#wc discourse

[heathfall]

I generally don't get involved in warriors disk horse because I'm here for a good time and have other things to do than fight about cat books, but I've seen a couple takes (not going to hunt down screenshots or anything) recently that I feel like I need to say something about.

Thrushpelt is not a groomer just because he interacts with Bluepaw in a positive manner like one time while he's a warrior and she's not. (I checked Bluestar's Prophecy-- they have three interactions with each other before she becomes a warrior, all while she's an apprentice. The first is that he's impressed about her catching prey her first time out hunting. The second is him saying that she can't challenge the medicine cat. The third is him saying "may StarClan guide your paws" to her and Snowpaw when they go hunting together. They don't interact at all when she's a kit). If you think a mildly positive interaction between a child and an adult is equal to grooming, that's something you should probably do some thinking about.

In a similar vein, it's not "creepy" for Thrushpelt to not correct people when Bluefur lets the Clan think the kits are his because he's "in it to make people think they're mates". It's not some "doing the bare minimum" thing. It's helping out a friend of his for no benefit of his own because he's a nice guy. Again, if you think some guy doing a favor for someone he once had a crush on is somehow creepy and him trying to make a move, that's a reflection on you.

You're allowed to not like characters for "no reason", but you don't have to go out of your way to give yourself "a good reason" that's in no way supported by the narrative.

[rayewixx]

I don’t really care about the Bi Lesbian discourse but JESUS CHRIST- why the fuck is there a big ass list on Twitter of all the people in the WC fandom who support bi lesbians with all of their socials listed (and that’s including the small accounts)

For fucks sake- a WC artist got their Discord Server raided because of this OVER A FUCKING LABEL

BITCH- there are literal LAWS that are trying to ban the existence of the LGBTQ community and you’re focusing all of your attention on a FUCKING LABEL!?

[crystals-warriors-rewrite]

PPL R USING DA R-SLUR???!! I THOGUGJT WE STOPPED BEINF ABLEIST !!!!!

I thought so too :/

Apparently there are a few people using it against Moonpaw

[rookflower]

whichever one of us is a person first

[cheesepaw]

u have a good point but all of their trauma is valid, even if the levels of trauma they experienced varies. all of these cats were groomed and manipulated into training and fighting for the dark forest. i get you don’t like ivypool because of how she treats her sister and others around her but like. Lionblaze has acted similarly.

He treats shadowsight like shit and wishes that he could kill him and blames everything with the imposter on shadowsight. he harbors a grudge against shadowsight, which is because of ashfur, who also manipulated shadowsight.

both ivypool and lionblaze are mean because of the shit they’ve endured. there are real reasons as to why they act the way they do and it’s because of what they experienced. trauma and ptsd can drastically change a person and i personally think that that’s something important that should be brought up when we discuss these types of characters. ur allowed to not like them! but acknowledging why they act the way they do is important

i’m sorry but why is “they’re mean because they were traumatised by the dark forest” ONLY applicable to ivypool for some reason. not tigerheartstar, not breezepelt, lionblaze, birchfall, blossomfall etc

the amount of times i see ppl slagging off tigerheartstar for being confrontational or 'war hungry' or whatever despite him being in basically the exact same position as her for perhaps even longer than we know is so weird to me

[clanslist]

[66kenobi66]

Here's some better tragic/sympathetic villains and antagonists that aren't Catra

Darth Maul- Star Wars (The Clone Wars)

Savage Opress- Star Wars (The Clone Wars)

Jasper- Steven Universe/SU Future

Peridot- Steven Universe

Albatross- Wings of Fire (Darkstalker)

Fierceteeth- Wings of Fire (Prisoners)

Mudclaw- Warrior Cats (Winds of Change)

Felix Kranken- The Walten Files (Bunnyfarm/Cyberfun Tech)

Feel free to respond with your own faves!

[goldenflowerceo]

pigeonpelt? are you okay? you keep talking about defending sunningrocks... it's been 20 years. we're at the lake now. you need to let go.

[gutterclan-after-dark]

‼️‼️I am gay and transgender ‼️‼️ I am not criticizing anyone just mentioning some stuff I've noticed in a literary analysis sort of way I am not trying to start discourse‼️‼️

Anyway. One of my clangen cats just rolled as trans (yay) & it's got me thinking like.

What is it to write cats with gender variance in a world that is essentially post-gender (to the extent that any of us, having been raised from birth saturated in the unconscious stew of gendered thinking, can write something that is 'post-gender').

I've noticed that the vast majority of work in the warrior cats space does seem to strive to have complete equality between the sexes- and not just equality, but complete indistinguishably. I've even seen audiences routinely forget what gender a character even IS (which is kind of delightful). Toms raise litters, mollies become leaders, there is no friction, commentary, noticeable difference.

And that's fine- I'm more or less going that route with Gutterclan- but in a world where this is no social or material difference between the sexes- what does gender variance mean? How does it function? Where does it come from? What does being transgender mean in a world where gender identity does not really exist (or at least is not differentiated- there is One gender, and it is warrior cat*), and physical transition is not possible? Is it just a matter of pronouns?

What need for gender neutral pronouns in a world where essentially all things are already gender neutral? Is it just dysphoria? Do trans tortoiseshell toms hate their orange patches, or do trans mollies feel self conscious about their stud jowls? That's sort of miserable, if the only thing that being trans is, is having a problem with yourself that can't be solved.

And what does sexuality mean, when gender barely exists, and sex essentially doesn't? There is romance in warrior cats, for sure, but sex doesn't really... exist in most warrior cats works, and it definitely doesn't exist in the canon books. Which is absurd to say, because people are always having kittens, and accidental litters are a constant plot tangle, but there is never a sense of how these things occur. Being mates means you sit together at mealtimes and rub cheeks and get sad when the other person dies, and sometimes kittens appear after a timeskip.

This is of course due to the age range of the books, and because the main characters are animals. And I don't think it's a problem in need of changing, but it does make trying to conceive of sexuality strange in this world.

What does being asexual mean when no cats ever really display a sexual desire? What does being a lesbian mean where there functionally is no difference between mollies and toms? (Aros get to stay, the WC conception of romance ports more or less 1:1 from our world).

I do believe that sexuality and gender are to a certain extent innate, but they are also deeply, deeply shaped by our society's conceptions. Which is to say, eg, only desiring relationships with other women is perhaps innate, but the identity of Lesbian is constructed (which is not to say it isn't real- like, currency is a social construct, and we wouldn't say it's fake, or that it lacks power over us, etc). So what does it mean to have those labels in a world that- ostensibly- lacks much of the very human, very 21st century, very western, social baggage that creates them? And the answer is basically one of two things:

you do a lot of baroque gender worldbuilding. For your warrior cats fan work (which! Honestly kind of bangs and I would like to see).

People like to see themselves reflected in fiction, and the reason that we have pansexual cats and grey-ace cats and demi-boy cats is more or less because we have those things in real life, and we say the cats are those things and so they are, even if their history & context of gender and sexuality are completely different from ours, and likely wouldn't have created the same labels.

And there's nothing wrong with either of those approaches! I'm more or less going to go with approach 2 in Gutterclan, which just small switches in terminology, but I find it sort of... unsatisfying, the more I turn it over

*I put this question to my buddy Goose & he posited that the space that gender roles serve for us are, in warrior cats, essentially occupied by narrative roles. Leader, warrior, med cat, even things like villain or loner. I am nodding at this proposal very vigorously. In a world without gender, is the angst of a medicine cat apprentice longing to be a warrior not a sort of transgender longing to fit a different societal role than the one you are coercively assigned?

Anyway. I still don't know how to make my cat trans.

[conarcoin]

warrior cats fans calculating the age difference in months and consulting the giant family tree to check for vaguely distant relations before saying any two cats would be cute as a couple:

[bearfrosts]

i genuinely don't think i've seen a stupider take abt warrior cats before this and that's saying a lot

[flowanon]

WC Fandom Callout/Hot Take Time!

(I would like to preface this by saying that I am a member of the Warrior Cats community myself; I love it here and there are so many amazing and talented people. This post is by no means saying that everybody here is guilty of this, nor is it meant to be an attack or show of ill will on those who are. <:])

Okay, so I have a small grievance to air:

Never, in all my years on the internet, have I ever seen a community that matches the sheer amount of negativity and petty spite the WC fandom has, especially towards its own creators.

Exhibit A:

WC fandom:

The Erins: *actually give us the most pretty, fun, and unique canon design we’ve ever gotten, which CLEARLY IS A CHIMERA AS THEY INTENDED DUE TO HOW HER BLACK FUR IS LONGER THAN HER ORANGE FUR (LOOK AT HER CHEEK FLUFF)*

WC Fandom:

LIKE. Y’ALL.

(I would also like to mention that while yes, the inbreeding is gross and warrants criticism, when you have such isolated populations interbreeding, it was always bound to happen, especially with such complex and forgettable lineages (of feral cats, no less (y’know, animals that form family trees like that naturally?)). Honestly? It’s been an issue for so long that I really think we should just stop pointlessly whining about it, accept it (as long as they aren’t too closely related/it isn’t immediate family incest), and move on.)

I get constructive criticism and civil discourse is healthy in a fandom, but there’s no need to be so blatantly and endlessly petty and spiteful, especially towards the people who try so hard to give you the thing you enjoy in a consistent and timely manner and live up to its legacy. I agree that there are definitely things they’ve messed up on or could do much better with and that they should prioritize quality over quantity more, but c’mon. Honestly, y’all will just find anything to bitch about. 😭 Besides, enough with the pessimism and belittlement! Fandoms are supposed to be fun, and trust me, you will have much more fun if you just let yourself be excited and see what happens. Even if it does feel somewhat like toxic positivity to say so, there's no joy in just being a critic all the time. :]

Anyway, sorry for the exasperated ramble, and thank you for coming to my TEDtalk. 🙏

[tamaaiba]

I think a general rule of thumb to remember in fandoms is that when a character someone doesn’t like is popular or frequently defended, they will naturally tend to dislike that character more than the character who may be “worse�� but is majorly hated by everyone.

So if you’re wondering why people voted Brambleclaw as their most hated character over characters like Thistleclaw? Yeah that’s why

[kokichis-dead-dove-club]

[pigeonpuddles]

warriors "fans" will say shit like "warriors is a horrible -phobic and -ist series written by terrible people" and then keep reblogging fanart . like if you don't like the series then just don't interact with it?? genuinely mind boggling. like, there's a reason I don't go reblogging Harry Potter (it's that I don't like Harry Potter)

[taehyungfirst]

Armys mindsets towards Tae is so facinating to me. They will scoff at the idea of Tae going solo or not renewing his contract but they will never question why Tae is obviously being treated differently from the other members. Like okay if you are so convinced Tae is all in with the group comeback and still loyal to BH why does it not bother you that the company doesn't move for him or promote him like the rest of BTS. The whole of solo era has basically just been him doing his own thing without much support from BH. The only collabs he got was with his friends or connections he built on his own. He got none of the US promo the other members got except an exhibition for TYPE 1 that they tried to do the absolute bare minimum with. Friends was a hit and was fucking sabotaged, I don't care what anyone says. The way Winter Ahead release was handled gave me so much anxiety because wtf were they doing. And to make it worse they didn't even promote it. How can you not come to the conclusion that he has either made it known that he is ready to move on and now no longer a priority to them or is purposefully being sabotaged by his company. Imagine being so desperate for that group comeback that you will ignore the signs that one of the members might not be as happy in BH as you want to believe he is.

Anon, as long as they are getting that ot7 comeback they don’t care about anything else. ANYTHING. They don’t care about their individuality and artistry, they don’t care about the obvious sabotage Taehyung is going through, they don’t care they are gonna get a rushed half assed ot7 concept with an embarrassing promo. They just need to see the cb notice and they will start dropping money like sheep.

Taehyung literally said he renewed to see the members smile DESPITE the relationship with the company and they’re out there thinking hybe/bh ever treated him fairly. Ridiculous and embarrassing.