#winchesterland

[mlobsters]

supernatural s5e16 dark side of the moon (w. andrew dabb, daniel loflin)

not knockin' on heaven's door 😥 this song breaks my heart already from how they used it in this scene:

s2e13 houses of the holy

SAM I don't know, Dean, I just, uh ... I wanted to believe ... so badly, ah ... It's so damn hard to do this, what we do. You're all alone, you know? And ... there's so much evil out there in the world, Dean, I feel like I could drown in it. And when I think about my destiny, when I think about how I could end up ... DEAN Yeah, well, don't worry about that. All right? I'm watching out for you. SAM Yeah, I know you are. But you're just one person, Dean. And I needed to think that there was something else, watching too, you know? Some higher power. Some greater good. And that maybe ... DEAN Maybe what? SAM Maybe I could be saved.

there's a reason i've only read a couple post-series set in heaven fics. emotional damage.

like jabbing every emotional soft spot i have with a stick

DEAN It’s okay, Mom. Dad still loves you. I love you, too. I’ll never leave you.

MARY You are my little angel. How 'bout some pie? Okay.

DEAN What?

SAM I just never realized how long you’ve been cleaning up Dad’s messes.

jfc dude. so sam's first memory is thanksgiving with some random girl's family, then his second is running away? guess we're poking dean's soft spots with a pointy stick too

DEAN Is this Flagstaff?

SAM Yeah. (He pets Bones.) Hey, boy.

DEAN This is a good memory for you?

SAM Yeah. I mean, I was on my own for two weeks. I lived on Funyuns and Mr. Pibb.

DEAN Wow.

SAM What?

DEAN Well, you don’t remember, do you? You ran away on my watch. I looked everywhere for you. I thought you were dead. And when Dad came home…

SAM Dean, look, I’m sorry. I never thought about it like that.

i didn't think it was possible for an episode to make me cry as much as that djinn episode but hey they did it. good job. what the fuck

DEAN Wait a minute. Wait a minute. This? This is the night you ditched us for Stanford, isn’t it? This is your idea of heaven? Wow. This was one of the worst nights of my life.

okay so. is this a plot point, someone trying to drive a wedge between them or something. because this is fucking awful.

DEAN C’mon! Your heaven is somebody else’s Thanksgiving. Okay. It’s bailing on your family. What do you want me to say?

fucking AWFUL.

latest thing i read in fic first and thought there was no way it was canon. soulmates.

ASH Mm-hmm. Yeah. See you got Winchesterland. Ashland. A whole mess of everybody-else-lands. Put them all together: heaven. Right? At the center of it all? Is the Magic Kingdom. The Garden.

DEAN So everybody gets a little slice of paradise.

ASH Pretty much. A few people share—special cases. What not.

DEAN What do you mean ‘special’?

ASH Aw, you know. Like, uh, soulmates. Anyway. Most people can’t leave their own private Idaho’s.

i missed ash. he was a fun character and his actor did a great job bringing him to life

ASH This ain’t the first time here. I mean, you boys die more than anyone I’ve ever met.

DEAN Really.

ASH Ah, yeah… you don’t remember. God! Angels. Must’ve Windexed your brain.

i'd always wondered about that, all those times they died before, what happened before they were revived.

my pamela. glad to see her too. little wary of the soft sell on saying yes to michael though

DEAN So he’s just going to sit back and watch the world burn?

JOSHUA I know how important this was to you, Dean. I’m sorry.

DEAN Forget it. Just another dead-beat dad with a bunch of excuses, right. I’m used to that. I’ll muddle through.

JOSHUA Except… you don’t know if you can, this time. You can’t kill the Devil, and you’re losing faith, in yourself, your brother, and now this?

a) whenever dean talks shit about dad i'm like DAMN STRAIGHT b) hopeless dean makes a self destructive dean, can we not again, please

great. cas is a hopeless mess too.

SAM We’ll find another way. We can still stop all this, Dean.

DEAN How?

SAM I don’t know, but we’ll find it. You and me, we’ll find it.

that was one thing i did look up in future seasons because i'd seen so much samulet fix-it fic. i always thought he tossed it in some random public trash, but this makes it even easier for sam to just pocket it.

Mama take this badge off of me I can't use it anymore It's getting dark, too dark to see I feel I'm knockin' on heaven's door

Mama put my guns in the ground I can't shoot them anymore That long black cloud is comin' down I feel I'm knockin' on heaven's door

[soulmates-for-real-tranquility]

Sam and Dean are canonically soulmates

It's Winchesterland as in SamDeanland only because

05x16

[jinkieswouldyoulookatthis]

These were some of the tags on one of those "Are they soulmates?" polls...

Okay, once more with feeling...

The axis mundi runs through heaven but it's not the corridors that we see later on in the series that the angels use to get around up there. It's the path that a soul can take to move through their memories, their own heaven. If they follow it long enough it will lead them to the garden. Just like the axis mundi, the garden appears differently to different souls. But Sam and Dean both see the axis mundi the same, a two lane blacktop road, and they both see the garden the same, the Cleveland Botanical Gardens. Every other time they show us Heaven, souls have to pull serious tricks to get out of their heaven and into someone else's but Dean doesn't have to do anything special to find or get to Sam, he just follows the path through his heaven which leads him to Sam. Ash finds them together because they are in a shared heaven, that's literally how the show set it up. Only special cases like soulmates share heavens and they see the garden and the axis mundi the same because they are soulmates.

And whether or not Sam and Dean are soulmates in the show has absolutely ZERO to do with anyone's personal ideas about soulmates and what they are or aren't. All that matters for this discussion is what the show says. I realize the show didn't come right out and say, "Sam and Dean, you two are soulmates" but that is the only fucking reason that the idea of soulmates would have ever been brought up in the first place. What the show did say was...

Sam: So… no offense… Ash: (interrupting) How did a dirt bag like me end up in a place like this? I’ve been saved, man. I was my congregation’s number one snake handler. Sam: (smiling) And you said this was your heaven? Ash: Yup! My own… personal… (Ash shotguns his beer while Sam and Dean watch. He burps.) Sam: And when the angels jumped us? We were… Ash: In your heaven. Sam: So there’re two heavens? Ash: No. More like a hundred billion. So, no worries, it’ll take those angels boys a minute to catch up. Dean: (completely confused) What? Ash: See, you gotta stop thinking of heaven as one place. It’s more like a butt-load of places all crammed together. Like Disneyland except without all the anti-Semitism. (Dean and Sam still look confused.) Sam: Disneyland? Ash: Mm-hmm. Yeah. See you got Winchesterland. (He holds up his hands to indicate the bar.) Ashland. (He points all around outside the bar.) A whole mess of everybody-else-lands. Put them all together: heaven. Right? At the center of it all? Is the Magic Kingdom. The Garden. Dean: So everybody gets a little slice of paradise. Ash: Pretty much. A few people share—special cases. What not. Dean: What do you mean ‘special’? Ash: Aw, you know. Like, uh, soul-mates. (Silence greets his statement. Dean and Sam don’t look at each other.) Anyway. Most people can’t leave their own private Idaho’s. Dean: But you ain’t most people. Ash: Nope. They ain’t got my skills.

There are a few important things said here. When the angels attacked them, Ash found Sam and Dean in their heaven, Winchesterland as Ash calls it, not Deanland or Samland, but combined. He then says that soulmates are unusual because they share a heaven. And then, in case there was any doubt, he specifically says that most people cannot leave their own heavens. Ash can because he has special, unusual, skills. So Dean couldn't have simply driven from his heaven to Sam's heaven because heaven doesn't work that way.

Like, this really isn't that complex. What they gave us was a basic equation where they explained the variables and left the answer understood but just not filled in.

Neither Sam nor Dean could leave their heaven on their own because they lacked the skills to do so, only soulmates share a heaven, but they were together and seeing the landmarks of heaven the same way. The only thing this equals is that Sam and Dean are soulmates.

[dotthings]

My patience for this is still completely GONE.

Now there’s a JP stan pushing the idea that in the finale, there are special sub-heavens for soulmates, because John and Mary “got a place” together, and this proves that Sam and Dean are shown to be soulmates in the finale because Dean “showed up right next to Sam.”

They can’t even get that awful finale they claim is the best episode ever right. I don’t like the finale but unlike these stans I still actually pay attention to canon even when I dislike an episode.

So, some canon FACTS.

The finale:

Dean shows up at the Roadhouse with Bobby. Not with Sam.

By JP stan rules, Dean and Bobby are soulmates. Dean is also soulmates with everybody else he loves. This is actually a really lovely idea and because JP stans have decided absolutely every self-indulgent headcanon thought that crosses their brains is now canon I am declaring this canon: DEAN IS SOULMATES WITH EVERONE HE LOVES.

Actual canon facts: Cas and Jack REMADE HEAVEN

KNOCKED DOWN ALL THE WALLS

NO MORE MEMOREX ONLY ACTUAL SOULS IN THE SAME BIG SHARED SPACE

And still Dean has to drive and drive and drive to get to Sam and along the way he goes on a side trip adventure. There are no walls and still Dean has to drive on the Axis Mundi to find Sam, and Sam didn’t simply appear next to Dean. But Dean did drop into heaven right where Bobby is.

Oh gosh such soulmates can you handle how soulmates they are uwu!!!!!!!!!

DSOTM:

Dean had to use the road. The Axis Mundi. Same as in the finale to get to Sam. Dean landed in his own heaven. With a memorex memory of teen Sam. Not in heaven with Sam.

Sam and Dean’s favorite memorex moments were NOT SHARED.

They DO NOT SHARE A HEAVEN

Ash uses sigils to jump from heaven to heaven instead of the road.

Ash explains how heaven works and tells Sam and Dean about the concept of soulmates and refers to Winchesterland. The moment is highly ambiguous and a one-time-only barest crumb that could perhaps be used to project a headcanon that Sam and Dean are soulmates but nothing in the episode actually supports it. Nothing in the entire rest of the series supports it including the series finale.

The entire point of DSOTM was showing Sam and Dean as very different people with different needs who do not share a heaven or share favorite memories. Zachariah weaponized it against them to try to divide them. Perhaps it’s not as dire a conflict as the memories Zachariah made sure they came across suggested, but the memories are authentic and Sam expresses his authentic feelings about his memories. They aren’t implanted. They’re Sam’s. And it hurts Dean to see how much Sam wanted and needed to run away.

HOPE THIS HELPS!!!

[brotherscain]

idk how to tell you this but 5x16 actually doesn’t imply they’re soulmates, they wake up in seperate heavens and have to find eachother, and ash says soulmates share the same heaven then sam and dean share a Look because they’re weird like that but they in fact did not share the same heaven (unfortunately)

This ask leads me to believe that you are at least for the Weird Brothers being Weird, so I'm going to try and break you free from your shackles, lol.

The big argument here is whether or not they woke up in the same heaven, I'm going to make the case that they DID! Between Ash and some other stuff, it really tells us all the big points we need to focus on:

To find Sam and Dean, to get them to his heaven, Ash wrote down some symbols. Sam and Dean may have woken up in different PARTS of their heaven, but all the two had to do to find each other was meet up somewhere on the Axis Mundi (the road).

It's also worth mentioning that the Axis Mundi presents itself as different things for different people, assuming it's just them in their heaven. Sam and Dean both see a road throughout their memory path, and it progresses them both every time into the next one. Shared heaven, shared Axis Mundi.

(There is also a whole plot point this episode about following the road to get to Joshua in The Garden. I recognize this could counter argue my point, but I do think since it's one of those Big Heaven Things, we can assume it just operates outside of normal rules.)

Maybe I'm being a bit too on the nose with these ones, but screw it. Ash doesn't differentiate at all. The "us"/"we" into singular "your heaven" counts. To me.

Also dubbing it Winchesterland. Instead of saying Samland and Deanland, or doing anything but lumping them together every time he refers to their heaven.

This one breaks down two major points in one:

Hammering home just how difficult it is to get to someone else's heaven. Ash has a way of heaven-hopping, most likely those symbols we saw earlier. Not just anyone can do this. It is a huge breach in heaven's security. All this to say, we didn't see Sam or Dean using any symbols to find each other. Also, how would they know how to pull something like that off when their still trying to wrap their heads around being dead AND being in heaven?

Soulmates mention. This one isn't really about how I can prove to you that on its own it canonizes the fact. It's more like... given everything else... why is there a silence? Why leave the awkward pause? Why call attention to it AT ALL if we were not trying to say something with it???? You know?

So no, it's not ever said so explicitly as: "Sam and Dean are soulmates and this is Canon." But that's also kind of the beauty of it. No one really wants to even tell them, but it's obvious to everyone. It's all right there. All we have to do is parse the episode for what it really is.

[waywardmaslow]

Understanding that Sam and Dean are canonically soulmates with a shared heaven is as easy as 1, 2, 3:

1) “So there’s two heavens?”

Sam, despite the new knowledge that heaven’s not one big place and the pre-existing knowledge that Dean woke up in a separate memory than him, views where they were as a shared space.

2) “But you ain’t most people.”

Dean, despite the fact that he woke up in a separate memory from Sam, also views where they were as a shared space and thus singles out Ash as the only exception to the rule that people can’t leave their heavens.

3) “Winchesterland.”

Ash explicitly refers to the brothers as having a shared space.

Sam and Dean have a shared heaven. Shared heaven = Soulmates.

[blacknidstang]

That time Ash was explaining concept of heaven to Sam & Dean and whole soulmate thingy and was like "we got Winchesterland" baby boy we know you wanted to say "Wincestland". It's just so funny how he knew for ages the boys are soulmates and how chill he has been about it kcirjfjdkd

[ani-coolgirl]

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: Supernatural (TV 2005) Rating: Teen And Up Audiences Warnings: Creator Chose Not To Use Archive Warnings, No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Dean Winchester/Sam Winchester Characters: Dean Winchester, Sam Winchester, Ash (Supernatural) Additional Tags: Episode: s05e16 Dark Side of the Moon (Supernatural), Sibling Incest, Angst, Requited Unrequited Love, in this case they don't want to be in love, Unhappy Ending, First Kiss, Author Is Sleep Deprived Series: Part 101 of Every First Time Summary:

Ash clarifies the meaning of soulmates. Sam doesn't buy it. Dean gets taken for a ride. There are no maps for Winchesterland.

[daddycest-hub]

Did my Last Idea really Interest you? ;)

Also... Do you... have any such Ideas... for such Filthy Fantasies...

For our Winchesterlanders and/or Walkerlanders? ;3

It did!

Hmmmmmmm

I don't have any specific ideas at the moment, but I'm always happy to hear yours ;)

Btw, are we doing anything with the Cordell idea you had last night?

[sui-sleepingcatk2y]

SAM: And you said this was your heaven? ASH: Yup! My own… personal… SAM: And when the angels jumped us? We were… ASH: In your heaven.

ASH: See you got Winchesterland. Ashland. A whole mess of everybody-else-lands. Put them all together: heaven. Right? At the center of it all? Is the Magic Kingdom. The Garden. DEAN: So everybody gets a little slice of paradise. ASH: Pretty much. A few people share—special cases. What not. DEAN: What do you mean ‘special’? ASH: Aw, you know. Like, uh, soul-mates.

I mean... 1 + 1 = 2.

Sam and Dean are soulmates.

[carry-on-every-neverland-magic]

It’s been almost a week since my soul ascended to the highest plane of existence because of the Barn Scene ™ and Shared Heaven

And I ain’t never coming down

[lazrisings]

a bisexual in lawrence kansas just like dean supernatural

[jonmoxleys]

sam and dean graphic challenge → june 20th: favorite quote about them from others | 5.16 “See you got Winchesterland. Ashland. A whole mess of everybody-else-lands. Put them all together: heaven. Right? At the center of it all? Is the Magic Kingdom. The Garden. [So everybody gets a little slice of paradise?] Pretty much. A few people share. Special cases, what not. You know. Like soulmates.”

[jinkieswouldyoulookatthis]

Subtext - Part 2

This is a follow-up to my previous post about subtext.

Subtext vs. Text

So, if the potential meaning(s) of subtextual elements is not part of canon, Jinkies, how can you say that Sam and Dean are canonically soulmates when the show never came right out and said that they were?

Great question! The short answer is that there is a difference between subtext and text that shows rather than tells.

Writers are always being told to "show, don't tell." But what the fuck does that actually mean? It means that good storytelling isn't just exposition. Sure, you can explicitly tell your readers/viewers a thing, it happens all the time, but if you want to really draw your audience in and make them suspend disbelief for a time, immerse them in your story, you want to show them things because that makes them feel the things. So instead of saying, "Bob went to the store and bought eggs, milk, and flour," you would instead, perhaps, describe Bob coming back with shopping bags that he unloads, pulling out eggs, milk, and flour, and putting them away in his kitchen. The fact that Bob went to the store and bought these items, while unsaid, isn't subtext. As the writer, you just chose to show your reader the results of an action instead of talking them through the steps of that action.

Likewise, in the episode Dark Side of the Moon (5x16), the writers show us that Sam and Dean share a heaven by having them be able to find each other without breaking out of their individual heavens, a thing that they show and explain to us through Ash as needing to happen to jump from one person's heaven to another's. But Dean just follows the road through his heaven and it leads him to Sam... because they're in different parts of the same heaven. Taking Ash's metaphor of Heaven being like Disneyland a step further, both Sam and Dean were in the Winchesterland heaven portion of Heaven, just on different rides within that portion of the larger park. Then Ash says, while looking pointedly at the two of them, that special cases like soulmates share a heaven. So while the story did not say, "Sam and Dean are soulmates," it gave us the equation, explained all the variables, and just left us to fill in the answer on our own because they had faith in our ability to do the basic math. Turns out that faith wasn't 100% justified, but whatever, not everyone is good at math.

So in this case, Sam and Dean being soulmates is a part of canon even though they never came right out and said those specific words in that order. It is text that is shown not told.

Text, in a written work, is the actual words used, whether those words are describing actions, dialog, or setting a scene. While subtext is the space between and underneath the words where implied additional meanings can be found, if one chooses to go looking for them.

A great and fertile ground for subtextual readings can be found in discussions about Sam and Dean's sexualities. Because while the text only tells and shows us both brothers being heterosexual, there is a lot of subtext that speaks to a lot of people in support of one or both of them being queer in some fashion. Queer readings of either character are valid head canons with lots of support that can be pulled from the subtextual elements of the show. There is room within the story for a lot of subjective readings, even though all the canon tells/shows us is that they are heterosexual cis men.

Now I know a lot of you may screech to a halt here and start objecting that I am putting a subjectively heteronormative read on this. Yeah, I know. Unfortunately, the entire issue with the heteronormative bullshit that we all deal with in the really real world on a daily basis, is that it is the default presumed pov. This is changing (thankfully) but Supernatural was created before that shift really began in the collective consciousness, so the default presumed pov of the show is a heteronormative one. That is how the show was created, the filter through which it was written and acted and presented. And while reading it from a different pov is valid, it is not going to be in line with canon... it would be head canon.

Again, HEAD CANONS ARE VALID even though they aren't canon.

[samanddeanloveeachothersomuch]

3 Questions

Is there any instance in the show where Sam and Dean actually say the words "It's you and me against the world?" I can't find the specific episode which is why I ask although I'm sure it is a quote somewhere in there.

2. Why are people against Sam and Dean being platonic soulmates in canon? I get people being uncomfortable with wincest. I'm not a wincest shipper, although I have been on the blogs of people who ship wincest because they have a lot of platonic things too that I like to reblog, but what is so wrong with platonic soulmates? Especially when it is clear that Sam and Dean did share a heaven in Dark Side of the Moon? The arguments against it not being canon are pretty weak and I haven't seen one person explain "Winchesterland" yet there are people who insist they are not. Is it just hellers that do this and the rest of the fandom agrees that Sam and Dean are canon platonic soulmates?

3. I have read plenty of gen fanfiction where Sam and Dean are sharing the same beds as adults. My question is how likely is it they would actually do this? Not every night or anything but if there was only one bed in a motel room or one of them was really distraught over something that happened (these are the scenarios that happen in the gen fanfic) how likely really is it? I know they did it when they were kids from John's Journal (not sure if that counts as canon though) then of course in the episode baby one was in the front seat and one in the back which is the closest I can think of. Just curious how likely it would actually be or if that is just a fanon thing?

Thank you to anyone who answers.

[touchstarvedsam]

Why is it so hard to understand the concept of codependency? Is not nice, is not romantic, it doesn't mean you're someone's soulmate, is ugly and sad, and it means you can't live or let live, it means you don't care about yourself at all, because everything you do is because and for another person. Is mental illness and Sam an Dean did not deserve it, they deserved to live for themselves!

I am having a lot of trouble trying to read the tone of this ask, anon.

But listen, the entire show is based on Sam and Dean’s psychotic, irrational, erotic codependence on each other. So I don’t know what to tell you if you hate that part. Why did you watch the show? Why continue to watch the show if their codependency comes off as a mental illness to you?

Sam and Dean didn’t have a perfect childhood. Dean was raised like a little soldier, told to protect his little brother from the moment John handed Sammy to him. Dean protected Sam as much as he could growing up, tried to give Sam a childhood for as long as he could, until smart, sneaky, curious little Sammy found John’s journal and learned about the things that go bump in the night himself.

They spent a lot of time on the road with their dad, and a lot of time sequestered in dirty motels together while their dad was out hunting. Their codependence stemmed from that. Is it healthy? Not really. But if you wanted healthy, why would you watch Supernatural to begin with?

Supernatural is literally about Sam and Dean’s codependency. It’s about how through thick and thin, through fights and make-ups, between angels and demons, Sam and Dean will always choose each other. It didn’t matter that the fates were against them, that God was against them. These two defied everything that tried to stand in between them. They said “screw you” to God, and all the demons, and all the angels, and chose each other, over everything. Time and time again.

Ruby and Castiel tried to tear them apart in season 4. They “broke up” for a bit, but in the end? Dean went back for Sam. Late, but he did.

Zachariah tried to tear them apart in season 5, manipulating what Sam’s heaven would have really been like and showing them only Sam’s moments without Dean. But Ash helped them, got them back on track. Sam and Dean are soulmates, whether you don’t think that’s true or not. Ash calling their heaven “Winchesterland” should be proof enough of that. Castiel even told Dean that if he keeps driving on the Axis Mundi, he will find Sam. If that doesn’t scream soulmates to you, I don’t know what does.

Castiel tried to keep them apart in season 6, the whole soulless bullshit. But even soulless, Sam went to find Dean. It took him a year, but he finally brought Dean along with the Campbell hunting crew. Even soulless, you can’t tell me that Sam wasn’t drawn to Dean. He may not have “cared” but he knew he should care.

Everything in this show has been trying to tear Sam and Dean away from each other and every time it’s the codependency that yanks them back together. But if it wasn’t for their codependency, the show wouldn’t have lasted half as long. If Dean didn’t sell his soul or Sam didn’t try to sell his own, or Dean didn’t temporarily kill himself to speak to Billie to get her to bring Sam back, would the show have been half as good to you? Tell me honestly, would you have liked it as much if Sam and Dean were just your average Joe brothers, not being forced to watch each other die practically once a year for fifteen years?

Codependency like that in real life, yeah, I would consider a problem and would hope for them to get professional help if it’s potentially life threatening. But this is Supernatural, and it’s fiction. People in this fandom really need to start learning how to separate reality from fiction. We don’t watch TV shows to relive the norm. We want the codependency, the subtext, the angst. In real life, no, but fiction is our getaway. Fiction is a way of coping with the shitty world around us. And if my way of coping is with two brothers so codependent on each other, you can barely tell where one ends and the other begins, then that’s on me. It’s my getaway, my safe space.

Sam and Dean, in the end, lived the way they wanted. Yeah, they chose each other over everything and everyone else, but that wasn’t Chuck’s doing. Chuck wanted them split up. Chuck wanted them to suffer. But nothing could sway Sam and Dean, not forever. And that’s what I love.