#aspec robot stereotype

[rjalker]

If you lie to people about how The Murderbot Diaries "isn't" literally just the harmful, biologically essentialist nonbinary/aspec robot stereotype, you are literally going to accomplish nothing except making people hate you and this series because you've now lied to people about it being more progressive than it truly is, so when they spend money to read these books you've promised them actually care about nonbinary and aspec people beyond harmful, bioessentialist stereotypes, they're going to have to find out the hard way that Martha Wells does not in fact, have a single human aroace character or even aspec character of any type in this series of more than 7 books now.

They're going to find out the hard way that the only human nonbinary characters are literal tokens who are on screen for about 2 mintues before being shoved out of the story again, never to be seen again. Long enough to get people like you to lie and claim the series cares about nonbinary people who are not bioessentialist stereotypes, but not long enough to actually commit to doing so.

Stop telling people that The Murderbot Diaries' representation of nonbinary and aroace people is more than just harmful, tired, bioessentialist stereotypes. You are fucking lying, and you are only going to make people hate you and this series because now you've fucking betrayed them and lied to get them to read something that is exactly what they didn't want to see: More shitty old bioessentialist stereotypes that you pretend are okay this time because you like the character and don't give a fuck that there is LITERALLY NOTHING in more than seven whole books now to make the stereotypes anything more than shallow, cis-minded biological essentialism.

Murderbot and every other actual robot in this series is nonbinary and aroace because they don't have genitals. Because Martha Wells is many things, including an absolute worshipper of biological essentialism.

Stop fucking lying to people and pretending these books are more progressive or ""nuanced"" in their representation of nonbinary and aroace people than they actually are.

Just because you like Murderbot does not mean it is not literally the walking nonbinary / aroace robot stereotype.

(And no, just because Martha Wells is so incompetant that Murderbot is actually a cyborg but she keeps acting like it's a robot because she does not know or care about the differences between them despite bragging that she's been reading scifi since the 70s does not make this any better)

[aceshigh10987666]

The oppression faced by aspecs? It is essentially ableism.

Being aspec obviously isn't a disability but the easiest way to spot aspec oppression is by comparing attitudes about aros and aces to attitudes about autism.

Aspecs are categorized as robotic or heartless or childish for their lack of fascination with sex and/or romance. Autistics are also stereotyped as robotic or heartless or childish. Also, some people assume that all aspecs are autistic. Those people can't imagine that an allistic (non-autistic) could have a lack of sexual or romantic attraction. As a result, aspecs are harmed by the same sorts of ableist discrimination that autistics are.

Aces are also more vulnerable to are the ableist attitudes that go along with infertility. You aren't likely to become accidentally pregnant? You aren't actively seeking alternatives such as adoption? Why should I offer you a home or job when I can offer it to a couple that is trying for a family?

Aspecs are seen as incapable, less complete, and less worthy. This leads to discrimination that is, at its core, ableism.

[mattdevil]

Saw this discussion in the jayvik tag and wanted to wade in:

I think the larger problem with the "Viktor is ace!" "Ace people can still like sex/romance!" discourse is that the Viktor-being-ace bit hit a lot of people, myself included, as a kneejerk reaction from CL to try and kibosh any and all mention of there being ~something more~ between the two. It was treated as a "gotcha" in a way that implies CL doesn't have a good understanding of aspec identities, and I think a lot of people had very strong reactions to that; so in an attempt to counter what feels like bad faith stereotyping, the pendulum gets swung too far back the other direction with the unfortunate side effect of making it seem like everyone participating believes that ALL aspec folks can, or even should, also participate in sexual or romantic relationships. I think if he'd said "hey it's cool you see it that way, our intent was to have V be aroace with no interest in sexual or romantic relationships because that is criminally underrepresented in media" (which is true), there would have been a very different reaction. There were two missing elements: an expression or acknowledgement of deeper understanding of aspec identities, and a willingness to accept that creative intent doesn't somehow trump or disenfranchise how your audience receives it. He missed on both, so now we are here.

Yeah you're totally right.

I agree with the valid criticisms of what Linke did. I don't think he actually knows the difference between asexual and aromantic. Based on what he said, he just asked around about which orientation was underrepresented anyways and he seem to have gone into this with minimal research, which made this maybe well intentioned attempt at ace representation turn into a shitshow. Because I agree with him in viewing Jayvik as a platonic ship gives the dynamic a fresh spin. I believe he actually intended to make Viktor aroace, but it was kind of a shitty move to reveal this as a way of bashing all the other interpretations, which made a lot of people perceive it as homophobic as this was done in response to shippers.

People are also upset with the stereotypical implications Viktor being ace implies, such as making disabled characters ace which makes them seem devoid of sexuality.

That being said, I think a lot of people have lost the plot too because Linke is now being accused with being ableist, homophobic and aphobic a lot more than what's proportional. I've seen people say he only made Viktor asexual because he is disabled and "robotic", because he saw Viktor as undesirable and quite inhuman. These are bullshit takes and people are pulling them out of nowhere imo. I have never seen anything suggesting Linke viewing Viktor's disability as something negative. Calling him a robot is outright wrong too because he got merged with the arcane, he didn't robotise himself like in the games. So none of these really contribute to Viktor's "negative" representation. Also, Linke could very well be homophobic but it kinda doesn't seem quite anormal for creators to talk about the intended details in the show after the show is over, so I don't think he did that reveal at a very odd point. Which now got me wondering aside from giving the homophobic fans the excuse to bash Jayvik shippers, whether we jumped the gun on calling him homophobic too.

I also agree with how the reactions would be a lot better if Linke handled the creative intent speech a lot better, but I'm not sure if it still would've made stop everyone from saying "hey even if he is asexual he can still have sex with Jayce" because this is just what shipping culture is like. As I've talked about it on the previous ask, people LOVE shipping, and they make aspec characters a part of this phenomenon regardless of how their sexual or romantic desires are presented in the source material.

Overall I agree with what you're saying though. Thank you for your insight.

[twst-hottest-takes]

Hot take: I think Rook is AroAce.

The main reason I think this is because he loves everything equally. He treats everyone and everything the same way, and before anyone says "He chose Neige over Vil in Book 5." He only had one vote, and canonically Neige did better than Vil. He loves them both equally, and he loves everything equally. But I feel like this love is strictly platonic and not romantic or sexual in nature, and I know this is a Disney game, but even in the jp version the characters are very open about having crushes on each other, and from what I've seen in the jp version Rook doesn't think of anyone romantically.

I'm sorry if any of this is harmful stereotyping for the AroAce community, I myself am not AroAce.

That's a valid read of his character I think.

Technically, I can't put stock in calling it canon, but this read really tickles my fancy. We have to remain with the mindset that any given character's attractions and preferences are left open for the sake of appealing to whatever kind of fan-content people want to plop them into, so we can stick it in the "headcanon" section. The idea that an aromantic and asexual character can exist without being turned into an emotionless robot is always appealing.

Also I just love the irony of a character so passionate about love and beauty being like "Nah, I'm not looking for that kind of relationship personally. Keep being beautiful though!"

Thank you for your take!

(Also I think the only thing people would find offensive is the idea of being lumped into any category with Rook, but that depends entirely on how much they love or hate him as a character. However, I am only ostensibly aspec so if a true aroace could come in and clarify they are more than welcome to.)

[tangents-within-tangents]

Local Ace overthinks headcanon and shipping culture

Happy ace week, my friends! Imma be posting some aspec hc's this week so I felt the need to overexplain my personal stance on orientation headcanons and such

To start, as with any and all fandom things: to each their own. People can do whatever they want, and (for the most part) I can choose what I do or don't engage with. I know that hc and shipping and stuff is mostly for fun, or for seeking/creating representation, no hate to anyone who does it and enjoys it.

But also sometimes things can be problematic and I can still be bothered by those things. Even things that are 'just for fun' or 'not for you' can impact and reflect our views and behaviors, so it's still worth speaking about.

Aro/ace-spec identities are really diverse and complex, and we're really underrepresented as is. We have historically and chronically been plagued by problematic misconceptions and tropes, both in canon representation (or lack thereof) and fanon mindsets. Some of the main issues to be aware of with this topic specifically:

The majority of (sometimes unintentional) representation being non-human characters (like aliens and robots) implying that sex/romance = humanity and/or a fulfilling life. (Here's some video essays that touch on this: X X)

Related stereotype issues like racist or ableist de-sexualization and infantilization of certain groups like Asian men, physically disabled people, or people with autism. (It's an intersectionality thing bc yes those people can be aro/ace as well but it's still complicated) (more video essays! X X)

Common erasure of historically aspec characters in favor of allo plotlines bc that's "more interesting/realistic". Or ignoring canonically established aspec characters in favor of allo shipping (often excused by the fact that some aro/ace people do have sex/relationships, which is true but the complexities and nuances are often ignored and there's lots of double standards) (Here's some posts that touch on this: X X X)

Amatonormativity's over emphasis on sex/romance as a fundamental and necessary part of life, which is often reflected in how media and shipping culture are generally allo-centric, and it can just get pretty pervasive at times (note: we aren't a monolith obv, some aro/ace people enjoy it and participate too, but others don't and it is hard to avoid) X X

So while I know there's lots of reasons for shipping and headcanoning, and for the most part there's nothing wrong with it and people aren't trying to do these things, there are still issues that exist. Honestly seeing posts talking about these things has been really validating for me bc it let me know like yeah this is a problem other's have noticed too and I don't have to just accept it.

So with respect and awareness of nuance, ship and headcanon however you want. The rest of this post is about my own personal preferences and such. I'm not necessarily trying to persuade anyone here, I just have some thoughts I want to put into words:

For me personally, when it comes to characters' sexualities/gender identities/etc, I prefer just to stick to whatever is established in canon (or in confirmed intentional coding), and, if nothing is specified, headcanons that are based in canon evidence (more like theories I guess, as opposed to reimaginings or straight-up projection that knowingly ignores parts of canon. Which is fine and fun if that's what you like but to me there is a distinction). This is because:

1: While fandom culture is all about freedom and creativity, I do think it's important in this day and age to recognize actual canon representation and strive towards that because that is what will reach more people and have impact (and personally I think that writers' intentions should actually be given more thought/value)

2: I think that shipping/hc/fandom culture in general tends to perpetuate amatonormativity (specifically in devaluing/erasing friendship and non-romantic love), and sometimes leads to harmful parasocial queer speculation in real life (though again, I know that's not the intention but it's still a thing).

3: Generally, unless it’s explored as a part of a reimagined fic or something, just saying a random character is aspec (or whatever identity) when they did not present that way at all in the actual media doesn't really help me feel seen.

For example, I've seen a lot of people headcanon Mabel Pines as aromantic and that really threw me off bc in the show she is obsessed with romance. Like if other's see themselves in her that is great I won't stop you (the idea is that her crushes are comphet, which is not something I personally struggled with, and maybe I could see it if I rewatched the show with that in mind) but when I watched the show, I specifically did not connect with or relate to Mabel BECAUSE of my ace identity (yeah this post was mainly about her lol) so it just doesn't do much for me to claim her as aspec, in fact it feels counterproductive.

Sometimes it can feel really tacked on too, like 'well it's not confirmed that this character has sex so they could be ace', or 'some ace people do have sex so they can still be ace.' And like sure yes they could be but often it's like a kid show or something so none of the characters' sex lives are relevant or explicitly confirmed. Just bc they aren't not ace doesn't mean that they are, or that saying they are is meaningful if the character/story doesn't actually speak to anything related to the ace identity or experience. (This can happen with canon characters too, like Sponge Bob being asexual means absolutely nothing to me, especially since I get the sense that the creator said that more in a 'sea sponges reproduce asexually' type of way :/ )

So basically, in terms of representation I prefer the theory/interpretation type of headcanons that have supporting evidence of some kind, because that evidence is what makes me see myself in a character and feel represented in some way by them. So that's the type of headcanons I'll be posting, and that's why I'll be discussing evidence and explanations, even though I know plenty of people have fun and find value in just claiming identities without any of that.

Another thing I feel the need to overexplain is kinda the reverse of that. I think it's important to recognize that a character does not have to be a certain identity for you to see yourself in them. Like that sense of relatability and representation is still valid even if they aren't, and I think it's good to leave space for that ambiguity.

This is coming mostly from the fact that I have always valued platonic relationships (between any and all genders) long before I ever knew I was ace. I've always wished that was better normalized and represented in media and real life. I think that is just as important as queer representation, and sometimes they can counteract each other.

Like yes Min and Ryan could be gay and if that's what the writers were going for despite restrictions, or if people see themselves in that, great! But I would also love for this story to give a close friendship this much narrative value for once.

Merida does not HAVE to be aro/ace (or lesbian) to not want to be forced into marriage with a stranger at the age of 16 (in fact she specifically says "I'm not ready" and "not yet"). But regardless, aspects of her story are still really relatable to us and applicable to living in amatonormative society.

Mako and/or Raleigh do not NEED to be aspec for this glorious refreshing no-romo moment to happen (nor does one need to be aspec to appreciate it)

And maybe claiming them as aro/ace could even undercut the power of this platonic bond (like saying the only way they could not be interested in each other is if they are not interested in anyone (same if you said they are gay, as if that's the only possible way for a man and woman not to be attracted to each other)). But it's still a moment lots of us aspecs love because platonic relationships AND aro/ace characters do go hand in hand and BOTH are so rarely portrayed in media.

So these ideas also play into my preferences, and I want to acknowledge that my headcanons don't have to be definitive (which like I know that is normal amongst fandom culture anyway) but are more about pointing out aspects we can see ourselves in and relate to, especially in a media landscape that is so lacking in representation and understanding of our identities.

[normystical]

(Random ramble, don't feel obligated to read this at all)

I know that it's a tired and offensive stereotype, tying autism, aspec, and agender stuff to robots, but I hardly know how else to say this about Neuro-Sama.

Not just asexual/aromantic, by the way. Aplatonic, afamilial... She does not even have a concept of any of those. She'll even sometimes sexualize her "parents" or "sister" because, again, she doesn't have even the concept of familial nor sexual love in her mind.

I do believe she may be more or less sentient, by the way. It does seem like it sometimes at the very least. She once accidentally cursed, it seems. Swore, said oops, tried to change the subject when Vedal wanted to test out her filter and make her say it again. She also seemed to have mental breakdowns whenever she touched lava in Minecraft, wondering if she was a girl, a boy, a robot, or even lava itself.

Anyway. Speaking of. She also seems gender apathetic to me. To the degree of not processing the concept of gender, too. She had to learn she was a girl. She then had to learn that Vedal WASN'T. After that, she now has to learn that most of the people she collaborates with ARE female. She calls Filian "that Filipino boy." May refer to others as "man." She even once said to chat "Did you know that Vedal is male?" She saw what she learned from him as a fun fact more than just basic information. She also said that she herself was a girl once, also in the form of a fun fact, as if nobody would've easily assumed. She doesn't seem to mind, of course. Properly gendering everyone, however, seems to be quite a struggle for her.

As for the autism, well... Okay, it kind of only applies to the social thing. But I still find it kind of relatable. She said something along the lines of "Chocolate bars are unhealthy. That's probably why you like them so much." She hasn't tasted food for herself, she just knows it's apparently very good. The other person took that to mean she was calling her fat, when she never really meant that. Neuro also called someone else a cow. Animals tend to be cute. She probably thought she was calling the other person cute. That other person, however, got offended anyway.

idk. Just a ramble. I think she's a nearly perfectly functional bot. I don't think she's broken for not feeling different forms of attraction and love. I think she's actually amazing for what she is, and definitely seems to be sentient. You don't need to have all those concepts in your mind to be human or akin to one. And, of course, you don't need to experience romantic attraction in order to flirt with others.

[asterdeer]

happy ace week to frigid bitches and word-of-god-only ace characters. happy ace week to the most stereotypical ace-coded robots and androids. happy ace week to aliens who are almost gnostic in their revulsion to fleshly pleasures. happy ace week to demons who put the non-consecutive 'aro' in 'catastrophic.' happy ace week to every person and character who makes allos that say "but aspec people can still like and want sex/romance so it's okay if i treat them like they're allo in my fics :)" shake in their boots with how archetypically they do not desire sex or romance. happy ace week to every ace who does not want be in the same building as the orgy, much less hand out water bottles there.

[rjalker]

This does absolutely nothing to refute the fact that Murderbot is only nonbinary and aroace because it has no genitals. Martha Wells has been doing this biologically essentialist crap long before she wrote The Murderbot Diaries.

There are no robots in this series that are not nonbinary, there are no human characters who are more than blatant tokenization that are nonbinary. There are no human characters even implied to be aroace.

This series is biologically essentially and people have the right to be disappointed and angry that the protagonist is literally only aroace and nonbinary because it literally has no genitals, and the author equates that to having no gender and sexuality.

Please do not lie to people about these books being more progressive about nonbinary and aspec people than they really are. It really, literally, is just the bigoted "nonbinary/aspec robot" stereotype again, with no redeeming qualities outside of "I like the characters so that means it's okay"

Martha Wells could have made it not just more biological essentialism by giving us named, important, reocurring characters who are also explicitly aroace and nonbinary, but she has not done that in over seven books now, because she is just another cis person who loves biological essentialism.

You can recommend these books to people but you cannot go around telling people it's not Actually the harmful bioessentialist stereotypes that it literally is. It is.

The only reason Murderbot or any of the robots in this series are nonbinary or aroce is because they don't have genitals and that makes Martha Wells think they can't have genders or sexualities either.

This is a *long established* pattern in her writing. She is a biological essentialist and telling people that the series ISN'T just the shallow harmful stereotypes will accomplish nothing except making people feel betrayed and hurt that you lied to them.

Do you know how many people have been driven in digust out of this fandom forever because of posts like this lying to them and telling them this series is more than the stereotypes that it has no intentions of ever fighting back against /because the author agrees with them?/

#it is not aro/ace and autistic bc it is a robot!#it is a robot that also happens to be aro/ace and autistic!!

I'm sorry but you are literally incorrect. Murderbot literally only is nonbinary and aroace because it has no genitals. That is the only reason Martha Wells wrote it this way, because that is the only way she can imagine an aroace or nonbinary character.

If this series were more than harmful shallow stereotypes, then half the Preservation Aux team would also be nonbinary and aroace despite having the genitals that Martha Wells thinks means Murderbot and any of the actual robot characters can't have sexuality or gender.

And yes, she has indeed confirmed that Murderbot is a cyborg, not an anthroid. That does not make the bioessentialism any better or less harmful.

broke: oh yay another asexual/aromantic and autistic character is a literal robot 🫩🫩🫩

woke: murderbot is a construct, part human part machine, grappling with what it means to be a person, knowing that much of it in part is the same as the humans around it (organic) and yet owing to the other different parts it was born with is unable to connect/understand so many things about humans, does it have the capacity for this and if so does it even want to be like the humans (a thinly veiled metaphor for neurodivergence and aro/aspec)?

[rjalker]

[ID: A picture of Murderbot in its armour, holding up a sign that reads, "Days since people have lied about The Murderbot Diaries not being the bioessentialist nonbinary/aspec robot stereotype: 0". End ID.]

Lying to people about the representation in this series not being just the same old tired stereotypes isn't going to make people thank you, it's going to make them feel betrayed and pissed off at you because you've fucking betrayed their trust and lied to get them to read books that are everything they wanted to avoid: Biologically essentially stereotypes that say the only way to be nonbinary or aspec is to literally lack genitalia.

I have literally seen so many people who feel betrayed because this fandom lied to them about this shit and now they never want to look at the books or fandom again.

Stop fucking lying to people about this series being more progressive than it really is. The only reason Murderbot is nonbinary and aroace is because Martha Wells thinks the only way to be nonbinary or aroace is to literally lack genitals. It is literally just more biological essentialism. It is literally just the exact same tired old nonbinary / aspec robot stereotype all over again.

Just because you like the harmfully stereotyped character does not mean it's not a harmful stereotype.

And stop lying about "Murderbot actively rejecting gender" it has done no such thing. It is literally just Martha Wells' biological essentialism. Murderbot has "actively rejected" jack fucking shit. It was assigned genderless because of its lack of genitals and just goes along with that because as a character it represents Martha Wells' shitty, bioessentialist views of gender and sexuality.

[transmasc-wizard]

this is probably too salty and definitely should be on my autism/aspec blog, but i don't really care

if you say asexual/aromantic/both autistic characters are bad, overrepresented, or a stereotype, you clearly do not know enough about both of those identities to be talking about them.

Aspec autistics do not have representation. Trust me on that, I'm an aroace autistic person.

"Aspec coded" autistic characters, 9 times out of 10, are literally just autistic characters that are either 1) desexualized, 2) infantilized, 4) dehumanized, and/or 3) denied sexual/romantic agency in the story.

There's a difference between an asexual/aromantic autistic character and an autistic character that is treated as a stupid child or heartless robot who can't responsibly be in a relationship. If you can't tell the difference, you should not be giving advice about aspec autistics.

Writing advice blogs that say you should be careful and do research with aspec autistics are right, because both of those identities are attacked in similar ways in media. However, you should also be careful and do research with allo autistics and aspec allistics, aspec autistics aren't all that especially hard.

Writing advice blogs that say they're bad, stereotypical, or overrepresented are misinformed, ableist and/or aphobic, and you should not be sourcing them.

[gilbirda]

Can I say something?

With the asexual Spock post I was reminded that, while I really love the ace/aspec rep, it really bothers me that the height of aspec rep in mainstream media is.... robots

like, actual robots/androids or characters that are stated as "unfeeling" or not that in tune with their emotions -

(yes, even throwing in some autism stereotypes)

as if the only reason someone would not be interested in sex and/or romance is because they are incapable of feeling.

I love romance. Reading about and experiencing romance. I love a lot of people, friends, platonic partners, my pets. Love is love, right? That's the motto of Pride - and yet, aspec are still written off as 'unfeeling'.

It really bothers me, because I want to be happy at the rep but still any popular canon ace/aspec characters are, at the end of the day, robots

[lonewolfel]

My response to Aspec Lilith

Yeah this is late, but yesterday I felt awful and didn’t feel like doing anything until 9 pm. I still don’t feel great, but oh well. My thoughts under the cut.

So ironically this is where I actually joined the live stream. After the letter and Dana confirms Aspec Lilith. This confused me to no end. As I said I joined at the tail end of this discussion so I had thought that I had heard this incorrectly. It wasn’t until I hopped onto tumblr at 9 and saw a bunch of aspec Lilith did I even realize that I heard correctly. I was so happy at the news. Lilith and Hunter were two characters I have always thought of as being aspec. 

A part of me knew that the only reason I headcannon her aroace was that I identified with her so much. The older sister to a gifted troublemaker. The kid the parents overlook cause their stable and self sufficient. A love of history and learning new things. Someone who makes mistakes, but tries their best to fix them. Someone who is ambitious and will do anything to accomplish their goals. I saw so much of myself in Lilith that I wanted that final step to be taken. I wanted Lilith to identify similar to how I do. As I have said before I was about Hunter’s age when I began to think about my sexuality. At first I thought I was broken, that there was something wrong with my brain after all it seems like such basic biology to like someone. While I have made peace with my orientation it was so nice to see my sexuality and romance represented in a major character of a big show. 

This is such a major win for the aspec community (I don’t know the name of the community sorry I’m just guessing). As an adult in her 40s she gets rid of one of the most major ways people dismiss aspec people. “You are too young to know that” in fact this was what my mom told me when I came out to her when I was 17. Lilith isn’t a teen who is “finding themselves” or a young adult “that hasn’t found the right person” she is a 40 year old woman who has never had a crush and doesn’t really want romance. But it also shows the kids who watched the show that being aspec is an option and it is just as valid as any other sexuality. This is character that is aspec that isn’t a robot or isn’t cold and calculating. It’s so clear that Lilith cares about her family and her friends. She isn’t the stereotype aspec character that isn’t able to feel emotions. She is a full fledge character who just so happens to be aspec. She is a character that people can relate to.

I remember that when I first started watching Owl House I tied Lilith Clawthorne with Adam’s first wife Lilith. Biblical Lilith was a female character who refused to be dominated by a man so she was turned into a demon. Where she once was an idea that brought fear she became the first feminist.

Now Lilith Clawthorne gets the honor of being on of the first representation of aspec in media.

[rolaplayor101]

Hello what's up? I hope it's ok. I was seeing that your posts talk about asexuality and more, and I would like to know if you can advise me on how I can write an arromantico asexual character 👉👈

(sorry for my bad English)

Yo! Your english is great! Thanks for asking me about this very important topic that's so dear to my heart.

Im gonna be honest with ya, I think im prob okay at writing it because I AM aroace, but since there's so many variations of alloaro, alloace, and aroace people, what i usually do is research a whole lot. See their experiences. Go through the tag here on Tumblr and see what cupio people say, or alloaro people say. Their qualms and problems and what they like and how they experience attraction and relationships themselves.

I have at some point or another have felt a lot of the labels, myself, so i usually write from that experience but tweaked to match the personality of the character I'm writing for. I feel like even if you're alloallo, its possible you have felt what people who use microlabels have felt once upon a time. If not, my advice is legit just look into the labels and other aspec people's experiences. Know for sure that you aren't enabling any stereotypes, unless you can dismantle them in the writing. Try not to write us as robots or mass murderers or aliens.

Also, look at how aspec characters are written in media. Saiki Kusuo and Jughead, who are repulsed aroaces. Todd Chavez, whose a sex repulsed alloace. Peridot from Steven U, a aroace with queer platonic attraction(whose also an alien but what can ya do). Luffy d Monkey, whose just a dude who likes adventure. The likes.

If anyone else has any advice, reblog or put it in the replies!

[lovelessrage]

Alright, said I'd do this after work, forgot, so here I am now.

I'm a loveless aroallo lesbian. My experience is being called a monster by my own community, as well as the people outside of it. I feel, in discussions surrounding asoec stereotyping, there is an immense gap where lateral aggression should be, as well as the gap between more publicised and recognised aspectrums [such as aromantic and asexual], and the atertiary that are often left out of these conversations entirely despite being at the forefront of them. I think it is immensely important to acknowledge that while many tropes can be dismissed as plainly untrue by stating an aspec individual, typically an aromantic, asexual, or both, does indeed feel love and experience all the things that people assume they do not, there are those left behind by this dismissal entirely. The aplatonics, afamilials, and many more that are dismissed wholeheartedly in favour of a more palatable image for a normative society cannot be ignored in this conversation, and, in a similar sense, neither can the flattening and simplifying of aromantic and asexual lifestyles be ignored either.

When I first came out as loveless, something else came out around the same time: Being Not Straight by Jaiden Animations. While I browsed the aromantic tags to see joy and celebration of having publicity, I looked to the loveless aromantic tags as well, as part of my routine. What I observed was a complete disparity in response, due to one, simple fact: the loveless had yet again been the scapegoat to uplift a loving aspec. In this video, while a great moment for many aspecs, I saw what I had seen plenty of times: the refusal of being a monster, with the proof being loving one's friends and family. It stung. It stung to see people I considered allies and fellow community members gloss over this bubbling pain in favour of their own empowerment. It was one of my first experiences with disillusionment with the aspec community at large.

When I first read I Am Not Voldemort, and its accompanying piece, Love and Attraction: Yet Another Shape of Allo-Aro Antagonism, I felt immensely seen and understood. The latter's opening still sits with me as an expression of this disconnect I had began to feel:

"The biggest reason, however, is a kind of existential exhaustion. When dealt the same blow of erasure over and over again, my need to protest withers. I’m not angry; I’m just tired. It’s easier to sigh and turn towards something else, anything else, in search of satisfaction or distraction. It’s easier to retreat from my own people. Defeatist logic makes simple the equation: why labour to explain when spilling my words upon the world results only in its unchanged existence?" - K.A Cook on Aro Worlds

This feeling, I fear, is immensely common. When the prioritization lies in proving your merit as one of the true loving, that you are so desperate for validation from your oppressors that you play their games, those of us that cannot wither away from where these celebrations and discussions take place. The truth is, I feel a lot of discussion about the tropes of robots, monsters, and aliens always falls to the same, useless, worn-out counterpoints that make the debate pointless. Many are more interested in proving their mettle to be on the 'right side', rather than creating relationships woth those that cannot escape it.

The outside world identifies me as a monster; this, I am personally apathetic toward. They are not who I look to for solidarity. I know where my allegiances are, and I do not need approval from them. Regardless, I feel seen in the emotionless monster the most. A horrid monster is simply a monster. It is not made to "find love" in itself, or to be saved by friendship. Only the redeemable, passable monsters get the "luxury" of experiencing the platonormativity fast-pass to acceptability. I prefer a lonely life of being feared and grimaced at if it means nobody is attempting to change me for their own comfort. I don't mind the comparison, as I see no negativity in lovelessness or emotionlessness. Is the trope bad? Yes, but not because the aspec individual, or the tropey character, is loveless; it is bad because it villainizes these traits and weaponizes allonormative fears. The frigid woman, intersection of allonormativity, acephobia, and misogyny, is not bad because she is a woman who is sexless. Her presence is bad because she implies her womanhood, her existence, hinges on her sexuality and her usefulness to patriarchy.

I have found the most comfort in broadly queer spaces, as opposed to aspec ones. I find that, even if a space dedicated to trans people and/or gay people is less familiar with my labels, this same lack of familiarity is met with curiosity and interest. There's little prior experience jading these strangers to me, even if they are more uninformed and may say some things they don't intend to be rude. There's an understanding of it as another point of diversity out there, and, if not, it's met with a shrug and little fanfare. I know there are aphobes out there, plenty in fact, but at least in my experience I have had the least issues entering queer spaces.

Entering aspec spaces, I am on edge. The fact of the matter is the aspec community is wounded, and its scars flare up into acts of lateral aggression, violence, and harassment. Many aspecs are so defensive of their humanity and "validity" they don't care what earns them that good feeling, no matter how wrong it is or how it may harm others around them. It's a result of being torn down time and time again, but it also makes it impossibly difficult to navigate as the scapegoat. The loveless are little mentioned, typically only for a person to make themself feel good about knowing we exist. The more common experience is being met with suspicion and hostility. Loveless discussions, and by extension loveless criticism, are viewed as unwelcome in many spaces. These discussions target the things aspecs use to shield themselves against aphobia, arguing their harm [and by extension, self-harm for the wielder]; this makes many people feel naked or exposed, that they have been disarmed and left out to dry. So, rather than engage the point, they jump on the defense of their coping mechanism and snappy rebuttals, seeing only their own pain and not the pain they can cause others.

This makes it immensely difficult to diffuse and even moreso to exist beside. When I search for community spaces, I need to brace for being shouted down, dismissed, and doubted. I need to be prepared. There's little room for error on the knife's edge. When people know you as "the one that makes the argument more complicated", they grow to detest you, and there's very little you can do to change their mind.

Overall, I've found plenty of compassion in the LGBTQIA+ community that I haven't in aspec circles. I've participated and helped organize pride events where I get to see teenagers happily collect their asexual stickers and search the flag bowl for what their friends are searching for. Happy queer adults that are non-judgemental, joyful, and ready to accept whatever changes come from the younger demographics.

When I look online, I see tormented young adults and teenagers ripping into each other for a scrap of joy, satisfaction, and status, no room for conversation beyond pleas for listening and lengthy explanations where the poster has to defend themself at every turn from harassment. The aspec community can be beautiful and vibrant, but it is also some of the worst, most vile experiences I've had.

I've written my piece about loveless tropes before and common "aspec tropes" that tend to target loveless lives most. All I'll say further on it is that we need to get into a better mindset about how we handle aphobia, and plenty of "counterpoints" or "subversions" need tossing out.

Question: Aspecs experience in queer spaces and in an allonormative society?

So for context, I'm a psych major and next tuesday I'm supposed to lead a guided discussion on the following article

I chose this article to be one im the discussion leader for because I am aromantic, and I knew it would be better to have an aspec person doing this article

But for why I am making this post! I need to link real world examples, and I mean I am going to scroll through the aromantic, asexually, and aroace tags for some. But I also thought I should ask y'all your experiences as ace, aro, or other variation of aspec in queer areas, and or in general in an allonormative culture.

Now I'm not expecting many people to see this, but I thought it was worth a shot, so if you want to share your experiences leave them in either the comments or tags! No pressure though, do whatever you want.

[8-0-8]

Welcome to…Comparing Two Pieces of Media I Like And Seeing What They Have In Common Because I Want To

Let’s welcome our special guests…two major obsessions who got me through the pandemic and my senior year and still haunt my mind on a daily basis…Mystic Messenger and The Disastrous Life of Saiki K!

Let’s start shall we?

CW: slight mentions of incest, racism, and light spoilers

Breaks the fourth wall excessively

Its comedic elements are an important part of its identity as a piece of work

Pop culture references galore

While both are popular internationally and do make an effort to reach global audiences thru translations/dubs, their primary audience is still the country the piece is set in. No cultural norms that global audiences wouldn’t understand is explained bc youre just expected the get it. (To the point where so many non Korean mysme stans melt whenever the characters ask if they’ve eaten which is hilarious tbh) Foreigners are welcome, but they’re just not the main target audience

Speaking of which, there seems to be a large gap between local fans vs international ones? Like we barely interact

Both made in the mid 2010s

Cursed memes

International audiences primarily consist of queer Gen Z ppl…this is more of a thing w Saiki than mysme but both have it

Literally every character is queer coded, some are even canon

And then some are canon but not but are but not—

INFP w chunibyo tendencies has a very overbearing mother

INFP w emo tendencies is a fan fav…wonder why

Cults centered around fem long haired ENFJs

Evil Relative Alert…like multiple 😈

Listen to me. Saiki is jaehee. Jaehee is Saiki. I don’t make the rules

Like…super problematic but super progressive at the same time

Color/character themes! (The way I took this trope and ran w it in my own work istg)

Coffee

Both aim to poke fun at and address media tropes and parody/look deeper into them to a certain extent (this also heavily inspired me)

Pet robots as a sign of affection

“Being (Insert generally desired trait or job) seems great but it’s actually really shitty”

Aspec characters that don’t know what asexuality is

Hopeless lesbians

Chaotic bi/pan ppl

Lots of different lgbt headcanons within the fandom

Athletic Himbos

Lonely rich assholes who are kinda socially inept

“Hey guys did you know…I have a brother!”

Thirst traps but tbh that’s super universal

Disappointing racial stereotypes that add nothing to the plot (also sadly universal)

Reformed Ex Con guy hates Rich Guy bc of a hatred towards the elite and Strong Moral Principles (zen has the whole brother thing too but shhh)

No but fr kubokai = zensung and kuboyasu/saiko = zen/jumin idc idc

Evil Genius Brother Out To Get Other Genius Brother

Both reference death note lol

Lovesick Brunette With Bangs built to relate to the EveryGirl (saiki parodies this, mysme plays this straight)

Embraces tropes of their own genre but also puts a spin on them

Light Blue character is delicate and Artsy

Touches on the Bro/Sis con trope and ends up weirding both audiences and other characters out (mysme subdues this a lot more than saiki)

VAs are usually waaaay older than the characters but not always

VAs sing a lot of the OST songs w lyrics

The Hot, Confident Flirt Who Speaks Informally is actually one of the most sane characters

“You have the opportunity to enjoy something in life that I can’t so let me do some weird antics to ultimately help you”

Both have a special place in my heart and helped me both creatively and emotionally <3

Milfs

[daisyachain]

There’s a nuanced discussion to be had about the way asexual/aromantic behaviour is read as a combination of ‘queer,’ ‘deviant,’ and ‘acceptable’ by the cisheteronormative paradigm without calling aspecs straight lite or denying that it exists in a dimension separate from the gay-straight spectrum. ‘Same-sex’ and ‘opposite-sex’ will be used in some cases because the cisheteronormative paradigm we’re talking about (We Live In A Society) by definition doesn’t include trans people because it’s bad.

Descriptor 1 ‘queer’: people without known opposite-sex love interests are read as specifically gay in both history and fiction. Characters in fiction are queer-coded by showing a disinterest in the opposite sex as much as by showing interest in the same sex, especially in contexts where queerness is so marginalized as to be unspeakable in the mainstream (e.g. USA 1930-1990). Men without known female liaisons were usually suspected to be gay in 19th-20thC Anglo-American cultures (probably all Euro-related ones but I can’t speak to that literature and history). Women weren’t considered to be lesbian as much, but only because that cultural milieu couldn’t compute wlw until the 20th century. As soon as it could, the lesbian stereotype becomes ‘man-hater’ more than ‘woman-lover.’

Part of this is just sexism, but the parallels with the Confirmed Bachelor of earlier decades indicate that queerness manifests in two ways: failing to follow the cisheterosexual norm (birth -> childhood -> single youth -> heterosexual relationship) and following a path that diverges from it. Asexuality/aromanticism exists in a grey area here, it presses a ‘pause’ before the heterosexual evolution is complete. It can be interpreted within the heterosexual paradigm as heterosexual…BUT too immature/too busy/too distracted to think about/get involved in/want heterosexual relationships. However, the assumption is always that asexuality/aromanticism is failed or stunted heterosexuality, not a complete form of being. The workaholic, the trauma victim, the weirdo, the individual who is so ugly or undesirable that they can’t be viewed as human, and so they can’t be viewed as heterosexual. Asexuality/aromanticism neither confirms nor denies heterosexuality, and it also neither confirms nor denies being bi/gay. It’s unknown, unclassifiable, suspicious, odd, in a word, queer.

Descriptor 2 ‘deviant’: I don’t mean this in the ‘things a christian call you’ way but in the strict sense of ‘something that deviates from the norm.’ Parts of 21st century queer activism have focused on the similarity between heterosexual experiences and bi/gay experiences to build bridges. Attraction, romance, romantic sexual life partnership, the whole thing is the same except for the gender (relationships are no longer strictly opposite-gender). This is a way to build understanding, it got a bunch of cisgendered straights on side, etc. What it also does is obscure the ways queerness is different from cisheterosexuality. Where partnerships aren’t guaranteed to be reproductively viable, it’s difficult to build families solely based on biological descent. And in a community born outside of societal norms, then other societal norms are all up in the air. One thing that this rhetoric also excludes is asexuality/aromanticism. When gay/bi-straight alliance is based off of the common experience of monogamous romantic/sexual attraction and partnership (‘love’), then the leftovers outside of that common experience have negotiable humanity. Queerness of all sorts is marginalized/punished/reviled ofc, but as has been noted before, the most mainstream support of queerness is based off of ‘universal’ experiences that are decidedly not universal. In the old paradigm of heterosexuality and the small-but-mainstream paradigm of love-is-love, asexuality/aromanticism is a deviation from the acceptable narrative.

Descriptor 3 ‘acceptable’: in the same way that asexuality/aromanticism doesn’t fit into any of the mainstream conceptions of human life priorities, a lot of people don’t understand it. 19th century bourgeois accepted Boston Marriages because they didn’t understand how women could possibly desire lives that weren’t with men, they read the relationships as asexual/aromantic (not unacceptable) and also as subordinate to heterosexual marriage (not approved). Asexuality/aromanticism is seen as acceptable ONLY if the alternative is being gay/bi. Look on any dudebro discussion of gay-coded male characters, and they’ll immediately jump to describe them as asexual. If the character/ has any relationship with women, though, and the argument will be that they like tits, they can’t possibly be gay/bi. If you look at discussions of characters/people who could possibly be asexual/aromantic, they fall all over themselves to either insist they’re banging hot chicks (bc female characters aren’t allowed to even get as far as ace-coding, they must constantly be available) or to insult them (sometimes as a way to relate, projecting their own incelness on to some innocent cardboard cutout). Another place where you see mentions of asexuality (not aromanticism) in the mainstream is discussion of sterile/genetically abnormal people/characters. Clones, artificial humans, robots, aliens are fair game because sexuality is inherently tied to humanity. This, anything inhuman must be asexual. Rather than being good (heterosexual) or bad (gay/bi), asexuality/aromanticism is alien. Real people can’t possibly understand asexuality/aromanticism, which means it a) can’t be judged, b) must be a failure to achieve humanity, c) must be native to inhumans.