blue-chimera - Tumblr blog

[blue-chimera]

guy who has never lived with anyone other than his dad and his brother, who he's been cohabiting steadily with for almost 7 years: haha check it out, this loser still lives with his mom

[blue-chimera]

writing dean winchester is like. he’s hideously selfish. he’s the most selfless person in the world. he’s pathetic. he’s strong. he’s completely clueless about his feelings. he feels everything too much. he hates himself. he’s the cockiest son of a bitch you’ll ever meet. he ignores his fear. his fear consumes him. he’s protective. he wants someone to protect him. he’s controlling and possessive. he’s soft-hearted and kind. he wants to bear the weight of the world because it’s the only thing that makes him feel useful. he doesn’t want to feel responsible for everyone and everything. he loves the hunting life. he just wants to be normal. he loves his brother. he hates his brother. he loves his father. he hates his father. he loves his mother. he hates his mother.

and writing sam winchester is like. he’s never fit in anywhere. he just wants to belong. he wants to get away from his family. he doesn’t want to let his family down. he’s full of anger. he’s the gentlest man in the world. he’s never had the ability to choose. he’ll do anything to preserve other people’s ability to choose. he’s a good hunter. he wants to be anything else but a hunter. he’s defiant. he’s complacent. he’s ashamed of the things he’s done. he’s proud of himself for who he is. he doesn’t ever want to kill. he’ll kill anything that threatens someone he loves. he feels suffocated by his brother’s love. his brother’s love is the only true thing he’s ever known. he hates his father. he loves his father.

everything about these characters is a contradiction. how can you not want to eat them alive, absorb them into your blood, and then spend the rest of your life trying to write them into a world where every single one of these things is true at the same time??? i’m absolutely. insane

[blue-chimera]

Pulling out the tags on this one, because they're also excellent:

This was absolutely wrong of Dean, with a capital W, and Sam isn't at all overreacting when he finds out. He's absolutely justified in being pissed. Although, I personally wouldn't even go so far as to call Sam "semi" suicidal at the end of S8... maybe "nearly suicidal." But I think we need to draw a line somewhere and, while he was horribly depressed, I think (as OP says) there's a big difference between being willing to die in battle for a cause you believe in — one that's expected to save enormous numbers of lives — & deliberately pursuing death.

I'd add: it's true that Dean doesn't "force" Sam to abort his mission at the end of S8, but he does pressure him. And he frames his primary argument in terms of the greater good, which I think Sam feels deceived by in the wake of Dean's actions in the hospital. Like, he bought it in the context of not closing the gates of Hell, but when you add "letting an angel who's a complete stranger take control of Sam's body (which happens to be a powerful vessel) without his knowledge & run amuck" onto the scale, it seems more & more clear that Dean isn't motivated by what's best for the world so much as he's motivated by terror of losing Sam (at least, at this point in time).

SAM: Look at him. Look at him! Look how close we are! Other people will die if I don't finish this!

DEAN: Think about it. Think about what we know, huh? Pulling souls from hell, curing demons, hell, ganking a Hellhound! We have enough knowledge on our side to turn the tide here. But I can't do it without you.

This is why Sam brings up the church. And it does muddy the waters, because we can see that Dean was right to intervene there, but Sam doesn't feel like he can trust that anymore. So he's bitter that Dean stopped him from dying a death that would've been meaningful & saved tons of lives. Because, in the context of Dean's later actions, it all just seems like a lie.

The other thing I'd like to add is that, in all fairness to Dean, he's under an insane amount of pressure when making the initial call — not only because Sam is dying & would be skeptical of "angelic 'help' by way of possession" in the best of circumstances, but also because he feels guilty over driving Sam into (what he perceives as) being suicidal, or nearly so. Like, he only managed to just talk Sam off the ledge, and now this? Even setting aside the fact that Dean would find some way to feel responsible however Sam died, I think he would feel triply responsible under these circumstances.

And what Gadreel shows him in Sam's head only cements that, because he doesn't get to see the whole "journey to acceptance of his death as part of the natural order/peace when you're done" bit that the audience does. All he sees is Sam trying to seal the deal with Death.

Not to mention that Gadreel is manipulating him for his own purposes! Like, someone who wasn't trying to manipulate Dean would've responded to his fearful/despairing statement of "Sam will never say yes" with something like, "All you can do is ask him. Why not try?" instead of, "Sure he will, if we trick him."

So, yeah. I think Dean handled the situation at the end of S8 correctly, but handled the situation at the beginning of S9 very poorly, so it's really problematic to conflate the two. And he absolutely should've tried harder to tell Sam what he'd done afterwards. But of course Gadreel didn't make that easy — blocking & dissuading him repeatedly. He would've had to escalate the situation pretty massively (the way he eventually did when he finally realized he was deceived) just to have that conversation. And, if he pissed off the angel healing his brother just for the sake of clueing Sam in, for all he knew, the angel would leave & Sam would still die, even if he would've agreed to continue.

So he made the wrong choice. But he did it because he was in a really tough spot. And there's no guarantee that, under the same pressures, any of us would've handled it better.

like it is--one of thee wildest parts to me is that sam wasn't... I mean no okay he was suicidal. but he wasn't like wed to the concept of his own immediate death. he was probably clinically depressed and he was extremely willing and ready to die in order to prevent future harm to others, but his expressed wish wasn't just To Die as an end in itself and he literally out loud twice agrees that no okay he'll live then. (I think this is muddied later by the way dean and sam both talk about these moments like dean forced sam to live, but genuinely onscreen he didn't. he asked and sam said okay. dean's requests have an outsize impact on sam but dean didn't actually prevent sam, in the moments he was just verbally asking, from dying. right up until he does force sam into something.)

so i mean. what happens onscreen isn't 'dean prevents sam from committing suicide and that's a problem.' it's 'dean prevents sam from dying in the line of duty, which is fine, and then when sam almost dies anyway dean reviews sam's dnr form which says "okay you can bring me back except not if you have to do it with this one drug. i've tried that family of drugs before and it causes me physical and mental anguish so severe it's not a circumstance I, a rational adult person, am willing to live in. so in THAT case I'd rather not be rescuscitated." and dean, who very specifically can talk to sam because that is how he accomplishes this entire thing, tells the man in a lab coat he found in an alley "ok i'm going to distract him and you pump his veins full of this stuff. we're not going to ask him whether he feels differently now or is willing to try it this one time. he just told me he wants to live so maybe he would budge but we're not consulting him on this. I WILL be holding him down." and then they both kept doing that for months despite the fact that they could at any point have asked sam "hey, you seem loads better, do you think you'd be down to try this lifesaving drug now or is that still a hard no?" and that is. in fact. a problem.'

[blue-chimera]

Oh, man. There's reading-too-much-into-it Sam fans and reading-too-much-into-it Dean fans both going at it in these tags. (Not to mention people who aren't taking a side but are still reading too much into this!)

1. Bitter Sam girls (if it's okay for me to call you that?): We have no reason to think that Dean is controlling Sam's food choices here.

2. Bitter Dean girls (as a Dean girl, I'm much less worried about offending y'all, lol): We have no reason to think that Sam is "acting helpless" here, or as though he can't cook his own food.

To elaborate on #1: We've seen Sam and Dean eat together for 15+ years (including flashbacks) and we've never seen Dean deny Sam his choice of food. This is Not A Thing in their dynamic.

So, logically, this is something Sam has asked Dean to grab on one of his grocery runs but doesn't actually care that much about, so he hasn't bothered to push it when Dean's acted mock-offended by the very notion. He's brought it up from time to time when it's popped into his head — like, veggie bacon is a thing he tried at a restaurant once & would like to have again — but it's mostly just become a running joke between them. Which is a thing siblings do.

(And for all we know, maybe Dean did look for it once & they didn't have it, so he just didn't even admit to Sam that he would've bought it if he could've. Because it's funnier to act outraged instead.)

To elaborate on #2: We've seen Sam take the initiative on all sorts of things in their lives. And he's spent plenty of time living on his own & didn't starve. So yeah, Sam can cook for himself/arrange his own meals. The fact that he isn't doing so in this case is simply evidence that this is something he doesn't care that much about.

It seems like the boys divide chores between them: Dean prefers cooking, so he claims the kitchen; Sam does the laundry. Dean has a mechanical bent, so he does most of the gun cleaning & car maintenance. Sam is more interested in organizing & cataloguing, so he digitizes the MoL library, maintains their records, etc. And maybe they trade off on some things (e.g., ironing) that neither of them particularly likes.

That being the case, it makes sense that the one who generally doesn't cook would ask for things from the one who generally does. It's not a sign of something nefarious.

Lastly, the nonpartisan-but-still-reading-too-much-into-it peeps: As folks probably recall, Sam ends up taking a bite & it's revealed that this is not, in fact, veggie bacon. It's real bacon. Sam spits it out, only mildly exasperated at the deception. Based on his reaction, it seems highly unlikely that Sam is taking a moral stand against meat. Once again, the most logical assumption is the one that draws from what we've previously seen: he's just watching his cholesterol, trying to eat healthy, etc.

So, yeah. To those asking if Sam is vegetarian at this point in his life... he is not. (Or if he is, it's strictly a dietary thing: he's not Super Serious about it.)

15x04 - Atomic Monsters

[blue-chimera]

Dean Winchester in SUPERNATURAL 7.07 'The Mentalists'

[blue-chimera]

You gotta be the change you want to see in the world, @ani-coolgirl! You write it, we'll read it...

So, fandom, where are all the Dean as a ballet dancer fics? Because I'm just saying, those cursed ballet slippers reached out to: A) a ballet dancer, B) a little girl who loves ballet, and C) every man's man Dean Winchester. Sure he TOLD Sam he wanted to be a firefighter when he was little, but what's the truth really??

[blue-chimera]

Dean is disturbed and disgusted by Gordon's sadism in season 2. Even before he's convinced of Lenore's innocence, he draws a distinction between simply killing the vampires & casually causing them pain.

Later, he's even more disgusted by the sadistic streak that Hell cultivates in him. (Keep in mind that the souls he tortured there were probably primarily "bad people," as they were in Hell, after all. Dean clearly doesn't see that as a justification or excuse for taking pleasure in their pain.)

We do see Dean driven back into the arms of sadism on occasion — not just inflicting pain, but taking pleasure in it — but, before the Mark, those tend to be limited to the most extreme circumstances. For example, when Castiel asks him to torture Alastair, who had tortured Dean for decades and knew him inside & out and therefore, was able to provoke him masterfully (which I go into more detail about here). However, Dean typically displays shame in the wake of such incidents. Only under the Mark's influence do we see Dean defend taking pleasure in causing pain.

[blue-chimera]

Not to mention the paintings changing after the reveal!

actually. can we talk about the green room/the beautiful room for a sec bc unironically it was one of the best settings in the show. the rococo furniture and paintings with hidden angels in them. the way the bright lighting at the start of the episode contrasts with the usual grey and fades as dean begins to realize that the angels have been plotting to free lucifer and start the apocalypse all along

[blue-chimera]

In reference to posts like: https://www.tumblr.com/avengersnewb/748068078058913792/spn-then-and-now-podcast

Members-Only Snippet of Ben Edlund Interview on Supernatural Then and Now

Rob: We got this question we’ve been avoiding because it’s a lot of words, but... when Castiel's talking to Dean in the truck about being human, the line that was aired is a different line than the script reads.

Ben Edlund: Sure.

Rob: So, the line that's aired is, Castiel says, “Except I used to belong to a much better club and now I’m powerless, I’m hapless, I’m hopeless. I mean, why the hell not bury myself in women and in decadence, right? It’s the end, baby, that’s what decadence is for. Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out? But then, that’s just how I roll.” But the script reads, “But instead we become this. The only thing, I think, we have left, Dean and me, is each other. If Dean says it’s time to go out in a blaze of glory, win or lose, so be it. I’m in... but then, that’s just how I roll.” It’s an interesting little difference.

Rich: Well, somebody had to rewrite that, right?

Ben Edlund: Sure, I mean, like, that was either a rewrite based on a note, or something that— it’s possible that there was a shift in language that came from a pass through Kripke. To me, that feels like a rewrite based on, “Okay, we know what the subtext is, bury it a little bit.” Right?

Rob: Gotcha.

Ben Edlund: Because, you know, it’s more interesting to know that and then have language kind of be less to the core. I mean, maybe not, sometimes you really want to go to that core. But it didn’t seem necessary in that moment because look at the larger context. It's: this guy is still hanging around. He’s going on the mission. And previously, in the prior scene, when he’s kind of — when we used the word "insouciant" for the first and last time in Supernatural’s history, I believe... unless it gets quoted later in 15 seasons & I missed that — at that point, he is totally ride or die with Dean. He’s basically, “You say we're going on a suicide mission and there’s no hope or whatever,” and Dean’s going, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” and he goes, “Okay, well, let me go get the truck.” And so, in a sense, it was like — I would’ve done the same thing today, if that makes sense. Looking at the whole. 

Rich: Right.

Rob: I like the idea of burying it more, not serving it on a platter there. Letting people — 

Ben Edlund: Mainly because all the other aspects of that story tell us that. Show us that, actually. That’s the whole thing. Show us, not tell us... (quips) I heard that at some kind of seminar.

— Supernatural Then and Now podcast BONUS CLIP: Ben Edlund Talks

[blue-chimera]

This just came back across my dash and I was like, "OMG, remember when famous artist @spntrunk name-dropped me on one of her most awesome pieces of art? Here it is!" <3

Thanks for making me famous by proxy, @spntrunk!

for @blue-chimera , for making me cackle/calling me out here

just a simple dean study from that gifset + playing a bit with a palette inspired by Anders Zorn (concretely this one, if you're curious, though you won't find many similarities)

My art tag ⸜(｡˃ ᵕ ˂ )⸝♡

Ask me a question/say hi/make a request... ( •̯́ ^ •̯̀)

[blue-chimera]

supernatural + faceless

2x02 "Everybody Loves a Clown"

[blue-chimera]

Wanted to elaborate on something I only touched on briefly in this post…

I'm 100% "ship and let ship," but I personally adored that, in a culture where romantic/sexual love is often treated like the only important kind (especially for heterosexual men), Supernatural wasn’t afraid to show men experiencing deep feelings of a non-romantic/nonsexual nature.

We saw it with Sam & Dean. We saw it with the boys & Bobby. And we saw it (for most of the show’s runtime) with Dean & Cas.

The way the U.S. holds romantic/sexual love up above all other kinds of love is massively damaging to both women & men. Men because it's part of the broader message to men that feelings & friendship aren't for them. That "real" men don't hug, don't cry, don't love their friends, don't feel strongly enough these kinds of relationships to worry about each other. Don't confide in each other or share quiet, intimate moments. Don't do all these absolutely basic things that everyone needs to do with someone. All of which makes it nearly impossible for straight men to have their emotional needs met outside of a romantic relationship with a woman.

And it hurts women because it puts a staggering burden on women when they have to be the sole provider of their male partner’s emotional needs. (See: Men Have No Friends and Women Bear the Burden) This is why even women married to "feminist" men frequently still end up being something like mothers to their partners: because most men (even men who've consciously rejected all of the toxic masculinity they've seen when it comes to women) have internalized not reaching out to other men for the "soft" stuff. So they need everything from their wives.

Anyway, that's why whenever I see people insist that Dean "had" to have romantic feelings for Cas — based just on the strength of the love he displayed towards him — it just kind of breaks my heart.

[blue-chimera]

Secondly, though (as Edlund is trying to say here, himself), this scene was rewritten for straightforward reasons, reasons that have nothing to do with the characters: it’s because the original dialogue wasn’t good. It was clunky & obvious. That’s why he says, “I would’ve done the same thing today.” He would’ve rewritten it similarly if he had the choice today because the revised dialogue is just miles better. He jokingly alludes to the fact that “Show Not Tell” is elementary-school-level basic writing advice, and that’s exactly it.

The old dialogue basically says (on the surface), “I recognize that I’ve massively fallen from grace... FYI, if you can’t tell, I’m still following Current-Dean because I care about him and I don’t really have anything or anyone else, and neither does he. Also (in case you missed it in the previous scene), I’m aware that our odds of survival on this mission are terrible but I don’t really have another good option, so… I guess this is what I’m doing!”

And it doesn’t have subtext – it’s single-layer. The surface is all it is.

The new dialogue, on the other hand, says (on the surface), “I’m totally useless now, so I’m gonna have fun with my last few breaths! Cuz what else can I do?” And underneath that, it speaks of Cas’s knowledge of just how far he’s fallen & of his overwhelming sense of despair. And, with the context from the surrounding scenes, we understand that he has no one else, nothing else, just Dean, and he knows this is probably a suicide mission, but what else can he do? He has no illusions. No purpose. All he has left is a single friend and maybe a little joy he can squeeze from a handful of earthly things and then it’s all over. And Dean’s lost Sam. So all he has is Cas and his mission. So, yeah… that’s all that’s left: Distracting yourself from the horror of the end as you careen madly towards it.

Anyway, I just felt the need to say that. Ben Edlund is awesome & his writing rocks, but even pros have the occasional clunker! That’s why you don’t just write: you write and re-write. And the final line here knocks it out of the park. So, really, that's the whole of the take-away: Edlund rewrote it & the cool thing is getting to see part of the writing process. Seeing the rough bits & how they become polished.

Members-Only Snippet of Ben Edlund Interview on Supernatural Then and Now

Rob: We got this question we’ve been avoiding because it’s a lot of words, but... when Castiel's talking to Dean in the truck about being human, the line that was aired is a different line than the script reads.

Ben Edlund: Sure.

Rob: So, the line that's aired is, Castiel says, “Except I used to belong to a much better club and now I’m powerless, I’m hapless, I’m hopeless. I mean, why the hell not bury myself in women and in decadence, right? It’s the end, baby, that’s what decadence is for. Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out? But then, that’s just how I roll.” But the script reads, “But instead we become this. The only thing, I think, we have left, Dean and me, is each other. If Dean says it’s time to go out in a blaze of glory, win or lose, so be it. I’m in... but then, that’s just how I roll.” It’s an interesting little difference.

Rich: Well, somebody had to rewrite that, right?

Ben Edlund: Sure, I mean, like, that was either a rewrite based on a note, or something that— it’s possible that there was a shift in language that came from a pass through Kripke. To me, that feels like a rewrite based on, “Okay, we know what the subtext is, bury it a little bit.” Right?

Rob: Gotcha.

Ben Edlund: Because, you know, it’s more interesting to know that and then have language kind of be less to the core. I mean, maybe not, sometimes you really want to go to that core. But it didn’t seem necessary in that moment because look at the larger context. It's: this guy is still hanging around. He’s going on the mission. And previously, in the prior scene, when he’s kind of — when we used the word "insouciant" for the first and last time in Supernatural’s history, I believe... unless it gets quoted later in 15 seasons & I missed that — at that point, he is totally ride or die with Dean. He’s basically, “You say we're going on a suicide mission and there’s no hope or whatever,” and Dean’s going, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” and he goes, “Okay, well, let me go get the truck.” And so, in a sense, it was like — I would’ve done the same thing today, if that makes sense. Looking at the whole. 

Rich: Right.

Rob: I like the idea of burying it more, not serving it on a platter there. Letting people — 

Ben Edlund: Mainly because all the other aspects of that story tell us that. Show us that, actually. That’s the whole thing. Show us, not tell us... (quips) I heard that at some kind of seminar.

— Supernatural Then and Now podcast BONUS CLIP: Ben Edlund Talks

[blue-chimera]

I wouldn’t normally share members-only content, but (like I said in the tags on the original) I saw folks posting & talking about this snippet elsewhere on Tumblr, so it’s already out there, and I wanted to address a couple takes where it felt like people maybe didn’t understand what Edlund was saying.

First: If you like shipping Dean & Cas, that’s cool. I’m not trying to harsh your mellow! I assume you understand that nothing in this deleted scene suggests a mutual sexual or romantic relationship between the two of them, but if you choose to take it that way… have fun! Shipping is all about having fun imagining characters a certain way.

But, second: This is definitely not an example of “network executives preventing the writers from being explicit about Dean & Cas having a mutual sexual or romantic relationship.” Firstly, because, well, see above: while the “cut” dialogue is explicit about Cas having strong feelings for Dean, it’s 100% possible to have strong feelings about your friends and family. “Strong feelings” don’t have to be sexual or romantic feelings.

Members-Only Snippet of Ben Edlund Interview on Supernatural Then and Now

Rob: We got this question we’ve been avoiding because it’s a lot of words, but... when Castiel's talking to Dean in the truck about being human, the line that was aired is a different line than the script reads.

Ben Edlund: Sure.

Rob: So, the line that's aired is, Castiel says, “Except I used to belong to a much better club and now I’m powerless, I’m hapless, I’m hopeless. I mean, why the hell not bury myself in women and in decadence, right? It’s the end, baby, that’s what decadence is for. Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out? But then, that’s just how I roll.” But the script reads, “But instead we become this. The only thing, I think, we have left, Dean and me, is each other. If Dean says it’s time to go out in a blaze of glory, win or lose, so be it. I’m in... but then, that’s just how I roll.” It’s an interesting little difference.

Rich: Well, somebody had to rewrite that, right?

Ben Edlund: Sure, I mean, like, that was either a rewrite based on a note, or something that— it’s possible that there was a shift in language that came from a pass through Kripke. To me, that feels like a rewrite based on, “Okay, we know what the subtext is, bury it a little bit.” Right?

Rob: Gotcha.

Ben Edlund: Because, you know, it’s more interesting to know that and then have language kind of be less to the core. I mean, maybe not, sometimes you really want to go to that core. But it didn’t seem necessary in that moment because look at the larger context. It's: this guy is still hanging around. He’s going on the mission. And previously, in the prior scene, when he’s kind of — when we used the word "insouciant" for the first and last time in Supernatural’s history, I believe... unless it gets quoted later in 15 seasons & I missed that — at that point, he is totally ride or die with Dean. He’s basically, “You say we're going on a suicide mission and there’s no hope or whatever,” and Dean’s going, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” and he goes, “Okay, well, let me go get the truck.” And so, in a sense, it was like — I would’ve done the same thing today, if that makes sense. Looking at the whole. 

Rich: Right.

Rob: I like the idea of burying it more, not serving it on a platter there. Letting people — 

Ben Edlund: Mainly because all the other aspects of that story tell us that. Show us that, actually. That’s the whole thing. Show us, not tell us... (quips) I heard that at some kind of seminar.

— Supernatural Then and Now podcast BONUS CLIP: Ben Edlund Talks

[blue-chimera]

Members-Only Snippet of Ben Edlund Interview on Supernatural Then and Now

Rob: We got this question we’ve been avoiding because it’s a lot of words, but... when Castiel's talking to Dean in the truck about being human, the line that was aired is a different line than the script reads.

Ben Edlund: Sure.

Rob: So, the line that's aired is, Castiel says, “Except I used to belong to a much better club and now I’m powerless, I’m hapless, I’m hopeless. I mean, why the hell not bury myself in women and in decadence, right? It’s the end, baby, that’s what decadence is for. Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out? But then, that’s just how I roll.” But the script reads, “But instead we become this. The only thing, I think, we have left, Dean and me, is each other. If Dean says it’s time to go out in a blaze of glory, win or lose, so be it. I’m in... but then, that’s just how I roll.” It’s an interesting little difference.

Rich: Well, somebody had to rewrite that, right?

Ben Edlund: Sure, I mean, like, that was either a rewrite based on a note, or something that— it’s possible that there was a shift in language that came from a pass through Kripke. To me, that feels like a rewrite based on, “Okay, we know what the subtext is, bury it a little bit.” Right?

Rob: Gotcha.

Ben Edlund: Because, you know, it’s more interesting to know that and then have language kind of be less to the core. I mean, maybe not, sometimes you really want to go to that core. But it didn’t seem necessary in that moment because look at the larger context. It's: this guy is still hanging around. He’s going on the mission. And previously, in the prior scene, when he’s kind of — when we used the word "insouciant" for the first and last time in Supernatural’s history, I believe... unless it gets quoted later in 15 seasons & I missed that — at that point, he is totally ride or die with Dean. He’s basically, “You say we're going on a suicide mission and there’s no hope or whatever,” and Dean’s going, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” and he goes, “Okay, well, let me go get the truck.” And so, in a sense, it was like — I would’ve done the same thing today, if that makes sense. Looking at the whole. 

Rich: Right.

Rob: I like the idea of burying it more, not serving it on a platter there. Letting people — 

Ben Edlund: Mainly because all the other aspects of that story tell us that. Show us that, actually. That’s the whole thing. Show us, not tell us... (quips) I heard that at some kind of seminar.

— Supernatural Then and Now podcast BONUS CLIP: Ben Edlund Talks

[blue-chimera]

I'm a lot more careful about engaging in heated discussions online than I used to be (more protective of my mental/emotional energy), but I've always loved a good debate. §

§ By a good debate, I mean one where evidence is appreciated & the other person's actually open to changing their mind. Bonus points if they successfully challenge assumptions of mine that lead me to better understand my own take on the issue. (Max points if they actually cause me to change my mind — which has happened!)

But one thing I've noticed is that people often seem to expect communication across ideological lines to be, well, easier than it is — and, as a result, are more likely to deem someone on the other side of any given debate a "troll" or "not acting in good faith" than I think is really true. I see it in discussions I'm not involved in (where I can sometimes actually spot where a particular misunderstanding happened that caused one party to jump to this conclusion). Sometimes, I've even had that accusation thrown at me.

This is just my opinion, obviously. It's impossible to know for sure what proportion of people are arguing in good faith. And, even if someone is arguing in good faith (they're being honest & not trying to play games), that doesn't mean it's worth your time or energy to talk to them.

That's a call everyone has to make for themselves. I personally try to avoid engaging with folks who don't seem open to changing their minds, or who seem to have a scornful attitude towards others. I also avoid engaging with anyone who seems like they might have a hard time grasping more-complex arguments, or whose arguments seem rooted in such an extremely different perspective from mine, as far as what's possible/probable, that I'm not sure even where to start.

Sometimes, even if someone would otherwise make a wonderful debate partner, you have to just agree to disagree: sometimes, the answer boils down to "I value X and you don't value it, so you're never going to want to protect Y, because valuing X is ultimately what motivates anyone to protect Y. So although we agree that A & B are (or very well might be) negatively impacting Y, you value Z that A & B generate & you don't care about Y (because you don't care about X in general), so of course you're gonna want to keep doing A & B."

If X is something you can argue that the other person should value based on other things they care about (they just don't understand the impact of X on people/societies, for example), you can sometimes take that angle, but otherwise, there's just nowhere for the argument to go. If they don't care, they don't care.

[blue-chimera]

Favorite Sam & Dean moments per episode: 3x6 “Red Sky at Morning”

You are… you’ll get over it. But I want you to know I’m sorry, I’m sorry for… putting you through all this, I am.