#(technically pigeons are feral — not wild)

[pigeonclaw]

First a mountain lion, now raccoons. Who keeps bringing these North American animals into Britain to terrorize the local feral cats. Very rude.

[blackat-t7t]

What is a favorite fact that you like but feel like you never have a chance to share? More than one favorite is also totally acceptable.

A favorite fact? 🤔

I can't remember if this is for an ask meme, is it supposed to be a fact about me, a fact about my fic, or just a general fact?

Why is my brain drawing a blank right now?

The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.

Ok, so a general fact: the way you see carrier pigeons or messenger hawks portrayed sometimes, like the mail service or Harry Potter style owls, isn't actually how it works.

A messenger bird is like an express train line- it can only go to one place, no stops, no detours.

See, each bird has its home roost, where it gets fed, where is sleeps (say, a castle). People leaving the castle for somplace else (say, an army camp) could take a caged bird with them, and, when they needed to, release it with a message, and the bird would return home to the castle. But, it wouldn't be able to carry a return message. You would need a different bird, that considered the army camp home but had been taken to the castle, in order to send a reply.

(An extra fact: pigeons are a domesticated species. All the ones you see in cities are technically stray/feral, not wild. Humans just turned them loose when we got more reliable methods of communication, and they've managed to muddle along without owners, like feral cat colonies.)

[rebeccathenaturalist]

Is feeding pigeons bad? I don't feed them from my hand, I just leave out food and they eat it all up. Other animals don't get to the food because I place it on my window and the pigeons heavily populate my street and finish it in minutes.

In a post you mentioned that having animals gather close to one another can cause easier spread of diseases.

I am just wondering if that also applies to pigeons considering that they are domestic and if there are more ethical ways I can feed them or if I just shouldn't at all.

@uselessfish - Good question! So, this is sort of a weird situation. Pigeons are technically a domestic version of the rock dove (Columba livia), sort of how the house cat is the domesticated version of the African wildcat (Felis lybica), so this isn't like feeding native wildlife. Nor is the pigeon strictly an invasive species since they are synanthropes that mostly (though not exclusively) stick to human-dominated areas. While there is likely some risk of pigeons spreading diseases to other birds simply through proximity, they aren't like European starlings (Sturnus vulgaris) or house sparrows (Passer domesticus) that actively compete with native North American birds for nest sites and other resources. Most of the complaints about pigeons have to do with the fact that their feces ends up all over public places because, well, that's where a lot of them live. They can occasionally cause crop damage in rural areas and in those cases I can understand control methods being brought into case, but urban pigeons don't really seem to be hurting much of anyone. Plus they are a nice reminder that nature persists in spite of our urbanization.

To be honest I feel bad for pigeons because we domesticated them and then when we no longer needed them we basically abandoned them. People will spend scads of money feeding feral outdoor cats that, even when neutered or spayed, decimate native wildlife for the remainder of their lifespans. But pigeons? Pigeons get kicked, chased away, treated like the scum of the earth, even by people who claim to love animals. They're more than just "rats with wings", and I think they deserve a P.R. boost.

Also, in recent years native species of falcon, hawk and other raptors in urban areas have been using feral pigeons as a steady food source. In Portland, for example, there are several active nests of peregrine falcons (Falco peregrinus) in the city limits. Would it be better if they were in wild habitats eating native prey? Sure. But the city isn't going away anytime soon, and the pigeons provide food for these once-imperiled predatory birds that are taking up the niche that's offered to them.

So personally? I see no issues with you putting some food out for the pigeons on your windowsill. Just sterilize the surface they eat on on a regular basis so that you aren't promoting disease transmission, and keep an eye out for more potentially troublesome critters below the window if the food gets knocked off on a regular basis. Also, I don't have personal experience caring for pigeons, but I would recommend doing some research as to what a proper diet for a pigeon would be. There are still folks who keep them as pets so I'm sure you can find plenty of information on what's best for their nutrition and digestive systems.

[pinkisopod]

any 5 pigeon facts/anecdotes/hot takes

i can’t really rank these so i’ll just tell you five pigeon related things

1. we should like stop breeding unethical pigeons for show. parlor rollers (i think. i may have mixed up the breed) r bred so that they are forced into a small seizure when they open their wings so that they do a small flip. that’s so fucked up

2. pigeons love cities so much bc they evolved to live off cliff faces and thus adapted well to the tall faces of buildings. i think it’s a similar case for falcons but i’m unsure

3. the cutest pigeon ever is the chinese owl champion i love that baby. it’s so soft i want to hold it 🥺

4. pigeons were the first domesticated bird. and i’m ninety percent sure they were just the first domesticated animal ever? for that reason there technically aren’t wild pigeons only feral ones

5. i think the narrative of pigeons being prized only to be scorned by society once outgrown is firstly only partially true since pigeons as a food source and pigeon related sports r still active today but also kinda lame anyway imo. i actually kinda feel like pigeons got it good on the whole. idk. they’re really thriving in cities y’know. public image of them could be improved but i don’t think we need to like mass redomesticate them

[purpleturtle9000]

future leo and casey jr are so important to me

"Casey," Leonardo says slowly. "Did you bring home a wild animal?"

"Nooo."

"Technically, urban pigeons are feral," Donnie contributes.

Leonardo shoots him a warning look. "Your future health hinges on your lack of contribution to this conversation."

Donnie seems to get the point, since he shrugs and turns his attention back to his phone.

"Can I keep them?" Casey pleads.

Leonardo realises, not for the first time, that he can't say no to his son.

"If you can prove you can take care of it," he says eventually.

"Yes!"

[biggest-gaudiest-patronuses]

you know how city pigeons are an invasive species that were originally imported as fancy domesticated pets? but then they were released into the wild and started breeding and are now technically feral?

[powdermelonkeg]

Two Flure questions:

Why a 14 number base? Do the kindling/elves have 7 fingers on each hand?

Are there reptiles/ectotherms? If so, where do they get their heat from? Are Kindlings surrounded by swarms of lizards trying to heat up?

1. This is a two-parter; there's an in-world reason and a personal reason.

The personal reason is because that's how many digits I could make out of the x-and-dots symbols without copy-pasting the alphabet.

The in-world reason is because they count on more than just their fingers. Five fingers on each hand, then their elbows, then their shoulders; that's based on the Oksapmin people of New Guinea, who have a base-27 number system revolving around their hands, faces, and various joints in the upper body

2. There are reptiles! Mostly snakes. They were fine back before the war, where light and kindling fire was everywhere, but they've had to adapt a LOT in the past century and a half. The reptiles have split into four main groups: thermal, domestic, symbiotic, and feral.

Thermal reptiles are exotic ones, and the ones that saw probably the least change to their way of life. These reptiles lived in volcanic regions, or around hot springs, and never got dependent on the Lightbringers to stay warm.

Domestic reptiles are the most common; humans, elves, and kindlings kept a lot of snakes and turtles for meat in the same way that we do things like chicken or sheep. When the lights went out, they had a buffer to keep them safe in the form of intervention; nowadays, domestic reptiles live cozy and safe from the threat of freezing, since elves will bring them bowls of kindling fire to crowd around.

Symbiotic reptiles were the wild ones that used to get by with only passing light from far-off cities or fields. The cold forced them to adapt quickly or die, so those that DID manage to adapt snuggled up to larger, warm-blooded animals for heat. They now protect the dens of animals from predators in exchange for their heat, kind of like how some spiders will keep frogs in order to stop ants from eating their eggs. Symbiosis!

Feral reptiles have a sadder past, like domestic pigeons. They roam the streets of cities, living off of the heat and light the elves put in place for themselves, and are descended from domestic reptiles that escaped when the lights went out.

There's technically a fifth group of reptiles that burrows into the warm ground far beneath the surface, called tunneling reptiles, but they're rarely seen. They do help aerate the soil like worms do whenever they DO surface, though.

Symbiotic reptiles will absolutely climb onto a kindling that's out camping. Although, that's a hazard to their own health if they get used to it, because they'll see fire as a friend and fail to recognize something like a wildfire as a danger.

[synchlora]

Can I ask what the end goal with Jasper is? Are you planning on releasing her? :O Also my ma found an art print photograph of pigeons for free today and gave it to me randomly omg the serendipity

ooh pog !! and ofc! since she isn't native nor a wild animal (she's a feral domesticated animal, like a feral cat) i do not plan on releasing her. long term plan is to acclimate her to people over time and set her up in a extra large dog kennel style setup with a mate. currently, im not sure on her sex so the hope to find her a partner is for the future once she's done with quarantine and we know what sex she is, but she will need a partner eventually simply because pigeons are intensely social. a kennel setup is a common indoor pigeon setup for a pair and it basically acts as the nest space for two birds that are allowed out into the room/house whenever supervised. once she does get to the kennel stage, she'll be allowed out supervised in my room but not others just because of the cat.

the Long long term plan is to eventually find a place with enough of a yard/balcony to make an outdoor loft for a small flock. she is a feral so a loft would be preferable in the long run when it comes to the social and spacial aspects of it all. but for now a kennel suffices (or Will once she's out of quarantine and out of the carrier) and having outside time in the room will be good exercise. my room is technically larger than a loft would be, but the difference with a loft is that she'd have more of a choice of when to fly out!

[doberbutts]

Re: exotic pets. Thank you! It drives me nuts to see them lumped together. Technically hamsters/gerbils/other rodents are exotic pets AND have nuisance behaviours AND can carry diseases, yet we still keep them as pets with few qualms. Plus despite being domesticated for many years at this point, they maintain many of their wild behaviours which in non-experienced hands can be really awful.

Right, there's the whole problem of "how exotic is too exotic" because many pet rodents are technically domesticated animals and yet have fully wild behaviors and can readily interbreed with their wild counterparts during an escape (if in an area where those are present). Pet rabbits can and will breed with wild rabbits and some places have a huge feral rabbit problem thanks to Easter and people releasing their pet rabbits when care becomes too difficult. Ferrets are a fully domesticated species with no true wild counterpart (the closest being the black footed ferret which is still critically endangered iirc) and yet are animals with a laundry list of behavioral problems and improper care concerns and are more than capable of attacking and seriously harming a human. No, seriously, I needed fucking stitches after being attacked by a pet store ferret in the store I worked at because the creature was resource guarding its empty food bowl I was trying to fill.

[yes I am aware rabbits and ferrets are not rodents, I've worked at pet stores for long enough that they are all lumped together as "small animals"]

Birds??? Many pet birds are tamed and captive bred wild animals, and even the few that aren't are frequently mistreated and improperly kept and many die from completely preventable problems in their care. One look at how people treat pigeons, another fully domesticated species, and how feral pigeons have become a huge problem once again due to release and improper care, and how many of these birds are suffering this way will tell you that.

The fact of the matter is that there are "acceptable exotics" and "unacceptable exotics" and the difference between the two is wildly subjective and will vary person to person and makes a lot of assumptions about "acceptable exotics" that may be caught by specific legislature written on this topic. Additionally it makes a lot of assumptions about actual domesticated animals considering, as said, dogs kill a very large number of people every year and bite exponentially more and yet we have accepted that breed bans and various dog laws are not the way to solve this problem.

[augustheart]

Are doves a type of pigeon? I just remembered you posting about the fact that you had mentally assigned a type of pigeon to most characters you were interested in. Speaking of which, what other characters do you not get to talk about much have you assigned a pigeon to?

Sorry I’m gonna specialized interest all over this one.

Pigeons and doves are in the same family (Columbidae, the only family in the Columbiformes order). There are fifty genera in that family, with a lot of genetic diversity. Domestic/feral pigeons and the wild birds they’re descended from are called Rock Pigeons and Rock Doves interchangeably, because generally the only difference in English between pigeons and doves is size, and the pure white doves that are familiar to people are white Rock Doves (domestic pigeons). Rock Doves/domestic pigeons, however, are not in the Petrophassa (literally “Rock Dove”) genus, which contains two species found in Australia and nowhere else, which is funny.

Pigeon can still technically be used for birds who are genetically classified as doves, such as Mourning Doves, Ringneck Doves (African Collared-doves), the fruit-dove family, etc. It isn’t usually done, however, since the majority of them aren’t even in the same genus as Rock Doves/domestic pigeons.

Basically: doves and pigeons share a family, and the broader name can be used somewhat interchangeably, even though it shouldn’t be when talking about specific species (i.e., I include birds called doves in the broader category of “pigeon,” even species like Diamond Doves, but I don’t necessarily use pigeon to talk about a specific species by using it as a replacement for “dove”--like calling a Diamond Dove a Diamond Pigeon). It’s sort of like squares and rectangles. 

[mauerfrau]

We know that many of the nations have animal companions. France has Pierre the pigeon, Prussia has Gilbird, England has Flying Mint Bunny, etc. If Lily were in the canon series, what would her animal companion be?

//Ooo, I love this question. Thank you.

I’m not totally sure. She does technically have 2 dogs and a cat already. But if we’re looking for some kind of fun, out of the ordinary thing that’s tied more to her being Berlin, then I have a few thoughts. 

The first, and probably my favorite, is to play up the “Bärlin” (”Bearlin”) joke and give her a small black bear that follows her around and no one can explain (and who maybe can suddenly become huge and scary when she needs it to). 

If we’re looking for a little more grounded though, then some kind of urban critter. A fox maybe, or a raccoon, or a pigeon or sparrow, or possibly a formerly feral cat. A fox or raccoon would certainly fit her job description. Evidently Berlin has quite a few interesting wild animals living there: https://www.dw.com/en/10-wild-animals-that-call-berlin-home/g-19386189

[tearlessrain]

A clarification

So it’s come to my attention that a lot of people don’t know what the terms wild/feral/tame/domesticated actually mean, because those aren’t actually interchangeable.

The difference between wild and domesticated animals is genetic. A wild animal is any species that’s had limited contact with humans and doesn’t live with/around them intentionally; wolves, deer, bears, raccoons, you know how wild animals work. Domestication happens over generations of selection for the ability to interact well with humans; it’s the difference between wolves and dogs or near-eastern wildcats and housecats. Any animal commonly kept as livestock, work animals, or pets is going to be a domesticated species. It also leads to fairly consistent physical changes to the species like more coat color variation, smaller teeth/muzzle, and a longer juvenile period (also a retention of more juvenile behavior into adulthood).

Feral refers to any domestic animal living on its own or in the wild. "Wild” mustangs, stray dog/cat colonies, and rock doves (aka city pigeons, you’ve seen ‘em) are all feral animals that were originally domesticated by humans and then got loose or were abandoned. This is why mustangs and pigeons have so much color and marking variation in comparison to actual wild animals. It’s also why it’s technically possible to go out, catch a "wild horse,” and eventually train and ride it. You cannot do that (at least not well) with a zebra or an elk. It works with horses because horses have been bred for generations upon generations to work with humans. It still won’t always work with a feral animal that hasn’t been socialized at all, but you can hand-rear a feral kitten and end up with a friendly, loving cat in a way that would never work with its wild counterpart, which will likely grow up to be a dangerous asshole with no people skills even if you raise it perfectly, it’s about as effective as raising a child in a strict christian homeschooling household with no media to prevent them from sinning. Might work. Probably gonna end badly for everyone, especially the child and/or pet bushbaby. Feral animals are also invasive species, and mustangs are a problem that isn’t being solved effectively because people think they’re wild animals that need to be protected but that’s another issue for another rant. 

Tame generally refers to a wild animal that’s been raised by humans and can more or less live with them. Any pet fox or carriage-pulling zebra is in this category. Yes, any pet fox, the Russian project never fully domesticated them and did so on an extremely small scale (I’m pretty sure they’re also defunct now because they ran out of funding). If someone in the US is selling you a “domesticated fox” you’re being lied to and you’re about to bring a wild, high-energy animal that may or may not have been properly socialized into your home. DON’T KEEP FOXES AS PETS.

I’m not saying that a tamed wild animal is 100% bad 100% of the time, the wildlife center where I volunteer has a variety of socialized ambassador birds who are chosen because they can’t survive in the wild but still do fine with assistance, and they’re part of our education program. The key is they still aren’t treated like pets, you don’t snuggle with an eagle and you keep their environment as low-stress as possible. They have extremely different needs from a domestic animal and won’t necessarily have the same body language even with close domestic relatives. This is why wolfdogs, savannah cats, parrots, and foxes are all a bad pets and usually end up with all parties having a bad time. Tame can also refer to a feral animal that’s been re-socialized and is a looser term than the others because it’s also a verb and refers more to the state of an individual animal than a blanket term for a type of animal. Aka you can tame a mustang or an owl but you can’t have a feral owl.

Anyway yeah pigeons aren’t wild animals, wolves aren’t feral, don’t keep exotic pets, thanks for coming to my ted talk.

[plutodiplomat]

I have seen far too many posts (2. that’s two too many) from people who are very compassionate about feral city pigeons. they’re so sweet and lovely and precious and you should maybe pick one up and bring it home as a pet. oh, see pigeons were domesticated but then we abandoned them so it’s fine :)

are you sure you’re not thinking of passenger pigeons? those were domesticated. they’re also extinct. maybe I could believe today’s pigeons are some sort of offshoot of that species of pigeons? I mean I guess they look pretty harmless. But have you ever tried to get near one? they do the little bird shuffle that most birds do when you get too close.

it’s so funny! people are advocating pigeon ownership like people who will jokingly say you should dump 20 pounds of ice into an oil fry vat. blatantly stupid and dangerous advice. but the people who say that know it’s dumb, and most people who read it will probably know that too. clown to clown communication. I think these pigeon appreciators are serious. I think they really want to take a pigeon home. they want other people to take pigeons home. I reblogged a tweet someone made, they sounded like their heart was about to break from the sorrow they felt for the pigeon’s plight.

well I for one do not feel sorry for these birds! even if it’s true they were domesticated (I’m skeptical) how long has it been since they were supposedly domesticated? I don’t know how long domestication lasts in a species, if it goes on for generations or if it needs to be repeated or what. I feel like it would probably be less effective once these birds started living in the ‘wild’. that’s why this is so baffling, and kind of funny. I’m waiting for the “I can’t believe people really believed that you could bring home a pigeon and keep it as a pet” post. “they’re just going to shit on your floor and make noise and wreck things! Please just take 10 seconds to look up things you read on the internet!” etc. etc.

well you’re not going to get me this time! I am no more likely to pick up a pigeon than I would a damn seagull, and they’re everywhere. I’m not! I’m putting my foot down, and saying with great pride, I am not going to bring home a wild pigeon I picked up off the street! and I’m not sorry for them, even if they are technically domesticated.

see, all these people who I swear I’ve seen advocate for pigeon ownership, why don’t they go ahead and prove it to us. YOU can try to keep a pigeon as a pet. tell us all how it goes.

[stufflivisees]

Vital Signs Rules

These are the guidelines I’ve inflicted on set for myself for this winter’s project. They probably aren’t relevant to anyone but me, but I want to document them (so the project is easier to understand, and so I can refer back if needed!).

Goal: take a picture of some sign of life in nature every week between the Autumnal Equinox 2017 and the Spring Equinox 2018.

The purpose of the project is to maintain perspective. It’s about realizing that even though the world goes to sleep during the winter, that doesn’t mean life goes away, or that I am any less connected to my environment. It’s just harder to see – like a person snuggled deep under a comforter.

The pictures should all be “decent”. My 2014 project required me to take a picture every day, and as long as I made some effort toward its composition, it didn’t matter whether the picture actually came out looking good in the end. This time, I have a week to make decisions and edit, so each picture has to be “good enough”. I realize not everything is going to be True Art and some will even have glaring errors, but it should have some points of merit, some reason why a person might want to look at it – interesting concept, appealing colors, good composition, crisp detail, a rare photo opportunity, and so on.

The subjects of the photos are either living things or signs that living things have left in their paths. Living plants and animals count, as do footprints, feathers, eaten plants, nut shells, etc. (Less poetic signs of life like scat or owl pellets would technically count, but they’re gross, so it’s unlikely those are subjects I would want to photograph at all.)

The subjects have to be relying on the seasonal environment to survive, not just on humans. Livestock and pets that are being almost entirely sheltered and cared for by humans wouldn’t count because they’re part of human society. Invasive species that were brought here but are no longer purposefully cared for by humans (e.g. pigeons) do count as long as they are truly feral/wild, however. A “gray area” would be many kinds of outdoor garden plants, which people intentionally grow and nurture, but which do rely on the seasonal environment to grow and survive. I’d say those plants can be included in the project but would hopefully not be my only photograph that week.

If I take a picture that’s likely to be difficult for an observer to understand within the scope of the project, then I have to include a brief caption explaining why it’s part of the project.

And finally, I hope to take other, unrelated photos while out searching for signs of life, too!

[augustheart]

If owls fling themselves at their problems when they are young does that mean that Hooty might have been very young when she came into Doctor Mid-Nite's life? I mean she flung herself hard enough into a window to break it and ended up being injured and that is how they met. It kind of explains the early comics where she flew into people trying to kill Doctor Mid-Nite and took them out that way. But owls having little fear also works out pretty well for a lot of the stories I am planning.

Likely was a combination of a) youth and b) birds already having a tendency to strike windows. Even birds that can recognize themselves in mirrors (feral pigeons, parrots, corvids, etc) can still have fatal window collisions because they don’t register that the reflection isn’t of sky, even if it is of them--which they still may not register before it’s too late. Raptors are no different. However, youth would not only make her more susceptible to window strikes but would also make it a lot easier to train her. Young birds that don’t quite know how to bird yet are easier to train, that’s why it’s ideal for falconry birds to be raised from nestlings by their falconer. 

Considering you’re using an accurate time period, you may not need to have him fill out all the paperwork that’s now required for private ownership of a native bird of prey, but if you do, I’d recommend giving her some kind of disability that would make it difficult for her to survive in the wild alone. That doesn’t necessarily mean she can’t still hypothetically survive on her own, it just means it’s tangibly harder. (For example, where I volunteer, our only non-imprinted education bird is an American Kestrel who, while fledging, broke one of her legs and one of her wings. The injuries are healed now, but she lands awkwardly when she pounces on prey, so we can’t confidently say that she has a 100% chance of living the same quality of wild life as her brother, who was only stunned and was raised with minimal human contact before being released.) Crashing through a window could’ve permanently severed one of her toes, or something like that--technically, she could survive, and even thrive, but to be on the safe side...