#world quest/melusine lore spoilers ->

[snakeoid]

second half / um ough

[genshinnrambles]

[4.0]: A Theory On Rhinedottir, Alchemy, and the Meaning of Sin

“One thought may end all calamity, and there will always be thoughts that may transcend time.” -The Meaning of Aeons “Separate the dust in the flames with joy, and extract the exquisite from the crude. For all in the universe comes from a single source, and all things may be derived from a single thought.” -Cinnabar Spindle

I’ve been wanting to do some Rhinedottir speculations for a while. With the new Ancient Colors world quest in Fontaine, I think now is a good time to propose a theory about this mysterious member of the Hexenzirkel, her approach to alchemy, and the reason she is a “sinner,” especially within the context of one of the Archon Quest’s central questions: what does it mean to be “born with sin”?

SPOILERS: Up to Act II of the Fontaine AQ (just Primordial Sea stuff), and Ancient Colors.

Although Rhinedottir is never mentioned by name in Ancient Colors, all of the signs of her are there: Mamere’s identity as an artist, Elynas’ otherworldliness and similarities to Durin, and the differences between the Melusine’s perception of the world and our perception of it (or their aesthetics, which we will touch on later). Ancient Colors is trying to remind us of Dragonspine and, if you were playing during this time, Shadows Amidst Snowstorms, and I believe it is doing so because it is key to the secret of the Primordial Sea and the prophecy of Fontaine.

We’ve heard Rhinedottir’s perspective only twice so far, and that was in the Windblume festival from this last year and in Cinnabar Spindle’s lore. Though we still don’t know much about her, she does identify herself as a “mother” of many children, and that she is raising the only son she has left. This, of course, is Albedo. 

We also know that she is considered a "sinner" at the center of the Cataclysm who unleashed "an army of shadowy monsters" onto Teyvat, but we have very little grasp of what exactly is meant by "sinner," and what if any consequences this label has had on her since then. Although every Hexenzirkel witch will undoubtedly be very important to uncovering the truth of Teyvat, Rhinedottir presents a particularly interesting case as the only one whose activities may have caused cataclysmic destruction, as opposed to Alice's general mischief and strange sense of humor.

It’s almost nothing to go off of, but I hope to demonstrate in this speculative theory that it’s more than enough to arrive at some answers.

Psychoanalysis 101, Round 2 

To better explain what Durin, Elynas, and Rhinedottir’s other children are, we need to use an analogy rooted in Freud’s psychoanalytic theory of dream interpretation. This is a super TL;DR version of it and way oversimplified, but if you’re interested I wrote a more detailed theory about the significance of dreams in Genshin that has a full explanation of it there. (Also, it should be said that these were just Freud’s theories, please do not take any of the following as an accurate description of the human psyche and how it works. We are just having some fun for the sake of media analysis.)

Freud thought that dreams are the mind’s means of expressing unfulfilled wishes, and that the psychological purpose of dreaming is to “fulfill” those wishes. In A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis, he gives an example of this through a little girl’s dream where she was sailing on a lake: this dream was born out of an unfulfilled wish in her waking life, where she had to stop sailing on the lake despite wishing to continue. Hence, “I wish to sail on the lake” becomes “I am sailing on the lake” through the dream.

Further, Freud thought these unfulfilled wishes are “forgotten” in our unconscious mind when we are awake, censored by the ego to protect our conscious mind, but that at night this censorship is weakened. This is what allows a dream to occur while we sleep. 

These unfulfilled wishes are often more complicated than a childish wish to keep sailing on a lake. Think about it this way: a wish is, at its core, a thought in our head, or a desire. What do we do with the thoughts we don’t like, the ones that are unbecoming of us or are unacceptable to fulfill? 

We deny them. 

Specifically, we repress them into the unconscious, where they are forgotten. Thing is, even if we temporarily forget these thoughts, they won’t just disappear from existence - they fester in the unconscious, waiting to be expressed. The dream, therefore, is the unfulfilled wish/repressed thought’s attempt to cross the boundary from the unconscious mind into the conscious mind - to be acknowledged, or indeed remembered.

“Unfulfilled Wishes”

Making sense so far? If so, try to think of Teyvat like this: everything that is visible, everything above ground that the light touches and that can be perceived is like the ego and conscious mind. All of these things are what you’re aware of, things that you “know” and can make sense of, things that you understand, things that fit into rules and laws and order.

Now, think of everything in Genshin that is “unseen” and “unknown”: the Abyss, the spaces underground, forbidden knowledge, things that are “not from this world,” from beyond the firmament…these are like things from the unconscious mind, the repressed thoughts that we deny in ourselves because they may reveal a truth we are unwilling to face. These things are comparatively chaotic in nature, things we’d rather avoid, or things that we wish to forget.

We know that Elynas’ and Durin’s bodies are composed of matter that’s foreign to Teyvat, and that this is a major reason why they are incompatible with Teyvat and cause its destruction. This would make them more similar to a repressed thought, something that we don’t understand or know, and attempting to understand it destabilizes our sense of self, our “truth.” It follows that their home, the Abyss, is most similar to our unconscious mind, and Teyvat is most similar to our conscious mind.

Elynas: Before I was born, I floated in the cosmic darkness. It was cold there, and lonely. I was so sad, then, and I would often cry.

So, as their mother, who or what is Rhinedottir in this analogy? Well, we can be a lot more specific than calling her a “sinner.” In fact, she’s a dreamer, and alchemy is the medium through which she “dreams”:

This was a story from long ago...  Unborn life, unfulfilled wishes,  Tragic dreams at the edge of the universal darkness that could never come true, Indwell my body, and descend unto this world.  Then, my lovely children,  Like rainwater flowing into creeks, and plants growing towards the sun,  Go unto a lovely place, and display your own beauty there with pride.  This is a memory, a memory that a child named Durin had of his mother… "Thank you, Mother, thank you."  "You gave me wings to soar and a mighty form."  "Mother, I wish to go to a land of lovely songs,"  "I will tell them about you, Mother, and about everyone else."  "I shall tell them that the place where I was born is beautiful." -Festering Desire

Rhinedottir’s children, then, are like thoughts or ideas that she is bringing to life, or “making conscious,” by moving them from the Abyss to Teyvat. It may even be the reason why the sword from The Chalk Prince and the Dragon is called Festering Desire in the first place - it’s a reference to the idea of repressed thoughts, wishes, and desires festering in the unconscious.

Should the analogy hold true, it provides some insight into what her intentions may have been in creating her Abyssal dragons. But before that, we need to take a little detour into Enkanomiya and brush up on some lore.

Denouement of Sin

Eboshi: However, the heavenly order seemed to not wish for those who remembered all this to remain on the earth. We searched and searched for a road of return, but there was none to be found.

Remember these hologram-looking dudes? They are the Shades of Tokoyo, also known as Sinshades. They are described as afterimages of the former citizens of Byakuyakoku preserved by Istaroth’s favor, specifically those citizens’ most powerful emotions, and they are only visible during Evernight:

Eboshi: Due to the phenomenon known as Sinshades, the “past,” “history,” and “truth” of Enkanomiya would endure even if left to their own devices. Eboshi: As such, great effort was expended, not that we might remember, but that we might “forget.” Lady Sangonomiya was of this view.

Like a dream, Sinshades only appear at night, and they are a kind of embodiment of history or “truth” that Watatsumi Island has chosen to forget, representing the thoughts and emotions of those who once lived in Enkanomiya. Using Freud’s theory of dream interpretation as a framework, Enkanomiya then functions as Watatsumi Island’s unconscious mind. 

Put another way, if all Sinshades are the result of strong emotions preserved in time through Istaroth’s favor, then those emotions are like thoughts, and that would make the Sinshade a “physical” form or expression of those thoughts. So, when we call the afterimages the “Sins of Tokoyo,” we are in effect calling them the “Dreams of Tokoyo,” because they are the thoughts and emotions of Enkanomiya given form, and that’s what dreams do: they convey thoughts and feelings through a series of images. 

Through the Sinshades, we see an implicit association with the concepts of dreaming and sinning in Genshin’s worldbuilding, and through them we understand that they are not so different from one another.

A Brief Note on Aesthetics

Jakob: Look at your feet. Blood, flowing like a river, fertilizing the very dust of the earth with their filthy fat.

It may have struck you how various Melusine perceive reality in a way that greatly differs from the things we see, as if at times their perception was “flipped,” if not somewhat strange. By the end of Ancient Colors, it’s clear that this is due to the Melusine being born of Elynas, who is not from this world. A similar phenomenon can be seen in both Durin and Elynas, the former imagining itself dancing with the people of Mondstadt before it “woke up” from this dream to Dvalin’s fangs in its neck, and the latter realizing that the things that it finds fun are destructive and harmful to the people of this world.

This is a part of the commentary present in several world quests and commissions in Fontaine that deal with “aesthetics,” or one’s own sense of beauty. Aesthetics are principles that differ on both large and small social scales, varying between groups of people and between individuals (see Salsa’s and Ubu’s aesthetic disagreement), and they can change throughout time as values change. In other words, they are informed by perspectives.

For example, think of what we know so far about the Primordial Sea. Neuvillette wonders how the Primordial Sea could be capable of giving life and then “suddenly reversing itself” so that it instead “devours life,” but this is just his judgment of what the sea does, and ultimately his perspective. Many others view the properties of the Primordial Sea differently from him: to them, the prophecy is comforting because it signals a “return,” or a “homecoming.” To take it a step further, Neuvillette may be making an assumption by stating that the sea has reversed itself. Perhaps this is just how the sea is, perhaps this is its “truth.”

Verenata: The "truth" will not be limited or constrained by the eyes and perspectives of the viewer, and won't be distorted by what is in their heart. It objectively exists, and it just is...like the white sand, like the bones of seastars, like the waves that crash and pound...those are "truth."

Now, imagine that you are staring at a 3D object from a 90 degree angle. If I ask you to describe the object from where you're standing, you'll be able to accurately tell me about what roughly half of the object looks like, but you won't be able to accurately describe the other half of it without help from someone standing on the other side of the object.

But how can you be sure there even is another side of the object, or that it's any different from the one you see now? From your perspective, what is already visible to you may seem sufficient to describe the object in its entirety. In other words, your perspective becomes your "truth."

It is only through considering additional perspectives that we broaden our own understanding of reality and expand on our "truth." However, broadening our perspective is usually not a comfortable experience, as is typical when we engage with ideas that differ from our own. Part of expanding our "truth" requires us to shatter our current understanding, pick up the pieces, and reassemble them into a shape that makes space for these other ideas and their "truth."

For example, when we confront Jakob at Elynas' heart, he describes the rushing currents beneath our feet as Elynas' blood. To the player, who has been swimming around in that for a couple of hours by that point, this idea is macabre and horrifying. However, when we consider Jakob’s perspective, his “truth,” it also expands our understanding of Elynas as a being that is somewhere between dead and alive, sleeping if you will, and that he is more than capable of waking up from his slumber with the appropriate stimulus. Another example is Canotila, who saw the wasteland in Rene's Book of Esoteric Revelations as a peaceful forest. When we consider Canotila's "truth," her aesthetic sense doesn't change the way we see the wasteland, but it does show us something equally important: the way that we experience the wasteland is not the only way it can be experienced.

If we return to the other ever-present metaphor of alchemy as a form of painting, we can see that Rhinedottir’s aesthetic sense greatly differs from what is acceptable and compatible with Teyvat. But, just like Mamere, she paints regardless of whether her paintings are understood by a greater audience. In time, Teyvat's "aesthetics" may change again, and perhaps her "art" will be received differently when that time comes.

Concluding Thoughts

(A pool full of Water from the Primordial Sea. Countless sins were born of it…)

So, that is why I think Rhinedottir was deemed a sinner. She sinned by “dreaming” up these chaotic life forms that were not from this world, bringing them into being through the Art of Khemia, and telling those chaotic life forms that they were beautiful, too, that the ordered and lawful world of Teyvat just needed to realize how beautiful they were. Maybe Rhinedottir was dreaming of a new world, one where her children’s wishes could be fulfilled, where they could exist with everyone, and maybe creating that world required the destruction of this one. You could also think of her as someone who has introduced “external variables” into Teyvat, which, hmmm..:

“...No matter how many times I derive it, the result remains the same, though this result is not expected... Unlike the world depicted in these ancient texts, there will be no more new civilizations born... Unless we consider introducing "variables" from outside the system... If it was that sort of power, there might be a chance…” -Enigmatic Page I, Book of Esoteric Revelations

In this way, her “children” (thoughts) were all “born with sin,” or are born from sin (dreams). If Rhinedottir is a dreamer, then alchemy is the way that she dreams: it allows her to give forms to these thoughts. And if you buy that, then there are some serious implications to consider from this whole notion of Fontainians being “born with sin,” and just what exactly the Primordial Sea might be. Definitely something to think about while we wait for 4.1. 

One last point that is more of an aside than anything else: Rhinedottir’s only remaining child is Albedo, but through this lens we see that he is not just the culmination of the Primordial Human Project, the creation of a human through the power of alchemy, but also the only known example of Rhinedottir’s “ideas” that coexists with Teyvat as it is now. As for her known extant grandchildren, they have integrated with Fontainian society and don’t seem to cause them any trouble. I wonder if she knew something like that could happen?

But…that’s just my take on it so far. What do you think?

(also, fun fact: there is a parallel storyline to this one unfolding in Honkai Star Rail right now as it relates to being deemed a “sinner” for creating life, and another parallel storyline in Honkai Impact 3rd about creation and rebirth and “returning home to the sea” and I just love when Hoyoverse connects their games like that) 

EDIT (9/8/2023): Touched this up a bit and made some grammatical corrections. Thesis is the same, some added support and re-phrasing was done to better convey it.

Sources

A General Introduction to Psychoanalysis by Sigmund Freud

[gold-rhine]

anyway, fontaine world quests spoilers, but since Elynas is now my favorite sweet child, here is a little summary\speculations in case ppl mb did not catch some details from the quests and about abyss lore:

Elynas is the monster from the Abyss, some kind of dragon or a serpent. He is gigantic and Elynas island basically formed around him.

He existed in "cosmic cold", i.e. Abyss, until "Mother" summoned him and his "siblings". We know from the logs of fontaine fleet which was following "great beast Elynas" that he appeared during the cataclysm 500 years ago. As we know, Rhinedottir was known to open portals to Abyss that let abyss monsters in, so logically, Elynas was one of these, and "Mother" is most likely Rhinedottir and siblings are other monsters summoned.

Like other Rhine's creation, Durin, Elynas was actually very good natured and didn't wish to harm anyone, but apparently his abyssal origin made him see the world differently and the actions he thought were harmless, were in fact destructive to this world. Spoilers for "Book of Esoteric knowledge", in the domain at the end of this quest we learn that Melusines see places corrupted by abyss not as ruined, but as a beautiful garden and abyssal rifthounds as friendly puppies. And in fact, after we fight rifthound here, it also turns into a friendly dog, hinting that ALL abyss monsters are well-natured, but there is some kind of warp going on that shifts their perspective\actions when they enter Teyvat into being destructive, while they see it completely differently.

after some time, Elynas realized that he was in fact, damaging the world around him, which saddened him greatly and he intentionally sought death to stop suffering of others. He was killed most likely by the fontaine fleet that followed him which i mentioned before, but its not stated directly. He died, but his consciousness still lingered and he is basically aware of his body and whats going on around.

After his death, he didn't rot, but calcified, and apparently many factions, including abyss order, Narzissenkreuz Institute and "spirit of primordial waters" (oceanid? hydro dragon?) explored his body and were collecting his blood and flesh, for which he was glad bc he felt lonely and liked to have company. Especially he liked Narzissenkreuz's Jakob, bc he felt the presence of same cold cosmic power (i.e. abyss) in him and so thought that consuming his flesh will be good for him. Jakob as we know, turned into "Inquitous Baptist" after this, but Narzissenkreuz drama is a different story. But we can at least intuit that one way of turning into abyss lectors\heralds\etc is consuming abyss monsters flesh\blood, btw hey Childe, can we have a word of how you got your foul legacy form? did u eat that whale, Childe???

At some point, there was a battle between former friends from Narzissenkreuz Institute inside of Elynas (mentioned before as Narzissenkreuz drama), which led to huge explosion. As result of this, wounds inside of Elynas were opened by explosions, and Melusines were created from them. Elynas was delighted, thought of them as his children and shaped them into what he thought was a beautiful form. They could hear him telepathically at first and he used this to guide and teach them, but with time, most of them lost this ability. The only one who can still hear him, Mamere, is able to do so because she paints with his blood (she doesn't know its his blood ofc), and so has prolonged contact with him. He still loves them and cares for them deeply.

Jakob tried to restart Elynas' heart with unknown goal, but Elynas didn't want to come back to life, stating that doing so would mean he will keep harming the world, which he doesn't want to. He appeared to traveler in the spirit form in a shape of Melusine bc he thinks they are cute:3 He dreams of being able to exist in the world without damaging it and to show traveler his true form eventually

i did not yet find all 13 pages for "Book of Esoteric Knowledge" quest, so here is probs more info to follow, but I think this is overall what we know of Elynas for now

oh, another thing is that every Melusine was born with a "token", which they don't know what it is, but highly treasure. Elynas doesn't mention them. This token can power a mechanical dog tho and dog calls it "power source". Elynas does mention many "mechanical animals" in the battle that resulted in explosion, so mb these power sources from exploded mechanisms interacting with abyss flesh were the triggers for creation of Melusines? Open question for now, hope to have these Eldritch NFTs explained later

[eternalflashh]

i give up. i've been thinking about the fontaine lore too much to not put my thoughts somewhere.

no, this is not at all going to be organized, because i hardly have it all together yet. but i've been trying to get a gist of fontaine's prophecy, and i'm just trying to put the pieces together after what we've learned of fontaine's history (albeit not much, and neither is the theory the best. i'm just thinking on paper here.) this is going to be *very long* by the way. very, very, very long.

naturally, beware of spoilers, particularly: fontaine AQs and world quests (narzissenkreuz, elynas (the melusines) — including the canotila side quest, institute of natural philosophy, khvarena), artifacts (nymph's dream, marechaussee hunter), weapon (fleuvre cendre ferryman)

also, disclaimer: i may be wrong. i am not a genius—kind of an idiot, really. i'm just thinking. thinking. read this as someone's journal, not the wiki entry.

here's a brief recap of the three fontaine world quests, because we're going to need them:

in the narzissenkreuz adventure team quest, we accompanied the tiny oceanid ann in order to save a "princess lyris", only to find out that she never existed and this was all a fictional tale—one, though, that has its roots in the real narzissenkreuz institute.

in the elynas quest, we saved mamere from getting her paintings stolen, and found out that she was painting with elynas's blood. a man named jakob ingold has been trying to collect this blood, and now, apparently tries to revive the dragon itself—for a cause that is beyond even the abyss's plans.

the quest with the institute of natural philosophy wasn't quite as plotful, aside from the fact that we simply were led to the institute thinking it was the narzissenkreuz institute, and found plenty of old records. it's also where the narzissenkreuz ordo's quarters was buried inside, and where we managed to unite ann and seymour to continue their story.

now, from the many ancient texts and artifact/weapon descriptions i've managed to piece a rough idea of what happened 500 years ago, which i will try my best to summarize coherently according to my understanding:

the narzissenkreuz institute, which had an oceanid as its director and basil elton as its vice, was a special unit founded with the purpose of protecting fontaine against the evils (of khaenri'ah, presumably). that being said, they housed orphaned childen. these included the mary-ann we see in "the real annapausis" (whose consciousness was transferred to our oceanid ann), alain, rene, and jakob.

it was said that "the director and her sisters went off to fight the evil at its source" (nymph's dream), which i'm assuming is khaenri'ah, while the vice director set off for the seas in the Sponsian ship where she eventually passed. shortly after, the institute was disbanded. before the vice director (basil elton) set off, though, she had entrusted the children of the institute to her close friends: emanuel gullotin and karl ingold (marechaussee hunter).

alain guillotin and mary-ann guillotin, taken up by emanuel, became marechaussee hunters; rene de petrichor and jakob ingold, in the meantime, headed for sumeru's girdle of the sands with karl ingold to research the remmants of the lord of amrita. (if you did the quest, you would've had "rene's investigation notes" in your inventory—which essentially describes what they've been researching; rene appears to have recently turned into a young adult, while jakob is still "a child", but they both sound... young.) it also seems that before this, they infiltrated elynas—in the investigation notes, they seem to be hiding their condition from karl; later we find that jakob seems to be surviving on elynas's blood.

sometime after this, alain guillotin is enrolled into the institute of natural philosophy where he researches (i assume) the mechanics of arkhe and pneuma-ousia annihilation; rene and jakob are also enrolled in there some time later. at first, they were working on the same research (alain's), until rene and alain eventually broke off their working relationship (noting that they, including mary-ann, still hung out together as friends), apparently having disagreed on something.

now we saw jakob ingold— which clearly means him having absorbed elynas's blood (and all those research) has somehow given him the powers of immortality, which rene and him had been researching in the desert; although it appears that rene has found a different way of implementing immortality. rene, in his "memories" as told in the book of revealing, discovered a way humans could surpass death by dissolving in the waters, their consciousness preserved even as doomsday comes (i assume this is how the water from the primordial sea came to be rediscovered after ages), and chose himself as the first test subject to be dissolved. alain, meanwhile, went off to establish the fontaine research institute that studied clockwork and created the meka we see roaming around fontaine now—i personally think the specific use of clockwork was intended to allude to the underlying goal to surpass their time. but yk, that might be overkill.

mary-ann's end, though, was never quite explicitly told. and in fact, the "mary-ann" we see in annapausis described the place in the book as her tomb, even though the story (whether the one we were going through, or the literal story you find in the fountain with the "statue of princess lyris") was unfinished. she might not have been a particularly "important" character in the history, but she was significant to each of the other childen— the various notes always expressed joy whenever they see mary-ann, may it be alain who was said to care for his sister (so much that he made her seymour), rene, jakob, even carter (alain's assistant).

this is important because, coincidentally, it resembles ann's role in the narzissenkreuz adventure team fairytale. ann was described to be their leader, a sort of mascot, among the team fighting against the fell dragon. and in fact, each of the characters we met resemble someone in reality: 'al' is from alain, 'ney' is from rene, 'jak' is from jakob, and 'mori' from seymour. (the others are... a bit complicated and i cannot yet discuss them because I'm Still Thinking, and that'll go besides my current point.) basically, the fairytale was literally told with the children as real life inspiration. (even though, of course, it was cut off quite annoyingly.)

then, it's worth understanding the tale to understand their true motives as well. the tale talks of the adventure team's existence essentially to help princess lyris to protect her realm and fight against the big bad evil, the fell dragon narcissus. narcissus was fighting her for "a treasure of hers that he did not have", and in order to help fight against this evil, princess lyris shared her time with her friends, time that allowed them to be ahead of the dragon's attacks. but in the end, the dragon still had the upper hand; eventually she trapped herself in the high tower, entrusting a treasure to the adventure team: a bright pearl of water.

common sense tells that this princess lyris alludes to the archon of their nation, egeria; the adventure team being the narzissenkreuz institute, while the fell dragon narcissus is the khaenri'ahn invasion. judging from this, then, it appears that the archon left behind this "bright pearl of water" as the last thing before she trapped herself in the high tower. and that's it— that's the end of the story, so we don't know how the rest of history went. well, except for the fact that the former hydro archon is, in fact, dead, and now we are left with a most ominous prophecy: of the original sin, of why it's exclusive to fontaine, of why the oceanids do not recognize their current archon, of why furina is exempt from this prophecy—and what she is waiting for.

i have so many questions, and no idea of how to approach them in a methodical manner—so i will first point out all the things that bother me.

i wondered why this problem is exclusive to fontaine. regarding there is a problem of exception mentioned in rene's notes, where the children's constitution are different from karl's; i still have no idea the nature of this distinction, only that rene and jakob's bodies are like the power of the sacred lotus (i.e., the former archon's power). at first i thought that this distinction may be the reason for them being susceptible to the primordial seawater's effects, but without understanding the distinction, it doesn't help in answering the question.

then, again, i wondered what their real motives was. neuvillette says that the former archon left furina with the prophecy—but it doesn't sound like a problem so much as a statement of what's to come. we don't know what egeria actually believed. but i went back to the final feast teaser, and found that egeria actually had some narration:

the original sin is the fairest: everyone sinks. make the most of the final feast, because for the sinners, the curtain call has come.

which certainly does make it sound like she sees them all as sinners, and that they have always been bound to sink.

the interesting thing is— this might not necessarily be a bad thing, no matter how we see it as a crisis. even the victims of the disappearances case regard dissolving into the waters as "relief" (vigniere from the AQ); even the people say this is just like returning to whence they came from, and mary-ann of the sunflower annapausis says that together, as one body of water, they can become strong. in line with this, perhaps rene's act of dissolving into the seawater doesn't seem so much as a radical act anymore.

i always come back to this line at the storybook:

"So, in Narcissus's story, I'm the evil villain?

it may sound like an innocent question, but a fairly odd one for a child to be asking. and i believe it says more than it seems. for one, i'd like to point out that narcissus is another term for the flower daffodil, which symbolizes rebirth—the narzissenkreuz also means "narcissus cross", aka, death of rebirth. which makes sense when you think that they're enemies of "the fell dragon". but why would they be fighting rebirth? perhaps because the narzissenkreuz institute were fighting the prophecy, which they, including egeria, perhaps, believed at the time to be a good thing.

i say "at the time" because, look at what became of the children. in essence, they became "villains". rene, for one, founded a source of the primordial sea, which was certainly what led to the current problems—and, hence, what would lead to the realizing of the prophecy. jakob is out here trying to revive elynas in order to use his blood to strengthen human lifespans, so that they can overcome the surmised cataclysm that would come? to turn everyone immortal? meanwhile, alain's deviced a way to subvert the usage of celestia's elements by making work of pneuma-ousia power. essentially, they are each fighting for rebirth, instead of fighting against rebirth. perhaps not precisely rebirth, but a way to preserve humanity, to subvert the crisis. even mary-ann, in a sense, had managed to attain this goal, by preserving all her memories—despite it being unfinished—in that storybook.

and in fact, perhaps that's also why the story ended there—because it was that point, when the cataclysm occurred, where the story's moral had shifted, and they had each lost their original intention to fight. because they then realized that they needed better ways of handling this crisis, only to have one of them revert to that crisis itself. tl;dr: the prophecy ceased from being a crisis, instead becoming rene's perceived solution. which is.... interesting, to say the least.

again, it sounds radical, but it may very well hold water. one interesting thing i noted from the canotila quest was that where we saw the dark power of the abyss in "the end of things" as predicted by the world-formula, canotila instead saw a nice place with flowers, etc. and when we were talking to elynas, he noted that "the things they (the primordial dragons) enjoyed were not things that humans valued". it's similar to this situation—two different viewpoints may see the same thing to be two very different things; either salvation or destruction. which then brings a lot of suspense toward the resolution of the AQ—what, truly, will become the best solution for them? would being dissolved save the people of fontaine? or would they find a way to subvert both the dissolution and the destruction? (obviously, it's probably the latter—the question, as always, would be how? to answer that, we need to know more on why they are subject to this sin, and that is not a question i can answer, despite this Very Long Rambling. i am most stressed)

but if nothing else, at least i've figured that the foretelling of this disaster is something that's originated far before the cataclysm, from egeria's time. perhaps it'd be something like rukkhadevata & nahida, where rukkhadevata had her own way of solving the issue with combating forbidden knowledge, but it led to a whole other issue, and nahida had to find her own solution.

one thing still perplexes me, though— furina's perspective in all this.

at first i thought she may be the "pearl of water" referred to in the storytale, since it would make sense that that's where the next archon comes in—but since furina is supposed to be older than nahida (as said by neuvillette in nahida's introduction), it seems unlikely. though it's always possible that this happened several years before the cataclysm, it wouldn't align very nicely; one would assume the princess trapping in her tower to be an event that took place during the peak of the cataclysm, so the life born out of the pearl must be sometime after that. but the possibility remains.

or perhaps one shouldn't take the story too literally, and assume she was simply handed the gnosis after egeria's passing—but why? who is she to begin with? and what then is the pearl of water that the princess left to the narzissenkreuz? it must bear significance, if it was left in the story at all (and something the storyteller felt important enough to be named after the child she was telling the story to, lyris). perhaps the pearl thing was only an expression, and it was meant to allude to the passing of her gnosis to the next archon. but of course, this is only conjecture.

furina's behavior... is perhaps simply a consequence of her original personality, under her circumstances. her personality aside, though, what would her woes we hear in the fountain mean? what does she mean when she say "interminable"—what, exactly, is she waiting for in unbearable loneliness? it doesn't make much sense for her to be waiting for the prophecy to come; otherwise, she'd have no reason to research it for so long, gathering intelligence, when she hardly cares for the nation's affairs. surely she wouldn't be waiting for divine intervention to come save her from her business? lyney and lynette note that she always appears to be "acting"—so what is she acting for? why does she aim to judge other gods? if she wants to prove that other nations are also at fault for "sinning", then wouldn't she need more time, instead of being impatient? nothing seems to add up with her. perhaps she wants to save everyone, but perhaps she is tired as well. perhaps she doesn't feel like she's capable of it, and wishes for release to come instead. is that what it is? who knows. who knows. it's impossible to tell, with someone with so many faces.... it's very interesting. furina is certainly a very interesting archon.

anyways. that was long and this doesn't hold much water to it (get it) but. i had to dump my thoughts somewhere. i'll get back to it when i find more information, when more thoughts come to hound me,,,,,, yeah. anyway.

[yaeggravate]

Kaeya, The Snow Queen and The Boar Princess

i believe kaeya is partly based on kai from the fairy tale the snow queen.

this is a theory that has been floating around for a while, but after recent events i would like to revisit and expand on it.

the thing is, the book the boar pincess that you can collect in the game is inspired by the snow queen. this book, aside from being quite disturbing, is potentially very important to the lore, as it was written by a member from the hexenzirkel, andersdotter, whose name is a nod to the author of the snow queen, hans christian anderson.

since kaeya is potentially a character from the snow queen, that would mean he might be connected to the other characters from the boar princess. i thought it would be fun to try and figure out the hows and whys.

please note that this will contain spoilers for every archon and world quest up until 4.1.

KAEYA AND KAI

i'll start by giving a brief summary of what the snow queen is about.

an evil troll created a magic mirror that would distort every beautiful thing reflected in it. this mirror shattered upon the earth, scattering its shards everywhere.

one day, a shard would lodge itself into the eye and heart of a young boy named kai. kai suddenly became very mean and cold towards everyone, even his childhood friend gerda, who was like a sister to him.

the snow queen whisked kai away, so gerda went on a long journey to save him. eventually, the shards melted because of gerda's compassion and love for him.

THE SIMILARITIES

most obvious similarities are their names. not much to say here, really. they just added a "ya" after "kai"

凯 = Kai 凯亚 = Kǎi yà

the story of the snow queen is a metaphor about losing your childhood innocence as you grow up.

in recent patches, it's been emphasized quite a few times that kaeya wants to protect klee's childhood and shield her from the cruelty of life. kaeya has also mentioned that he wished people could stay young forever and not deal with the troubles of adulthood.

kaeya and kai both changed drastically after their eyes were damaged.

kaeya's kit has some possible references to the snow queen: his fourth constellation frozen kiss could refer to the (platonic!!) kiss the snow queen gives kai.

极寒的轻吻 = Gentle Kiss of Extreme Cold

"Are you still cold?" she asked, and she kissed him on the forehead. Ugh! it was colder than ice, it went to his very heart, which was already more than half ice; he felt as if he were dying, but only for a moment, and then it seemed to have done him good; he no longer felt the cold.

his ultimate, which is a couple of a icicles spinning around him, has this voiceline when cast:

 …这刹那，将是你的永恒。= …This moment will be your eternity.

this could refer to kai having to spell out "eternity" with shards of ice.

[…] made many patterns forming words, but he never could find out the right way to place them for one particular word, a word he was most anxious to make. It was "Eternity."

we even get prince baited 💀 as gerda mistakenly believed kai became a prince by marrying a princess.

THE CURSED MIRROR

if you've played the melusines quest, you probably know where this is going.

we learn that, like durin, elynas and the melusines perceive things differently from regular humans. elynas and durin were abyssal beings brought to life by rhinedottir. elynas and durin both believed they were having fun on the surface, but they did not realize they were harmful to the humans and the environment around them.

melusines claim to see the "truth" of the world, or at least something close to it.

in the book of estoric revelations quest, we are dragged into a ruined post-apocalyptic world. however, the melusine canotila does not see destruction when she enters, but a beautiful serene garden. she does not see terrifying rifthounds but regular dogs.

Canotila: Perhaps you've heard that we Melusines can see things that humans cannot see… But for some reason, I see things differently, even when compared to other Melusines. I can always find things that have been hidden. I have read that the "nature" of things is hidden beneath them, and this "nature" decides their "future." Not that I know what that means…

why this is the case is unclear, but it might have something to do with the melusines being born from elynas.

anyway, back to the snow queen, all of this is very reminiscent of the troll's magic mirror that would distort every beautiful thing reflected in it…

Some of these bits were not as big as a grain of sand, and these flew about all over the world, getting into people's eyes, and, once in, they stuck there, and distorted everything they looked at, or made them see everything that was amiss.

the question is, who is actually seeing reality, us or the melusines? and does this have something to do with kaeya and pierro both covering their right eye?

remember how kaeya has a voiceline comparing himself to an owl that can see through things... a bit similar to what canotila said before.

Interesting Things: Have you ever seen the owl of Dragonspine? If you look directly at it, it seems to see right through you, while letting go of none of its own secrets... Quite fascinating, don't you think?

the goddess of flowers, nabu malikata also has something interesting to say about illusions breaking through the shackles of the land.

"And though the invaders (second who came) brought war to my former kin (seelies), they also brought about illusions that could break through shackles to the land. But the master of the heavens (heavenly principles), consumed by fear for the rising tide of delusion and breakthroughs, sent down the divine nails to mend the land, laying waste to the mortal realm…"

and last but not least, an abandoned letter to knight marshal anfortas mentions khaenri'ah throwing off the shackles of the world...

Of course, I am keenly aware that the four pillars of our kingdom have achieved the prosperity they have today precisely thanks to us spying upon secrets from beyond the skies, and thus have our mechanisms been able to throw off the shackles imposed by this world's laws...

it's unclear what the nature of this power is, exactly, but it's speculated to be forbidden knowledge.

THE BOAR PRINCESS AND THE WOLF PUP

brief summary of the boar princess: once, there was a wolf pup who was cursed by an evil sorcerer. the wolf pup swallowed the sorcerer but by doing so his heart was pierced by an icicle and he became cold and mean.

upon hearing what happened, the boar princess felt great sympathy for the wolf pup and set out on a journey to save him… she accomplished this by sacrificing her two friends to him.

…i don't think i need to explain the similarities to the snow queen here.

it's highly likely the boar princess is an analogy of real events in the history of teyvat. this has happened before with nahida and scara, when she turned his backstory into a fairytale to keep it safe from irminsul alterations.

they've also referenced the book quite a few times this year, even going as far as to show alhaitham reading it in official art. this might mean they want us to remember this book or the book is simply being memed on because of its disturbing ending.

so, who are the boar princess and the wolf pup? to start with, they are meant to represent gerda and kai. notably, there is no snow queen equivalent in the story, instead it's the boar princess or gerda who is the titular character. this could mean the boar princess IS the snow queen or would become her later on…

THE BOAR PRINCESS

the following is pure speculation but personally, i have long suspected the boar princess is the tsaritsa for a number of reasons, not just because the boar princess could be the snow queen.

The Snow Queen (Russian: Снежная королева, romanized: Snezhnaya Koroleva).

it is heavily implied the tsaritsa is or was the god of love.

Dainsleif: She is a god whom no one will love ever again. She is a god who will never love anyone again.

the snow queen tries to make kai forget about his love for gerda. even so, the most important message of both books is that love is an all-encompassing force that conquers all.

the boar princess is described as a generous soul. likewise we are told multiple times of the tsaritsa's benevolence.

About Tsaritsa: Her Royal Highness the Tsaritsa is actually a gentle soul. Too gentle, in fact, and that's why she had to harden herself.

tartaglia's voiceline reveals that the tsaritsa is a gentle person, maybe a bit too gentle. this matches the boar princess sympathizing with the wolf pup, almost to the point of insanity, as she sacrifices her friends to save him.

"No one deserves this fate." The good princess sheds a tear of compassion.

Friendship demands sacrifice. No friendships come without sacrifices.

perhaps these two friends were venti and zhongli, specifically, their gnoses. or perhaps it's meant to represent god remains that the tsaritsa is possibly using to create delusions.

Venti: Five hundred years ago, I knew her well. But I can't say the same is true now. You see, a certain catastrophe happened five hundred years ago, and after that, she cut off all ties with me.

with all that being said, i should mention that according to the story, the boar princess might be from mondstadt, so that could put a dent in this theory. however, it's not impossible that the tsaritsa was originally from mondstadt.

THE WOLF PUP

the identity of the wolf pup is a bit harder to figure out as there are several characters refererred to as wolf pup. namely rostam, who was signora's lover, and the first knight of boreas. it could also be andrius himself.

but since this theory hinges on this assumption that the boar princess is the tsaritsa, the wolf pup must be someone she was willing to make great sacrifices for.

this line from pierro implies that both the tsaritsa and pierro know what the gnoses are, as neuvilette also refers to his stolen powers as authority.

Pierro: In the name of Her Majesty, the Tsaritsa, we will seize authority from the gods.

one possibility is that the tsaritsa is working with a dragon to get their powers back.

but how can a wolf pup be a dragon? wolf pup is merely an analogy. he might have nothing to do with wolves at all. just like how scaramouche has no cat motives or association with cats, yet he was portrayed as a cat in the fairy tale. and we know dragons don't all look the same. azhdaha is a giant…bull thing and apep is a worm.

still, it wouldn't be too far-fetched if the wolf pup was a wolf. in norse mythology, for example, there exists the mythical wolf fenrir who was destined to kill odin.

...as you know, khaenri'ah borrows a lot from scandanavian mythology. if this wolf pup is a dragon, they could be one of the sovereigns, specifically the cryo sovereign.

the second possible identity of the pup is pierro because of this line which might hint at visual similarities

The pup was a carefree child who had bright blue eyes and slick gray fur.

pierro has one visible bright blue eye and long gray hair with one blue streak in it.

pierro has one eye covered (like kaeya) which might reference the shard of ice piercing kai's eye and the wolf pup's heart.

pierro is from khaenri'ah so it is likely he is or was cursed like the wolf pup.

oh, and i want to clear up a common misconception about pierro: he does NOT have the same open gem pupils as dainsleif and clothar. it's hard to tell but if you zoom in, they're actually closed like kaeya's. what the meaning behind this is, is unknown. but visual similarities between kaeya and pierro DO exist.

pierro has also mentioned that the tsaritsa knows his pain well just like how the boar princess sympathizes with the wolf pup's predicament.

Pierro: Then I shall become instead a fool, a Fatuus, and devote myself to Her Majesty, who understands my pain...

the third possibility is the first knight of boreas. the new weapon wolf-fang gives us more information about him. the story seems to have taken place a 1000 years ago, back when venessa was the grand master of the knights of favonius.

what's interesting is that this nameless knight used coins with strange symbols as payment indicating that he might have been from a place free from the rule of the seven. this could've been the dark sea which includes places like enkanomiya and possibly khaenri'ah.

Some noticed the exquisitely crafted yet battle-worn armor beneath the cape. But that didn't mean anything. Perhaps the armor's bearer was just another lost soul who had lost their prestigious position with the changes wrought by revolution. The tavern's owner noticed that the man paid with real gold and silver coins, though none recognized the symbols on them.

not much is known about him, as he only stayed in mondstadt for a few years.

this brings me to the matter of what exactly happened to the wolf pup. it seems he was corrupted by an evil that changed his personality and possibly the way he perceived the world. his friends ended up shunning him leaving him all alone.

perhaps this is an analogy for being corrupted by the abyss or it has something to do with the Curse (tm).

after that, the boar princess came along and presumably cured him by way of sacrificing lives.

...

okay, so what does this have to do with kaeya? good question!

i have no idea.

here's the thing, i am reasonably certain kaeya is at least partly inspired by kai. and i am a 100% certain the boar princess is inspired by the snow queen.

if kaeya is kai and the wolf pup is also kai, then that could hint at a connection between them. but in what manner i can't say.

they could also have absolutely nothing to do with each other, like how fischl has no known connection to the real "princess fischl". (though it would be cool if there was.) in that case, kaeya might just be a narrative parallel to the wolf pup.

either way, it's something to think about.

Kaeya: History always repeats itself. When you keep this in mind and watch out for the echoes of past events in the present, things that appear unfathomable at first glance become much easier to comprehend.

[taviokapudding]

I love that Sigewinne plays dumb because after seeing spoilers and more in depth lore of what the people of Fontaine have done to melusines, I completely understand.

It's not manipulation (which is what I keep seeing people complain about) but rather a genuine response to have. And as a first generation American who can pass for white & someone with a medical background I totally get it. I strongly believe a lot of mixed and immigrant kids are going to understand once they get the full picture.

It's genuienely safer to play dumb when dealing with strangers to avoid a racist, or in her case, speciesist response. Doubly if you're very cute/feminine presenting and work in a science/medial/engineering heavy field, don't get me s t a r t e d.

I'm relieved she & the rest of the melusines have people like Wriothesley, Clorinde, and Neuvillette around because I genuienely think the melusines would have risked crossing the desert for Sumeru for safety & peace had Neuvi especially not been around.

I would love to get into it further but Ima keep my mouth shut and encourage to never skip dialouge, play world quests & hangouts, and read if you want the bigger picture. And also always wait for all info to be released - making knee jerk assumptions & reaches for out of context leaks is actually fucking stupid behavior (doubly if you're not just speculating/theorizing and take it as truth)

[bi-turtle-enthusiast]

i need to rant about the narzissenkreuz ordo and melusines. spoilers for the narzissenkreuz ordo quests and all melusine quests.

i'm literally going insane. THE NARZISSENKREUZ ORDO STUDIED THE CATACLYSM. THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE ONES WHO SUMMONED THE TRAVELER TO TEYVAT.

I think Carter and Caterpillar are the same person.

This lore bomb also provides a really interesting glimpse into teyvat's timeline and provides some more context to the cataclysm and what each nation was dealing with!! So far, we've got: -mondstadt dealing with durin -liyue dealing with abyssal corruption in the form of a plague and madness -inazuma dealing with the brunt of the riftwolves -sumeru dealing with the brunt of the forbidden knowledge outbreak, leading to rukkhadevata's sacrifice -fontaine dealing with elynas and those weird ass breacher primuses and rift portals

There's also multiple forms of corruption, as we've learned! -abyssal corruption (caused by contact with abyssal energy) -archon residue (remains of dead gods which can both poison and grant power) -forbidden knowledge (linked with abyssal corruption, caused by contact with forbidden knowledge and leading to hilichurl-ification, eleazar, and more)

Durin and Elynas are more than likely related, especially considering the fact that both are associated with scarlet quartz and the color red. Given that Durin was created by Gold, it's not impossible that Elynas was too. They also share a lot of similarities, such as their personalities (Durin thought it was playing when it was destroying Mondstadt and wanted to befriend Venti and Dvalin, and Elynas is a benevolent and kind creature whose blood was unfortunately poison).

Every so often, Teyvat has some sort of cataclysmic event. That's how the Narzissenkreuz ordo was able to create the world formula—whether this formula was accurate or not, they clearly saw some sort of pattern. Before the big Cataclysm where the travelers got separated, there was the forbidden knowledge outbreak that lead to Deshret's fall. Before that, it's not impossible that the Second Who Came (the one who fought the Primordial One) was a form of a calamity. The time interval for these events might be around 500 years, given that the world formula shows that we're right on the brink of another calamity.

I'm really not sure what happened with the Ordo's prophesy about a calamity. Either they were able to mitigate the effects of the cataclysm by summoning the Travelers, who are able to cleanse corruption, or they inadvertently brought about the cataclysm through their efforts to prevent it. I'll have to reread the lore but i'm leaning towards the former.

AND THE MELUSINES. THE SIBLINGS OF ELYNAS. They're dragons, kind of!!!! And holy shit Neuvillette being the reborn hydro dragon and NOT Kokomi is insane. I still think there's some connection between the two of them and goddammit i'm going to figure it out.

Speaking of Kokomi. What if Orobashi was the original hydro dragon? Or connected to it in some way?

[hpscaling]

((Putting this under a cut since it's spoilers and leak talk and such.

Some extremely kind soul did a summary on one of the threads in the leak subreddit of the Fontaine world quests and this caught my attention.

So Elynas was taken down during the same time as the fall of Khaenri'ah. It caused me to actually look up more of the lore, and according to the wiki, the events that created the Melusines happened roughly 400 years ago.

And according to that article about Neuvillette, he was the chief justice of Fontaine for quite a while before the Melusine appeared. I think I read something else that said someone else was chief justice when Furina first took over, though? Or was that just speculation? Honestly I'm going to guess that the article was at least correct that Neuvillette was in the public eye before the Melusine existed so he's been the chief justice for at least 400 years.

We need more concrete lore. Time for me to look up Neuvillette's stories to see if it actually says anything about it.

[genshinnrambles]

[4.1] The Primordial Sea Pt. 2: Creation as the Key to Sin

EDIT (1/20/2024): to you, reader of the future, past me was very very wrong about this theory! like, misunderstood the lore levels of wrong. so take this post as fanfic if nothing else, it is not correct especially in the understanding of how imagination played into Caterpillar’s creation. Sorry for the blunder!

In 4.0, I wrote two theories: one was a short speculative theory on the nature of the Primordial Sea, and the second was a theory about Rhinedottir and the reason she is considered a “sinner.” With 4.1’s release, including the Archon Quest and the world quest Unfinished Comedy, I believe there is now enough information for a short follow-up theory that synthesizes them and makes one more attempt to understand 1) what it means to be a “sinner” in Teyvat, and 2) what it means to be “born with sin.”

SPOILERS: Fontaine Archon Quest up to the end of Act IV, Ancient Colors, and some dialogue from the end of Unfinished Comedy, which is a world quest with the NPC Caterpillar in the Fortress of Meropide. You have been warned!

edit: please excuse some formatting errors I’ve noticed that are only visible on mobile with some of the bulleted lists. on web, the post seems to be okay. I will fix these asap!

First I’d like to summarize the two previous theories and their main findings/points. They’re linked above if you’d like to read them in full, but it’s not necessary to follow the rest of this post.

In the Primordial Sea theory, I theorized that it could be either of these two things:

The blood of some higher being.

Who: Either Nibelung or the first Hydro Sovereign, based on the weapon ascension material lore from Fontaine

Why: 

The copious End of Evangelion references in the Fontaine AQ, including how Primordial Seawater behaves so similarly to LCL, which is the blood of Lilith, who is the progenitor of humanity in Evangelion

Several life forms in Genshin have arisen from a higher being’s blood too such as the Melusine and the Jinn (technically, in the latter’s case).

The “water” in Elynas is described as “blood” by Jakob, a very peculiar description given all of the above

The amniotic fluid of the egg that hatched the Primordial One

Why: Idk man it just seemed like a possibility at the time.

Needless to say, as time goes on I’m more convinced that it’s likely the first option, blood. I have even more reasons beyond the above to believe so, but they will be outlined in another theory I’m working on right now about the Urstone in Yoimiya’s second story quest.

In the theory about Rhinedottir and the meaning of “sin,” I used Sigmund Freud’s psychoanalytic theory of dream interpretation as a framework to understand how Rhinedottir is “positioned,” so to speak, as an alchemist and creator of life. In summary:

Freud thought the psychological significance of dreams was to fulfill wishes that we haven’t fulfilled either because we have repressed them into the unconscious or cannot fulfill them in real life for one reason or another

He thought that the reason we dream is that the “wish” is attempting to be remembered and acknowledged by our ego – the dream is produced as the wish tries to cross the boundary between the conscious and the unconscious (and this boundary is “where” dreams occur)

A wish is, in essence, a thought – and dreams are the translation of a thought into images.

With this analogy in mind, here is how Rhinedottir and her dragon children fit into it:

Teyvat and everything under the rule of the Seven is the conscious/ego

The Abyss and everything outside of the rule of the Seven is the unconscious

Elynas and Durin and all of their unnamed siblings are repressed/unfulfilled wishes. A direct reference to this is actually made in the lore text for Festering Desire, where Rhinedottir does seem to explicitly refer to them as unfulfilled wishes.

Rhinedottir, then, is the “dreamer,” because she translates these “thoughts” into “images” with the power of alchemy.

The reason that this makes Rhinedottir a “sinner” is because “sinning” and “dreaming” have a pre-existing association in Genshin. An example would be the Sinshades of Tokoyo, which are afterimages of the strong emotions of Enkanomiya’s former citizens.

Freud believed these “strong emotions” are what underlie an unfulfilled wish.

The “afterimage” is a translation of the “thought” or “strong emotion” that Istaroth preserved into something with “form.” 

Just like a dream (if you exclude daydreams, I suppose) only happens at night, when the “censorship” that protects our ego from repressed thoughts is weakest, the Sinshades only appear during Evernight when the Hyperion sun is extinguished.

I largely stand by everything in these two theories still, but I think what Rhinedottir theory fails to do in its current state is make clear that sinning is about more than just "dreaming," but creating life.

The Meaning of Sin: Imagination

Caterpillar, the NPC who exists somewhere between the boundary of human and Hilichurl, has something very interesting to say at the end of Unfinished Comedy when we ask him about his master, Rene (who he calls “Narzissenkreuz”), and whether or not Rene “created” him:

Caterpillar: Also, it is not quite correct to say that he "created me." Traveler: How so? Caterpillar: Creation is a feat for a god... If we may call the one above a "god." Caterpillar: In the tenets of Narzissenkreuz, do you know what is most critical in creating someone? Paimon: What is it? Caterpillar: It's imagination. Imagining a person, down to the last detail, akin to an Oceanid imagining a creature in the wild. Caterpillar: There's a story that tells of a powerful mage-priest imagining his own son, only to realize he himself was the product of someone else's imagination.

Now, I cannot emphasize enough how huge this dialogue is for solving the Archon Quest’s mystery. “Imagination” is the key – it is, at its core, just like the process of dreaming: translating thoughts into images. The only difference is that dreaming is an unconscious process that happens when we’re asleep, while using your imagination is an active, conscious process.

The other key is that creation is a feat for a god, so if someone usurps that power, they have “sinned.” Creation is so closely related here and in general to using your imagination and dreaming, translating thoughts into images and giving them “forms,” so to be “born with sin,” I think, can’t be anything short of this: being created with a power that does not “belong” to your creator.

So, let’s think about the Primordial Sea again and the prophecy: the Primordial Sea is supposed to be the origin of all life forms, and just as it gave rise to them, it will someday devour them again and cleanse their sins. If Fontainians are the only ones who dissolve when they touch Primordial Seawater, then this origin from the Primordial Sea is either so diluted in other humans in Teyvat as to be inconsequential, OR this origin is truly unique to Fontainians alone. In other words, the specific way that Fontainians were created is fundamentally different from how other humans in Teyvat were created. They were created by a power that was “usurped,” meaning that their creator is not a "true god," if we go off what Caterpillar said.

At the end of Act IV, Neuvillette uses what remains of his Authority of Hydro to push back the Primordial Sea and overrule its imminent sentencing, if only temporarily. Now, I’m still very hesitant to say that this Primordial Sea/Blood belongs to the former Hydro Sovereign Scylla, if only because it seems that Scylla and the God-King Remus went to the Primordial Sea together in the Broken Goblet of the Pristine Sea lore. Otherwise, Scylla is kinda the prime suspect here.

But to be honest, I think I was also wrong to say the Primordial Sea only ever had one “origin,” though I do think even more so now that one of those origins is a Sovereign (whether that’s Scylla or Nibelung [hmmmmmmm] or whoever). What I missed from the weapon ascension material lore is the allusion that the primordial sea is a mixture of both pure water and “ichor.” It seems that what Remus, the Usurper-King, used to create his kingdom was the ichor:

“Combining the immortal stone with the Ichor essence extracted from primordial water, and carved into a race as black as iron— with arcane lithos for skin and Ichor for blood, never again fearing the curse of returning to the primeval past…” –Wine Goblet of the Pristine Sea

And that ichor that Remus extracted is likely abyssal in nature too. This is clear from the effects of Sinthe on people who ingest it - euphoria, difficulty controlling emotions, similar to getting drunk (which, yes, its namesake is likely Absinthe). As said in A Drunkard’s Tale: "What you humans call wine, we wolves call the abyss."

This also ties back to Rhinedottir and how she created her dragons. The “medium” that Rhinedottir uses to “dream” is her alchemy, and the ingredients she used seems to have been abyssal in nature as well, hence the special “blood” or “ichor” that ran through both Durin and Elynas’ veins. 

The Pure Water is likely what makes the Primordial Sea respond to Neuvillette’s authority, the “dragon” part of the Primordial Sea. So what’s up with the Abyss likely being in there too? What’s really going on here, and how is it connected with the whale?

I’m especially curious about this bit from Golden Bird’s Shedding:

“It was at this very moment that the golden era suddenly ceased, plunging down into ceaseless war and rebellion. The throne chamber was filled with cries of conquest and destruction and the agony of the barbarian tribes, and the God King awoke, startled.”

…because that sounds an awful lot like Deshret “waking up” amidst the wars in Gurabad, especially this short excerpt from Staff of the Scarlet Sands:

“"The Sand King sleeps alone in secret dreams, drawing up new theorems." "None shall have to drink salt water in the King's realm, for everything in the new world shall be good." 

Did Remus find Forbidden Knowledge too? And if so…where/how?

I said this was going to be short, so I’m gonna wrap things up here despite there being more rabbit holes to go down. But I think this is it - the bearer of the “original sin,” the original sinner of Fontaine if you will, was likely Remus, who usurped the power of creation. This is the only reason that I can think Fontainians are different from other humans in Teyvat . One last thing to note is that, from the Wine Goblet of the Pristine Sea, it does sound like the prophecy predates even Remuria itself and that Remus was trying to transcend that fate by creating his golems. Maybe Remus even first heard of this prophecy from Scylla when they went to the sea together. This is why I'm trying to be so specific - he was the first to try and transcend this fated end in Fontaine.

As for how or why these “sins” persist, why or how they keep being reborn after the great flood reclaims the "ichor" that was stolen from it....I think only the Golden Troupe and Rene de Petrichor knew. 

On the bright side, let’s say everybody gets dissolved in the finale of Act V and Furina really is the only one left, weeping on her throne: as long as she remembers everyone, can imagine them down to the last detail, she should be able to bring everyone back. But if it goes that way, the cycle would probably just repeat. Surely she has another plan?

Anyway, thanks for reading! If you have a different take I’d also be happy to hear it, as this doesn't come close to covering everything and I'm sure there's still a lot of holes re: Remurian civilization details.

[genshinnrambles]

[4.0] some theories about the primordial sea

Neuvillete: There used to be a special sea on the surface of this planet. The nature of its seawater was rather different from that of the sea we know today...

I’ve been thinking a lot about the primordial sea since finishing the Archon Quest. 

SPOILERS: This post presumes you’ve finished the Archon Quest but does not actually talk about the plot points of it. It does spoil a bit of Ancient Colors, the Melusine world quest that takes place in Elynas, as well as a bit of Ann of Narzissenkreuz. It also references some weapon ascension lore.

It didn’t click for me right away, but by now I’m sure a lot of you who have seen End of Evangelion recognized the similarities between the primordial seawater and LCL fluid, and you have also probably noticed the similarities between Rene and Jakob’s Big Plan™ and the Human Instrumentality Project (what is this, the fourth Human Instrumentality parallel so far?). If you haven’t seen End of Evangelion, or aren’t familiar with Eva in general, here’s the gist of what this reference means:

In Evangelion, humans are all descended from Lilith, who is the Second Angel to make contact with Earth. Humanity’s “original sin” is taking Earth from Adam, the First Angel who already existed on Earth before Lilith collided with it in what is known as the First Impact.

Specifically, humans arose from Lilith’s blood, a fluid they know as “LCL.” A shadowy organization named SEELE initiates the Human Instrumentality Project to attempt to “correct” humanity’s sin of existing, and it involves among many other things the union of all souls with both Lilith and Adam. Naturally, in practice this means everyone’s gotta dissolve into LCL and lose the forms that distinguish them as individuals, thereby ascending to a higher plane of existence and in effect “evolving” as a species. Sound a little familiar? 

This brings us to theory #1: the primordial sea is…blood. Before dealing with the question of who or what the source of that blood could be, let’s look at some in-game support for this idea:

1. We already know and have seen multiple forms of life born from the wounds of higher beings in the game: the Melusines were born from the wounds on Elynas, and the Jinn were born from Nilotpala Lotuses that bloomed in pools of blood that gushed from the Goddess of Flowers’ body. What’s more, Jakob Ingold’s abyssal form likens the “water” running through Elynas’s body to blood as he attempts to wake up Elynas’s heart. So next time you swim through Elynas, double-check if you’re swimming through an artery!

Veleda: We Melusines were born of Elynas. So i’ve often been wondering – how did the first human in this world come to be?

2. This line from the weapon ascension material Wine Goblet of the Pristine Sea:

“Combining the immortal stone with the Ichor essence extracted from primordial water…”

“Ichor” being the blood-like fluid of a higher being. It’s not quite a smoking gun, the primordial sea could still be a mixture of ichor and something else, but it’s something to chew on for now.

3. This very suspicious panel from the Genshin Impact manga, which is Venti’s answer to Aether’s question of whether or not entering Celestia makes you a god:

While it’s not a perfect example for the point at hand, there is still the analogy of a higher being’s blood becoming the sea. 

Now, for the “source” question…upon reflecting on just “who” or “what” this sea of blood could have come from, I’m unfortunately left with no satisfying possible candidates. The only creature I can think of that could be the likely source of the primordial sea, other than the Primordial One, is one of the dragon sovereigns, potentially the Dragon King Nibelung. But we know virtually nothing about Nibelung, and we know very little about Teyvat’s history during the time of the dragons. So it’s not that this theory isn’t possible, but it is very difficult to support it beyond mere conjecture based on what we currently know.

And what about the sea being the Primordial One’s blood? I’m not really convinced that it’s a good candidate for the primordial sea’s source if the sea is indeed blood. Instead, I want to take a slightly different approach by drawing attention to the repeated use of the phrase “amniotic fluid” to refer to the sea. I have counted it at least twice so far in-game, let me know if you’ve seen it elsewhere:

Ann, the little oceanid that seems to have some of Mary-Ann Guillotin’s memories, says she has seen “the primordial waters, the amniotic fluid of the world, and its placenta, devoured to the last.”

In the Nymphs Dream artifact set, the Fell-Dragon’s Monocle, it states: "The star-beasts shall drink the amniotic fluid of the world dry. A hundred years from then, all life on its surface shall be wiped away" (this example doesn’t explicitly say primordial sea, but coupled with the above example I will speculate that they are referring to the same thing).

And while amniotic fluid of some sort is present in many different kinds of animal gestation, including mammals, I did find the use of “amniotic fluid” to refer to the sea very interesting considering that the Primordial One is said to have hatched from an egg:

"On Phanes, or The Primordial One" The Primordial One may have been Phanes. It had wings and a crown, and was birthed from an egg, androgynous in nature. But for the world to be created, the egg's shell had to be broken. However, Phanes, the Primordial One, used the eggshell to separate the "universe" and the "microcosm of the world."

So, with some hesitation, theory #2: the primordial sea is from the amnion in the Primordial One’s egg? Assuming the egg hatched on Teyvat, it’s a possibility for a source at the very least? But there are lots of holes in this theory too. For example, Before Sun and Moon does not go into detail about how exactly humans were created, just that the Primordial One and one of its shades created them, including all the plants and animals (and I assume by this they mean new plants and animals, because we know from Apep that Teyvat already had elemental lifeforms before the Primordial One took the world from the sovereigns).

Personally, I am very skeptical of Before Sun and Moon’s Genesis story and would not regard it as a reliable source as far as the details go. The possibility that the primordial sea predates even the Primordial One is still very likely, especially given this line from the Broken Goblet of the Pristine Sea:

“Legend says that when the first usurper came to the primordial sea, the first sovereign gave him a goblet of water.”

I am assuming from the rest of this material’s context that “the first usurper” here does not refer to the Primordial One, but to Remus, the God King of Remuria, and as for the first sovereign…perhaps the Hydro Dragon, or Nibelung?

In any case, this is as far as I’ve gotten on the question of what the primordial sea is exactly. I’m not more partial to one theory over the other, so whether it’s a sea of blood, it came from the Primordial One’s egg, or it’s something completely different from that, I will only be surprised if the primordial sea was naturally occurring like the theorized primordial ooze that gave rise to life on our planet.

Concluding Thoughts

What do you know, a relatively shorter post from me! I still have a lot to say about the primordial sea, but going into it here would require going over all the extant Remuria lore and the Narzissenkreuz lore, and this is already a longer post than I intended it to be. With the questions of “what” and “from what” more or less handled, in Part 2 I want to talk about the “why.” Specifically, why are Fontainians born with sin? What does the prophecy mean? What the hell were Rene and Jakob doing, and were they onto something? Part 2 will be…much longer than this. But I hope there was something interesting in this, or it led you to better ideas. Thank you for reading, and also any thoughts and suggestions are welcome <3