#tumbleton atrocities

[horizon-verizon]

Septon Eustace and Grand Maester Munkun both assert that Prince Daeron was sickened by all he saw and commanded Ser Hobert Hightower to put a stop to it, but Hightower’s efforts proved as ineffectual as the man himself. It is in the nature of smallfolk to follow where their lords lead, and Lord Ormund’s would-be successors had themselves fallen victim to avarice, bloodlust, and pride. Bold Jon Roxton became enamored of the beautiful Lady Sharis Footly, the wife of the Lord of Tumbleton, and claimed her as a “prize of war.” When her lord husband protested, Ser Jon cut him nigh in two with Orphan Maker, saying, “She can make widows too,” as he tore the gown from the weeping Lady Sharis. Only two days later, Lord Peake and Lord Bourney argued bitterly at a war council, until Peake drew his dagger and stabbed Bourney through the eye, declaring, “Once a turncloak, ever a turncloak,” as Prince Daeron and Ser Hobert looked on, horror struck.

Fire and Blood by GRRM, pg 495-496

[daeneryseastar]

fiction mimics reality in the sense that mary i is remembered as ‘bloody mary’ despite having only executed 300+ people during her reign as opposed to her father who executed 50,000+ people during his. cut to rhaenyra who is remembered as ‘maegor with teats’ because she raised taxes after tyland lannister hid the royal treasury right before she retook king’s landing; all while her half-brother aemond was complicit in massacring the riverlands and the wiping out of house strong, along with her *other* half-brother daeron being liable for the atrocities that are bitterbridge/both battles of tumbleton. funny how that works.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

On the "Choose a Side" Discourse

With HBO leaning veryyyy heavily into "pick a side" for their promos, the "no team" people are crawling out of the woodwork. I want to preface this post by saying that I'm not saying people shouldn't have favorite characters who aren't mine, nor that people should just be totally invested in fandom discourse.

I already made a post about the issues with the arguments of the "no team" people, so I'll just summarize my thoughts from that real quick. A majority of their arguments and metas are thinly veiled anti Rhaenyra thoughts. That's still true of this new wave of this group.

Now, one thing I will agree with them on is: GRRM did not write this story to be one of choose a side. However, that is not because the Blacks and the Greens are equally bad or the Targaryens are all evil. No, it's because the Greens were always in the wrong and GRRM makes this abundantly clear to us in F&B.

Let's look at some facts from the Dance. While male primogeniture is tradition, it's not the law; the king's word is law, something ASOIAF has established time and again. The Greens took the throne through underhanded ways. They left Viserys' body to rot for days while they prepared for Aegon's coronation to prevent Rhaenyra from learning and coming to KL. They forced the smallfolk to attend and most didn't cheer for Aegon, with some even calling for Rhaenyra while most were confused and angry.

Aemond drew first blood by killing the unarmed thirteen year old envoy, Lucerys Velaryon. A majority of the realm declared for Rhaenyra; 53 houses supported her, while only 28 supported Aegon. The Greens committed the greatest atrocities of the Dance: Aemond burning the Riverlands and Daeron massacring Tumbleton. They also committed the greater number of atrocities.

The Greens also lost the war. The Blacks weren't just fighting for Rhaenyra, they fought for her heirs as well. This is why they swore to her and Jacaerys; later for Aegon III after the deaths of his older brothers. The Black forces continued to fight after Rhaenyra's murder and took KL. Aegon was murdered by his own men when the Blacks were marching on KL; in other words, the Greens knew they were beat, so they killed Aegon in an attempt to save themselves. Since Aegon left no heirs aside from Jaehaera, Aegon III was crowned and married to Jaehaera. The Blacks won the war.

Aegon the Usurper's bloodline is destroyed with the deaths of Jaehaera and Gaemon Palehair. This is the final affirmation of the Greens being in the wrong. GRRM's books punish usurpers by wiping out their bloodlines; Maegor and Robert Baratheon being the most obvious examples. Aegon and all the Greens have no descendants, their bloodline is dead.

Rhaenyra's bloodline, on the other hand, continues all the way through to the main series. Daenerys Targaryen, the most powerful character in the series, is her descendant, as is Jon Snow (unconfirmed as of now in the books) who is another of the key five. Rhaenyra may have died, but her faction won the war and her bloodline will save the world through her two greatest descendants (alongside the rest of the key five).

The Dance of the Dragons is, ultimately, a story of the damage the patriarchy does and how misogyny is destructive to the world. The Dance caused the death of the dragons and a great loss of power for women in the realm. Queen consorts after Rhaenyra had markedly less power and there was a drop in female leaders of the great houses. The loss of the dragons caused the weakening of magic in the world as a whole.

The Dance isn't about who your favorite war criminal is, nor is it about the evil of the Targaryens. It's about misogyny; something HOTD seems to have forgotten. Even before they started pushing TB vs TG so hard, they still missed the point.

It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra isn't a perfect, or even a good, person. It doesn't matter that Rhaenyra is non-conforming, plays the political game, and exploits her father's favor. Rhaenyra could have been as pious and well-behaved as Naerys and the Greens still would have usurped her. Rhaenyra could have had children with Laenor, and still the Greens would have usurped her. HOTD tries to paint the usurpation as partially being on Rhaenyra and her choices, but nothing Rhaenyra could have done would have been good enough.

The Blacks are the protagonists of the Dance. Are they perfect? No. Are they heroes? No. GRRM loves his gray characters, the Blacks are no exception. If you people want a story with black and white morality and perfect protagonists, go read another book. Just because people aren't perfect and don't operate exclusively in what's right according to our modern standards doesn't mean they aren't the protagonists.

In conclusion: there isn't a TB vs TG discourse in the Dance because the Greens are the antagonists and completely in the wrong. The point of the Dance is that the misogyny of the Greens damaged the realm. Rhaenyra is the rightful queen, there is no actual argument for Aegon or any of his allies.

Rhaenyra is the rightful queen to Westeros, go cry to George if you don't like it.

[lya-dustin]

All is Bliss

Chapter 46

Cw:casual misogyny, slutshaming, doubke standards and poison

Gif by @alicentloyalist

Taglist:@mercedesdecorazon @darylandbethfanforever9 @sweethoneyblossom1 @alexandria-millie @ewanmitchellcrumbs @watercolorskyy

Aemma was seven moons along when word of Harrenhal being retaken and sightings of Caraxes near the Saltpans had been reported to Aemond.

Replenished with men and supplies the westerners and riverlords decided that instead of going home with their dead and infirm, they would fight on.

Apparently Aemond and Criston are butting heads over this, Criston wants to march and regain what the greens lost while Aemond would rather fortify what they still have in case Daemon includes Nettles and Addam in his next attack.

That was a month ago, Aemma had not heard from him and neither had anyone else. No raven has come since Harrenhal had gone back to green hands. Although Seasmoke had been spotted heading south, towards Tumbleton where the greens won the day thanks to the two betrayers.

A suicide mission, one worse than Aemond’s.

Why in seventh hell would sensible and loyal Addam do such a thing is beyond her. Addam had far too much sense to abscond with his half-sister with their dragons across the Narrow Sea and yet he is going into Tumbleton where it has literally descended into anarchy because apparently loving murder, raping and pillaging is something the greens have in common with Hugh Hammer and Ulf White.

“The way men think with their cocks never ceases to amaze me.” Jena said as they played a card game in her rooms.

Aemma’s confinement had begun a moon ago, most women only left public life in the last two moons, but given her mother died in her seventh moon it was better to be safe than sorry.

As much as she hated it, she understood the necessity of it and tried her best to be a model patient.

Even if the sight of the birthing stool unnerved her and the young queen demanded it be covered with linen so she could pretend it wasn’t there.

“They act as if they didn’t hide from my father until someone with a bigger dragon came.” Baela snorted. “By the way is my betrothed in that losing fight or the other one?”

“Robert Rowan was captured, and his father turned to Aegon’s side, he won’t be in any more losing fights except maybe the one with Prince Jacaerys’ ghost.” Jena answered with a chuckle.

She was their window to the outside world, thank the gods Ironrod trusted her with his life.

Robert was a good and strong looking man; his great aunt had been Harwin’s mama and gave him a resemblance to Jace. If Jace had been allowed to grow broader and had thick curly hair and could lift an ox cart with ease, that is.

A good replacement, Aegon had said when he shot down the suggestion Baela be wed to his widowed father instead.

“I wish I could know if he is worth marrying, Aegon seemed nice enough and look what you’re stuck with.” Baela said tossing her cards after getting a bad hand.

Speaking of Aegon and their marriage, it had improved now that his cock doesn’t work.

He is actually trying to know her as a person and not a bedmate he must breed out of duty.

And because it is the least Aemma could do, she has found he is not as terrible as initially thought.

He has committed his fair share of atrocities, but it seems to have stemmed from never having faced any real consequence in his life.

Until now that the gods cursed him with impotence and an indifferent wife that is.

Aemma never thought she might face the issue of actually liking her husband. Made her secret marriage to his younger brother all the more dangerous. Really, the world had fucking mad.

“Agreed, if only there was a way you could try it all first. Like getting to ride a horse before you purchase it.” the young queen said, taking a card from the deck. Her hand is quite modest, but even with a winning hand Jena would mop the floor with them.

“Only if you ride this horse, you get branded a whore and, in some lands, fucking stoned to death for it.” Jena points out reminding Baela not to get any ideas. “If you wish to know what sort of man he is, we weasel it out of his household and former paramours, lucky for you, I know just the slut.”

“Please tell me that slut is you.” Baela looks far too intrigued by Jena’s stories.

It is not.

Aemma should not be surprised she means Alys Rivers.

“You summoned me, your grace.” The witch comes just as Aegon goes to have lunch with his mother to go after her taking over court duties while she is in confinement.

Once Alicent would have been overjoyed at the prospect of Aegon and Aemma getting along. Back when everything hinged on them being happy and in love so they could take Rhaenyra’s claim through her only trueborn child.

“Did you know she gets a rash from dandelions like I do?” Aegon mentions as he eats enough macaroni for two. Just as Laenor did, he shares the cravings with his wife even if the child is clearly not his, a small consolation.

“Yes, I remember from the instructions sent by the maester for the wedding feast.” Alicent answered, hoping her tone was enough to get him to stop talking about his wife.

He is besotted with her, the traitorous whore who took two sons from her and killed the third.

To think she had once felt sorry for her, that she had seen herself reflected in her and wished her success only to have her kindness thrown back at her with her defiance.

Gods, she should have just given her dandelion tea the moment Criston brought her here. Aemond was Aegon’s heir anyways, there was no true need for Aemma to live when Criston’s strategy failed.

“Have there been any ravens from your brother?” she asks knowing the answer to it.

Her sullen little boy was dead already, she could feel it in her bones.

Dead because of Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra was not content with all that she had taken from her and lived to torment her through her daughter.

“No, none. We have sent some riders, but there has been no ravens nor news since they arrived at the Crossroads.” Aegon’s face turned serious, defeat was tasted in the air and would come soon. He had cut back on his drinking and yet this news had him return to his old habits. “The Blacks are closing in on the God’s Eye, the North is marching south with Lord Stark, who’s uncle tried to usurp him as you had me usurp my sister, by the way. Oh, and the Arryns hired a fucking fleet from Braavos because Jeyne Arryn had her cousins and uncles try to usurp her as well, and even if she hates Daemon, she hates us more for killing her fucking cousins.”

Alicent never thought he would have the audacity to blame her for this.

“I have done everything for you, do not dare be ungrateful to your mother.” Alicent warned her son and yet he did not stop.

Didn’t stop drinking nor speaking these things that told her he would send her away the moment the whore gave birth to the blasted son she made happen.

“For me?!” he laughed incredulously, tossing his fork on the plate and getting his cane to leave, “For me?! Oh, mama, you wanted this crown, not me.”

“I only wanted to protect you, to keep you safe from your sister and her beast of a husband. I could only save you if I gave you the crown that was yours by rights.” The queen argued with him.

Why were they so blind? Why did they think her the monster when she killed those monsters for them?

She made deals with the Stranger and sold her soul for him; how could he be so blind to all she sacrificed for him?

“I was fucking fine with Rhaenyra being queen and Aemma after her. I know damn well I was not meant to be king; father knew that. We were safe from her because she’d never hurt her own child nor her grandchildren nor her own brothers and sister even after Driftmark, that is why father wed me to Aemma, to protect us after his death.” He idolizes Viserys now, pretends his father loved him and cared for him when the man stopped paying attention to him the moment Rhaenyra became with child. “The ones who put us in danger were you and grandfather. Now Daeron and Aemond are probably fucking dead, your father rots in hell as he deserved, and I am a fucking eunuch who needs his brother to fornicate with my wife so you could keep the power you envied Rhaenyra for having.

The least you can do now, is stop pretending you did all this for us.”

She lost him, she’s lost her son to someone worse than Rhaenyra’s whore daughter.

Alicent lost Aegon to the ghost of the man who took her innocence and her youth and her joy of living.

And it breaks her heart.

“Get out.” The queen turns away and bit back her tears as her golden son hobbles away. “You think me the monster in this story, and I suppose I am no longer your mother.”

And yet when her son vomits the wine in the hall, Alicent, in her mother’s worry, is the first to come to his aid.

“Mother’s here, sweetling. Mama’s here.” She says as he continues to spew the wine until he loses consciousness.

Poison.

Someone poisoned her son.

[lemonhemlock]

i saw someone in the alicent tag call alicent stans "vile" for defending/liking her because alicent apparently laughed when she heard of women and girls (inc septas) getting raped at tumbleton in Fire and Blood.

but like i looked up the passage, and maybe i'm coping here, but it doesn't really say that? the passage doesn't say whenever alicent was told those specific things occurred and then laughed. just that two of the Blacks dragons (forgot their name) turned on them.

obviously if alicent did do that, then that is completely inexcusable l. but i think that's kind of the point george is trying to make about war? that it will make people do/say inexcusable things, all the while believing they're fighting for a right cause and while they may be justified in that, it doesn't take away the victims along the way? i don't believe the alicent at the beginning of the dance or the years before would be callous enough to laugh at such horrors, but the alicent at that point has experienced the trauma of b & c, her daughter tormented with grief because of it, and her other grandson viciously killed. not to mention apparently both she and helaena were subjected to abuse under rhaenyra thanks to mysaria (but tbh I'm not sure how true that is?)

like this is coming from the same team that thinks blood and cheese was a justified response to Luke's death where a 6 yo was threatened with ****? something that the blacks/mysaria/daemon chose to do and could have chosen not to do in the first place, but alicent laughing at news of a battle where she apparently heard of all these atrocities isn't? like be morally consistent

I also don't get their argument because just because you might find a character sympathetic, doesn't mean you defend everything they say and do, for pete's sake.

sorry for the long ask and if mixed some info up lol

Meanwhile, on the western shore of Blackwater Bay, word of battle and betrayal at Tumbleton had reached King’s Landing. It is said the Dowager Queen Alicent laughed when she heard. “All they have sowed, now shall they reap,” she promised. On the Iron Throne, Queen Rhaenyra grew pale and faint, and ordered the city gates closed and barred; hencefoth, no one was to be allowed to enter or leave King’s Landing. “I will have no turncloaks stealing into my city to open my gates to rebels,” she proclaimed. Lord Ormund’s host could be outside their walls by the morrow or the day after; the betrayers, dragon-borne, could arrive even sooner than that.

this is the passage? good god. she's bitching out bc the blacks took a massive L.

also you make three very good points in that 1. these characters will change as they undergo massive trauma, so that they are not going to be the nicest people at the end of the story, but very broken versions of themselves; 2. you don't have to agree and defend everything a character does just bc you like them or find them interesting or charismatic, my goodness and 3. the hypocrisy is jarring as the blacks commit their fair share of fucked-up shit so this is literally the spidermans-pointing-at-each-other meme, BUT signaling out alicent for a mean girl comment is particularly clownish

[warsofasoiaf]

I always likened Daeron's burning of Bitterbridge to Daenerys crucifying the slavers: both are reactions of extreme anger against horrible injustices towards children, especially with Daenerys feeling like "an avenging dragon" when she gave the order. What was really missing was a note about Daeron feeling remorse afterwords. This WOULD explain his discomfort with the atrocities at Tumbleton and give some growth, but once again we don't get much of his (or any other) viewpoints. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's possible, but we would need more info, and importantly, GRRM's done that plot beat so he knows that. I just have to accept the Dance as the wasted potential it was.

-SLAL

[horizon-verizon]

Do you think Aemond has developed real feelings for Alys? Did Aemond and Alys really get married?

EDIT (Upon rereading):

Not really.

Him for her, yeah there were feelings where he felt more powerful and maybe even more stable with her that came after he saw her.

Her for him? IDK about actual love, maybe affection. I think she'd be too older and wiser to to be like Daenerys with Khal Drogo (we have to remember she was 14 when she married Khal Drogo, so Stockholm was very strong there) so I can't say she actually fell for him or developed strong feelings of trust for him, but I definitely see it coming from him.

He'd rely on her possibly real visions, and instincts, starting out or semi-looking forward to her war prize status on elevating his own as a warrior. It's also possible that the war prize thing was his way of claiming back power from a feminine power/figure against how Rhaenyra "takes" his and his family through him claiming what he thinks is a powerful woman--and he doesn't even have to have known she was a seer to think her powerful. That she was so attractive or had a certain appeal when no other woman ever appealed to him.

Still, the continuing war prize-captor context is too much for there to be true love. Feelings could be there, but did they develop into real care and love for each other? As I've indicated below in the past answer, "no".

PAST Answer:

No to both.

Aemond might have been "enamored" or sexually attracted to her and maybe even the idea of an older woman at his beck and call, but I can't really believe that he grew romantic feelings for her so much as possessive ones. 

That he is both very willing to take someone after killing their entire family’s male line and then take Alys as his personal  bed slave speaks to a dangerous entitlement that Jon Roxton sets up for us when we see him at Tumbleton:

Bold Jon Roxton became enamored of the beautiful Lady Sharis Footly, the wife of the Lord of Tumbleton, and claimed her as a “prize of war.”. When her lord husband protested, Ser Jon cut him nigh in two with Orphan Maker, saying, “She can make widows too,” as he tore the gown from the weeping Lady Sharis.

(”Rhaenyra Triumphant”)

Alys also specifically says “I have the dragon’s bastard” when Sabitha Frey recaptures Harrenhal. Perhaps they got married when he got her back, but we’d need evidence or strong suggestions for him having come out of hiding to marry Alys before he met up with Daemon.

Also, remember that he promised to marry one of Borros Baratheon’s daughters, Floris I believe? We’d have to believe that Alys capable of hyponitizing Aemond, and while that may sound great for her survivial, we’d need strong evidence or suggestion of such unbiased from Gyldayn’s/societal framing. The Targ-Baratheon marriage was part of the deal with Borros for his support, and Aemond is consistently willing to take advantage of his privileges without having to do much effort he isn’t already willing to put in.

Thus, I’m inclined to believe he would not marry her.  I believe that Alys just said that to protect herself and her son in her moment of spectacle. It’s part of the show:

[horizon-verizon]

As the singers tell it, Lord Roderick was bloody from head to heel as he came on, with splintered shield and cracked helm, yet so drunk with battle that he did not even seem to feel his wounds. Ser Bryndon Hightower, Lord Ormund’s cousin, put himself between the northman and his liege, taking off the Ruin’s shield arm at the shoulder with one terrible blow of his longaxe…yet the savage Lord of Barrowton fought on, slaying both Ser Bryndon and Lord Ormund before he died. Lord Hightower’s banners toppled, and the townsfolk gave a great cheer, thinking the tide of battle turned. Even the appearance of Tessarion across the field did not dismay them, for they knew they had two dragons of their own…but when Vermithor and Silverwing climbed into the sky and loosed their fires upon Tumbleton, those cheers changed to screams. It was the Field of Fire writ small, Grand Maester Munkun wrote. Tumbleton went up in flame: shops, homes, septs, people, all. Men fell burning from gatehouse and battlements, or stumbled shrieking through the streets like so many living torches. Outside the walls, Prince Daeron swooped down upon Tessarion. Pate of Longleaf was unhorsed and trampled, Ser Garibald Grey pierced by a crossbow bolt, then engulfed by dragonflame. The Two Betrayers scourged the town with whips of flame from one end to the other. Ser Roger Corne and his men chose that moment to show their true colors, cutting down defenders on the town gates and throwing them open to the attackers. Lord Owain Bourney did the same within the castle, driving a spear through the back of Ser Merrell the Bold. The sack that followed was as savage as any in the history of Westeros. Tumbleton, that prosperous market town, was reduced to ash and embers. Thousands burned, and as many died by drowning as they tried to swim the river. Some would later say they were the fortunate ones, for no mercy was shown the survivors. Lord Footly’s men threw down their swords and yielded, only to be bound and beheaded. Such townswomen as survived the fires were raped repeatedly, even girls as young as eight and ten. Old men and boys were put to the sword, whilst the dragons fed upon the twisted, smoking carcasses of their victims. Tumbleton was never to recover; though later Footlys would attempt to rebuild atop the ruins, their “new town” would never be a tenth the size of the old, for the smallfolk said the very ground was haunted.

Fire and Blood by GRRM, pg 484-485

[horizon-verizon]

Whilst King’s Landing quailed in terror, the foes they feared had yet to advance a foot toward the city, for King Aegon’s loyalists found themselves leaderless, beset by division, conflict, and doubt. Ormund Hightower lay dead, along with his cousin Ser Bryndon, the foremost knight of Oldtown. His sons remained back at the Hightower a thousand leagues away, and were green boys besides. And whilst Lord Ormund had dubbed Daeron Targaryen “Daeron the Daring” and praised his courage in battle, the prince was still a boy. The youngest of Queen Alicent’s sons, he had grown up in the shadow of his elder brothers, and was more used to following commands than giving them. The most senior Hightower remaining with the host was Ser Hobert, another of Lord Ormund’s cousins, hitherto entrusted only with the baggage train. A man “as stout as he was slow,” Hobert Hightower had lived sixty years without distinguishing himself, yet now he presumed to take command of the host by right of his kinship to Queen Alicent. Lord Unwin Peake, Ser Jon Roxton the Bold, and Lord Owain Bourney stepped forward as well. Lord Peake could boast descent from a long line of famous warriors, and had a hundred knights and nine hundred men-at-arms beneath his banners. Jon Roxton was as feared for his black temper as for his black blade, the Valyrian steel sword called Orphan-Maker. Lord Owain the Betrayer insisted that his cunning had won them Tumbleton, that only he could take King’s Landing. None of the claimants was powerful and respected enough to curb the bloodlust and avarice of the common soldiers. Whilst they squabbled over precedence and plunder, their own men joined freely in the orgy of looting, rape, and destruction. The horrors of those days cannot be gainsaid. Seldom has any town or city in the history of the Seven Kingdoms been subject to as long or as cruel or as savage a sack as Tumbleton after the Treasons. Without a strong lord to restrain them, even good men can turn to beasts. So was it here. Bands of soldiers wandered drunkenly through the streets robbing every home and shop, and slaying any man who tried to stay their hands. Every woman was fair prey for their lust, even crones and little girls. Wealthy men were tortured unto death to force them to reveal where they had hidden their gold and gems. Babes were torn from their mothers’ arms and impaled upon the points of spears. Holy septas were chased naked through the streets and raped, not by one man but by a hundred; silent sisters were violated. Even the dead were not spared. Instead of being given honorable burial, their corpses were left to rot, fodder for carrion crows and wild dogs.

Fire and Blood by GRRM, pg 495

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I will never understand the "both sides are bad" people. Like, first off, GRRM himself has a clear idea over who is right (hint: it's the team whose line was not wiped out). If the fucking author has decided who is right and who is wrong, then why do people think they know better?

Second, one way to know if one team is as bad as the other is knowing the motivations of both sides. TB wants to reclaim the throne for the woman whom the past king declared heir and her descendants. TG wants to usurp the declared heir and ensure women aren't allowed to inherit the throne. These are the basic motivations of both sides. Wow, I wonder which team we should root for if we're not misogynists?

Let's also look at the actions of both teams. Now, we know that in the book and the show, the Greens declared war first; Alicent demanding Rhaenyra be disinherited after Aegon's birth/the green dress at the anniversary feast in the books and Alicent's green dress at Rhaenyra's wedding. We also know that in the book and show, Alicent spent her children's childhoods, particularly Aegon and Aemond's, teaching them that Rhaenyra and her children were inferior. Lucerys did cut Aemond's eye, but that was only after Aemond was threatening potentially lethal harm to his brother(s).

Now we're not even going to go into how the greens ran KL, but I will fast forward to the actual usurpation. The Greens were the ones who usurped the rightful heir, Rhaenyra. There was no law concerning inheritance, and women inherited the seats of both the Great and lesser houses. So the Greens did commit treason. And to top off this treason, the Greens also drew first blood when Aemond killed Lucerys.

During the Dance itself, the Greens sent an assassin (Arryk Cargyll) after Rhaenyra and/or her children, executed any lords who didn't declare for them, sacked Duskendale, barred the smallfolk from fleeing KL, burned the Riverlands through Aemond, massacred Tumbleton through Daeron, were hated by the smallfolk (Aegon and Aemond), wasted or stole the gold from the Crown's treasury, invited the Triarchy into Westeros causing the sack of Spicetown, planned to have Aegon the Younger castrated, and Aegon was murdered by his own supporters.

The Blacks sent B&C to assassinate Jaehaerys (without Rhaenyra's say-so), took KL and employed a harsh tax, sought out and executed green supporters, allied with Dalton Greyjoy who pillaged the coasts, declared Addam Velaryon a traitor, ordered Nettles' execution, and continued fighting after Rhaenyra's death.

For the sake of time, I've only listed the war crimes/atrocities/unpopular choices done by the teams. But anyway, let's look at these lists, who exactly caused the most harm and actively sought to start this war? The answer is the Greens, end of story.

So no, there is no actual grounds for "both sides are equally bad". Disliking the feudal system and the harm it does to the common people is one of the points of F&B. However, you can dislike and not support feudalism while acknowledging that the one of the teams (the Greens) was more in the wrong and more of a danger to the realm than the other. Being "team smallfolk" doesn't work when you're refusing to acknowledge that one team was actually better for the smallfolk than the other. The Blacks were not only better liked by the smallfolk, but they also committed far less atrocities that destroyed the lives of thousands and didn't start the fucking war in the first place.

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

On Daeron

Daeron "The Daring" Targaryen is often heralded as being the most stable of Alicent's children and even fairly well adjusted. I disagree with this idea. We know very little about Daeron from the book, and what we do know doesn't paint a very stable picture.

We know Daeron was born around the same time as Jacaerys, making them the same age. Viserys hoped raising them together would help heal the rift between the two families, he was wrong. Daeron grew to have a great rivalry with Jace, and the forced proximity only grew his and his older brothers' hatred of the Velaryons. He was sent to Oldtown when he was twelve to squire for Lord Ormund Hightower, and there he stayed until the Dance began.

So already we've debunked one of the popular headcanons I've seen written in fics. Daeron wasn't the "nice brother", he hated the Velaryons just as much as Aegon and Aemond. We also know that he didn't get away from Alicent and Otto's plotting when he got to Oldtown, if anything it was exacerbated. Daeron was now in the snake's nest, his life now completely devoted to the anti-Rhaenyra ideas his mother was devoted to.

Once the Dance began, Daeron helped win some battles for the Greens, but was purely the puppet of Ormund, never leaving his army. Then came Tumbleton. When Daeron came Lady Caswell and her husband's land, he mercilessly burned it to the ground and massacred the people. He did try to get Lord Hobert Hightower, who had succeeded Lord Ormund when he died during this battle, to stop the brutal sacking of the town, but he was ineffective.

After this, there was much turmoil in the ranks of the Hightower army, as Aemond was dead and Aegon was missing. There were arguments over succession and Daeron supported a plot to kill Ulf White and Hugh Hammer. Before this could happen, Ser Addam Velaryon attacked and killed Ulf and Hugh along with their dragons, dying in the process with Seasmoke. Daeron was killed when his tent collapsed on top of him when it caught fire.

Now what do we learn from these events? Daeron can be just as cruel as his siblings, raining fire down on the innocent smallfolk of Tumbleton. We also know that at sixteen, he had less control over his troops than Jace did. Daeron is not any better than the rest of TG, yes he's younger, but he committed atrocities and hated Rhaenyra and her family simply because he viewed them as inferior.

[horizon-verizon]

Now that they’re turning Hugh Hammer into a more sympathetic character (he has a wife, a sick daughter, and they desperately looking for money), are we all ready for HOTD to justify his defection to the Greens and for the sack of Tumbleton to be whitewashed & watered down and not portrayed as one of the worst atrocities in the history of Westeros ?

Where exactly is this coming from?! Can we not?! Not every single bad guy needs to be justified! (F&B quotes below)

Hopefully, this will not be HotD's decision.....

[horizon-verizon]

About Dalton Greyjoy [16 years old] and Some Atrocities/War Crimes in the Dance (F&B)

*EDITED POST* (4/9/24)

Green stans will wax poetic about how Rhaenyra and Daemon “showed their true colors” and became “Maegor” in just offering Dalton to do "whatever he wanted" by encouraging him to direct his ironborn chaos to their green enemy/their allies (which later came as Dalton choosing to rape/pillage Lannisport). And the blacks did encourage Dalton to do that...AND the greens thought of doing "more" by having him as one of their own council.

The greens were asked him to join and use his ships against Corlys’ and to become the master of ships to replace Tyland Lannister, who became the master of coin ("The Blacks and the Greens"):

This occurs before the black council, if that matters.

("The Blacks and the Greens"):

("The Red Dragon and the Gold"):

And:

If the ironborn are “nortoriously fickle”; ASoIaF fans know what ironborn are like; and the greens would know what these ironborn are like through their knowledge of them through books and stories even from Aegon I and Westeros before Aegon I; and thus they also all knew about Dalton Greyjoy the man himself and his reputation of collecting salt wives from warring and pillaging like they’re bullions -- then the greens also knew that the ironborn/Dalton would eventually, if not immediately, pillage any town/territory of the blacks if he had the will to (and he would have). Yet when Rhaenyra or Dameon decide to use Dalton’s/ironborn bloodlust and let him do what he would have done under the greens, she’s THE bad guy? Once again, the greens don’t mind that he would have done this; it’s useful to them, actually, to have him do this to any black-protected land/people. The greens are not “for the people”/commoners/nonnobles.

Just as the greens (Otto and Alicent and the small council for them) sought out Dalton to use him and win over the blacks, the blacks sought him for the same reasons. Both sides sought him out and seemed to accept that he would destroy/pillage towns and hurt the common folk or wealthy families. With this in mind, Daemon and Rhaenyra, I argue, saw the inevitable and saw how Dalton would have been used against him, and just knew that moves had to be made for protection+advantage vs later worse trouble/disadvantage. Not to rah-rah justify the blacks' actions her and just to make a point about the groups' strategies and countermoves as they were, if they hadn’t made a more interesting offer for Dalton, they would have been in the greens’ shoes. And the greens stans would have used this as proof of how dumb and inept Rhaenyra was, how unfit she is as a ruler. So really, she’s damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t in their eyes as all women who in some way majorly disrupt the patriarchal order are.

Daeron Targaryen--the same boy that many people of both sides, claim was a good person or the only good green--willfully let his men rape and pillage the town of Bitterbridge in thinking that Lady Caswell either killed his nephew Maelor, or allowed it. And he couldn’t/didn’t stop the sack and rape of Tumbleton. Even one of the extolled men (Jon Roxton) under him killed the lord of Tumbleton, and took the lord’s wife as his war prize/sex slave right in front of him and Daeron did nothing. Whether he was appalled or not. And in both of these sacks/pillages, young girls were raped. “Little girls”, the text explicitly says. 

Aemond explicitly kills all the male Strongs -- man and child -- in front of all the survivors in a show of power and suspecting Larys after Rhaenyra takes King’s Landing, while Daemon took Harrenhal with no such atrocities. 

Aemond also razed countless riverland towns and villages just to draw out Rhaenyra. Daemon did none of that.

BTW, this shows how a 16 year old could victimize people much older than him. To all those who want to be like “but Aemond was a kid”.

So was Lucerys, and Lucerys was way younger than Aemond, but Aemond killed him, performed genocide, took a war prize in the about-20-years-older Alys Rivers, razed several castles and villages, etc.

Stay mad, green stans.