#spnwin meta

[charcubed]

Hi. I tend to forget that tumblr exists and just shout all my thoughts about The Winchesters on Twitter @CharCubed, which is a problem, but for once in my life I'm posting something here!

Here are some broad Thoughts on where I've landed of what this season 1 finale of The Winchesters offered–

• I very much want season 2 of this show SO badly. I want to see how they all continue to build their lives now that we know tragedy need not be their end! THIS IS THE HEALING SHOW. That whole cast gets to write their own story... "the only thing that's worse than how it starts for a hunter is how it ends" is no longer the case, as Carlos already said... and Dean helped to free them? That fucks.

• In regards to those possibilities: now that Dean would no longer be framing the prequel as a story he's telling, it frees the prequel up to no longer be doubling as Dean's story through revealing mirroring–which is very much what it's been doing for 12 episodes. Now the monster plots and the storylines for those characters in The Winchesters can also be diversified, so every episode no longer has to include, for example... [checks notes] a situation where a character is literally and/or metaphorically trapped and has to confront their trauma, break cycles of violence, and speak truths to be freed. It's been very Loud and very much Like This Constantly because it's Dean's story, but now it won't have to be anymore, which is an interesting thing to contemplate! (To be clear, for those unaware of my history of yelling about this show: I love that it was Like This. This show is fucking genius.)

• Initially, this finale had some alarm bells pinging in my brain but then I parsed the Reasons for those things. Mary told John she had "Something to say," right? And then she never says it. That's a Chekhov's gun that's never fired and it's of course paralleling how Dean has "something to say" to Cas too. Them not speaking that truth is a problem. In addition, we also got a montage eerily akin to the 15x19 one. But these callbacks / parallels to s15 all loudly indicate something very specific: The Winchesters is an unfinished story, and this finale (like the rest of this show) is mirroring and revealing truths about the prime narrative of SPN. For one thing, with the prequel they originally expected to have 22 or so episodes and ended up having 13 to work with. For another... this is the START of their story, not the end. So along those lines, what can we deduce about the end of season 15? (Hint: that finale is not an ending either.)

• Speaking of which: We learn that everything Dean was just doing takes place in the ~heavenly~ time period before Sam “dies." This all functionally happened right after Dean died as he drove down that road. He is restless, unmoored, grieving, and–this is key–considers his "ending" to be an unhappy happy one. He's fucking around and finding out, looking for and unpacking (through his narration) what he needs and wants for HIS happy ending to look like. He found out about the Akrida being a failsafe from Chuck and couldn't resist meddling to save everyone. It's also worth noting that Dean says to Jack something like, "If you have to kick me out of Heaven then that's fine." Between the lines is the thought of "please kick me out of Heaven, I'm causing problems because I'm grieving and I'm not done, I don't want this 'peace' but would rather have freedom." That in itself is a massive subversion of the SPN finale, to say nothing of the previous 12 episodes we've received.

Anyway. So in terms of Dean's story, we now know that this all takes place smack in the middle of 15x20 timeline-wise. This checks out because Bobby's presence connects to him being the only one we saw in 15x20. And... what I personally consider to be Jack's incredibly fucked up or ~potentially taken over by Chuck~ vibes are, in that sense, consistent with 15x19 as well. (I'm so sorry but please let me drop this cursed "Alex Calvert playing Chuck" joke by Jensen from August 2022 which haunts me.)

So: nothing about the concept that @chuckwon at the end of season 15 has been confirmed or denied in canon at this point. The idea that Chuck LOST, as Dean says here, is simply what Dean may still be thinking (which makes sense). But nothing has fundamentally changed about the state of how season 15 left things in the prime narrative yet... largely because that's not what this story is / was about.

In terms of what this finale presented to us, I think "Chuck won" potential was all deliberately left open. And I continue to Call Bullshit on the finale accordingly. A Chuck won plot line COULD be used in a future sequel to great affect, or it could NOT be used in a future sequel. That will be totally up to the future authors / team behind that potential sequel to see what story they choose to tell, and where it all may or may not go. But until then (on that front) right now it's the same shit, different show, and deliberately literally nothing about that potential has changed.

• I LOVE all of the above now that I've parsed it all in my brain. It makes perfect sense. Much like we were never going see the gay angel pop up in this show and kiss Dean (with apologies to anyone who somehow thought otherwise?)... leaving other things open like this is fantastic and the objectively correct call. Dean's story is HIS story to be furthered elsewhere, whereas this show belonged and continues to belong to its cast of characters who must take center stage. But through this story within a story narrated by Dean himself, we learned a hell of a lot about his state of mind as it actively stands in 15x20. Or more accurately: the entire show reinforces and reiterates comprehensively and repeatedly that the SPN finale was wrong and bad and not the end of the story at all, and now canonically and openly and in no uncertain terms that that's how Dean feels too.

• AND THUS: season 1 of The Winchesters works as deeply clever and layered commentary on Supernatural's ending and presents the stepping stone for a sequel continuation for Dean and his family. It's also the beginning of a new chapter with endless potential for The Winchesters' cast of characters who are not tied to fate or main timeline.

I fucking love it here.

Truly, madly, deeply: ALL HAIL ROBBIE THOMPSON.

And seriously, I really hope we get a season 2 because I adore all of the prequel's characters on their own merit and I want to see what their story can become :')

[chuckwon]

The Winchesters: Look at this hunter who absorbed monster essence and got corrupted by it as part of Chuck’s fail safe. Also hmmmm here’s Jack who absorbed Chuck’s powers and… well he seems a little fucked up doesn’t he haha. Isn’t that interesting :)

I’m sure it’s nothing though! 👍🏻 Jack being new God is definitely fine! Yay Heaven ending! Something something they won and Dean is free, right?

[fandomtrashhh]

Updated for Episode 12

So I did a thing. I went back to every episode of The Winchesters and I wrote down everything that Dean has said so far, and I realized moreso than before how EVERYTHING he says not only is the lesson/theme of the episode, but it all also applies to himself. Also, I'm not sure if other people realize this because not everyone is into classic rock as I am, (many of the songs are rock songs) but all the songs also match what the episodes are about. Let's start with episode 1.

Sorry if I overlooked something or for any mistakes, I did not rewatch every episode to make this.

I also apologize for how long this is. If I knew how to add the "read more" on this post I totally would.

Major spoilers for all episodes of the Winchesters ahead!!!

Episode 1, "Pilot": March 3rd, 1972. The day Dad came home from the war, and the day he met Mom. Now I know this story might sound familiar, but I'm gonna put the pieces together in a way that just might surprise you. And in order to do that, I have to start all the way at the beginning.

Obviously, Dean is just starting the story. He tells us this is when John and Mary are going to meet, and he's also foreshadowing what's to come. This is why I have high hopes for this show, because Dean says so in the beginning that even though you think you might know everything, there's really more to the story.

Dean also narrated at the very end of the episode:

What they didn't know is that the Akrida weren't just a threat to Earth, but to all of existence. Now, like I told you, there's gonna be some surprises. Hell, I'm still trying to find all the puzzle pieces myself. But I'll explain everything. And until then, I'll keep picking the music.

Also something to note is that this is the only episode that has a non music related title. I'm 100% sure that if it did have a song related title, it would be "I'd Love to Change the World" by Ten Years After. The beginning, when Dean is first narrating and while John is holding the letter that Dean gave him and pretty much up to the point where John and Mary run into each other, that song is playing. Then at the very end of the episode, when we see Dean in the flesh, it's playing again. I find this VERY interesting, especially since the music applies to everything in this show. This leads me to believe that Dean really is trying to change something because the song literally says "I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do, so I'll leave it up to you." (The song also mentions bees, which I thought was interesting. That could be nothing, though.)

Episode 2 "Teach Your Children Well": The ties that bind a family together can be complicated. Parents raise you, teach you what's right and wrong, and in some instances, how to kill monsters. But no matter who you are, there comes a time when you have to break from them and make your own way. And if you're not careful, things can get pretty ugly.

“Teach Your Children Well” by Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. Let me show you some of the lyrics:

“You, who are on the road

Must have a code that you can live by

And so, become yourself

Because the past is just a goodbye

Teach your children well

Their father's hell did slowly go by

And feed them on your dreams

The one they pick's the one you'll know by

Don't you ever ask them, "Why?"

If they told you, you would cry

So just look at them and sigh

And know they love you”

A big theme in this episode is parents, the guy who goes missing at the beginning for one, but mostly about John’s parents. John and Millie argue over John hunting and all around the episode is about kids forging their own paths and how it can cause issues which I feel like can definitely apply to Dean and how he discovers his identity away from his father and how the things his father put them through were wrong and how that caused issues.

Episode 3 "You’re Lost Little Girl": There's no map to being a hunter. No playbook. You gotta follow your gut. But that can only take you so far. Truth is, you can't do it all on your own. You need other people to help guide the way-- your friends, your family. Otherwise you just end up lost.

“You’re Lost Little Girl” is by The Doors. Some lyrics:

“You're lost little girl

You're lost little girl

You're lost, tell me who

Are you?

Think that you know what to do

Impossible? Yes, but it's true

I think that you know what to do

Yeah

Sure that you know what to do”

In this episode, Mary gets taken by a monster and everyone is trying to find her. Mary thinks that she doesn’t need anyone to help her because she’s a good hunter, but she ends up needing them to save her. It’s the same with Dean, Dean is an amazing hunter, but he still needs his friends and his family.

Episode 4, "Masters of War": Fighting the battle between good and evil isn't easy, especially when the first monster you have to face is the one inside yourself.

“Masters of War” is by Bob Dylan.

The lyrics for this song are very meaningful and well done. To put it simply, it’s about war and criticism of war.

“You fasten all the triggers

For the others to fire

Then you sit back and watch

When the death count gets higher

You hide in your mansion

While the young people's blood

Flows out of their bodies

And is buried in the mud”

In this episode, John and Carlos talk about their trauma from the Vietnam War and we really get an insight to how much anger John has in him. John is Dean’s parallel in this episode because Dean has a lot of unresolved trauma and deep rooted anger that is mentioned in Supernatural and it also fits because Dean was used as a weapon in a war against the supernatural from a young age.

Episode 5, "Legacy of a Mind": Spending a lifetime of hunting monsters takes its toll. There comes a time when you gotta let out that pain inside you. If you don't, it'll eat you alive.

The song “Legacy of a Mind” is by The Moody Blues

“He'll fly his astral plane

Takes you trips around the bay

Brings you back the same day”

This can be applied to what happens in this episode where Mary is stuck in her own head and has to face her trauma, and this song pretty much talks about trippy things like the lyrics above.

This applies so well to the episode because this episode deals with the complicated relationship that Mary has with her parents and her dealing with the trauma she has with being trained to be a hunter from a very young age and how it was wrong of them to do that to her, but she still loves her parents. This also applies to Dean, since John taught him about hunting from a young age, the same way Samuel and Deanna did to Mary. Mary is once again the Dean parallel, like she often is in this show.

Episode 6 "Art of Dying": Hunting has a way of changing a person. After a while, right, wrong, good, evil, they all start to look the same. And then it makes you start to wonder, "Who's really the monster here -- them or me?"

This is the only other episode where Dean narrated at the end:

Hunting's not for everyone. You have to be strong, stay sharp, make tough decisions, and it's not easy, but then again, the righteous things never are.

The Art of Dying is by George Harrison:

"There'll come a time when all of us must leave here

Then nothing sister Mary can do

Will keep me here with you

As nothing in this life that I've been trying

Could equal or surpass the art of dying

Do you believe me?"

and then the end of the song goes:

"There'll come a time when most of us return here

Brought back by our desire to be

A perfect entity

Living through a million years of crying

Until you've realized the art of dying

Do you believe me?"

This episode the core four finds a case involving an older hunter buddy of Mary's and it turns out that the monster is the ghost of the hunter's friend who the hunter friend and her group killed because he went too dark in magic. That's how the episode applies to Dean's monologue, along with Lata's fear of turning into someone horrible and letting her anger control her. John also (kinda) confronts his anger in this episode. The monologue also talks about how being a hunter is hard, but doing the right thing never is, which also applies to the characters of this episode, especially Lata. This applies to Dean because he really dealt with feelings like that during SPN, and being angry all the time and feeling like he was a monster, and how he always chooses to do the right thing when it comes down to saving the world, even when it's near impossible to.

Episode 7 "Reflections": There comes a time in every hunt when the fightin' starts. And the difference between winning and losing isn't whether you have the holy water, the wooden stake, or the silver bullet. It's whether you've got the grit to get the job done.

Reflections is by the Supremes:

"Through the mirror of my mind

Through all these tears that I'm crying

Reflects a hurt I can't control

Although you're gone

I keep holding on

To those happy times

Oh, girl when you were mine

As I peer through the windows

Of lost time

Keeping looking over my yesterdays

And all the love I gave all in vain

(All the love) All the love

That I've wasted

(All the tears) All the tears

That I've tasted

All in vain

Through the hollow of my tears

I see a dream that's lost

From the hurt baby

That you have caused"

I think this one represents loss, especially the loss of Henry. Dean's monologue ties into this because in this episode there are multiple instances where the characters show real strength and bravery in order to come out the other side with a win. And this can obviously be applied to Dean and everything he has done and hunted and how brave he had to be to be able to actually get the job done.

Episode 8, "Hang on to Your Life”: Being a hunter, it means living a life of sacrifice-- not a lot of room for dreams. But if you open your heart and get a little lucky, you'll find you gain more than you lose.

Hang On To Your Life is by Guess Who:

“Thinking 'bout it's here and it's real

Wondering how I really should feel

Well you can sell your soul

But don't you sell it too cheap

Hang on to your life, oh life, oh life, oh life, oh life

Hang on to your life

Thinking 'bout betraying a friend

Thinking 'bout delaying the end

Well you can ride the wind

But don't you ride it too high”

This episode is about Carlos’ dream of being a musician and how he had to give that up when he became a hunter. The parts about selling his soul and betraying a friend applies to the band member that Carlos used to play with and how he accidentally made a deal and because he “betrayed” Carlos by selling him out to Loki.

Dean’s monologue applies to the theme of found family in this episode. Even though they’re all a part of this life and had to give up their dreams, there is good that came from it in the form of family and friends, the same way that Dean found himself a family in the midst of it all. This is also the episode where John and Mary decided to get together, again proving that they can find something worthwhile, right before they found the picture of Dean. (Insert Miranda Cosgrove meme)

Episode 9 "Cast Your Fate to the Wind": This isn't how I saw things going when I pushed over that first domino. Thing is, I've had more than a few dances with free will and fate, but as my dad used to say, "Fate is what you make it."

The song here is actually a song that I didn’t know. It’s a jazz song by Vince Guaraldi. Honestly, reading the lyrics to this song make me think SO MUCH of John and who he becomes, and I’m actually going to put in the entire lyrics because I can’t chose one section that I feel is most important:

“A month of nights, a year of days

Octobers drifting into Mays

I set my sail when the tide comes in

And I just cast my fate to the wind

I shift my course along the breeze

Won't sail up wind on memories

The empty sky is my best friend

And I just cast my fate to the wind

That time has a way of changing a man throughout the years

And now I’m rearranging my life through all my tears

Alone, alone, alone

There never was, there couldn't be

A place in time for men like me

Who'd drink the dark and laugh at day

And let their wildest dreams blow away

That time has a way of changing a man throughout the years

And now I’m rearranging my life through all my tears

Alone, alone, alone

So now I’m old, I’m wise, I’m smart

I’m just a man with half a heart

I wonder how it might have been

Had I not cast my fate to the wind

To the wind, to the wind”

Like, come on. This is so John coded in who he becomes and what happens to him. In terms of how this song applies to the episode though, it applies to the theme of fate throughout the episode, which ties in with what Dean says at the beginning. “Fate is what you make it.” This speaks true to John in this episode because he uses the knowledge of his death to his advantage and makes his own fate, which Millie uses the “fate is what you make it” line. I find this episode very interesting because they use the theme of fate in an episode that deals with vampires, and has a whole scene that parallels 15x18 AND Carlos gets to kiss his male love interest. Dean’s monologue at the beginning applies to himself because he’s dealt with fate and free will plenty of times in Supernatural.

I also find it interesting that Dean said that this isn't how he saw things going when he pushed over that first domino, which begs the question of what did he expect? What was his goal in doing all of this? It's also worth noting that immediately after he says that he says "fate is what you make it," saying the two apply to each other, go hand in hand. I don't think it's a stretch to say that whatever his intentions were, whatever he did, had to do with controlling his own fate.

So, just to recap: in an episode where the two main characters are dealing with being in a new relationship and whether or not they want to tell people, one of those main characters dies from a vampire in a direct parallel to the 15x18 confession, and two men have an on screen kiss for the first time, and the entire theme of the episode is fate. That's VERY interesting to me.

Episode 10 "Suspicious Minds": Hunting and happy endings don't usually mix, so when you get your chance, you got to ask yourself, "How far will I go to get it?"

This can be read as a direct tie in to his monologue in the last episode! It's along the same lines!!

Something I've noticed is that each episode I feel like the monologues get deeper and more meaningful, the farther we go the more is revealed.

This Dean monologue ends right as John and Mary get interrupted while they're kissing and Mary says "normal will have to wait another day" while there's a close up of Mary's college application as a mirror to SPN 15x20 with Dean's job application. Something I thought was interesting.

Suspicious Minds is an Elvis Presley song, which I know that the trend here is to include 60's and 70's songs, but knowing the intense meaning of Elvis in the Destiel fandom makes me feel a little unwell knowing Elvis actually gets incorporated into the text.

"Oh, let our love survive

I'll dry the tears from your eyes

Let's don't let a good thing die

When honey, you know I've never lied to you

Mmm, yeah, yeah

We're caught in a trap

I can't walk out

Because I love you too much, baby

Why can't you see

What you're doing to me

When you don't believe a word I say?"

So this is very much talking about one of the big plot points of this episode, a man who tries to bring his dead wife back to life in such desperation that he's willing to kill innocents to do it. Now the parallels drawn in this episode are very intentional to both John and Mary, even including the dialogue they speak after they kill said man and how John thinks that's love and Mary thinks it's horrible and she essentially makes him promise that that will never be them (clear foreshadowing) when in reality, even though it's showing that John already had the mindset of "doing it out of love" as he does in the future, they're both guilty of that. Mary brings John back to life when Azazel kills him, and as we all know, after Mary's death John goes on a revenge mission, wasting his life and putting his children through hell in the process. It's also just a running theme throughout SPN of toxic codependency and how almost every major character is also guilty of going to great lengths to bring the ones they love back. The song lyrics also apply to John and Mary as a romantic relationship as well and can show how their relationship is now and foreshadow what will happen in the future.

The thing that is different about this episode though, is that even though the parallels in this episode can apply to Dean, the actual Dean monologue doesn't, and this is what I find really weird and what I think is honestly one of the biggest indications that Jensen really is writing a fix it fanfiction:

This is the only episode where his monologue doesn't directly apply to himself. Every other episode ties in to his own experiences, except for this one. Dean doesn't go to great lengths to get himself a happy ending. Happy endings for other characters? Absolutely. But not for himself. Why would this be the only episode that doesn't directly relate to him? Well me and a lot of other people think because it really does apply to himself. But not as something he experienced in the past or has knowledge on, but as something he is doing right now. He is actively changing his future, possibly even a future with Cas (I do really think that there's a solid possibility that Destiel will become 100% canon in this show because of how everything is being set up, all of the parallels, and the fact that some of the cast, the social media team, and an executive producer has acknowledged some of these said parallels.) So in the end, how far will Dean go to get his happy ending?

Episode 11 "You've Got a Friend": Being a hunter means always being on the move. But no matter how hard you plan, no matter how hard you work, at a certain point, we all run out of road. It's what we do with those crossroads that define us.

"You've Got a Friend" is a song by Carole King from 1971:

"When you're down and troubled

And you need some lovin' care

And nothin', nothin' is goin' right

Close your eyes and think of me

And soon I will be there

To brighten up even your darkest night

You just call out my name

And you know, wherever I am

I'll come runnin'

To see you again

Winter, spring, summer or fall

All you have to do is call

And I'll be there

You've got a friend"

This represents Betty, and how in this episode she goes from being a potential source of trouble for the gang to becoming an ally, or a "friend" and an inside woman for them. This also can be applied to Carlos and Lata because Carlos was there for Lata and helped support her while Lata told Carlos about her childhood trauma.

In this episode, Dean's monologue is about the choices you make before you die. This can be seen in the choices made throughout this episode by multiple characters (Betty, Mary, John, etc) and this ties in with the song because no matter what choices you make, you'll have your friends by your side, which is true to Dean and just Supernatural as whole with their message of family and found family. Admittedly, I feel like the connection to Dean's voiceover and to the title of this episode aren't as strong as a lot of the previous episodes, but they're still there. (Betty, the "friend," makes a choice to work with the rest of the gang.) At the same time, I believe this can also be another instance of foreshadowing because Dean is dead, he's at that metaphorical cross road, and he's making a choice to go into the past.

As I said above, Lata faced her trauma. This is the 4th or 5th instance of someone on this show confronting their past. At this point, it's become a theme. Why would the show reiterate this point over and over? I think this will tie into Dean's reasons for why he's in the 70's. Not to mention this was yet ANOTHER episode where 2 characters are trapped in a room, and this time because of a shadow monster, and the only way to get out is if one confesses a deep secret. What the fuck.

Something to keep in mind is how much this episode emphasized secrets. This seems to foreshadow the fact that Dean is harboring some huge secrets that will soon be discovered. I think the real question now is how will these secrets be revealed to the audience and to our characters?

Episode 12 "The Tears of a Clown": Hunting is a dishonest business. You lie about who you are, and what you do. But the hardest lies aren't what you tell other people, but what you tell yourself."

The song "The Tears of a Clown" was released in 1967 by Smokey Robinson & The Miracles:

"Now if there's a smile on my face

It's only there trying to fool the public

But when it comes down to fooling you

Now honey that's quite a different subject

But don't let my glad expression

Give you the wrong impression

Really I'm sad, oh I'm sadder than sad

You're gone and I'm hurting so bad

Like a clown I appear to be glad (sad, sad, sad, sad)"

Okay, so this episode gave me a lot of brainrot. What the song is expressing is that even if you seem happy, that doesn't mean you are, and that was the big theme of this episode. Just because you seem okay or even think you're okay, that doesn't mean you are. With John, that applies to his anger issues and his unresolved issues with being charged for a murder he didn't commit. For Mary, it's the issues she already has, plus being unhappy in her relationship with John because she thinks he's using their relationship as an escape, and this also applies to her because even though she got accepted into college, she hadn't really taken any steps towards a normal life since then. In general, this episode was about a clown who lures emotionally vulnerable people into his circus tent so he can force them to be "happy" even though they aren't, like we saw with Roger.

This can very much apply to Dean's voice over, because the characters in this episode, including the clown, are actively lying to themselves.

The thing is, like a lot of Dean's voice overs, it's intentionally vague. He could be referring to literally anything. In the context of this episode, it makes the most sense that this is referring to Dean's anger issues and the fact that throughout the entirety of Supernatural, Dean oftentimes told himself and the people around him that he was okay, even though he wasn't. But at the same time, these voice overs and one like this in particular can be interpreted in different ways. What Dean says about facing the lies you tell yourself can apply to sexuality. Dean could be talking about not only his mental and emotional issues, but he could also be referencing being in love with Cas. At this point, Destiel happening feels like genuine build up. Now all we have to do is wait a couple more days to see if it all pays off.

[dotthings]

That's twice now, TW has John and Mary, or John, trapped in a room, facing impending death, and the crisis causes their barriers to fall and results in them kissing. That's twice now, they've shown us next step outcome for Dean and Cas that they were denied. That's twice now TW has recreated (with variations) the dungeon room scenario of 15.18.

It's almost like...the narrative is caught in a loop on it, can't let go of that moment in particular. Isn't that...interesting. It keeps coming back to that so specifically. It's really LOUD. Who is telling this story...who is caught on that moment and unfulfilled outcomes.

Why is Dean on the road in ep 1 of TW in his Purgatory II outfit.

Well, don't you know I'm caught in a trap? I can't walk out Because I love you too much, baby Well, don't you know I'm caught in a trap? I can't walk out Because I love you too much, baby

[quillquiver]

Have we talked about the fact that The Winchesters’ finale (1x13) is called Hey that’s no way to say goodbye in the context of the Leonard Cohen song of the same name? I’m not talking about the obvious reference to Dean in the song title here - which, like, it is Dean. It has to be. We don’t say goodbye to any of the other spnwin characters.

Bear with me for a second, because in a Dean-centric context, these lyrics are insane:

I loved you in the morning, our kisses deep and warm Your hair upon the pillow like a sleepy golden storm Yes, many loved before us, I know that we are not new In city and in forest they smiled like me and you But now it's come to distances and both of us must try Your eyes are soft with sorrow Hey, that's no way to say goodbye

I'm not looking for another as I wander in my time Walk me to the corner, our steps will always rhyme You know my love goes with you as your love stays with me It's just the way it changes, like the shoreline and the sea But let's not talk of love or chains and things we can't untie Your eyes are soft with sorrow Hey, that's no way to say goodbye

I loved you in the morning, our kisses deep and warm Your hair upon the pillow like a sleepy golden storm Yes, many loved before us, I know that we are not new In city and in forest they smiled like me and you But let's not talk of love or chains and things we can't untie Your eyes are soft with sorrow Hey, that's no way to say goodbye

Like, the ep title might not be referencing the song, or it might just be referencing the title and none of the other lyrics, but Supernatural has always been very particular about its musical choices and that’s always pertained to the whole song. Plus, Jensen in particular seemed very focused on the music for the prequel. So it kind of feels like these lyrics can be interpreted as attached to the episode and therefore to Dean? And like, it could just be about Dean, himself, with the audience meant to interpret that Dean is reclaiming that original goodbye in 15x20, but... this song is about separated lovers. Hm. Who else do we know that confessed his love to someone before becoming separated? 

This was an insane choice.

[angelsdean]

the more i think about bobby's involvement the more i'm thinking chuck won theories are still very much in play. like aside from that friggin' off-white chuck-style blazer (and the fact that it was the same costume person working on both shows) there is a HUGE bobby time-gap we need to talk about!!!!!!!

at the start of the episode we see bobby with dean at the bus depot when dean gives john the letter from henry. in the scene bobby says he's "going to get the cavalry" while he tells dean to keep an eye on what's going on in the winchesters world. then he disappears and dean goes on to spend the next few weeks ? months ? in this universe lurking around and helping the prequel squad fight the akrida.

THEN we see bobby return with notably not "the cavalry" but only jack. (jack-chuck. i am convinced). now sure, maybe heaven-time works different, (if we take that 15x20 montage at face value, 40 yrs was just a drive--but oh wait, that drive has now been retconned and completely thrown out !! and in the middle of it dean went on an adventure and saved the whole damn multiverse !!! hehe sorry i'm still so happy abt that huge fuck you to everyone who thought dean was nothing w/o his brother, just sitting around waiting for him)

anyways. so maaaaybe heaven-time works differently, but in all of spn prime we never really got much indication of that ?? they talked abt the time difference in hell, and there doesn't seem to be any sense of time in purgatory, but heaven? not so much is known abt time there. so, at least from our perspective, it took bobby several earth weeks or months to find anyone else in heaven or even just jack specifically if that's who he was originally looking for. that's pretty sus. it's making me think heaven is...empty. where is everyone else?

also from the way bobby phrased things in the opening scene, "one last hunt" and going to get "the cavalry" it really felt like bobby was going to get other people to help them in the fight against the akrida. and then he shows up with only jack, a long time later, to just....wrangle dean back to heaven? and then there was the way dean reacted when jack said it was time to go back. and the way he was so quick to say jack could kick him out of heaven for his meddling if he wanted to. and the way bobby looked at dean very intently as dean was told to finish what he started and return to heaven. bobby knows his boy. he knows dean's not gonna be done meddling, that dean isn't content with 'peace' in heaven.

just. something is still up! and i feel like it's all setting up perfectly for a continuation, either in the winchesters if it gets picked up for more, or in that spinoff / reboot / mini series they're always talking about. dean's story is so not over.

[wigglebox]

Queer? In my John Winchester?

It’s more likely than you think! 

Sorry — but not really. 

So, it’s 2022, there’s a Supernatural show on, and I am sitting at my desk wondering how to actually start talking about a queer reading for a character that many don’t like the idea of being queer.

No I’m not talking about Dean Winchester — I’m talking about John. 

I remember waaaay back when in Ye Olden Times of June 2021 when the show’s script commitment was leaked, myself and a few others on Tumblr tossed around the idea of “Omg what if they make John queer, he’s in a relationship with another guy, and then heaven forces them apart because he has to be with Mary.”

And that wasn’t out of a desire to just have a slash ship. Those happen regardless, all the time, with little to no warning and little to no reason sometimes. Shipping happens. Shipping doesn’t have to be canon, doesn’t really have to make sense, and is a personal thing between you and your AO3 account. 

From my perspective, I had been wondering if they’d do it simply because the meta symbolism comparison — whatever — would be so great for Destiel and that ship’s journey. 

And, I still stand by that, and if anything, even more so now that I’ve had more time to think about it and see the characters on my screen. 

While watching 1x04 of The Winchesters, Masters of War, even mid-episode, Twitter and Tumblr and likely your Discord servers were all ablaze with “What was that look that John just gave Carlos in that uniform? Millie? What?” and especially after this tweet:

Just gonna do one of these while I’m at it: 

Anyway —

But for me, that wasn’t the only moment my brain starting firing when it came to the possibility of John and Carlos. 

First of all, since we know where John and Mary are eventually going to end up, this show can’t hurt me. I’m already expecting to be hurt. It’s not queerbaiting, it’s not anything like that. Also, especially now, very much not queerbaiting. Coding is not baiting. But regardless, I had gone into this show fully expecting to just start shipping everyone for everyone just because why not?

But after 1x04 I legitimately will be paying more attention to John/Carlos. 

For me, the most interesting thing about Destiel was that it kinda was born organically. Cas wasn’t meant to be a character that stuck around but the chemistry was too good to get rid of him, and the story just made sense with him there tbh. It was over the years and years that these two were on screen together in which it went from “Yay, a slash ship that’s not with his brother!” to “Oh my God are they going to make this canon? It makes the most sense!” 

The thing with Destiel is that since it was organic, it was born outside of the narrative. Cas was the first one to “make it up as we go,” he exists outside the narrative. 

The whole thing when it comes to Chuck Won theory for me is that Cas is a threat to Chuck because he exists outside of the narrative and kept trying to get Dean to go along with him — subconciously of course lol. [Side note, this is why I don’t believe Cas is in heaven, because if indeed Chuck won, Cas wouldn’t be there. Cas is ‘real’, he’s ‘truth’]. 

Destiel is a pairing, a love story, outside of the actual story while directly influencing the narrative that Chuck is trying to dole out to us. 

It was a brat, the suits/Chuck couldn’t control it, and once it started rolling down the hill, no one could stop it. 

Destiel was the character pairing that broke the narrative. 

Now, when it comes to The Winchesters, we have a bit of a thing going on here don’t we? We have four characers: Two young women, two young men. This is actually prime fodder for a shipping free for all. 

Carlos already expressed his once crush on Mary, Latika [to me at least] is kind of crushing on John, and John and Mary, we know, wind up together regardless. 

However — John and Mary are the narrative. That’s The Plan TM. That’s heaven’s outcome, that’s Chuck’s outcome, that’s the thing that needs to happen for the story to play out how they want it to. John and Mary don’t have a choice in this. 

But, they both still need a relationship outside of the narrative for contrast. 

The thing with Supernatural is that we never had Sam or Dean have ‘narrative compliant’ relationships. There was no need to have them hook up with someone to make children who are destined to bring about the apocalypse or whatever. That was all on them. That was supposed to end with Sam and Dean. 

But The Winchesters has a narrative couple, even if they don’t know it yet. For me, John and Mary still seem like just friends, they all do really, and while sometimes they’ll have talks in the van or heartfelt speeches to each other already with piano music softly playing overhead — it still doesn’t feel like romance. If anything, in 1x03 with John’s words about Mary and having to save her, it felt more like we’re inching more towards brother co-dependency than not. 

Since we have a narrative couple, and we already know what that is, we need a non-narrative couple. We need John and Mary to seek relationships with others, and probably get a little farther with it than just one date. We need something outside of the narrative that’s threatening to also take John and Mary along as well. John and Mary need their Cas, because they certainnly aren’t Dean and Cas to each other. 

“But Jen, why not just have John with Latika?” 

Because I said so! No, just kidding, because Carlos makes more sense to me in this case. 

It’s been clear to a lot of us watching that Carlos really captures the attitude and spirit of early seasons Dean. A little over confident, likely compensating for something. Withholding emotional stuff, maybe a little cavelier in his love life, and hell we even got a “why does paper even beat a rock” reference in 1x04. 

But in 1x04, it feels like Carlos was also set up with Cas parallels. 

Carlos was in the Navy, he was in the service, just like John. Dean and Cas were also ordered basically to “fight” by their fathers, and were essentially soldiers of their own corners of the narrative. 

But, Carlos isn’t a soldier. He’s a medic. He’s a healer. First thing I thought of was “Oh, Cas healed people and Dean all the time.” That’s one of the things I associate with Cas a lot is just healing, both physical wounds and emotional ones. 

I find it interestingly fasincating that Carlos was put in contrast to John like this. Dean and Cas to me were on the same level whereas Carlos felt like almost the polar opposite to John. He didn’t illegally sign up for the war while underaged, he wasn’t really looking for a fight, and he did none of the fighting but instead helped those who were wounded in the fighting. Whereas John entered the war underaged, was a Marine, and likely saw so many atrocities unfold before him including the death of his friend Murphy. 

The Destiel parallels didn’t end there for me. 

It seems like we’re test driving John with the different characters. He’s with Mary, alone. Then he’s with Latika, alone. And now he’s with Carlos for most of the episode, alone. So it feels like it’s almost like I’m watching The Bachelor lol. You have the winner who was engineered by producers to be the pick at the end of the competition [Mary], the one who actually was in it to find love with the Bachelor [Latika] and the one that the Bachelor actually fell in love with [Carlos]. 

[I’ve never seen this show lmao I’m actually modeling this off of Flavor Of Love but shh don’t tell anyone]

Obviously, my saying John is in love with Carlos is literally just me saying that. Literally no proof of that right now. I’m just saying if we’re going to throw some tropes in there, that’s where I’d slot him in. 

So getting back to Destiel parallels — I found the jungle space that John and Carlos wound up in so interesting. It really reminded me of Purgaytory. Yes I’m spelling it that way. 

When Carlos stepped on the mine and said John’s name like that, like Murphy did but also just like that, idk. Struck something in me. But I also found it interesting that he was in there at all. All the other people that this god killed were on their own. But now it’s both Carlos and John, and the god is using Carlos to try and like, convince John to do what it wants John to do. 

Obviously, we know that despite his claims otherwise, John did wind up doing what the god wanted him to do and did in fact kinda give into his inner demons, which we saw play out the entire episode as John struggled hard. 

For me, John needs someone who’s going to tempt him away from the narrative, away from going down this bad path of running instead of confronting his inner demons, and away from the narrative pairing that will eventually be with Mary. He needs someone who will help steer him away from all of this, because the narrative has to have something to rip away from him. And progress would be that thing that the narrative strips away. 

And to me, yes I wouldn’t mind it being Latika either but I’m aligning her more with Mary at the moment. So for me, it’d be Carlos. Another ‘brother in arms’ [see what I did there], someone who does understand the trauma of seeing what he saw, and experienced more or less what he experienced. Someone who is that beacon of hope and light [even though I’m sure Carlos has his own issues obviously] that would make John want to confront his issues intead of run from them. 

So, when I see fun Destiel parallels to John and Carlos I like them, but I’m also thinking about the meta narrative implications of this. A queer ship, for outside of the narrative, that will wind up getting the axe in order to serve the narrative. Because isn’t that what happened with Destiel, and Dean’s right to reciprocate being taken away from him [literally. the final monsters ripped people’s tongues out and he never said Cas’ name after that phone call in 15x19]. 

To mark a full tragedy and degradation of John Winchester, it’d be great to me anyway if they do the same with him. 

Now —

I know post-episode there were some loud dissenters and those who aren’t happy about this concept that John could be queer, especially if it’s more upfront about it than Dean ever truly got a chance to do. 

And for that, I understand, however I’m choosing to view this as a good thing because if they can slap on as many callbacks to Destiel as they can with these two, but knowing that with these two it’s going to fail while with Destiel more or less succeeded*, I’m choosing to call a win a win. I also don’t believe symbolism, meta, and story for The Winchesters should be sacrificed because of decisions made for a separate show that began in 2005 and tried its hardest to deliver undeniably queer Dean in its 15 year long run. 

*Dean never go to say I Love You back, however I’m a continuation believer, and I also think the metaphorical silence was pretty loud.

A lot of folks choose to see adult John as homophobic, a headcanon/fanon trait that I can 100% understand where folks come from. However it’s not canon that he is, and it’s never been implied in the show either. Therefore, I feel like that point of debate is one I don’t really take all that seriously, because it’s someone’s personal reading of a character, and not tangible canon. 

A queer John Winchester would I think give us the chance to add more fuel to the Destiel fire, while also giving us the chance to grieve a love story that could have been, and grieve a person that John could have been instead of the one that he became. Queer people aren’t always good, kind, reasonable, and understanding. Sometimes they can, indeed, grow into being terrible people. 

The Winchesters is ultimately a tragedy. No one is going to win at the end of the day. It’s like watching a run away train and being unable to stop the characters from making the choices that we know will lead them not to safety but to mortal danger. 

But if they can give us peeks into what could have been, that’ll make it so much more tragic in a way that really resonates with us. 

[shirtlesssammy]

Missing Mothers

If Supernatural taught us anything, it’s that it all fell apart when Mary died. (Supernatural also taught us that shotgun shuts their cakehole, but that’s beside the point.) In this week’s episode, John confesses that he can’t keep hunting without Mary - “None of this works without Mary.” It’s foreshadowing, sure, but we’re also metaphorically diving into the missing pieces of Mary we never got in the series. YEAH you heard me - even with all of season 12-14! We realize that we never heard about her hopes and dreams, and we’re excited to learn about them!

This week, we focus on children separated from their mothers, from the cold open to Lata’s dead-but-not-actually-dead mother. (Mary’s mother is?? Somewhere??) The missing parent is such a strong theme in The Winchesters, but we have a stronger laser focus on the kids finding themselves - finding their own strength - without their parent. 

The kids in the episode spend days alone while their mother is on the road, looked after occasionally by Mary. In an aside to John, Mary remarks that they act older than their age because of this. Mary, who never was a normal kid, focuses in on this ebbing-of-childhood theme to bond with the kids, and ultimately save them. She saves her own self by starting to explore who she is - or who she wants to be. 

The complete Mary is missing from Supernatural, The Winchesters points out to us. And it’s time to learn more.

Boris: *cough, cough, and we learn more about Dean as well*

[drsilverfish]

The Winchesters 1x06

I can’t stop thinking about the fact Narrator-Dean, who explicitly told us he was picking the music, picked Leonard Cohen’s “Joan of Arc” for the funeral in 1x06 Art of Dying.

Joan of Arc, the historical character, claimed to have been inspired by visions from the Archangel Michael (Dean of course having been “designed” as Michael’s vessel):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc#/media/File:Joan_of_Arc_miniature_graded.jpg 

And there’s a Michael fighting Lucifer statue in the set-dressing narrative of the episode!

This beautiful Cohen song is about a warrior who didn’t get to hold a lover before she was burned at the stake.

I mean, for anyone who felt that way about Dean’s death (and I did, in both senses, the lover part and the burning at the stake part)... 

I just have this feeling that Robbie Thompson has decided to permeate The Winchesters, in every way, including the golden light frequently used in the cinematography, with the deepest sense of nostalgia, longing and regret, yet somehow, also infused with a profound feelng of Dean’s loving sacred heart, in his role as Holy Ghost Narrator.

It took me a while to open my own heart to The Winchesters, because of the pain of the Supernatural ending, but it feels like a gift, as if Robbie is on his knees in the subtext, like Dean in Beren’s episode SPN 15x09 The Trap, praying, “I hope you can hear me, I hope you can hear me.” 

[torturedpoetemotions]

Also it's such a small thing but I am begging people to stop complaining about Mary having straightened hair in the pilot.

Farrah Fawcett hair was not the only style popular in the 70s, and in fact didn't really become this huge phenomenon until the mid-70s, several years after the show takes place. As much as I love 19yo Mary's look in season 4 of SPN, it actually makes very little sense for her to have full-on Farrah hair at that point.

Farrah first began to evolve toward that hairstyle in 1973, and it wasn't until 1976 that the fully feathered curls swept back away from the face that we know today as "Farrah hair" became her signature look.

The Winchesters season 1 is set in 1972. In the early 70s, long straight hair was very much in style for young women. I actually remember my grandmother telling me about flat-ironing her hair with an actual iron when she was a teenager around that time. I have pictures of her from the early 70s wearing hair just like Mary's.

It would arguably be a bit more fashion-forward if Mary had blunt or wispy bangs, or some shaggy layers, but at this point in her life she's still pretty immersed in hunting, and she's also from a fairly small, semi-rural area where change is slow to come and there's actually a fair bit of pressure on young girls NOT to change with the trends (my grandma was FORBIDDEN from getting Farrah hair in the late 70s, one of the few times she outright rebelled). So being a little behind the latest cutting-edge hair trends makes sense. As does her choker necklace, which while it was a 90s trend, yes, was a late 60s/early 70s trend first.

Which is something else people tend to forget: a LOT of what we think of as late 90s/early 00s alternative fashion was actually ripped right off from the late 60s and early 70s. Including that very flat-ironed hair.

[charcubed]

They literally mentioned Swan Song (peace or freedom?) in the episode where Fucked Up Jack Who Might Actually Be Chuck semi-threateningly told Dean to get around to the part of the song that says “there’ll be peace when you are done.”

In contrast to the whole prequel show where Dean, as narrator in control, has been picking the music.

Bitch.

I remain on my bullshit (@chuckwon).

[chuckwon]

I’m absolutely obsessed with how they chose to have Jack still feel “Off” in The Winchesters, and as a result even more people are now noticing or taking a second look at the initial fuckery.

The spnwin finale / Dean’s narration is set within the context of 15x20, but Jack wasn’t even shown in 15x20. Jack was last shown to us 15x19, and we saw that he had very Fucked Up vibes after ostensibly absorbing Chuck’s power. Before that, we also saw that Chuck orchestrated Jack’s sacrifice throughout the season because it’s there if you look for it.

But the end of 15x19 is a fairly quick scene with little examination. And then in 15x20 we were TOLD (not shown) that Jack fixed Heaven, that all is great in that regard, and that Cas is back (🤔). So y’know, 15x20 is like… Dean’s death obviously fucking sucks, but cosmologically things are fine now at least! Right? Sure.

So plenty of people took what 15x20 told us about Heaven at face value, leaned into that as the final say, and let it supersede what 15x19 showed in regards to Jack. Even within fandom… I find that Jack being “new God” isn’t always seen as a vital element that needs fixing. (To be clear: I say this with no judgement because everyone had to process or fix the finale however they could 😵‍💫)

So in The Winchesters finale, they could have leaned into the implied veneer from 15x20 that Jack being new God is totally fine and then showed us that, aligning with what we’d been told. They could have had Jack act like his normal self again to really cement that things are good on that front, and that wouldn’t have necessarily been incompatible with how Dean is grieving and his story isn’t over. Hell, they could have avoided including Jack at all since he’s not in 15x20!

INSTEAD..… Instead they not only included Jack but also said “we’re gonna give you a longer look at how fucked up Jack seems.” They CHOSE to leave that door open and make Jack’s vibes consistent with 15x19 in a way that’s thrown the issues with him more into the spotlight, while mentioning how Chuck had more fail safes and plans than anyone knew. And what primary purpose or function did Jack serve in the episode? Telling Dean to stop meddling as if he has freedom and to get back to his ending of peace. That’s literally why he shows up.

This makes the Chuck won and finale mirroring throughout spnwin feel more pointed and I can’t wait to dissect it.

I love it!!!!!!! I LOVE that the fuckery is still afoot, and that the potential for making this allegory about censorship into a core plot is still in play for a sequel 👁👁 I AM OBSESSED

[dotthings]

They really really want me feral on the Destiel parallels don't they.

People going mad when they think they're about to die so they do crazy things thinking they won't have to deal with the consequences but sometimes it's not just that. Sometimes people speak their truths with joy in their heart, and act on feelings they've had for some time, and they would like to have the consequences, please.

Like...a kiss in this case.

And Mary needs time. To process that.

Or, say, a love confession speech, and it sounds like a goodbye. And Dean needs time and can't speak what's in his heart. Dean needs time. To process that.

This is more than just the literary device of paralleling and mirrors for giving a story texture. In part, John and Mary is doing commentary on Dean and Cas's story. It's writing character analysis unpacking Destiel.

I'm going to ask Destiel shippers to look past specifics, and caught in thinking that because John and Mary aren't so well loved in fandom, and John's problems, and Mary's problems, that it's bad for Destiel to be paralleled to John x Mary. These things are not used as perfect one to one correlations. The point is that it's a romantic love story and there are some mirroring from the characters and it's not an insult. It's people. It's love. It's two beings who fell in love. John and Mary were not magically roofied into caring. And the love story of Dean's parents and his own love story with Cas have similarities.

[shallowseeker]

All right. I got halfway through the SPNwin pilot over at @spnwin-reader. It's more like...gonna be a rando-sketch book of things I notice as I go, rapid-fire and proooobably nonsensical, whoops.

If anything sticks, I'll turn it into a "real meta" with better images.

For now, though. <3 Rando.

[angelsdean]

i know the people who don't wanna hear it and just wanna stay bitter aren't going to care but everything about the akrida queen / joan was a pretty clear parallel to DEAN. she was literally his dark mirror. a hunter who lost everything, who's whole life was torn apart by monsters, who felt cheated out of having a life of her own, separate from the "cause" of saving people, hunting things. she even talked about how it was always one apocalypse after the other. so, she got power-hungry. tried to change her story, got sealed away in another dimension (hello empty parallels) to contain her, then found the akrida and used them to help her in her quest to destroy humanity. she's literally a warning of which way dean's story could have gone. and the thing that broke her? the thing that started her whole revenge quest: losing her parents, her brother, and "her william" aka her LOVE. and what did dean lose? he lost his parents / family (bobby). he lost his brother (bc dean died first so, he lost so many more yrs they could've had together). AND he lost cas. cas who's always been in a category of his own. "his cas." he lost his love. that parallel was SO LOUD to me and also in true prequel fashion of using the winchesters characters to mirror and parallel and allude to DEAN and HIS story. that was our nod to cas and frankly? i'm happy for it because once again (like the cain/colette parallels and so many others) cas is being paralleled at the love interest to dean's mirror !!

[wigglebox]

millie in 1x02 of the winchesters: expresses regret not telling henry she loved him after a fight before he disappeared forever, which was one of their rules

jackles at vancon22: “[...] because I lost Cas, but also because I didn't - I didn't say anything - I didn't give him anything.  And- what I had in my head was, 'I should have said "I love you too"