#1x04 meta

[ladyluscinia]

Izzy Hands Is Manipulative, But Not That Way

...or I finally finish that long ass meta post about why I love the fucking Navy Plot lol

The Izzy manipulation debate has been really interesting to me pretty much since it started, because I'd see a post arguing he's manipulating Edward and go "No, and he couldn't if he tried" and then the next post would say he sucks at manipulation because he's a blunt fucking instrument and I'd go "Yea- wait. Hmm. No, he can be targeted and tricky as fuck." Which does, on its surface, seem like a contradictory stance, but I swear it works.

Because the thing with Izzy - and this is such a fun thing imo - is there are two core types of manipulation that characters engage in, and Izzy fucking sucks at the one you expect his style of antagonist to focus on. But he's scarily good at the other.

Long meta under the cut, so get comfy.

...

From his role under Edward to the protagonist vs antagonist dynamic setup to his introduction scenes, Izzy is very much invoking the conniving second in command. We know this character from other media. He doesn't have the full power he wants so he's constantly scheming to get it. He can't or won't challenge his boss for some reason, so he settles for being the devil on their shoulder or working behind their back. He's the voice constantly ready to inflame insecurities and turn relationship cracks into chasms, and usually he's lying constantly to do so. His fingerprints are all over his boss's problems up to the moment they show some weakness, and then their loyal second goes right for the backstab. He is THE ambitious manipulator. The shady advisor. The snake.

And then you actually look at Izzy and he is not that guy. In fact, it's a testament to the strength of Edward's character arc how much his evil little henchman is not causing his problems.

So - Izzy and manipulation:

Izzy Can't Convince People To Do Things

Like. He really can't.

This interpersonal struggle is fairly fundamental to his character. And moreover, it's a skill that Izzy is intensely aware that he lacks, so usually he doesn't even try.

In his first episode he walks right up to Buttons and just straight up asks him for the information on his party. He doesn't even resolve to steal the hostages until he realizes that Stede has lost them in the bush already, and Izzy obtains them by buying them. When Stede confronts him they end up splitting the pair in a very above-board negotiation and he pretty much just goes with what Stede suggests.

Then in 1x03, people make a big deal of Izzy "manipulating" Edward by not clarifying that Stede didn't know who he was when he turned down the invite, but kind of importantly he repeats the damning line of the conversation faithfully. If he was going to lie, then why not lie? Why even go see Stede at all? And, if he didn't want Stede dead until after the conversation (understandable, tbh, since "Iggy" was stab-worthy), surely he could invent a better insult to rile Edward up. It makes his omission hit more like being bitchy about Stede not recognizing the obvious - namely that Izzy Hands works for Blackbeard and literally everyone knows this - than a slander campaign to get him killed. And once we properly meet Izzy and Edward in 1x04, Izzy's inability to manipulate becomes his main struggle.

Izzy's a blunt and direct person. He leans on authority bestowed by Blackbeard to take control of situations, playing the role he's supposed to play, and without it he lacks a Plan B. In 1x04 he doesn't have any authority over Edward, so his efforts to get him to take the danger of the Spanish seriously amount to "Well as bored as you might be, if you don't make a decision soon we're gonna fucking die." And this is true! There might be a very subconscious attempt at manipulation in his resignation speech before the "That's Blackbeard. I'm Stede, remember?" line - of the piss him off to get him to get his shit together variety - but Edward literally makes a joke out of it so not exactly effective.

And once Edward stops giving Izzy authority in general, his plan to make Lucius do stuff is still just... brute force. Which works at first when Lucius doesn't realize that Izzy's on his own now, and stops working as soon as Fang breaks ranks. His last ditch blackmail attempt isn't manipulative either - he just plans to tell the truth to Pete and assumes he'll be pissed about it. My guy loses a fight over the pirate equivalent of making an uppity employee clean the coffee maker while the boss is out. Not only does he fail to manipulate the crew in a conniving antagonist way... he doesn't even try.

I mean, the only time he (somewhat) succeeds in talking someone into things is 1x06. Getting Edward to agree to killing Stede isn't really manipulation - Izzy gets Fang and Ivan to back him in a very straightforward way because they all actually do have a stake in this - but he's passably able to push Stede to go through with the fuckery via fake compliments. It's not exactly high level work, though. Stede being vulnerable to ego-stroking / dares is pretty obvious.

So what is Izzy good at?

Well, if you can't make people do anything other than what they were going to do in the first place, you might as well lean into that.

...

Izzy Manipulates Situations, Not People

Situational manipulation is one of those fictional tropes that rarely can happen in real life, but there's not much resemblance because real life rarely gives you all the building blocks for a proper gambit and lets you loose. Too many factors. In narratives, though? It becomes one of my favorite ways of having a character be clever.

And before I get into this too much, a really fun sidenote - I think Izzy does situational manipulation more like the way protagonists do it. See, antagonists are usually emotionally and situationally manipulative (ex: provoking the hero to lash out and using it to frame them for a bigger crime), but it's not a good look when your hero drives the target to do something bad and then punishes them for it. So heroes lean on stuff like Batman Gambits - where the lynchpin of the scheme is the target fucking themselves over by behaving completely in character. They've written Izzy so ineffective at emotional manipulation that he pretty much has to rely on other characters' flaws or histories to cause problems, which has a very similar result. And it's wild.

...

Going back to the 1x03 confrontation in Jackie's bar, Izzy doesn't really do anything abnormal in how he conducts himself, but people are picking up on an agenda for a reason. Namely, the whole damn conversation quickly turns into a trap, and Izzy fully sits back and watches Stede spring it from sheer idiocy.

There's no indication that when Izzy walked up he wasn't going to carry out his task with all the bitchy professionalism expected of him, while probably hoping that Stede would eventually stick his foot in his mouth without Izzy's help (assuming he's the kind of idiot Izzy thinks he is). His first section of this conversation is nearly polite:

Izzy (about the Nose Jar): "I have a few colleagues in there." Stede: "Ugh. You again." Geraldo: "Mr. Hands, welcome. It's been a while." Izzy: "(To Geraldo) Yeah, because I hate this fucking place. (To Stede) But for some inexplicable reason, my boss would like a word with you. Bonnet."

It's not until Stede starts talking that I think Izzy clues in that Stede doesn't actually know who his boss is. He didn't introduce himself until the literal last second of their 1x02 interaction, so it wasn't obvious Stede wasn't literally bolting into the forest in horrified realization.

And Stede? He goes hard on being a bitch right out the gate. Brushes Izzy off, tells him to "get in line", calls him the wrong name, says he doesn't care who Izzy is...

Izzy so far has met Stede in a public place, in front of people who clearly treat Izzy with respect and fear. He doesn't bring up their previous interaction, Stede does. He doesn't even goad Stede beyond existing. He corrects him on his name, and watches it not register in the slightest. The next line is the clincher:

Izzy (slightly incredulous): "So I'll tell my Captain that you're declining then, yeah?"

As Izzy is speaking the conversation becomes a trap - he chooses a reasonable way to refer to Edward that isn't "Blackbeard" and waits to see if Stede will make this worse. The jump from "no I'm busy" to "tell him he has terrible taste in flunkies and he can go suck eggs in Hell" is all Stede, completely ignoring context clues as Geraldo stares on in horror. Hell, Jackie only refrains from later de-nosing Stede on the spot because Geraldo knows what's up, and Stede still doesn't pick up on the fact he should maybe be asking some questions (though I'll give him the knife was distracting).

Izzy returns to the ship, quotes Stede directly for his damning line, and waits to see what Edward will do with it. It's not good behavior on his part (and if he could have seen the future he might have tried worse), but switching mid-conversation to offering Stede an opportunity to fuck himself over is a very different mindset than simply lying to / provoking Stede or Edward to get what he wants. He's mostly being petty.

Stede did insult Edward of his own volition, after all, and just because Izzy fudges the truth to hide he didn't know he was insulting Blackbeard instead of just Izzy and a random stranger doesn't change that. All Izzy did to "escalate" that conversation was give Stede a second opening to do so himself.

But there is a far better example of Izzy masterfully manipulating a situation than this in-the-moment bit of pettiness, so let's move onto my favorite bit... explaining in extensive and slightly awestruck detail why the Navy plot. Fucking. Rules. Because it does. Ready?

...

How to Mastermind the Decisive Removal of One Stupid Fucking Stede Bonnet Over Drinks

Ahem. The Navy plot. Masterclass in intimate betrayal. Izzy's biggest escalation in the total collapse of Edward and Izzy's relationship, but also a completely fucking fascinating glimpse into whatever tangled web of codependency they've got going on, because Edward isn't even mad after 1x09. This wordcount is going to be insane enough without me getting into the Blackhands relationship connotations, so I will... attempt... to stick to breaking down the actual scheme.

And what a scheme it was.

Let's start at the beginning. Jack showing up to lure them into the trap at the start of 1x08? Nope, earlier. Izzy getting kicked off the ship and going to Jackie at the end of 1x06? Further back. Edward proposing the "kill Stede" plan at the end of 1x04, which is the domino that starts all this, right? Closer, but still no.

Izzy's first appearance on screen is in episode 1x02, and that episode is where the seeds of the Navy plot are first planted. See, during Stede's confrontation with Izzy, both of the hostages chime in:

Hostage 1 (Wellington): "Believe him, he's quite insane." Hostage 2 (Hornberry): "He does have the eyes of a madman. Sorry, you do."

Wellington says his line in a tone of voice that clearly indicates a story to tell, and it should also be noted that he is the same one who earlier jumped at the chance to tell the tribe chief about Stede murdering their captain - Nigel. And he's the one that Izzy leaves with, in a sour mood and wanting information about this "Stede Bonnet" character.

When Izzy later reaches out to the Navy, it's no coincidence that he finds Chauncey. He's known since right after their first meeting that Stede was directly responsible for the murder of an Admiral's brother and that the English Navy would know soon enough, since he was literally about to ransom a hostage back to them who would tell the story. And he filed that information away until it was useful or relevant like a clever pirate should.

Moving on to Jackie's bar in 1x03, Izzy gets more potentially useful observations / inspiration. Jackie is actually the first person in the series to make a deal with a naval power. Izzy and crew track the Revenge to the Spanish warship, which means they must see Geraldo sold out Stede to them. Izzy isn't stupid. He knows Geraldo and Spanish Jackie, knows that she's the brains and brawn behind this deal, and has seen enough of Stede that he'd absolutely believe that he did something to get Jackie pissed enough to plot his murder. File away Jackie wants Stede dead and details of how she nearly succeeded in offing him for later.

Izzy spends 1x05 up to the fuckery demonstration observing Stede's crew while waiting for Edward to pull the trigger. I definitely want to note the scene where they interrogate the Frenchman at the beginning of 1x05, because Izzy is staring directly at Stede as he leans away from Edward threatening violence (we know this will later be in his love montage so not actually a turn off, lol, but like... it looked like one). His opinion of the crew is that they like to fuck around without structure (1x05 during the party), probably that they enjoy more standard pirate levels of violence (not shown directly since they are kept out of the 1x05 raid, but fairly obvious), and that they are really easily awestruck by the chance to hear "real pirates" tell charismatic stories (1x06 ghost story).

Any of that sounding like someone we know?

And now to go back to Izzy in 1x06, when he gets sick of Edward being cagey about the plan to kill Stede and decides to "make" him stop stalling, he's straightforward again. Getting Ivan and Fang to back him isn't emotionally manipulative, but it does give him weight in the conversation. They are the ones who bring up the whole "love of a pet makes a man weak" thing, and they do it in the context of calling out hypocrisy. Izzy knows the standards Edward holds his crew to. He lets them convince Edward it's time.

Taking the chance to suggest Stede try a fuckery is a strong blend of situational and emotional manipulation, and later challenging him to a formal duel knowing he'd be overconfident enough to accept is more situational again. Even the terms of the duel are designed to take advantage of the situation. And then Izzy loses in the most comedy way possible, Edward lets him get banished, and Izzy decides that if he was ok with just sending Stede Bonnet on his way to fuck-off before... he's fucking gonna kill him now.

My guy is not a creative thinker, but he's definitely a logistical one. And as he rows away from that ship, all the pieces fall into place.

First, Spanish Jackie. Who listens to him bemoan his relationship woes because she likes him (Izzy gets Jackie in the divorce). Who wants Stede dead and has the clout to summon and deal with a distasteful ally - Chauncey. Together, they concoct an arrangement where a trap will be set and Chauncey gets Stede and only Stede. This isn't a tip-off or a free-for-all. Stede comes from Chauncey's world and they are sending him back. Permanently.

Then it's time for the trap itself, which needs to do two things: get the Revenge somewhere that Chauncey can corner it, and get Edward out of there. And Izzy? Izzy knows Edward. Knows there's one particular person in his past that will have no trouble integrating with the crew, getting Edward to act more like a pirate than a gentleman, and who happens to have a great ambush location on hand.

I've said this before but I'm gonna say it again - I don't think outside characters realize how hard and fast Edward is falling for Stede. The BlackBonnet bonding moments happen almost exclusively when they are alone. The place Izzy dramatically fails to manipulate the situation is not having the evidence he would need to predict Edward going back for Stede. He (and Jack) both think that a precise wedge between BlackBonnet - one that Jack delivers near flawlessly by playing into real issues - will be enough to remind Edward that Stede isn't his people. This isn't a plan to murder the love of Edward's life while his back is turned. It's a plan to get rid of Stede, and remind Edward why he was on board with doing that in the first place. "That's fair," Izzy says about a punch to the face.

Instead, Izzy's plot accidentally backs Edward into a corner and forces him to publicly pull a grand-gesture relationship level-up that he was not emotionally ready for, and the fallout from that explosion is way worse than any of our conspirators were counting on.

Still... you gotta admit. It was a really good plan.

[goatbeard-goatbeard]

Crowley has something no other demons have, especially not Hastur: an imagination. Right now, he is imagining that he is just fine, and that a ton of burning metal, rubber, and leather is a fully functioning car. He had started the journey in his Bentley, and he was damned if he wasn’t going to finish it in the Bentley as well.

You are my car

I’ve had you from new

You are not going to-

[biceratops7]

So here’s the thing,

Being visibly queer to the point of ostracism is historically synonymous with gender nonconformity and I don’t think that’s a conversation some are ready to have.

Gender nonconformity as it pertains to Stede is a hot button topic of debate in the fandom rn, and I love that! So much! Queer theory shit is in right now? Sign me tf up! But I see a lot of posts answering “no” to “does Stede wear feminine clothing?” as if it’s the same question. It’s also being talked about as a binary “to be” or “not to be” as if gender nonconformity is not a concept experienced on a spectrum.

Even if Stede’s clothing can be considered reasonably “masculine” with all the anachronisms, picking flowers, not being able to stomach a “man’s” job, and wearing robes that cause other characters to misgender him are harder sells. The number one thing I see the “Stede is NOT gnc” side say is that these things are only associated with femininity if you’re seeing them from a stereotypical lense. And well… yah. Gender nonconformity is a social construct. That’s what a social construct is. Enjoying bright colors, preferring non-confrontational solutions, wearing a skirt, having long hair, these are all things that are not biologically innate to women. They’re extra characteristics our society uses to construct the idea of a woman. That’s also why gender nonconformity hinges on the cultural context as well. Different societies, different rules.

In order to understand where people are coming from when they say Stede is gnc and use the queerphobia he experiences as evidence, you have to look at the metaphysics. What is homophobia in its original form? What is it made of? I’d argue it’s purest components are the fear that the divides between men and women will break down. It’s considered “an abomination” because sleeping with a man is seen as the natural duty of a woman, and for women, sleeping with a man. Beyond that, all of the baggage that comes with those extra characteristics I mentioned follows suit. Lesbians were by and large excluded from womanhood, in some points of history specifically bottoming was illegal because it was “placing yourself in a woman’s position”, etc.

And that’s not to say masc gay men don’t experience homophobia, they absolutely do. I’m just saying if Stede is experiencing specifically the same bigotry as non-passing queer people do in the form of being excluded from his own gender and even from others in his group, then I don’t think he’s one of those men.

Honestly a thousand kudos to @eluciferate for already bringing Albert from “The Birdcage” to the conversation. Cause he really is the perfect example of not only gender nonconformity beyond the literal surface, but the fact that for many it’s a state of being rather than a conscious choice of queer empowerment. When Albert’s son brings home a girl with very conservative parents, and Albert attempts to “play straight” for his sake… he can’t do it. Even in ultra masculine clothes and trying his best, the nonconformity shines through like toes poking out of old shoes.

Fuck, Stede wasn’t kidding when he said he was “uncomfortable in a married state”. Even the way he carries himself back home looks carefully minded, like his whole life is a play he was horribly miscast for. In other words sometimes you didn’t purposely decide to stick it to the heteronormative man. Sometimes with great gayness comes great responsibility and that’s that.

Jokes aside, we can nickel and dime all his frilly little affects all we want, but at the end of the day Stede is gender nonconforming in a way that goes beyond aesthetic. And I think a lot of people may be hesitant to read him this way because it requires you to acknowledge homophobia in the show, that Stede’s queerness is commented on and something he actively has to mind before even knowing what it is.

[onehundredandeleventropicalfish]

so in most ways, the game in hell in 1x04 is (at least in my opinion), a vast improvement on the comics, it adds so much extra drama and interesting character moments and it looks so much cooler and i love it

(also, for context, dream played against choronzon in the comics, not lucifer, which is another point in the show's favour, that was way more interesting)

but the downside of seeing it in tv form, is we don't get dream's inner monologue during it

and there's two moments specifically that stand out to me

one is this elaboration of the rules

and then the second is this, in between the butcher bacterium move and i am a world

and i wish we'd gotten that in some way, because it says so much about dream

because like. he knows, going into hell, that he lacks the strength to properly fight anyone. he puts on a brave face with it, but even when faced with the prospect of fighting choronzon, let alone lucifer, we get this bit of inner monologue

and he certainly makes his best attempt. but even if he was at full strength, lucifer making the first move set the battle as a test of violence. and dream may be the king of nightmares, he's no stranger to violence, but against lucifer? against the being that has personally overseen every kind of violence since very near the dawn of time?

and lucifer isn't playing fair, either. dream plays moves of strength, of physical might, he is a hunter, he is a bird of prey - cunning and clever predators, to be sure, both are creatures of precision rather than brute force, but they are honest and straightforward in their intentions. lucifer plays the serpent that you don't notice until it's too late, with a venom that will kill you in a single bite, plays an enemy too small to see but that will eat away at your flesh and render you incapable of even trying again. and dream could keep bringing bigger and bigger enemies, but everything has a weakness, and lucifer is oh so practiced at finding it

if he keeps playing to lucifer's strengths, trying to win this fight with violence, he's gonna be on the back foot the whole way, fighting to keep up, and eventually that won't be enough

however, as dream says, being physically unable to make your next move is only one way to lose the game. you also lose if you're too scared to keep going, or if you can't think of a counter quick enough. he doesn't have to play to lucifer's strengths, of killing your opponent, he can play to his own.

i think i will abandon the offensive.

and dream, for all he struggles with his own depression, and often needs reminding to hope for his own future, he is still made of dreams. he believes in people, and their hopes for a better world. we see that in his speech to john dee in episode 5, dreams aren't about lies, they're about potential. imagination, creativity, kindness, hope. the endless are all keepers of their opposite as well as their aspect, and in the same way death has power over life, dreams have power over reality. if you can imagine your better world, you can make it.

even nightmares are only temporary, but hell is eternal. lucifer could imagine a hundred thousand better ways to be violent than he could. but they can't use that to counter warmth and kindness and hope, because if violence could truly kill dreams, it would have.

and that turns the entire game around. suddenly lucifer's on the back foot, because it's not a test of strength anymore. a planet isn't going up against anyone in a cage match, a planet is here to support life. all dream has to do to win is survive, while lucifer has to come up with greater and greater, impossibly enormous threats, just to keep playing. even when lucifer's sure they won, they don't ask "what could destroy the anti-life", they ask what could survive it

and the truth intrinsic to dream's being is that in the end, hope will survive anything

[boylikeanangel]

ok yknow what else. I am so glad they're acknowledging the 180. I haven't really voiced this cuz I was otherwise so excited for this season but I really was on the verge of indignation about them just deciding to make gabriel a goofy sidekick after he was literally the biggest villain of season 1. it really felt like they weren't willing to acknowledge just how much pain he's actually caused aziraphale and crowley and, to be honest, it seemed a little out of the blue that aziraphale would try to help him. but no. they're actually talking about it. it's a central point of conflict for them that crowley rightfully wants nothing to do with this because it's GABRIEL, he tried to kill aziraphale, he's still understandably terrified that heaven will try to hurt him again, and now he wants this guy nowhere near either of them, and cannot understand why aziraphale would have him in his bookship after what he's done. and as for why aziraphale wants to help him, that seems like it's actually going to be explored rather than just accepted for the sake of the plot moving forward. not only have they not forgotten just what gabriel did or tried to do last season, they're placing that lasting fear and apprehension towards him front and centre and are going to have aziraphale and crowley conflict over whether or not he deserves their help. I'm honestly so relieved because I had always been staunchly anti-gabriel and never really enjoyed the fandom's overly jovial attitude towards him, and was genuinely really skeptical when it seemed they were going to make him a sympathetic character in the new season, especially since the trailer played the comedic angle for all it was worth. but it's not just absurdity for absurdity's sake. it's actually something for our main couple to work through. the writing knows this is a difficult shift in dynamic to contend with. and they're directly employing it as an obstacle for aziraphale and crowley. it's really good and it's put a lot of my worries about the overall tone and messaging of this season to rest

[raayllum]

so it's possible the design just changed (it's been four seasons in between scenes) / it's not that deep but

I had assumed that the jar of spiders Rayla accidentally broke had just been emberback spiders, like the one that Claudia had used to light the funeral pyre back in 1x04

However when you zoom in and actually compare the shape, the spiders in 5x02 look totally different (while still being black and red)

They're less triangular in their patterns, have more red (in the back and along the legs in particular), have hollowed out markings (not fully coloured in ones like the emberback) and do not have the white/grey backing either.

So like - are these Starweaver spiders (and was Kpp'Ar looking into them before he was coined)?

[m4ndysk4nkovich]

“debbie was doomed when frank broke her project”

debbie was doomed when her family ignored her in the fourth episode, so she literally stole a baby to make people pay attention to her, and it worked. if you’re so deprived of the love and attention you need and deserve that you have to make a scene to get it, of course that’s what you’re going to do, of course, in season four, she starts acting out because ian ran away, lip’s in college, and fiona has a job and is gone a lot. she’s getting no attention so she’s doing what she learned works, making a scene and drawing attention to herself.

[gnnosis]

“i forgive you” + little women (2019)

if you think about it. if you think about the parallel to 1x04. “how could someone as clever as you be so stupid?” “i forgive you.”

[ gif credit @tonystar ]

if you watch this scene. specifically the Face Journey aziraphale goes through before saying he forgives crowley. the Face Journey says that was mean. that was uncalled for. i know you didn’t mean it like that, but it hurt me. what he chooses to say is “i forgive you.”

and if you think about The Scene. “you idiot. we could have been… us.” “i forgive you.”

[ gif credit @scruffyobiwan ]

in 1x04, it’s crowley’s line, then aziraphale’s right after. in 2x06, it’s crowley’s line, then the kiss, THEN aziraphale’s— so it leaves us going “is he forgiving the kiss? the love? the rejection? the ‘idiot’ (in a nice parallel to ‘so stupid’)?” something very interesting is going on there as many people have pointed out, and as neil has said the ambiguity is intentional….. i don’t feel like anyone has 100% determined what the “real” meaning is (if such a thing exists).

the Face Journey aziraphale has here is very different than in 1x04…. the kiss, obviously, changes things. but really…. it’s not so different. that was mean. that was inappropriate timing. i know you didn’t mean it like that, but it hurt me. “i forgive you.”

all i know is i cant stop thinking about how much it reminds me of THIS.

[ gif credit @thatonekimgirl ]

“no, laurie, you’re being mean.”

amy’s choosing fred. it’s convenience. it’s expected. it’s practical, he’s wealthy. it’s not what she wants. laurie offers her another option. she turns him down. she doesn’t just turn him down— she says “no, laurie— you’re being mean. stop it, stop it.” she says “i will not be the person you settle for…not when i’ve spent my whole life loving you.”

it’s not 1-to-1 — crowley isn’t “settling,” he’s confessing a LOOOONGstanding reality. aziraphale isn’t second choice to an equivalent jo march.

but the situation. “you can’t leave me this bookshop” and “don’t marry him.” “i forgive you” and “you’re being mean.”

if you think about it. what aziraphale isn’t saying about the kiss is why now. why like this. why when i’ve just had to make this choice, when i’ve been offered this opportunity, when (maybe, if you believe some of the theories out there) i’m protecting you from something worse than you can even imagine. when at least, if i have to go, i’m offering you a place by my side. “i need you!” it’s now, after 6000 millions of years that he’s choosing to confess? to bring physicality into their relationship? no, crowley — you’re being mean. stop it, stop it.

what he says is “i forgive you.”

[beyonddarkness]

Means of Mastery

(Sauron's Influence in Off-screen Meetings)

I'm in the process of outlining all of this on the blog (yes, chapter 6), so this is relatively short. But I just realized something that I NEED to get off my chest, even if you don't have the full context yet. I've been plunking the same note on the keyboard for months now (that Sauron is scary, and not to be trifled with), but this one little aspect proves my point.

Sure, it may seem like everything just magically fell into Sauron's lap, but if you really think about it, he has always been in the background. He wasn't just sitting in his chair, waiting for Galadriel to do everything for him, crossing his fingers, hoping that by chance, he would automatically be pushed to the top of the power pole. Here is the little indication:

We saw many secret councils between those in positions of power, involving Celebrimbor, Elrond, Galadriel, Gil-galad, Míriel, Elendil, Pharazôn, etc. All of these councils were important, and led to important decisions being made.

But out of ALL the planned secret meetings that were mentioned, there were only two that we did not see. These two meetings had the most significant results.

But first, for a little context...

Fear of the Eldar and the Edain

When Gil-galad showed Elrond the decay of the Great Tree, he said:

"We first took notice of it just prior to Galadriel's return. We thought that by sending her away, and so bringing an end to the last vestiges of war, that we might arrest the decay. But despite our every effort, our decline has only quickened." (1x05).

Earlier, he said:

"We foresaw that if [Galadriel's search had continued], she might have inadvertently kept alive the very evil she sought to defeat" (1x01).

How did they foresee?

What is this random dish of water by the Tree?

...isn't there someone who knows how to manipulate such things?

-------------------------------

When Galadriel asked Míriel why she was not faithful to the Elvish ways, Míriel informed her of the recent rebellion in Númenor. After Galadriel foresaw Númenor's future, the following exchange ensued:

Míriel: "It is Númenor's future you saw. [...] It has already come to pass. The vision begins with your arrival. [...] The Valar gifted us this isle in a day of virtue. They can take it away, should we turn to the paths of darkness." Galadriel: "The virtue you speak of was your ancestors' loyalty to the Elves!" Míriel: "My father believed that. His path nearly destroyed us! That is why tomorrow, I will announce that you are gone, and this crisis ended" (1x04).

How did they foresee?

What is this random ball they call a Palantir?

...isn't there someone who knows how to manipulate such things?

(sidenote: It is interesting how everyone believes that sending Galadriel away will solve all of their problems.)

What is the common fear between Elves and Men?—Extinction.

Now, let's get to the point:

-------------------------------

Unseen Meetings

Everyone knows this:

"In an instance like this, it seems to me that you'd do well to identify what it is that your opponent most fears. [...] Give them a means of mastering it, so that you can master them" (Sauron, 1x04).

Is it really a coincidence that the only two meetings that we did not see were the two meetings that made Sauron rise to the top? Why are they the only two meetings in which "a means of mastering" the fear of Elves and Men was given? Why are these meetings the ones we DIDN'T SEE?

-------------------------------

Lindon

The first meeting that was mentioned was the one that Elrond was not permitted to attend.

"The Council regrets to inform you, you won't be permitted to attend the next session. Elf-lords only" (Elf-maid, 1x01).

This meeting involved Celebrimbor, Gil-galad, and other Elf-lords. Presumably, it was here that the song of The Roots of Hithaeglir was discussed. Mithril was suddenly brought into the picture, and Celebrimbor (an artificer, who heals) proposed a Forge, powerful enough to handle crafting the sort of power they needed to survive.

Why does all of this sound like Sauron's intriguing suggestions (mithril being the means of mastering their fear, so that he can master them)? How could mithril be a means of mastery given by Sauron, if he was not in attendance?

He would not have to be physically present in order to have an influence. Recall that 'random dish of water' by the Great Tree.

Here was the ultimate result of that meeting:

-------------------------------

Númenor

The second Unseen Meeting was first mentioned by Míriel, who was particularly intent on Sauron's attendance:

"This council will reconvene at first light to make a final decision. See to it Lord Halbrand attends" (1x05).

Galadriel informed him:

"Tomorrow, the Queen will call you to audience. Your voice at that meeting may well decide whether this mission stands or falls. Help me" (1x05).

The meeting involved Míriel, Galadriel, Sauron, Elendil, and Pharazôn. What did Sauron say to convince Míriel to save the Men of Middle-earth? Perhaps there is a hint in her conversation with Bronwyn.

Bronwyn: "What I owe you. My people are alive because of you." Míriel: "As I understand it, they are alive because of you." Bronwyn: "A burden I never sought to take up." Míriel: "Few of the finest leaders do. [sees Halbrand approaching] But if you would like some relief in carrying it, I may be able to help." Sauron: "You called for me, Your Majesty."

What was the means of mastering her fear? Galadriel gave it when she said, "Choose not the path of fear, but that of faith." This is probably why Sauron corrected Galadriel in the end: "You convinced her. I wanted to remain in Númenor." All Sauron had to do was reenforce that idea to Míriel with flattering words.

So, if we just change some names around in the above dialogue, the following exchange seems very plausible:

Míriel: "Your people will live because of you." Halbrand: "As I understand it, they will live because of you." Míriel: "A burden I never sought to take up." Halbrand: "Few of the finest leaders do. [pause] But if you would like some relief in carrying it, I may be able to help."

In any case, here was the result of that meeting:

-------------------------------

Here's a funny sidenote:

That means of mastery may have been aimed at Míriel, who was afraid of the kind of death that comes with the Fall of Númenor. But we know that all of the Kingsmen become increasingly afraid of their mortality, and the means of mastery that Sauron gives is a bit dismal:

"[...] Darkness alone is worshipful, and the Lord thereof may yet make other worlds to be gifts to those that serve him, so that the increase of their power shall find no end. [...] he that is their master shall yet prevail, and he will deliver you from this phantom; and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they" (Akallabêth).

[wigglebox]

Queer? In my John Winchester?

It’s more likely than you think! 

Sorry — but not really. 

So, it’s 2022, there’s a Supernatural show on, and I am sitting at my desk wondering how to actually start talking about a queer reading for a character that many don’t like the idea of being queer.

No I’m not talking about Dean Winchester — I’m talking about John. 

I remember waaaay back when in Ye Olden Times of June 2021 when the show’s script commitment was leaked, myself and a few others on Tumblr tossed around the idea of “Omg what if they make John queer, he’s in a relationship with another guy, and then heaven forces them apart because he has to be with Mary.”

And that wasn’t out of a desire to just have a slash ship. Those happen regardless, all the time, with little to no warning and little to no reason sometimes. Shipping happens. Shipping doesn’t have to be canon, doesn’t really have to make sense, and is a personal thing between you and your AO3 account. 

From my perspective, I had been wondering if they’d do it simply because the meta symbolism comparison — whatever — would be so great for Destiel and that ship’s journey. 

And, I still stand by that, and if anything, even more so now that I’ve had more time to think about it and see the characters on my screen. 

While watching 1x04 of The Winchesters, Masters of War, even mid-episode, Twitter and Tumblr and likely your Discord servers were all ablaze with “What was that look that John just gave Carlos in that uniform? Millie? What?” and especially after this tweet:

Just gonna do one of these while I’m at it: 

Anyway —

But for me, that wasn’t the only moment my brain starting firing when it came to the possibility of John and Carlos. 

First of all, since we know where John and Mary are eventually going to end up, this show can’t hurt me. I’m already expecting to be hurt. It’s not queerbaiting, it’s not anything like that. Also, especially now, very much not queerbaiting. Coding is not baiting. But regardless, I had gone into this show fully expecting to just start shipping everyone for everyone just because why not?

But after 1x04 I legitimately will be paying more attention to John/Carlos. 

For me, the most interesting thing about Destiel was that it kinda was born organically. Cas wasn’t meant to be a character that stuck around but the chemistry was too good to get rid of him, and the story just made sense with him there tbh. It was over the years and years that these two were on screen together in which it went from “Yay, a slash ship that’s not with his brother!” to “Oh my God are they going to make this canon? It makes the most sense!” 

The thing with Destiel is that since it was organic, it was born outside of the narrative. Cas was the first one to “make it up as we go,” he exists outside the narrative. 

The whole thing when it comes to Chuck Won theory for me is that Cas is a threat to Chuck because he exists outside of the narrative and kept trying to get Dean to go along with him — subconciously of course lol. [Side note, this is why I don’t believe Cas is in heaven, because if indeed Chuck won, Cas wouldn’t be there. Cas is ‘real’, he’s ‘truth’]. 

Destiel is a pairing, a love story, outside of the actual story while directly influencing the narrative that Chuck is trying to dole out to us. 

It was a brat, the suits/Chuck couldn’t control it, and once it started rolling down the hill, no one could stop it. 

Destiel was the character pairing that broke the narrative. 

Now, when it comes to The Winchesters, we have a bit of a thing going on here don’t we? We have four characers: Two young women, two young men. This is actually prime fodder for a shipping free for all. 

Carlos already expressed his once crush on Mary, Latika [to me at least] is kind of crushing on John, and John and Mary, we know, wind up together regardless. 

However — John and Mary are the narrative. That’s The Plan TM. That’s heaven’s outcome, that’s Chuck’s outcome, that’s the thing that needs to happen for the story to play out how they want it to. John and Mary don’t have a choice in this. 

But, they both still need a relationship outside of the narrative for contrast. 

The thing with Supernatural is that we never had Sam or Dean have ‘narrative compliant’ relationships. There was no need to have them hook up with someone to make children who are destined to bring about the apocalypse or whatever. That was all on them. That was supposed to end with Sam and Dean. 

But The Winchesters has a narrative couple, even if they don’t know it yet. For me, John and Mary still seem like just friends, they all do really, and while sometimes they’ll have talks in the van or heartfelt speeches to each other already with piano music softly playing overhead — it still doesn’t feel like romance. If anything, in 1x03 with John’s words about Mary and having to save her, it felt more like we’re inching more towards brother co-dependency than not. 

Since we have a narrative couple, and we already know what that is, we need a non-narrative couple. We need John and Mary to seek relationships with others, and probably get a little farther with it than just one date. We need something outside of the narrative that’s threatening to also take John and Mary along as well. John and Mary need their Cas, because they certainnly aren’t Dean and Cas to each other. 

“But Jen, why not just have John with Latika?” 

Because I said so! No, just kidding, because Carlos makes more sense to me in this case. 

It’s been clear to a lot of us watching that Carlos really captures the attitude and spirit of early seasons Dean. A little over confident, likely compensating for something. Withholding emotional stuff, maybe a little cavelier in his love life, and hell we even got a “why does paper even beat a rock” reference in 1x04. 

But in 1x04, it feels like Carlos was also set up with Cas parallels. 

Carlos was in the Navy, he was in the service, just like John. Dean and Cas were also ordered basically to “fight” by their fathers, and were essentially soldiers of their own corners of the narrative. 

But, Carlos isn’t a soldier. He’s a medic. He’s a healer. First thing I thought of was “Oh, Cas healed people and Dean all the time.” That’s one of the things I associate with Cas a lot is just healing, both physical wounds and emotional ones. 

I find it interestingly fasincating that Carlos was put in contrast to John like this. Dean and Cas to me were on the same level whereas Carlos felt like almost the polar opposite to John. He didn’t illegally sign up for the war while underaged, he wasn’t really looking for a fight, and he did none of the fighting but instead helped those who were wounded in the fighting. Whereas John entered the war underaged, was a Marine, and likely saw so many atrocities unfold before him including the death of his friend Murphy. 

The Destiel parallels didn’t end there for me. 

It seems like we’re test driving John with the different characters. He’s with Mary, alone. Then he’s with Latika, alone. And now he’s with Carlos for most of the episode, alone. So it feels like it’s almost like I’m watching The Bachelor lol. You have the winner who was engineered by producers to be the pick at the end of the competition [Mary], the one who actually was in it to find love with the Bachelor [Latika] and the one that the Bachelor actually fell in love with [Carlos]. 

[I’ve never seen this show lmao I’m actually modeling this off of Flavor Of Love but shh don’t tell anyone]

Obviously, my saying John is in love with Carlos is literally just me saying that. Literally no proof of that right now. I’m just saying if we’re going to throw some tropes in there, that’s where I’d slot him in. 

So getting back to Destiel parallels — I found the jungle space that John and Carlos wound up in so interesting. It really reminded me of Purgaytory. Yes I’m spelling it that way. 

When Carlos stepped on the mine and said John’s name like that, like Murphy did but also just like that, idk. Struck something in me. But I also found it interesting that he was in there at all. All the other people that this god killed were on their own. But now it’s both Carlos and John, and the god is using Carlos to try and like, convince John to do what it wants John to do. 

Obviously, we know that despite his claims otherwise, John did wind up doing what the god wanted him to do and did in fact kinda give into his inner demons, which we saw play out the entire episode as John struggled hard. 

For me, John needs someone who’s going to tempt him away from the narrative, away from going down this bad path of running instead of confronting his inner demons, and away from the narrative pairing that will eventually be with Mary. He needs someone who will help steer him away from all of this, because the narrative has to have something to rip away from him. And progress would be that thing that the narrative strips away. 

And to me, yes I wouldn’t mind it being Latika either but I’m aligning her more with Mary at the moment. So for me, it’d be Carlos. Another ‘brother in arms’ [see what I did there], someone who does understand the trauma of seeing what he saw, and experienced more or less what he experienced. Someone who is that beacon of hope and light [even though I’m sure Carlos has his own issues obviously] that would make John want to confront his issues intead of run from them. 

So, when I see fun Destiel parallels to John and Carlos I like them, but I’m also thinking about the meta narrative implications of this. A queer ship, for outside of the narrative, that will wind up getting the axe in order to serve the narrative. Because isn’t that what happened with Destiel, and Dean’s right to reciprocate being taken away from him [literally. the final monsters ripped people’s tongues out and he never said Cas’ name after that phone call in 15x19]. 

To mark a full tragedy and degradation of John Winchester, it’d be great to me anyway if they do the same with him. 

Now —

I know post-episode there were some loud dissenters and those who aren’t happy about this concept that John could be queer, especially if it’s more upfront about it than Dean ever truly got a chance to do. 

And for that, I understand, however I’m choosing to view this as a good thing because if they can slap on as many callbacks to Destiel as they can with these two, but knowing that with these two it’s going to fail while with Destiel more or less succeeded*, I’m choosing to call a win a win. I also don’t believe symbolism, meta, and story for The Winchesters should be sacrificed because of decisions made for a separate show that began in 2005 and tried its hardest to deliver undeniably queer Dean in its 15 year long run. 

*Dean never go to say I Love You back, however I’m a continuation believer, and I also think the metaphorical silence was pretty loud.

A lot of folks choose to see adult John as homophobic, a headcanon/fanon trait that I can 100% understand where folks come from. However it’s not canon that he is, and it’s never been implied in the show either. Therefore, I feel like that point of debate is one I don’t really take all that seriously, because it’s someone’s personal reading of a character, and not tangible canon. 

A queer John Winchester would I think give us the chance to add more fuel to the Destiel fire, while also giving us the chance to grieve a love story that could have been, and grieve a person that John could have been instead of the one that he became. Queer people aren’t always good, kind, reasonable, and understanding. Sometimes they can, indeed, grow into being terrible people. 

The Winchesters is ultimately a tragedy. No one is going to win at the end of the day. It’s like watching a run away train and being unable to stop the characters from making the choices that we know will lead them not to safety but to mortal danger. 

But if they can give us peeks into what could have been, that’ll make it so much more tragic in a way that really resonates with us. 

[sofoulandfairaday]

HOTD 1X04

Sooo... Otto is a dick and there's no question about that. However, it is ironic that he gets sacked for the only thing he actually did correctly and in the service of the realm lmao. I mean, it doesn't really matter if it benefits him or not, a good hand should have told the king if the princess was sneaking off to brothels in the middle of the night. Anyways, good riddance.

Alicent is probably my favourite out of all of them (and has the best outfits and hair, there's no question about that). I loved how she tried to make amends with Rhaenyra, and how she defended her, even last episode I felt that Rhaenyra is the one who mistreats her most of the time.

I also adored the exploration of female sexuality in this episode and all the talk about female pleasure - the juxtaposition between Alicent laying under Viserys and Rhaenyra taking charge not once but twice was masterful.

As for Daemon. I love daemyra, I find their dynamics to be fascinating, however, let's not pretend that Daemon is a good person in this episode. As they say in the Inside the episode (which is a super recommended watch for everyone!), Daemon is seducing his niece to get back at his brother and try to put his hands on the throne. He takes her to a place he knows she will be out of her depth and expects her to be shocked and passive. When she is actually excited and involved, when she takes charge, suddenly he can't perform anymore. This is not healthy behaviour at all. The most fascinating thing about them, though, is that beneath the second motives and their individual ambitions, I believe they are the only people in the world who truly understand the other. They have a deep bond and incredible sexual chemistry.

Also, while I did not approve of it in episode 2, now Rhaenyra is a woman and she is more than fit to take charge of her own body and pleasure, as this episode wanted to highlight. I think it also set up the falling out with Criston (btw, the shot of him looking at his white cloak with doubt was amazing) and the relationship with sir Strong.

My prediction is that Rhaenyra likes Criston, but probably not as much as he likes her and when she replaces him with Strong he'll be furious that the woman he broke his vows for could toss him aside.

I can't wait for the next one!

[ladyluscinia]

I do think the way in which Edward is fucking with everyone in Discomfort in a Married State is soooo fascinating.

Like going into this episode he's bored as fuck, yeah, but also Izzy has presumably been building up to this "you're a shell of man posing as Blackbeard" explosion for a while, and Stede told him to "go suck eggs in hell" (directly, Edward thinks; accidentally in reality) which intrigued him but is still, you know, massively disrespectful. It would make sense if he's kind of irritated with both of them?

Not really irritated - not to a lashing out or getting angry level - because Stede is novel and interesting, and Izzy is his First Mate complaining about a real dysfunction they're having. But maybe feeling a little inclined to fuck with them and remind them why they should respect him as Blackbeard?

I actually think that might be where his whole "save the day after making everyone think they're gonna die" bit comes from. He's noticed the clouds and started Lucius's countdown before Stede even wakes up, so he's already putting pressure on Izzy just to watch him squirm. Stede tells him about retirement and then wishes to be Blackbeard which probably sparks the clothes sharing as an idle "what if I really did trade lives with him?" (hello, kill Stede plan) thought, but he also uses it as a smooth way to drop the responsibility to save everyone on Stede this time.

He looks at Izzy and Stede and refuses to step up as "The Legendary Blackbeard", and then dares them both to fill his boots. He's making a point to both of them in that below decks confrontation - albeit one that hits a little closer to home on his stress burnout than he intends, I'll bet - and he's actively dramatizing them failing to measure up when the spotlight is on. "Death it is...... But wait-!"

(Edward voice) So what do you think the appropriate amount of gratitude and awe is when Blackbeard saves a whole ship without lifting a finger, hmmm???

...

...What do you mean it's September the 1st?

[bidonica]

Art in HotD - 1x04 “King of the Narrow Sea”

(more art in Westeros) - (more art in HotD)

I didn’t set out to do an episode by episode analysis, but it’s not my fault this show keeps giving me material, so,,, Also I’m sorry for not embedding the references in the post and linking them out instead, but Tumblr keeps a ten images limit per post and I’d rather anchor the commentary in screencaps.

The episode opens with a look at the inside of Storm’s End (which we never got a description of in the books because all the action happens outside). It’s very spartan and undecorated, which sort of tracks with the Baratheon vibe.

Back in King’s Landing, we get a shout out to the textile art of Qohor and Norvos, which shows that they really are doing their homework because the tapestries are only mentioned in passing in the books when describing the council room. Unfortunately we don’t get to actually see them because Viserys decides to be a dick about it to Alicent. Boo.

We get a good look at the fresco under the wisteria arbor in the godswood. It seems like another instance of Valyrian taste being inspired by Roman antiquity, as it’s reminiscent of Roman garden painting:

It seems to be a more naturalistic, loose style of painting compared to both the more archaic looking erotic art from inside the Keep and the “international Gothic” style painting behind Viserys in the previous episode. This decorative naturalism tracks with both the paintings we got from imperial Rome, and the Renaissance approach to landscape.

Are those braziers to the left here dragon shaped or griffin shaped? the way the wings are rendered makes me unsure, but I would actuaally love if - kind of like in the real Middle Ages - the heraldic representation of animals wasn’t entirely accurate (see also the Velaryon seahorse sigil). Or it might really be a griffin, a Connington gift or an Essosi import just like the aforementioned tapestries. I also wondered how many pieces on set were commissioned and how many bought ready made because they fit with the aesthetic.

The dragon in Rhaenyra’s room. At least she doesn’t get sex/fertility art in the room where she supposedly grew up. My immediate reaction to the picture, however, was to associate it with the erotic paintings because it’s sort of flat and the lines are bold, but it’s also very flowery and ornate in a way that I associate more with the hunt painting from episode three that I “dated” to Jaehaerys’ reign. On the other other hand, the fact that it hides/signals a secret passage makes me think this might also come from Maegor’s reign.

And now, on to the good stuff: the scene where Daemon is banished to the Vale by Viserys gives us a clear, well lit look at the columns in the throne room. Let’s rewind the tape for a moment: the Great Hall in GoT looked like this...

It makes sense that it looks different two centuries later, and it has become richer and more refined. It also makes sense that Robert’s regime would have tried to hide or destroy the Targaryen signifiers around the Keep as much as possible (though in the books it seems limited to Robert taking down the dragon skulls and no substantial structural change is mentioned). But I also think HotD is jumping at the chance to imbue its design choices with lore in a way that GoT never cared to do, so - besides having an Iron Throne that’s more in line with how it’s described in the books - it makes the throne room another celebration of the history of House Targaryen. And once again it does so by looking at Imperial Rome: enter Trajan’s Column.

Trajan’s column was a monumental column, and as such didn’t serve a structural purpose like the ones in the Great Hall, but like their obvious inspiration they seem to depict war scenes - if you enlarge the screenshots above you can see soldiers wearing helms, warriors on horseback, archers, and in the bottom frame of the column on the right what seems like a cluster of shields (maybe a callback to the testudo formation, also depicted on Trajan’s column?)

The middle row here is the most interesting because it seems to depict a dragon wing flying over soldiers, while a crowd overlooks the scene from a balustrade (possibly cheering for the dragon?). If we assume that these columns have been designed with the Roman blueprint in mind, the narrative should be continuous across the different rows, so it’s unlikely that this scene is the conclusion of a war as it’s in a middle row.

Hard to tell which war, though. The armors and weapons depicted are stylized enough that it’s difficult to date them or even place them geographically; these could be scenes from the Conquest (the first two Dornish wars?), or wars from Valyrian history. Either way, this version of the Great Hall has been designed so that people who enter it see not only grandiosity, but also a long and victorious history; makes sense especially because relatively to Westeros, Targaryens are *new* and foreign, even more so when the Keep was built. The decorations on this most public facing room establish loud and clear that the house of the dragon is strong and has a history, something the sometimes very old nobility of Westeros has got to respect - and fear.

[biceratops7]

More of the Stede having trauma reading:

Briefly adding on to this post, Stede likely wasn’t just abused interpersonally but also systemically as well.

The “Ecclesiastical Latin” bit was there to be funny, but it also serves the purpose of telling us that Stede has a religious background, and likely an intense one at that. You simply don’t become fluent in a language who’s only utility is to discuss Christian text otherwise. Other evidence for this is that he assumes he’s going to hell in episode 4, and that honestly given the time period it would be way weirder if he WASN’T born into religion. I’m more or less trying to argue his family may’ve been pretty hard core about it.

With the background knowledge of Stede being raised as a practicing Christian, all this talk of him “defiling beautiful things” and “bringing people to ruin” would definitely sound uncomfortably familiar.

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

The god of war places Carlos on a mine, making him unable to move or the mine will blow up and he dies. Carlos needs to stay still, cannot reach John and help him, cannot be there for John, stop him from giving in to anger and becoming a little more monstrous than he was.

Cas’ deal puts him on a metaphorical mine, making him unable to move or the empty will come and swallow him up and he dies. Cas needs to stay still inside a situation of emotional empasse. He cannot reach Dean emotionally, he cannot let Dean speak his own feelings (interrupting him in Purgatory) or open up about his own. He cannot heal their relationship, he needs to keep himself unhappy and that means keeping his relationship with Dean unfulfilled. And Cas keeping an emotional distance from Dean obviously doesn’t help Dean process his trauma and deal with his anger.

John defeats the god and Carlos is saved. Dean defeats God and...?

[goatbeard-goatbeard]

The Ineffable Plan is, of course, ineffable. But if you had to pick one interpretation,