#who are the idiots acting like fandom misogyny isn't a thing

[fromtheseventhhell]

Saying that non-conforming female characters don't face as much misogyny as their "feminine" counterparts is so funny cause literally the misogyny in their treatment is more overt because they aren't staying "in their place" like men think they should. The disdain for women + misogynistic societal ideals are so much more blatant in male characters interacting with these women. Countless times they are, in essence, told they need to sit down, shut up, and know their place but somehow that translates into them having "masculine privilege". I can only assume that people with this take haven't actually read the books and only get their information from second-hand sources.

[tamelee]

Just a little rant about HOW MUCH I FUCKING HATE NARUTO FANBOYS OH MY GAAWWWDDDD besides the obvious reasons (homophobia, misogyny, incels) they worship the shit outta the worse characters ever like Shikamaru and Itachi and Hinata. Like I just saw on the Naruto Reddit (my fault, I know, but I searched something up about Naruto and the first link discussing that was Reddit) and they all used that stupid dumbass filler where Shikamaru was asking his dad about Naruto and why everyone hates him and how he doesn't hate him (even tho in CANON he did 😤) and they all said not only is he a better friend to Naruto than Sasuke ever was but (here we go again) Sasuke's more of a brother 🙄 and they also said Sasuke treated Naruto like trash and was the worst friend 🤦🏻‍♀️ like it's so insane to me the dudebros lack of brain and reading comprehension. Like how do you as a grown ass man not know the difference between what's actually real and what's not about what you're watching? Or maybe it's that they just hate Sasuke so much and how much Naruto loves him and keeps talking about him and how he's his best friend in canon (he said it way too much for me to believe that even these ugly incels couldn't understand) that they'd rather give the credit to someone else that isn't a threat and doesn't make Naruto act borderline homosexual. Oh and they obviously ignore Shikamaru's blatant misogyny and still consider him the best thing ever because why would they care 🙄 anyway end rant, sorry. I just hate this fandom 😭 I stay on my side of things mostly (well, other than this one time. But when I do I just rant about it to someone and move on)

Ah yeah it’s frustrating isn’t it? 

I think it’s obvious if you’ve read the Manga. I wonder if they’ve only seen the Anime and just don’t bother checking what is canon first. So much is changed from Kishimoto’s original. (Has anyone seen that twt discussion on filler? I’d love to read your opinions on it.) 

I mean, Hinata’s supposed backstory with Naruto is just ridiculous, but I don’t understand why people think Naruto was friends with any of them? Even if it’s shown in filler that Naruto was around them or they asked their parents about Naruto... what makes fans say they were friends? 

Sasuke was the only one who acknowledged Naruto with a smile and they weren't even friends until much later.

Right before the exams, Shikamaru tells team 7 not to die. Not because he’s worried for them, but because he believes they’re not capable, largely because of his lack of faith in Naruto. While Naruto calls them idiots and insults both Shikamaru and Hinata as he introduces them to the reader. 

'A big mouth idiot' and a 'weirdo' (I believe he actually also called her creepy but I can't find the translation, but remember when Kushina told Naruto not to go for a weird girl? She used the same words xD) And then Shikamaru immediately wanted to target Naruto in the forest of death.

Had either of them at any point been friendly to Naruto or whatever, then we would’ve known here and Naruto wouldn’t have insulted them like he did (as is his right) because he craved a connection more than anything. It’s ridiculous how the Anime at times just blatantly ignores the lonely misery Naruto had to grow up in (ALONE) in favor of these other characters. As if sugarcoating that would make any of them look less bad. And don't get me started on Hinata during that written test because it's no wonder Naruto got so confused and didn't trust her "kindness".

Regardless, I think a lot of Naruto-fans who tend to glorify any of these friendships and extending it for what it is largely do so because they side with a narrative regarding the system and don't get why Sasuke (and others) challenged it in the first place. Brushing it off like it was some evil, selfish thing. I personally like Shikamaru's development and who he is as a character in the end because him showing change might've been very helpful in actually changing the system had they worked towards that. But you know... we'll never know.

[nelyos-right-hand]

Re: fandom disagreements about Elwing/Fëanorians/whoever - what irks me here is that none of this was a problem for years when it was a common practice to piss on Elwing and various other female characters, but when people start defending them and acting in the same way against their rivals, people are suddenly amazed at how much it sucks to have your faves hated even in their tags. I don't think it's in itself a sign of misogyny to dislike Elwing or someone else, but when the fandom comes up with completely unfounded ideas in order to villainize these women while woobifying and explaining away the actual canon crimes of male characters, one can't help but draw some conclusions. So let's talk more when this fandom learns to respect women.

Hey Anon, thanks for writing me!

One thing I should probably say in advance: When I talk about "fans should be nice to each other in the kidnap fam/Elwing corner" I meant both Elwing and kidnap fam fans, I hope it didn't sound like I was only criticising the Elwing side, because that really wasn't my intention. I also only mean a small minority of people, and I don't know you, but since you came here to talk civilly about it and explain your issues, I assume you're not one of them, so I hope you didn't feel offended.

I absolutely understand your frustration, and I know that it's not easy for Elwing fans in the fandom; liking Elwing isn't a hot take anymore, but it's also far from mainstream. Nobody likes it when a person they love is portrayed negatively, and you have every right to defend her.

On the topic of disliking Elwing and misogyny - There might very well be misogynistic people in the fandom. It's actually rather likely. There're probably also racists in the fandom. This is the internet, and it's never completely free of idiots. And even though we can't change that, that's of course still not a good thing. But I don't think it's possible to identify those people based on their opinions on characters. The reason for that is that the characters we like don't mirror our moral compass. If Maedhros was a real person, he should go to prison for the rest of his life, and I would never even come close to defending him, but as a fictional character I can like him. It's like dark romance: No one would actually date their murderous stalker, but it's nice to read about it in a book.

Now, I'm not saying that there aren't any fans who dislike Elwing out of misogynistic reasons, only that I'm not in the position to judge that. And while I don't actually know any of the people in this fandom personally, I have met many very nice people, for example my beloved mutals, and some of them like and others dislike Elwing, and I do feel the need to defend them; There might be bad people in this fandom, but most of those I have interacted with are absolutely wonderful.

But I'm getting off topic and sappy. I think whether or not we have the right to draw conclusions based on these kind of things is a rather philosophical and complex question, so I get it if you disagree. The problem I addressed in my post also wasn't really about whether some people out there are misogynistic, but that some people say "Everyone who likes/dislikes Elwing is a bad person" and that's wrong and hurtful.

Now, this post has gotten way longer and chaotic than I was planning (I'm so sorry for rambling, I have to get that under control), so maybe a short summary: You're right that Elwing has been hated for many years and that it's good that her fans are standing up for her, you're also right that it sucks to only hear negative things about the characters you love. I don't think we can draw conclusions on people's moral compass based on their opinions on characters, but that's a rather complex question. What's important to me is that we treat each other with respect, don't insult others because they like/dislike a character we don't, and accept it when someone has different views on something.

I hope this helped/adressed your issues/answered your question. If not, or if I maybe misunderstood you, or something else, feel free to contact me again, I found it very interesting to hear your opinion on this and it helped me understand some things!

[raymondshields]

❤️🧡💜🤍🖤?

First two got asked by Arda and Remy, so let's do the next three!

💜: Which character is way hotter than everyone else seems to think?

Barok, obviously, but enough of the fandom seems to understand that we stan a man with nice curls and tits like that, that I'm not so willing to name him immediately.

So special shoutout to Horace Knightley, who everyone only remembers on the day of his death! And second shoutout to Raymond Shields, who only isn't everyone's blorbo because of racism. Come on. Ray's the best.

🤍: Which character is not as morally bad as everyone else seems to think?

Godot. People really like hating on him for his supposed misogyny, and that's mostly racism, but I feel like also plays right into the trope of making fun of a male character for their grief and dismissing it as 'manpain'. You can bitch about manpain when it doesn't make sense and the source of grief is only relevant in the story when they need to angst up the male character.

Godot's grief is terrifyingly real. He's angry at Mia, yes, because she trusted some idiot who ate glass on the witness stand to not let her die, and then she died on him anyway. He's angry with Phoenix, for not saving her when he was there and Godot wasn't. He's angry with Mia's family, for forcing her to act entirely alone and putting her in the situation where her death could have happened. He's angry with himself, for not being there to save her.

This isn't some macho hurr durr men must protect women thing. That is in fact how you respond when your partner gets hurt and you can't just fix it. People are disrespecting Godot and refusing to see that this is a man falling apart because his partner died and he couldn't do anything about it and he's grieving in a pretty messy way, and trying to salvage what he can, internalizing Mia's lack of trust in the world by refusing to trust anyone himself. He fucks up making the exact same mistake she did.

The only way to dismiss his pain as just being a macho dick is to, honestly and bluntly, dismiss Mia's arc and internal character entirely. You have to be misogynistic towards her, if you want to be misandrist in turn towards him.

Which is to say he didn't do things perfectly, sure, but he's not the asshole people think he is, and they think he is because they're racist. They don't do this shit to the white male characters, and I'm tired of it.

🖤: Which character is not as morally good as everyone else seems to think?

Misty Fey. Queen of abandoning her kids for really no reason, leaving them in the hands of her abusive, murderous sister (which she had full knowledge of, because there's just no way she didn't), and then dying really stupidly in a way that was really her own damn fault.

People love acting like she made decent decisions and she did the fuck not. Sure, she's not Morgan, but she sure enabled her to hurt her actual children, which does not get her any points from me. Good job fucking it up, Misty.

[ask game]

[jyndor]

why are people so mad about rebelcaptain i literally cannot think of a less problematic ship sdfkjhdf

anon I'm with you in the sense of like the idiots who think it's homophobic to ship a mf relationship (uno reverso it's actually biphobic to say that tyvm). im fairly certain its just one troll sending those anons though lol.

but im actually going to hold the rebelcaptain fandom to a bit of account for a moment if yall dont mind. in a loving way. and actually everyone. I'm holding shippers to account for a bit. with love and respect and anyone who thinks this is like idk attacking all shippers is an idiot and should go sit in the corner for fifteen minutes.

I don't want to ignore the feelings of some fans, some of whom are friends of mine, who experienced some very shitty xenophobic/racist bullshit from some rebelcaptain shippers throughout their time in fandom. There have been people writing shitty stereotypical Latin Lover shit in rc fic, there have been people writing very racialized and xenophobic portrayals of Cassian and when some Latine fans and fans of color pointed this out, they've gotten vitriol and bullshit from no doubt white women fans. It's a similar thing actually, exotification/fetishization/etc is harmful in all of its forms and I'm not going to act like it hasn't happened in this fandom.

It's frustrating as hell knowing a lot of these same people would push back heavily on fanboys sexualizing and fetishizing Jyn for being a woman, but that's white feminism for you.

so there are people who don't like rebelcaptain literally because of how some rebelcaptain fans have behaved and I'm not going to dismiss or deny that.

but rebelcaptain itself is like super innocuous and absolutely in no way is shipping a mf relationship homophobic lol that is so fucking embarrassing, anyone who says that is an idiot and very likely a straight woman with internalized misogyny who needs to fetishize mlm and can't relate to other women or femmes. especially since like I've said before, a lot of queer women and femmes gravitate towards ships with women and femmes because it's nice to see us in our ships. but these weirdos don't care about queer people. they care about getting off to gay porn and feeling good about doing it.

it's why so much of slash fic is like just taking gay stereotypes and putting them on characters they don't fit. and queer men and mascs have talked for years about how harmful it is and how difficult it is to find actually respectful, relatable mm fic that isn't just like top/bottom shit. I'm LOOKING AT THE TREATMENT OF THIS WHOLE FANDOM OF BODHI ROOK.

something that I've seen bodhi/cassian fans talk about how sometimes rebelcaptain fans can be racist and I am going to have to agree. because fans of a thing are part of systems and have real world biases, not because rebelcaptain itself is ~problematic lol.

but I've also seen a bunch of bodhi/cassian fans literally talk so much misogynistic shit about jyn and welp turns out they're just women fans of slash who think they're idk allies to queer people. I'm trying to be careful how I say this because I'm not trying to start shit with the good ship bassian, i come in peace lol, but... it's fairly common in my experience for women fans to ship m/m ships that have approximately five minutes of screen time together and do it in a fetishizing way and then totally skewer the actual canonical woman in the canon ship. but that happens with mf ships too, and women of color are much more likely to get it for "being in the way" or whatever lol.

it's why I was actually very worried about how some rebelcaptain shippers were talking about bix and adria before the show started, like cassian potentially having a love life before jyn coming into his life is a threat or something. that's just internalized misogyny with a racist/xenophobic tint to it since none of the other ladies cast got that from fans.

actually it's concerning to me that so much of the andor ao3 tag is like... weird fetishizing reader pov shit. or like ocs. and not any of the love interests who cassian has in the show. However much I do not think bix and cass are good together because of their toxic history, I definitely think they have so much chemistry and HISTORY that it warrants more than like two people even touching on it in their fic. I'm glad as hell that cinta and vel are getting so much love in fic, but that's such an outlier in fandom. wlw ships are so overlooked because it's not about exploring the characters and the stories for these fetishizing weirdos. it's just about attaching slash fic tropes to men and mascs who they don't fit.

[margridarnauds]

choose violence, your choice in fandom: 18, 19, 20, 23, and 25

18. it's absolutely criminal that the fandom has been sleeping on...

Raphael's files for Act 3 in the datamines being "Raphael_Tango" haunts me day and night. It's the reason why I have the idiots dance a tango before corrupting their relationship. I have to live with this knowledge, day and night. Also the fucking. Dialogue for the epilogue that was cut. WHY? WHY DO THE GODS TAUNT US?

Also, the Bluebeard parallels drive me up a wall. I WANT my Perrault/ Bartok/Crimson Peak parallel/AU and regrettably I'm one of the only people who is the proper degree of unhinged to write it.

19. you're mad/ashamed/horrified you actually kind of like...

...I regret to tell you that playing Super Mario World, Super Mario Bros. 3, and Super Mario Wonder in short succession has unlocked a part of my brain that I thought I'd killed off or...at least....knocked unconscious with a large bat.

...I regret to tell you it's awake and I'm back to shipping Princess Peach/Bowser. ...I also have 0 thoughts on Ascended Astarion besides "no, that isn't the authorial intent and people really don't need to defend it or pretend like he isn't intended to be abusive, but also, people escalate the debate and add a nasty undercurrent of misogyny, so you know what? You have fun with your toxic vampire BF" but Evil!Shadowheart corrupting Selunite!Tav? ...yeah. Yeah.

20. part of canon you found tedious or boring

BG3, it isn't news that Act 3 lags and there are some sidequests I refuse to do a second time because I did my time and we're not doing it again. I really hate a lot of the combat, even if I'm no longer awful at it. Like, sure, I can fight Raphael, I've fought every major boss in the game at this point at Tactician level, but also, consider: I don't *like* it.

23. ship you've unwillingly come around to

Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, I've been watching it for YEARS but I NEVER understood the appeal of Jack/Phryne. I thought it would be her essentially giving up her independence for a man and that they might have a short-lived fling, but it would never go anywhere. I dragged my heels, I bitched, I moaned, I said I would never like it, that it was a mistake to not just adapt the books and make Jack happily married and Phryne in a steady but open relationship with Lin Chung.

...I finally came around to it this watch through.

25. common fandom complaint that you're sick of hearing

*Ronan Mazurier can't be older than 22 years old and he just watched his father be killed in front of him after he TRIED to help him, by an officer of the king, a nobleman who has extreme power over him so Ronan can never really give as good as he gets. He's frustrated, he's angry, he's hotheaded, he makes decisions that screw himself over, he makes decisions that screw other people over, he thinks with his heart and not his head, but he's also a KID, be nicer to him*

Like, it's 2024 and I'm here to fight for my boy.

In general, part of why I stopped doing public streams, besides my schedule no longer accommodating it, was that I really, really got tired of people watching musicals that were obviously near and dear to my heart, that I'd often spent upwards of a hundred dollars on and just....relentlessly shitting on them, especially over relatively minor things like historical inaccurate costumes. Like, excellent, Takarazuka productions don't often have 100% historical accurate costumes, now can we actually pay attention to the MUSICAL? What do you think about the MUSICAL? What do you think of this attempt by a Japanese theatrical revue to adapt 18th century French court clothing? What is this saying about the directorial intent? "I don't like--" I don't like your face, and yet here we are. "I don't like that 1789 pays too much attention to the OCs and not to the historical figures" -- It's called. 1789 -- Les Amants de la Bastille. Not 1789: Robespierre and the Gang's REALLY wacky summer. Admit the musical isn't your thing, enjoy the bops, sit the fuck down, and shut up.

[justanisabelakinnie]

Lol this fandom is a fucking echo chamber. 

I love how when you call out the fandom’s sexism with how they let Camilo and Bruno completely overshadow the female characters in the movie, everybody jumps on you and attacks you for daring to say what is true: that fandom regularly lets male characters get more focus and attention than female characters. Even when the female characters are more important than the male ones. 

I’m seeing people say that Bruno and Camilo “need more love” and that they’re hated on for liking these characters. Where the fuck? 

And of course, instead of having critical thinking skills and wondering why in particular they’re drawn to these characters when a lot of the reasons people relate to Bruno could also apply to Mirabel and Camilo doesn’t even DO anything, they just pull out the “omg we just like them because they’re relatable and cute that’s all!” “why aren’t we allowed to like characters?” “we’re not sexist for liking them we don’t like them because they’re male!” or calling me a misandrist. Someone even tried to lie that Luisa is the most popular character in the movie, I needed that laugh today. 

Also, people saying I hate Camilo. Ah, yes, because if you don’t like that a male character gets too much attention and that he is overrated compared to female characters, you must hate him, right?! You know what that sounds like? “If you call out misogyny and male privilege, then you must hate men!” Exact. Same. Energy. 

But it sure does feel welcoming to be part of a fandom that is so tunnel-visioned and one-track minded that they’ll chase you away and tell you to SHUT THE FUCK UP and call you ableist slurs for even daring to say something as controversial as “hey, maybe we should give the female characters more attention than the male ones, they’re the ones whom the movie is about, after all?” No. They’ll join together and railroad you until you shut up. Even though men are preferred to women in virtually every fandom, female characters are generally hated for doing even the slightest thing wrong and not kissing up to male characters, and demonized and hated and shoved aside because they get in the way of a fanon m/m ship because they’re romantically paired with a male character. 

Sure is...nice. 

[afro-elf]

Just because you don't like an ending to something doesn't mean it has to be rewritten, like sure do that if you want but, don't answer that your ending is superior or necessary just because it didn't make you happy. An ending can still be emotionally fulfilling and helpful even if it isn't happy. I love happy endings buy what is there to learn from books if they all end happily?

i don’t wanna seem like a snobby english major, because i like having dumb fandom conversations that are ultimately just for fun (i cannot emphasize enough that i enjoy mcu spider-man) but i think what happens on tumblr sometimes is that, like, conversations about stories become conversations about ships and tropes and conventions so often and this is all pretty shallow in my opinion because no one on here ever has a “so what?” so saying something like “i wish there were more optimism in fiction” and especially “i wish there were more positive endings for marginalized characters” turns into “i think unhappy endings are all grimdark”. that’s not true 

i remember when the walking dead was relevant and i watched it and a lot of other people watched it and people on this here website who have only seen the consistently ugly ass promo art called it grimdark and i didn’t think that was a totally accurate description (and maybe one day i’ll elaborate on why, at least for the first few seasons, it isn’t, but today is not that day). people die regularly on the show because it’s a show about death but it’s also a show about the living among the dead, when it starts leaning into the gritty perception (and the racism and misogyny) it becomes a parody of itself. i think the violent endings of pan’s labyrinth and the shape of water are exceptionally good. they’re grim but they’re also... hopeful in a way. i think the ending to parasite is crushingly bleak but i think that given the theme of the film it would be irresponsible, messy, and frankly confusing for it to be anything other than bleak. the only ending in sight for our leads in the lighthouse is madness and murder, we know this immediately, everything in the first act of the film tells us so

no one would ever see a production of macbeth and be like “hm... the ending was a little dark for my taste” even in my long-teased expansion of the ending where lady macbeth escapes, she escapes to do the exact same thing in some other idiot’s castle because she’s a bad bitch but she’s also fucked up and it would be tonally confusing to say that she isn’t! 

unhappy endings, especially in kidlit, aren’t always gritty shock factor pieces of shit, Sometimes they’re unhappy because the writer wants you to think about everything that led the characters or the narrative to this place. there are lessons to be learned in unhappiness, in death, and in the unresolved