#us not being viewed as viable love interests affects our real world relationships (or lack thereof)

[bookishfeylin]

I read something you said and you put into words what I've been struggling to verbalize for a while. I'm a bi brown woman, and always happy for representation. But it bothered me that Fandom insists black and brown women are always gay to push them out of the way for a white ship, or white authors (in this case SJM), lazily slapping on queer on a woc (Emerie) for brownie points. I'm not saying men loving us validates us, or that we need them to, but it is weird that a lot of media refuses to put woc into loving relationships with men. You saying that it says "woc aren't deserving of love from men" was finally what I was looking for to describe it. So thank you.

Hi nonny! I think you're talking about either this or this post? But either way, you're very welcome, though before I fully answer this ask, I want to add the disclaimer here that I'm straight and cis, though I've also seen many LGBTQ+ POC complain about this phenomenon too, like @positively--speculative.

Firstly: Of course LGBTQ+ POC need representation, and deserve it. I don't want anyone who reads this to think otherwise. Representation matters. But this is a nuanced conversation that needs to happen.

The problem is that many white authors and their fandoms want to seem "woke" and "diverse" without actually caring about their diverse characters. So they'll make the POC the token gay and sideline them so they can focus on the white (usually cishet) ship. They won't develop the character or give them a personality beyond their race and sexuality, half of the time don't even bother to give them a love interest or even a relevant love story with screen time***, and mainly use them as little more than a background prop for the story of the white ship. @positively--speculative has discussed how white fandom did this with Valkyrie after Thor Ragnarok came out: white fandom claimed Thorkyrie couldn't be shipped because it "ruined" Val's bisexuality. Never mind that there's no other woman in Thor Ragnarok that Valkyrie can be reasonably shipped with, apparently we just don't deserve to see Val in love at all! (I recommend checking out all her posts tagged Thorkyrie if you want more of her--a Black bisexual woman's--perspective, on the matter). And Sarah J Maas is a big offender for doing the same to her WOC.

As you and I both said, a large part of it is people being uncomfortable with WOC being the romantic interest of men (this is especially true of ships that involve Black women. A lot of the time fandom considers the Black woman to be an "independent lesbian" who doesn't need romantic love from a man, so her male love interest should be with [insert popular white character here]). What it ultimately boils down to is racism, and us not being seen as viable love interests worthy of romance (from men).

But many people simply don't want to admit that, and merely switch to the 'this woc is a lesbian' game. And it sucks, doing a disservice to all the marginalized people involved.

***or they're fetishized.

[taekooktimeline]

Mint Choco: Sara’s Take

I take full responsibility for this controversial analysis 

Mid August 2018 (filmed) - As part of a run episode, BTS engaged in a heated debate. The topic: mint chocolate, in favour or against its commercialization. Members were separated depending on whether they liked mint chocolate or not. Jimin and Tae were on the fence about it - neither liked nor disliked the taste - but ended up in the “dislike it” team. This is all true, they were actually grouped on the basis of their relationship with mint choco - how they really felt about the ice-cream. They were NOT grouped by any other secret criteria. This is extremely important to remember. However, I believe there was a hidden motive for this debate and that it wasn’t a coincidence that they chose food as the topic (preference-oriented), especially one that is only enjoyed by a minority of society. The topic had been pre-planned along with the ending and final consensus. At the end, Yoongi - as the moderator with the prepared cards - very clearly said: “We don’t want to say that someone is wrong and someone is right, we just want to take one more step towards a more peaceful world”. After that cue, they then effortlessly changed their attitude, agreeing to respect & allow mint choco as long as both sides were considerate of each other. Jimin also said: “The reason we were having the discussion was to make the world a better place”, sounding like they had all been instructed about how they should lead and end the debate, walking them through the scheme. Seems quite purposeful and deep. 

Their arguments were specifically suited for the mint choco debate, but the nature of the chosen topic made them have obvious parallelisms with the most common and basic arguments used in LGBTQ discussions. Of course, they are not interchangeable if we take details into account, but they are if we only focus on the general ideas. These parallelisms with food are frequently used in real arguments by many LGBTQ individuals / supporters where they bring up such comparisons. In sum, I believe they were arguing about mint choco with the sole purpose of teaching a lesson of tolerance, respect and inclusion of minorities with different preferences as part of some hidden pro-LGBTQ activism (since it’s taboo to be straightforward about it). This doesn’t make any of the members “homophobic” by any means because as I said, they were divided according to their food preferences. They were also playing a part because even if they personally didn’t like mint choco, none of them wanted to ban it in real life (outside of the debate they respected other’s taste to begin with) but they were acting as if they did want to ban it in order for the debate to be possible. I will link their pro & anti-mint choco arguments with pro & anti-lgbtq arguments - although comparisons are never intended to fit 100% - as well as point out and give insight into a comment that could be a direct connection between both topics, but please, don’t be scandalized about it because I clearly explained the situation. NON OF THEM ARE HOMOPHOBIC, even if there’s a hidden driving force. Carefully reread this introduction if you find yourself confused or infuriated by the analysis. At this point I’m not responsible for misunderstandings. If you are too young beware because this might not be suited for you. 

The debate starts with Jk trying to make the opposite team empathize with mint choco lovers. He knows they are few people but if they completely get rid of it, what about them? This can be compared to equal marriage / rights.

The opposite team distances themselves from the issue. Basically, something like: “What do we have to do with it? That’s not our problem”. A typical attitude adopted by society. (*Reminder: they are playing parts and actually talking about mint choco during the entire debate. There is just an underlying double meaning).

Jk gets political and demands a solution. He thinks it’s their right.

A comparison -

He then makes a solid point: you’re not obligated to experience it even if it’s included as an option.

Comparison -

The opposition wants to force their own views and erase / prohibit what they personally dislike (*Reminder).

Comparison -

Definition of intolerance:

The minority thinks it’s a forced opinion.

Comparison -

Mint choco team bring back up their prior argument-

The MC shows bias towards the minorities. “You shouldn’t criticize them”, he says.

Opposition questions if it’s as simple as not partaking of it if not interested. Jk continues by reasoning that if it’s not available / facilitated then minorities have no means of accessing it as they can’t make it on their own. Again, can be compared to equal marriage.

Opposition start talking about their own personal differing taste - which coincides with the majority’s - and try to use it as a valid argument to push out the variation that they don’t align with by saying “I don’t think it makes sense”. This can be compared to heterosexuality (a liking for the opposite sex/gender coupled with a dislike / distaste / unattraction to the same gender/sex) versus homosexuality (the other way around) and the confusion it can elicit in unfamiliarezed or closed minded people.

The opposition adds the visual aspect to it. They think it’s unpleasant to look at (*Reminder). This is comparable with the known fact that a great number of people feel or even express disgust when they see any type of homosexual affection.

Minority team differs.

Comparison -

Opposition continues -

Comparison -

Minority team interjects saying it’s a prejudiced thought that lacks scientific basis.

Comparison (prejudices vs science) -

Studies indicate homosexuality is a natural variant within the animal kingdom, compatible with the survival of the species:

Minority team really wants to make others understand that it all comes down to personal taste.

Comparison: these are pictures taken from Korea’s LGBTQ pride festival. “I like tomato spaghetti, do you like cream spaghetti?”, can be read on her sign. In this case she’s linking tomato spaghetti with homosexuality (liking girls in her case), versus cream spaghetti which would be linked to heterosexuality. She’s saying it’s not a big deal and just a matter of preference, “Love is Love”.

Jk can’t let go of his main argument  which is a plea spoken out into the world. He’s asking for compassion.

Moderator highlighting their petition for respect -

Comparison (pride festival, attendee) -

Opposition offers an alternative route to satisfy their wishes. Joons says mint can be found in Argentina, although it is not the top producer (*Reminder: they are playing parts).

If we research a bit we’ll see Morocco takes the lead by an astonishing difference: 92.7% of global production. It’s nearly a mint monopoly. Argentina takes second place but with a derisory 6.7%. If Joon was sufficiently informed to know that Argentina came 2nd place, he must’ve certainly known Morocco was 1st place by a huge leap. Why didn’t he mention Morocco instead?

After a little more research I found out that Buenos Aires - capital of Argentina - is one of the top destinations for gay marriage tourism. They were the FIRST country in the world to pass a marriage law that allowed even non-residents to celebrate same-sex weddings with international recognition (although limited to countries where it’s legal). Even today there aren’t many countries where this is possible because even if they legalized gay marriage some countries have residency or citizenship restrictions.

Jk says “that’s too difficult” in relation to mint choco. Going back to the hidden topic, despite these existing options, traveling abroad is not viable for everyone due to increased costs and complications. What about the guests? Even if koreans marry in a foreign country, their same-sex marriage will not be valid in their home country.

Minority team repeats their arguments because they are convinced it’s a simple matter.

The moderator shows more bias by saying “don’t keep prejudiced thoughts”. The debate has a clear direction.

Comparison (pride festival, attendees) -

The opposition argues that by enabling the polemic option, the rest are exposed to accidental contamination as a result of unwanted contact when sharing experiences with friends that have those preferences. I’m not so sure about this one because they are actually arguing about mint choco and not every argument that they come up with necessarily makes allusion or is aplicable to the lgbtq topic but it could maybe be compared to the fear of being hit on by an individual of your same sex - which is a common fear.

Minority team then suggests people should first ask each other about their preferences and that way avoid unpleasant situations.

Comparison -

The opposition argues that even if they know about each other's tastes that won’t prevent either party from pursuing what they want.

Jk suggests they take precautionary measures and separate for certain scenarios. Jin later responded by saying Koreans value attachment.

A possible comparison is this below scenario where some members of a group of friends wanted to go to a gay club but the males of the group were disgusted by the idea in fear of being flirted with or groped by gay men, which is apparently something that men in general do - gay or straight - in Korea’s club culture. It was a problem because they all wanted to party together.

Knowingly, the opposition says something quite ridiculous. Tae said he wanted his friend to read his mind and know about his taste without the need to ask. This can be compared to those who find it offensive when someone doesn’t automatically know they are straight, as if they were bewildered by someone possibly thinking they were anything but straight (*Reminder: he’s playing a part).

Teammates absolutely love the irrational but emotional comment. Perfect for what they are going for.

Minority team rejects such emotional responses. It’s dangerous territory because a lot of harm has been derived from clouded judgment caused by strong emotions such as phobias.

The opposition says you can’t remove emotions from humankind, to which Jk says he too has friends. He also has emotions like any other but wouldn’t be offended by such questions.

Opposition then says it saddens them when they see all the mint choco left-over that people didn’t buy. They say it goes against market principles because it has low demand.

Comparison -

The opposition says it’s a waste of ingredients. This can be compared to people saying it’s a waste if you aren’t able to reproduce.

Comparison -

The minority team asks for coexistence.

Comparison -

They end up running a poll to see how many people in the entire room like mint choco. Turns out it’s between a 10% and a 15% of the staff. These numbers are very similar to the suspected percentage of worldwide lgbtq population - data which is part of popular knowledge. There are certainly many commonalities.

(There are many bi people that would never admit it nor act upon it).

Regardless of the comparatively small numbers, it’s said minorities should still be taken into account and their needs should be met.

Comparison -

The moderator then utters some peace-making words. They seem to serve as a cue because the opposing team starts to take a step back so as to find common ground.

Mint choco team emphasizes their simple wish to be respected as a minority.

The opposition is willing to accept on the condition that they always ask if it’s ok to add their debated preference into the shared experience so that they have the chance to decline, or simply decide.

They also come up with the idea of mixing chocolate into their mint toothpaste in order to get used to the taste and eliminate the negative thoughts associated with it. It’s a method that replicates the mint choco flavour but without having to actually swallow, just familiarize oneself with it.

This reminds me of how consuming  media with lgbtq representation helps society come to terms with their existence, combats ignorance / prejudices and makes people much more likely to welcome their inclusion.

“Western countries in which being lgbtq is broadly accepted have tv shows with lgbtq representation. That kind of culture being liked by the general public helps the lgbtq community in being incorporated into the general society”

(netizen in favour of gay marriage due to watching american tv shows)

They all agree that both parties should be considerate of each other.

Joon really liked his mint choco toothpaste idea and further explains when questioned, dramatizing his words as he says he’d do it “to understand them” (*Reminder: Joon is already in touch with lgbtq culture).

Comparison -

They all are now finding consensus and preaching a positive message of tolerance and respect to construct a better world where everyone has a place, which was the initial plan all along.

MC gives final cue -

Messages they want to transmit -

Comparison -

Mutual consideration -

Agreement -

Joon comes up with another idea so that the minorities can easily recognize each other and happily interact, being able to share experiences that they commonly enjoy. He wishes for a peaceful world.

Comparison (minorities tend to seek a community) -

Jimin confesses that they began the debate with the intention of “conceding for others”. Definition:

Debates aren’t normally like that. What they were first carrying out could be classified as a competitive debate, but they just used it as a tool to bring a fitting topic forward, create a heated situation that mimicked society, and later deviate so that they could put a message across and set a good example. They all clearly wanted to campaign in favour of minorities. Info that I gathered on how it normally goes:

“In a debate, opposing arguments are put forward to argue for opposing viewpoints. Logical consistency, factual accuracy and some degree of emotional appeal to the audience are elements in debating, where one side often prevails over the other party by presenting a superior "context" or framework of the issue.” 

“Competitive debates may be presided over by one or more judges or adjudicators. Both sides seek to win against the other while following the rules. One side is typically in favor of (also known as "for", "Affirmative", or "Pro") or opposed to (also known as "against", "Negative", "Con") a statement, proposition, moot or Resolution. Both sides are required to embrace and defend their own positions, otherwise it’s not a debate.”

When the time comes for Tae’s final remark, he takes the opportunity to remind them that he is neutral towards mint choco (the actual flavour) but after hearing all their points he declares he now likes it. This doesn’t make much sense because your taste doesn’t change no matter how much you empathize or agree with certain postures.

He pauses before his statement and then lets out a bashful chuckle when he continues. They all laugh quite soundly - too much of a reaction. It gives the impression of an inside joke. To me it’s like he’s now specifically referring to the hidden double meaning - to him being lgbtq.

Joon even covers his face with his arm like he too felt shy by extension -

Vmin high-five as Jimin gives it up for him. Note how Tae had his hands clasped tightly together while he laughed. That’s another indicator of awkwardness / anxiousness. It’s an unconscious way to hug himself and close off.

High-five:

Tae finishes his wishes -

Good news -

The recap of what they all want to convey is to respect each other’s differences -

Comparison (Pride festival) -

(http://www.vlive.tv/video/112445/playlist/27764)

The end ! :) Hope you found it sensible enough.

As a final note I’ll leave you with their message for the Love Myself campaign.

[vieuxnoyesrp]

Taylor. As one of our most complicated characters, tying together two shows and many characters, you managed to capture Marin’s mysteriousness, while still making her human (metaphorically speaking). Marin is torn by contradictions, drawn in by a family she deserted, and running from a coven that had forsaken her. There are many forks in the road ahead of Marin, and you captured her conflicted spirit to the letter in your application. Both Emily Bennett and Marin Morrell are often neglected when it comes to fan works, and we’re excited and honored to have her in our midst, and to see how you bring her into the world of VN! 

Taylor, thank you very much for applying. As for Marin…

                     ⚜ ~ WELCOME TO VIEUX NOYÉS!!! ~ ⚜

Wondering what to do next? Click here and let the good times roll!

⤜ Name/alias: taylor

⤜ Pronouns: she/her

⤜ Age: 28

⤜ Timezone: cst

⤜ Activity: 7/10 I am usually on daily in the afternoons and evening time. I will be a bit mia on Tuesdays & Thursdays because of other commitments.

⤜ Best form of contact: tumblr is the best

⤜ Any Triggers? nope

⤜ How did you find Vieux Noyés? From my lovely friends

⤜ What drew you to the RP? I enjoy the plot as well as the characters. It seems like a very interesting place to come rp.

⤜ What is one subplot/element from the Plot page that you are particularly looking forward to seeing in this roleplay? I’m interested in seeing what comes of the differing views of the wolves. I’m curious to see what path they choose, which Alpha they align to and such. With that, I am also very curious about the Salem witches being in town. Because they aren’t bound to the ancestors (and I think that is who Marin attached herself to). It will be exciting to see what that means for the NOLA witches.

⚜ Desired Character:  Amélie-Marin Bennett Morrell

⤜ Why do you want this character?

Her bio was one of the first to really kind of call to me. She seems like she could be a very dynamic character to play. I find it really intriguing that she is kind of two sides of one coin. She has lived the life of a witch bound to the ancestors. As she was brought up but has also lived as one that doesn’t need them calling the shots. This duality can lend itself to a very interesting bit of turmoil when it comes to being back in New Orleans. I really feel like there is so much more to her than most people would instantly see on the surface. That is what I enjoy about her. She presents this persona, but really there is so much more swirling inside of her. Just waiting to be let loose.

⤜ What are your future plans for this character? I really want to develop the Bennett family ties. I don’t really have a preference for them to be good or bad. I just want them to develop honestly. I think that could add a lot to Marin’s life. Just having this thread that ties her down. I feel like she is floating in existence not really fixed to the ground. She spent the last five years learning and traveling. But at the end of the day when she stops moving, she really doesn’t have anything to go home to. If that makes sense.  I also plan on having her work through some of her inner demons. I feel like she uses control as a way to push all of it down. She understands that she’s done dark things but I don’t think she really lets herself feel the effects they have on her.She is willing to own up to them and the consequences. Which is a good trait to have?  But I don’t know if she allows herself to really feel them. I want to explore that. Honestly, I want to explore all the things she keeps buried beneath her controlled nature.

⤜ Put yourself in your character’s shoes. Give us a few lines to describe a day in the life of your character… Where do they live? Where and how do they spend their time?

Marin has a pattern she walks every morning. She finds it soothing to keep things pretty much the same every day. There is less room for her to get lost in thought. Or ponder things that are best left in the past. Coming back to New Orleans has been both a blessing and a curse. She loves being home, starting her day with a cup of tea at her favorite little cafe. Which is happily followed with a stroll through the French Quarter. There isn’t much need for a proper schedule when you don’t really have anything tying you down. She likes it that way, likes having her freedom to do as she pleases. After she has her fill of people watching and soaking in the aura that is the Quarter. She can usually be found watching over her niece. She tries not to be too obvious about it all, just checks in on her here and there. She isn’t ready for a face to face yet. Honestly, she has no idea at all what she would say to the younger Bennett. So staying in the background is probably for the best. Other minor details of her day involve sitting in her tiny flat reading, or meeting with someone that needs her help. By someone it usually means Damon but she chooses to not really dwell on the who most days. Makes for a less cluttered brain.

⤜ Give us three headcanons regarding your character of choice.

1) Marin wonders what she would actually say to Bonnie if they were face to face. It’s something she often runs through her mind. It has been many years since she has been anything to the girl outside of blood. Which makes her nervous about ever approaching her. Though deep down Marin wants to have a good relationship with her niece. She is the only family she has left. After five years of wandering with no real connection to anyone. She feels like it would be nice to have that in Bonnie.

2) Since her last coven, during her travels, she has learned more about magic than she realized was out there. Once Marin had her eyes opened it was if there was nothing she couldn’t see or finally have within her reach. It was a bit of a distraction in a way. Gave her a direction when there was no point she was headed to. Learning all she could was always more viable than wallowing on what was lost.

3) Beneath her cool exterior, she has a bit of a wicked sense of humor. It isn’t something that she will present instantly when meeting someone. It takes time for it to slowly begin to show itself. Many would consider it dark or macabre but Marin simply considers it fitting.

⤜ What are some plots you’d like to explore with your character?

I definitely want to explore her relationship with Bonnie or lack of relationship in this case. I feel like it could be interesting for Marin to be tied back to her old life in some way. Bonnie is essentially a glimpse of the life and family she left behind so many years ago. I think a part of her longs for that portion of her. When she walked away it been something she did entirely on her own accord. The risk, however, in the end, did not outweigh the reward. Yes, she was given a new branch of magic, a new way to see things in the world but that was taken away from her just as quickly. Of course, she accepts the blame for it. She did what she did.

I am also very set on working more with the whole Salvatore brother’s aspect of her bio. Just exploring more into her agreeing to help Damon and her ‘friendship’ with Stefan.  When it comes to Damon, I feel like he is just a means to an end but with Stefan, I think there is something she actually enjoys about him. Maybe it is the depth of his feelings for the people he cares for or maybe it is how he wears his care on his sleeve. There is just something she enjoys and I want to take it apart. To find out what’s really going on in her head when it comes to Stefan. It isn’t every day she willingly puts herself around people if there was no purpose for them.

The fact that Jennifer is in the quarter is something else I am dying to play with. It’s something that Marin really can’t ignore.  It’s easy for her to tell herself that she won’t allow it to affect her. Actually standing her ground and remaining unfazed by the women is another thing altogether. Or at least appear to be unfazed. If anyone can it would be Marin but I want to see that struggle. As a recovering Jennifer addict, i can see it being difficult and her falling on the coping mechanisms she developed while away for 5 years.

Honestly, I have to say the thing I am most interested in diving into is how she is going to fair being back in New Orleans. With the ancestors and the witches, she was disowned by. I mean there is a good deal of mystical forces that are pretty pissed off at her. I want to see how she deals with that, and how she gets her deserved dues interests me a lot.

⤜ Para sample:

(redacted for privacy)

⤜ Would you like to be considered for another character if not accepted as your primary choice? Isaac Lahey

⤜ Have you read the rules?: yup I have

⤜ Anything else? Thank you for looking over both of my apps :)