#done with this discourse now

[wailing-walls-in-the-attic]

I'm probably batting at a bee hive for saying this, but I'm pretty sure fans will not get an apology nor will watcher back track.

Personally, I think they already thought about this, anticipated the hate and loss of subs and decided it would be alright.

And lastly, they prob calculated it and concluded that the amount of fans subbing to their streaming tv outweighs the amount they'll lose from YouTube.

Just saying, there is a possibility that they calculated and saw that they could pull this off with paid subscription on their new streaming site. It's a gamble for them, which they took up. So, I'm pretty sure they think that this is worth it.

Besides, we're not hearing much from the people already subbed because there's too much hate atm for them to joyfully announce that they have an account.

[zhelin-thames]

Danny Brings the Justice League to the Ghost Zone

Clockwork: “Why did you bring them here, Daniel?”

Danny: “I didn’t bring them. They followed me through a portal like lost ducks.”

John Constantine: “In my defense, I thought you were being possessed again.”

Danny: “I was LITERALLY holding a Dunkin’ bag and floating. That’s just me. That’s Tuesday.”

Batman: “This place violates every law of physics and at least four zoning bylaws.”

Fright Knight (materializing from the floor): “You violate my patience.”

Wonder Woman: “This realm... it’s alive.”

Danny: “Yeah, her name is Realmia. She likes boba and cosmic storms.”

Realmia (the actual Realms, vaguely embodied): blows a ghostly kiss and short-circuits three Bat-gadgets

Flash: “Can we talk about how the sky just blinked at me?”

Superman: “The sky has teeth.”

Danny (casually): “Yeah, don’t worry, they only bite time travelers.”

[The sky above them yawns open like a black hole with glittery teeth.]

Flash (Barry Allen): “...Wait.”

Danny: “Yeah?”

Flash:“I am a time traveler.”

Danny: “OH. That explains why the clouds keep growling at you.”

The Clouds: growl louder

Clockwork, sipping tea with visible amusement: “They’re merely curious. You're like a chew toy made of paradoxes.”

Flash (panicking): “I CAN FIX THIS. I CAN FIX—”

Danny: “No, Barry, this is not a ‘run really fast and mess up the timeline’ moment.”

Flash: “EVERY moment is that moment!”

Batman: “Allen, do not run. You will trigger a Realm storm.”

Flash: “What’s a Realm storm?”

The sky above them screams. Loudly. In Morse code.

Danny: “...Oh. That means ‘hi’ and ‘bite.’ It’s kinda both.”

Clockwork, sipping tea with a thousand-yard stare: “It’s been a long week.”

[nyancrimew]

I'm so fucking sorry but that post sucked, there's nothing we can "learn" from authcoms that haven't proven to be disasters in history, if you want to create an apparatus that exists over the people, they're oppressed. If you think otherwise then you're not an anarchist, simple as that. This isn't just "Ideology spewing" our beliefs actually have material differences that FUCKING MATTER! if you wanna collaborate with them, even if its for "discussion" then you're already doing some leftist-unity psypop.

You're not an anarchist, you're a fucking liberal.

nothing you say in this rant is an argument against anything i said in that post or any of my other posts lol. also calling me a liberal is a cheap shot and such an american one at that. if you were a real hater and leftism understander you'd at least call me a socdem or some shit.

yes there are material differences that matter but the main point of my post was that im actually fucking doing praxis and doing work instead of spending all day arguing with people i already know i disagree with.

[aropride]

me personally if i was making fun of asexuals or aromantics or polyamorous people or pansexuals and i noticed my notes were full of terfs who thought it was the funniest thing ever i would probably reflect on that

[punkitt-is-here]

Look, Ms. Punkitt. You seem like a nice person and all, but how you handled that original post was awful. You had a bad take, fine! That happens, and I won't hold that against you. But then other trans women show up to inform you of their experience, and why your take was bad, and you act like they've insulted you. You effectively plug your ears and say "This doesn't happen to me, so obviously it never happens", and then go right into insulting them. It's an assholish thing to do, to say the least. Like I said, you seem(ed) cool, so maybe you'll be able to get past this, but it was a bad showing from you.

My take of "I think certain specific people in my community having a bizarre hatred of masculinity is harmful" is bad?

[xoalsox]

the sky background in the poet | artist mv is an actual 8mx18m painting made specially to match the mood of the song (x)

[chronicsyd]

I’m sorry but the statement I think I Hate the Most is “I miss S1 Caitlyn!” “I miss silly Caitlyn!” “What happened to S1 Caitlyn?”

Cuz it’s like I’m sitting here like:

OH

GEE

I

WONDER

WHAT

HAPPENED

And not Only will there be Jinx glazers who deem there was Nothing Wrong with this, but they’ll deem that Caitlyn Deserved it. And Look, I Get that Jinx’s your fav and all, but Nothing about what Jinx did to Caitlyn here was Remotely ok.

“But she didn’t know her mom was there!”

And that doesn’t excuse the Entirety of the tea party scene.

“But Jinx has abandonment issues!” Yea so do I, not Quite on the same level as Jinx does but I’m not about to go Kidnapping and Threatening the person I thought was “responsible” cuz that’s just Fucked Up (also highly illegal)

And No, I’m Not “letting my Caitlyn bias get in the way” of having a discussion with this because I at the very least have the mental capacity to say “it’s not okay that ____ did that”

And it’s to the point where I’m seeing videos like “How it feels to be an Arcane fan with media literacy in 2025” and I open the comments to see that the OP is a Notorious Jinx glazer that treats Caitlyn like the devil like babes if your a glazer for Anyone in this show I’m gonna say that you probably lack media literacy all together because that wasn’t the Point of the Character 🤦‍♀️

“But you’re a Caitlyn defender”

Exactly. I’m Not a Caitlyn glazer because I’m spending most of my time Defending Caitlyn from Jinx glazers because there’s a difference between the “defenders” and the “glazers” of the Arcane fandom. And I don’t sit here saying “oh Caitlyn was in the right for x, y and z” when she’s clearly Not.

And Most of the time when we’re having a discussion about Caitlyn not only will fans Completely Ignore characters like Ambessa and Salo; they’ll deem you “racist” if you bring up the fact that Ambessa’s the one that’s the dictator/manipulator as if that wasn’t the whole reason she came to Piltover in the First Place. (While Also making “jokes” that compare Caitlyn to two of the most Heinous moments in history. “But Caitlyn stans were racist towards Reed when he made the jokes!” Yea and that was wrong as well! Two things can be wrong at the same time people! It’s not rocket science)

Yea sorry for the rant it’s just that I see the “what happened to Caitlyn?” On So Many TikTok posts that I’m getting mad about it

[pseudophan]

i was about to be like 'thank you dan for making that as a gay man comment before saying you got distracted by sophia's tits so i don't have to read another round of think pieces about how um actually he's bisexual' but then i thought about it for too long and now i'm wondering if that was purposeful because he saw the discourse about this on twitter recently and then i made myself mad

[luckthebard]

The best comparison I could make would be if in C4 they magically had Caleb randomly show up and decide “actually you know what I will time travel” and with no rolls Matt decides he saves his parents no problem and they’re alive and immediately forgive him and nothing bad happens to him ever again because it never did.

[shadow-redferne]

Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things

(PT: Proship vs Anti Discourse is Why We Can't Have Nice Things) (Trigger warning: This post discusses multiple sensitive topics, including abuse, bullying, bigotry and suicide. Reader discretion *heavily* advised)

I've finally gotten around to this post and I'll admit I can already smell the hostility. Just some disclaimers: This post isn't me commenting on the morality of certain media or ships, nor is it me commenting on whether or not fiction affects reality. This is only to talk about the damage this kind of discourse has done to fandom. I am going to warn you: This is *not* a post full of kindness. I am not going to be nice. This post is going to be a bit mean. No. Very mean. Sorry about that. So, TL;DR: Both sides have a harassment problem, and neither side wants to address the issues their communities have, leading to fandom becoming an unsafe environment. So uh, I don't think I need to write a witty introduction here. The current state of fandom is rancid. Harassment has become a giant fucking problem lately. So what's the problem? The problem lies in one thing: 'Proship' vs 'Antiship' discourse.

"Shadow, what the fuck do those words mean?" Proship used to mean that you supported all ships, all forms of fiction, and that you were against harassing anyone who was involved in fandom, as well as against censorship. 'Anti', or 'antiship', meant that you were against some forms of fiction and shipping, mainly ones involving minors or incest. Now you might've noticed that I used the phrase "used to" and the word "meant". That's because both terms kinda got new definitions and became buzzwords, with proship turning into a synonym for 'problematic shipper' (the term 'darkship' eventually came around to distinguish the two apart from my understanding, but uh...as you can see it hasn't helped much!). On top of that, people use the word 'proship' as a verb or type of content rather than an actual stance (ie. 'proshipping', 'proship content', 'proship artstyle', you get the idea). However that's not the main point here. Let's cut to the chase now; both sides fucking hate each other; we'll make that clear, with both sides throwing vile accusations towards one another. However, the more I looked into the swamp, the more distrust I gained for both sides. Something was bothering me, but what? I tried to do a survey; two of them in fact, to see which side was more hostile. Unfortunately, neither survey gave me a lot of useful results, considering I got very little responses from the anti side (So uh, thanks for nothing on that end guys. /nm). The written responses did give one common theme: Fandom has a problem. A problem with harassment, bullying, creeps and bigotry. The antis are particularly horrible when it comes to this. I'm going to start this off by saying that I actually used to consider myself an 'anti' due to my discomfort with noncon and incest. And unfortunately, I was pretty fucking hostile to others (although I never sent death threats, fuck anyone who does that shit). I eventually stopped associating with the 'anti' side when I saw how rampant the ableism was- more on that later. 'Antis' have caused severe harm to fandom, and I don't really understand how anyone can deny that. However, I am pretty fucking tired of everyone pretending that the 'proship' side is the good side. I know the 'proship' side isn't going to like hearing this, but it needs to be said: You guys are *just* as guilty as 'antis' when it comes to being toxic. And I'm not saying that because of the pro-incest stuff or the minor/adult pairings. I'm saying that many 'proshippers' are way too comfortable with being creepy towards others, and the community that claims to be 'anti-harassment'... isn't all that anti-harassment! Here are just some of the written responses I got from the survey:

Here's one alibi from an anonymous user who submitted to the @selfship-confession-box account (pls let me know if you dont want to be tagged)

Another anon that was submitted to the @proship-anti-discussion account

Lastly, here's some of the replies and reblogs to a post talking about an 'ex-proshipper' that left the community due to negative experiences (the OP of said post and the 'ex proshipper' in question did eventually apologize to each other, so I'll cut both of them some slack. I'm only showing the responses because holy fuck are they rancid).

So yeah. So much for the 'proship' community being "anti-harassment" and inclusive to SA and grooming survivors. Now, to the 'anti' side. I will say, the 'proshippers' got one thing right, and that's the fact that 'antis' very much fucking suck. And remember when I said that 'proshippers' were hypocrites? Well, 'antis' are also that. They talk so much about protecting "sa survivors" and how "proshippers are bigoted". But what do the written responses say about this?

and let's not forget *this*

I also want to bring up this comment about the term 'proship artstyle' that I thought was worth mentioning:

In other words... 'antis' aren't as great to hang around either! Now, there's one particular issue I really want to zero in on, and that's the rampant ableism from both sides. As one of the above written responses say, there is a huge problem of 'antis' and 'proshippers' misusing words like 'psychotic' and 'delusional'. The r-slur is also pretty rampant, I've noticed.

Still don't believe me? Okay. Here's a more recent example from an anonymous 'anti' I came across (ironically enough this came up when I searched "proship ableism". Also. fatphobia too? pick a struggle anon)

And that's not even getting into the amount of 'antis' who weaponize the saying "seek help" or "go to therapy". Now, let's go back to the terms supposed original meanings, particuarly the meaning for 'proshipper'. That term was supposed to mean that you were against censorship and harassing people for fiction and ships, and that you didn't judge people for liking certain ships. Meanwhile, 'antis' were supposedly about wanting to get rid of problematic media that could be harmful to minors and SA survivors. But it's time to be honest: Both sides have lost the plot. How am I supposed to believe either side is "anti-harassment" when neither side knows how to respect boundaries? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about SA survivors when you have both sides constantly speaking over said survivors and also harassing them? How am I supposed to believe either side cares about minors when there's been individuals on both sides, yes, including the so called "antis" that "care so much about protecting children uwu", that were outed as groomers? How am I supposed to believe either side is the good side when you have things like this happening:

The last thing I take issue with? The terms "proship" and "anti" as a whole, as well as every single similar term that's come out of this mess. While I do genuinely believe these terms were probably helpful in the past, it's clear that they're not doing any good whatsoever. Both terms have had their original meanings muddied and twisted to the point where they basically have no meaning at all, and the terms existing have created a massive "us vs them" mentality within fandom. There's also the issue of both sides forcing labels on others. I've seen posts that are all "if you believe x, congrats you're a proshipper!" or "if you believe y, you're an anti!". As well as anyone identifying as 'neutralship' (a label I also used to identify with before I stopped associating with these labels entirely) being called a "closet proshipper" or an "anti in disguise". Personally? If you have to force people to pick a side in order for you to trust them, I don't see why I should trust you. If you have to rely on labels like "proship", "anti", "anti-anti", "anti-harassment", "anti-censorship" to come across as a safe person or a good person, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to see you as a good person. You might be wondering why I included the "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" labels in that. Well, I'm going to be honest, and you are welcome to disagree with me on this, but I feel like these terms are so fucking unnecessary. Being "anti-harassment" and "anti-censorship" is the BARE FUCKING MINIMUM, a bare minimum that neither side can truly follow. Also, calling yourself "anti-harassment" doesn't automatically make me believe that. Especially when it's been proven time and time again that 'proshippers', the side believed to be 'anti-harassment', isn't all that 'anti-harassment' at all! Now I know what you're thinking at this point; you're thinking that I condone harassment because I'm going after both sides. You're thinking that I don't give a damn about the death threats that 'antis' have sent. No. No. No. That is not what I'm saying. And honestly, if *that's* the message you're getting, I don't know what to tell you.

So no, I'm not saying harassment is good or okay (and if that's the message you got from reading the above... I genuinely do not know what to tell you). I'm saying that you don't deserve a medal or a cookie for not sending death threats or being against people who send death threats, when it's literally the BARE MINIMUM. The bar is in fucking hell at this point. And as it's been shown, neither "proshippers" nor "antis" are truly anti-harassment. Me not liking 'proshippers' doesn't automatically mean I'm okay with sending them death threats, and me not liking 'antis' doesn't make me okay with abuse. And it sure as fucking hell doesn't mean that I don't care either. Because guess what? I do fucking care. It's why I'm fucking making this post in the first place. I shouldn't have to identify as "proship" or "anti" or any other labels to tell you that I care. Me refusing to use a label doesn't mean I'm apathetic to all the harm that's happened. And I sure as hell am not condoning harassment by refusing to hold hands with individuals who can't even bother to respect each other's boundaries. And honestly? If you interpret "I don't support proshippers *or* antis because they both made fandom toxic and unsafe" as "I condone sending death threats and rape threats", that's kind of on you. Here's a simple message I have for anyone who calls themselves "proship" or "antiship", and I am going to be especially mean here: Stop pretending to brand yourselves as the good guys when all you've done is break boundaries, talk over abuse survivors and marginalized groups. Stop being hypocrites, and actually address the issues within your goddamn communities. And stop downplaying said issues by saying "BUT THIS SIDE IS WORSE!" or "BUT THEY DO IT TOO!". Also, stop forcing people to use your dumb labels. Literally all of this could be fucking solved with using the block buttons or report buttons. There is no reason for this stupid fucking infighting. You don't have to like each other, fuck no, but quit dragging those who aren't involved into your messes and ruining fandom for everyone.

To "antis": Quit pretending to care about SA survivors and minors when you're the ones sending them death threats (And maybe address the fucking groomers within your community too, by the fucking way). To "proshippers": Stop being a dick to people who have had negative experiences with your community, stop ignoring the bigotry and stop letting in predators within your community. Now lastly, I know I said I wasn't going to comment on stances, but I do want to say this because it's also very much fucking bothering me. I hate how this discourse just boils down to either "Fiction DOESN'T affect reality at all, it's 100% okay to support ANY kind of media/ship/pairing no matter how problematic it is, and if you disagree with that you're a fascist!" or "Actually supporting ANY kind of media that's problematic and/or depicts so and so is BAD and if you support that you're a horrible human being! And if you disagree with me you're just as bad!" Have you guys perhaps, I don't know: Considered a fucking middle ground? Have you maybe considered nuanced discussions? How about that? Okay, I'm done being mean. In fact, I actually don't have much else to say so here's a video that talks about it a little more nicer than I do

*Sigh* I'm going to regret posting this, aren't I?

[queerofthedagger]

the thing is that if comments/kudos/engagement are "payment" for authors' "free" work, aka if fandom is transactional, then readers are in fact "paying" for something. and if readers are "paying" for something then fic is a product, and if you are "paying" for a "product" you are in fact - generally speaking - entitled to make some basic demands regarding said "product." what that looks like is gonna be different from reader to reader but we have spent years upon years arguing, rightly so, that people are not entitled to updates, or completed fics, or to offer unsolicited criticism, or fics going the way they want them to, or that authors shouldn't have the right to delete their stuff, etc etc. etc. and that entire argument crumbles the moment you turn this into a transaction and it's just no wonder (if no less goddamn obnoxious) that readers' entitlement is skyrocketing when they are treated like fucking customers. like. turning this into an us vs them seller vs customer thing is, aside from entirely ignorant of the fact that writers most often are readers themselves, the most horrific thing happening to fandom. stop turning this into a fucking free market under the guise of community. i swear to fucking god

[aropride]

the current "is smoking around people rude" discourse is really annoying on both sides as we've all gathered but like as a certified Weed Enjoyer i think what's getting missed (/intentionally glossed over?) is that some people have disabilities and allergies and lung problems etc that make being around smoke dangerous for them, and the least u can do is move away from people a little bit to smoke. like, there are disabled people everywhere & you have no way of knowing if someone around u has a condition that could be triggered by u smoking. and i don't think it should be the disabled person's responsibility to leave any situation where people might be smoking because i think disabled people deserve to be in public without having to worry about other people making that unsafe for them. but the past 5 years of the Ongoing pandemic have taught me that people either consciously or subconsciously do not care if disabled people are shoved out of the public if it makes things slightly more convenient for them. and like yeah people are being a little dramatic with assumptions that standing near a smoker will give u cancer or get u high but. if you want to smoke in public maybe step to the fucking side, i dunno. like sorry to be the Bitter Joyless Annoying disabled person but it's so fucking easy to walk a few yards away to smoke instead. and while i'm on my soapbox wear a damn mask the pandemic's worse now than it was in 2020 and soon You might end up being the Bitter Joyless disabled person with a lung condition

[louferrignojrofficial]

this just a thing i’ve noticed, in the 911 fandom especially. but it has become more acceptable and common for hate to be the way that people interact with each other. like making posts hating on a ship, a person, actor, whatever, and then getting interactions and attention from that. instead of being spreading happiness over things they enjoy. and idk… i just think that’s sad.

[nqueso-lies]

Yeahhhh but like...

You really thought you ATE 😭����

[pseudophan]

dnp mention in the new willne video. im being haunted fr

was about to be like ok fork found in kitchen he and james mention dnp all the damn time, but this was funny nvm

edit: i'm also gonna need phannies to follow james' lead here when it comes to how to respond to questions about dan and phil's relationship. literally just say yes

[essektheylyss]

I do find the uptick in folks who got upset that some of us felt like there wasn't enough follow-through on narrative consequences suddenly turning around wanting the Hells to be hunted by Vasselheim very funny, because I'm just like... so what I'm hearing is that you want your faves to be on the run from religious leaders because the choices they made had such massive ramifications and so aggressively spurned that religion it demanded exile if not outright execution, because it makes for a more interesting story with more interesting characters.

I understand the canary in the role mine now: you're jealous of me. You want what the Essek stans have.