#(very boring) | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

vashtijoy · 1 year

Text

Today I want to rant at length about highlight a plot-relevant but otherwise rather dry line from Shido's Palace, simply because it's been living rent-free in my head for days and I'll die if I don't.

And up front I want to say: this is not intended as translator bashing, shit like this is rarely on the translator, though I will possibly get a little aerated at times. More about that at the end.

This is really long, and probably very boring. So to summarise quickly:

Ooe's "diplomat" and "president of some company" are the Minister for Transport and the railway company president from the 4/10 cinematic with Sae and the SIU director;

Shido wasn't "specially appointed", he's the Minister of State for Special Missions, likely with oversight for either the PTs or the psychotic breakdowns;

being a pro translator sucks;

something about a well.

my least favourite line so far

Shadow Politician 春先に地下鉄事故があっただろう?狙ったのは、あの運転士だからな。 harusaki ni chikatetsu jiko ga atta darou? neratta no wa, ano untenshu da kara na Do you recall the subway accident early last spring? The one I had targeted was that engineer.

nb—this "engineer" is the train driver. I didn't get this at all, but apparently train drivers are called engineers in the US? This is a good example of how something you think is a mistranslation may not be.

There is an occasion where the guy is referred to as a "driver", but this is actually 車掌 shashou—in Japanese, a conductor in the British sense, the member of staff who is not the driver, but walks up and down checking tickets. This is meant to hint to us, I suspect, that the NPC saying this may not be a reliable source—he's making some spooky claims, after all. Yet again, in America, the conductor can be the driver of the train...? IDK, confusion abounds.

But on to the important bit:

Shadow Politician 目障りな国交大臣と、現政権派の社長のクビを取るためだった。mezawarina kokkou daijin to, genseiken-ha no shachou no kubi o toru tame datta It was to take out the president of some company and a diplomat who sided with current government.

Full disclosure: I have never liked this line. It screamed of being mistranslated. "The president of some company"? Ooe had this guy destroyed, and he can't be specific? And "a diplomat"? This has come from nowhere—I can't think of another diplomat in P5. It just all seems so random. And it is random. Because this was meant to close up a background plot element from the start of the game, and it just... doesn't any more.

So, for this one, I'm just going to break out the big red DENIED stamp again:

The hell of it all is that I can see what they did here, so I'm going to go through it at excessive length, as like... an object lesson in what not to do. Not just for you, but for me.

And I need to be clear up front that I'm not an authoritative source on the Japanese language. I'm not fluent, my Japanese is barely passable (which is why asks, comments and discussion on my language posts are all always super welcome, btw, just like for everything else I post). I'm just a weeb on the Internet, who constantly posts assertions and theories that future me will hate. Bring your salt shaker.

Quick glimpse behind the curtain: this is from my Google doc for Shido's Palace. You have the textbox code, the speaker, then the text in Japanese, romaji and the localisation. Usually these days I don't add the romaji (it's not good for your reading), but lines that go into posts get it temporarily.

Words I don't know, or had to verify (like shachou, where I wanted to know if it was always a company president or if it could be a role within a political faction), or lore/grammar notes, all get comments, which are highlighted in yellow.

the peril of dictionaries

I'm bilingual English/Welsh-speaking; until I was fifteen, I was educated through the medium of Welsh. So I got taught very early on about the correct use of dictionaries. The exact example I remember is that a past pupil (probably apocryphal) wanted to put "Well, Dad was angry!" into Welsh. And they had looked up "well"....

ffynnon, roedd Dad yn grac! Well, Dad was angry!

This is a ffynnon:

It's a funny story. The point is that you should always flip to the other half of the dictionary to verify the meaning you found. Or these days, with the Internet and all, we get to check multiple dictionaries, corpuses and sources! And a riotously good time it is.

part one: who was that mysterious diplomat

The main phrase I want to focus on is 国交大臣 kokkou daijin. This is what has been rendered "a diplomat" in the localisation. On first glance, that's a string of kanji I don't know: country, the right-hand side of the second half of 学校 gakkou (school), something about a big man... is that read daijin?...

Maybe it's a yojijukugo—a fixed four-kanji phrase with an often-idiomatic meaning? Let's put the whole thing into Jisho and see what we get.

(Incidentally, I bash Jisho constantly, but it's still my first stop because it's fast and often good enough. You just shouldn't rely on it for anything critical; trust, but verify.)

Well, there's no yojijukugo. But one glance at that tells us that Ooe's "diplomat" is not a diplomat at all. Ooe's "diplomat" is the Minister for Transport who was brought down as a result of this subway crash in April. You might have thought Shido had this guy taken out, but no. He did it for Ooe. He crashed a subway train, injuring 80 people, as nothing but a favour to Ooe.

But why is it using kokkou, "diplomatic relations"? Well, Jisho gives us a convenient "see also" link. Let's take a look:

You see what they did there? The full phrase is 国土交通相 kokudo koutsuu-shou, "Minister for (National) Land and Transport". But nobody wants to say that. So you strike out some of the kanji. The word becomes kokkoushou—but everyone still knows who you mean.

Let's do a bit of that verification I mentioned. Here's Wikipedia:

HmmMM. Notice how the Minister and the Ministry are read the same; only the last kanji changes. But we're still on track.

Let's click over to Japanese Wikipedia. What do they have to say?

And there it is again, highlighted: our old friend 国交 kokkou, "diplomatic relations". "In Japanese, this is commonly abbreviated as kokkoushou".

daijin

How about 大臣 daijin? It looks like it just means "big man" or "important man", but what does it actually mean? Again, let's start with Jisho:

... B|

Jisho offers us a bunch of "further reference" links, so I'm going to go straight to Japanese Wikipedia for this one—which sends you to an old revision of the page, by the way; be sure to go to the latest one:

大臣（だいじん）は、本来は皇帝や国王などを輔弼して国政を司る重要官職だが、今日では一般的に君主制か共和制かにかかわらず、政府を構成し、各行政部門の長に位置する官職を指す。閣僚ともいう。 Historically, 大臣 daijin referred to the high position of those responsible for matters of state, who advised emperors and kings on those matters. However, today it generally refers, regardless of whether the government in question is a monarchy or republic, to an official who leads a division of government.

... ... B|

In other words, a cabinet minister. Seems to sum it up pretty well, but let's just look at the invaluable ALC corpus on this:

So we have it. A daijin is unquestionably a cabinet minister. And Ooe is unquestionably talking about the Minister for Transport.

last-minute edit: I actually wrote this entire post, preened for completing it, then closed it in my drafts and forgot all about it. Until I opened my grammar text to a random page and found this:

EVEN MY GRAMMAR BOOK KNOWS.

Actual grammar books are a bit obsolete in 2023, but that is a great one if you're in the market. Just don't get the Kindle edition, it's illegible on Kindle which is probably not what you want.

Incidentally, yes, a Diet member is sensei—you can often hear people refer to Shido that way.

but we can also backreference this one

Another cool thing we can do is get context-relevant examples. That is, we can search the P5 script itself to see how it uses daijin and kokkou daijin.

Two lines use kokkou daijin. One is this line of Ooe's. The other is a news story, which gets it right:

Newscaster 国交大臣の辞任に伴い、与党への批判が高まっており⋯ kokkou daijin no jinin ni tomanai, yotou e no hihan ga takamatte ori... Criticism of the ruling party has surged, following the resignation of the Minister of Transport.

But people talk about the Minister quite a bit. What phrases do they use? Well, sometimes he's simply the daijin—"the Minister"; this usually becomes "Minister of Transport" for context. Sometimes he's the kokkoushou, as we discussed above. And often, on the news, he gets his full title—he's the kokudo koutsuu daijin.

Usually, daijin by itself in P5 is part of 総理大臣 souri daijin—the prime minister.

meanwhile in shidoland

In passing, the MoT is not the only one who gets translated out of the script. You might remember from the calling card cinematic that Shido is the "Minister of State for Special Missions".

Makoto tries to tell us this at one point:

Makoto 特命担当大臣現職の閣僚よ tokumei tantou daijin genshoku no kanryou yo He was specially appointed to the position. That's his current title. He's the current Minister of State for Special Missions.

(What is that, exactly? I'm not gonna do a huge research effort on this one right now, this post is already longer than the Nile and dry as sand, but they appear to be appointed to deal with things that are a big deal—the link gives you examples of some of the issues they've been appointed for. It's not inconceivable that Shido was appointed to the Cabinet to deal with the national crisis of psychotic breakdowns and mental shutdowns that he started. Either that, or the PTs themselves—he does talk about them an awful lot.)

and that's not all

There is, of course, a real Japanese Minister for Transport. We can put kokkou daijin into Google (with a little は on the end to filter Chinese-language sites), and what do we get back? The first hit is the Wikipedia page for the Minister for Transport.

My guess would be that the translator knew the word kokkou, but they didn't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of Japanese politics. So they read kokkou daijin as some kind of important diplomat.

part two: in which we invent time travel

And that was only the first of the two things that made me hate my life about that textbox. Let's bring the line back:

The second thing that got under my skin was this:

現政権派の社長 genseiken-ha no shachou

This means, in the terms of the localisation, "a company president who sided with current government". But... what is even going on here?

In Japanese, modifiers go before the things they modify, right? Like ... always. I'm going to cite the slightly-tongue-in-cheek but also inestimable Jay Rubin (probably best known as Haruki Murakami's English translator) on this:

... by about the middle of the seventh century, the Emperor, who still wielded actual power then, made a rule, maybe the one rule that really works in the language and never gets broken: “From this day forward, subjects will always come before their verbs. And, just to keep things neat, modifiers will always come before what they modify.” Never in all these centuries have there been any exceptions—at least not in normal syntax....

Shōmetsu shita zō is “The elephant that vanished”—a fragment, just a noun with a modifier in front of it. By putting it before the zō, we’ve changed the shōmetsu shita into a modifier. I’m going to go way out on a limb here and call anything that modifies a noun an adjective. Shōmetsu shita zō (literally, “vanished elephant”) works exactly the same way as utsukushii zō (“beautiful elephant”).

(That's from the book "Making Sense of Japanese", by the way, which y'all should totally read if you can find a copy. It's one of Kodansha's little books, which are all worth at least a glance; they published tons of them, with titles like "All About Particles" and "How To Sound Intelligent In Japanese" and etc etc etc.)

back to our sentence

So how is this translation breaking that rule? Let's look at it again, with the problematic parts bolded:

目障りな国交大臣と、現政権派の社長のクビを取るためだった。mezawarina kokkou daijin to, genseiken-ha no shachou no kubi o toru tame datta It was to take out the president of some company and a diplomat who sided with current government.

現政権派 genseiken-ha is the current government; the current administration. No problems there. It's just in the wrong place.

kokkou daijin, we established, is the localisation's "diplomat". genseiken-ha no translates as "aligned with the current government". But genseiken-ha is after kokkou daijin. It cannot be modifying it. It can't have been taken for a relative clause—what Jay Rubin framed as an adjective in the quote up there—because we still have the two people the sentence describes, the "diplomat" and the businessman; the sentence has not been read as talking about a diplomat who is also a government-boosting company president.

We should have, literally, "an eyesore of a minister for transport" and "a company president who sides with current government". But we just... don't.

Is it possible it doesn't make sense that a company president would be aligned with the government? Has the sentence been rearranged for that reason? But this is essentially what Okumura does: he's a company boss aligned with a powerful politician. So are the TV and IT Execs whose shadows we meet, for that matter. They are not in politics themselves, but they network with politicians. Big business and politics are always hand-in-hand.

All of this gives us the following working version of the translation:

It was to take down that intolerable Minister of Transport and a company president who supported the government.

And on that note....

who is that mysterious company president

"the president of some company", the localisation says. This seems a bit vagued up. Are there any company presidents we should be aware of here?

The answer is yes:

On 4/10, in the cinematic after the crash, the SIU Director talks at length about how this is the fault of "the company and the government". Of course he does—he knows very well what's happened, and he knows where the blame is to be assigned:

SIU Director: It's less of an operating accident and more of a crime of the company and the government. SIU Director: Site inspectors apparently reported all of this six months ago—the deterioration of the tracks and the ATC.

And the last two lines in full, since they diverge:

SIU Director それを会社が隠ぺい…国交省も故意に見逃したフツがある。 sore o kaisha ga inpei... kokkoushou mo koi ni minogashita futsu ga aru Seems the railway company and the Ministry of Transport both turned a blind eye to the truth. So the railway company covered it up... and the Ministry of Transport did what they do best: they turned a blind eye to it..

This is just a slight difference in emphasis: the railway company allegedly performed a deliberate coverup, and it was the Ministry that did their normal thing, and chose to overlook that coverup....

But note that "railway company" here is just 会社 kaisha, "company". Originally, it was obvious from context; the localisation clarifies it. But when Ooe later mentions a 社交 shachou, a "company president", in the same obvious-from-context way, it has not been picked up on—our very personal railway company president has become "the president of some company". Who was important enough for Ooe to personally destroy, but not important enough for him to remember where he worked.

SIU Director 隠し通せんよ。大臣の進退まで行くだろう。 kakushitoosen yo. daijin no shintai made iku darou There's no way they can hide. This will go all the way to the top. They can't keep this hushed up forever. By the end of this, the transport minister's job will be on the line.

... but here's the first real appearance of the Minister for Transport, with the SIU Director—who, again let's not forget, knows this crash was engineered in part to get that minister—not just saying this incident will "go all the way to the top", but that it will specifically end with them coming for the minister's job.

where did we come from, where did we go

Where does that leave us with the sentence?

It was to take out the president of some company and a diplomat who sided with current government. It was to take down that intolerable Minister of Transport, and the president of the railway company. He supported the government, after all.

We've broken that little genseiken-ha out into its own little explaining sentence, since it's hard to phrase as one sentence in natural English. And now you know.

btw, leave the translators alone

Look, this is far from the best translation I've ever seen. We should be mad about this, right? Well... no.

As a hobbyist, I have the luxury of focusing on a single fandom, spending hours, days, or weeks thinking about single scenes, researching context, language and concepts, confirming I've understood things to the best of my ability. Your average animanga/JRPG translator is not being paid well enough, or given nearly enough time, to do this. They cannot be expected to do this.

This is not, not, NOT on the translator. Read that ten times. We are supposed to go from our second language to our native tongue; that's how translation works best. So there will always be areas of confusion like this, things that need clarification and research. Japanese media translation requires a vast knowledge of differently arcane terms depending on the work; nobody will know them all.

Who is this on? It's on Atlus, for skimping on and rushing not only the translation but the editing; they did the English localisation of a massive property on the cheap. Something like this should have been caught by the editor, but honestly P5's editing (including the way things are finalised in English, and the overall polishing of the script) tends to come in for more criticism than the translation per se.

tl;dr: blame the company, not the poor translator who was most likely just one of us trying to make a shitty living with something they love, and a skill they worked their ass off for.

#persona 5 #p5 meta #japanese language #translation #long post #very long #very boring #you have been warned

59 notes · View notes