#totk speculation

[robislav1986-blog]

I've been actively avoiding the fan communities to stay spoiler-free up to now, so forgive me if this has been brought up before, but quick question. Does anyone recall how Rhondson and Hudson got engaged almost immediately after you brought her in as the town tailor? Because between that and Mipha's intent to give Link the Zora armor as an engagement gift, I get the impression that Hyrule women make marriage proposals by offering articles of clothing to their intended husbands.

With that in mind, it suddenly makes a lot more sense why Zelda was so excited in her diary entry about the tunic she made for Link, why she went to so much effort to keep it secret, and why she arranged for him to find it in the throne room. The same throne room, mind you, where the seat of power is conspicuously repositioned to be off center, as if to make room for TWO thrones (which you can see in the puppet Zelda's illusion). The implications sort of speak for themselves.

Anyway, I just wanted to ruin y'all's day with that added layer of angst over the situation.

[legendofzoodles]

Genuine question: how does the Royal Family line continue from the King of Light? I’m legit serious. Sonia dies in TotK. We don’t see or hear of her and Rauru having any children. How is Zelda related to Sonia and Rauru if Sonia died before she could have children? 

You could say that Zelda is the descendant of a family member of Sonia, a cousin, aunt or uncle etc who also inherited time powers. But Zelda is royalty, she’s the princess of Hyrule and has inherited both time and light powers. Rauru was the ruling King and we know Sonia to only have been ‘Queen consort’ since Ganondorf stated in a cutscene that Rauru took “a Hylian woman” to be his wife. Any legitimate heirs to the kingdom would have be related to him, not Sonia. 

When Sonia said she sensed a blood connection I’m sure she meant to include her husband. So...did...did he marry one of Sonia’s relatives after her death? Or...did Mineru marry a relative of Sonia? 

Am I missing something or is this an actual plot-hole? Because that’s the only way Zelda can be related to both. 

[imexperiencinggrowthgetoverit]

something I realized just now

[askmerriauthor]

Hyrule's Future - Letting Go of the Past

ToTK lore chatter, mild spoilers below the line break.

I've mentioned it before, but something I really enjoy about both BoTW and ToTK is how they've addressed the timeline as a whole. The games basically scoop up all the events of the past titles, toss them into a blender, and dump out the rendered scraps into a big pile together. So it's become unclear exactly how much of the established lore is actually true and how much of the Legend of Zelda is just actual legend.

This has some interesting implications for how exactly Hyrule will grow going forward from the BoTW/ToTK point, especially considering Nintendo has confirmed that the BoTW-style games is what they want to aim for as a series standard. It also makes for a facet of story telling specific to these games' direction that I really enjoy. That, for all the importance of history and heritage in the Legend of Zelda, the way forward is letting go and accepting change.

There's a bit of a gag going that Link is essentially the Tony Hawk of Hyrule, in that just about nobody recognizes him and he's constantly being "mistaken" for the Legendary Hero Link. NPCs flat-out don't know who he is at all, or brush it off as a funny coincidence he "just happens to have the same name as the Hero", or even gaslight themselves into refusing to believe he could be the genuine article. Very few NPCs in the game actually know who Link is, what he looks like, or properly acknowledge what he's done.

A bit of the same happens for Zelda. While it seems that everyone knows who she is by reputation, if nothing else, everyone is also very easily fooled by the doppelganger Zelda running around causing chaos post-Upheaval. Zelda is essentially a new entity in post-Calamity Hyrule; everyone knew of her as a legendary figure holding back Calamity Ganon, but actually having her around as a flesh-and-blood person working to build a new future for Hyrule is a new thing for the general population. So much so that, for the youngest and newest generations of kids in Hyrule, they don't really hold interest or reverence for the past whatsoever.

Another thing we come across around ToTK is rumors. Things like the fabled "Master Gourd", or characters gossiping about legendary beasts, weapons, and ghost stories. People fear the notion of a vengeful spirit lurking in the wilds, or a man speculates that the ghosts of slain Gerudo haunt the alleys of their town. Others dismiss the very idea of ghosts outright as fanciful nonsense and "unscientific" when there are very clearly actual ghosts in existence within the setting. The establishment of a newspaper and the ability to quickly spread long-form written information across Hyrule is a new thing and welcomed eagerly by the citizenry, but it's up to intrepid reporters and researchers to find the information to report. And, as is shown in several quests, sometimes they get things completely wrong and end up utterly confusing the whole situation.

What this all culminates toward is a very clear indication that the lore of Hyrule and the literal legends of Zelda, in all their forms, is entirely unreliable narrative in-universe. How much of Hyrule's own past has been completely lost to time or disaster? How much of it has mutated through repetition or been exaggerated far beyond what it originally was? The events we've played through in previous titles have been pretty wild in many cases, often cartoonishly silly; were those events actually things that happened, or just outlandish retellings and mixed-up tales? Are the drastic tonal differences between "Twilight Princess" and "Wind Waker" a case of different times or were they simply the personal preference in delivery as told by a given narrator? Are the repeated instances of many characters sharing names and natures truly coincidental reappearances, or are they because a person became a symbol and popular story element that crossed over into different tales? There's a firm sense in ToTK that Hyrule is growing toward a new future of its own making and that the past, while very much an important part of the world's identity, is far from set in stone. That it shouldn't be given so much power and importance over the future that's yet to be seen.

In ToTK, the heroes and the citizenry are looking toward the future. They're building - not rebuilding, but starting new. Side quests like Cece's mayoral race emphasize the importance of making a sustainable balance between the old and new. Mattison's parents respect the old traditions of the Gerudo by letting their daughter go off to learn of her roots in Gerudo Town, even as it pains them to do so, and even as Gerudo Town itself is changing from its old ways. The established language itself is being updated as the new generation of Gerudo kids abbreviate it (much to the chagrin of some elderly Gerudo). Link, a man, is freely admitted to defy the Gerudo's core "no voe allowed" law because of his proven loyalty to their people - a boon that was denied a hero of the Gerudo in the past, as we learn from the side-quest exploring their history.

Throughout all the communities we see a shift from the old to the new without tossing out their roots. The Zora welcome new leadership and combining of communities. The Rito show a proven rise in the next generation to maintain their way of life. The Gorons work with their changing environment and industry, maintaining a firm inter-generational cooperation throughout. The Gerudo gradually open themselves up to greater interactions not just with men, but with the world in general, joining more into the core of Hyrule rather than secluding themselves to their old ways. The Sheikah - by far the most deeply rooted in traditional standards of all - are rapidly changing with the times and set themselves at the bleeding edge of social development. Paya taking the Sheikah in a new direction as their chief, Impa stepping aside for the greater good, Purah and Robbie and Josha recycling all the old Sheikah Tech in order to build new Skyview Towers and develop technology that everyone - not just Link - can use and benefit from. The Zonai culture itself holds core belief in proving one's potential in rites of passage, of growing and rising to challenges, of building and progressing by use of the foundations laid by those who came before. Even the Bargainer Statues, seemingly beyond-ancient spirits or gods who predate even the Zonai, are all about helping the lingering souls of the dead move on without judgment or criticism. In the past, we see Zelda, Mineru, and Rauru all surrender themselves to a necessary change, giving up what they knew and held dear, in order to help move toward a positive future for all even if they wouldn't be there to benefit from it themselves.

It's the villains and antagonists we meet who are stuck in the past or who can't see a sustainable way forward. The Horned Statue - a demon who was petrified by Hylia for its crimes - emphasizes that it proudly refuses to learn its lesson and thus remains a statue for all time. In Hateno Village, Cece and Reede are at extreme ends of valuing vapid, short-sighted progress and hollow, rigid tradition because of pride, even while lying to themselves and others about their true feelings on such things. Kohga and the Yiga Clan are straight-up trying to undermine Hyrule as a society and ultimately end the world itself, abusing the progress of technology and tradition alike to achieve those ends. But these are minor compared to the big man himself.

Ganondorf is very much an anchor on the ship of progress. He's not just stuck in the past; he's literally defined by it. He is the past and an outright denial of the future. His entire M.O. is establishing a state of unchanging chaos, as contradictory as that may sound, where nothing ever advances from the state he's put it into. He saw a flourishing utopian society as an affront - an effort to control him, a waste of "potential". Rather than join it and grow with it, he rebelled and destroyed it. His transformation into the Demon King and birthing of monsters into the world ensured a cyclical status quo of endless strife. Every Blood Moon, the monsters rise anew, undoing any efforts to purge them from the land. After he was sealed, his sole goal was to return to his heights of power. When he was challenged and defeated by Link and the Sages, he was so consumed by his attachment to the past that he literally threw away everything that made him who he was in order to try and retain that power. Ganondorf refuses to let Hyrule grow in any fashion and, in the end, his utter destruction is necessary in order for the world to have any hope of moving forward.

I like that as a theme. There's an emphasis on respect for the old and new alike. That it's important to understand one's history and roots, and that there's wonders to be found in the past. But that the future too holds so much, that change is inevitable. That it should be welcomed rather than scorned or feared, and that embracing that undeniable momentum is the way to thrive. That sometimes what we think we know isn't the truth and we need to be accepting of new ideas or corrections to our previously-established beliefs.

That digging in your heels and latching desperately to the past - to the lore, to the legends, to the canon - ultimately does more harm than good.

[ihavedonenothingright]

Small thing: going off the theory that all the Sheikah tech was dismantled because "of COURSE no one wants it around it did horrible damage for hundreds of years", which includes things like the shrine of resurrection, the towers, the Sheikah slate, etc, isn't that a smaller version of the Sheikah banishment? Instead of being buried, their technology is dismantled out of fear. You'd think they'd want to keep something as useful as the shrine of resurrection around, but nope, all Sheikah technology whatsoever: gone. I know a lot of fans accept that theory (I don't, but that's not the point), but I haven't seen anyone talk about this. It would mean the Sheikah are still feared in connection with Ganon, that all their technology is seen as unreliable and dangerous. Even the new technology we see in TOTK is built and developed in cooperation with Hylians; it's not Sheikah in origin, it's Purah and Robbie under Zelda's commission. Sheikah researchers studied this technology for a hundred years and all of a sudden it's gone? All of it? Can you imagine what a loss of history that would be?

Maybe none of the former researchers talk about it because the loss is too great.

[silvercaptain24]

WAIT SO DOES THAT MEAN

IF THE THING IS WHAT HAPPENED HOWEVER THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO WHICH I’M JUST GUESSING AT

DOES THAT MEAN THE REASON THERE’S NO MALE GERUDO IN BOTW IS BECAUSE GANONDORF IS UNDER THE CASTLE?!?

[offbrand-deltatraveler]

Something interesting I realized about Lost Gorondia (AKA a random theory about Goron history with literally zero evidence to back it up)

Massive spoilers for Tears of the Kingdom

While it is true that none of the temples look like Temples at all, that’s usually because they focus on looking more like Dungeons in a video game. Unlike the Fire Temple, which, considering there are Minecart tracks you ride all over the place and rooms that seemingly serve no purpose but to house pottery and old abandoned Chests, as well as the name “Lost Gorondia Rediscovered”, I think it’s pretty likely that this is actually where the Gorons of Ancient Hyrule used to live

Gorons are almost all miners, and all would be miners if there weren’t a need for a few of them to stay back and run other important businesses, so it makes sense that the Gorons would live in the Depths. And furthermore that during the creation of Calamity Ganon when the Miasma (Gloom, Malice, whatever floats your boat) begins to spread through the Depths, they would abandon it because Gloom Bad

Where would they have come out of if they managed to dig their way out of the Depths?

I ‘unno

And the Gorons are described by the Sage of Fire as “the Goron people”, which doesn’t sound like something you’d call the inhabitants of a city. He does use more modern-sounding phrases like “Little rock” too, but considering Gorons may as well be living rocks that’s probably just the way it sounds to us as humans that don’t live in Hyrule

[deplorablebeast]

Secret stones are 100% moon tears though, can we just-

Yeah.

[initiala]

I can’t believe I’m gonna Thanos-snap Gannondorf

[psychicninja90]

TOTK SPOILERS & SPECULATION....

So, I'm far enough in the game that Tulin is now the Sage of Wind, and I have found a few of the memories.

There are six sages from each race (wind, water, fire (?), and lightning) and then Mineru (sage of shadow? I haven't found the memory in which we meet her) and Sonia, until she passes (🥺😔). The modern equivalents are Tulin, Sidon, Riju, Yunobo (?) and then I'm guessing Paya and then Zelda. Link, the Hero, is in the center in Rauru's (the King (!) Of Light) place to stand opposite the Demon King, Ganondorf.

My question is, where are the Hero and Master Sword? The incarnation of Demise's hatred is there. The Goddess-blood royal is there. Where is the third piece of the Triforce??? Is Rauru the Hero because Sonia is the Goddess-blood princess/queen, and they are working together? (And together-together. Gotta love those zelink parallels)

Also, oh my gosh, Zelda, sweetheart, "forever changed" with the heavy implications of turning into a DRAGON?? There's got to be a way for her to turn back, right?? (The Recall power, maybe?)

[pocketseizure]

The sense I'm getting from the Tears of the Kingdom artbook is that the project was initially developed with the intention to allow the player to learn about the Zonai civilization through the ruins they left behind. The concept art of the sky islands showcases a range of unique designs, while the environmental concept sketches of the Depths and other underground areas is quite detailed and diverse.

Based on a few of the notes for the character designs, it seems that the developers ultimately decided to eliminate or simplify the elements of Tears of the Kingdom that weren't already present in Breath of the Wild. This is a shame if it's indeed the case, because it means that the underdeveloped lore and generic area design was a deliberate choice.

[im-animal-crossing-the-border]

I’ve seen this so many times and it won’t ever not be funny to me

[imexperiencinggrowthgetoverit]

WAIT WAIT WAIT

BLOOD CONNECTION

WHERE THE hyuck ARE SONIA AND RAURU'S KIDS?

IS IT MINERU'S KIDS?

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN

[askmerriauthor]

I'm still trying to puzzle out the timeline implications of ToTK, but I rather like what the story does for the overall LOZ timeline as a concept. Spoiler talk, so more after the break.

I've always liked the approach BoTW took where it basically gathered up all the games in one big bundle and said "maybe these happened, maybe they didn't, but it was like 10,000 years ago and it doesn't matter anymore". Literally making the previous Legend of Zelda games into legends in-universe. There's combined traces of all the games, be they direct references or sidelong allusions that make it seem like that element might've been lost in translation, or the version we originally saw was incorrect in the first place.

So far ToTK does seem to anchor certain concepts in stone, however, but others are very much brought into question.

Skyward Sword is Core Canon While the actual events of Skyward Sword in terms of its overall presentation are up to debate, there are facets of it that seem to be hard-baked into the game's lore now. Namely Fi and the divine origins of both Zelda as the incarnation of Hylia as well as the Master Sword. ToTK actively refers to the Master Sword as "she" and the sword makes Fi's prompting noise a number of times, so it's safe to say Fi's still in there after all this time.

The actual state of things with Demise, however, seems a bit less clear now. Skyward Sword told us a tale of how Demise - an original ancient evil demon from before the dawn of time - cursed Link and Zelda's bloodlines to always be in conflict with his reincarnations. The evil pollutant effect Demise had on the world, Malice, was overtly present and utilized in BoTW by Calamity Ganon. It was what brought on the end of Hylian civilization a century before the events of the game. But the overt parallels between Demise and ToTK Ganondorf raise the question of whether there ever was a Demise in the first place? Or was Demise an exaggeration of Ganondorf's ascension into the Demon King via the Secret Stone? Or is Ganondorf's nature as the Demon King directly the result of Demise and his curse?

There's also a mix up with Calamity Ganon to consider. Previously, I was under the impression that Calamity Ganon was the same OoT Ganondorf who'd eventually degraded over time and multiple revivals, turning into the mindless force of destruction we saw in BoTW. But ToTK makes it clear Ganondorf was perfectly fine, albeit dehydrated and locked beneath Hyrule Castle. Malice and Gloom are pretty obviously the same thing, and Gloom was freely seeping across the land even before the Upheaval occurred, so it's not like Ganondorf was fully contained even in his sealed state. While running around ToTK Hyrule, we often encounter Gloom Hands and a Phantom Ganon doppelganger. That gives me the impression that Calamity Ganon was just a similar phenomenon: as the time neared where the seal would break entirely, Ganondorf was able to exude enough force to manifest it and attack Hyrule on instinct. But any notions of Calamity Ganon being an individual itself made by the Hylians were misattributed.

Did OoT Actually Happen? Something very confusing/interesting in the flashbacks of ToTK is that it basically retells the events of OoT in a different frame. Ganondorf, the ruler of the Gerudo, deceiving the King of Hyrule by pretending to swear allegiance while in pursuit of an ancient, divine relic the Royal Family and the Sages hold safe. Called out by the young Princess Zelda. But Ganondorf succeeds in his efforts and Hyrule is thrown into an age of turmoil where monsters roam the world, only to be ultimately defeated by the efforts of the Sages and a foretold Hero in the distant future.

The events of Rauru sealing away Ganondorf were explicitly stated as The Imprisoning War, which was previously established as happening after OoT in an alternate timeline scenario where Link failed to stop Ganondorf. Given that Link didn't exist at all prior to Ganondorf's arrival and ascension into the Demon King, it feels to me as if ToTK is shifting OoT - and thus Majora's Mask - fully into legend. It also raises the question of whether there was ever a split Triforce, or if that too was just a misinterpretation of past events. The Triforce didn't feature in any way whatsoever within ToTK; it's not even mentioned or seen once. Ganondorf coveted and gained power through a completely different relic. In BoTW, Zelda seemed to innately have the complete Triforce by way of birth, passed down through her divine bloodline. Presumably Zelda still has it, or the Triforce itself is simply a symbolic manifestation of her divine powers outright rather than a physical relic that can be taken.

Who are Din, Nayru, Farore, and the Other Divines? So ToTK introduces the concept of "draconification" where devouring a Secret Stone turns a person into an immortal serpent dragon. We see this in practice in the game, and in BoTW we're introduced to a trio of such dragons who have names similar to those of the Three Goddesses. Mineru is very much aware of the process and what its consequences are, so that indicates that draconification was performed prior to her arrival in Hyrule. Is this meant to indicate that these three were once Zonai who turned into Dragons? Were they ever Goddesses to begin with, or was that also a legend that grew over time?

What does this make of the "other gods" in the setting, such as the Bargainer Statues or the Horned Statue? The Horned Statue is pretty up front about it being a Demon who was punished by Hylia for its acts, but the Bargainer Statues seem to be different. They're also all found nearby Hylia Statues and express a neutral view of good and evil, while supplying items that both embody and defy evil outright. They're also the source of the Dark Link outfit, which makes me wonder if they're intended to represent a sort of mirror/shadow aspect to Hylia. Not evil that opposes her (that's what Demise, Ganon, and the Primal Demons are for), but just a natural off-shoot. Hylia creates life while the Bargainer Statues manage death.

Soul-ar Powered Technology I can't be the only one who thinks Sheikah Tech was basically powered by the spirits of the dead after everything we've learned in ToTK, right? With the return of Poes (which were totally absent in BoTW), the blue flame furnaces that connect underground into what we now know as the Depths and the ancient Zonai refineries, Mineru's spirit being able to house itself inside the Purah Pad, and the obvious correlation between Zonai and Sheikah technologies?

[ihavedonenothingright]

Okay wait, who is the reincarnation of Hylia in the past Zelda is sent to? Is it just her? There's generally one in most generations---BOTW implies it's a known thing that the royal ladies have sealing powers even if they aren't all named Zelda, so where's our reincarnation of Hylia? Or is there none because Zelda was always intended to go back in time? Seems unlikely it's Sonia because she has time powers. Is it... Rauru?

Realistically it's probably just our Zelda and the reincarnation cycle is fickle, but I think it would be funny if Rauru was basically another Zelda. Hylia's gender-swapped fursona.

[darlingseraa]

Oh wow, I absolutely love your take on this theory!! Thank you for sharing, you've brought up some points I didn't even think of when I wrote my thoughts down, and they bring a whole new perspective on this conversation for me. That is really mindblowing!

GUYS I CAN'T BE THE ONLY ONE TO HAVE NOTICED, RIGHT ???

Ok so, I had this epiphany the other day and wanted to share it, but like, I forgor because if I don't do something I think of immediately in the moment, then I forget to do it. BUT, here we are.

I'm just gonna mark this down as a huge spoiler for The Legend of Zelda : Tears of the Kingdom, so if y'all don't want to be spoiled on some (albeit small) details from the game's canon, please do move on lol.

Okay so, as I was rewatching the cutscenes in Tears of the Kingdom the other day, I noticed that both Rauru and Mineru have this tear-shaped white mark on the bridge of their nose. Quite innocent, right? Maybe just a Zonai trait?

But then– then I realized they also have a third eye. On their foreheads.

Now, what really baffles me is, if you look closely at these screenshots (I believe Rauru's is taken from the official Collector's Edition Artbook, and Mineru's is straight from the game itself), then you'll also realize that both Rauru and Mineru's third eye have exactly three lashes.

Okay, now that that's out of the way, hear me out.

You know what other "race" in Hyrule displays these traits or make use of that sort of symbolism?

Yeah.

The Sheikah.

They're also the only "race" in Hyrule that doesn't appear in the flashbacks where we see all the Sages.

Now, it can and will certainly be argued that the Sheikah are not a seperate race from the Hylians and yeah, I completely agree with that (it's even stated in game in the profiles of the Sheikah characters, like Paya or Impa, that they are "Hylian (Sheikah)"). In a sense, even if they are the same race, they still belong to a different people or culture than the rest of the Hylian characters, and can therefore be considered "seperate". It was the case in Ocarina of Time where the Six Sages included both a Hylian (Zelda herself) and a Sheikah (Impa, as the Sage of Shadows, I believe).

So why not include a Sage who was part of the Sheikah tribe, like Nintendo did in Ocarina of Time?

Sure, I'm going off a super subtle detail here, but I have a theory and I will die on this hill if I must : I think the Zonai were actually the ancestors of the Sheikah tribe (and of the Royal Family of Hyrule, as Sonia mentions a "blood connection" between her and Zelda, as well as the fact that she sensed both her power over Time and Rauru's power over Light within Zelda).

Now, as I said, this theory of mine is based off a few small details, as well as off of the absence of the Sheikah in the distant past of Tears of the Kingdom. However, even if Nintendo haven't done this on purpose and the marks on Rauru and Mineru's noses are only meant to be decorative, I still think there's something there that we're just not seeing.

Either the Zonai are meant to be part of the Sheikah tribe's ancestry (which would, in turn, explain why the tribe has always been close to the Royal Family as they share common ancestors in both Hylians and Zonai), or the Sheikah were just like "Oh hey, that's a really cool idea for a logo. Wanna make that our tribe's symbol??" and their leader at the time was like "Yeah, let's go boooiiiiis" and that's that.

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Sorry for the long post! I just absolutely had to share. I can't be the only one to have seen this detail, right???