friends verbatim down to having the same nanes, to two guys and a girl that are completely fictional but are more or less compressed successors of us), and the improvements to power structure and the world at large, and the plots I imagine, this has just aged like milk. Milk mixed with a drop of wine, sure, but the milk has been sitting in the hot sun in a humid swamp for 6 years

That being said, after fixing a lot of formatting and spelling errors, I might just delete the ol DA posts and just let this collect some dust in the ol "Crypt of Cringe" folder. Maybe someday I'll revisit it to give it that grand ol ending it never got.